Hello Young Men: A Vasectomy Is One Thousand Times Less Expensive Than Children

by Joe Zamboni on July 18, 2013

Two weeks ago I attended the marriage ceremony of a clueless 26-year-old man, a nice enough guy full of good intentions, but also a guy living in a romantic fantasy world about what he had just gotten himself into financially. Little did he know that, on average, about 91% of his lifetime after-tax income was going to go to his wife (or wives) and children, not to himself. That percentage is not a typo. Stay with me as I go through a series of back-of-the-envelope calculations using publicly available statistics to come up with this astounding percentage. The bottom line of the calculations (which you can easily enough do on your own to confirm everything claimed here): fathers in America today are financial slaves.

It’s essential that young American men see the long-run big picture. Yet many of them look only at the immediate short-term, in part because they’re living a paycheck-to-paycheck existence, just barely making it financially. The big picture shows that if they get married and have kids, they probably won’t have any significant life of their own. Beyond childcare, domestic chores, and other family matters, most of their waking life will then be devoted to making money to support the family. Young men need to seriously consider “the snip” (vasectomy), which, according to these calculations, is more than 1000 times less expensive than getting married and having kids. Again that is not a typo. Far too few young men are taking advantage of this reliable birth control option before they are surprised to hear that the girlfriend or fiancé is expecting a young one. In this area, planning ahead can make a hell of a difference.

The following calculations also reveal that feminist chants about “deadbeat dads” are unwarranted and manipulative attempts to get men to shut-up and get back to work. American fathers are desperately trying to meet their financial obligations, and these financial obligations are oppressive, unreasonable, and totally unsustainable. It is no wonder that the courts have resorted to cruel and unusual punishment such as throwing fathers in jail for, yanking driver’s licenses for, and revoking professional licenses for, not being able to pay child support obligations. Such heavy-duty forceful maneuvers are required in an attempt to get men to comply with the provider role, which when viewed from an objective lifetime financial perspective, doesn’t look like an attractive way to go.

This article was born out of my concern for the welfare of several heterosexual twenty-something men that I know, men who are surprisingly cavalier and relaxed about marriage and kids. Many of these guys accept these major life choices simply as part of being a man, and they expect one or both of the choices will be something they will do at some point in the future. The problem is that these guys, for the most part, don’t seriously investigate what’s involved, and that means that there will be big-time trouble later on. Marriage and children in America today are entirely different than they were just fifty years ago; they are now dangerously rigged games stacked against men. This stacked deck exists on many levels, but to keep this article relatively brief, I will focus only on the financial implications of marriage and children.

OK, let’s get into the numbers. The average number of children per family, according to the 2010 US Census is 2.11 (Note 1). The total cost of raising a child, through age 17, in the US is now $235,000 (Note 2). Multiply both of these figures and you get $495,850, which is the average cost to raise children to age 17 in America today. Note that this cost is overwhelmingly paid by men; it is the father’s traditional and legally-enforced role to be the provider. If you make a good salary, the cost to raise children will go up significantly above this average, because the alimony and child support payments that the courts determine are not based on actual costs. Instead they are based on the father’s total salary or self-employment income. But to reveal the plight of the average American father, for the rest of this analysis, I will stick only with averages.

Next let’s look at the other costs of having children, and providing for them beyond age 17. The average per year college costs paid by parents in America today is $8,752 (Note 3). It now takes an average of 4.5 years to get a bachelor’s degree (Note 4). Multiplying these two figures, in conjunction with 2.11 kids on average, we see that the total average cost to parents to put their kids through college is now $83,100. Yes of course, some kids don’t go to college. Consider that some other kids get advanced degrees. Please remember that this is a rough back-of-the -envelope analysis, so bear with me, and just go with the overall conclusion, and don’t dismiss the analysis just because you don’t like a simplifying assumption that I have made.

The average move-out age of children these days is 22, and the chances that they will thereafter move back into their parents’ house is 60% (Note 5). The calculations in my analysis don’t include the extra room and board for those children who don’t immediately set up their own households. Whatever objections you might have about all kids going to college, in response to the assumption I made in the prior paragraph, might be addressed by saying that those who don’t go to college will generally have a harder time getting jobs, and the latter kids will likely stick around the house for a while longer. So let’s include the additional stick-around-the-house costs in the go-to-college costs mentioned in the prior paragraph.

The average costs employed in this analysis also don’t illuminate the potentially very high costs associated with having a child who has special needs, such as an autistic child. This analysis is just about the average costs, not the probabilities of very high costs associated with child rearing. The chances of very high costs should nonetheless be a part of every young man’s marriage and children deliberations.

So far, we have not assumed that the man got married. It gets worse if he gets married. Here, he simply had children and had to pay child support. The average unmarried father is looking at a total of $578,950 ($495,850 plus $83,100) in payments over the course of his lifetime, which might instead completely pay for a very nice house somewhere. Perhaps it would be better for young guys to be a good uncle to their sister’s kids, or maybe be a devoted Big Brother? Sure you may like kids, but do you really need your own? The real eye-opener is how this total child support figure compares to average incomes for men in America today.

To get a ballpark sense of how difficult it will be for an average man to meet his child support payments, whether or not he is married, consider that the average income per household in the US is now $46,326 per year (Note 6). If one considers all types of taxes (income, sales, property, etc.), the total burden of taxes in America today is 59.70% of earned income (Note 7). Multiply these two numbers and you get the average after-tax disposable income, specifically $18,669. I am making an assumption that the man is making most of the income in the household, an assumption that is born out by the fact that men far and away make most of the money in America today.

Taking the total payments for raising children ($578,950), and dividing that by 25 (the average age when a child leaves the house (22), plus three years to take into consideration more than one child), we see that the out-of-pocket cost of having children is $23,158 per year. So the cost of paying for children ($23,158), on the average, exceeds the average disposable annual income ($18,669). No wonder a very large percentage of parents go into debt just to pay for their children and their children’s education. No wonder there are so many men sweating the payment of child support.

When a man gets married, the story gets even worse. The average cost of a wedding these days is $28,000 (Note 8), and 62% of couples now pay for their own weddings (Note 9). I am not including the cost of dates, vacations, and the like which men are generally expected to pay. As a way to capture and summarize those courting costs, I figure that the man will pay for the entire wedding. The average cost of a diamond engagement ring in the US is now $3,500 (Note 10) and again the man pays for that. The average cost of a honeymoon is now $4,466 (Note 11) and I am assuming that the man pays for that too. Add these three numbers and we get the total average cost of going through with a wedding, assuming that the guy will pay, which is the traditional and often expected way these days (feminist claims of equality notwithstanding). That total amount is some $35,966.

We should increase this cost of marriage by the average total alimony paid, which is $7,209. This last number is arrived at by multiplying the average annual alimony payment of $30,000 (Note 12), by the number of cases in which alimony is paid, some 9% of cases (Note 13), by the average number of years for which alimony is paid, in America 2.67 years (Note 14). So the total average cost of getting married is then increased to a total of $43,175 ($35,966 plus $7,209). The average number of years that a marriage lasts is eight years, so if you’re having kids these days, chances are that you’re going to get a divorce at some point (Note 15).

So if you add the three total numbers from above, specifically the average cost to raise children to age 17 ($495,850), plus the average cost to send your children to college ($83,100), plus the total average cost of marriage and alimony ($43,175), you get a grand total of $622,125. Note that this does not include the cost to support your wife while married, including housing, food, clothes, etc. You could say this grand total is a rough overall total cost of having children in a marriage, for the average American guy.

These numbers are not exact, and they shouldn’t be expected to be precise, because this is simply a back-of-the-envelope informal analysis. If you want totally statistically justifiable numbers, be my guest and go spend several hundred thousand dollars to perform a formal academic study. I wonder why no such study of men has ever been done — at least I can find no such study on the Internet. Plenty of similar studies have been done about women — but why are there none for men? Perhaps the powers that be (including feminist politicians like Obama) want to keep men in their place of financial slavery? Could it be that these powers don’t want men to know the truth about the incredible financial burden that they are expected to carry?

Let’s now look at the total cost of a vasectomy done on an outpatient basis, which is about $600 (Note 17). Many such operations can be found for less money. No, “the snip” is not generally paid for by health insurance. In keeping with my comments above, even though many birth control options for women are paid for via health insurance, the system evidently does not want men to step out of their traditional provider role, it wants them to continue to be financial slaves.

So how does this cost for a vasectomy compare with the total average cost of marriage and children ($622,125)? It’s over 1000 times less expensive. This reliable male birth control option starts to really look attractive to men when you consider the average lifetime gross earnings of male college graduates (Note 16), which is $1,699,000. If we convert this figure into disposable income, using the total tax burden mentioned above (Note 7), we get a lifetime sum of earnings for male college graduates after taxes of $684,697. I am making a very conservative assumption that all fathers have a college degree here, and the actual situations of those men who don’t have a bachelor’s degree is going to therefore be much worse than is calculated below.

That means that over a father’s lifetime, the percentage of his after-tax income that will be devoted to his wife and children will be 91% ($622,125/$684,697). Said a bit differently: many if not most fathers in America today will not get to have their own lives. If you are going to go ahead with the marriage and kids deal, whatever it was that you thought you wanted to do with your life, unless it was being a provider and a father, forget it. If you’re having a wife and children, you are going to be totally focused on supporting them. That dream about climbing a mountain in Asia, or learning how to fly an ultra-light airplane, or becoming a hobby farmer of a rare strain of orchids, forget it. Unless these things bring in a lot of money, or unless you’re exceedingly successful at your work, they’re not going to happen. If you’re an average married father, you’re going to be in the provider saddle for most of, if not all of, your working life.

(1) http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2012/12/05/more-thoughts-on-the-illusion-of-declining-birth-rates/
(2) http://elitedaily.com/news/world/study-average-cost-raising-child-235000/
(3) http://www.marketwatch.com/story/families-dig-deep-cut-costs-to-pay-for-college-2010-08-10
(4) http://completionarch.collegeboard.org/completion/time-to-degree/average-time-to-certificate-an-associate-degree-or-bachelors-degree-us
(5) http://www.cafemom.com/journals/read/275953/Does_anyone_else_ever_feel_this_way
(6) http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-make-breaking-down-the-us-household-income-numbers/
(7) http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-individual-income-tax-data-0
(8) http://www.divorceroom.com/divorce-settlement/average-divorce-settlements.html
(9) http://realsizebride.com/blog/what-does-the-average-honeymoon-cost/
(10) http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/03/12/engagement-ring-how-to-save-on-diamonds/
(11) http://realsizebride.com/blog/what-does-the-average-honeymoon-cost/
(12) http://www.ask.com/question/average-alimony-payments
(13) http://news.ufl.edu/2001/05/21/alimony/
(14) http://www.tmc-law.net/divorce-and-spousal-support-or-alimony/
(15) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce
(16) http://www.uploadexperience.com/statistics.htm
(17) http://www.vasectomyresource.com/Average-Cost-of-Vasectomy-Depends-on-Several-Factors.html

{ 114 comments… read them below or add one }

Sam July 18, 2013 at 20:03

Why should a man injure himself, castrate himself, efface his natural sexual identity and limit his biological function to fit some external condition or agenda ?

Let women castrate, make barren or render themselves biological misfits and duds if they choose, but that is not mans problem.

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El Bastardo July 18, 2013 at 20:21

True. Yet it would all be better if women made good on their claims of wanting to work, and family court was stripped of its function as a proprietor of our wealth to the state and our unscrupulous exes-to-be.

I don’t care how loud you shout it, the powers that be will never let this out the bag, and businesses like jewelers for example have every reason to ensure that the DV industry, and divorce industries stay intact. Not to mention 90% of businesses which rely exclusively on the wymmins spending most if not all of men’s discretionary spending as well as their own.

I tell you the truth, following the numbers leads you right to the truth. And yes, the truth hurts.

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Nemo July 18, 2013 at 20:27

There’s something else that young men should keep in mind.

My father married back in the 1960s, just before “no fault” divorce became commonplace. It may seem odd today, but back then a divorcing couple had to show a plausible reason for the divorce. They had to provide evidence to a judge. He would then examine the evidence and decide if a divorce was justified under the law. Sometimes the judge even denied the divorce! It was similar to an actual trial rather than an expensive rubber-stamping of the death certificate of a marriage.

By the time he divorced, about 35 years later, things had changed to more or less what they are today, where the divorce is on autopilot. The husband is essentially automatically found guilty and is fined 40% of his post-tax income for the rest of his life.

The point is that virtually EVERY change in the laws regarding heterosexual men in relationships has made things WORSE for those men for the past 50 years. EVERY change. And there have been quite a few changes.

Things are STILL getting worse: Obama just added a cruel twist to Title IX that sets up “kangaroo courts” on college campuses for the explicit purpose of ensuring that more men are expelled for sexual assault. They have even gone so far as to change the rules so that it’s OK if 49 out of 100 men who are expelled are innocent. Sounds a lot like the “feminist jurisprudence” that turned divorce court into a rubber-stamp.

You might very well enter a marriage today and divorce in 20 or 30 years and find that you must work at a dangerous and dreadful job so that you can pay alimony and child support. Think I’m joking? Ask women if they think that men who owe back child support should be sent to work in salt mines or coal mines, or drafted into the military against their will. Most will think it’s a great idea.

As good jobs become even more scarce, and women demand a minimum of 50% of all of the good jobs (STEM subjects, corporate board seats, etc.), then what type of jobs will be left for the men? Only the worst ones. If men refuse to work, then they’ll either be sent to prison or to work camps to do the nastiest jobs.

Sound like the Soviet Union’s GULAG system? Damned straight. That is where we are going. Most of the pieces of the puzzle are there. Assemble the jigsaw puzzle and look at the big picture. You’ll see your face – behind bars or barbed wire. Right where feminists think that all men belong.

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Justinian July 18, 2013 at 20:38

Why should a man injure himself, castrate himself, efface his natural sexual identity and limit his biological function to fit some external condition or agenda ?

Its all part of the mental pathology of MGTOW.

Surrender your birthrights in order to avoid the hassle of overthrowing a corrupt system.

You may not be interested in the system, but it sure is interested in you. They won’t let you go your own way and since MGTOWs have been so vocal about not fighting for anything, the government knows it has nothing to fear from you.

You think the system will go on surviving off the tax income of the top 10%…….well it can’t pay its bills relying only on that revenue source. The taxes of the future will be aimed at the middle and lower end of the scale. Inflation and VAT combined with discounts for the favored class (single mothers) is what is coming. If that fails then they can resort to forced labor on stubborn MGTOW like what Ukraine is now starting to do.

Fight and you may die or end up in prison.

Run away and the system will eventually corner you when you are completely powerless and every last legal right is gone.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 38 Thumb down 47
Jerry July 18, 2013 at 21:28

No way in hell will I get a vasectomy!

Being circumcised against my will and living with the resulting permanent life-long disfigurement and lack of sexual sensation has been horrible. I see no need to make it worse.

In addition, I am not at all convinced that vasectomies are safe. A colleague of mine got one, and immediately started suffering from a several rare auto-immune disorders, including a neurological problem. When your body makes anti-bodies to its own sperm, all kinds of problems arise.

There are safer and less disfiguring forms of birth control out there.

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Wobbegong July 18, 2013 at 22:23

Only 1000 times less expensive? Try a million! :-)

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geographybeefinalisthimself July 18, 2013 at 22:50

Even if a man, married or not, gets a vasectomy, he will still be fair game for a false rape accusation, whether it be a marital false rape accusation or a premarital false rape accusation.

I fail to see how not having sex at all is not a smarter choice.

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ZBT July 18, 2013 at 23:18

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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Joe Zamboni July 18, 2013 at 23:19

@ Jerry – Fair enough — don’t get a vasectomy if you prefer. The reason I included a discussion of vasectomies here was just to provide a reference point against which to compare the high cost of having children. The point of this article is not to sell you on getting a vasectomy. Abstinence and consistently using a condom may be viable replacements. The point of the article is that young American men are not adequately informed about the very significant financial implications of having children. They should have this information before embarking on the adventure of being a father, so that they can make an informed decision. This article supports the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) philosophy, in that I believe men should be given a choice about what they want to do with their lives, not pushed blindly into being providers.

fmz July 18, 2013 at 23:29

Here, never married, no kids, fark all dating.
45yrs hence.
$3m assets, 3% after tax yield, no rent and dont work.
Lotsa free time.
Not snipped either, another $600 to be-low.

Go Your Way.
Under the radar.
Larf a lot.

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Brian July 18, 2013 at 23:56



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oddsock July 19, 2013 at 00:05


“Fight and you may die or end up in prison.

Run away and the system will eventually corner you when you are completely powerless and every last legal right is gone.”

Yeah come on guys “man up”. Get that yoke back around your neck. Hell you should even fight for the honour of having it and if you don’t, you might die or go to prison. It seems we are needed by other men to help pay for everything. Ooooh so many options to choose from!

Meh, I think I will just stay with MGTOW, if you don’t mind?

Ha ha ha “when you are completely powerless and every last legal right is gone.”

Justinian. Where you been hiding dude? Men don’t have things such as legal rights. They went many moons ago. YOU have obligations fear and guilt.

Sorry, I am still laughing at your programming and conditioning . Its fascinating to see it in the cold light of honest observation.

No offence.

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oddsock July 19, 2013 at 00:13


“Here, never married, no kids, fark all dating.
45yrs hence.
$3m assets, 3% after tax yield, no rent and dont work.
Lotsa free time.
Not snipped either, another $600 to be-low.”


How do you feel about same sex marriage? I have developed a sudden and deep attraction to you. I can’t explain why, its a mystery.

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oddsock July 19, 2013 at 00:25


“This is an area where a man can really lead. Set a reasonable budget (yes, even for the wedding), stick to it, and insist your wife follow it as well. Your wife will respect you more for it, even if she pouts about it.”

Just curious, a question if I may ? What happens if your wife doesn’t respect you for it, pouts and then decides to hump the best man or your neighbour and has you thrown in jail on a false DV charge just for the fun of it.

Do you think when setting this reasonable budget a man should make allowances for things like lawyers fees DNA testing and bail etc ?

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greyghost July 19, 2013 at 00:33

Take a look at this http://sartikaherbal.com/home/extract-herbal/gandarusa-justicia-gendarussa?vmcchk=1

The real tax base will be childless the college educated career women. with no men and no hostages they will have to work or live as poor bag ladies.
MGTOW combined with the PUA will make the most childless spinsters for uncle sam to fleece. A child less woman is treated like a poor black person. They will always vote feminism or liberal (democrat) so no need to make special taxes for men it will be the spinsters with the money and careers. Men will be ignored except for the men that involve themselves with women with LTR, marriage, cohabitating, or child birth. Those guys especially now are getting the double down on misandry. Any man that marries over the next 5 to 10 years in assured of divorce and maintenance payments for life.

MGTOW and the PUA will burn off the fertile and sexually attractive years off a female and jade her from tingling for a blue pill beta man. With the MGTOW leaving her high and dry when she decides to settle down and have a family at 35 give or take a few years. One more time if you missed it http://sartikaherbal.com/home/extract-herbal/gandarusa-justicia-gendarussa?vmcchk=1 Think of the power of the lie. Even a wife without a hostage is just a girlfriend. Teach a young man as a freshmen the re pill and get him on birth control and then he can freely be productive and PUA and age out when he is ready as a MGTOW type.
Just trying to add to what you have Joe.

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fmz July 19, 2013 at 00:41


Dont get married.

And hands off.


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Justinian July 19, 2013 at 01:37

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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oddsock July 19, 2013 at 02:02


Don’t you trust me ? I don’t care about money or where we live as long as we are happy. I am not like the others, I am different, I would never do anything to hurt you. Marriage is for life and I am a church goer and take the vows seriously and I hate this feminist thing. I am more than happy to stay home all day and wait for your return, my only desire is to take care of you.

Trust me, I am not like that, honest. Once I clear all my credit cards and other debts I will be able to pay for my own flight and don’t worry about my kids. I can arrange to dump them with someone else and they are nearly grown up now, in fact, all my child support and alimony will soon stop as they are almost adults now. Some are almost 21.

Love you forever, Oddsock xxx

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oddsock July 19, 2013 at 02:19



“You are rather dense. Im not asking you to marry the sluts, Im advocating something quite different. I wont get more specific than that. You sound like a typical pansified westerner who has no idea how much worse things can get if you offer no resistence”

Its good you vent your anger. Its what often happens when someone is force fed red pill.

By the way. I was not laughing at you. I was laughing at your conditioning. It can take a while to identify it and shake it off. An angry response is usually from our conditioning being unmasked for the first time.

Meanwhile. I will continue with passive but active resistance. MGTOW.

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bruno July 19, 2013 at 02:59

Great article Joe,
This simple and straightforward calculation should be mandatory information for high school boys.
But feminists and the government will never allow the truth to be known.
Because the fact that for women, marriage and children is all about financial profit, is the biggest taboo, the most holy of all secrets, that must be kept hidden at all cost.

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DCM July 19, 2013 at 03:18

Why the male pill is still unavailable.

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Noble Dragon July 19, 2013 at 05:34

Excellent article, Mr. Zamboni. Nicely done! Ignore anyone who quibbles over specific numbers. The overall thrust of your article, using rough numbers as an approximation, excellently demonstrates the massive cost to the average man for having a wife and kids. Bravo, sir. (And now you have me curious – since one can’t trust internet sites like Wikipedia, etc., I will search the academic research journals. While many of those are also loaded with feminist B.S., there may be some where the calculations were done the right way. I’ll let you know if I find anything.)

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Scottscobig July 19, 2013 at 06:38

Great article. Number 1.

While I agree that there is a lot of very effective and needed fathering the world needs from non-biological fathers, I would argue there are also some kids still waiting in heaven to come down; and that having them in the traditional way is still the best vehicle for raising kids into good adults.

Number 2. You may have guessed that it’s everlastingly too late for me. I’ve been married 20 years and have 4 kids. And I can confirm everything you’re saying. It’s truly shocking how little there is for the man in either marriage or fatherhood. Sure, there are those few brief moments here and there that inspire and uplift. But the rest is absolutely slavery; a peculiar type of slavery we choose for ourselves, initially. And then we choose to endure it for eternity. It really is hell on earth. What follows is a letter I just finished to my sons for their consumption when they’re adults; or sooner:

My Sons, Wean Thyselves

A baby in his first few months of life nurses directly on his mother’s milk. At a certain point, he stops nursing and transitions to cow’s milk or other foods; things that will aid in more growth. This is called weaning. Thought I’d just tell you instead of shouting, “Go look it up!”

The Lord would have you wean yourself from what can become, if you’re not really careful, an insatiable addiction. You should obey the Lord in faith that he loves you and wants what is best for you.

Since the above is a bit ambiguous, let me elaborate. My goal is not to supersede the Lord’s commandments. That would be to put the cart before the horse. I seek to elucidate the logic, the reasonableness of his commandments.

The desire, the passion from which I wish you to wean yourself is women; more specifically, sex. I’m not preaching homosexuality. Were those your tendencies, I’d be saying the same thing, perhaps more strongly, since there’s no outlet, like marriage, for that type of sexual activity, under the Lord’s commandments.

Most likely, the object of your desire will be women. This desire isn’t evil per se. But I caution you to bridle it as stringently as possible.

I’ve heretofore counseled you that your wife, when you marry, owes you all of the sex in the world if you’re an adequate provider. This ideal is only part of the story. I’ve said there’s only so much sex that can be had each day. Fine. But none of this will stop the unrighteous dominion your wife will be wont to exercise over you if you allow it. That is, if your desire for sex is such that you’re willing to trade your manhood, your right to preside for sex, she’ll dominate you in every way. Don’t be the guy that’s subservient and deferential to his wife. Learn to “be a sexual camel.” Put your wife on HER heels by exhibiting little to no interest in sex. Be affectionate; even ‘romantic.’ But don’t empower her by worshiping the ground on which she walks because of this be-all, end-all thing she gives you: sex. Bridle that passion! Unfortunately, “The Game” must be played after marriage just as it was played before marriage. If you’re utterly dependent on the sex she gives you, She has you. You’re hers. She owns you. Yours is a master and slave relationship and she’s not the slave.

In the garden, Eve made a covenant to obey Adam as he obeyed Father in heaven. That ancient covenant is still implicit. She’s to OBEY. Does that sound like the responsibility of a master to a slave?

And yet I can’t emphasize enough: You WILL be a slave to her, to sex, in general, if you allow it. All you have to do is do nothing and it will happen.

You see, women are a lot more like men than you’ve been led to believe. That is, they’re no more virtuous or charitable than we. They just have that reputation because their physical inferiority precludes them from acting more physically violent, as some men are known to do. What I mean is, anything you might think to say about the baser nature of men is absolutely true of women, too. I say these things to provide an antidote to the poison that’s been administered to you your whole life, principally at school (by the govt) and in the media. But everyone you know is so well indoctrinated in these lies about women’s superiority and men’s inferiority and has so fully accepted them that I’m likely to be the only dissenting voice. All I ask is that you consider what I’m trying to teach you, compare it to conventional ‘wisdom,’ search the scriptures and ponder and pray about it. I think you’ll see I’m rarely, if ever, far off. I’m not saying women are horrible per se. They have some powerful trump cards in their superior self-control of their sex urge. And they can grow a baby inside of their bodies. But in each and every other facet of existence, I’d bet on the average man over the average woman. In this day and age, I’d even rather see a single parent family be helmed by the father rather than the mother. Every other being, entity and organization on earth is mothering kids. What they really need is more fathering.

What I’m getting at is: If you married some woman and she would literally do anything- totally enslave herself to you for a dollar- let’s say each act your slave engages in at your behest costs you a dollar. The cost to a woman for acquiescing to sex is probably lower, but, let’s stick with this going price of a dollar for illustrative purposes. Imagine that. She’ll do anything; and at a pretty low cost to you. Wouldn’t that have a tendency to corrupt you? You’d have a tendency to get her to do ever more outrageous things because hey, it’s only a buck. Such is the corruption of the typical female. Our very nature causes us to treat slaves badly. In addition, the price, a dollar, would have a tendency to go down and she’d continually do more for less. It’s simple economics. You’d have absolute control of supply and she’d present an insatiable demand. It’s a relationship made in hell; slave and owner.

That’s what it is to be addicted to sex and be married. She controls supply. All you have is your helpless demand. I beg you to quell that demand while you’re young. Sex is so trivial; so overrated. It really is. There’s something that happens to the mind and memory of a man when he’s under sex’s spell. It’s the sun in his galaxy and he goes blind staring at it because his mind just can’t remember to look away. He can’t remember that there are myriads of concerns; of activities in which he could engage that would be exponentially more profitable to him. He just can’t remember any of them. And the typical woman lord’s it over him and uses sex as a weapon; as a whip to drive her slave. I echo the words of a father from The Book of Mormon to his sons, “O remember, remember.”

The game is HERS. She hold the cards. It’s as if she wants to arm wrestle you and she harbors some hope of victory. Ridiculous, right? Such is her superiority in this game; the game of sex. So, um, play the Game. But play it at a safe distance. Play it close to the chest. The Game is more than sex. Learn to play that part like a pro. Take sex off of the table. Likely, she’ll get around to asking for it. Acquiesce with indifference. Strive, even in the very throes of orgasm to appear to passively endure it. If you don’t, you betray yourself. She’ll see she still has you/owns you.

There’s a part of me that wants to tell you to avoid marriage and sex entirely; to graciously bow out and enjoy all life has to offer for the man independent of sex. That’s not the Lord’s way. And my faith in him is the only thing keeping me from telling you to run for the hills. Evidently, this horrifically painful experience of being a husband and father is good for you; much in the same way the atonement was good- terribly painful, but good. I believe it was even good for him that wrought it. Anyway, the Lord’s way seems to be ‘the way of pain,’ to borrow a line from Braveheart. We men must choose the way of pain, in life. Isaiah said, in reference to the savior “it pleased the lord to bruise him.” The only understandable worldly equivalent we have comes from weight lifting: no pain, no gain. Spiritual muscles; or, character muscles, if you like, are built by lifting the painful burdens the Lord would have a man lift. If, indeed, misery loves company, there’s this: it’s pretty hard to be a wife and mother, too. That childbirth thing looks pretty bad.

Anyway, the major difference is, you have no natural built in weapon to use against your wife. If you’re the sole breadwinner, there’s something in that if you do it well. But that’s nothing like her sexual weapon. It literally pales in comparison. And guess what, she can either go get a job or she can apply for state welfare, thereby completely negating any need for you and your services. Your equivalent side of that particular coin is masturbation or adultery, both of which are understandably frowned upon. Do you begin to see the value in playing the game with her and creating mystery and value for you in her mind to keep her interested; keep her guessing, doubting her value to you?

Yet, as I reread the preceding questions, I ask myself, why? What’s in it for me except, sex? And sex is a harmful drug to me and, like all harmful drugs, it causes me to cede control, independence and freedom to the drug or, more directly, to my wife. She’s the drug-pusher in this scenario. The assumption the man in love makes is that his wife won’t abuse his dependence. But they all do. They rule the roost with it. Doesn’t matter that I’m literally the rooster. She rules the roost. It’s a huge conundrum; maybe the hugest. Although the fatherhood thing is right up there. All I’ve got is the idea that we must delay gratification; that blessings will come.

You hold physical prowess over her. But that’s rightly held in check, just as her weaponization of sex SHOULD be held in check; and my physical prowess over you kids never was impressive to you as exercised by me, anyway. The world and Satan have completely shredded any respect for men, despite the inherent physical and economic power they have over their kids and wives. No one cares.

Yeah. No one cares. This is a point I’ve tried to make to you verbally. People are completely self-centered. You are, too. That’s okay. The real trick is to find what’s in your highest and best interest. You’ll find that it invariably involves service to others and obedience to the other commandments. Anyway, my point is, get over this notion that anyone, including your wife, really gives a flying fart about you. The Lord does. But there’s usually little instant gratification in that. No one else does. And no one realizes that serving you IS in his best interest. Your wife has no idea that that’s the key to you. Like all of us in our limited perspective, it’s just not on the radar. We’re too busy looking for those brief breaks from our troubles; just a small respite from the hell each endures on a daily basis. That’s why the temporary fix of TV, video games, movies, sports, sex, buying stuff, eating, etc. are so popular. Entertainment, pleasure is what we seek. And it’s not even really even temporarily that satisfying to us. Yet we keep doing it, hoping that THIS time it will be different. No, that’s not true joy. And it’s true joy that we seek. Joy: that elusive synonym of freedom, money, property and power. These are what we’re after in our ‘pursuit of happiness.’ And they’re only available through hard work- through service to others. It’s weird and annoying and that’s why no one does it. It just takes too long; it’s too hard. But my original point of this paragraph was just to tell you to stop expecting anyone to care, to ‘get’ you. No one understands you. No one will take the time and do the work in order to learn to understand you. You must be independent. And the Lord would have you turn to him in the frustrating pursuit of your independence. But I want to emphasize that turning to anyone else, expecting her to care the way you want her to care, will lead to nothing but more frustration. Like asking a turtle to fly.

I look forward to that perfect day when, form the other side of the veil, it becomes clear to me via explanation or restoration of memory, just why there are such differences between humans, not to mention between men and women. Why do I have this huge desire for sex and her desire is, what, a tenth of mine? All I’ve got for now is that in the eternal scheme of things, it will be good for me. Pain is good. Is anything more counter-intuitive?

So, go, my sons. Climb mountains. Conquer the earth. Forget about sex. Sex sucks. Literally, it sucks the life right out of you. You’ll notice how you feel immediately after sex. There’s a loss that occurs. You’ll lose more than life-giving sperm if you’re not careful; if you forget. O, remember, remember.

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DWD July 19, 2013 at 06:48

No, I’d rather hate and resist the bastards to my dying breath, even if it ruin me. I owe it to my fathers. My son will hate the system as I do. Such corruption and evil simply cannot go on forever.

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Jensen July 19, 2013 at 07:32

The system is broken and stinking, like a fish tank that has not been cleaned in years, and if there is to be any change, men have to COMPLETELY STRIKE when it comes to marriage. That means not only refusing to marry or remarry, but REFUSING TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR ATTEND OR CONGRATULATE OR GIVE ANY GIFT relating to marriage. This is very powerful and shakes up the status quo. I have taken the absolute strike approach with friends, their children, my own nieces and other family members and acquaintances. I state point blank: “The marriage system today is cruel, unjust, misleading, oppressive and catastrophic to men, and having personally been a victim of it, I consider it immoral to support it in any way. Please do not ask me to participate in acts which I deem to be IMMORAL. As respects the two of you I make the following offer: if in 5 years’ time you are still treating each other with the basic politeness of two strangers on the subway, and still have any desire to be together, then I will personally take you out to dinner to celebrate your ability to still maintain basic human decency.” I have already told my 18 year old son that if he is stupid enough to engage in legal marriage, I not only will not attend any wedding but I may refuse to speak with him or see him for a couple of years, and he knows I mean it. I have used the many thousands of dollars I have saved by boycotting these death induction ceremonies (marriage) to take pleasure trips to be with hot girls on other continents who genuinely and gratefully reciprocate for the money I spend.

I went through the marriage, kid, divorce meat grinder and I can assure you it was the most painful, depressing, unhealthy, humiliating and EXPENSIVE experience of my life. 1000-1 is a very modest ratio, and the expense of a kid in marriage can be many times higher. I have divided the money it cost me by the number of times I had sex with my ex wife (including uninspired sex, “dental chair sex” (“oww! are you almost done?!”) and casket sex (laying there like a dead body)(followed by witch-like laughter at my humiliation)) and it was at a minimum $3,600 per lousy lay. Compare that to the return on your money in the Dominican Republic or Thailand. I look much younger and healthier now than I did when I divorced 16 years ago: everyone who knows me can attest to this. So many men I know have been ground to dust by marriage. These are the sorry facts of what has been done to men and marriage through feminism and the empowered American female.

The female commentator who counsels “insist your wife be reasonable with expenses” has no idea how women survey, supervise, coax, threaten, cajole, henpeck, bestow/withhold sex and affection, threaten to withdraw their bodies and give them to some other man, and manipulate through a million stings and cuts, so that a man will be willing to blow $1 M if she will just shut the fuck up for 10 minutes; and she will be happy to destroy him so she can placate and/or keep up with her posse of dingdong girlfriends. Of course NAWALT! (not all women are like that!!!!): let me add NANALT (not all Nazis are like that), NAMALT (not all murderers are that); NAWBALT (not all wife beaters are like that), etc. etc.

Today, marriage with kids means zero freedom and choice, and zero control of your time, space, money, movement, interest and values; a sword of Damocles spinning over your head until the coffin lid is sealed. Stress, bitterness, disappointment, poor health, dissatisfaction, sexlessness, imprisonment and regret. And wait until you get a good shot of flaming disrespect from your little slut, snot faced teenage daughter. (King Lear: “How sharper than a serpent’s tooth is an ungrateful child!”). Men like my brother, whose daughters told him to go fuck himself years ago, consider themselves lucky compared to his friends who still have these ungrateful vipers at home. You’d better be 100% sure there is another life after death, because there won’t be one before it. Even my own dear Mom, a devout virgin who married at 21 in 1946, never knew a man other than my dad, and bore him seven children, agrees with me and joins me in counseling her grandson not to marry under today’s circumstances.

The best and most effective resistance is to refuse to participate and to teach your sons. Remember the words of Joshua Chamberlain of the 20th Maine at Little Roundtop at the battle of Gettysburg: “We are going to refuse the line!”

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Tom July 19, 2013 at 07:35

It’s one thing to sacrifice your life for your family, it’s another thing to sacrifice your life to support hostile State bureaucracies and a family from which one has been excluded, while living under a bridge and under constant threat of frivolous abuse and imprisonment.

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Sean July 19, 2013 at 07:46


Because it is men that pay for women’s indiscretions.
You thought she was on the pill because she told you? You pay.
You used a condom and it failed either by her fault or just misuse? You pay.
You, as a man, have very little say when it comes to your progeny. It exists with her completely with the threat point of having your freedom, cash, stuff and everything else taken away because she’s unhaaaaaaapy.

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Vektor July 19, 2013 at 07:50

What are the reasons to get married anymore? Sex? Don’t need to be married for that. Plus, what percentage of marriages out there are virtually sexless? Children? A man has no legal ‘ownership’ of their own offspring and they can be taken away by the mother at any time. No rights….only obligations. Companionship? Divorce leaves men broke and alone. Society rallies around the divorced woman with multiple support system minimizing her hardship and even absolving her of any guilt, even if she was the one at ‘fault’. There is no support system for divorced dads.

So in marriage you have a coin flips chance of ending up broke, alone, and childless. Your role of husband and father stripped from you regardless of your wants. A slave…and at a high risk for suicide. But who cares….you were always disposable anyway.

I think reaction to this is reflected in the rising number of people with kids who just cohabitate. This is the next feminist battleground. Making all of these common-law marriages as legally binding as an actual marriage. The State just can’t keep it hands out of every aspect of peoples lives.

Regarding vasectomy. Not sure. I have read many horror stories about complications and lasting pain. I have also heard from other guys that have had it that it is not a problem. I keep heard that the mythical male birth control pill is almost here.

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ahamkara July 19, 2013 at 07:57

The kids have been well worth all the hassle of dealing with their mother and the courts for me… but I’m one of the fortunate ones. I could certainly understand avoiding it altogether. I have no plans to get snipped, because my love of fatherhood (and my good fortune of being able to hold on to it despite court challenges) makes me think I might even have a second family someday.

HOWEVER, until such a day comes when I find a worthy woman and I have a war chest for legal defenses, you will not find me fooling around with any woman. Not that anyone’s offering, which makes it pretty easy.

That day may never come, and if it doesn’t… so be it.

My advice to young men would be, don’t let anyone touch you unless you have at least $50K in the bank for legal defenses. Few of them would listen… I would never have heeded that advice when I was wanting to start a family. The instinct is too strong for someone who is predisposed to fatherhood. All I can really say is… be prepared for the shitstorm.

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Steven DeLuca July 19, 2013 at 08:41

And then what, be a selfish young man traveling around the world seeing other countries, hang gliding, horse back riding with attractive women that love a man with a free spirit, having a great sound system and listening to what you want when you want, driving a Porche instead of a minivan, running around playing sports with your guy friends like an 18 year old when you are 35, hiring a part-time house cleaner and cook that leaves prepared meals and then gets the hell out of the way so that Debbie or Sherrie can bring over the “take-out Chinese” if that’s the evening plan. When you could have dirty diapers, a wife gaining weight and watching Oprah and bitching about how men screw up the world… what kind of world would this be Mr. Z. Then again, will all these college educated women making good money, they might be good travel partners as long as they don’t have that female wandering eye. (You know the one, gazing fondly at the jewelry window, seeing wealthy women doing “volunteer work” while donating their husbands money, wondering what it would be like to be a kept woman and not dealing with the stress of life that wears men down)

Bottom line, as long as women take care of children and are the first teachers in our son’s lives they will indoctrinate us to believe that our sexuality is wrong, that we are selfish and the only way out is a life of service to one woman and let her control both your income and sex life… and our sons buy it. Not all but most do. By the time adult men get the message and figure out how things really work, they are already chained to a woman and when it comes to divorce and freedom they find it’s “CHEAPER TO KEEP HER” … you have a good message Mr. Z but how do you get it to males before they are lost. And by the way. I have been married three times (Army PTSD caused problems for them, they were good women) and the third time I am happy with. The secret, all three were independent, well educated, and had careers. The problem is that with full-time work in different ways their children, mine and from other men, suffered. In an ideal world a woman that respects men and a man that respects women (Rare) meeting as equals to raise a family and share equally in parenting and income is a worthy goal, but when women like the man to start by groveling (on one knee) and call that proposal romantic, and then want two months of his pay for her ring, while she pays far less for his, if the wedding is all about her and her mom and their friends, if that’s the start you can be it won’t get better.

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justeunperdant July 19, 2013 at 08:44

We are at a critical point in human evolution. Because, as human, we could not override our biological instinct of reproduction, we have overpopulated the planet beyond the natural resource available (oil, agricultural land, water and I am not talking about the pollution created from human activity).

I am in favor of free vasectomy for every men that demand it. This could give a break to the human race and give us a chance to adjust the population size. Human must become brighter and learn to control their biological instinct, otherwise will go instinct ourselves. So, as a man, if you want to give a chance to human race, go get a vasectomy.

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joeb July 19, 2013 at 08:50

Move in with a Male buddy , Start a project , and incorporate .
This would be the plan if I had second chance .
Such a simple plan , can only get screwed by a female .
But, Its fun to think about , What could have been .

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joeb July 19, 2013 at 09:04

Just so men know alcohol injections are a better way of castrating yourself . It has some long term effect and your lifespan is said to be shorter but , I’m thinking that’s the medical community just not pissing in the pool .
Modern medicine can provide a lot of answers for men that fear getting sniped .
I have noticed some personality changes with men that do get sniped .
To get the real shimmy on such things you need to go to the horses mouth and talk to the men of the Eunuch Castration Page .
These men Become become Eunuch for reasons Like Mgtow’s have and even reasons of enlightenment freedom from sexual though .

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Anon July 19, 2013 at 09:29

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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Charles Walbridge July 19, 2013 at 09:32

If you can hang in there for about another 2 – 3 years, Vasalgel will be available. It’s reversible, less invasive than vasectomy, good for at least ten years. And it gives men much better conception control.

Watch the birth rate nine months after this hits the market.

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Michael July 19, 2013 at 09:39

I have to agree with Justinian. What use is it to mutilate yourself, if the sole reason is to continue engaging with the toxic demographic? Why not explore some new avenues than just retreat? It is true, they can change laws and make new laws to catch even the sliest MGTOW fox and make him bleed. What you are avoiding is the largest social engineering project in history. They are tweaking the system as long as it takes to make you squeal, and they can, because you let them.

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b-nasty July 19, 2013 at 09:51

Excellent analysis. The numbers may be all over the place statistically, but nobody would disagree that raising kids is insanely expensive. You are essentially making a choice: give up your life, money, and dreams to selflessly raise another. At least that’s how it used to be. Now you still give all that up, but there’s a good chance your marriage will fall apart, and a good chance that you’ll be seeing the kids you pay dearly for only a few times a month.

As I still fool around with women, I’ve been deeply considering the snip. I know that sex (even with a condom) is still extremely risky. A few swimmers slink by and your life is forever altered. Given most of the women I sleep with, that is a horror I can’t begin to imagine.

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Cultural_Expat July 19, 2013 at 10:16

Feminism values = Equality over Excellence

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Rus July 19, 2013 at 10:33

Said it recently in another post, but it bears repeating. Getting snipped is not a solution. You are still stuck right where you are. The only realistic solution is escape. Get out of the country, move somewhere with sane laws.

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Charles Martel July 19, 2013 at 10:34

Why should a man injure himself, castrate himself, efface his natural sexual identity and limit his biological function to fit some external condition or agenda ?

For reasons of pragmatism.

Here’s an interesting fact. According to the relevant case law your semen is no longer your property the instant it leaves your body. Under the law it’s considered to be an irrevocable gift from you, the donor, to whoever receives it, the donee. Think about that. Not only do you have no reproductive rights but you have no right of ownership to your own DNA.

Dr. Richard O. Phillips………accuses Dr. Sharon Irons of a “calculated, profound personal betrayal”………saying she secretly kept semen after they had oral sex, then used it to get pregnant.

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Jaego July 19, 2013 at 10:35

As the Rastas say, the Herb was meant for the Healing of the Nations. Or to quote Robert E Howard, “We broke the chain of the Southern Danes – now we break the World. (the Vikings would guard their harbors with a huge chain).

Once Men are Free, they can break this evil World System, also known as Babylon.

Is this Herb the basis of the European Pill we’ve heard rumors of?

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oddsock July 19, 2013 at 13:52


“You tie yourself to a bitch, question is why should you be immune from the consequences?”

Oh we are back to that old chestnut ” its the mans fault”

If you have ever been a smoker and stopped you would have been aware of how many people that still smoke try and get you to start again. If they succeed they always have a smug look on their face. The reasons are quite obvious.

What I do find interesting about your posts and various comments you make on youtube is that you seem to be trying to convince yourself of an (imagined) security within your own marriage by trying to persuade other men it is quite safe. It isn’t, and far from it.

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keyster July 19, 2013 at 15:22

Woman’s World
Feminism marches on.


House Democrats’ agenda — “When Women Succeed, America Succeeds: An Economic Agenda for Women and Families” — stands on the shoulders of what was accomplished at Seneca Falls

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Andrew July 19, 2013 at 15:52

I’ll keep my post simple….

I am a 49 year old man (I’ll be 50 in a month).
I have no children.
I got a vasectomy when I was 34 years old.
I have no regrets about my decision to get a vasectomy. None at all.

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fmz July 19, 2013 at 16:45

There’s a major difference b/w doing your own thing and retreating.
Many have simply chosen to not enter the game, stay off the battle field, so to speak. Go another way and build something new rather than fighting over the old ways.

Some have retreated after being burnt or not liking the game or not liking the goods once home and outta the box. Often they go onto wanting to change things or see change as a result of their disengagement. What seems to happen, eventually, is that even the desire to change the system goes. And one simply redirects energy into living a good and happy life, without the noise, the hussle and the bustle.

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Anonymous age 71 July 19, 2013 at 17:57

Vasectomy 1976. Freedom. At times a bit of pain, like if I put my pants on wrong. Better than chains.

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ZBT July 19, 2013 at 18:23


That’s what dating is (or ought to be) for. It’s the time to make sure the person you are considering marrying is a reasonable, prudent person capable of following a budget and working out differences, budget-related and otherwise. You should also look for all those other things you really want in a spouse, like faithfulness.

You say a person like that is hard to find nowadays? Well, yes, that’s true. You still shouldn’t get married unless you’ve found someone worth marrying.

If you do like one of my brothers did and fall in love with a girl for her looks and smile before ever having a conversation with her, then go and cohabitate and propose very quickly, you at least somewhat deserve what you get for such stupidity. Of course, it goes the opposite way too. If a woman ignores the warning signs and marries a philanderer or abuser, she’s also partially responsible for whatever bad things occur as a result of her poor decision-making.

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ZBT July 19, 2013 at 18:30


The tying-yourself-to-a-bitch quote didn’t come from me. I do believe though in personal responsibility for both men and women. If someone of either gender ignores red flags before marriage, and all too many people do, then they are partially responsible for the results.

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Torgo July 19, 2013 at 18:33

“Perhaps it would be better for young guys to be a good uncle to their sister’s kids…”

And buy a country place that no one knows about and preserve an old machine for 50-odd years, a brilliant red Barchetta from a better, vanished time.


Or at least build a hell of a silver stack for the little ones!

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ZBT July 19, 2013 at 18:45


Also … what other posts and comments on YouTube? When you made that comment, I had only commented once in this thread and nowhere else on this blog. I’ve never commented on YouTube.

I’m a little perplexed as to what you are talking about here.

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Lyn87 July 19, 2013 at 21:49

I got the snip in 1989… fully recovered in about two days.

That was best $158 I ever spent.

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DW3 July 19, 2013 at 23:30

I make closer to $30k than $40k. I get $9k a year seized off my pay ($750 a month, before taxes) to support my younger son, who I am legally supposed to have regular access to, but have not seen in 5 years. As far as I know, I would have to go back to court to prove that my ex-wife had remarried to end the alimony portion of the cash she gets from me. I believe that this is what keeps her from marrying the man she lives with.

I have been subject to every punishment available short of incarceration for failure to pay, and have been bankrupt but did not and likely will not get a discharge since the government leg-breaker department would not cooperate with my trustee’s requests for paperwork.

I also pay +/- $250 a month for my older son, plus 50% of ‘additional’ (section 7 here in Canada) expenses, plus 100% of the fuel and transportation costs associated with living approximately 200 miles away from his mother. (I live where I live since I live with my mother.)

91% sounds about right to me. I’d be beyond screwed if my parents didn’t/wouldn’t (or God forbid, couldn’t) help me.

That said, the look on my son’s face when I picked him up to spend a couple weeks here over summer holidays (and every other time I see him) reminded me why I’m still putting myself through the brutal mistreatment. I’m intelligent enough to know I should have fled for a better place when the squeeze first started. Trying to be as good a dad as I can in the time that I’m permitted to is the only thing that keeps me going.

That, and one other thing. Trying to help men who are worse off than I am in my community is almost as satisfying as being a father. It’s not for vanity’s sake that I post a flyer outside the courthouse and an ad in the local paper inviting men to call or email me if they are alone and don’t know where to turn. If I could afford it, I’d have a billboard.

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KDB July 19, 2013 at 23:39

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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oddsock July 20, 2013 at 00:39


Oh the irony, obviously still trying to reassure yourself. Perhaps you would care to share your expertise and opinions with Mr Price, founder of the Spearhead that you post on or perhaps read again the post above made by DW3. Both divorced.

You have the chair. On you go, explain to them how they deserve their pain because they just didn’t choose the right woman and failed to filter out female nature/hypergamy. I am all eyes.

My apologies Mr Price & DW3, I do not wish to offend either of you nor make light of the pain you have both experienced. Sometimes it is neccessary to hold the feet of idiots like ZBT to the fire of observation and common sense just so others, especially the younger guys, can dismiss his/her bull shit fairy tale advice by seeing the cold hard facts of reality and the highly likely outcome of marriage/divorce regardless of our vetting.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 4
oddsock July 20, 2013 at 01:23

Before you consider a vasectomy marriage or co habiting. Have a good listen to this video. It will help should you wish to follow the advice given by ZBT and try vetting a future wife for warning signs.

Ladies, If You Were A Man, Would You Respect Women?


Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2
lavazza1891 July 20, 2013 at 01:59

“Some have retreated after being burnt or not liking the game or not liking the goods once home and outta the box. Often they go onto wanting to change things or see change as a result of their disengagement. What seems to happen, eventually, is that even the desire to change the system goes. And one simply redirects energy into living a good and happy life, without the noise, the hussle and the bustle.”

“1.33 In relationships, the mind becomes purified by cultivating feelings of friendliness towards those who are happy, compassion for those who are suffering, goodwill towards those who are virtuous, and indifference or neutrality towards those we perceive as wicked or evil.
(maitri karuna mudita upekshanam sukha duhka punya apunya vishayanam bhavanatah chitta prasadanam)”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
oddsock July 20, 2013 at 02:48



Also … what other posts and comments on YouTube? When you made that comment, I had only commented once in this thread and nowhere else on this blog. I’ve never commented on YouTube.

I’m a little perplexed as to what you are talking about here.

My apologies. Your comments and laughable attempts at trying to promote marriage as safe for men reminds me very much of a couple of pussy whipped manginas that post similar bilge on youtube. Rocking MrE and Critcal G. Sad specimens indeed.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
earl July 20, 2013 at 03:13

No thanks…I’m proud of my seed.

Which is why it only goes to a worthwhile woman.

This “sperm is 10 cent” stuff is garbage. It’s only 10 cents if you think of it that way.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 4
DCM July 20, 2013 at 03:16

“ZBT July 18, 2013 at 23:187
Those numbers are very misleading. Yes, you can spend that much on your children, your wedding, etc., but you don’t have to.

My husband and I keep our kids decently clothed and fed and with lots of toys, and we don’t spend anywhere near $23,158 per year on them. We spent less than $1,000 on our wedding. My engagement ring was $200, my wedding ring $100.

This is an area where a man can really lead. Set a reasonable budget (yes, even for the wedding), stick to it, and insist your wife follow it as well. Your wife will respect you more for it, even if she pouts about it.”7

Theoretically, but what female is going to allow this when it means she might actually have to do something and not spend virtually everything on herself?
It would work 50+ years ago but not today. Females won’t cooperate.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 3
DW3 July 20, 2013 at 03:37

@ZBT July 19, 2013 at 18:23

***”If you do like one of my brothers did and fall in love with a girl for her looks and smile before ever having a conversation with her, then go and cohabitate and propose very quickly, you at least somewhat deserve what you get for such stupidity. Of course, it goes the opposite way too. If a woman ignores the warning signs and marries a philanderer or abuser, she’s also partially responsible for whatever bad things occur as a result of her poor decision-making.”***

Isn’t the main thing we are complaining about that the responsibilities fall so disproportionately on one party? Shouldn’t my ex-wife shoulder some of the blame for marrying a bad guy, or is it my problem forever?

It’s my understanding that my province spends dollars for every few cents they collect from ‘debtors’ like me. The rest of the taxpayers would reduce the deficit by just cutting cheques to ex-wives and baby mamas.

There isn’t a cent that I’m aware of that’s spent on enforcing access (aka visitation) or custody, unless it’s a father denying a trashy mother time with the child. I saw the same system that robbed, then beat and now ignores me bend over backwards to accommodate and give second (and third, and fourth, and fifth) chances to the (literally) junkie daughter of one of my dear mother’s closest friends. I’m impoverished enough that all I do is sit at the computer and read, but I’m not making any claim at being any sort of expert.


I’m well aware that we don’t agree on much, and I often neg your comments, but thanks, bro. It feels good to be acknowledged, especially by someone I don’t see eye to eye with.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1
Paul July 20, 2013 at 04:04

A vasectomy is not neccessary. And you have to be of a certain age, for most doctors to consider giving it to you. In South America, according to a Brazilian friend of mine, he could only get it when he turned 38 years old, and even then the doctor required the consent of the wife!

Sex is overrated. It carries too many risks. Stds, false rape reports, stalkers, psycho ex-boyfriends wanting your hide because they are still ”in love” with the woman. Women also feel like they’re entitled to your resources and your time when they have sex with you – unless you’re a Brad Pitt.

Simply avoid women. When you take away sex from the table they don’t have anything else of value(as if sex has any value) and you’re free to enjoy yourself.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 35 Thumb down 4
oddsock July 20, 2013 at 04:09


I’m well aware that we don’t agree on much, and I often neg your comments, but thanks, bro. It feels good to be acknowledged, especially by someone I don’t see eye to eye with.


No problem mate. Its the nature of the beast, its a man thing, many can understand your pain regardless of any differences of opinion.

Not seeing eye to eye is of no major consequence. What is of far more importance is that we are raising awareness among men. They will no doubt choose their own way just from the evidence they see and read and start to understand what it all basically boils down;-

Borrowed from Chauncers post on an earlier thread

“We is all niggas black men and white”

The method of how we get out of this or start to improve mans lot is irrelevant. Arguing debating even the occasionally tizzy fit and spitting out of dummies are simply the vehicle. Raising mens awareness is the destination.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
Anon July 20, 2013 at 05:21

Oh we are back to that old chestnut ” its the mans fault”

Well, it’s the woman’s fault if she marries an abusive cad, isn’t it?

She should’ve thought with her head, not her cunt.

She should’ve given the nice guy a shot and not the raging, abusive bad boy. These are the consequences of her being an idiot and not asking herself the tough questions in choosing a mate.

So why does the guy get a free pass for making the same stupid, inane decision?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 6
Anon July 20, 2013 at 05:59

Just so its clear, it isn’t a man’s fault a woman is a bitch. But it is a man’s fault if he up and marries her anyway.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 7
Eric J Schlegel July 20, 2013 at 06:17

Joe Zamboni where the hell were you 25 years ago? The best piece of advice to the young men going after me is simply that, once the children arrive you are #2. Once the children arrive you are making a deal with Darth Vader; pray he dosen’t alter the bargain further. Once the children arrive you either become a philosopher, a felon, or a divorced dad. Unless you take your responsibility as a father seriously and adhere to that duty 100%, unless you are able to set your own life and marriage aside, and unless you are willing to pay the price of a damaged soul JUST SAY NO!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1
Jensen July 20, 2013 at 07:56

Actually, one could do a more thorough analysis of the risk of marriage + kids, and simply put the entire financial burden on the female upfront. I tell aging girls coming off the cock carousel that I am very, VERY old fashioned and believe not only in the traditional concept of marriage and but the traditional concept of dowry. But I also believe that modern women are responsible adults, and therefore enjoy full responsibility for their conduct. Here are my modest demands in view of the modern divorce rate and typical divorce industry costs:

Wedding: $ 50,000
Childcare 2,100,000 ($1.0m @ 2.1 kids)
Divorce legal fees 65,000 ($100k @ 65% odds
Alimony 650,000 ($1m @ 65% odds)
Pain and suffering 1,300,000 ($2m @ @ 65% odds)
Post Divorce Legal Fees 325,000 ($500k @ 65% odds)
Humiliation 65,000 ($100k @ 65% odds)
Loss of Consortium 650,000 ($1m @ 65% odds)
Second Residence 650,000
Post Divorce “Sex Support” 325,000 ($500k @ 65% odds)
Shortened Life 3,500,000 (7 yrs @$500k/yr @ 100% odds)
Lost Business Income 2,500,000 ($2.5m @ 100% odds)
TOTAL $11,530,000

So my dear, do you believe that men and women are equal and therefore equally accountable for their actions and the risk they have created? Are you happy with the way the “system” works? Fine, then you pick up the risk. If you want to get married to me and have kids? Then go scrape up $11.53M and give it to me first. Then we will certainly have a wonderful married life, me knowing that I have no risk and that you have prepaid out of your own wealth and assets the consequences of any misconduct you may engage in.

Imagine declaring triumphantly in divorce court: “Your honor, I am happy to pay the alimony and child support you ordered! I will take these measly amounts out of the $11.53M pre marriage, non marital asset dowry I received, which my ex wife worked so hard to accumulate in exchange for marriage , and which has since gown to $18.8 million under my prudent stewardship. I fully believe in and support these types of assessments as well as the legally equal status of women, who now bear the financial responsibility for their conduct in enjoyment of their equal status. Long live equality for women!”

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 2
T. Kelly July 20, 2013 at 08:47

With all due respect to Mr. Zamboni, this post (and the comments that follow) is a good example of why people who don’t understand statistics should run posts that use them by someone who does. If this claim – that a man with kids will have 90% of his post-tax dollars going to pay the bills for people other than himself – seems wrong at first blush, there’s a reason for that: it is. What’s more, it’s embarrassingly easy to show that it is.

Since you used a little “back of the envelope” calculations to write this post, allow me to use some of the same to check your math:

Let’s say you’re an average divorced man with alimony and child support. I don’t know what the average monthly mortgage/rent payment in the country for a divorced man is, but let’s be conservative and round it out at $750 a month. (As a comparison, the actual avg. rent – divorced or not – is $786; avg. mortgage payment for same is $1467.) You are therefore paying $9,000 a year in rent/mortgage payments. This means that if your >90% estimate is correct, then in order to have enough money to pay for that $750 monthly rent/mortgage payment (and nothing else) you need to bring home $90,000 a year *pre tax*. If all of your other expenses (food, electricity, car payment, car insurance, beer money, etc.) only add up to another $750, that means according to you that you need to bring home $180,000 annually before taxes, or (depending on exactly where you live) about a quarter of a million dollars a year in pre-tax salary in order to barely afford that $750 a month rent.

Raise your hands if you think all the divorced men in the United State who live in a $750 studio apartment because it’s all they can afford make more than a quarter million dollars a year.

I’m not sure which I find more surprising – that someone would post statistical calculations this terrible without taking a moment to think it through, or (after reading the comments) that at a site as well respected by its men’s rights peers as the SH, not one single person would be incredulous enough to even question such a ridiculous claim.

In his post earlier this week, W.H. Price was right: mainstream journalists *are* starting to look your way and see if you’re for real. (I oughta know.) If the men’s rights movement has issues that truly deserve attention (and I believe they do) and if people here truly care about having those issues addressed (and again I believe they do), then allow me to offer an unsolicited word of advice: You need to start becoming more disciplined with your thinking and your arguments. When people who actually know statistics check you out after hearing about your movement on 20/20, this kind of really terrible and credulous argument will not win you converts – it will make you a laughingstock.

And seriously: draft someone into your movement that actually understands statistics.

And now I will leave you to down-vote me for being a feminist stooge.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 20 Thumb down 12
greyghost July 20, 2013 at 10:06

There is no vetted wife. There is only laws of misandry. It makes no difference the laws make any woman a bitch. It was done on purpose by law. ZBT you are dead wrong to think there is this magical way of finding the “Right” woman. Just because you have a woman that hasn’t pulled the trigger doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a gun to your head all fully loaded and aimed for her by LAW. The one thing all men starting at age 12 should know. ( why 12, that is the cutoff age for a male child at a woman’s shelter he goes to juvy.) There is not enough kindness, love ,devotion ,money, sacrifice or deeds to ever remove that gun from you head. Completely emasculate yourself to her will and makes no difference she is free to pull the trigger and when she does by law you are an unworthy regardless of human dignity. Every man here knows it on some level and now you do too. All of this talk is how human beings cope with reality. we make mistakes in ideas. we argue and ridicule each other. Most often we forget the individual nature of each other and our emotional and spiritual needs we have as individuals (the PUA vs MRA, MGTOW vs. the activist, Christian vs. atheist, black vs white etc. etc. I’m a family man at heart forced into being a warrior for the selfish reason of making a family man friendly world for my son)
(btw that doesn’t necessarily mean female friendly if the whole world looks like Detroit with a little Chicago gun fire fine with me as long as a family man is respected and admired culturally and legally.) We are all united by the truth of reality.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 5
Vektor July 20, 2013 at 18:12

“Just so its clear, it isn’t a man’s fault a woman is a bitch. But it is a man’s fault if he up and marries her anyway.”

There is an old saying I once heard….

‘The day you get married is the day your meet your wife for the first time’

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 2
jdubya July 20, 2013 at 20:17

Wait a second!!! Men in this country are still marrying?
That’s gotta be a typo

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 2
joeG July 21, 2013 at 00:08

your 91% figure along with this article posted by keyster
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/opinion/pelosi-delauro-women-economy/index.html?hpt=hp_t4 highlight the biggest irony of feminism.

It is that feminism isn’t women fight men to get more (since men will eventually give everything they have to some woman), its really women fighting women to get more. To be specific its women without a man fighting women with man to get more. The article confirms this by stating, “Unmarried women — single, widowed or divorced — are the most economically insecure.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5
joeG July 21, 2013 at 06:19

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 19
keyster July 21, 2013 at 09:50

Wait a second!!! Men in this country are still marrying?
That’s gotta be a typo

Yes they are, to each other…and the receptions are fabulous.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2
Gilgamesh July 21, 2013 at 18:59

Sorry Joeg, but embracing child support = embracing responsibility with no authority (while women are still free to abort their responsibility.)

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2
Gilgamesh July 21, 2013 at 19:02

@Charles Walbridge
This is interesting. Do you know how I could prove that I was on Vasalgel if a woman tried to slap me with a bogus paternity suit? I know vasectomies are easy to prove but this might be a better option.

Not holding my breath about it ever being free though.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
joeG July 21, 2013 at 19:30

Child support as a part of an amicable co-parenting agreement is about two people sharing responsibility. Co-parenting isn’t about love or sex. It involves two people (maybe friends, maybe strangers) who want children and whats best for their children so abortion in not a concern. Most men want to reproduce. Nothing anyone says will change that. I believe finding a woman to co-parent with is the best means available to men for reproduction outside of traditional marriage 1.0

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 16
Abel July 21, 2013 at 19:47

The problem with this is that doctors routinely deny vasectomies to young men, and often require the permission of a man’s wife. It’s really hard to find a doctor willing to perform one.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3
Anonymous July 21, 2013 at 21:51


“Why should a man injure himself, castrate himself, efface his natural sexual identity and limit his biological function to fit some external condition or agenda ?”

I’ll tell you why. Better, Ill show you.

Go to the local mall on some weekend day, and see the number of men who look like beaten dogs, knowing there is nothing they can do about the state of affairs before them – wife and children, all demanding, all pleading, not one ever saying “Thanks Dad” to the guy who sacrificed his dreams for theirs.

Here’s a useful idea. Go to an “assisted living residence” sometimes, and see the people there who have been abandoned there by their children, children for whom they sacrificed their dreams, and their entire lives. Go ahead.

You’ll call the local urologist about a day later.

I guarantee it.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 4
bruno July 22, 2013 at 01:53

About vasectomy:
Yes there are some risks for pain and discomfort.
And many men avoid vasectomy because of these risks.
The risk of pain and discomfort scares them more than the risk of paying 25 years of child support.

But how does that compare to women?

What are the health risks of pregnancy and childbirth?
Those risks are enormously more serious and dangerous.
And do women let these risks scare them off from having children?

No of course not, women are far more hard and ruthless than men.
They think:
“To hell with all health risks, I want a child, I don’t want that pot of free money pass me by.
I rather die giving birth, than to have to go to work to earn money.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3
Observer July 22, 2013 at 03:02

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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oddsock July 22, 2013 at 04:34


“I just wanted to congratulate all the MGTOWs that support this. Self sterilization? You’ve gone full retard”

Sadly Observer, you have failed to observe or even understand MGTOW is about each man, as an individual, being able to consider the current environment and options available to him, so HE can make choices to follow or not, which also includes a path of his own desire and design without seeking permission from his peers or approval from society.

Spooky I know but I think you will find men are quite capable of evaluating and decison making, especially when it comes to plans for their own well being safety and happier lifestyle.

Do try and keep up. Pfft!

P.s. Thanks for the congrats anyway.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2
Vektor July 22, 2013 at 06:25


Men have responsibility (regardless to if they willingly signed on for it or not). The State will use force to compel responsibility. There is nothing wrong with shared responsibility. That is what my idea of a good marriage or partnership would look like.

The problem is the lack of shared power…women have all the power. Power corrupts. It causes bad behavior and bad decisions. There must be balance in a true partnership. Incentives and disincentives matter.

Men still want children, but are aware that marriage in its current form is broken. Some are co-parenting/co-habituating as you say. Personally, I think this will be the next feminist battleground. Some are MGTOW, even if they have never heard the term before they are living the lifestyle. Some are embracing the PUA lifestyle, again not necessarily even defining themselves with those terms. The commonality is the rejection of the broken system. The conscious or unconscious strategy of starving the beast. Currently, it is the only viable strategy as feminist doctrine currently control the mainstream narrative.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3
CpC July 22, 2013 at 11:36

Joe Zamboni I enjoyed your article. I also like to do rough estimations, as you say, back of the envelope calculations.

One that I have been toying with is what percent of married men are truly happy being married, say after 30 to 40 years of marriage bliss. Say when they retire at age 65 and they look back on those years since marrying their little woman.

There are three distinct groups of married men:

1. The first group represents 50% of men who marry, call them Tom and Dick. They are the group of married men who get divorced rape by the little woman. I know the divorce rape rate is 54% but I rounded down so as to make this easy for the females who have a problem with fractions, decimal points and with numbers that are not, let’s say 50%, nice and even. Okay. Indulge me, please. It is just some rough estimations based on some true numbers. Tom and Dick have the likely possibility and probability of being divorced rape between the ages of 35 and 45 years of age. Dick has the distinct possibility of an early death, be it genetics, poor life style (no money left after the child support imputed income to eat right and live right), self images goes south which results in poor mental health, and suicide or he becomes victim to heart problems, stroke, etc.. The medical experts say a key to a long and healthy life is to have good mental health. (I believe the CDC numbers on mortality will back me up).
2. The second group is 25% of married men, let’s call this group Harry. Harry gets married in his 20′s to the apple of his eye. But, between his early 30′s and his early 40′s, Harry takes the dirt nap. This could be due to genetics (cancer, heart disease) or it could because of the pressure from that apple of his eye and the stress she exert on him. She went from his apple of his eye to being a land whale with the personality of Nurse Rachett with the social graces of a putzfrau and the generous and caring character similar to a female SS concentration guard. Poor Harry could not take the pressure to perform. (Ditto on CDC findings).

3. The last group is the 25% of married men who reach age 65 and retirement after 30 or 40 years of marriage bliss. We’ll call this group Guido. But, now back to my original questions: what percent of married men at age 65 after 30 to 40 years of marriage can honestly say they would not change anything in their life, it was just what they thought it would be. A positive experience. If Guido could look at his life and objectively and truthfully say it was good and they were and are happy years, what percent? Even those who say they would not change a thing and would do all over again, how many have given up fighting, were afraid to battle the 5 ton elephant in the room (divorce-rape, family court, child support, etc) and just went along with the flow? They saw the deck was stacked against them. In a postive note, how many can say that their significant other was truly a committed, willing and honest member of their partnership in marriage? A women who accepted her role as a wife, mother, and supporting partner in the relationship? A woman who was not swayed by feminist brainwashing, consumerism, under the influence of the herd (having to keep up with herd: Sally Wide Load just came back from a dream vacation, when we are going on one?; Jill the Shrew’s husband just bought a new mcmansion, why can’t we?; Harriet the Hamster’s husband bought a vacation home, why can’t you treat me like that?, you know the me, me , me chorus of verbal abuse and belittlement) My guess would be about 10%, or, 2.5 men. But I need to round up to 3 men, so, the hamster does not have a meltdown. Others would say 20%. Okay, 6 men. So, basing on a 100 married men, not just the 25 who make it to retirement after 30 to 40 years of marriage, it 3% to 6%, not 3 or 6 out 25.

So, if you are thinking of marrying the special princess, the way I see it, remember you have 3 to 6% chance of reaching a happy, rewarding, satisfying life by the time you hit 65. Then you can take off that yoke of being a wage slave to the little women. You were able to keep your dreams in place, maintain your pre-marriage associations, interest, activities, career aspirations, able to continue to grow as a mature man, willing to take on life’s obligations, responsibilities, and demands knowingly and supported by that special princess. The special princess who knows changes come along that each partner in a marriage needs to accept and adjust for equally. Some one who believes that compromise is a two-way street, who knows that her first role is to support her husband.
So, if a success rate of 3 to 6% does not scare a man from marrying then go for it. But with your eyes wide open and accepting of the high risk. If you failure, I will not be telling you that you were told. You need support to stand back up and continue to have a rewarding life.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1
hanz July 22, 2013 at 12:00

I only wish alimony was that cheap. My ex filed divorce when she was 31 and I was 34. The judge ordered $2250/month support. Now can someone explain to me how a 31 year old woman is judged so financially indigent by the court? At that age she obviously did not spend her life raising my kids.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1
Joe Zamboni July 22, 2013 at 14:47

@ CpC -
You provide very interesting calculations about how many married men are genuinely happy after 30-40 years of marriage. I agree with your bottom line conclusion, although I don’t know about the numbers. If you could support your analysis with multiple tie-ins to publicly-available third-party (objective) statistics, such as for longevity of married vs. unmarried men, that would be illuminating. I urge you to turn your comment into a full-blown article… I believe it would be an eye-opener for many men.

Dire Badger July 22, 2013 at 17:52


You seem to be assuming that each man that is not MGTOW as a form of ‘passive resistance’ is firmly red-pill mired.

I am violently against MGTOW as well, and not because I am interested in maintaining the status quo. There is a third alternative that MGTOW is actively subtracting men from, and that is ACTIVE resistance.

No, men do not ‘go their own way’. Children do that. Men actively resist.

MGTOW will NEVER have the kind of effect that active resistance will. MGTOW is ‘giving up’ on the fight. it is pathetic and disgracefully yielding the field of battle to a dishonorable opponent.

If someone punches you, you PUNCH BACK! you do it ten times harder. If your woman tries to rob you, you defend your property. If a cop points a gun at you, you neutralize them with extreme prejudice. If a judge robs you of your child, you TAKE your child and start making gasoline cocktails to deal with the judge.

No one HAS to put up with this shit. Sure, a certain percentage of us men that actively resist will be shot, or imprisoned, it happens. But if enough men actively resist this injustice CANNOT STAND.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 13
3DShooter July 22, 2013 at 18:22

I was going to respond to an audacious post by username ‘Melvin Belli’ who no longer appears to be in the thread – for good reason. But I’ll post my response to this mangina anyway so it’ll have some reading material.

From memory, he insinuated that most spearhead readers were just bitching and trying to dodge C$, that they should seek modifications when changes in life occur. MB, it ain’t that easy asshole . . .

When I lost my job of 23 years, which I knew was coming, I prepared. On day one of the first day of the month of my ‘unemployment’ I filed for modification of my $1565.00/mo C$. It took $6000.00 in attorney’s fees and four months to get a modification during which time I had to continue the C$ payments in addition to $900/mo insurance. When it was finally modified, the month in which I filed (on the 1st) was disallowed. After the modification, the C$ and insurance I am required to pay was 110% of total cash in-flow.

So Melvin, go phuc yourself. For men caught in the system, you need to have $25k/$30k sitting there just to deal with the bullshit. Sadly, many cannot, I’m lucky. If you cannot do that you’re pretty well screwed. People who say petition for a modification are shills for the kangaroo family kourt/C$ system. Ms/it Belli ESAD . . .

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1
Observer July 22, 2013 at 19:49

@ Dire Badger

Right on, 1000%. Men fight back and retake what is rightfully theirs. By cutting off our potential to actively raise kids, who’s going to do it? More deadbeat mothers? Who’s gonna teach the next generation of women not be the worst kind of whore: the child support guzzling ex-wife?

@ Oddsock

You guys gotta realize that this shit is quittin talk. If this is what MGTOW is ultimately about, I’ll fight it to the end. I’m confident this won’t ever catch on anyway but if this is MGTOW’s ultimate weapon, you might as well call it quits. Like we need another defeatist voice among the vast throng of man hating/family hating masses.

The feminist agenda might temporarily bring us together but it’s moments like these that remind me that when one of us tries to go to far out there, the truce is over.

So once again if you insist on spewing this tail tucking BS, by all means.
Somehow your awesome logic fails to evince anything more than “men are dogs, lets enjoy the table scraps”. Being head of a family is man’s first and most important dominion and it’s time to talk about reclaiming it. Clearly it’s too much for some of you intellectually bankrupt two-bit fucking hacks to take in.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 9
lulz July 22, 2013 at 21:48

“Why should a man injure himself, castrate himself, efface his natural sexual identity and limit his biological function to fit some external condition or agenda ?”

I see imputed income in this man’s future. Should be fun.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3
oddsock July 23, 2013 at 00:29

Dire Badger

No. I assume nothing. I thought that would be obvious with my views and promotion of MGTOW to people that may still be undecided. Not that it matters.

Dire Badger , Observer.

Ok no problem. You both know my position and the main reasons why I believe MGTOW is the only sane choice for men. No it is not an ” Ultimate weapon” It is a mans choice to follow his own path. Now lets see your reasons.

You have the floor. Take the opportunity to expand on your position.
Explain to The Spearhead readers what it is you are fighting for. The reasons why and what exactly it is that you want ? Be as specific as you can and perhaps even explain how you hope to achieve this.

As far as I can tell and please don’t take this as me being sarcastic or me trying to be a smart arse. I genuinely see your position as this:- You want men to fight but you don’t seem sure on who exactly you are fighting which may result in death and/or prison for a return to a position of being a beast of burden with a slightly reduced threat of death or prison and because of what exactly ? You’re men ? For me, that is “quitting talk” as you put it. If that is not the case then please explain why.

Regardless, information options and raising mens awareness is the key. Men will decide themselves what path to follow.

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Observer July 23, 2013 at 04:33

@ T. Kelly

Great point about the 90% claim. Even though it’s an exaggeration, we know that the reality is still harsh for those guys locked into 18 years of child support payments that often get readjusted anytime the ex finds out they might be making more money.

@ oddsock

I’ve been pretty clear over and over again. The real key is getting fathers back with their children, plain and simple. There’s alot of active forces out there that encourage the single mother/divorcee lifestyle and it’s going to take more awareness, legal action, politics etc. There’s no sleight of hand, no PUA guide that’s going to save us all.

If you spend your life learning how to take advantage of the weaker sex, which really ain’t that hard to do today fellas, you’re not in a great position to find a woman who isn’t a trick. Many of you claim AWALT, only because that’s what it looks like when you’re circling the drain. Just like NAMALT, I’ll just chalk it up to a few hairballs that never gave a shit about the consequences of their actions in the first place.

But since everyone wants practical advice here it is:
- Carefully note the kinds of friends she has. (self projection)
- Carefully observe her relationship with both parents. (established patterns, expectations)
- After you argue, who generally apologizes first? (can indicate dominance)
- Carefully note how much personal space is given. (too little means she’s a an insecure manipulator, too much means she’s not that into you lol)
- Grow a frontal lobe and do not sleep with every skank that comes on to you.
- Learn to recognize truly positive female personality traits. (this is severely lacking in these parts)
- Don’t allow married women to form romantic attachments with you. (teamwork people)
- Write to your senators and representatives about overturning the various legal provisions and standards that discriminate against men. (http://www.dadi.org/ms-fits.htm is a great start)

Outside of that, all relationships are risky precisely because we have to let our guard down to let someone else through the door. No risk no reward, even if we didn’t have all the extra crap pressing down on us.

No one is assured happiness or success but telling young men to cut off their ability to reproduce because the system is gonna get them is just too fucking cowardly and stupid. The only reason anyone should get a vasectomy is if they don’t want kids. That’s it.

Here’s another reason not to: kids have a habit of growing into adults that actually care about their parents welfare as they grow older. No more Social Security checks for my generation. Just something to think about.

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CpC July 23, 2013 at 06:30

Joe Zamboni, I appreciate your response.

I need to try and remember where I picked up those numbers. I hear things on the radio, read in newspapers, and on the internet. It all goes in the grey matter, like someone who collects rubber bands. A big glob of facts and minutae(?). The third part, the one with man’s truthful analysis of his life in marriage is mostly from personal observations, and antecodal.

You have been to neighborhood get-to-gethers, office functions, Christmas parties(I apologize that so un-PC). Where after a while, males and females separate into their own little groups. Overhearing or even eavesdropping on the wifes clustered together, you hear some interesting conversations.

The first item of discussion (even if they meet regularly or just a couple times a year) is establishing or re-establishing the peeking order within the herd. It is usually based on objective items, not personal. Who has the new car, new home, who had the vacation of their dreams, etc. Next, the knives come out. Not on males in attendance, but the new female or the female who acts and dresses in a true feminine way. No excess make up (light amount of war paint and she does not need a trowel to apply), no false or enhanced body parts, dresses in appealing feminine way, does not need to flaunt her assets. The woman who enjoys talking with men, who is smiling and approachable. Dare I say even talks to the office nerd, the neighborhood quiet guy, senior males. She is there to enjoy the occassion not score points in the herd peeking order. This drives the herd to distraction, someone who does not need their validation to have a good time.

Next, and I refer to this part of herd converstion as ‘the seal training for the circus’ talk. The exchange between the herd how they trained or got their wage slave husband to do something. They will compare notes and then the verbal raping of their respective husbands starts. They will go as far as doing it so their insignificant other hears it along with everyone else.

If the little lady has had her position in the herd reduced (no new possession or a possession that did not measure up), the slave will not be getting any sex that night. He will be getting an earful of why can’t we(you fill in the blank). Most women do this, some more blatant then others. Some more subtle than others. But for the most part they all do it.

After years of this overt(implicit and explicit) social pressure, man accepts and buckles under, because he wants to maintain the family. Man’s purpose in life (it is hardwired, if I can use the term) to provide and protect. Man receives the greatest joy in his life from being a father. He revels in the role of father with his children. Or, it least, he should. But, he remembers, even if the marriage stays intact. The scale in his mind weighs the good and the bad over those 30 to 40 years. It comes up lacking.

I will try to remember where or just start searching for the hard data to helpful prove or support my scenario more completely. Take care.

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nugganu July 23, 2013 at 11:50

Meh. I’m not sorry that I have my daughter, no matter the troublesome things I have had to go through. I wouldn’t trade her for anything.

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Dire Badger July 23, 2013 at 15:03


Dire Badger was previously known as Brigadon (not so romantic anymore, thus the name change)
I know exactly whom I am fighting, and who is the enemy. Essentially, you can recognize them because they receive a paycheck from the federal government without having sworn an oath to defend the constitution. They wear uniforms and believe that ‘public servant’ means ‘public master’. I am fighting evil.

Most importantly, their actions define who they are. You can recognize the enemy by the evil that they do, always claiming that ‘it’s for your own good’. They slaughter children or rip them out of families ‘for their own good’. They exploit laws and loopholes to gain money and power. They tell children that being completely selfish and having ‘self-esteem’ is the only important thing in life. They are policemen, feds, politicians, lawyers, judges, ‘special appointees’, Corporate drones, prison wardens, ‘ad men’, lobbyists, ‘guardians ad litum’ (librum?)’, college professors, ‘hot topic’ journalists, racism/sexism/creedism pimps, and essentially people who have willingly sold their soul to the machine.

Many are simply useful idiots, but they are still foot soldiers in the culture war. Maybe you’d enjoy being a slave, or hiding in a hole like a rat, but I will fight back.

Believe me, the founding fathers went to war for FAR LESS than what we are putting up with today. It is only our pathetic ‘peace at any cost’ that’s been spoon-fed to us since birth that allows us to think that surrender is the path to victory.

BTW- I am most decidedly NOT an anarchist. ‘policemen’ and ‘sheriffs’ are not the same thing. The latter is an elected peacekeeper, the former is a hired enforcer with a license to kill.

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oddsock July 23, 2013 at 15:18

Observer & Dire Badger

Ok, cheers, thanks for that. Now the men on the spearhead can decide on what route to take or avoid.

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FTLOTBP July 24, 2013 at 01:06

I like it when I hear guys are getting vasectomies. Less competition for me and my future kids. I’m all about cutting out the competition. MGTOWs just snip and admit defeat. Good for them. More power to them. The NWO says thanks for eliminating yourselves from the gene pool. I say thanks as well.

That said, we should never procreate in the West. That is suicide.

MGTOW has some disturbing parallels to feminism. This makes one apparent:

Feminists do not procreate, so they have to “recruit” new members all the time as they do not repopulate.

MGTOWs do not procreate, so they have to “recruit” new members from the internet.

Now go get snippedz. lolzlolzlolzlolzlolzlolz

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oddsock July 24, 2013 at 03:04


Its helpful and fascinating to read such comments.

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mgtow July 24, 2013 at 16:27


most men do breed, so the modern conveniences continue, but with much less effort for non-breeders. Best of all worlds.

Thanks man, keep up the work and pass on your disposition for working, producing and spending. Suits me.

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jack July 24, 2013 at 23:49

A vasectomy is no good if a man is presumed to be the father of any child born by a woman he’s been seen around with. Men are now paying alimony for children the courts recognise they didn’t father, so how could a vasectomy be proof?

Even if all men decided to have a vasectomy, women would figure out a way. Like asexual reproduction, with men assigned fatherhood arbitrarily. No amount of science or technology can protect you in a legal cesspool. Women will come and get you wherever you hide.

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FTLOTBP July 25, 2013 at 00:37

Keep going your own way, right off the nihilistic cliff. Suits me great. You’ll be – already are – naught but a man waiting to do die. No hope. No purpose. Nothing worth calling a life. No future. No legacy. The Great Books for Men showed us a path once, before they were systematically eliminated by feminists. MGTOW raise no objections to it either I’ll add.

I work and spend, but not in the West. If you are still in the West, YOU are the one still helping prop up the beast. I’m outside of it, having already fled to a non-feminist society that gave me opportunity and a better social atmosphere. If you are in the West, you are helping prop up the beast by being a good little tax/wage salve, allowing guys like me to keep on perpetuating this lifestyle in non-feminist parts of the world.

There’s a whole rest of the world out there…more freedom awaits for those who would get off their asses.

But enjoy your nihilism and the gulags that the feminists will bring out for you in the West! lolzlolzlolzlolzololzolozlolzolz

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jack July 25, 2013 at 01:10


You say I like it when I hear guys are getting vasectomies. Less competition for me and my future kids.

I’d rather say less competition for 3rd World immigrants who breed like rabbits. Your future kids will be engulfed.

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FTLOTBP July 25, 2013 at 02:06

My kids will likely be half-white, half-brown (since white women gave up on the whole wife and mother thing…) They’ll also get at least two languages growing up. Preferably three, but I’m not at that point yet. And lots of real education, not the drone-training that dominates the West.

Engulfed? Nope. They’ll physically blend in more. And they’ll have more knowledge than “poor third world immigrants.” Plus, “first world” resources. But I will not be having a family EVER in the West. Your comments appears to refer to the U.S. or other places where poor and stupid immigrants are encouraged to come, so it does not apply to me. So that leaves a handful of possible first world homes, and dozens of potential homes in the “second world” (working on becoming first world since feminism has almost completely raped “first world” countries down to second world status…) and “third world.” So many opportunities out there, so for all you who scoff, I thank you again. Your arrogance is my gain.

Many of you are arrogant like the feminists – you argue willy-nilly for the fall of Western civilization, but most of you won’t be ready. The Chinese are moving on up very quickly. And they have a pro-man culture. They’ll be more more than happy to take you down. Wish it didn’t have to be so. I was always about saving my country, but it became a blasphemy to even suggest that anything was wrong with the USSA.

If you are in the West, you don’t have to be, and you are feeding the beast. You are paying taxes that props up the beast that allows guys like me to go abroad and be valued for my nationality, living solidly middle class lives instead of slavery in the West, plus companionship with actual females and a life of leisure. I only piss people off because I tell harsh truths.

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jack July 25, 2013 at 11:58

If a judge robs you of your child, you TAKE your child and start making gasoline cocktails to deal with the judge.

The above satement got voted down but it is right on the money! All successful revolutions succeeded because men were willing to die for their cause. The cult of non violence and all that Ghandi stuff is tantamount to making necessity a virtue. Ghandi had millions backing him ready to pounce on the Brits if things went wrong.

Far be it from me to advocate violence aka the use of force. If I wanted to use force I wouldn’t know where to start. I’m a product of my time: a coward.

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oddsock July 25, 2013 at 15:17


“Far be it from me to advocate violence aka the use of force. If I wanted to use force I wouldn’t know where to start. I’m a product of my time: a coward”

But a live coward. “discretion is the better part of valour”

Monty Python ; Run Away Run Away


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Bill Jones July 25, 2013 at 18:51

The obvious lesson, get yourself a second passport.

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jack July 26, 2013 at 03:13

be valued for my nationality, living solidly middle class lives instead of slavery in the West,

What will happen though when your lifeline dries up through expat taxation, anti-tax evasion measures, hyperinflation, non-indexing or withholding of benefits?

When the West implodes, how will those exotic places fare? They might descend into chaos as they have been known to do at the slightest hint of a global slow down.

The fact is, expat pussy hunters are a bit like hippies drop outs. They depend on remaining a tiny minority.

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FTLOTBP July 26, 2013 at 21:20

Even the U.S. daddygov is not so powerful that it can regulate or prevent millions of expats. I am more concerned about other countries upping visa requirements than I am of the U.S. gov on this matter. The U.S. is taking small steps so far to make becoming an expat harder, such as increasing the price of a passport. Visa requirements are going up in the meantime. That is what concerns me more.

When the West implodes, do you want to be in the West? Of course not. Most of the rest of the world will go on when the U.S. collapses. The whole rest of the world has its own problems and things to deal with. It doesn’t look to us and need us every moment. There will be troubles, but in the end, the West is the one going down and out.

As the decline is gradual, I hope to be established in another country by the time it is too late.

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jack July 28, 2013 at 07:34

As the decline is gradual, I hope to be established in another country by the time it is too late.

My fear is that Western governments will force men to cough up based on citizenship. I know a a few pussy/tax havens where I want to retire but I wouldn’t want to have to take the step of becoming a national of those countries. Even if you want to take such a step, it often requires marriage, and that’s what we want to avoid at all costs. There may also be a point where we are not wanted any more in some countries (among other things because of the scrutiny from the feminized West we bring in our wake).

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FTLOTBP July 28, 2013 at 16:54

I believe the old Soviet Union make expatriation very difficult or impossible near its end, didn’t it? So, yes, that the U.S. government would do such things is very plausible. It is still relatively easy to become an expat, but things are slowly being made more difficult, such as with a higher price for a passport now than a few years ago. But things like that are still negligible so far.

Marriage will get you residency. Otherwise, better be rich and willing to invest.

Some places we (white, Anglo, English speaking) will be wanted until the West collapses. China, for example needs tons of English teachers.
If you would rather do entrepreneurial stuff or business, those are possibilities also. A second passport is another possibility that could be very helpful.

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John Regatto July 31, 2013 at 18:57

I had four children and then after the cruel process of court I realized we men mean nothing. The process nearly drove me to suicide. Afterwards, and after realizing what a miserable existence I’d be leading I emigrated overseas, new wife and family in a new country. A country without totalitarian Feminist divorce laws. Very happy now for over 5 years.

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Dire Badger August 3, 2013 at 04:11

a shovel and a bag of lye are cheaper than a vasectomy.

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Dire Badger August 3, 2013 at 04:21


Ghandi is extremely misunderstood. a lot of people say he supported nonviolence… That could not be further from the truth.

He actually supported an armed civilian force, and an armed revolution. He supported revolution, but he CHOSE non-violence as his own, personal method of getting heard, because, at the time, it seemed the most effective way to get his message across.

Believe me, if he could have made more of an impact by grabbing an assault rifle and going all Che Guevera, he would have chosen that route. Read what HE has written, not what ‘pacifists’ and other leeches have written about him.

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Mingtian September 2, 2013 at 20:39


“Being circumcised against my will and living with the resulting permanent life-long disfigurement and lack of sexual sensation has been horrible. I see no need to make it worse.”

Gimme a break. Did you get circumcised in Africa by any chance? Otherwise, it wouldn’t be a ‘disfigurement’. Lack of sensation? Haha, yeah right. I’m circumcised too and mine not only does not look ‘disfigured’, but I can still feel everything and it works just fine.

So either you’re a complete liar, or you got circumcised by a blind doctor in Africa. Give it a rest.

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Anonymous September 1, 2014 at 18:58

Vasectomies might be cheaper than kids, but vasectomies can fail. Mine did. I don’t like kids and sure as hell don’t want them, and after getting a zero sperm count a couple years ago, my tubes re-connected. My baby is due in a month, and I’m screwed. Goodbye freedom, goodbye independence, goodbye money. The mother broke up with me before she knew she was pregnant, so I’m still single, but I’m not off the hook because this kid still needs a dad, part time or not.

Go ahead and get your vasectomy, but never trust it. Always use a backup method of birth control. I just got another vasectomy, and this time I know better than to trust it. But it’s too late, one kid is still one kid too many.

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