On February 28, 1993 federal agents stormed the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, Texas on trumped up gun charges. Four agents and six Davidians were killed in the gunfight that broke out when heavily armed BATF agents attempted to enter the building. Both sides claimed that the other fired first, but one BATF agent said he thought the first gunshots came from the ATF “dog team” sent to kill the Davidians’ dogs (standard operating practice in raids).
After a protracted siege, Janet Reno claimed that the Davidians were raping girls and abusing children, and sent in tanks to flush out the Davidians with gas. A fire broke out, and in the ensuing conflagration 76 additional Davidians, including over 20 children, perished along with leader David Koresh.
Some footage from that fateful day:
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Word was, they could have arrested him on any of his “walks” outside but they chose to do this instead…I don’t know if that’s entirely true but it sounds plausible.
I didn’t see it myself, but the word was that Janet Reno held a press conference shortly after the fiasco claiming to take all responsibility for the deaths etc and excused herself because she had a lunch date with Barbara Striesand. Period.
Watch Bill Hicks documentary on Waco – if you can find it on the internet.
“We are the government! How DARE you defy us?” Seemed to be the attitude at the time. I hate to say it, but Tim McVeigh’s infamouse response did indeed cause them to re-think their tactics. As was seen with the Montana FreedMen just a few years ago. Was David Koresh the apocalyptic looney that the WhiteHouse-Media complex portrayed him as? We might never know.
Are you saying that Ms Reno was a female who should never have been appointed to her position – unfit (like most women it seems) by reason of Vagina? – and how dare any man (David Korresh) stand up to her. Or is it just a sad story about cult-religionists, and an old-style shoot-out?
With the most unfortunate renewal of the horrible VAWA legislation (S-47) today, *every* american man faces his own personal Waco at the hands of an out-of-control Federal Government.
I feel we should be stepping up the efforts here on MRA sites like the Spearhead and AVFM to alert readers to tyrannical pieces of legislation up for vote so we can mobilize effectively. Provide MRAs with appropriate points of contact to make our growing voices heard on Capitol Hill.
Good article on VAWA from American Thinker:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/a_bad_law_on_life_support.html
More on S.47
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d113:S.47:
Contact your Senator:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
Here’s a working link on the status of S.47:
http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.113s47
Coordinated, targeted activism directed towards bill sponsors and co-sponsors, along with your local representatives is an absolute must!
Tell sponsor Sen. Leahy what you think about his latest attack on Men:
https://www.leahy.senate.gov/contact/
The MRM is starting to reach Critical Mass. Twitter and email alerts along with relevant contact links sent out across the manosphere are needed to shutdown VAWA and other horrible misandrist anti-family legislation in its tracks.
Koresh probably was a bit eccentric. He probably did have some illegally converted firearms. But, why not take him when he was outside the compound at their range or something? Why send in “Dog Teams” in the first place. The sad thing is they have not changed their tactics all that much. Look at the Dorner incident. He was a killer; but they burned him on purpose. Look at the raid in Pima County AZ. We can’t have our cops acting like Judge, Jury, and Executioner. What happens when the “Mall Ninjas” bust down the wrong house and shoot somebody’s dog?
Actually, I don’t believe he did. All evidence points to the fact that he ran a tight ship with his gun dealership and kept it above board. I’m fairly certain they went after him primarily because of his religious beliefs, in shameless defiance of the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution.
Well…at the risk of bringing the NSA’s disinfo/cointel commenters down on our heads, there is apparently more to the McVeigh story than meets the eye.
I have not personally checked the Congressional Record but it has been reported that Brigadier General Benton K. Partin’s official report, which has been reported to be in the Congressional Record, states that the Murrah Federal Building was brought down by charges placed inside the building and not by Mr. McVeigh’s misguided efforts.
I did not choose to wear the tin foil hat, it chose me unfortunately after I made the mistake of researching the various surprising events of the last twenty years.
Don’t forget, they (FBI) set the complex on fire. There’s video of it floating around somewhere of a tank busting in walls with its front end, and then you can see a stream of fire from the front end go into the building as if it were a flame thrower.
What they did to Chris Dorner has been SOP since at latest WACO…
Martel is correct, and the FBI never released the cameras they seized that would have caught everything on film.
It makes no sense that Murrah was so destroyed by that truck bomb, yet at most the glass was blown out of the building right on the other side of the street.
There were 3 explosive devices inside the building, one detonated and the other two didn’t. FBI agents and ATF agents got a phone-call that morning not to come into work that day.
A documentary that tells the truth on the government staging of OKC can be found with the name “A Noble Lie.”
@Martel:
Don’t apologize for the truth, too much of the population, including many here and most at Omega Virgin Revolt, have been exposed to disodium hexafluorosilicate all their lives and can’t help their knee-jerk, head-in-the-sand, denials of reality…
I’m sure burning people out has been SOP since people first started living in wood huts. What’s new is lying about it on TV.
Dark times ahead.
We live in a time when it’s difficult to judge the truth without first hand experience of events. Photos, videos and certainly the written word can all lie.
I am confident I have a good grasp of the “truth,” but only a fool is 100% certain of anything in the human realm.
I would prefer that anyone reading my comments look at the source material himself and makes up his own mind. That is why I use a didactic approach. For seekers after the truth, here is a little more on the Murrah Federal Building.
OT
Bill, will you do an article about food sometime? I really liked the previous ones about kefir. Tell us your recipes!
It was gov’t forces 10 years ago and Adam Lanza 3 months ago. Blaming Lanza and forces is a little like blaming guns etc. One problem was appointing a person who was not up to the job, simply because she was a woman the other was a bad mother and female dominated positions. In both cases the gov’t (females) won’t investigate the real causes, let alone address them. But why should they? They are the cause of it.
“The more things change, the more they stay the same”
Unknown-
But wait, maybe we have improved. Ten years ago it was the burning to death of 21 children, 10 years later it was the gunning down of only 20 children. In about 200 more years we’ll be down to zero children.
Everytime that the ATF would say something it was eventually proven to be false. An example was when they denied that their helicopters shot at the compound thus endangering the kids. Pictures that the children drew of their bedrooms showed bullet holes on the ceilings.
David Koresh was a pedophile and a nut case. Yet, it wasn’t clear that he violated any Federal Law and whatever crime(s) he may have committed was for the State of Texas to deal with and not the Federal Government. The county sheriff knew him very well and even talked to him early that day before the ATF came. The ATF and FBI didn’t want to work with the local enforcement authorities on purpose. This was a show of force by the federal government to prove that they could push people around. They simply were trying it first on a character who few people would care to defend.
Of course I meant 20 years, so it will take 400 years.
Only the most secure GOP congressmen voted against it.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/senate-races/285583-most-potential-gop-senate-candidates-vote-against-vawa
I can’t imagine the balls it must have took to vote AGAINST “keeping our women safe from violence” in such a partisan/war-on-women environment. Defininetly opposition ammo for the 2014 election season. There goes another $600,000,000 added to our debt per year just to keep a few thousand wymyns studies majors employed. It’s hopeless to fight feminist pork as long as women, mangina’s and white-knights will support politicians that vote for it.
We’re adding almost $38,000 to the debt per second. What’s another $190 bucks to protect women from getting beaten by men?
There is no physical evidence of any firearms illegally converted to full auto by the Davidians at Mt. Carmel. During the trial of some of the few survivors, held in San Antonio, a box of guns was introduced as illegal machineguns, but no inspection of them was done in the course of the trial. The government said they were full auto, but did not prove it.
As part of the Congressional hearings into Waco, the NRA requested of the Department of Justice an inspection of the firearms. DOJ granted this, however with the stipulation that none of the alleged machineguns could be disassembled in any way. They could be looked at, even picked up, but no taking them apart. NRA hired Failure Analysis Associates to perform non-invasive testing. FA, which was one of the firms involved in analysis of the first space shuttle disaster, decided to use X-ray inspection on the alleged machineguns.
The Clinton Department of Justice immediately rescinded the privilege of inspection, and so far as I know no one outside of the FBI has ever been allowed to inspect the alleged machineguns with X-rays. Why does this matter? Because an X-ray exam of, for example, an AR-15 lower receiver would determine the presence or absence of the key part required to make it shoot in full auto mode – the disconnector. X-ray inspection would also determine if the trigger and hammer had been altered in order to make a slam-fire possible.
An X-ray inspection, therefore, would have provided real, expert, evidence either in support of the government’s claim of illegal conversion, or in denial of that claim. Now, why would the government not want that inspection done? An X-ray examination would not have altered the metal in any way, it would have not damaged the firearms use as evidence. What it would have likely done, though, is prove or disprove whether the firearms in question were converted.
And to this day, the DOJ has not allowed anyone to actually do that examination. Therefore, this strongly suggests that there were not any illegally converted firearms in the Mt. Carmel complex. And given that was the original justification for the BATF raid 20 years ago, such a fact would have had very serious implications for BATF and the FBI.
The statute of limitations on perjury, on evidence tampering, on conspiracy, etc. have all run out. However, there is no statute of limitations on the crime of murder. There are government agents who are likely quite aware of that fact, in a personal way, and it is in their interests that some evidence, and facts, be kept secret for a long time to come.
VAWA now costs $660 million a year. From what I understand, the newly reauthorized Senate version (passed by The House today) will create an additional $650 million in funding over 5 years to states that have the VAWA programs.
Now is a great time for men to contact their US Senators and Congressman to express their concerns.
Also, men should find out if their state participates in these VAWA programs and proceed accordingly to the people who are responsible.
It’s ok if they do the same every day in Iraq, but suddenly it’s not ok if they do that in your own country ? Nice hypocrisy. You commend them when they come back from “abroad” after killing families after families of foreign patriots defending their countries, and you hope these “good guys” gets medals and high praises (“thanks for your service!”… even though you should not thank them since you’re paying their JOBS with your own taxes…), but then suddenly you turn in disgust if the same people do the same inside your own country (and the same people who killed “males in milirary age” in Iraq then point a gun to your face demanding you leave your home after Wifey said so…).
You should always, always, always, always celebrate the “Good Guys” who wear the State’s Costume using guns and showing how tough they are. If not, you’re unpatriotic and anti-american…
Sometime’s I think time is the enemy of any movement. People forget over time and the PTB count on that.
I remember the Waco Massacre quite vividly. Yes, the Davidian’s were a offshoot religious sect (and I’m an atheist, so I don’t have a dog in that fight) which made them easily demonized (are you, my brother MRM’s paying attention to that point? Easily demonized means easily eliminated with public support). After the Ruby Ridge fiasco, where the ATF tried to entrap Randy Weaver, killed his son and his wife (Lon Horriuchi, the murdering bastard, was going for a two-fer but didn’t kill Kevin Harris) they needed a public image remake.
Enter “Operation Showtime” to ‘save face’ for the ATF. Yep, Showtime, that is what the ATF called it and when they descended on the Davidian’s , and they had the press in tow. But the ATF pulled a SNAFU and when exiting the ‘cattle trailer’s ‘ they arrived at Koresh’s residence a few of them got their just end.
Like Dornan, the “ATF used pyrotechnic ferret rounds against the Davidian’s to deliver CS gas knowing full well the fire hazard that posed, with the same purpose. Burn them out. And as Welmer has stated, it is a tried and true siege technique that has been used for centuries.
Those who fail to learn the lesson’s of history are doomed to repeat them . . .
Adam Lanza kills 20 kids and 6 adults and the government uses it as an excuse to take our guns away.
The ATF uses tanks and incendiary gas to kill 20 children 56 adults but they see no reason why they should be restricted.
We don’t need guns for hunting. We need them to keep the government in it’s place.
By left/liberal reasoning, we should ban tanks and tear gas– for the children!!– even if it only saves one life.
Now is a great time for men to contact their US Senators and Congressman to express their concerns.
The time was in 2011 when it first came up for reauthorization – and then keep the pressure on. Many did, such as S.A.V.E. and a smattering of MRA’s. If you’re against VAWA you’re FOR violence against women. You’re a woman beater by association. It’s a lose/lose argument.
What’s telling is that the White House wants to legalize Gay Marriage because it violates the equal protection clause–and in practically the same breath will sign off on legislation that protects WOMEN ONLY.
The heirarchy of special interest victims:
Women
Children
Blacks
Hispanics (preferably illegal)
Other sub-minority groups (bonus points for Muslims)
LBGTQIA
Animals (such as Dogs, Cats and Ponies)
Misc other
Hetero-normative privilaged white males (preferably Christian)
Koresh told local LE that any time the Feds wanted to search, they could, they did not even need a warrant.
Maybe Koresh was a pedophile; maybe he wasn’t. But, the father of one of the girls he was accused of banging said she was in California visiting him at the time of the alleged sex acts.
Accusing undesirables of pedophilia is a very effective activity, and need not be true. We will never know if he was or not, but the government saying he was, is pretty useless. In fact, my own theory is they went in with force, because they expected to allege the girls had been raped, and wanted complete control of everything. If they had gone in by permission, and found nothing, they would have no excuse to confiscate the girls and allege rape.
The Feds alleged they did not use anything flammable. The Texas Rangers produced shells of flammable gas materials fired into the compound that day. Judge Smith, one of the sorriest judges in modern times, ordered the Texas Rangers to turn over all materials, including their investigation notes, and keep nothing, a strange thing to do to a police investigation. However, he forgot to order them to erase it all from the Internet, so a lot of people (blush) frantically downloaded and archived it all.
Before the Waco massacre, people in the so-called compound tried to leave, which is what the Feds said they wanted. When they did, the Feds fired flash-bangs at them to force them back in. They said this was to pressure the people inside to all come out at once. Common sense says you let everyone come out who wants to come out, and when there are few, the remaining folks may lose spirit and come out.
As far as who fired first, yes, the Feds shot the dogs. Alas, the dogs were BETWEEN the Feds and the house, which meant they were shooting at the house.
As far as OKC, seismographs showed two major explosions, several seconds apart. The Feds said, oh, goshie, the vibrations simply wandered around, down there, below the earth for several seconds than came out later. Blechh!
A law firm had a recorder running during a meeting just down the street. There were two plain explosions several seconds a part. Many people (blush) have the audio archived, permanently. Never forget!
Power of explosive materials reduced by the cube of the distance from the materials. Reinforced beams such as used in that office building (documents show the beams were inspected after construction and met standards) cannot be cut except by very high velocity explosive, touching the beams.
Nitrogen fertilizer is a very slow explosive. If you put it on the beams themselves, it is unlikely they would cut anything. From 150 feet, breaking windows is what you would expect.
Also, General Partin noted in the short time he was allowed to look, that beams which were cut, were staggered. That is, beams closer to the truck were not cut, and beams farther away were cut. This is physically impossible if the only explosives were the truck contents.
OKC citizens had an ad hoc committee which met and recorded what people know. For example, a number of people had seen Tim McVey standing in front of the building earlier. Police refused to talk to anyone who said they had information inconsistent with the one-man bomb theory. This included several people who saw the truck pull up and park, and two men got out of it, not one.
Unfortunately, the OKC bombing was also an inside job, but the Mossad did not pull that one off….it was all on Uncle Sam.
“girls are being harmed” = instant justification for a massacre.
Waco was a chance for the ATF to show off to get more money and look good against a bunch of religious wackos with guns. Who likely had done nothing wrong. The Feds murdered those people, plain and simple.
Wiki post on a Waco documentary, also check out “Waco: A new revelation”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco:_The_Rules_of_Engagement
@ 3d shooter
Horiuchi is definitely a piece of work. IMHO a classic violence wonk/soldier of fortune groupie. IE Exactly the kind of guy you don’t want behind a sniper rifle. If he wasn’t a cop he’d probably be a good psychological candidate for a son of sam or mass shooting event. Unfortunately the badge gives guys like him a legal hunting license.
A lot of people don’t realize he was at Waco as well as Ruby Ridge and more than likely added to his kill count. One documentary I saw had footage from FLIR showing muzzle flashes and brass was found around his hide. An HRT sniper swore under oath he heard weapons fire from Horiuchi’s position during the siege. Of course he later recanted under gov pressure.
I’ve been hoping some of these big doc leaks from the government archives would blow the lid off of that particular dumpster. No such luck though.