Fire in the Manosphere

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by W.F. Price on September 11, 2012

The Game/PUA and MRA factions are going after each other again, and I was going to weigh in on PMAFT’s blog with my own take on the situation. Well, my comment got kind of long, and when I’d finished I looked at it and said to myself “this isn’t a comment — it’s a post.” So I decided to throw it online, because I think it’s important, and worth thinking about.

Here it is:

As far as attacking people, there’s a lot of guilt to go around, so I’m not going to point fingers at one side or another, and quite frankly I try to keep it to myself and not make an issue of it when someone else attacks me personally. No sense in burning bridges until there’s no better choice.

Zed’s written about this problem before. He calls it the “circular firing squad.” Ah, la plus ca change…

Guys have big egos. We aren’t really that good at consensus. What men do well is compete, and organize toward a common goal — usually in competition with another group.

What’s going on here is competition between the younger game/PUA and older MRA/fathers’ rights crowd. I suppose I could say it’s a shame, and we shouldn’t be fighting each other, but actually I’m not too concerned. Competition can be a good thing, and so long as both are trying to win a prize that will ultimately benefit all men, it might turn out for the better.

Obviously, trying to score with various hot young chicks is not my thing right now. I’m past that stage, and to be honest it would probably get me in some trouble and could make my life a lot more difficult if I succeeded in such a pursuit. Last thing I need is another child support order, or some angry, spurned woman collaborating with my ex to screw me (some of them will do that stuff).

However, for a lot of guys under 35 or so it’s a very important quest. It strikes me as kind of myopic and bull-headed when older men dismiss their concerns and efforts. However, on the other hand, it looks really naive and self-defeating when younger guys declare the efforts of MRAs and fathers’ rights groups to be a total waste. Fathers’ organizations have been making a difference for years. Since they started working on the problems in the 80s, they’ve managed to contain some of the damage and roll back some of the crazier legislation. Take the limits on alimony for example. If it weren’t for these guys, a lot more states would still have punitive alimony laws in place.

Another example is visitation legislation. Women who repeatedly withhold visitation now face penalties that actually have some teeth. Presumed joint legal custody in dozens of states is yet another victory. I can only hope the young men who are trying to meet the future mother of their children (if they want to have kids, and most do) don’t ever have to deal with these issues, but if they do they’ll be happy they’ve got some men on their side. It sure beats nothing! Concerning strict MRA apart from fathers’ rights, it’s pretty new, so give it some time — give it a chance. You can’t expect immediate triumph, and there’s always going to be some trial and error, but don’t think these guys haven’t done anything so far; some, such as SAVE, have actually had legislative influence at the federal level.

As for the younger guys who are interested in Game, I think a lot of the men over 45 or so ought to consider the fact that when they were in their sexual prime, the atmosphere wasn’t nearly as bad as it is now. If you are a guy in his 50s who got screwed after getting married, think about how it would have been to deal with having the deck stacked so badly against you before marriage. That’s the reality for young men. Game is how they are dealing with significantly lower social status than men had as recently as the 1990s, and apparently it works.

What we have is two groups of guys yelling at each other from either side of the transition most men go through between youth and middle age. It’s a little odd when you think about it, because they might as well be shaking their fists at their younger or older selves.

As someone who still straddles both camps (although definitely moving closer to the latter), I try to present some balance. It might be a futile effort, and as I suggested the competition between the groups might not be a terrible thing, but it’s important for there to be a bridge, and I guess I’m going to stand here by that bridge with a fire hose to try to save it from being burned down. I have a feeling it will come in handy for a lot of men.

{ 95 comments… read them below or add one }

Ecclesiastes September 11, 2012 at 05:49

Let’s address finding common cause.

As a father, it is a sad fact that there are some lessons that only the real world can teach, or at least that’s the only thing the kid will listen to. I’d love to be able to impart such wisdom that it would never be so, but it’s just not.

PUA’s on the other hand, really don’t want to get tangled up with one piece of ass, not like child support tangled up.

I propose that the MRA guys understand that the PUAs are the real world, and that a deal is in order.

Hearts will be broken, but as long as lives are not shattered, there will be a tomorrow.

Women have taken up a wild recklessness swimming in a safe harbor. It was the risks of pain and death that had them mature younger a century ago, but no more.

Women need the harbor walls removed from the wharves and docks, life guards attending. They need to flounder, fail, cry out for help. Some will wash ashore. Some will wash out to sea, but not one more than can’t be saved. It’s happening now, but it needs to happen younger.

I’m sure there is a solution we can … all tolerate.

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Troll King September 11, 2012 at 05:52

I really don’t understand the points that these camps are trying to make or why they are fighting each other. I have always seen game and PUA and MRA and Fathers Rights and so on as different folders in the same file. I don’t get it.

Anyways.

OT.

Council gives job to child protection worker knowing she had hired a hitman to kill her ex husband
..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1194134/Council-gives-job-social-worker-knowing-hired-hitman-kill-ex-husband.html

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Troll King September 11, 2012 at 05:54

OT.

This just shows the cruelty that most women have in their hearts:

“…it is common for a woman to take the children and leave her husband, upon discovering that he has been raped.”

http://slipperyslopebox.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/the-silent-victims-of-male-rape/

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freebird September 11, 2012 at 06:09

The ones shouting the loudest are in the minority.
It’s the passion of youth I suppose.
I find it crazy that some guys would call you weaker for having a woman,that is your business,take all you can handle,like any other poison.

I’m cool with all 3 factions,no need for cross-purpose competition.
The main problem seems to be these motivations are trained int us by WOMEN,to fight and compete for the favors and class/status designation.

Until men start to realize they have worth outside of the female paradigm
we’re going nowhere *Fast and Furious*.

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Elihu September 11, 2012 at 06:23

The entire so-called schism is the result of whiny girls like Paul Elam and the anti-game virgins who are just desperate for an excuse to rationalize their own continued failure at life. They make for easy pickings on slow news days.

I have my doubts regarding the viability of adopting the language and tactics of the feminist movement, appealing to fairness, and ‘working within the system’ in general, which is what I see a lot of in the MRM. But that’s a matter of tactics.

The bottom line is that young men need the guidance and leadership of old farts who don’t care much anymore for pick-up lines and 4am nights in the club. We just need a better class of them than what the MRM offers, present company excluded.

Cheers,
Elihu

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Big Un's September 11, 2012 at 06:26

I think the two groups are kind of talking past each other in some ways, as WF Price points out.

However, there is a tremendous amount of nihilism within the PUA community which gets really silly and is ultimately self-destructive. Like, “Why care about this BETA mra stuff when you could be getting LAID?!?!? Yeehaw!” Well, most MRAs can and do get laid when they want. Just because we don’t make it the center of our lives, I guess we’re not “alpha.” Plus, the whole lifestyle of picking up drunk bar sluts and sticking your penis in them without a condom. That is bad, mmkay.

We should also note the fight developing between the Alt Right/Traditionalist crowd and MRAs. I happen to think many aspects of their worldviews are highly valuable. But, we can’t forget that the traditionalist worldview got corrupted and beaten by the Left in just a few short decades. I agree with Barbarossaaa and Stardusk that Traditionalism carries within it the seeds of its own destruction. A healthy counterculture may eventually develop utilizing many alt right/traditionalist viewpoints but it still must be a hybrid with mra/mgtow and game so as not to experience the same degradation that traditionalism has.

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Jim September 11, 2012 at 06:37

MRAs believe in the state. I believe in the Constitution. The state falsely assumes it is above that document. MRAs falsely assume the state will “see” their plight ever though the state is the reason for it.

Politicians do not criticize women. The look the other way merely to get their votes and subsidize their bad behavior and decisions even at the cost of the society itself. That voting bloc is so huge now that it will never be overcome until it causes the complete collapse of the state itself because without it, those politicians will not achieve power.

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Justin September 11, 2012 at 06:37

So, did this not start (yet again) when some drama-seeking attention-whoring Gamer attacked a member of the MRM? How many times does this happen until people start seeing the pattern? These Gamers (you know who I”m talking about) are nothing but salesmen, literally, attempting to sell a product. Nothing they say or do goes beyond simple self-promotion. Hellooooo

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Lyn87 September 11, 2012 at 06:52

I have noticed that a lot of guys in both camps rag on “SoCons,” as if they are the problem. As a guy who is socially conservative I have been put off by the suggestion that anyone who is not a social libertine (not to be confused with libertarian), is somehow in a big conspiracy to enslave men. Some guys cling to their belief in a “SoCon Conspiracy” as tenaciously as feminists cling to their belief in “The Patriarchy” that exists for the sole purpose of keeping women down. Neither conspiracy is real. It is possible to be simultaneously socially conservative and an anti-feminist libertarian – I’m living proof.

I routinely hear calls for cooperation from guys who, two sentences later, brand all social conservatives as enemy manginas. Never mind that SoCons alone fought feminism tooth and nail in the 1960′s and 1970′s when feminism was really starting to impact society. Social libertines (which includes “players” – we would call them PUA’s now) joined with feminists to marginalize social conservatism in the popular culture, and they largely succeeded. Now that feminists have turned their artillery on all males – social libertines included – some of those guys still prefer to fight the battles of the early Sexual Revolution.

Social libertines made it abundantly clear that they wanted nothing to do with social conservatives back when it was still possible to nip feminism in the bud: back when it mattered. Social conservatism became a “bad” thing in the larger culture. As a guy who spends a lot of time with these people – very few of them are pro-feminism: they’re just ignoring you. Social libertines told them, “We don’t need your antiquated SoCon morality – Go away.” So they did. They fought feminism alone for two decades while everyone else turned on them. They lost that campaign, so they moved to other battles.

Cooperation between different camps for a common goal? Sure. But if that means social libertines attacking social conservatives… well, let’s just say everyone is going to find it harder to win when both groups alienate a group of potential allies that is far larger than both groups together.

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Josh the Aspie September 11, 2012 at 06:53

Well, I started out writing up a response to your post, but it got up to post length it’s self, and I did the same thing, posting the comment to my blog. Of course, since this is my first post as a part of the androsphere, I needed to provide some additional context before posting it.

The post, which wound up being a little over 1K in word count, can be found at http://blog.joshtheaspie.com/2012/09/11/conflict-in-the-androsphere/

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The Hex September 11, 2012 at 07:04

“The entire so-called schism is the result of whiny girls like Paul Elam and the anti-game virgins who are just desperate for an excuse to rationalize their own continued failure at life. They make for easy pickings on slow news days.”

Seriously, Elihu? I’ve been reading the Spearhead for a long time but this is the first comment I’ve felt compelled to make. Paul Elam is an MRM hero who has been fighting for men’s rights longer than almost anybody. His is a solid background as a public defender of

Gamers and PUAs, on the other hand, perpetually seem to be more interested in how much tail they can score than the injustice served on men in this country. The more I think about it, the more I question why PUAs are even considered a part of the men’s rights movement? Besides giving the MRM a bad name, they actively disrupt productive conversations by shouting ME, ME, ME, just like angry feminists. Beyond a few questionable gains in the interesting field of ev-psych, they have not added anything productive to the MRM conversation.

Therefore, I would have to say it is the whiny PUAs and gamers who are the result of this schism, by constantly trying to claim ownership of the MRM without having anything to show for it. According to PUA literature, anyone can learn game and therefore score on easy girls all the time? Therefore where is the accomplishemnt?

It seems that the real accomplishment is having the fortitude to stand up and publicly defend the men of this country against the perpetual injustice’s served on them. Similar to when Welmer announced the end of his anonymity: “I am William Price, and I write for the MRA”. That is what takes real courage, dude.

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Jim September 11, 2012 at 07:06

And what are you selling?

Fairness
Equality
Consideration

I see it as simply empty efforts that keep everyone bickering because they believe in the state. And all because of the politicians and a weak and ignorant populace who have given the state power it should have never gotten.

You know what you guys should be pushing for if you want real change? The repeal of the 19th Amendment. Allowing women to vote is why the state is where it’s at. It is designed to cater to women and men are irrelevant in it. It’s why those who founded the USA didn’t include them to begin with but what did they know? The lapdogs of the STATE, the MEDIA continuously promote the notion that they were old white male slave owners simply to marginalize the documents they wrote. Today God is booed and tomorrow the Constitution will be.

Oh BTW that same media calls us all a hate group. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US.

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Uncle Elmer September 11, 2012 at 07:30

I remember my 8th grade shop teacher lecturing the smirking bunch of us about his Army days in WWII. About the smartasses who didn’t pay attention and blew themselves up with grenades. Or the guy who “knew all about women” yet hadn’t been any further than the back doorstep with his own Momma.

He was especially hard on Elmer. Couple of times took me out in the hall and paddled me (“cracks” they called it, corporal punishment), much to everyone’s delight.

Look you punks, all of you are going to go through some incarnation of these male personas in your life so pay attention to what the geezers are telling you.

Picking up chicks is nothing new. You think we didn’t spend a huge amount of our youth refining those techniques? The difference now is that most of the young gals have swallowed the “career” nonsense hook, line, and sinker, and young men have greater opportunity for committment-free laisons….

…providing they pay attention to their elders and not fall into the various female fly-traps that are perfectly evolved to consume them.

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Uncle Elmer September 11, 2012 at 07:33

One more observation.

Who reads backpacking magazines? Not backpackers.

Who reads travel magazines? Not people who travel.

Who reads PUA magazines?…..

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Uncle Elmer September 11, 2012 at 07:47

Oh look, there’s young Elmer at the beach, like a Greek God.

His “frisbee”, ostensibly tossed at his wingman, lands fortuitously amongst a group of bikini-clad girls. He saunters over to retrieve it. It’s poultry in motion…

You punks aren’t picking up shit. While many of the psychological aspects of “Game” are very real, from Elmer’s experience it takes long-term sales and marketing campaigns to reel in the high-qual fish as opposed to the easily scooped up sewer bass.

And frankly, whenever I actually “picked up” a chick and she dropped her drawers without a fuss , my dick wouldn’t get hard! Something in the back of my lizard brain trying to warn me.

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Tom September 11, 2012 at 07:53

I agree with Justin above.

This whole controversy was manufactured by a PUA salesperson (Roosh?) trying to bait the MRM into linking to his site -> generate traffic -> sell more stuff.

It’s a fairly common link-building strategy (called “link baiting”): you write something controversial to bait people into linking to your website. Since Google considers every link as a vote of confidence, you’ll rank higher on Google’s search results.

It’s quite obvious really, for anyone familiar with internet marketing strategies..

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Darryl X September 11, 2012 at 08:10

“Take the limits on alimony for example. If it weren’t for these guys, a lot more states would still have punitive alimony laws in place.

“Another example is visitation legislation. Women who repeatedly withhold visitation now face penalties that actually have some teeth. Presumed joint legal custody in dozens of states is yet another victory.”

Although there has been considerable effort to prevent or change legislation concerning divorce and child support during the past forty years, I am not aware of any that has worked. The government needs to stay out of families. Period.

There is no political, legal, financial or social solution to our dilemma. Attempts to change legislation only keeps government in families and usually makes the problem worse by creating more laws and more government. That’s like solving the problem of too much debt with more debt.

Attempts at alimony reduction or elimination (like in Massachussetts) have resulted in increased child support orders to off-set the lack of alimony. Shared parenting legislation (like in Oregon) has resulted only in more false allegations of domestic violence, child abuse and rape with no punishment of women for those false allegations.

Game is nothing more than the manipulation of stupid women for sex. If it’s more, I’m not aware of any intentions otherwise expressed by PUA’s. It compromises the integrity of the population of men as a whole who want their freedom and financial security and children back.

There are large sections of the Bible devoted to the fate of men who manipulate women this way. It is never good. It is what caused our problems in the first place. When feminists and women started asserting themselves and imposing their stupidity upon everyone else, there were too many men who were more than happy to accommodate them instead of condemn them.

PUA’s are feminists. They are the enemy. That’s how we got where we are. The problem of PUA’s is the flip side of the feminist coin and just as bad and has no business in a civilized society and offer no contribution to the pursuit of freedom, financial security and repatriation of children.

The whole PUA thing and reference to sexuality in general needs to be purged from the MRM. The MRM has nothing to do with sexuality but instead is about the practical and fundamental elements of civilization and management of those elements. It is not the business or myself or anyone else how I or anyone else pursues or expresses sexuality.

As long as it doesn’t interfere with the practical and fundamental elements of my survival, freedom, financial security and children. The PUA thing sounds like a cult similar to feminism or is a part of the feminism cult which promotes promiscuity, no female agency or responsibility and threatens man- and father-hood just as much.

Teaching men how to manipulate stupid vulnerable women and exploit them for sex or other things is evil. I know because there are many men with whom I work who do this kind of thing and they make my skin crawl. They are considered strong men and leaders in our ranks because of their ability to manipulate women. They aren’t strong.

Instead they are weak because they do not have the balls to confront the evil women in our ranks and hold them responsible and accountable. They just manipulate them for their own advantage and the disadvantage of everyone else who tries to do the right thing. PUA’s have been an important obstacle to the destruction of feminism at any level and that nonsense must stop.

Because of PUA’s, instead of being able to eliminate immediately a radical gender feminist nut-job from my ranks, it took seven years and was only accomplished after the PUA puppet-master died (from stress of the constant, persistent and perpetual and unrelenting attacks by me and other real men) and then the nut-job was transferred to a remote location where she was neutralized and couldn’t do any damage. We’re still trying aggressively to eliminate her and with the PUA puppet-master out of the way, it will be much easier.

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Old Guy September 11, 2012 at 08:22

Most of the negative comments I see about Game(ers) are the product of ignorance and hate filled stereotyping.

Game is simply understanding the mating dance. Who you dance with and your desired outcome is up to you. What the knowledge the Seduction community has developed does is increase men’s sexual options. Most of the horror stories could be averted by dumping women the first time they show you their true colors. Many men, despite what they claim, do not have the ability to replace a defective girlfriend quickly. If a girlfriend is what you want, knowing how to do the mating dance successfully shortens the acquisition time and increases your options.

Not getting women pregnant by accident is the other great preventative tactic.

If men just took their time getting serious, got rid of women who showed signs that they only value men for their usefulness to them or demonstrated signs of personality disorders, and made sure they did not get women pregnant needlessly, there would be far fewer horror stories.

The Haters may now chime in with their usual comments about bar skanks, STDs, FRAs, how they don’t need help because they could laid with ease if there were any women worthy of their greatness, and how they wouldn’t have any women dumb enough to fall for a guy in a fur hat anyway. I promise to feel crushed.

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Mats September 11, 2012 at 08:26

This Bangsphere vs MRA fight it’s a total waste of time.

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keyster September 11, 2012 at 08:28

I know one thing for sure. Back in my PUA days I would have never had enough time to write a blog, attend conferences, sell my “system” on DVD and criticize other groups I didn’t agree with.

If getting notches in your belt floats your boat, then sail on sailor.
Just remember she’s doing the same thing.
And one more thing, use protection because STD’s suck.

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Darryl X September 11, 2012 at 08:29

Oh, and a little note about adultery. When all those women kidnap their children and leave their husbands for another man, who do you think they are going to. Chances are it’s a PUA. PUA re the evil men describd in the Bible who sneak into the lives of othe men’s wives and seduce them to leave their husbands. there’s a special place in hell for these men.

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Uncle Elmer September 11, 2012 at 08:36

Like “herpes”, which results in painful, ulcerating dick sores for years, as well as varicose dick veins, and other delights.

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GSJockey September 11, 2012 at 09:31

Listen, these guys battling it out just need to breathe through their nose for a minute. Smoke a Lucky.

Guys just need to remember it’s important not to conflate “game” with PUA…

The former is essentially just Attitude–attitude that all men should learn (if you weren’t born with it) and live (whether you are single or in a relationship.)

The latter is a hobby. It’s like fishing or watching stock car racing–if it’s not your thing, don’t do it. And like those other hobbies, if you don’t participate–or if you do participate–who cares?

Relax. There’s a lot more important shit for us to worry about.

GS Jockey

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Rebel September 11, 2012 at 09:47

When men, collectively speaking, will be put under enough duress from the feminzi authority, they will unite and work as one (maybe).

We haven’t reached that degree of persecution yet.
Until then, men will continue to bicker one another.

WTF!

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JFinn September 11, 2012 at 09:48

There is virtually no guy who can’t get laid. There are an equal amount of girls and guys. The given girl doesn’t share a guy with multiple other girls. The given girl doesn’t get laid once in every two weeks, waiting for her guy to finish his round. The given girl who gets a lot of offers, she gets them from guys who are also pursuing other girls. They’re not all waiting on her.

I got laid last night. And the night before. And 3 nights before the night before. It was nice. It was not SALVATION. It did not slow down my aging, bring back my dead father, or cancel the Jersey Shore. I am not impressive. Just don’t shoot out of your league. If you do, not only will you likely fail, but for every guy who does this there is a lonely girl who doesn’t get approached. Sorry – math.

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Highwasp September 11, 2012 at 10:01

OT : (Girl Writes What?!) knocks it out of the park today with a video showing a Men’s Rights Activist (John the Other) putting up posters in Vancouver while idiotic Male Feminazis are attempting to tear the posters down. You have to see this to believe it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3Jz63_lGuSE

You don’t hate and fear African Americans, do you?
No, because you are decent human being.
You don’t have and fear Jews, do you?
Of course not, because you are a decent human being.
You don’t hate and fear lesbians and gays, do you?
Of course not, because you are a decent human being.
You don’t hate and fear women, do you?
No, because you are a decent human being.
You don’t hate and fear men, do you?
Do you? …DO YOU?!
MEN’S RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS!

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Gx1080 September 11, 2012 at 10:21

Sigh. Not this shit again.

As usual, as seen on PMAFT’s blog, is just a couple of morons stirring up shit on all blogs and everybody taking them at face value.

Last time was Alexnovy and his crazy anti-PUA, anti-paleo crusade and a guy that drummed the “people that use Game have no self-respect” line with dozens of sockpuppets.

This time is a guy that says this:

““who do not understand the history and politics of the situation.”

And I guess we have to be on the government ABC agencies payrolls to understand the situation, right Paul?

(I’ve heard evidence that Paul Elam is on the payroll of the government).

To all the men here? You really think the MRM wasn’t infiltrated and subverted, just like the Illuminati has done to every other movement? It’s called CONTROLLED OPPOSITION.

Paul Elam is the Alex Jones of the MRM. They are both disinfo agents.”

http://www.rooshv.com/the-mens-rights-movement-is-dead#comment-60987

Why everybody pays attention to crazies like him? No, seriously, why?

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keyster September 11, 2012 at 11:04

Like “herpes”, which results in painful, ulcerating dick sores for years, as well as varicose dick veins, and other delights.

Yeah, I’d still rather have the messy puss discharge, painful erratic urination and flu like symptoms from Chlamydia for a few weeks until the meds kick in. When the doctor puts a long stick up your dick hole to take his sample for testing is particularily horrific.

I dated a woman for a while who eventually got around to telling me she had herpies, “Remember that lump you see sometimes on my pussy”? I was sweating bullets for weeks.

You DO NOT want to insert your erect johnson into one of those walking petrie dishes without the proper abatement mechanism. If your dick doesn’t like it and you think you’ll go soft, take a viagra. And NEVER EVER believe a woman who says she’s on the pill.

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Gilgamesh September 11, 2012 at 11:08

If Roosh believes the MRM is dead then why did he waste his time talking about them?

If it were my decision I’d cut the PUAs free, but I doubt they’d go quietly, despite saying we’re no longer legitimate.

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Uncle Elmer September 11, 2012 at 11:23

“When the doctor puts a long stick up your dick hole to take his sample …”

Oh that’s nothing. With herpes the open sores are not so bad as the nerve inflammation prior to an “outbreak”, which feels like someone taking a pair of pliers and ripping all the nerves out of your legs and ass. Goes on for weeks. On a positive note, herpes declines significantly after about 10 years.

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Anonymous age 70 September 11, 2012 at 12:21

If that is true, Elmer, thanks, I didn’t know that. Of course at my age, I might not have the ten years, heh, heh.

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Anonymous age 70 September 11, 2012 at 12:42

By the way, a free tip for men who think when you are old, your sex life is all over. Of course, if you live in the US, it might be.

But, there are two reasons men lose it when they get old, barring terrible illnesses.

Imagine a balloon with two mouth-pieces, not one. And, a small pump connected to one of those mouth pieces, with a small valve between the pump and the input mouth piece, and a valve on the output mouth piece.

That is how your fertilizing tool works. Except it is blood and the output valve is your prostate thing-a-ma-bob.

The blood passes normally, and your penis is limp, until something motivates you, and the output valve closes, at which time your penis fills up and gets big.

Okay, when you are on a high carb diet, as recommended by most doctors, your veins and arteries going in get clogged, which is like closing a valve between the pump and the balloon. And, you can’t get it up.

I have been on a low-carb diet for five years, and my b.p. is 108/64 plus or minus 4 points. My veins and arteries are squeaky clean. The input valve is wide open.

At 70, that sucker no longer points down as it did for years. When it is working, it is perfectly horizontal. Just like it was when I was a teen.

The other issue is reduced testosterone. Here in Mexico, I don’t even need a prescription. Walk into a pharmacy, and pay around $80 for a month. It is the same as sold in the US as Androgel.

You rub it on your skin every day.

There are myths that it gives you prostate cancer, but a 42 month study of over 100 older men showed only 2 cases of prostate cancer. Maybe the injectible stuff will, I do not know.

Not only does that solve the reduced libido, but also I have gained maybe 8 or ten pounds of muscle, thus disqualifying myself for the Olympics, heh, heh. In the 42 month study, average muscle gain was around 6.6 pounds.

You need not fear getting old.

The low carb diet lets your tool get big and high, and the testosterone keeps it up for a while.

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Tholian Soren September 11, 2012 at 12:44

As someone balanced equidistant, age-wise, between the two camps, i feel an affinity for both. I’m divorced, early 40′s, still fit and attractive, and have decided that one of the benefits of my ex-wife declaring “i’m not haaaaaaapy” was that I could pursue model-quality younger women for recreational pursuits. But I also have seen enough of life to understand that many of the MRAs issues, particularly those espoused by father’s rights advocates, are vitally important to the future of society. Indeed, the attention and resolution these issues get (or lack of same) will SHAPE our future.

The previous para was simply to establish cred that i understand both sides and their respective issues resonate with me. That said, two observations come to mind:

1) The natural competition amongst men and, therefore, amongst men’s groups, that Price points out is a very real phenomenon. Numerous other bloggers, such as “Anonymous Aged 70″ (Irlandes from the “Don’t Get Married” board) have pointed it out, too. Men try to one up each other. It’s a fact of life. We should be aware of it. We should celebrate it. We compete on the ballfield and we will compete in the blogosphere as well. It’s important to keep this reality in mind because, every once in a while, it wouldn’t hurt to remind each other that we are, in fact, on the SAME team, not different teams.

2) While i see the virtue and need for both the PUA side and the MRA side, i do not see each side as performing equally admirably. The PUA side seems true to its nature – that is, they focus on achieving their desired end game — beguiling lots of attractive young women into bed. But some – like Roissy, Krauser, and earlier John Ross, also philosophize about what it means to be a man in a world where the traditional markers of manhood – supporting a stable family – have been taken out of his control. They do an admirable job of that, at least as well as most MRA bloggers. What the PUA side does NOT do, in my experience, is delve into whiny self-indulgence, passive-aggressiveness, or wallow in “whoa is me”.

The MRA side, sadly, does have such a meloncholy streak to it. Most don’t. Most, like Price, nobly go on about their business like men, while pointing out the myriad hypocrisies in modern family law. Some do yeoman’s work in advocacy, like Fathers For Justice. But a not insignificant percentage lapse into defeatism. The old “Don’t Get Married” blog, and some posters i could name here (but won’t), had a distincitve “Women have won, let’s just admit defeat” streak to it. They sounded like – and i hate to use this phrase, it got me banned from the old DGM site, but i’m afraid it’s true and others are now saying it – they sound like losers. There, i said the “L” word – so shoot me. ALL men are faced with the same circumstance – a nearly complete obliteration of 2,000 years worth of societal tradition, everything that helped us climb out of our mud huts and into CIVILIZATION. When life gives men lemons, we make lemonade. As John Ross said (i’m paraphrasing), “My first choice was to have a family. When my wife cashed out, I then went on to my second choice: sport-f**king young beauties, enjoying wonderful vacations, and picking whatever flowers I may”. But some MRA sites don’t espouse this. They are, as I said, a minority – but a distinctive minority. They use ad absurdum attacks (“why, you can’t even LOOK at a woman today or you’ll be executed and then put in jail for life”) instead of stating the reality: It is very risky to subject oneself to family law today, but many have pulled it off successfully. One can recognize the “L-word” element in MRA blogs today because they all reach the same conclusion: “You should have NOTHING to do with women. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nothing”. The unspoken addendum: “…and then you’ll be exactly like ME, because women don’t talk to me either – er, i mean, I don’t talk to women”.

We should honor the manly MRAs and PUAs and recognize they have a common enemy. But we should ostracize L-word MRAs who advocate capitulation because “no matter what we do, we can’t win…women will always beat us”; they have the stink of the death about them.

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Anonymous age 70 September 11, 2012 at 12:46

By the way, testosterone also increases energy and ambition levels. I am guessing it is testosterone which makes men so much more productive and inventive than women.

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Survivorman September 11, 2012 at 12:48

I’m in my mid-50′s now – and it seems that much of what a 50-something year old man has learned — cannot be communicated to man in his 20′s..

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alpha September 11, 2012 at 12:58

imho, PUAs are a bunch of desperate sex-syarved men who will do anything to get laid-and for some reason, this makes them different form white knights, manginas, or any other man?No-what the frack does PUA do for men’s rights? the state tracks down fathers/husbands like they were literally tracking terrorists-PUA is going to fix this? I think not.
PUAS are good for attacking MRA sites and calling MRAs “whiny girls”
for some reason,this separates them from feminsts?

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TFH September 11, 2012 at 13:49

Let’s address finding common cause.

I say that any man who is overtly non-complying with feminism, is damaging feminism.

Hence, Roosh and Paul Elam are both damaging feminism, but in very different ways. I am a fan of both.

Neither one of them understands the other, but that is secondary.

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Anonymous age 70 September 11, 2012 at 14:02

@Price >>Since they started working on the problems in the 80s,

Um, 70′s, not 80′s. I just looked yesterday and one man that I knew who was an FRA/MRA activist in the 70′s still is listed as working with men. Not to mention Richard Doyle, who was active well over 30 years, until 2008 when he was 78 and his wife had a stroke.

One man I knew who was an activist around 1981 helped write the joint custody law in his state in recent years.

But, your point is well taken. Accusations that MRA’s don’t do activism are highly uninformed. New people don’t know the history, for two reasons. First, the MSM refuses to portray men as victims of divorce; only women can ever be victims of anything. So, there is no MSM documentation of MRM activism. Second, the most effective activists, as far as getting laws changed, have to cut a low profile in the press, and it takes many years to establish credibility with offcials and legislators..

Recently, on Dalrock (without a doubt the best blogger/writer on men’s issues on the Web, even if he is wrong about no marriage strike in existence) an older man came on and White Knighted, implying men who got divorced, it was their own fault. Another man took him to task based on his age and generation. What utter nonsense. In 1975, there were over 2 million marriages, and over 1 million divorces. Older men certainly know about divorce, unless they are stupid. Age has nothing to do with it. That man was stupid because he was stupid, not because he was old or another generation.

Let me review. PUA’s are evil. Gamers are evil. Tradcons are all evil. SoCons are all evil. MRA’s are not only evil, but are also divorced losers who can’t get laid, and are not into activism of any kind. Old people are evil. Other generations are also evil and stupid. So who have I forgotten? Oh, yes, the entire manosphere is evil, was that Elam who said that recently, I think I need a script to keep up with who is pissed off at whom?

This is not new. I was an activist in the early 80′s until early 1993. No matter what I did, no matter how much publicity I got for the FRA/MRM, there were do-nothing men in my face telling me what a pathetic cretin I was, and how I was doing it wrong. When asked what they would do, they all said, “Oh, no, I am a very, very, very busy man and simply don’t have time. But, if I had time, I could make this work.”

We called them Destroyers, because they would attack and attack real activists until they broke up the group, then wander off, saying, “I knew they were doing it wrong.”

So, this major fight between groups is simply men in action. Yes, it is called form a circle and fire at the center.

After years of this nonsense, I realized the only rational decision was to GTHO, and let the little boys in men’s bodies fight it out. Please carry on.

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El Bastardo September 11, 2012 at 14:33

As someone who still straddles both camps (although definitely moving closer to the latter), I try to present some balance. It might be a futile effort, and as I suggested the competition between the groups might not be a terrible thing, but it’s important for there to be a bridge, and I guess I’m going to stand here by that bridge with a fire hose to try to save it from being burned down. I have a feeling it will come in handy for a lot of men.

-Welmer

Can’t agree more. I’m definitely on that fire party! The sad thing is we have too many pouring fuel on the blaze.

The difference though between men and women is that when two women come to the party wearing the same thing they are apt to fight eachother. When two men realize they are at the same party wearing the same thing the are more apt to respect eachother’s taste with a nod of aproval and keep working their rounds!

I think the reason feminist on both sides of the isle hate eachother (Sarah Palin and Tina Fey for eample) is that is how they are wired. Men on the other hand are wearing the same thing more or less; but don’t realize that both statements are just as offensive to their prey as the others. When we realize we are both in the same conference, if not batting for the same team, then it won’t matter! We get to rolling with it.

I think our bigger threat is if those in government cannot figure out how to control us. That will be a problem; with feminists it was give them what they want, and they hand you the keys to more power. Give men what we wwant, and we take all the power away but what we feel they need to be effective!

Uncle Sam cannot have that now can he?

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greyghost September 11, 2012 at 15:24

I like it Welmer. I don’t see any thing wrong with game and as GSJockey said the PUA uses game as his tool to enjoy being a PUA. MRA’s use game to bring hysteria amungst the female population. Married men use game to survive being in an flesh eating man trap. Hell game can be a tool to get out of a speeding ticket from a female cop for the hot rodder. (maybe even get some ass)
So as greyghost would annouce at a PUA convention “You fellas enjoy yourselves, me an MRA father’s rights kind of 47 year old married father of three guy . I’m going to work to make sure when you get tired of fucking them sluts and spanking those butts you will have a place to go. Those MGTOW fellas over there will help you out when you have truely had enough. What you do is important for men and my son. You don’t need to know why until you ask but the more successful you are the more successful we all are.”
I think we as MRA leaders need to always try and understand the needs desires and stages of life of all men. And one more thing to add. Men like zed and any 70 have been MRA’s a long time a nd have seen the MRM get derailed with infighting over and over. Today we add that to what we address. and Today we have “game” and misandry that is out in the open. We also have greyghost and he is an extrodinary gentleman kinda like that guy in the beer commercials that is very interesting. Use good leadership and a sense of humour to help sooth the pain and learn to enjoy women being miserable living as feminist.
Thank you Welmer Price for having this history changing blog.

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keyster September 11, 2012 at 15:42

Comparing PUA/Gamers to MRA’s is like comparing The Sex Pistols to Mozart. It’s VERY different music. We don’t even share the same stage.

Each has about as much relevance to the other as a fish does to a bicycle. But then men INSIST on competing over anything they can find; a ball, a fast car, a pretty girl, an idea or concept. It’s what we do.

Imagine the NFL telling the PGA they’re a bunch of good for nothing losers because they don’t run and tackle each other. Now imagine PUA/Gamers criticizing MRA’s. That’s how much sense it makes.

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Bob September 11, 2012 at 16:07

«Until men start to realize they have worth outside of the female paradigm
we’re going nowhere *Fast and Furious*.»
Amen!

Like Troll king said, «I have always seen PUA and MRA and Fathers Rights and so on as different folders in the same file.» If we are at war with each other we will ultimately all end as SLAVE! Feminist will laugh to death about how stupid males are and inferior to them. And they will be unfortunatly right!

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Thor September 11, 2012 at 17:45

I post at Heartiste’s blog a lot. It’s a pretty big tent over there. Most of the hostility I see, unfortunately comes from this page. Spearhead caters to a somewhat different readership, but I think its a great piece of work overall and am a regular reader here. My handle there is different.

I’m married and happily so because I learned game and how to use it within an LTR. What many men fail to do is give their woman that sexual thrill she seeks and will find elsewhere if need be. Game can teach any man how tom do that. Once you learn how to press a woman’s buttons, you can have them eating from your hand. Even if you’ve sworn off women, you likely know younger men who could use the wealth of knowledge available from PUA. I wish I had learned it much much earlier.

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Bob Smith September 11, 2012 at 19:32

“Presumed joint legal custody in dozens of states is yet another victory.”

Not really, it’s mostly pointless in terms of actual treatment of fathers. Mom still gets near 100% physical custody (which is all that really matters), and the size of child support payments is not affected by whether dad has any level of legal custody.

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Rant Casey - BR September 11, 2012 at 19:39

Wise words, Welmer, wise words.

I am glad to read that.

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Pirran September 11, 2012 at 20:08

Umm….wasn’t this the same debate we had a couple of weeks back on Bill’s post “MGTOW and Game: Both Have Something to Offer”?

I’m sure others are right; Roosh was just trying to push up his numbers, but the whole debate is effete. Leave the extremes to sling shit at each other whilst the rest of us get on with our lives. I’ve got no problem with PUA or MRA, they simply reflect differing stages of development.

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Paul Murray September 11, 2012 at 20:30

What can the MRA community do to *help* the PUA community?
What can the PUA community do to *help* the MRA community?

The main goal of both, at this stage, is to get the word out, “Guys, you do not need to be screwed over by the women in your life or by the broader system. Here is some info.”

The obvious thing to do here is cross linking.

Another thing that can be done is to just give a little respect. When a dude comes on MGTOW forums complaining that he can’t get laid, the thing to do is not to answer “you shouldn’t want to”, but “you need some good info – go to heartiste”. The older guys need to see it as a duty to help younger guys and to respect that when you are young, women are part of your life.

On the other side of things, the MRAs need people to sign petitions, and at the moment, the trend is postering and dealing with feminist brownshirts. If the PUAs could see MRA-related activities as an investment in their own futures, that would be a good start.

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W.F. Price September 11, 2012 at 21:42

the most effective activists, as far as getting laws changed, have to cut a low profile in the press, and it takes many years to establish credibility with offcials and legislators..

-anonymous age 70

Yes, I know that, and that’s why I’ve always hesitated to call myself an “MRA.”

Being a political activist is not the same as being a publisher. I’ve been flamed for making the distinction, but I’m glad I did.

Nutz September 11, 2012 at 21:58

I’m going to post what I formalized as my position a while ago when Paul Elam tried to attack “game” by championing his own style of game (get a shower, go meet people, etc).

Game/Pickup and the Men’s Rights Movement both fall under the lager umbrella of the Men’s Movement that’s taking shape. Both are in response to the social and legal changes we’ve witnesses over the last several decades, largely as a result of feminism.

While the Men’s Rights Movement seeks legal equality for men and to correct some mistakes brought about by overzealous feminists and the politicians that pander to them, Game/Pickup seeks to give men the skills and tools to operate in the social and legal framework that’s going to be with us for some time. Game is just one flavor of MGTOW. Some guys would rather win the game by not playing it, so they move overseas to less feminized nations, or opt out of interacting with women as much as possible. I don’t have a problem with any of that, in fact if you’re going to live in the US the rest of your life I strongly suggest you live in a non-westernized nation for at least a few months in order to get some perspective.

Anyway, some guys find “pickup gurus” or dating coaches, aka mentors, to teach them how to get sex without much investment or on their own terms, whatever form that may be, or to simply learn how to find quality women to have relationships with. The end-game goal of why people learn to **improve their social skills with women** is entirely up to the practitioner. Again, the usage of Game is only one of several ways of MGTOW.

Now, my biggest problem with the Game/pickup community at the moment is the lack of infusing their teachings with some key elements of the MRM, chief among them IMO are the issues of false rape accusations and absurd child support calculations, and how fickle women can be combined with how marriage can utterly ruin you if you don’t prepare for contingencies (eg divorce theft), as well as the reality how women get to have choice post-conception, but men only have responsibility. These issues are very real risks for those who are learning how to better their interactions with women in order to get laid and/or have relationships with them.

If you are like me and teach Game in one way or another, you need to start advising men of these risks! To not do so is hugely irresponsible as far as I’m concerned. You don’t have to go full MRM, but advising them of the issues I posted above, as well as pointing them in the direction of A Voice For Men, The Spearhead, Girl Writes What, the mensrights reddit, and then National Coalition for Men are a good start.

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TFH September 11, 2012 at 22:52

I fully agree with Tholian Soran above. Very, very accurate.
_________________

Once again :

1) Any man who is overtly non-complying with feminism is damaging it. Both Roosh and Paul Elam are damaging feminism.

2) A lot more things in your life are in your control, than you realize. Especially in this day and age with so much information at your fingertips.

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walking in hell2 September 11, 2012 at 23:15

I have only seen this controversy issue in America. It is easy to have consensus amongst men in other countries. For example, in Czech Republic, men who are between 20 to 70 gather at strip clubs and have a beer with each other and watch the girls.

American men are so divided and conquered, they don’t know any better. The younger American men who have not traveled have never experienced beautiful women.

I will never forget the times when I was in Czech Republic and American men were in a Czech Strip club, and some hooker entered the room, immediately the men would become competitive, trying to outdo each other. And for what? A hooker. They were the only nationality of men who would behave in this way.

The reason is simple. Beautiful women are such a rarity in America, that seeing one is like seeing a diamond lying on the ground. Everyone dives at once.

When I was in Prague, once I saw a fat American girl in McDonalds late on a Friday night. She was drunk and talking about sex, desperately looking for someone to take her home. No one was interested. In fact American women used to come and teach English in Prague, but would rarely last a semester because they couldn’t find any boyfriends.

Young American men should travel. I have seen young American men who came to Prague, spend six months or so in Prague and visited other cities. When they went back to America, they became hermits. They realized that their gaming energy and efforts were going towards getting laid by pigs.

In Europe, beautiful girls approached them; in America they had to work hard for pigs. Once they realized this, they were changed for life.

Sex with American women is bestiality, and it is expensive in time, effort and money. Where is the justification for this?

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Gilgamesh September 11, 2012 at 23:31

Anything you could learn from PUAs you could learn from Henry Kissinger.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 04:57

@ Nutz -

“While the Men’s Rights Movement seeks legal equality for men and to correct some mistakes brought about by overzealous feminists and the politicians that pander to them, Game/Pickup seeks to give men the skills and tools to operate in the social and legal framework that’s going to be with us for some time.”

But it enables and promotes and strengthens feminism and protracting the duration it will be with us and disadvantages other men more and in more important practical ways, especially those men who have already been crushed by feminism.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 05:10

@ alpha re September 11, 2012 at 12:58 -

Agreed 100%. I have never on any site attacked Game or promoted the alternative but instead have stuck with a consistent message attacking feminism and its crimes against men and children. The only time I have ever encountered a distraction on any site from quantitative and qualitative attack on feminism is when Gamers keep promoting their feral, irresponsible and destructive tactics which actually promotes feminism and attacking and ridiculing and belittling those who don’t use Game. It really is hurting the MRM, promotes feminism and distracts fromt the fight against feminism. Game simply promotes and encourages and rewards the irresponsible behavior or women and corrupts the minds of men who believe that this primitive and childish and feral approach to dealing with women is somehow advantageous to men or women or civilization. It’s not.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 05:42

@ Tholian Soren -

“What the PUA side does NOT do, in my experience, is delve into whiny self-indulgence, passive-aggressiveness, or wallow in “whoa is me”.”

You’re correct. But what the MRA’s don’t do and what Gamers do is shamelessly promote their tactics above all else and ridicule those who don’t subscribe to them and they really don’t have a very good grasp of the problem of feminism and believe that their “solution” will at least help themselves if not anyone else and will likely hurt everyone else. Including themselves in the long run.

The reason Gamers can shamelessly promote their tactics is because they don’t understand the consequences of their behavior. One thing I’ve noticed throughout my life, there’s a big difference between performance of those who proceed with complete confidence and those who do not. Those who proceed with complete confidence are usually too stupid to be aware of what they don’t know and don’t understand.

Those who actually try to acquaint themselves with reality and analyze a situation before they go jumping in feet-first usually don’t have as much confidence because they understand the risks involved. Gamers are very short-sighted in this respect. Others are not. Women do not like men who are not confident. The problem is that men who are not confident are usually the ones more likely to succeed because they have analyzed a situation and identified the best way to succeed.

Those men who are confident usually are too stupid to have been able to analyze a situation or problem and successfully overcome it. But to a woman, they look good. Which is all that seems to count anymore. That’s why the entire global economy is falling apart. To much support for confident stupid people and not enough support for smart people who are not so confident.

And as far as this whole debate about Game or not, I do not promote such a debate and think everyone should stick to the facts and destroy feminism. I really never thought much about Game and its relevance to the MRM until I encountered this website. That being written, as long as it is going to constantly be thrown in my face and distract from more important matters, I will condemn Game and its implications for the MRM and fight against feminism everytime it is there.

For those who have condemned such disagreement on sites like this, you should track that disagreement to its source, Gamers, and condemn them instead of just throwing all of us into the same group. Some of us have been very active for decades fighting feminism. I don’t give Gamers one thought as long as they condemn feminism and fight against it. Get in my face about it and promote it like a barker at a carnival and I’ll take anyone to task on it.

I have never been a PUA or Gamer. Even as a young man I recognized it for the intellectual dishonesty it promotes. But I guess some guys have used this tactic in youth to get laid. To the disadvantage and at the expense of men like me and our children. Some men never grow up and still use this tactic. I don’t judge people, especially men. Feminism has done a lot of damage throughout the world. There are a lot of consequences. I don’t care who you are, but as long as you are fighting feminism and recognize that I want a relationship with my children some day and will need a place to live and food to eat and health care. Take that away from me and you’ve got a fight on your hands. And you’ll lose.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 07:43

@ Old Guy -

“Most of the negative comments I see about Game(ers) are the product of ignorance and hate filled stereotyping.”

You’re writing in extreme hyperbole. I can’t speak to the accusation about ignorance because there may or may not be any ignorance on the part of myself and others, but there definitely is NO hate filled sterotyping. I won’t write for others, but I am just tired of the unprovoked and incessant promotion and marketing of Game and PUArtistry on sites which are trying to keep the focus on destroying feminism and feminists. Game and PUA promotes feminism. And whether you agree or disagree with that assessment, it’s promotion and incessant marketing and uprovoked attacks on and condemnation of those who dismiss it interferes with and compromises the fight against feminism. If anything, the ignorant and hate filled stereotyping is from Gamers and PUA’s. Not real men who are trying to stop the advancement of feminism. Black is white. Truth is lies. Censorship is free speech. You’re not helping.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 07:47

The MRM is not about getting laid. It’s about recovering the freedom and children and financial security of men, all of which has been stolen from and denied them under a brutal feminist regime. How anyone man or woman Gamer or otherwise pursues expresses their sexuality is their business under any political, legal, financial or social umbrella. It’s not relevant to freedom, children and financial security. If sex is that big a part of your life that it eclipses all these other far more important elements, then you need to get a life.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 07:50

@ Justin and Tom September 11, 2012 at 07:53 -

“This whole controversy was manufactured by a PUA salesperson (Roosh?) trying to bait the MRM into linking to his site -> generate traffic -> sell more stuff.

“It’s a fairly common link-building strategy (called “link baiting”): you write something controversial to bait people into linking to your website. Since Google considers every link as a vote of confidence, you’ll rank higher on Google’s search results.”

Thanks for this great assessment of the Game / PUA phenomenon. It’s about as good a one as I’ve read and probably describes best their motives.

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keyster September 12, 2012 at 08:21

There’s nothing more pathetic than watching a middle aged man in a bar trying to employ game on some younger woman. At some point you have to grow up and stop playing it. The OBSESSION with “scoring” and controlling “the frame” through “negs” and all that gets really sad after a while.

It’s neither authentic or original. It’s young men re-discovering a verneer of masculinity that feminism beat out of the previous generation. If you’re no longer permitted to be a man, you can at least fake it ’til you make it. “I’m not really a confident high-status stud, I just play one when I go out clubbing.”

Look at Roosh. He’s a very good looking guy.
Do you honestly believe he needs Game to get laid?

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Madvillainy September 12, 2012 at 08:28

I discovered the manosphere three years ago. Like many others the first sites I found were Roissy/Heartiste and then The Spearhead. Ironically, many of the MRA type ideas I learned from reading game-advocate Roissy, which is not surprising because Roissy has the exact same views as any MRA and has written many excellent MRA type articles. Check the archives. He just has absolutely no desire to get involved in the “acvtivist” part. Who can blame him? Just like most men are not cut out to be expert PUAs (or have a desire to), most men have no desire or ability to be activists either, like posting flyers around town. Let’s be realistic. (TFH scoffed).

But just writing about this stuff in the first place is being an activist. Heartiste and Price have exposed more men to anti-feminist/pro-man thought than most others. That in itself is a worthy contribution to men. Good writing on a consistent basis is hard, maintaining a blog that people read is hard. They do it. They’re activists for men in my opinion. (Along with the other good manopshere writers out there, just follow the blog links.)

I share Price’s reasonable view on this whole thing. Keoni Galt also wrote a good recent post about this. I take what I need from the various Manosphere sites, from MRA to Game. My paradigm has been so thoroughly red-pilled that it’s to the point now where I mostly read the Manosphere for entertainment purposes. The mansophere has helped me personally. I feel intellectually and emotionally liberated from the female imperative. It’s a weight off.

People sometimes say that women are able to band together more so than men and work for Team Women. Is that really true? Women AFOG (alpha female of group) each other just as much as men do, the difference is that they are less effective at it because they’re more passive-aggressive and backstabbing about it. Men are more overt and aggressive in their attempts to establish a dominant position. And, the big thing, women have endless numbers of men helping them out directly and indirectly, whereas men don’t have the same. Without men helping it along feminism would have gotten nowhere. Women need men, it would kill them to admit it though.

I was naive in the beginning and thought that the mansophere would be one big happy brotherhood working together. Haha, that’s pretty funny. But that’s okay that it isn’t, the existence of the manosphere itself is a miracle. I’m good with that. My one requirement is that it stays unapologetically anti-feminist.

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Avenger September 12, 2012 at 09:16

Look at Roosh. He’s a very good looking guy.

Are you serious? On what planet?

Do you honestly believe he needs Game to get laid?

From what I read on his blog and from the couple of pics it looks like the girls are just ordinary and that’s assuming that he didn’t pay them to pose with him for the pic so he could sell books to the inept and naive.
It also appears that he spent a lot of time in the worst areas of Eastern Europe and in the worst clubs where the female were like whores and that he paid them in one form or another.
The guy is also a pauper. perhaps he shouldconcentrate more of making some money and a career than spending his life trying to shag ordinary girls. None of these pickup ‘gurus” were ever sucessful with women, by their own admission, so perhaps they’re trying to prove something to themselves but it’s really pitiful.

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Avenger September 12, 2012 at 09:41

1) Any man who is overtly non-complying with feminism is damaging it. Both Roosh and Paul Elam are damaging feminism

They are having no effect on feminism.There are people who are damaging feminism but few of them are operating under some men’s movement banner.
Rosh is just some poor guy looking to sell books to boys who never learned how to interact with females, from kindergarten on, and never managed to figure the female behaviour out by themselves. They’re also boys who have a big sense of entitlement and think that the 10′s are for them (btw, they have no idea what a real 10 is or what combination of qualkities make a 10) They’re basically not too good looking boys with bad personalities who believe that through some magic pickup lines the 10 is going to jump into bed with them.

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zed September 12, 2012 at 10:03

There’s nothing more pathetic than watching a middle aged man in a bar trying to employ game on some younger woman.

Yes there is –
a fat, fiftyish, entitled blob of womanhood, with a face that looks like a gravel road over which she has troweled a thick layer of makeup trying to hide the potholes, on the prowl for her 3rd or 4th future ex-husband, standing/sitting around waiting for the rich hunky handyman who is a secret millionaire to come up and game her – all the while bitching about how shallow men are for not being impressed by her 5 worthless college degrees and preferring women who are younger, tighter, prettier, and less expensive.

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Common Monster September 12, 2012 at 10:26

You figure out who’s who:

“…the goal is, and has been for more than 30 40 years, to criminalize as much normal male behavior as possible, and sucker as many men into it as possible.”
– zed

Bros before hos, and bros before male feminists and pimps, too.

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zed September 12, 2012 at 10:46

While the Men’s Rights Movement seeks legal equality for men and to correct some mistakes brought about by overzealous feminists and the politicians that pander to them, Game/Pickup seeks to give men the skills and tools to operate in the social and legal framework that’s going to be with us for some time. Game is just one flavor of MGTOW.

That is as good a summary as I have seen.

If society were the Titanic, the SoCons and feminists are standing on the deck shooting men who try for seats in the lifeboats, MRAs are arguing that men deserve an equal chance at those seats, and Gamers/MGTOW are tearing up decking planks and smashing furniture in order to build their own life rafts because they don’t believe cultural conditions will change soon enough to do them any good.

I would take it a step further and say that the reason men need Game is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to gain any traction at all.

And, the reason the MRM has failed to gain any traction, is that it relies on men.

I commented on Roosh’s post that the MRM was certainly dead – in fact, it was DOA, stillborn. I say this as a man who spent decades trying to get men off their asses and stand up for their rights. The “women’s movement” took off like a road flare tossed into a pile of dry straw. Twenty years and counting of trying to get something started on the men’s side of the gender divide was like trying to start a fire in a pile of wet newspapers with a book of paper matches.

Most of us eventually gave up and went on the “Armies of One” phase, followed for most of them by the “fuggit, I’m outta here” GTOW phase.

Lot’s of people have touched on why men won’t cooperate, but Keyster’s summation is as good as any –

men INSIST on competing over anything they can find; a ball, a fast car, a pretty girl, an idea or concept. It’s what we do.

Oh, they will form a team to cooperate in competition against another team, but men just don’t have exactly the same herding instinct that makes all women default to playing for Team Woman. You can’t get an average man to play for Team Man even if you put a gun to his head. You can’t form a Team Man to compete against Team Woman, because at least half of all men are already playing for Team Woman.

TFH delivers the punchline –

2) A lot more things in your life are in your control, than you realize.

… provided, of course, the man steps up and takes control.

MRAs, god bless their little pea-picking hearts, still believe in the social contract and are trying to get it revised to be more fair to men. If SoCons weren’t so stupid they would realize that MRAs are their allies and are trying to salvage the Social Contract – as opposed to those who are now using it as toilet paper – they would stop fighting them and start listening to them and supporting them. MRAs are the only chance to save any part of the Social Contract, even if it is now in shreds.

And, MRAs, if they had any sense at all, would take themselves out of the middle and stop fighting the Gamers while the SoCons stab them in the back, and fighting the SoCons while the Gamers stab them in the back.

MRAs are fighting for a negotiated comprise between 2 sides which are totally hostile toward each other – and serve as the proxy enemy for both sides to beat up while avoiding confronting the people who completely oppose them.

A huge problem in terms comes from using “MRM” and “MRAs” interchangeably – as if a group of MRAs is the MRM.

Thus, when someone observes that the MRM has gone nowhere, the guys who busted their guts trying to make something happen – like Anonymous Age 70 – get personally offended.

There have been tons of good MRAs, but there is no real MRM. Men will never allow one to get started.

MGTOWs and Gamers have figured out that you can cover hundreds of times more ground if they don’t have to drag around a carload of dead wood with their heels dug into the ground.

The guys who attack MRAs for fighting for the rights of those men are going to turn out to be the biggest losers of all – because they stab the ones fighting for men’s rights in the back, and then do nothing.

Julian Assange was riding high, until the day he wasn’t and became a political prisoner.

“Oh Brave New World, that has such people in it.”

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zed September 12, 2012 at 10:55

The MRM is not about getting laid. It’s about recovering the freedom and children and financial security of men, all of which has been stolen from and denied them under a brutal feminist regime.

Stolen from them by men, mostly. Brain-dead, knuckle-dragging White Knight goons are enforces and the muscle of this shakedown. Manginas are White Knights who are too weak to put on and get around in the armor.

Focusing on women is the wrong strategy, because at least half of all men play for their side. We need to do a better job of spotting members of the rival gangs.

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W.F. Price September 12, 2012 at 11:03

Focusing on women is the wrong strategy, because at least half of all men play for their side. We need to do a better job of spotting members of the rival gangs.

-zed

I was thinking the same recently. It’s really the Joe Bidens, Barry Nolans and Josh Jaspers of the world we need to deal with. Men get a kick out of taking other men down; women, not so much. Well, then let’s take the white knighting goons down a notch or two.

TFH September 12, 2012 at 11:08

Madvillainy,

most men have no desire or ability to be activists either, like posting flyers around town. Let’s be realistic. (TFH scoffed).

We don’t need most to do it, only a few to do it. As far as I can tell, 5-7 guys spent serious time posting flyers under the URLs @ Urinals campaign. That may not seem like much, but over the last 20 months, we have collectively inched up to the requested 1000 hours.

Now, I would have preferred that more guys did it, so the 1000 hours were done within the first couple months, but as you rightly said, most won’t do it. That merely means that it takes longer.

And yes, traffic to the androsphere rose a lot during that time, as well as backlash (from the SPLC, etc.). Flyer posting that is a) in the smartphone age, and b) linked to the now-wide spectrum of sites available, far more so than even in 2008, was the combo.

There is no way to measure how much was due to flyers (let alone which flyers vs. others), but thousands of flyers posted, even by just 5-7 guys, scattered a lot of red pills across the landscape.

But as Zed said, men are better doing things as individuals. That is a trait that assists URLs @ Urinals, since a man posting flyers does not have to coordinate with any other man, get any other man’s opinion on his flyers, his location choices for posting, etc. It is very, very decentralized.

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TFH September 12, 2012 at 11:11

WFPrice,

I was thinking the same recently. It’s really the Joe Bidens, Barry Nolans and Josh Jaspers of the world we need to deal with.

Remember, the hierarchy of misandric zeal is :

Hardcore feminists > mangina/whiteknights > average women.

Average women just want to side with whoever is winning. If a patriarchal side was winning, they would side with that.

Manginas/whiteknights are a very large part, perhaps THE largest part, of the problem.

Men get a kick out of taking other men down;

Biologically, this made sense, since eliminating other men made the remaining men have more women for themselves. Women, on the other hand, gain very little from eliminating other women, since the apex alpha can impregnate all of them if necessary.

Too bad the human brain is outdated as per the requirements of this day and age.

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TFH September 12, 2012 at 11:21

zed’s 10:46 comment is great, and worthy of a full article itself. The choice lines :

I commented on Roosh’s post that the MRM was certainly dead – in fact, it was DOA, stillborn.

There have been tons of good MRAs, but there is no real MRM. Men will never allow one to get started.

Heh…. that is like when I call it a proto-movement, but not a movement.

A huge problem in terms comes from using “MRM” and “MRAs” interchangeably – as if a group of MRAs is the MRM.

Yep. Part of the reason people think this is that just about every other political cause gets organized in terms of what visually looks like an organized movement (I used to think this too). Men’s Rights is unique in that this can’t happen, since there is no cause more contrary to basic human nature. We are effectively fighting male expendability, the backbone of human society since the dawn of it.

No other cause is fighting against something so innate to human existence as male expendability.

I would take it a step further and say that the reason men need Game is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to gain any traction at all.

Ferdinand Bardamu wrote that in an article a couple of years ago as well. Game emerged to fill a vacuum, and could not have otherwise.

The key is…… let a million individual MRAs bloom…..

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Avenger September 12, 2012 at 12:57

Ferdinand Bardamu wrote that in an article

Oh yes, that great 20 something thinker and philosopher :)
He was just copying what I wrote long ago and that is that there is no reason to identify as a group or movement or even to have a name. Just individual men doing things and acting in their own interest. It should almost be instinctual and not even require discussion. Men may sometimes act together on certain things but it should not be under some MRM banner and they should appear to be just ordinary reasonable men not identified with belonging to any group.

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zed September 12, 2012 at 13:16

there is no reason to identify as a group or movement or even to have a name. Just individual men doing things and acting in their own interest. It should almost be instinctual and not even require discussion.

I think this is a very good description of the phenomenon which people seemed to decide must have a name, so they called it the “Marriage Strike.” Like any analogy, it breaks down badly when it is tortured.

“Well, it can’t be a strike because it isn’t organized.” “Well, there is no organized marriage strike, so there must not be one.”

People get totally hung up on a name.

But, when millions of men instinctually come to regard marriage as something akin to a medium security prison – where he would be sentenced to hard labor – and start to take the common sense approach to avoiding it, then people have to start trying to compartmentalize it with a name.

That is part of the reason why we chose the acronym MGTOW – it is almost impossible to turn into a sound-bite. Any attempt to shorten it tangles the tongue. It’s hard for them to call you names when they can’t even pronounce your name.

Most people would not take out a contract to buy a house for more than it was worth, and start out being underwater.

Well, fewer and fewer men are buying into the old social contract, because it is underwater.

When the old-social-contract-marriage-bubble (Marriage 2.0) bursts , it is going to make the housing and education bubbles look like a walk in the park.

How many men are going to be in the market for a well-used wife who is worth far less than half her asking price?

(all together now – “Waaaahhhh, where are all the GOOD men?”)

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Avenger September 12, 2012 at 13:31

MGTOW
The Emjetos

There was sort of a not getting married attitude when I was about 20 and I notice that people + or- a year or two did not seem to marry very much even into their 30′s and beyond.

But not getting married today may not mean anything if you’re living with someone because under the law you may have many of the same problems as the married and if you have a kid it may be even worse if the woman leaves than if you were legally married. You may be paying support and never see the kid and I know that happens with the divorced but it may be even worse with the not officially married.
I don’t know if there’s a marriage strike if you include people living together since that’s sort of a marriage.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 14:18

@ zed -

“I would take it a step further and say that the reason men need Game is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to gain any traction at all.”

“Focusing on women is the wrong strategy, because at least half of all men play for their side. We need to do a better job of spotting members of the rival gangs.”

I get that I’m fighting a losing argument here but I’ll try one last time. Gamers and PUA’s are white knights and manginas. They’re feminists. They’re basically feminist plants in the MRM here to parasitize off it.

They are an important obstacle to the MRM getting any traction. That should be so obvious to anyone as I know it is obvious to me and at least a few others who have posted on this thread and others. There’s only one kind of feminism and it is evil.

And there is only one MRM and it is not because it promotes relationships between fathers and their children, emancipation of turnips from prison, discourages jailing men for child support, reinstatement of passports and driver licenses, and financial security at no-one else’s expense. That’s it.

These expectations don’t need to be contaminated by a bunch of sex addicts and manginas and white-knights and manipulators. But when you have a bunch of guys running around saying it’s alright to steal and fuck some other man’s wife or to use a woman to take financial advantage of other men or to simply use women for recreational and sport fucking, then that destroys any legitimacy of the MRM.

And that is in essence what PUA and Gamers are. It’s reprehensible. And if that is what the MRM is or is going to turn into, I guess I can’t blame feminists for what they’re doing and I support them more than I support a bunch of PUA’s and Gamers and sex addicts. Do unto others as they would have them do unto you. The Golden Rule.

I think men in the MRM or at least who claim to be should take a course in civics and read the Bible. Just because there are evil people out there doesn’t mean you all need to stoop to their level. Two wrongs don’t make a right and all that. Honestly, I am very disappointed.

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TFH September 12, 2012 at 15:15

zed,

How many men are going to be in the market for a well-used wife who is worth far less than half her asking price?

Less than half?

Here is a numerical way to look at it.

Age 19-25 : Peak beauty, 10 points/year : 60 points total
Age 26-50 : Secondary beauty, 8 points/year : 40 points total
Age 31-34 : Tertiary beauty, 5 points/year : 20 points total

Total points : 120.

(‘Beauty’ can be replaced with ‘fertility’, and the point is the same, even though only a minority of all young/women are beautiful).

In the old days, Marriage 1.0 occurred at an age when the woman was not only a virgin, but still had most of her beauty points intact.

By her 26th birthday, half of her beauty points are gone (individual results may vary). And yes, in the old days, a woman of 26 who was still single had parents starting to get rather worried.

But nowadays, a woman showing up at age 32 demanding a provider has just 10 of her 120 lifetime beauty points remaining.

Just 10 out of 120. Even though the financial risks to men have risen vastly.

When the asset repricing and removal of misallocated investment occurs, it will be fun. Our job is to ensure the costs are borne by women and manginas.

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zed September 12, 2012 at 15:23

@ zed -

“I would take it a step further and say that the reason men need Game is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to gain any traction at all.”

Darryl X

I get that I’m fighting a losing argument here but I’ll try one last time.

I don’t know what you are arguing against, Darryl, but the fact that you are arguing at all is proof you don’t understand the situation.

Let me change the wording a bit to show the issues involved –
“I would take it a step further and say that the reason men are stealing bread is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to hold on to their ability to earn it legitimately.”

If the culture gives men only the choice between stealing bread or starving to death, most of them will resort to stealing. If they get caught stealing and executed for it, they are no worse off than if they “chivalrously” starved to death.

If men had been successful in holding a masculine frame within the culture, they would not be prey to armies of White Knights descending on their marriages and enforcing the female imperative on them.

But, since we weren’t, it is both unrealistic and self-destructive to hope that the men who come after us will follow us down the primrose path to peonage and prison. And, the more they are demanded to do that, the more they will hate the men doing the demanding.

Look behind you – guys who are around 30. Look at guys like Matt Forney, who just put up a post titled “We Come Not to Praise the Men’s Rights Movement, But to Bury It”
http://mattforney.com/2012/09/10/we-come-not-to-praise-the-mens-rights-movement-but-to-bury-it/

These guys hate our guts. Vox Day wants to see all the Boomers turned into dog food.

From the perspective of younger guys, we older guys sat around with our thumbs up our asses passing the bong, while feminists and SoCons took over their schools and their entire world, and broke all their kneecaps. Now, they face a group of men who are attacking them for the fact that they can’t dance so gracefully.

I think I remember that you said you were Gen X. Taking the generally agreed on cutoff point of 1964, I have been fighting this beastie since you were at most 6 years old.

Are you arrogant enough that you think you can teach grandpa how to suck eggs?

You are arguing emotionally, not rationally. You live in a world where a-holes like Jackass Joe Biden has funded a huge army of White Knights to invade other men’s marriages and force men to submit to the female imperative, just as his White Knight father enforced on him that his sister could beat the crap out of him and he could not fight back.

Well, since he couldn’t fight back, he is going to fuck over all other men by making sure they can’t fight back.

Like them or not, believe that they are evil or not, Gamers are fighting back in a way that older men did not.

It is a tsunami of social change. Disagreeing with it is not going to hold it back.

Head for high ground, or drown.

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TFH September 12, 2012 at 15:25

Darryl X said :

Chances are it’s a PUA. PUA re the evil men describd in the Bible who sneak into the lives of othe men’s wives and seduce them to leave their husbands. there’s a special place in hell for these men.

Wait, so the woman is not at all responsible for making her own choices? You don’t hold the woman to the same standard of accountability as men?

At the same time, you say :

Gamers and PUA’s are white knights and manginas.

When anyone makes a waaaaay off-base accusation, it is usually projection.

This is even before one gets into the fact that Game is useful in LTRs, and those who conflate Game with PUA just cannot grasp what it is…

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zed September 12, 2012 at 15:26

shit! Missed a closing tag. Bill, help! Either get a preview function here, or at least give us the ability to edit our posts if we miss a tag.

Take 2 –

@ zed -

“I would take it a step further and say that the reason men need Game is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to gain any traction at all.”

Darryl X
I get that I’m fighting a losing argument here but I’ll try one last time.

I don’t know what you are arguing against, Darryl, but the fact that you are arguing at all is proof you don’t understand the situation.

Let me change the wording a bit to show the issues involved –
“I would take it a step further and say that the reason men are stealing bread is due to the fact that the MRM has failed to hold on to their ability to earn it legitimately.”

If the culture gives men only the choice between stealing bread or starving to death, most of them will resort to stealing. If they get caught stealing and executed for it, they are no worse off than if they “chivalrously” starved to death.

If men had been successful in holding a masculine frame within the culture, they would not be prey to armies of White Knights descending on their marriages and enforcing the female imperative on them.

But, since we weren’t, it is both unrealistic and self-destructive to hope that the men who come after us will follow us down the primrose path to peonage and prison. And, the more they are demanded to do that, the more they will hate the men doing the demanding.

Look behind you – guys who are around 30. Look at guys like Matt Forney, who just put up a post titled “We Come Not to Praise the Men’s Rights Movement, But to Bury It”
http://mattforney.com/2012/09/10/we-come-not-to-praise-the-mens-rights-movement-but-to-bury-it/

These guys hate our guts. Vox Day wants to see all the Boomers turned into dog food.

From the perspective of younger guys, we older guys sat around with our thumbs up our asses passing the bong, while feminists and SoCons took over their schools and their entire world, and broke all their kneecaps. Now, they face a group of men who are attacking them for the fact that they can’t dance so gracefully.

I think I remember that you said you were Gen X. Taking the generally agreed on cutoff point of 1964, I have been fighting this beastie since you were at most 6 years old.

Are you arrogant enough that you think you can teach grandpa how to suck eggs?

You are arguing emotionally, not rationally. You live in a world where a-holes like Jackass Joe Biden has funded a huge army of White Knights to invade other men’s marriages and force men to submit to the female imperative, just as his White Knight father enforced on him that his sister could beat the crap out of him and he could not fight back.

Well, since he couldn’t fight back, he is going to fuck over all other men by making sure they can’t fight back.

Like them or not, believe that they are evil or not, Gamers are fighting back in a way that older men did not.

It is a tsunami of social change. Disagreeing with it is not going to hold it back.

Head for high ground, or drown.

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TFH September 12, 2012 at 15:27

Zed 10:46 and Tholian Soren are the two article-caliber comments that summarize the whole thing in easy-to-understand terms.

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Avenger September 12, 2012 at 16:03

Like them or not, believe that they are evil or not, Gamers are fighting back in a way that older men did not

Aside from playing video games and bullshiting about the gitls they’re going to pick up because they learned a few pickup limes from a funny looking guy in a hat they are no different from the same omega guys in 1970 who played pinball and talked about the best way to pick up girls.
In fact the older guys were better at gaming females because they were in closer proximity to them and could study them better. Many of these pua types today just sit alone at home using the net and spin their fantasies. They basically just make up a lot of stuff based on some half arsed interpretation of “psychology” or some pop study they read. They have no real field experience and if they occasionally are successful it’s not due to some “game” but just the fact that they were out there socialising. It’s not so hard to get a girl.

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zed September 12, 2012 at 16:45

In fact the older guys were better at gaming females because they were in closer proximity to them and could study them better.

Oh, I guess that explains the 50% divorce rate and all these divorced men barely able to keep themselves out of prison – because they knew how to “Game” females so well. Imagine what dire straights they would be in if they hadn’t.

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greyghost September 12, 2012 at 17:06

Outstanding zed. Game is the weapon we need for men to use to survive and identify targets. I wish the guys that comment here could see the big picture. If you are a commenter here you have chosen to be and MRA leader. “game ‘ is a tool on female psychology and it is part of the red pill. Using game to get sex is great in the large skeem of things. There is no such thing as pathetic or shameful any man using game to tear up some pussy for his own pleasure. In the large big picture that is what I want and fully encourage. Those guys are doing the lords work and God bless them.
For this MRM to get off the ground we need some military minded action. The young guys are begging to know what they need to do to change this shit. Involuntary childless spinsterhood gets it done.

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greyghost September 12, 2012 at 17:12

In fact the older guys were better at gaming females because they were in closer proximity to them and could study them better.

Goddamn man. Look, instead of liking the idea of being a player. let yourself enjoy the pleasure of some ameriskank wasting away her fertile years on the cock carousel. Any bitch like that needs to be childless paying full taxes single with no dependents and not entitled directly for any mans labour.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 19:24

@ greyghost and zed -

Game is a weapon like nuclear weapons. The kind that should never be used. The kind that are just as destructive to those who are using it as to those who they are being used on. It’s as likely to destroy one of your brothers (or yourself) as it is to destroy any feminists. I don’t know if I agree that the strategy for defeating feminism is to fuck women into spinsterhood. Although I agree it is satisfying their addiction and basically ruining their lives by keeping them hooked on sex and driving them to depression and other serious problems. But that knife cuts both ways too. And innocent men are getting caught in the cross-fire. It sounds very irresponsible and mean-spirited. My concern however is not for the women. It’s for the guys who are using this weapon. It’s like any drug and will hurt the guys using it just the way it hurts the women. Like I said, two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because a bunch of stupid broads are indulging this culture doesn’t mean guys should too. I dunno. Maybe read a book or go for a walk. The whole sex as a weapon and for recreation makes my skin crawl.

@ zed -

I was born in ’67 and fighting my feminazi first grade teachers by age six. Gave em hell too. The stories I could tell you. Some of the shit they were doing in American elementary schools by the time I was in first grade were ridiculous. Even as a six year old, it was obvious to me. I didn’t give in to it then and I’m not giving in to it now. Give me liberty or give me death and all that. Seriously. I simply am not giving this stuff up until the truth is shoved up everyone’s asses and my children can’t escape the truth of what happened to them and me and that I did not abandon them. Game is kinda contaminating that message of the truth a little.

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Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 19:26

We’re men and we’re better than that.

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TFH September 12, 2012 at 19:47

Game is the weapon we need for men to use to survive and identify targets.

Of course. It is one of the Four Horsemen of Male Emancipation, as listed in The Misandry Bubble. As the decade progresses, all four will appear to have a life of their own :

1) Game
2) VR Sex
3) Globalization
4) Male economic disengagement (which is a part of MGTOW)…

Just like an orchestra has wind, string, brass, and percussion instruments, all four horsemen work in concerted fashion to adjust the lopsided nature of things.

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Bharatiyaa September 12, 2012 at 20:12

TFH, aren’t you Indian? Man, what are you worried about? You can have an arranged marriage with a young wife from India.

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Gilgamesh September 12, 2012 at 22:37

How is Globalization male emancipation? All it’s done is kill jobs and drive down wages while spreading cultural marxism all over the world.

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zed September 13, 2012 at 06:30

Darryl X
Some of the shit they were doing in American elementary schools by the time I was in first grade were ridiculous. Even as a six year old, it was obvious to me. I didn’t give in to it then and I’m not giving in to it now. Give me liberty or give me death and all that. Seriously.

Fight the good fight, Darryl. It certainly gives more meaning to a man’s life than knowing who won every super bowl and world series since the beginning – and the final scores.

Hell, I’m in my early 60s and have made it through this whole mess relatively unscathed, but I have perched myself on a nearby hilltop with a sniper rifle and done my best to pick off a stray goblin or two, and communicate to my bros what I see of the enemy’s movements.

The biggest problem with the MRM is that it has done a horrible job of identifying who the real enemy is. “Men” have had a compulsive tendency to regard and react to anyone who disagrees with them on anything as “the enemy” and have worn each other out arguing over the best way to split hairs.

Meanwhile, the true enemies of all the tribes of the MRM have waltzed in, walked over the bodies that we, ourselves, killed, and deconstructed our entire culture.

In the comment I made at Roosh’s, I observed that the multiple mutually hostile “tribes” of men – based on differing social and cultural values – are in the process of Balkanizing and engaging in tons of inter-tribal wars. All our conquerors have to do is wait until we all kill each other, and waltz in and bury the bodies.

Twenty years ago I also believed that “men” were better than that – smarter than that – and they wouldn’t fall for it. Forty plus years of being “something”, and the only name we have for it so far is MRA, has convinced me that I was wrong.

To paraphrase H. L. Mencken’s famous quote –
“No political idiocy ever failed due to the proponents underestimating the intelligence of men.”

We are now dealing with a generation of young men who went through the same BS in schools that you did – which had gotten much worse by the time they had to survive it – and many of them had to go through it without even a father in their lives to counteract the idiocy.

They are the feral boys that Dan Amneus predicted, and they are the poison pill that the femnasties and their White Knight femnablers have shoved down our culture’s throat.

But, wiping every PUA off the face of the earth would still leave Joe Biden – the worst White Knight to ever draw breath – only one heartbeat away from the presidency of the US.

Pick your targets well, and do not waste your energy on low-value targets.

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Avenger September 13, 2012 at 07:23

Darryl-What actually is your problem and what would you like to achieve?

If you left the country then you wouldn’t see your kids.

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Avenger September 13, 2012 at 07:42

1) Game
2) VR Sex
3) Globalization
4) Male economic disengagement (which is a part of MGTOW)…

You can’t be serious with this nonsense. And why would you need VR sex if you’re getting all these chicks with “game”?:)
And what does economic disengagement mean? You make no money and live like a pauper? You’re not punishing anyone but yourself by doing that. Even if you’re losing 1/2 your money through taxes it’s still better than living like a hobo.
And you can go your own way and live your life as you see fit now without making some silly movement about it. Most men just are not going to live the way you imagine. There have always been men who can’t cope with life and want to drop out. You remind me of a teenager who thinks his life is so terrible but that’s only because he’s too immature to know the really bad things and real problems he’ll have as he gets older.

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Tholian Soren September 13, 2012 at 14:22

Couple of things i’ve learned from this discussion:

1) Someone (I think Darryl) made the very good point that, unlike MRAs, many PUA are looking to sell you something. You need to consider their words and actions in that context. MRAs are not looking to sell you anything, at least not for money. They are looking to sell you ideas. Some of them are looking to sell you their unhappiness, or at least share it with you for free (“let’s none of us have ANYTHING to do with women!”…I didn’t realize you DID have anything to do with them, chappy, or they with you!)

2) Most of the bitterness and recrimination (sp?) seems to come from MRAs, towards PUAs. PUA’s rarely spend energy denouncing MRAs, and when they do i suspect it has something to do with 1) above (profit motive). In fact, the whole MRA vs PUA thing reminds me of how people from Philadelphia, Boston, and similar cities regard New York City. They trash NYC and trash it and trash it. One day, someone from Philly asked me “Do New Yorkers put down Philadelphia the way we put down New York”. I replied “You flatter yourself by the comparison; New Yorkers do not even know that Philadelphia exists”. Likewise, i think PUAs regard MRAs diatribes (“You’re not following the BIBLE!! WE’RE the better men!!) the same way they would regard a man trying to teach a dog to walk on two legs – as comically amusing, but of no greater significance.

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greyghost September 15, 2012 at 14:16

Darryl x
I don’t know if I agree that the strategy for defeating feminism is to fuck women into spinsterhood. Although I agree it is satisfying their addiction and basically ruining their lives by keeping them hooked on sex and driving them to depression and other serious problems.

That is an awesome idea and strategy Darryl X I bet if we sat down and went over this strategy we can find something in it for every type of man and all of the various outlooks and motivations these men have at different stages of their lives.

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Giovanni Dannato October 15, 2012 at 16:01

I honestly can’t see why any such conflict is necessary. Whether game, celibacy, or legal activism I see them all as attempts to address the same problems.

Even if I there’s a particular approach I might not agree with or even actively disapprove of, I can see that we’re all just trying to make it in hostile conditions.

I might have points where I disagree with gamers, MRAs, or MGTOWs but I appreciate that we all perceive the same social problems. Problems that still seem strangely invisible to most people even as this society falls apart.

Thus the periodic acrimony that flares up puzzles me.

What is there to fight over?

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Lele November 19, 2012 at 09:50

@Darryl X September 12, 2012 at 05:42

What are you talking about? Analyzing a situation before acting? For heaven’s sake, you are approaching a woman! What are the risks? Women don’t bite, trust me. If it doesn’t work, you next her and that’s it. The truth is that you have a weaker ego than a hardened PUA, but do you think he never gets shot down? I’ll bet he does way more than not, but he persists until he succeeds, and success breeds success.

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