Raising Daughters

by W.F. Price on October 1, 2012

Either there’s a dearth of men with daughters in the MRM or father’s rights scene, or they don’t often mention it. I’m sure it’s the latter, because I know that a lot of men concerned with fathers’ rights have daughters. In fact, given that the average divorced/separated father has more than 1.0 children, I’m certain that more than half of them do.

So, it looks like a lot of men with daughters are afraid to open up about it, and although it’s sad, I can understand why. Personally, I think it’s too bad that it’s come this, because there’s nothing at all wrong with having a daughter. In fact, daughters are a great source of happiness and fulfillment for fathers, just like sons. The really shameful thing is that today fathers often feel that having a daughter is something to fear, and unfortunately there’s a good reason for that. Having a daughter can be a real liability in a custody dispute, because men are very often falsely accused of hurting or molesting them.

However, I often see men blaming fathers of daughters as well — for our problems with feminists. They say that we are white knights whose only purpose is to put other men down for our daughters. Yes, evidently we fathers of daughters are so powerful that we can oppress the rest of men very effectively. Instead of training our daughters to be perfect wives for these guys, we’re setting them up to be the next version of Hillary Rodham Clinton…

Sometimes, if you have a daughter it seems you can’t win either way. On the one side you have the feminists sharpening their knives, eagerly awaiting the opportunity to call you a pervert or brute, and on the other you have men complaining that it’s your fault if your daughter doesn’t act like their idealized version of a woman.

Well, I’ve got news for these guys. As a father of a daughter, you’ve got precious little power over your daughter’s life. You’re lucky if you can even convince her to dress modestly, and if her mother has other ideas that luck just ran out. As for the guys who encourage their daughters to get involved in contact sports and act like boys, well, I’m not saying I support that, but if that’s all the fathers are allowed to do to bond with their daughters, and that’s all they know, how can we blame them? Maybe that’s the only time they can spend with their girls in which mom doesn’t shove the guy out of the way and take over. Personally, I tend to think that’s the explanation. If you love your child – and only a screwed up, strange man doesn’t love his daughter – you’re going to try to find some way to connect with her.

However, I’d like to offer fathers some hope and some relief. Let’s start with the relief:

If you have no power over your daughter, and fathers don’t have any to speak of, then your responsibility is diminished. Whether that’s good or bad is beside the point: it just is. What this means is that you are not to blame for much. If something goes wrong, chances are that it isn’t your fault. This is why men who blame fathers for daughters’ behavior should really just can it. It isn’t our fault. Blame the mothers, the schools, TV or Justin Bieber — we simply aren’t responsible. Neither legally nor practically. Would you blame a private for the loss of a battle? A slave for the failure of a plantation? Ridiculous!

What this means is that you should just relax and lay your worries aside, because they won’t do you any good. Instead, you should focus on the positive things you can do for your daughter, which may be limited, but at least here you have some leeway.

And this brings us to the hopeful part:

Fathers do have a bond with their daughters. Children love their parents, so daughters will listen to what their fathers say. They may not always follow the advice, but they will hear it, and if you lay your opinions down solidly your daughter will not forget them.

I think this is a great opportunity men have to both be good fathers to daughters and to keep their consciences clear. As a father, your primary duty is to teach your daughter your notion of what is right and wrong. And this doesn’t have to be a very complicated thing. In fact, it can be very simple.

Instead of worrying about whether or not she becomes Secretary of State or the next Olympic gold medalist, you should concern yourself with how you’d like her to address the world as an adult. I favor something along the lines of the Ten Commandments, and not for religious reasons, but rather because they are practical. I want my daughter to be forthright, not a thief, not an adulteress, not a liar, not vain, not covetous, etc. I want her to be kind to the unfortunate, respectful to her elders, gracious in success, and patient in times of trial. Whether or not she is a good wife is beside the point; teaching her to be a good human being is my job (teaching one’s daughter how to be a wife seems strange and inappropriate to a father, and I hope it stays that way).

Little girls love stories, and fathers can be pretty good at telling them. Choose stories that teach your daughter the lessons you think are important. I like stories that emphasize people (or animals) helping each other, being kind, and being resourceful. Throw in a little adventure and a few rewards. Hidden treasures and secret hideaways always help. Make sure the good ones have a happy outcome, and the bad actors are eaten by bears or turned into seaweed (or choose your own regionally appropriate version). And tell them to your sons as well — they like them too.

Another fun thing to do is to analyze fairy tales with your daughter. Ask her why Snow White is good. Sometimes, her responses will give you an idea of just how important this job is. Maybe she’ll say “Snow White is good because she’s beautiful.” This is where you can correct her in a manner that she will understand. You could say that Snow White may be beautiful, but she is good because she was kind and grateful to the dwarves, and did nice things for them when they helped her. You could tell her that the evil queen is evil because she only cares about being the most beautiful, and will hurt people to be on top when she could have been much happier accepting Snow White and eventually becoming a grandma. One of the moments I can remember that really made me happy was when I saw that my kids understood that part of evil is that it is just plain wrong — mistaken. I explained that a large part of the reason people are bad is that they are doing things the wrong way, and if only they learned to do the right thing they could be good. It’s a very simple concept that even small children can understand quite well, but alas, we adults all too often forget it.

Being a father to a daughter is a great blessing, and Western men have never really felt differently. I don’t think there’s any reason we should change simply because the current class of political women consists of so many evil sociopaths. These feminists really are not normal people, and they don’t represent natural girls and women, who actually do want to be good people — not evil, grasping, power-hungry tyrants who kill their own children and destroy their families for self-gratification.

Instead of fretting over our current position as fathers, I think we should take advantage of it, and learn to have a constructive relationship with our daughters that is both fun and rewarding for both daddy and his little girl. In fact, having no “power” over our daughters may be a good thing in the long run if we handle it the right way. If nothing else, it will compel us to teach them that ultimately they will be responsible for themselves, and all we can do is teach them how to handle it as upstanding adults with a firm sense of right and wrong. I don’t think there’s anything more important that fathers could do, so I am at peace with my role.

{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }

keyster October 1, 2012 at 07:59

Since the Feminist onslaught on the dynamics of the traditional family, the father has far less influence over his children. Meanwhile they witness the interactions between parents and learn from that – – how mother derides and disrespects father – – this assumes the parents are still married in the first place. She’ll learn that divorce is empowerment and children are pawns. After that you have to protect her from cultural influences through her friends and the media.

Fathers have much less control over their families, so you just have to do the best you can despite this.

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lavazza1891 October 1, 2012 at 08:23

I am divorced with two daughters (joint custody). I just try to lead by example, but without much dependence/attachment to the outcome. I’m an important voice, but not the only one, and you have to take into account basic nature and the surrounding culture, which is not in my hands.

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Justinian October 1, 2012 at 09:30

However, I often see men blaming fathers of daughters as well — for our problems with feminists. They say that we are white knights whose only purpose is to put other men down for our daughters. Yes, evidently we fathers of daughters are so powerful that we can oppress the rest of men very effectively.
……..
Well, I’ve got news for these guys. As a father of a daughter, you’ve got precious little power over your daughter’s life. You’re lucky if you can even convince her to dress modestly, and if her mother has other ideas that luck just ran out.

With all due respect, you are merely an average divorced Joe.

The powerful men with daughters who advance feminism are the political elite who largely have intact marriages due to their high social status:

These are the politicians and the university professors who get to drive public policy.

The wealthy CEOs who use their connections to get their daughters six-figure jobs at some NYC non-profit agency.

The male surgeons who married another female doctor/lawyer who could only squeeze out 1 female child in between their residency and fellowships. Now their lone daughter is the heir presumptive of the family name and must go out and have a powerful career to bring prestige to her parents.

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ahamkara October 1, 2012 at 09:31

I have a daughter and a son, and I see no conflict in the raising of my daughter. If she grows up to believe that being a raging feminist is in her best interests, well maybe it is and I wouldn’t begrudge her that. But she’ll understand why I’m not one. Everyone has to play for their own team after all. This has what has prompted my disengagement from liberal politics in general – the thought that by helping everyone more “oppressed” than myself, that I am somehow helping myself. It’s like trickle-down theory for liberals. Well I fight for my own team now, and my daughter should fight for hers however she sees fit.

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Uncle Elmer October 1, 2012 at 09:35

Great job Bill.

Delete the MRA/anit-feminist/White Knight triggers, give yourself a pen name like “Seth Rosinplantz-Schmaltz” or something, add “women and minorities suffer most” and “feminism has shattered stifling gender expectations that have held men back for centuries, and was like way worse back in the 50s” and “until massive workplace cultural changes are implemented”, then submit with invoice to The Atlantic.

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Uncle Elmer October 1, 2012 at 09:50

Also, change title to “Millennial Males Struggling to Raise Daughters” so it pops up in Google News.

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Zeus October 1, 2012 at 10:19

“a lot of men with daughters are afraid to open up …. there’s nothing at all wrong with having a daughter…..The really shameful thing is that today fathers often feel that having a daughter is something to fear.”

Whaaaa ? No offense but it sounds like you’re dreaming this up.

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Towgunner October 1, 2012 at 11:09

Frankly who cares about daughters, for every daughter that is exalted today there is a neglected and stunted son. This harkens the infamous book on the girl crisis of the 1990s, which was a pitful work of fiction. A book that was written by delusional feminists who denied their own eyes, nature and biology by introducing the groundless idea of gender social constructs and who contended that western girls were at a tipping point of mass wrist slitting because, among other things, they couldn’t play sports?? Or was it that they just didn’t want to? The end-state we have today, which is only a small way down the feminists road, is a daughter-centric society. It really really really pains me that for the remaining fathers that still exist many of them are doing to their daughters what they once did to their sons. I see it at the driving range all the time…here he, oh pardon, she is getting ready to take on the lga tour. Behind it is malinvestment, since the state arbitrarily destroyed countless college level sports, because its unfair if we let people self-determine, that were more favorable to males and/or insisted on proportionality. The result is an enormous swath of lucrative sports scholarships (ahem just for females)…and with the exceedingly high costs of education, another result of malinvestment, this avenue has become all the more attractive…but for all the wrong reasons. After all, male sports are a lot more entertaining because males are designed for this. Again, we revisit the book of the “girls crisis”, which, true or false now has dad’s rooting for her and not him, which means he is neglected. The irony is that girls were never in crisis, left alone they just make different decisions then boys, and so it never existed, but this fake crisis did result in a very real sex crisis…for boys. daughters have very little to worry about today, this society is catering to them. If it comes down to love then let it come down to practicality. A boy is a rough, testosterone laden individual…treat it as such. There is no crime in neglecting your daughters, especially when they are the focus everywhere else. Raise your sons to be men and our problems with feminism will be over.

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Höllenhund October 1, 2012 at 11:46

antifeministtech.info/2012/04/the-engine-of-feminism/

I have nothing more to add, for now.

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cooterbee October 1, 2012 at 12:53

There is nothing more pathetic than a loving father. You are an impotent cheerleader for runaway hypergamy. No you are not responsible for your daughters (that’s assuming that they are in fact your daughters) but you are responsible for a good deal of ambient misandry. I’ve never met one who is willing to denounce and provide evidence against his borderline daughter, who despite being read fairy tales slings false accusations toward every point on the compass. Their first loyalty is always to their daughter and her whims and not to goodness and justice. When their entitled princess comes home complaining of rape they go for the torches and pitch forks instead of telling her that she decided to be a whore and she got what she deserved.

Having said that, full disclosure demands that I report two daughters. I have little effect on their lives but by the same token, I don’t defend the trash that they are. I think this goes against the grain because in my observation, fathers with the least impact are also the most likely to subsidize and excuse noxious behavior from their daughters.

I posit that the ones who bond with their daughters are the ones who are screwed up. There is no virtue in meekly enlisting in the service of any female’s capriciousness. Fatherhood isn’t supposed to be about bonding. It is about inviolate rectitude and constancy. One often hears of cold and distant men spoken of with reverence. Long suffering tools of their beloved daughters earn the contempt their daughters show them.

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Pirran October 1, 2012 at 15:48

@cooterbee
“Having said that, full disclosure demands that I report two daughters. I have little effect on their lives but by the same token, I don’t defend the trash that they are………………I posit that the ones who bond with their daughters are the ones who are screwed up. There is no virtue in meekly enlisting in the service of any female’s capriciousness”

Sheesh, cooterbee. I don’t know your circumstances, but creating a parental gender war on our side just reduces us to the barking paranoia and frothing hatred of Rad Fem Hub. Perhaps you’ve had a truly lousy experience, but positing a militant exceptionalism for all males even unto the extent of denying our own offspring is reminiscent of Amazons abandoning their sons to the wolves.

I don’t have daughters, but I’d like to (eventually) live in a world where the genders can cooperate and accommodate each other for mutual benefit as has been the case in the past. I’m not trying to teach the world to sing here, but there’s an element of nihilistic despair in your post that is hard to encompass. Granted, things aren’t going to get better for quite a while, but I still have hope that future generations (at least) can learn from the mistakes of the last 40 years. There are a number of very effective female members in the manosphere and those numbers are growing. It isn’t ALL doom and gloom.

OK, that’s my Birkenstock moment of the month; back to laughing at loony hamsters and their male apologists.

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JFP October 1, 2012 at 17:44

Wait, is this the Bill Bennett blog? Mr. Price, me thinks you’re a touch sensitive. Many of those white knight fathers are as Justinian mentioned, high falutin elites and promoters of the status quo to keep themselves in power.

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crella October 1, 2012 at 17:51

‘I posit that the ones who bond with their daughters are the ones who are screwed up. There is no virtue in meekly enlisting in the service of any female’s capriciousness. Fatherhood isn’t supposed to be about bonding. ‘

I don’t agree with that. ‘Bonding’ does not equal ‘subservience’. Unless daughters are close to their fathers and respect their opinions and authority, they won’t turn out well.

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joeG October 1, 2012 at 18:26

I don’t have any kids at all but would like to someday have both daughters and sons. However I am afraid of having daughters (it has actually weighed on my ,mind a lot) because I am afraid of how they will turn out given the reduced role that I would have in their development once they reach a certain age. For the best outcome I know that choosing and staying married to the right woman would be key. If I am one day blessed with a daughter but not a good wife, I have come to the conclusion that I will try to instruct her in traditionalism similar to how I would try to instruct her in Christianity. That is to say to say, share with her my understanding of right and wrong according to these two principles, as well the importance thereof, and then hope (and pray) she chooses to believe.

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Anonymous October 1, 2012 at 18:41

I agree, Welmer. Instilling value’s is the most important job of a father. The one value I would place at the bottom of the list would be the almighty tolerance. As tolerance is a lack of values. Normally it would be the job of the mother to teach a girl the art and responsibilty of being a good wife/mother, just as it would be the responsibility of being a good father/husband. However, times have changed due to forces that are maliciously trying to destroy everything we hold dear. Your situation is testament to the changes that are destructive. You’re luckier than most, as strange as that sounds. You not only need to teach your son and daughter to be honroable people, but you also need to teach your son to be a good father/husband, (your example should suffice for that), but you must also teach your daughter to be a good wife/mother as well. The only way to win, so to speak, is for the cycle to be broken.

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pugsfugly October 1, 2012 at 19:46

There’s another element that hasn’t been mentioned: if women are by nature hypergamous, then what (if anything) as a father do you do about it? I’m about to be a full-time Dad, one way or another, and I’m worried, because trying to counter-act the feminist indoctrination that I know her mother will attempt (if for no other reason than to piss me off) will be hard enough.

An unscrupulous person would teach their daughter how to take advantage, similar to some of the things I’ve read encouraging Dads to teach their sons Game. You want the very best for your children, and like the white-knight elites mentioned above, most people probably wouldn’t care if they came by it honestly.

I don’t want my kid anywhere near the carousel, but if that is her natural inclination, what to do? I’ve dated several women over the years who were brought up in the strictest, most religiously-centered households imaginable. Once free, they went on a years-long sexual rampage. I may have been happy to oblige at the time, but there was still an obvious sense of directionless melancholy about them; of almost frenetic desperation to everything they did. Being around them was more depressing than fun. They weren’t even remotely happy, but they worked very hard to give the impression that they were doing exactly what they wanted to do.

I’d rather my daughter not have to experience that, if for no other reason than the amount of wasted time involved. How to go about it is still a puzzle.

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universe October 1, 2012 at 23:23

Bill
I may be missing something here but from a view as someone not raising children allow me a little space.

However, I often see men blaming fathers of daughters as well — for our problems with feminists.
– I don’t think that a young father at such as the age you are can hardly be blamed for much of anything occuring from the past to present while currently raising a 6 year-old daughter.

I interpreted your comment above thusly: that perhaps it was more that certain fathers during and conforming to a burgeoning liberal era – mid 1970s to the late old millenium century – who had relaxed accountabilty standards who supported the rise of feminist ideals for their daughters which may have contributed to their daughters’ ravings toward the rest of us in the culture that we are witness to today. These certain fathers of an earlier time.

From what we witness by your writings I believe that you are in a good position to instill enough values in your own daughter for her to not emulate those who are social nuisances today. Those raised by the collective consciousness raising previous generation, the above subject of blame.

What you have critically observed as occuring from the past will reflect in your own raised consciousness toward the raising of your daughter today.

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walking in hell October 1, 2012 at 23:58

Excellent article Mr. Price. Having a daughter in America is bringing a child into a washing machine.

It is really a curse for a man to have children in America. Those of us who have done it and lost our contact through the divorce courts can rest assured that the only mistake we made was having the child in the first place.

I maintain that it is cruel and unusual punishment for a man to bring children into the world through the polluted and genetically deformed body and mind of an American women; and then a double sin that the child must live in the cesspool that is American society.

Guys, don’t have children in America. Don’t think you can beat the odds. Even if you maintain contact with your children, because of the social influences, you probably won’t like your children much once they have adopted the perverse values of the society.

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greyghost October 2, 2012 at 03:26

I have 2 daughters and I don’t even think about all of that crazy pc shit. For those that think Welmer is getting soft and white knightish for his daughter. Yeah well of course he is it’s his child and he is a beta father. We understand what that means in an insane world but that doesn’t change that he is emotionally involved with his own child. That is why this fight against the beast is so important. It shouldn’t be a negative thing . The main reason I’m here at all is to make sure my now 6 year old son doesn’t have to live in a world where honest loving commitment to his family is a crimminal act.

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Anonymous October 2, 2012 at 05:34

@towgunner

Why would you suggest that a parent should neglect their child b/c they were born a girl? Why can’t a parents love all of their children, both the boys and the girls?

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Rod October 2, 2012 at 06:33

This is a good post, and I think it raises a lot of important points for those of us who have daughters. I agree completely: it’s essential that fathers find some way to connect with their daughters. There are lots of possibilities. My daughter is already grown, with children of her own now, but when she was growing up, it seemed there was always a sharp division between those areas of her life that my wife controlled, and those areas where I had influence. Clothing, shopping (or any use of money), food, what kinds of friends she chose to hand out with … I found that I had zero influence in those areas, while my wife had a lot of say. But my daughter and I really connected in other ways. We’re both musically inclined (while my wife is tone-deaf), so we jammed together and listened together. She and I also shared interest in books and ideas (and I’m glad to say that to this day she has a distaste for feminism, and I think my influence has a lot to do with that). Fathers of daughters have to live with the fact that there will be areas of their childrens lives over which they’ll have very little control (but that goes for sons, too). It’s just a matter of seeking out and making the most of those areas where you can connect.
I cringe when I hear some MRAs put down “daughter owners.” What were we supposed to do? Sell them?

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ahamkara October 2, 2012 at 06:55

I feel like I should clarify my earlier comments. What I mean to say is that I think a father can advocate for his own daughter without insisting that the game be rigged in her favor.

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Old Guy October 2, 2012 at 10:04

I have a daughter and because of the responses of some, when people speak of their daughters, I usually do not mention it. The replies are predictable. Point out that she was a good athlete and you are raising an amazon dyke whose coach stole money from boy’s sports for her worthless exertions. Mention that she is now in a STEM program at a respectable U, she is just there because she took some more worthy boy’s slot, her years of hard work in difficult math and science classes in HS and high exam scores had nothing to do with it. Mention that she is pretty and popular, and you’ll be told that she is a slut who was improperly instructed by you, and find yourself denounced as a white knight mangina who let your wife turn the child into a gold digging whore.

Not to mention being called names for wanting the best for your child.

So I pass on discussing my experiences as a dad. It produces much heat and little light.

A daughter is your child. If you are a responsible parent, you want her to have a good, happy, successful life. She didn’t choose to be born, nor did she create the world she was born into, but here she is, and she has to survive in the world as she finds it.

I taught her to be an Individualist who looks out for herself, not a collectivist who thinks the state owes her a living. I taught her that those in charge are mostly self serving morons. I taught her that being smart isn’t enough, you have to work hard and create value if you want to succeed. That and paying for her education is all I can do. The rest is up to her and the fates.

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Anonymous October 2, 2012 at 12:08

Disclaimer #1: Long time reader, first time poster.
Disclaimer #2: Father of a 9 year-old boy and a 6 year-old girl.
Disclaimer #3: Still married to their mother.

This is the first time I’ve ever read anything on The Spearhead that got me pissed off enough to post. I love this site, and I think that the Manosphere is doing a great service to all mankind. This was a great article/conversation starter by Mr. Price. However, some of the comments are impossible to frame in a positive light, and reflect poorly on all of us. Time to call out the sociopaths.

Towgunner & cooterbee, if you’re trolls, then well played, sirs. You are highly skilled trolls. If not, then what the hell is wrong with you?

“There is no crime in neglecting your daughter(s)”???? “There’s nothing more pathetic than a loving father”???? I’m gonna spare you the lecture on the ethical obligation all fathers have to raise their children, the biological imperative to see to the well-being of all persons carrying 50% of one’s DNA, and the manly obligation to persevere even in the face of insurmountable odds, and strictly focus on the issues where the fathering daughters is in the best interest of all men.

A woman learns to relate to men first and foremost through the relationship she has with her father. An absent, weak or abusive father creates a girl with “daddy-issues”. Here’s a fun experiment you can try in the field; frequent several gentleman’s clubs and ask each stripper about her dad. You don’t have to be Steve Sailer to spot the pattern.

Furthermore, who in this world will EVER hold a girl accountable for her actions? Who in this world will EVER truthfully and lovingly explain to a girl how the SMP really works? Who in this world will EVER debunk the blackest lies and emptiest promises of feminism for an impressionable girl? Who in this fallen world will EVER tell a girl that men are not impressed by worthless degrees, advanced athletic prowess, six figure salaries or confrontational loud-mouthery? Who will EVER mock with acrid derision the barren-wombed, bitter, lonely, 12-cat-ownin’ spinster, career grrrl, and expose her for the corpulent fraud that she is, and finally accusingly point at her as the most egregious example of whom young a girl should NOT emulate? Who will teach a girl the conversational basics of things men find interesting? Who will teach a girl by example that a man’s love is NOT subservient to her whims?

In this rotting husk of a civilization, only a girl’s father can teach these lessons. Yeah, the deck’s stacked against me and my foes are legion, but I swear by all I hold holy… I’d rather go down fighting a thousand times than tap out and become the soulless shells of men that you are.

*sigh* OK, I’m gonna put my shirt back on and lower my voice.

Pugs (miss you at Taki’s, guy) or somebody mentioned something about bonding with one’s daughter? This is not rocket surgery, and shouldn’t be a father’s primary concern. Bonding with your daughter is a byproduct of simply being around. Your daughter will want to spend time with you simply because you’re her daddy. To liken it to a game principle, she wants to be led into your world. Don’t overthink it, just do your thing and let her tag along. “Get your shoes on, cupcake, we’re going to the hardware store.”/”Hey, kids, we’re going fishing today.”/”Hmmmm… that section of lawn looks awful. Grab your shovel and you can help me plant some grass seed.”/”Get your coat on, we’re going to see our awful local NHL franchise play.” It bears repeating, the inside jokes, familiarity and bonding are a byproduct of simply being around your daughter. Leave the shopping, hair fixing, Barbie, girly-girl stuff to her mom.

Sincerely,

Gunnlaug Serpentongue

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cooterbee October 2, 2012 at 12:20

@Old Guy
“Point out that she was a good athlete and you are raising an amazon dyke whose coach stole money from boy’s sports for her worthless exertions. Mention that she is now in a STEM program at a respectable U, she is just there because she took some more worthy boy’s slot, her years of hard work in difficult math and science classes in HS and high exam scores had nothing to do with it. Mention that she is pretty and popular, and you’ll be told that she is a slut who was improperly instructed by you, and find yourself denounced as a white knight mangina who let your wife turn the child into a gold digging whore.”

That’s the conundrum. If every guy who swears that his daughter made it on her exceptional merit alone can be believed then feminism isn’t a problem but a blessing. No you can’t win. Your task would be to demonstrate her outstanding attributes when her starting block is at the finish line. It’s like bragging that your son is a master chess player when he gets to start every game with seven queens. It would be next to impossible to construct a credible case for true merit. Under those conditions, it is best that you don’t talk about it. Her best chance of getting any credit at all would be to let her deeds speak for themselves. Over time, she will be able to distinguish herself from the dykes, whores and gold diggers.

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Joeb October 2, 2012 at 14:26

I find raising a daughter was much easier , The Boys where always the targets . The daughter was left alone at school. the female teachers targeted the Boys for gender reasons .
Attacking there strengths whenever possible .From academics to sports the Girls was much better off .
Even the Ex wife had little or no reason ever to stress the daughter .
I had several conversations with my oldest son , That sounded like “Shy is picking with me for no reason .
I know from my days at school the Feminist teachers always picked the A male out of the class and made an example of him . Sometimes It was me sometimes it was not but, I get it now . I did not get it then .
And that’s what we need to explain to the boys .

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Alice October 2, 2012 at 15:56

I have no idea whether this post will get through, but I thought I would offer a perspective. My husband directed me here after finding this by searching for ‘raising daughters’. I have no particular beef with the ‘men’s rights’ movement. I’m a libertarian feminist myself, opposing special laws for women (be they the Islamic houdad laws or the US affirmative action), and just wanting an opportunity to succeed on my own merits.

I had a father who was part of the men’s rights movement before there was a movement. He considered me an unfortunate side effect of his three sons. He opposed women’s education, telling me again and again that women were neither mentally nor emotionally equipped to succeed at study or work. Indeed, when I won a place in the top level physics class at school, he went as far as to ring and ask that I be removed, as he didn’t want me taking the place of a boy who would do something ‘useful’ with the education ‘when he matured’. Wanting to be a good daughter, and terrified of further alienating the father who I wanted to impress, I never voiced any decent. Instead, I did as my mother suggest: I enrolled in advanced English courses, topped those and eventually went on to put myself through a top law school (which doesn’t require math or science prereqs). I now have a wonderful family and successful marriage (to an injured ex-servicemen – a wonderful man I probably would not have been wise to marry had I not been able to have a career), but when I think of my father I feel little but sadness.

I would have loved to have been close to my father, but it wasn’t to be. Still, consistent with this article, while I wouldn’t say my father had no influence of me, what influence he had was not as he predicted. However, he did have a significant influence over my brothers.

My brothers were taught to believe that they were naturally superior beings, but that the world was stacked against them. This has fundamentally affected their capacity to function in society.

One brother – by far the smartest person in my family – did not complete high school. He now tells me he dropped out because he wasn’t doing as well as me. My father had told him again and again that I was inherently stupid. Yet, he wasn’t getting as good grades as I was, or other girls were, so how stupid did that make him? He dropped out and went into the kind of low-skill, physically demanding jobs were there were no women to compete with. He is only now – in his 30s -trying to get his life together and get back to college. My father blamed me. Fortunately, my brother does not.

My other brothers also did not go on to higher education. They also blame me, although the reason is a little more nebulous. I suspect they crumbled under the weight of my father’s expectations, but I don’t really know. They do okay financially, again in jobs were there are no women (neither would be able to deal with the kind of female boss you’d find in most professions). However, they have highly dysfunctional relationships because they are convinced that some woman is out to ‘get them’.

They also, fundamentally, lack any ability to relate to ordinary women. In my father’s world, women had moved on little from the times of Jane Austen, and were desperate to find men to care for them and keep them. Men, he taught, have the power and need to be very careful to choose correctly. Problem for my brothers is that they don’t have much power, their choices are limited, and their misogynistic and suspicious attitudes mean that alienate any nice girls they meet rather quickly. Genuinely desperate women are another matter, of course. A woman with several out of wedlock children and no earning prospects is willing to put up with a lot more than a woman who acted sensibly and ensured she could look after herself. So my brothers meet the wrong types and perpetuate the nasty cycle.

What am I attempting to say here? Only that I urge you to be careful not only in the way you raise your daughters, but also the way you raise your sons. Like my father, you may well oppose women’s education and liberation, and hope your sons marry conservative and submissive girls. You may even be convinced that eventually the law will changed to reverse the gains of feminism and women will again be required to marry whoever will take them (this has happened throughout time, so you may prove to be right). However, the world at the moment is one in which women do have choices and opportunities, and I urge you to ensure your sons do not end up like my brothers – waiting for a conversation devolution that is not on the immediate horizon. Wasted lives are a loss to us all.

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Uncle Elmer October 2, 2012 at 15:58

“Towgunner & cooterbee, if you’re trolls, then well played, sirs. You are highly skilled trolls. If not, then what the hell is wrong with you?”

What, no Elmer? There’s no talking to you people…

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pjanus October 2, 2012 at 16:34

@ Alice,

“One brother –by far the smartest person in my family – did not complete high school. He now tells me he dropped out because he wasn’t doing as well as me. My father had told him again and again that I was inherently stupid. Yet, he wasn’t getting as good grades as I was, or other girls were, so how stupid did that make him?”

Please see:-

http://insideireland.ie/2012/02/16/female-teachers-give-boys-lower-marks-56034/

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Alice October 2, 2012 at 17:57

@pjanus

I have no idea about the validity of that article. If it’s true, the answer should be more male teachers.

However, I think that the answer in my brother’s case has less to do with a feminist conspiracy to give him bad marks than it does with the simple biological fact that at 14 or 15 many girls are fairly mature while most boys are not. In my early teens I was working hard, with a view to the future. My brother was fooling around with his friends.

Different ages of maturity likely account for most of the gender disparity in results in the early to mid teens..I will likely hold any sons of mine back a year before starting school to give them a bit of an advantage later.

However, the other problem, as I was trying to express, was the sense of entitlement created by my father through his constant reminders to his sons of their innate superiority. Perhaps if he had emphasised the need for hard work by everyone, they would have done better?

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pugsfugly October 2, 2012 at 19:13

@Anonymous (Gunnlaug Serpentongue)

Taki’s mag became overly swamped with trolls awhile back, and their moderator (assuming they had one) wasn’t up to par, so while I still read it every day, I don’t bother with the comments.

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Attila October 2, 2012 at 19:40

Most if not all of the guys I know who have daughters are completely p-whipped. Every single one. I sense that they just refuse to admit the realities of feminism/equal rights because it would require a drastic change of life situations or bring on a feeling of total entrapment in the wheels of the fem-system.

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Attila October 2, 2012 at 19:56

I’ve taken a number of language classes over the years – and WITHOUT EXCEPTION – the female instructors gave extensive face-time to the females (no time limit, no interruptions) – and comparatively short face-time to the guys in the class. The ONLY equitable instruction I ever found was an older Iranian guy who was mercilessly just in the way he allotted roughly equal time and attention to all present. I particularly remember one Turkish lady professor who allowed a loud-mouthed, rambling African-American female and her gay male cohort to virtually hog all of the class time. A second female instructor who would not set limits on a fast-talking, somewhat obese Jewish female was a real interest killer. Needless to say- I now avoid courses given by female instructors. It’s a waste of time.

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Pirran October 2, 2012 at 20:20

@Alice
“I have no idea about the validity of that article. If it’s true, the answer should be more male teachers.”

That line’s simply glib. I think your comments about girls maturing faster than boys are valid, but a key difference in recent years across The West has been the switch from exams to continuous assessment. The difference in the UK was dramatic; almost overnight a significant gap opened up in favor of girls. Boys do better in competitive exams, girls do better in continuous assessment. This has been known for decades, but boys are still treated as feckless, useless and lazy.

Back in the day I undertook various certificates in education (not out of choice; they were a requirement by the administration of the time for any kind of professional tutoring). Apart from the sheer uselessness of the qualifications, I was appalled at the genuine hatred of ALL males (even boys as young as 7) that was present in the various courses (and I went to a notable college). The ingrained hostility towards men nurtured over the last 40 years has reached it’s ne plus ultra in the teacher training colleges and this loathing has been inculcated in each successive generation. There are many reasons why boys do badly at school, but the misandry and contempt that has been fostered by the (overwhelmingly) female teaching complement towards males bears a large part. Girls are applauded, boys are medicated; it’s not a bug, its a feature.

It’s no surprise that men don’t want to go into teaching; their presence is bitterly resented by a significant portion of their female contemporaries who despise their male pupils just as much. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t experienced it personally, but I’ve subsequently encountered many men who’ve had similar experiences in public sector teaching. For men in teacher training, the hostility is palpable. I’ve encountered this far too often for it to be merely anecdotal.

Your feelings of resentment and worthlessness at the hands of your father over the claimed superiority of men have been mirrored in much of academe by women towards males. Hardly surprisingly, this does not lead to positive results.

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Avenger October 2, 2012 at 20:30

“The wealthy CEOs who use their connections to get their daughters six-figure jobs at some NYC non-profit agency”

So? What’s wrong with seeing that your daughter is well educated and can support herself if necessary. And everyone will pull some strings if they can whether it’s the CEO or some guy in the carpenter’s union who gets his nephew in. What planet are you living on that you don’t know this?

“The male surgeons who married another female doctor/lawyer who could only squeeze out 1 female child ”

Except that it’s not true. Female doctors almost always manage to have more than 1 kid and are quite practical about this. Unlike the average female they know that they have a limited time to reproduce and the problems with pregnancy at older ages, aside from the fact that having a kid at 40 means you’ll be an old woman by the time the kid is in college.

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W.F. Price October 2, 2012 at 20:38

That line’s simply glib. I think your comments about girls maturing faster than boys are valid, but a key difference in recent years across The West has been the switch from exams to continuous assessment. The difference in the UK was dramatic; almost overnight a significant gap opened up in favor of girls. Boys do better in competitive exams, girls do better in continuous assessment. This has been known for decades, but boys are still treated as feckless, useless and lazy.

-Pirran

Yep. That’s exactly it. Here in the US they de-emphasized exams in the mid-late 80s. College admissions were previously 2/3rds exams and 1/3rd grades, and then it was reversed in one fell swoop.

The proportion of girls admitted surpassed boys almost overnight.

The female preponderance in higher ed admissions was entirely engineered.

But it’s OK, because now credentials have been significantly devalued, and professors barely make middle-class pay (serves them right).

Reader October 2, 2012 at 22:03

@ Alice

Here is the paper from the London School of Economics & Political Science (LSE) – Centre for Economic Performance (CEP):

http://ideas.repec.org/p/cep/ceedps/0133.html

Valid enough for you?

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joybear October 3, 2012 at 06:58

Start talking about the daughters and the moderate feminists come out in force.
As a Private dick I do know one thing to be true , a pre-negation is a spider web of knowledge .
Anytime someone uses negation ,denial in place of affirmations my eyebrow will raise . In this case id say the fems are fearful . The looking glass .
The fear comes from looking inside there own minds .

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Dad October 3, 2012 at 07:01

I like to go shopping for dresses and shoes, do their hair and nails. Other times we go exploring in the forests. I want them to know that they can be feminine and shouldn’t be ashamed of it and don’t need to be an abusive butch like their mother.

They are far more “in control” when they are around me simply because I don’t put up with their drama and violence.

There’s a reason why men don’t talk about this stuff here and the reason is YOU.

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pjanus October 3, 2012 at 07:37

@Alice,

The link I pointed you to was just a little tester, to see if you were worth talking to. I was not surprised by your reply. (Pirran W.F.Price and Reader have
covered this)

I just wonder, what are the odds that a child would have a father who was a MRM. What greater are the odds that he would have no sense of justice or fairness? Conversely this would be common for boys whether his mother was feminist, a single mother or, one of your nice, married women.

A woman did some research into gangs in the UK. She found that the first male role model these boys encountered was when they went to prison. Is this men’s fault Alice? I wouldn’t advise you to go there.

You see, education is not the only area that has been re- engineered or where the male has been hounded out. Men and boys face serious disadvantage in family law, criminal law, education, health and employment. You know, all those little areas that are important to life.

You say your brothers don’t have much power. My jaw just hit the floor.

So Alice, do you think that the destruction of everything masculine was the only way to give women yet more choices and opportunities?

As to the way we raise our sons and daughters, when we had any say in that we did okay by our daughters, but the truth is, that for far too long, we have sent our sons out into the world like lambs to the slaughter.

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joybear October 3, 2012 at 07:40

Alice is simply a denial machine .When the web gets bigger then the page and even I can’t get past the first paragraphs. It becomes obvious the nature of the post. Alice is down the rabbit hole . Don’t follow her ,That’s a magical kingdom of queerness, you will get lost .
Am I reading this wrong or dose it say ?
There is no conspiracy and all your proof is negated because the red queen says so ?
Her father believes he’s superior so, Just go back to work slave .

Nice ,

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Kim October 3, 2012 at 21:26

“Frankly, who cares about daughters…”

Hopefully, any parent of female children….the same standing true for parents of boys. Caring about and seeking to safeguard the lives and best interests of their children is an integral aspect to being a good parent.

Raising daughters in this day and age is tantamount to an 18 year sentence in Hell. You’re fighting to instill anything of value and worth while everything around them conspires to undermine your efforts. Of course, raising boys comes with it’s own set of society aided problems, such as teaching them to value and take pride in themselves as boys and men. It’s a difficult thing…showing worth in that which has uniformly been labeled “bad”.

@Alice,

In defense of a lot of great guys I know who do label themselves members of the MRM, your father bears no resemblance to them. Last I checked, men’s rights had more to do with reminding society that men are human beings…not propagating notions that women aren’t.

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Dead Dad October 9, 2012 at 16:19

I tell my daughter stories based on christianity, but I change all the names. That way I can convey the moral, while it passes under the radar of her evil mother. It is very effective, so far.

Also, most Disney movies are great. Perticularly, perhaps, the new ones.

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