I watched Kathryn Bigelow’s movie about killing Osama bin Laden last night. Although it is quite good, as an American with a conscience, I didn’t find it a particularly encouraging or comfortable film. I heard conflicting accounts concerning whether or not the movie defends or criticizes torture, but after seeing the entire thing it’s pretty clear that it’s the former. The heroes, if you can call them that, make use of some pretty awful techniques, and there’s no sense that any of them did even a bit of soul-searching over it. The message is clear: the ends justified the means. However, I suspect this is not the director’s voice speaking (she approached the issue mechanically rather than enthusiastically), but rather screenplay writer Mark Boal’s.
Although I’d rather not dwell on the torture for too long, it came off as essentially pornographic, which, given Abu Ghraib’s house of horrors, is probably a fairly accurate depiction of the practice. The interrogator, who goes by “Dan” (played by Jason Clarke) introduces hero Maya to torture immediately. At first she’s shy – a torture virgin if you will – but it doesn’t take long before she’s having a beefy officer smack her subjects around. Dan comes off as a vicious Irish gangster who looks like he’d be right at home on the streets of Belfast circa 1978, kneecapping people for the sheer fun of it.
Perhaps people who work in the front line of this business are natural sadists — I’m not sure, but in the film it didn’t seem that compassion for the victims of 9/11 was what drove the agents so much as the “hunt.” For foreigners who see the movie, I’m afraid Americans are going to come off as a bunch of psychopaths, which is too bad, but sadly that’s the face we tend to show the rest of the world these days. The only major character who appeared to be a normal human being throughout the film was Hakim, a CIA officer played by Fares Fares. None of the white characters display normal human emotional responses given the circumstances, with the possible exception of CIA station chief Joseph Bradley (Kyle Chandler). Additionally, they swear like sailors, using filthy language constantly. James Gandolfini of The Sopranos plays the CIA director, further impressing on the viewer that the CIA operates much like a criminal gang. Although some may read the above as criticism, it is entirely possible that Bigelow’s portrayal of these people is accurate — if a lowly divorce court judge can go home without any distress over removing children from loving parents, it is likely that people working in the CIA feel little to no discomfort over killing people, and may actually enjoy it.
As for the hero, she is a complete fabrication. “Maya” never existed. Some of the characters, however, represented real people. For example, Maya’s friend Jessica, the woman who got blown up in Afghanistan by a double agent, was based on a real female CIA officer who was really blown up (she made a fatal mistake). However, there was no skinny young woman who took charge and personally sealed the deal with her dogged determination and force of will, but a lot of people who see the film are going to leave with that impression. Although the character Maya may have been the necessary ingredient for creating a major hit with widespread appeal, she detracts significantly from the credibility of the film.
Overall, despite the flaws, it’s a well-made film. Bigelow is clearly a pro. The depiction of the assault on the compound brings the operation to life without indulging in any unnecessary fireworks. In fact, Bigelow was very clinical about this scene. The slow, deliberate nature of the assault added significantly to suspense. The emotional detachment of the SEAL operators as they despatched their targets was chilling, but after all it is what they do for a living, and I’m fairly sure that’s how they approach these tasks.
I have to hand it to Kathryn Bigelow for doing a stellar job — the movie is well worth watching. However, it depicts Americans and our government in a far from flattering light, and leaves the viewer confused as to whether this is the kind of thing we ought to cheer about. Here, I think Bigelow leaves it up to us. Rather than agonize over the moral ambiguity of our war on terror, she simply leaves it in plain view, like a car wreck we can’t help but stare at dumbly as we slowly drive by. It’s an interesting approach, but far from heartwarming or reassuring.
{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }
So, it sounds like the only thing accurate is the assault. The rest of it is a typical left wing fantasy. No wonder they held it up until after the election; it wouldn’t have helped Obama, and maybe would have hurt him.
I’m not saying that the CIA guys aren’t like that; I’m just saying that the ones I’ve worked with aren’t… They’re about as white bread middle class as you can get. And by the way, water boarding doesn’t work like that. And that’s all I’ll say….
Jessica Chastain, who played the main character, has responded to interviews concerning whether or not the lead female was based on a real person. It has been explained that yes, she is a real agent, but she has been working undercover and thus cannot be identified. Her co-workers were interviewed about her for the film, but she herself was never contacted for security purposes. Apparently the real woman is not particularly well liked (nor disliked), excels at her job, but is not a team player and has been passed over for promotion because of it in the past.
Bin Laden had been dead for years, they just dumped some poor bastard in the ocean, a man whose name we will never know.
Zero Dark Shitty From HollyWood is nothing but drivel and fantasy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212851/Has-Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-seven-years–U-S-Britain-covering-continue-war-terror.html
I refuse to spend my money to support Hollywood movies anymore, especially ones that promote the political propaganda of the government.
Movies of this type would be made by the Ministry of Propaganda if there was an official war going on. The fact that this movie promotes the idea that women should be doing the same masculine military jobs as men is further justification for me to avoid such garbage.
I have no desire to see this movie – doubly so after reading your depressing review.
Torture as official policy of the United States of America? I shake my head every time I remember this. The unsophisticated and uncurious put on the mask of hard-nosed realism and indulge their brutal propensities. This all seems so strangely familiar……from stories told of our 20th century enemies.
“One nasty morning Comrade Stalin discovered that his favorite pipe was missing. Naturally, he called in his henchman, Lavrenti Beria, and instructed him to find the pipe. A few hours later, Stalin found it in his desk and called off the search. “But, Comrade Stalin,” stammered Beria, “five suspects have already confessed to stealing it.””
Torture’s Long Shadow…..The Washington Post
“.. “Dan” (played by Jason Clarke) introduces hero Maya to torture immediately. At first she’s shy – a torture virgin if you will – but it doesn’t take long ..”
I wouldn’t get too bent and self-flagellating about the fact that all bureaucracies, since the first agricultural states, have this (to them) essential component in their personnel.
Dull, dependent, unreflecting people, who are capable of any abomination, as long as their line manager/overseer/commissar says it’s OK, and indeed necessary for the greater good. Their joy is in the fulfilment and compliance with their masters’ desires.
Torture schmorture. In every land, thoughout history and prehistory. You’re being none-too-subtly inured to its grotesque inevitability by, for example, the unlovely Jack Bauer in “24″.
Americans are not immune. Especially the quiet ones.
By the way, what’s Lindy up to nowadays? Still fighting the Good Fight?
“None of the white characters display normal human emotional responses given the circumstances”
But the brown characters do. I call that anti-white propaganda.
Pure propaganda in the tradition of Leni Riefenstahl.
with hollywood being as left as it is i’m not surprised the movie paints the military out as it does.
i KNOW team guys. i pray everyone reading this blog never has to deal with what the extreme muslims would love to do to you and your families.
the team guys keep you blissfully unaware of said horror.
I can tell you many of them are like that. They are sadists, many of them at least; and they will kill at the slightest order to do so. Kids included; they are off the chain because they must follow orders without the slightest hesitation.
When I was being screened, I was asked the question that I think failed me in the end (disqualified in the operator’s mind); can I kill someone.
I said sure, if someone is going to shoot at me, or try to kill me.
He said no; I don’t care who it is, when I say go can you kill someone?
I hesitated; and I was done.
They will never betray their “brothers!” Kids, women, old, young, male, black, white, alien with pinkish polka-dots and a pleasant demeanor. When ordered and given the green light; you had better be able to take them or you are dead.
Osama bin Laden’s CIA designation was “Tim Osmond”. Osama was a great partisan fighter for the U.S. to use during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, but once it became our “strategic interest” to control the opium trade, Mr. Osmond suddently became the Bogyman to wave in the faces of the American people. Give up your freedom for…security. Otherwise OSAMA might git’ ya!
The clincher, for me at least, in the whole sad story is the treasonous “liquidation” of the Navy SEAL’s as a means to ensure that dead men tell no tales. If I wanted another trip into a dystopian Disneyland, I would go back in the army and volunteer (again) for duty in Iraq. Been there, t-shirt, bullshit. So fuck the propaganda and Hollywood in general. Bring the troops home, then put them on the Mexican border.
/soapbox OFF
The impression you had of the American cold brutality is the impression that was desired. Hollywood hates America and hates you.
Compare that to the old Chuck Norris Delta force movies with the raw raw America theme.
“Perhaps people who work in the front line of this business are natural sadists…”
I’ve heard this about prison guards, too. One story was that when a local prison guard was temporarily taken off duty for being suspected of abusing prisoners, the howls of animals were heard from his apartment.
Way off topic:
http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/increasing-number-of-japanese-men-opting-for-bachelorhood
Japanese men talk about why they have no desire to get married. Some good comments too!
Dannyfrom504: “the team guys keep you blissfully unaware of said horror.”
And how do they do that? By killing people in Afghanistan? Get real the whole thing is exactly like Vietnam just one big FUBAR that we’re paying Trillions for. And yet another justification for piling on even more laws that don’t do anything but oppress US citizens.
As I’ve progressively fallen out of love with the United States over the last 12 years, one of the most depressing realizations is that this country has plenty of people who will torture and kill for a paycheck.
There’s a callous, anti-intellectual side to the American character that’s capable of elevating a Hitler or Pol Pot to power. I’m starting to see that any future conflict will be between those who believe in Constitutional government and those who don’t. Hence the demonization of conservative white males, the only Americans likely to defend the Constitution as a group.
I’m nostalgic for the good ol’ blue pill days when I still believed in American exceptionalism.
In other news, I have just joined the NRA for the first time. FWIW.
@Kyo
Funny. I’ll post something on it. Those Japanese guys were amusingly frank about it.
What’s interesting about this movie is how Hollywood responded to it. Liberals DO NOT want to admit that torture played a part in capturing bin Laden, that it was effective – but by all accounts it was. Torture is mean making America looks like a bully, and terrorists are really misunderstood victims.
Once a celebrated heroine in Hollywood as the first female director to win an Academy Award – for “The Hurt Locker” which was average at best – but this wasn’t a Nora Ephron RomCom, this was a hot chick (James Cameron’s ex-wife) doing a guy movie about war. The pressure was on the Academy to find a female director (there aren’t that many good ones to choose from), and so they chose her. While the gliterati celebrated “Women’s Equality in Film” all week, Mizz Biglelow hardly said a thing about it. Not even a gratuitious “GRRLS ROCK!”.
Her blatant lack of recognition this year was punishment for the torture aspect of ZDT, connecting it to bin Laden’s death and also not speaking out more about “women’s rights” as directors.
Ben Affleck’s film “Argo” also wandered off the plantation of Hollywood politics a little to far, so they shafted him as well.
As mentioned Maya, or Jessica Chastain, was a real agent who really headed the case. She was the one who oversaw the tracking of the couriers via cellphone and she got a lot of push back for this approach. No one believed bin Laden was hiding in plain sight. The Seal Team 6 members spoke highly of her.
There are women like her and Bigelow that are good at what they do, but they don’t toot their own horns because they’re busy excelling. All we ever hear about are feminists behind feminist causes. Truly competent and forthright women want nothing to do with feminism.
It’s not possible,I saw Osama just yesterday in Dearborn MI.
Gunner-
Ok. Enjoy the bliss of ignorance. Have. Glass if wine for me.
Have you ever dealt with the extremists? I’m guessing no.
Go back to your yard work and sit behind the lines. These cats HATE you. And will do anything to kill you and those you love.
There’s a callous, anti-intellectual side to the American character that’s capable of elevating a Hitler or Pol Pot to power.
Obama is teeing things up nicely for a tyrannical despot to take over post-collapse. Kinda like Lenin did for Stalin. The shift to the Left in America is considered “intellectual”, while anyone who disgarees with them are “anti-intellectual”. It’s the Alinsky approach to critical theory; that there must always exist Victims and Villians to gain political power through emotional manipulation.
America is the Villian, the rest of the world are it’s victims.
Obama is a victim of Republicans in Congress.
Our children are victims of the Gun Lobby.
Women are victims of Republicans that want to “deny them access to health care” (ie – govt paid abortion).
Terrorists are victims of American hegemony abroad and support of the “Zionist State”.
Inner city blacks are victims of guns and drugs that the government smuggles into their communities.
Gays are victims of anti-gay marriage religious groups.
Transexuals are victims of gays and lesbians that don’t want them in their group.
Lance Armstrong is a victim of “doping culture” in biking.
The Hetero-normative Privilaged White Male is a victim of being villianized by all the victim groups.
The world is going MAD.
No one is responsible for themselves any more.
You’re part of the problem as far as I’m concerned. You question every aspect of cultural Marxism yet regurgitate the “terr’ists are ebil” bullshit wholesale. That smug little mask of the faux hard-nosed realist is totally repugnant. There’s no legitimate case for torture. Information gained through torture is unreliable and worse, torture creates committed enemies where none previously existed. Of course if your goal is promoting the highly profitable endless war biz while quietly depriving the American people of their Constitutional rights, torture is the shit.
There was a time when the USA could make a case for holding the moral high ground. No longer. What do you call a man who watches videotaped torture sessions in the safety of his Washington office? Donald Rumsfeld? Dick Cheney? Or a sick-minded pervert? I don’t call them American, that’s for sure.
You have no imagination. What would you do if the Chinese were running armored patrols through Boulder, where you say you live. Skip out and hand them a flower?
Yeah, yeah. Many of us have been where you were and the bottom line is it’s all bullshit. The world is always full of enemies – if you go looking for them. They’ll still be there in Afghanistan – with no capacity to hurt us – long after we’ve run off with our tails between our legs. And before you start in on 9/11, let me remind you that 15 of the 19 alleged highjackers were Saudi, one was Egyptian, one Lebanese and two were from the UAE.
And if those muzzies are so ebil, how come we let millions of them immigrate inside our borders? That’s the real threat, just ask the Belgians.
You’re a pawn in a global game, an enforcer for US business interests. Bigger men than you – and me – figured that out a long time ago.
Bill, if you need any background info on what those guys (or the commenters) are talking about, go ahead and ask. For example, not all Spearhead readers will be aware that, for example, in traditional Japanese marriages the husband hands over control of his entire salary to his wife, who then gives him an “allowance” of about $5-10 per day, from which the husband buys lunch or beer. Also housekeeping isn’t quite the chore it is when you live in a 400-square-foot apartment. Et cetera. And an average Japanese woman has a much better attitude, is much better dressed, and is much more pleasant to be around than someone you might meet in the West!
There was a time when the USA could make a case for holding the moral high ground. No longer.
The moral high ground argument became irrelevant the day those planes ran into the twin towers of the world trade center. When they launched a sneak attack on our civilian population within the borders of our sovereign land – “all’s fair in war” was officially enacted.
I really don’t give a f*ck about how America is percieved globally, as nothing we do seems to rectify international opinion. And I certianly don’t give a f*ck about some jihadist made to feel the sensation of drowning if it means lives (perhaps your own) will be saved. I’m really sorry if the whole experience was uncomfortable and a little scary for them. If we gave them a Care Bear to hold afterward, would that make you feel better?
The enemies of the US adjusted to their tactics of battle to “terrorize” the civilians into submission, or at least inconvenience us. So we inturn adjusted our tactics to defend ourselves against them. Moral highground is relative when your enemy wants you and your wife and children dead. They changed the rules of modern warfare at their own peril, and got a few lucky shots in. We get it now.
I don’t recall you ever mentioning your military service so if I missed that, fill me in.
Torture serves no legitimate military or intelligence purpose, other than in the never-actually-happens made-for-Hollywood scenario of the ebil jihadi with his finger on the nuclear button. In real life all it does is turn our military and our intelligence services into playgrounds for psychopaths and sadists.
So is this the America you want to live in? An America of endless foreign wars, remote-control killing, secret prisons, torture and murder. I don’t.
Talking of cranky muslim extremists, we’ve got shedloads. Many of them despite being born and (forcibly) educated here, appear to be unable to speak the insular lingua franca, English, to any comprehensible degree, and give every impression of being in fact entirely ineducable, preferring to sit en-masse on the dole in their (self-imposed) ghettoes, blaming the racist English taxpayer for their river of imaginary troubles.
A rich seam of entitled, spiteful and above all idle resentment, all too easily cranked up by the constant parade of inflammatory, illiterate hedge-preachers imported straight from Dumbfuckistan, no questions asked (along with the pockmarked subnormal goat-herds and wall-eyed, snaggletoothed peasant girl-children so necessary to their “culture” of breeding with their nearest blood relatives, or something).
Apparently the nation is in dire need of their ineffable skills and qualifications, as the government constantly berating us “bigoted” locals, and it’s their Human Right, apparently, so like it or lump it.
And occasionally they do something nasty, such as the 2005 Tube bombings. Those cretins were all homegrown. Leeds mostly. Not far from where one son is at uni. You should take a tour of somewhere like Harehills, say, if ever given the opportunity. A curious feeling, being an unwanted alien in the very lands (one side of) your family has worked, bled for, and sometimes owned, since recorded history began.
Not like the fairly integrated and urbane and, I must admit, not numerous (at least not overwhelmingly so) muslims of the city where I now live (often highly educated Iranians and Iraqis, Egyptians, that sort of thing, many political refugees since childhood).
I’ve not yet been told to clear off from any of these grim places in the course of my business, with the baffling information that “this is a muslim area!”, like some. I’m not sure how I’d react. The nearest I’ve come was in what is now a suburb of Manchester. Talk about getting the evils, just for walking around the streets that only exist because my grandfather’s grandfather’s father worked his way up from handloom weaver to opening a mill in the fields there by the river, employing hundreds. The world turned upside down, my masters, the world is turned upside down.
Chris Morris nailed them good in “Four Lions”, by the way.
Here’s what George Dubya Bush said about our enemies, the 9/11 hijackers: “There’s a lot of really good people here [in Saudi Arabia]. Look, you can’t deny the fact that some, a majority, of the terrorists came from Saudi, but you should not condemn an entire society based upon the actions of a handful of killers.”
So instead George Dubya Bush invaded Iraq, a country whose leader, Saddam Hussein, was despised by Osama bin Laden and that had nothing whatosever to with “Al Qaeda.” And Al Qaeda, as I’m sure you recall, is an organization that was created by the CIA to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. And just to keep things moving, to this day the USA indirectly finances Al Qaeda in Afghanistan through our payments to the Pakistani intelligence service, ISI. The ISI was in routine contact with bin Laden, btw. Yup, them terr’ists are ebil.
I feel bad for these Kids coming home Now , They have No clue . Ten years from now are Government will be all nicey nicey with the same people we are killing now . Then They will saturate are Country with angry agents Looking to track down the soldiers that killed there Brothers.
We have seen this before in the war on drugs , Those Psychopaths never forget . I seen Steven Colbere running a hit list ( hero’s)on the bottom of his broadcast , I almost fell over .
Remember One mans hero is another mans Murderer . This is how stupid Journalists are . Have a parade and provide them with a list .
Bin Laden died in late 2011. Sybal Edmunds even testified in front of congress that he worked for the CIA until the time of 9-11. Madeline Albright said we have is body on ice, as did Walter Cronkite. Even CBS did a report where he was at a hospital in Pakistan getting dialysis. People on dialysis do not live more than 10-15 years and he had kidney problems in the 80s. Even if he did live in a cave a dialysis machine is half the size of a full size refrigeator and need power to run and you won’t find that in the hills of Afghanistan. He also was to feelbe to fire a gun like the report says. Bin Laded was the “Emanual Goldstein” of his day.
Yup. “THEY,” our enemies, being Osama bin Laden, born a SAUDI citizen, 15 other SAUDIS, an EGYPTIAN, a LEBANESE and two citizens of the UNITED ARAB EMIRATES.
Do you notice anything about that list of our enemies who, as you say, ran planes into the World Trade Center? Put those critical thinking skills to work.
So is this the America you want to live in? An America of endless foreign wars, remote-control killing, secret prisons, torture and murder. I don’t.
As I said, we had to adapt to the tactic of terrorism.
Evil is as evil does. It’s not preferrable, it’s necessary.
The enemy is a small roving band of devoted jihadists not associated with any government or land, but rather an ideology – that the West is evil incarnate, a seething sodom and gomorrah that must be destroyed and rebuilt into an Islamic Utopia.
The Taliban is an off-shoot of the original Mujahideen that America supported in the war with Russia. The Al Qaeda organization was founded AFTER the defeat of Russia in Afghanistan where bin Laden recruited from several Middle Eastern countries. He later relocated to Sudan. He did not declare war on America (the head of the snake) until the early 1990′s.
Bush invaded Iraq (with the support of almost all the US) because several intelligence agencies and Iraqis claimed he had or was working on a nuclear bomb, and also had chemical weapons, which he had used on Kurds in the past. It was mistake, but we were looking for blood after 9/11 – and our only way to respond was conventional warfare on the least liked and most vulnurable despot in the region. And now Iraq is aligning with Iran…the wicked webs we weave.
Don’t worry though Charles, America is finished defending people from murderous dictators and invasions from other countries. We’re letting France or somebody else do it from now on. We’ve got “free” healthcare to pay for now, just like Canada and the UK.
CM-
Pussy. I live to fight. Go take your kids to their soccer game and get back to watching MSM.
I’m officially done with this site.
It was reported at the time that George Dubya Bush did not grasp there were two kinds of muzzies in Iraq until after we invaded. And that the more secular Sunni muzzies of Saddam Hussein’s tribe, the ones we were attacking, were our natural allies. And that the Shia, the majority in Iraq that had been suppressed by Uncle Saddam, would line up with Iran as soon as Saddam’s boot was off their necks.
I wouldn’t call that a web exactly, more of a cosmic clusterfuck. You didn’t need to be an Islamic scholar, which I am certainly not, to predict this. Five minutes with Wikipedia would be enough.
And now there’s the oh-so-regrettable death of the Libyan ambassador, which appears to have something to do with the administration arming Libyan rebels with anti-aircraft missiles and other goodies. And the Libyan rebels are…..wait for it…..Al Qaeda.
So in Afghanistan we’re fighting Al Qaeda while also funding Al Qaeda via Pakistan’s ISI. And in Libya we’ve provided weapons directly to Al Qaeda including the ever-popular terr’ist favorite – shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles.
So Al Qaeda is our enemy AND our ally. We’re fighting them AND funding and arming them. Got it? Simple really. Though Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton does seem to have had a little trouble wrapping her head around it. But a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, I always say.
And for the British, our allies, bravely fighting Al Qaeda terr’ists in Afghanistan, this is the reward.
In another life I served on secondment to the Royal Anglian Regiment as a Company 2i/c.
@keyster,
Kathryn Bigelow on her Oscar accepting speech thanked:
“Women and Men in the military”, so sure there is no hint of GRRRL Power.
Expect more movies about brave women taking charge in the military, after all they can’t do much else in military other than giving orders, so they will have to be put in charge.
Okay, but it’s a movie… Hollywood isn’t know for its accuracy.
keyster – “The enemy is a small roving band of devoted jihadists not associated with any government or land, but rather an ideology”
Flatly untrue! These ‘devoted jihadists’ are openly supported by national governments. The Taliban is backed, funded, armed, and created by Pakistan, and many of these “jihadists” are funded by Saudi oil wealth.
You really have no clue what you’re talking about, as usual.
Flatly untrue! These ‘devoted jihadists’ are openly supported by national governments. The Taliban is backed, funded, armed, and created by Pakistan, and many of these “jihadists” are funded by Saudi oil wealth.
What government openly supports Al Qaeda, besides maybe Somalia?
And the Taliban is supported by mostly Opium crops – and was not “created by Pakistan” (talking about “facts”!).
The jihadist ideology and terrorist tactics don’t need to be “supported” by anyone, because the war of terror is done on the cheap. You guys that think the USA is the REAL enemy of the world are simply nuts. Just wait until all Hell breaks loose in the Middle East and everyone starts begging the cruel USA to intervene, while millions of innocents are slaughtered…and then we’re blamed for NOT helping.
Give a man a knife and he will cut something, take away his knife and he will be cut by the world around him. There will always be people who like to inflict pain. A minority, but a persistent minority. They find their places in society like everyone else.
I don’t know how many times I have to say it. The war on terror is completely fabricated. It was designed to justify all these military charades in the Middle East and the creation of a massive police state at home to keep you “safe” from terrorists. The police state is now turning away from foreign terrorists and focusing on liberty loving Americans so they can’t resist the coming tyranny.
Osama Bin Laden is/was an intelligence asset of the United States and other western nations. He was the best boogey man money could buy.
The Israeli Mossad did 9/11 !!!
I find it hard to believe that the US only started using torture as a tool during the Bush administration. Or that such behavior is either unique or special to it on planet Earth. During the whole Cold War, we just asked questions nicely?