Blogging and Comments — The Manosphere is Growing Up

by W.F. Price on July 27, 2012

Some people might be curious about the connection between comments and site traffic, and recently I’ve had an opportunity to do a little experiment. I put all comments on moderation to give myself a little more time with the family without having to worry about trolls while away from the site, and it’s been a nice little break. But at the same time, it looks as though less is going on on the site.

Actually, this isn’t true. Below is a graph of traffic starting from just after I put all comments on moderation to yesterday.

As you can see, traffic has gone up considerably. The picture is just a snapshot, so it isn’t entirely representative of average traffic. Weekends are usually lower (Saturdays lowest), and that makes it look a bit more impressive than it should. Add to that the fact that I didn’t really post anything on Friday or Saturday, resulting in lower traffic for those days, and it skews it a bit more.

However, this month a typical day is running just over 10,000 page views per day and around 3,500 uniques — pretty much like Monday and Tuesday. The dark green represents page views, and the light green uniques, so as you can see the traffic shot up considerably by the middle of this week, with over 14,000 page views and 5,000 uniques yesterday.

Those kinds of numbers put comments in perspective. Out of over 5,000 people who visited the site yesterday (and that doesn’t even include the 1,000 individuals out of 2,100 subscribers who viewed the feed), perhaps only a couple dozen commented — well under 1%.

Usually, I don’t tend to be too bothered by comments, even when they are pretty lousy. However, I’m starting to rethink that. This is because you get traffic as a blogger largely from other bloggers, tweets, etc., and when you have commenters who are dumping on other bloggers or saying ugly stuff, people tend to hold you responsible, and it does hurt your site. For example, if I have people trashing another popular manosphere blogger in comments, it will make him think twice about linking any of my posts, and that is not a good thing.

Although I could care less when feminists and the like criticize comments (they obviously aren’t my target audience), when colleagues and people on their sites start taking offense, it’s a problem.

Finally, more bloggers in the manosphere have been cracking down on comments as it matures and grows. There are a lot more sites than a few years ago, and they get a lot more traffic. So there’s a trickle down effect: when most sites exercise comment control, the people who get “controlled” tend to end up on the sites that don’t. The consequences of this should be pretty clear. It suggests that the old “anything goes” model, which was necessary and quite helpful in the beginning, isn’t feasible any longer.

So, as zed has suggested, it’s probably time for The Spearhead to put on the “big boy pants” and start policing comments more thoroughly. I think this will have a positive effect, because there are a lot of quality commenters I appreciate, including some who have left due to the lower comment quality. Perhaps some of these valued commenters will return and comment from time to time — I certainly hope so.

Although it’s a fairly substantial change, I’m now going to set the bar considerably higher, including for graphic language (long a pet peeve of mine), violent fantasies, personal attacks, attacks on other manosphere bloggers and unhelpful griping. I assume most people can handle this fine, and it will be a much more comfortable environment for the majority.

Looks like the manosphere is growing up and coming into its own. Not a bad thing.

{ 143 comments }

American July 27, 2012 at 13:09

Youre new moderation standards seem reasonable.

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Opus July 27, 2012 at 13:46

I have a question as to something that has long intrigued me, and not just in relation to your site but in relation to viewing sites like You Tube as well. If I look at a page, say this page, more than once (whether on the same day or not) does that show up as one view or two or more views?

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W.F. Price July 27, 2012 at 13:53

I have a question as to something that has long intrigued me, and not just in relation to your site but in relation to viewing sites like You Tube as well. If I look at a page, say this page, more than once (whether on the same day or not) does that show up as one view or two or more views?

-Opus

That’s why page views and uniques are two different measures of traffic. If you come to the site on any given day, it is one unique no matter how many pages you view. However, each time you view a different page it adds another page view. So, say I get 4,000 uniques and 12,000 page views on some day. This means that 4,000 people visited and viewed an average of three pages each.

Charles Martel July 27, 2012 at 14:25

when you have commenters who are dumping on other bloggers or saying ugly stuff, people tend to hold you responsible, and it does hurt your site.

Keep running the current experiment, Bill. All the childish stuff in the comments – vendettas, shaming, excessive foul language, etc – does turn readers off.

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Days of Broken Arrows July 27, 2012 at 14:31

Although it’s a fairly substantial change, I’m now going to set the bar considerably higher, including for graphic language (long a pet peeve of mine), violent fantasies, personal attacks, attacks on other manosphere bloggers and unhelpful griping. I assume most people can handle this fine, and it will be a much more comfortable environment for the majority.

And you’re going to lose all your followers — I’m going to be the first to go.

What separates the manosphere, specifically this site, from the feminist blogs and mainstream publications is the lack of moderation. By putting into effect all those standards, you’re going to turn this into an echo chamber where people simply validate each other — or feel like they need to because they’re afraid of violating some totally random “standard” (think Feministing).

As annoying as the feuds are, they’re instructive. As crazed as Great Books for Men gets, he makes points. And if anyone can’t handle profanity I urge them to go over to the moderated feminist blogs where everything is kept safe, tidy, and inoffensive.

I think you’re doing exactly what American business owners do once they get a taste of success. You’re forgetting what brought you there to begin with and you’re subsequently removing the very things that made your product attractive to begin with, namely the freedom of speech element. It’s the uncomfortable speech that needs defending in a free society. If people have a problem with offensive comment, they can choose to ignore them, not vote on them, and let the “market” decide that these comments have no place, as it were.

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Jack Donovan July 27, 2012 at 14:34

Good. On a related note, I read this last night. It was helpful.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/05/18/tim-ferriss-scam-practical-tactics-for-dealing-with-haters/

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Uncle Elmer July 27, 2012 at 14:36

All right then, no more disparaging remarks from Elmer about “Heartiste” biting his nails over the literary content of girl’s text messages.

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Beltain July 27, 2012 at 14:45

Moderation can be alright but it can also piss readers off as well. Long periods before comments are approved or bias in how the rules are enforced has been a death spiral for other sites as well.

Personally though I like it best when comments are open and immediate but rules are enforced quickly to deal with the childishness. Of course that takes massive amounts of time so if another option is chosen it is understandable.

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tom47 July 27, 2012 at 15:13

This is my favorite site by far and the best MRA site I know of, but I’ve always been reluctant to point people to it because of some of the comments. Particularly if I’m trying to convert people or turn them on to something new I worry about what they’ll see. It’s a shame because the articles and most of the comments are so great and even enlightening.

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Charles Martel July 27, 2012 at 15:24

Days of Broken Arrows
I think you’re doing exactly what American business owners do once they get a taste of success. You’re forgetting what brought you there to begin with and you’re subsequently removing the very things that made your product attractive to begin with, namely the freedom of speech element.

So The Spearhead’s readers are responsible for its success?

It’s my opinion that The Spearhead is successful because it’s written by an intelligent, engaging and tenacious writer. That’s why I’m here, as well as to read the generally excellent comments.

If I were Bill I’d be asking two questions:
(1) Do I prefer The Spearhead to present as a serious web site or as a free fire zone?
(2) Will the site do better if I make a conscious decision to cater to one market segment or the other?

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Rebel July 27, 2012 at 15:31

I’m all in favor of free speech.

I’m also in favor of mutual respect: the recent slug fest was not called for.

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walking in hell2 July 27, 2012 at 15:32

@Mr. Price

I just noticed that there are no up and down arrows for ranking comments. Will that be a permanent change as well?

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W.F. Price July 27, 2012 at 15:35

@Mr. Price

I just noticed that there are no up and down arrows for ranking comments. Will that be a permanent change as well?

-WIH2

Probably. If I’m going to deal with moderation myself, relying on ratings isn’t going to work. But I haven’t decided that one yet. We’ll see how it works.

Uncle Elmer July 27, 2012 at 15:46

A “Reply” button. The possibilities for thread-hijacking are manifold.

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Uncle Elmer July 27, 2012 at 15:48

I hear you. I need instant gratification.

At times I am writhing on the floor in anticipation of upvotes.

Hey, where are the upvotes?!!!

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Beltain July 27, 2012 at 16:15

LOL Elmer. See I don’t like the vote thing. At first I did. However I began refreshing and noticing that the same people were commenting right after a blanket downvote to those who had ever disagreed with them in the past. It got to be almost a free for all down vote fest in some instances no matter what the commenter had written. Then I noticed that even certain annoying posters were coming around and making some reasonable comments only to get auto-down voted.

Personally I kinda feel the comments are still limited to far too few people overall who go ahead and take the leap to make voting a favorable thing. Last time I mentioned these concerns I got downvoted fast too so I am biased :)

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Rob July 27, 2012 at 16:26

The reply button is a major drawback to a website’s comments, in my opinion. Generally, sites that have the feature become so bloody confusing that I don’t follow, nor engage in conversations.

First off, while I rather enjoy things going off on tangents – it’s a great way to learn and explore new territory (push the fringe etc), the way reply buttons take things off on tangents is just silly. The third comment might end up with 25 replies – all at the top of the thread.

Also, an enormous amount of replies will never get viewed. The counter on the bottom of the article will show 15 replies, then a half hour later 19 replies… but the very last comment is still the same – so, really? A person must go through the entire thread trying to figure out where the new four comments are? Wait until a thread gets into the hundred plus comments, is anyone really going to keep going through all 100 comments to find the new replies that are “somewhere in there?” I never bother.

Lots of these features that are offered for sites are interesting novelties, but are not actually conducive to creating a good comment thread. Sometimes, the old reliable, simple ways of doing things are still superior. If all the new comments are properly ordered – at the end of the thread, and the author of it replies to it by saying “joe-blow @ 1:46pm said:” it makes for a more fluid “conversation” and also, will attract more people into a conversation even if it goes a bit off tangent.

Many commenters, like myself, start at the bottom of a comment thread and work backwards. If there are 100 comments and you “reply” to comment #6, and then your conversation partner also replies to your comment wayyyyy up there, and so on… well, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people are never going to read your comment.

These features may look fancy and nice, but simple is often better.

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Rebel July 27, 2012 at 16:39

It’s nice to hear that the manosphere is growing but where are the results?

Are we having an impact? If yes, what is it?

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Charles Martel July 27, 2012 at 16:44

I agree. “REPLY” is a sure-fire way to instantly spam up every comments thread.

For a bunch of intelligent guys there’s a major reluctance to learning some basic HTML. Blockquote, italic and bold are dead easy. If a born-again technophobe like me can do it……

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Attila July 27, 2012 at 16:46

Those who are meant to find it —will.

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Anonymous Reader July 27, 2012 at 16:48

What makes you say that?

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Charles Martel July 27, 2012 at 16:49

You can not see them. But they are there.

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W.F. Price July 27, 2012 at 16:56

OK, Charles, you and Rob might be right. I’ll check it tomorrow and see how it looks. :)

Tom936 July 27, 2012 at 17:34

Three comments

I miss the upvote/downvote already. I found it useful for finding good comments, for indicating when someone is just being annoying (feuding, flogging a pet phrase to death, etc) and for declawing the Feminist trolls who used to hijack threads all the time.

Threaded replies doesn’t seem to work as well. The latest comments are scattered all over. Searching for what a comment was replying to wasn’t that hard before, and many of us would leave “Joe MRA 12:30pm” in the reply to make it easy.

The higher bar sounds good. I won’t miss the graphic language in the slightest, nor the personal attacks. And the violent fantasies just tainted the rest of us. Violent fantasy is an understandable human response to oppression. But MRAs should be admired for our self-control under these appalling circumstances, not tainted by association with a few ill-considered violent fantasies.

Without putting words in your mouth, I don’t think you are saying that other manosphere bloggers are always off limits in every circumstance, or that any sort of griping is. I trust your judgement, which has been proven many times.

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Troll King July 27, 2012 at 17:43

I agree with the downvotes/upvotes. For one it just becomes a hassle to click twice on a comment just to see it once it has been downvoted.

I like it at first too but I think it has turned the spearhead into a bit of a echo chamber. Say something that just a dozen people will not agree with and all of a sudden your comment is invisible.

Not to mention that it gives mantits(is that too offensive?)..err, boobz, ammo to strawman and make claims about us as a whole.

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Ethical July 27, 2012 at 17:52

The additional moderation is probably inevitable when a site gets large. Congrats on doing such fine work to get here.

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Christina July 27, 2012 at 18:06

An impact – it might not be big, but let me be an example.

I’ve been a reader of one of The Spearhead’s co-op writers for over 4 years now. I am a girl. I started reading before I got married and before I had kids.

Though I was always bent away from feminism, these blogs have made me more aware of where to tread more lightly and be more careful of respect. I’m more likely to apologize to my husband when I’m a B****, more aware of what I wish to teach my son when looking for a wife, and more understanding of what I want my daughter to be.

Though there are a ton of things I absolutely HATE about the manosphere (the inclination to generally hate all women), I think I’ve learned something here.

I’m only one person, but I’m not such an idiot to think I’m so special to be the only one.

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Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) July 27, 2012 at 18:06

this brings to mind a recent sermon regarding profanity in the church, and who exactly is sinning.

allow me to recount the parable

so i was in a shurch the other daay
i was in church the other day
and the minister had very nice hair
and a big smile
and i noticed dat all the young ladies
were shifting around in their seat
as they had sore buttholez
so i leaned towards my friend
and i whispered,
“a lot of da womenz in my genenrtion have sore buttes fom being buttcocked so much.”
and the minisiter
he heard me oh no!
he stopped his sermon
and walkd towards me his face turning red
and he said
“ABOMINATINETION!!!! WE HAVE A SINNER IN THIS CHURCH!”
he pointed at me, and all da womenz his harmez said “yah yah yah! a sinnerz!””
“THROUGH HIM, SATAN HAS DISGRACED MY CHURCH WITHTHE WORD BUTT-COCKED!!!!”
and he pointed at me as i cowered
in fear of hs thurndering lord’s voice
and nice hair and pleasnant TV preacher’s smile
owned by da bernaneknetworkz
and the womenz all said “SINNER SINNER SINNER!”
but yet i stood and said,
“who is the sinner–those who buttcock, or those who sayeth and observeth that ye all be buttocking, which is an abomination in the yees of my fatheer?”
“ABONOMINTAION! SINNER! SUCH LANUGUAGE SHALL NOT BE TOLRERATED IN THE HAOUSE OF THE LORD!!!” the minsister smited me and all the womenz followed suit with their handbabags lzolzlo
and so they killed the messenger of our Father’s will
as they had done to Jesusth
and so many poets and prophets
before
and
since

and while the church building let stood
its soul was buttcocked
into
obliviolnonomzlzozlzoozzozlzolzzozzlozzz

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The First Joe July 27, 2012 at 18:12

Good stuff Welmer.

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W.F. Price July 27, 2012 at 18:12

GBFM, you are a miserable comment sinner. We all pray that the internet lord will deliver you from hellfire and eternal tarnation.

Charles Martel July 27, 2012 at 18:14

Totally. Second!

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Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) July 27, 2012 at 18:22

Dear Jack,

You write, “Jack Donovan July 27, 2012 at 14:34

Good. On a related note, I read this last night. It was helpful.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/05/18/tim-ferriss-scam-practical-tactics-for-dealing-with-haters/

Tim Ferriss endorses Tucker Max who secretly films sodomy without the girl’s consent. Furthermore, Tim’s books have graphic drawings of a man fingering a woman out of wedlock to give her an orgasm, while following the advice of a porn star. Such sexual activity is also considered sodomy.

If this blog is going to crack down on “foul language,” I certainly hope it prohibits links to those who promote and practice sodomy.

Or will we operate in the typical Bill Bennet fashion, and go “tut tut tut you naughty naughty boys with the foul language,” while endorsing and linking to far grosser acts and egregious sins?

As Men (as defined in the Great Books for Men) have ever valued Deeds over mere Words, so it is that as a “Men’s” blog, the Spearhead ought reprimand foul actions and deeds long before salty language, which often, is just the most appropriate words to describe reality.

So again we return to the post above. Is the Spearhead going to laud those who promote buttcocking and sodomy while persecuting those who say, “boy, all the sodomy and buttcocking is really corrupting the current generation and destroying marriage?”

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Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) July 27, 2012 at 18:27

lozozozozoz

thanks W.F. Prince :) keep up the good work here!

the above “sermon” was very well received at Dalrock & Heartiste’s blogs.

i love all of ye! :)

Dalrock is a good, observant Christian marked by a keen perception and wit. Heartiste has a Homeric, noble soul, also marked by a keen perception and wit. Long story short, they are classical Men.

:)

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Rebel July 27, 2012 at 18:36

Precisely what I thought: no impact whatsoever.
Words are cheap indeed.

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W.F. Price July 27, 2012 at 18:51

@GBFM

You know, I can’t be held responsible for checking every link. For God’s sake, how could I find time to play catch with my son or read a book with my daughter?

As for the salty language, think about it this way:

If you’ve got a fishing boat with a crew of six men it’s nothing. But if you’re a captain on an aircraft carrier with a complement of thousands you have to display some dignity and propriety.

Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) July 27, 2012 at 18:56

Yes, but when that aircraft carrier is under attack, where is the dignity in prosecuting the sailors using salty language while saluting those aiding and abetting the enemy?

Take it from a Man Who Served–no commander prosecutes his troops for foul language in battle.

:)

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DeCode July 27, 2012 at 19:15

Agreed.

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Charles Martel July 27, 2012 at 19:34

The foul language thing is pretty much a straw man. I can only think of a handful of commenters who have regularly done this.

The larger point is how much editorial control does Bill exercise and what is the overall effect on the readership? The Spearhead will be taken more seriously – if that’s what Bill wants – with tighter editorial control on the comments, imo.

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Rocco July 27, 2012 at 19:49

I believe I made the big boy pants comment, not that it matters (it does), my commitment is to the larger MRM.

The Spear Head is the brains of this movement.

It’s good to see an improvement in the comments since moderation and encouraging to see that so many are reading the issues that affect men.

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W.F. Price July 27, 2012 at 20:02

@Rocco

Well, thanks for that. As another dad, I know exactly what it means.

JFinn July 27, 2012 at 21:13

Price, you’re very important for the movement. I’m glad you’ve taken this seriously.

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JFinn July 27, 2012 at 22:27

Just copy-paste-forward them texts you want them to read without the source link.

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Hermitcrab July 27, 2012 at 23:22

The articles are what’s made the Spearhead worth re-visiting week after week. The comments are the only aspect of the site where quality runs like wet paint and information worth hearing gets tuned out by overemotional grandstanding.

How much of the regular audience really comes here for the comments, and will leave in an angry huff if they start getting the stupid whittled out of them?

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ActaNonVerba July 28, 2012 at 00:13

What’s a “unique visit” regarding the website?

Also, I don’t claim to be anything special and know I don’t get a vote, but, my symbolic vote is keep moderation to a minimum (though I understand the need for some moderation).

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walking in hell2 July 28, 2012 at 01:53

That is too bad. In my opinion, the up down votes give an incentive to write. For me it is important to see a group of guys whose intelligence that I respect (spearhead readers) giving me up votes.

Upvote/downvote are essential for self-monitoring, give a “living” feeling to a website, and help to build a feeling of community.

I believe the up/down votes generally raise the quality of the writing on the website, because they provide a feedback mechanism.

Not to mention that those of us recruiting others to the MRM, can use certain comments with lots of up votes as examples to would-be recruits.

We can also show comments with lots of up votes to feminists, so they can get a feeling for how public opinion is moving against them: this is an indispensable tool for this purpose because all women go with the crowd.

I am pretty new in the Manosphere. I learned lots here on the spearhead and made some friends, because of the comments section.

Does anyone else know of any sites out there with a comments section with the up down votes? Of course, there needs to be a guy like Price at the helm.

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Gamerp4 July 28, 2012 at 02:25

Well being a firm reader of The-Spearhead before i thought i should declare my existence (You see i was a lurker) and after seeing The-Spearhead move into new territories and in doing so spearing all those feminists along the way (Dont forget how they piercing shriek over MRM Blogs like a siren) I endorse this move because I might be sometimes insane or drunk (Ya i know i drink alot) i lose my momentum and discipline and with that i find myself sometimes going off the hook and writing something inappropriate which needs not to be spoken but it goes off like a unmanned aircraft (Read: Drones).

So yah sometimes things go far from being a debate to a swearing fight, I might not engage myself with feminists but if some serious feminazi comes by and wants to engage in a debate she shouldn’t be serve rotten dog meat but a delightful Cow meat with extra fact and extra stats and on top of that a little bit truth butter with reality sauce.

Between I would say Mr. Price that this move will surely strike a chord in feminist and Manboobz blog and they might not throw some false tantrum when one commentator swears at them, and my dear brothers let the feminists enjoy let them come here and have a rational debate with a few rational guys here maybe then they will understand their flaws if not FUDGE THEM.

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AfOR July 28, 2012 at 03:17

Bill, I think you have to ask yourself a more fundamental question.

What IS the spearhead?

Is it an online electronic magazine, in which case wordpress is a perfectly reasonable solution…

or,

Is it an online electronic community, in which case something like slashcode would be a perfectly reasonable solution.

alternatively wordpress makes a kludgy answer to a community requirement, and slashcode makes a kludgy answer to a magazine requirement.

You also have to answer a separate question.

Is the spearhead Bill’s personal blog, or is it Bill’s business blog?

In your home you are quite entitled to only ever play barry manilow, refuse admittance to all who smoke, and impose a 50 buck fine on anyone who cusses stronger than “darn tarnation”

In your business that is a quick way to turn a pub into a rather empty front room

Sadly you are at that stage now where “If I was going there, I wouldn’t start from her” vis a vis the sheer momentum of the codebase you are using, should you wish to change tack, however putting it off will only make it harder.

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crella July 28, 2012 at 06:50

I hope that you can move on to apologizing every time you’re a b*tch to your husband, and then eventually to never being a b*tch.

I disagree with your assertion that a general hatred of women is at the core of the manosphere. These are men reacting to real grievances, unlike most feminist rantings against imaginary boogeyman (‘rape culture’ ‘The Patriarchy’) . Do you also hate a ton of things about feminist blogs, like the searing hatred of men those sites display, the coarse vulgar language, the promotion to all women of behavior only a streetwalker would call normal?

Do you also hate the way men are denigrated in our culture, how they are marginalized in the family court system?

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Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) July 28, 2012 at 06:58

Dear Charles,

You write, “The foul language thing is pretty much a straw man.”

Above the foul language is listed first while the blogger is enumerating those things which are to be banned and censored:

“Although it’s a fairly substantial change, I’m now going to set the bar considerably higher, including for graphic language (long a pet peeve of mine).”

Charles, how does placing “foul language” first–front and center–make it a straw man?

Now I don’t enjoy foul language any more than anyone else does, but one thing I’m beginning to wonder is

a) is the Spearhead pro-sodomy?
b) is the Spearhead anti-sodomy?
c) is the Spearhead indifferent towards sodomy?

Is the Spearhead seeking to exalt men’s rights in a classical, Judeo-Christian context, or is it seeking to exalt men’s rights in a corporate-state context where men are both 1) banned from using foul language and 2) banned from criticizing sodomy?

Because when you think about it, the latter perfectly describes the modern mangina workplace, where a man could easily be fired for saying “f***,” but where it is perfectly fine for him to “f***” his coworker’s butthole–male or female.

Is that what the Spearhead is building?

Will we be punishing boys for being boys and using salty language (which isn’t all that salty anymore, given how common it is) while having them read Heather Has Two Mommmies and celebrating Jimmy Has Two Daddies, not only giving sodomy a free pass, but celebrating it?

What does the “Men’s Rights” movement stand for? More pageviews via a mangina corporate workplace?

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crella July 28, 2012 at 07:05

‘And you’re going to lose all your followers — I’m going to be the first to go.’

I could sing you a ditty my uncle liked, ‘Don’t let the screen door hit you on the way out (hit the table with something here) Martha…..’ but as it’s nothing without the melody…

If the site is important enough to you, you’ll stay despite changes. When there are changes on a site failure is always predicted…I am on another board that went out of control to the point that a FB site was set up with a group of trolls who were seemingly core members of the community, reproducing comments to ridicule, with membership in the FB group dependent on being willing to join in trashing the original site. The site owner mass-banned all them (more than 10). The FB group exploded with threats, and predictions that the site was doomed and would disappear without the couple dozen who were banned. Still there, more new members, it’s peaceful and enjoyable. These predictions of doom rarely come to pass.

You can leave, or you an pinch your nose a bit about changes you don’t like and help the Spearhead to find it’s way.

‘Safe, tidy and inoffensive’ feminist blogs? Really? Any I’ve seen use the F word like you and I use conjunctions, advocate violence and death to men, and are full of rage and/or snark…

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handdisk July 28, 2012 at 07:18

As a daily reader and two-time donator (total $100) I think this latest change is a bad bad idea. The comments are just as important as the articles, maybe even more important. To say that people are being scared away by rough langauge, arguments, vendettas etc is IMHO the opposite of the truth. The Spearhead should continue to be an oasis in the desert of political correctness and ‘harmony’ which is what society is now. Harmony is feminine, not masculine. I say let the up-votes and down-votes do the moderating, it seemed to be working fine and making stupid comments disappear. The whole ‘wisdom of crowds’ idea ya know. Are people really bothered by arguments that don’t even show up in the comments? Only control freaks could be bothered by that.

I have seen several other websites that increased the moderation and what happens is as discussions become more ‘harmonious’ the best contributors very very slowly stop posting and disappear, leaving only people with nothing to say. But hey at least everyone is happy. At least bring back the upvote/downvote buttons or I will not be donating again.

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Uncle Elmer July 28, 2012 at 07:32

On the lady blogs they say “fucking” a lot.

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Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 07:58

Although I agree that the “manosphere” is a place for diversity of thought and discussion, I think Price will be able to moderate posts without being excessively PC. I actually appreciate some of the ribald humor and extreme diversity in perspectives and opinion and presentation. That is what distinguishes the MRM from the feminist world. As obnoxious as some posters may appear (myself included – note to self: never post when I’m really pissed off), I still read their posts. As abstract and poetic and esoteric as others appear, I still read their posts. And it stimulates a part of my brain that usually I can’t stimulate myself and gets me thinking about our dilemma in a different way. I think there is a lot of good analysis here too and that can only be seen against the background of other kinds of expression about our dilemma. These are qualities of the MRM that is absent from feminism. And it is what has sustained civilization as long as it has despite feminism.

I am one of those people who has been booted from other sites. Although I could easily have created a new persona and continued to post, I chose not to because I do not stay someplace where I’m not wanted (although in one instance when I was booted, I understand that others left in protest because they understood the injustice involved and that the site was hypocritical, claiming to support the views of men like me and then booting me when I expressed them in a polite and courteous way – the fact is however our message as men and us as messengers are not popular and that should not be a reason to exclude anyone).

That being written, in both instances I was the victim of excessive moderation and scrutiny by people who I do not think knew what they were doing and had their self interests above the cause (and I don’t condemn them for self interest – you can’t help others if you can’t help yourself so I was more than happy to comply with the not so subtle hints to cease and desist).

There was also a considerable amount of manipulation and subterfuge involved and I do not think the moderators or other participants understood what was going on. Had I been consulted by e-mail outside the site, I could have explained myself and the circumstances. I have never held any hostility toward anyone on any of these sites (although I have taken to task one or two for personal attacks and lack of decorum). I think when people write on these sites, they do not understand that it’s hard not to come across as an asshole because sometimes when we write, we are not so good at expressing ourselves as politely as we think we are and then there are the readers (myself included) who given our circumstances tend to be a bit defensive and have some raw wounds and tend to misinterpret posts in ways worse than they were intended (that’s why I use LOL a lot).

There really are a lot of nasty people out there and not just women (lots of white knights and manginas – and that’s our default so even the most impressive MRA can slip back into white knightery). And I am not a deceiptful and manipulative person and my experience on those other sites from which I was booted reminded me of my experience in family court. I was unable to defend myself because I either could not or would not lower myself to anyone else’s level. And the perception of me because I am a man is low to start with.

One instance concerned a site and participants for whom I had and still have considerable respect and visit frequently without posting. I would like to have contributed an article or two but I do not think it would be welcome at this point.

Another instance I did an experiment of my own and uncovered a site which claimed to support mens rights but was basically just a sham for a bunch of radical feminists promoting male slavery. Half the posters were women and they were not against jailing men because of concerns over their health or well-being or freedom, but because if they were jailed they can’t pay their child support. They weren’t against child support and did not support shared parenting but were against jailing men because it’s too expensive for the public and not practical for the recipients of the child support. What a bunch of disturbed people. And they actually identified themselves as feminists. Feminists against jailing men for child support. So they can be slaves instead. I need help like that like I need a brain tumor to distract me from a broken toe. They kept accusing me of bashing women because I presented facts and their objective analyses which made women look bad. Really bad. That’s not bashing women. It’s bashing criminal behavior. And if you’re a woman, too bad.

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Anonymous Reader July 28, 2012 at 08:20

Summary: Spearhead needs upvote/downvote, and threading comments can make it very time consuming to read the comments after a certain point. Please reconsider both actions, but especially upvote/downvote.

Comment:
If threading is to be enabled, it needs to be upvote/downvote, and/or collapsable. I do not mind the current format, where upvote/downvote enables me to scan a comment thread to find interesting comments. I would not mind a threaded comment stream where I can collapse threads that are not interesting to me.

Be aware that threading makes it more difficult to keep track of any given commenter, unlike the usual FIFO thread (previous Spearhead comment stream). If I know that all new comments are placed at the tail of comments, I can reload comments, scroll down, and find them. But if new comments can be inserted into multiple threads, I have to scroll through the entire comment stream every reload, in order to see any new comments. This becomes too time consuming after a while and I frankly quit reading some sites comments because of it.

Upvote/downvote is very effective at dealing with those who are here only to troll for flames, to disrupt discussion, to pick pointless fights, i.e. feminists. It was immensely useful last year to deal with the likes of Skadi, for example. Under the new setup, expect entire threads to be threadjacked by trolls, unless you are willing to live on the screen in permanent Moderator mode.

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crella July 28, 2012 at 08:31

I don’t think Bill is talking about severe moderation (if I’m mistaken, feel free to correct me, Bill), and I don’t think it’s a matter of language. Posters fighting amongst themselves, far off-topic, is a sure-fire way to make people disinclined to follow a comments thread (‘cripes, not this again’, *click*), it contributes nothing, and effectively shuts down discussion on every thread it occurs on.

People advocating white nationalism also have nothing to do with the message of this site….people advocating violence do not speak for the site either. Letting them continue is detrimental. Some moderation is usually necessary, because there are always people on the net who will take miles and miles if you give them an inch, and I think Bill has the common sense to strike the balance best for the site.

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walking in hell2 July 28, 2012 at 08:36

@Tom936
“I miss the upvote/downvote already. ”
“The higher bar sounds good. I won’t miss the graphic language in the slightest, nor the personal attacks.”

I also miss the up/downvote.

For those of us who want to comment as honestly as possible and feel like part of a community, the up/downvote is a necessity. Without the up/downvote, I don’t see the point in commenting.

Isn’t it possible to have the up/downvote and still moderate? Wouldn’t the up/down vote help in moderating?

Am I confused?

I hope the up/down vote comes back.

I searched for a something like the spearhead on the internet today, but did not find one. The regular commenters on the spearhead (including Mr. Price) are very unique in their opinions, special insights, and writing talent. From what I can see, the spearhead leads the men’s rights movement.

It would be a shame to see some of the regular commenters disappear.

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Keyster July 28, 2012 at 08:53

Though there are a ton of things I absolutely HATE about the manosphere (the inclination to generally hate all women), I think I’ve learned something here.

And this is EXACTLY why you’ll see guys “generally hating all women”…because you made a comment so hypocritical you didn’t even notice it. Frustration with this kind of cognative dissonance is what’s led to hate of women.

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Keyster July 28, 2012 at 08:56

That wins them instant feminist street cred.
Slamming shots of Tequila does this as well.
Bawdy, uncouth, immodest behavior is not just for the boyz.

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Charles Martel July 28, 2012 at 09:21

handdisk
I have seen several other websites that increased the moderation and what happens is as discussions become more ‘harmonious’ the best contributors very very slowly stop posting and disappear, leaving only people with nothing to say.

I’d say the opposite is true. For example, zed has been around a lot since Bill’s recent change in moderating policy. The commenters that have something important to say and the experience to back it up aren’t interested in mud wrestling with idiots.

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greyghost July 28, 2012 at 09:59

Handdisk is right I like the free wheeling comments and the up and down votes are a kind of self policing. Also the free mens speak is also intimidating to the feminist who come here to moniter mens speech and thought.
When the sight first started it was hard and raw with fresh divorce anger and emotion. It was also the first place that i have ever seen where men openly refused to placate women at all. It wasn’t the usual fuck you bitch stuff it was fuck you bitch with a logical explaination and shoot down of the usual feminist meme. The NAWALT is one that comes along that has been removed from mens blogs. That way of commenting is atrting to show up in the comments all over the place. Uncle Elmer jacking with Forbes is one place.
I think there are three main areas of the MRM. A military enlightenment group, A surviving sexual desire group, and a cultural foundation group. Like it or I think the spearhead is the center of the universe here. It is a big responsibility we all have as regular comments to police ourselves and give ideas. As Welmer said we are 1% of his page views. The other is heartiste the PUA community I see as a valuable part of the MRM what better way than the game to get a young past his bluepill brain washing and man up guilt and shaming. At the same time the man will learn how not to pedistalize women with out guilt. And then we have guys like Dalrock a cultural leader type that blogs on the day to day reality of living. His blog and writing is based on the bible, the spearhead and game and he is good. A large part of his knowledge and skill has come from the comments of isolated and thoughtful men that have commented. All of us have raised our knowledge and skill in these areas. We all have a strong sense of what is going on and the none PC truth articulated by various men allows us to develope ideas and techniques to survive and to beat down the beast.
I’m not the most elegant writer but I do enjoy adding to the conversation and always try to make sure I am truthful and honest. I truely believe the key to the success of the Spearhead is it’s truthful and honest approach. It is hard and exhausing on the host, but that is the work of men

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JFinn July 28, 2012 at 10:26

The up/down votes probably do motivate commenters to be interesting.

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handdisk July 28, 2012 at 10:42

Honestly, I was not aware that Bill had already started implementing harder moderation (how could I be, censorship is invisible!). Zed’s comments are always valuable and its great that he is posting, but how do you know that that is due to Bill moderating harder?

IMHO most commenters are big boys who do not need protection from idiots, and if two well known commenters should get into a verbal fight why not let the upvotes/downvotes decide who the winner is? I believe thats how the ancient Greeks used to decide things and it would be a whole lot more masculine than having a big-nanny moderator.

The upvote/downvote system was working great and I think its a pity that Bill has chosen to take power away from the readers and give it to himself. It seems to happen every time a site becomes established. I imagine the next step will be for him to sell the site, but remain a paid editor/censor.

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Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 10:56

The problem with judging is interpretation. Some might interpret the term “revolution” as a call for violence when really it may be a call for nonviolent and affirmative defense against those who have been oppressing us through violence first and without provocation (but it may include violence too). In some respects we don’t want to become a representation of the lowest common denominator but we also don’t want to be constrained by some who believe they are the highest (but aren’t). I agree that Price has the common sense to strike a balance. I am concerned that it could be burdensome.

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Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 11:03

A general hatred of women is not at the manosphere. A general hatred of their criminal behavior and those who condone it is. Women are great.

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Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 11:05

“I’m only one person, but I’m not such an idiot to think I’m so special to be the only one

Thanks, Christina.

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handdisk July 28, 2012 at 11:14

Well I disagree with everything you write and here’s why:

The ‘cripes not this again’ problem was being managed by the upvotes/downvotes. If people insist on clicking on a comment that has already been downvoted and hidden then they should expect something less than great and not complain about it.

White nationalists etc do not speak for this site but does that mean they should be censored? If Bill feels he has to take responsibility for the comments then the Spearhead is on the fasttrack to PC irrelavancy. He should just print a disclaimer at the top of the comments and be free. Nobody but an idiot confuses the views of the commenters with the views of the site so Bill is being overly sensitive. The Spearhead criticizes society, it should try not be part of the problem of overly sensitive PC.

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zed July 28, 2012 at 11:47

Actually, Charles, it was the discussion on moderation itself which kind of sucked me back out of lurker mode. I have been dealing with health issues for the past year and a major project at work for the past few months, and frankly I am sick to death of the entire Men’s Rights Non-movement.

I raised the exact same set of questions that AfOR did above – is this a men’s rights “community”, or it is Bill’s On-line Magazine. Frankly, I think that is Bill’s call to make, because he is the guy who has shoveled th gravel to keep the Spearhead going. All the “helpful suggestions” he was getting about how enhance the control of comments hit my hottest hot button – which I use the phrase “all the guys bitching about the free beer not being cold enough” to describe. I’ve seen it a thousand times – Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest – people who haven’t ever done jack-shit, and who never will do jack-shit, coming up with all sorts of ideas for some other guy to make happen, and all sorts of criticisms about everything he has done.

That, more than anything else, is what has burned me out on men.

Since Bill has not monetized the site, any and all preferences of people who do not support the site financially, and help Bill pay the bills, don’t count. The problem with busking is that you get more loose change when you play something people want to hear. The other problem with it is that if you put too much stock in requests from people who never contribute anything, then the tips dry up because you are not playing what the paying customers want to hear.

It sort of reminds me a bit about what ABBA said about Led Zeppelin (actually quoting Jimmy Page) – that Led Zeppelin had become a cover band now, because nobody wants to hear anything new, they just want them to cover their old hits.

Sticking to the safe road is what has gotten men into the mess we are in. Personally, I am more of a “take no prisoners and shoot the wounded” kind of guy. At one point I started referring to myself as the “Colonel Kurtz of the Gender War.” I have watched men unreasonably and irrationally cling to the “reasonable and rational approach” despite the fact that it never has worked and never will work.

Roissy has made more of a splash in the past 3 years than the entire MRM made in the previous 30. Men should take a clue from that.

My personal opinion is that there are only 5 practices/subjects which absolutely drive me nuts and will cause me to start ignoring a site when they become too large a percentage of what I see there – flame wars, openly advocating violence (guaranteed to get the site shut down, and puts the site owner at risk), the “Ill-loom-in-ah-tee”, white nationalism, and bible-thumping. Dalrock is the first Christian man I have ever run into who seems to realize how corrupt the church has become and done something more about it than wring his hands. Frankly, I consider his site to be far more at the vanguard of hitting the enemy strongholds than the Spearhead is. I don’t, however, care much for his regular customers.

All of which highlights the dilemma that Bill is facing. If he tempers how hard-hitting the site is, because he doesn’t want to offend too many people, then the site becomes the male version of “The Thinking Housewife” where we only see comments that support what he thinks. Anything said about men’s rights is going to offend someone.

From the standpoint of the MRM, itself, I personally don’t care whether, or how badly, we offend that brainless blob of protoplasm – manboobz. He is going to scurry around like a dung beetle digging up any feces which stimulates his appetite, and there are far bigger fish who really are causing men some real damage – the current administration of the US being a prime example.

Think about what Game teaches us about men, and think about what implications it may have for the MRM – nice guys finish last, and jerks and assholes take the girl home with them.

But, I am not shoveling the gravel to keep the Spearhead going. Bill is, so it is his call.

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handdisk July 28, 2012 at 11:52

I’d give you a big upvote for that comment , but the buttons have gone, guess you’ll have to look at the replies to see what people think. Strange that you got 2 negative replies and only 1 positive, usually when I vote up or down I agree with the majority. It would seem that the dynamics for positive/negative feedback are different without the voting buttons. Maybe there is such a thing as ‘the silent majority’.

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W.F. Price July 28, 2012 at 12:17

@zed

If I am taking a gamble, it’s only on the idea that most people read for the posts rather than the comments. As I’ve shown, fewer than 1% of visitors even bother commenting.

As for whether the site is a community, unfortunately WordPress isn’t really suitable for that. If I’m going to create one, I’ll have to install another forum. I’m worried about doing that because it’s such a major time commitment, and would force me to write a lot less. I can’t justify that kind of effort given the meager returns. If, on the other hand, someone paid me a full-time wage, I’d probably say “let’s go for it.” But that simply isn’t what’s happening.

What it really comes down to is “what’s the most effective use of my time?” If it’s dousing out flame wars, assuaging hurt egos, distancing myself from insane posts, explaining myself to fellow bloggers who are angry about people insulting them here, etc., then that’s what I should be doing. But experience has shown that to be, for the most part, wasted effort. Therefore, it’s better to prevent it from happening in the first place.

handdisk July 28, 2012 at 12:40

When he started this site, I don’t think he was thinking in terms of market segments. Or for that matter what ‘image’ the site was going to project. This is why the Spearhead has been successful. Correct me if I’m wrong Bill…

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zed July 28, 2012 at 12:57

@Bill,

I have mostly avoided expressing any preferences because my bottom line is, and always will be, – it’s your call. The one who shovels the gravel always gets to decide how it gets shoveled.

I spent a lot of years doing my thing, my way. I wish my results had been better, which leaves me in a position that I cannot claim to be an expert and have the right to tell ANYONE “do it my way, it”s the right way.”

You are the one with skin in this game, not me. I’m not criticizing your decisions – in fact I generally tend to support them.

Managing a “community” of MRAs is a colossal PITA. I know.

However, the natural audience for what you write will contain a very high percentage of people who already have above average awareness and interest in the topics – and, a much higher level of anger regarding them. Regular readers of “Field & Stream” read it because they are interested in hunting and fishing, not just because they are interested in reading about hunting and fishing. Sooner or later, they are going to want to put down the magazine and go out hunting or fishing. The only value the magazine has for them when they do is what they learned from it that made them hunt or fish better.

I fully appreciate the spot you are in and the dilemmas you are facing. Remember that I have been talking with you about them for the past 3 years. I have no pat answers, and I am so sick of dealing with them in general that I have put the magazine down and spend the vast majority of my time hunting and fishing. And, I am not talking only and specifically about the Spearhead, I took a break of several months from the entire Manosphere.

I think that the biggest problem you face is that if you go after the “House & Garden” readers, that you will lose some – not all, but some – of the hardcore hunters and fisherman.

Every business goes through some sort of calculation about the price point for their product which maximizes their profit. If they cut their price to make their profit margin half as much, but increase their sales 4x, they are still making twice as much money. On the other hand, if they raise their prices to double their margin, and only lose 10% of their sales, they are money ahead.

The people you need to listen to regarding their preferences are the ones supporting you financially. Let everyone spout however much they want, but the opinions of anyone who does not support you financially should not amount to any more than a fart in a high wind.

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zed July 28, 2012 at 12:59

crap! Will you close that bold tag for me, Bill. And, if there is one thing that I would like to see added to the comments, it would be either a fuller-featured visual editor, or at least a preview button.

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handdisk July 28, 2012 at 13:00

Bill, you are confusing commenting with reading the comments!!1 Comment readers are NOT just 1%!
signed
The silent majority

As for a full time wage, I would say that in the grand scheme of things this site is very important and should you wish to sell it you could do so and stay on as ‘boss’. Could be worth a million. The buyer? Maybe some do-good NGO backed by who knows. You could sell but you would lose your integrity. But enough of the tinfoil hat thinking.

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W.F. Price July 28, 2012 at 13:50

@Zed

The need for a forum is pretty clear. I’ve had it on my mind for months. But this time, I really don’t want to do a half-assed job. It needs to be well-planned and well-executed.

What I’m leaning toward now is opening it first only to those who have supported the site, but I haven’t decided what kind of membership software to use. The thing is, making the wrong choice now could cost me hundreds of hours over the next six months. It’s pretty serious stuff.

As for the site — it’s a public blog and I’m just going to have to control the comments. Forums – restricted ones at that – are the proper place for the most open of speech.

zed July 28, 2012 at 14:02

??? The reply button is missing from your last comment.

Anyway,

I haven’t decided what kind of membership software to use.

http://www.invisionpower.com/products/board/

Invision Power Board, Invision Power Board, Invision Power Board!

Actually, there is a full suite of products available, including blog software, e-commerce, and publishing. And, they are all integrated with each other.

Plus, there is an import feature for WordPress sites.

The Spearhead has gotten too big, Bill. You are not going to be able to solve all the issues in a piecemeal fashion. I thing you have outgrown WordPress.

If you really want to curse someone, don’t wish failure on them, wish for them to succeed – success is far harder than failure to deal with. ;)

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zed July 28, 2012 at 14:13

I wonder if the reply feature only goes so deep – there is no way to reply to my last couple of comments, or your response.

Anywho…..

As for the site — it’s a public blog and I’m just going to have to control the comments.

Yes, you are. And, here is an example why – from another blog –

I have read that comment of yours on the Spearhead before and thought it was really excellent. In fact I often browse through that site to look for comments by you or XXXXXXX but I don’t comment on there myself since I have no interest in engaging lunatic racist bigoted idiots that seem to frequent that site.

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W.F. Price July 28, 2012 at 14:24

@zed

Yeah, they only go five deep. And yes — that stuff you quoted is exactly why I clamped down. As one guy, I’m at the mercy of organized groups of people who have another agenda unless I moderate.

meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:30

Make that 2 positives, handdisk. And yes, there is a silent majority.

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meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:31

Agreed also.

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meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:32

Experience. Elmer always speaks from experience. Didn’t you know that by now?

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meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:33

Well put. You just saved me some time, since I was going to type up the same line of reasoning.

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meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:40

I agree completely. But I have also learned that nothing good ever lasts. Probably something to do with entropy. Well, a half a loaf is better than none.

Part of expression is the ability to convey approval, or disapproval – to praise someone’s stance or condemn someone’s view. The voting buttons permitted that, and did so quite efficiently. It was data that could have ultimately been used as valuable feedback, even though the tools that always got downvoted into oblivion never seem to learn their lesson and adjust accordingly…

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meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:41

I just ‘upvoted’ you in my mind.

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meistergedanken July 28, 2012 at 14:42

I also ‘upvoted you’ in my mind.

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Lyn87 July 28, 2012 at 15:14

Bill’s house – Bill’s rules.

FWIW, I like that he switched from up/down to moderation. I predict the quality will go up, although the readership may go down.

The real question if I’m correct is, “What does that say about us?”

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zed July 28, 2012 at 15:34

I predict the quality will go up, although the readership may go down.

Not to appear to be flogging a horse which no one is sure is still breathing – if readership does end up going down, the only issue which really needs to concern Bill is whether the readership he loses is paying readership, or freeloading readership. If the ones who have supported the site stay, and the ones who just used it as their personal soap box leave, then it is like a store which only has half as many people in it, but sales are still the same and shoplifting has stopped.

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handdisk July 28, 2012 at 15:50

If you like that he doesn’t trust the readers to self moderate, that must mean you think the readers are stupid. And since you are a reader that must mean you think yourself stupid, right?

Maybe you just like that feeling of having a strong leader, whats that called again? Why would the quality of comments go up when there was nothing wrong with them? Some people seem to love fixing things that don’t need fixing.

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W.F. Price July 28, 2012 at 15:55

Not to appear to be flogging a horse which no one is sure is still breathing – if readership does end up going down, the only issue which really needs to concern Bill is whether the readership he loses is paying readership, or freeloading readership.

-Zed

Readership won’t go down because of comments at this point. That isn’t the concern.

The real problem that led to my changed position on moderation is that the site has grown to a point where the original community is starting to get overwhelmed. It worked fine when most readers were “in on it,” but that is no longer the case. Our memes have spread way beyond where they were three years ago. We’re seeing men’s issues as articulated here and on other sites being brought up everywhere.

The Spearhead really did make a difference. I very deliberately set out to influence the public by disseminating our ideas beyond a few niche interest groups, and it worked. I’m happy about that, but now that these concepts have entered mainstream dialog, we find that a lot of other people are coming in trying to lay claim to this new political faction.

The only way to prevent being usurped is to make sure that we continue to have some control over the direction of the dialog. That’s my job, and it isn’t all that easy.

However, there will be a solution. In the meanwhile, I have to survive and preserve what’s already been accomplished. So I’ll do my best to do that and simultaneously promote our interests. I actually like doing this, but I certainly don’t have a blank check, so it can be a bit of a struggle, and harsh reality is often knocking on my door.

Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 16:00

@ wih2

I agree. The up/down votes are an opportunity for some to interact and visit without commenting. I think it promotes traffic and interest and attention.

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Anonymous Reader July 28, 2012 at 16:08

Ok, put that way I’m inclined to agree with zed that this is just getting to be too big for WordPress. Elusive Wapiti solved his comment problems a while back on Blogger by going to the “login” option. Would prefer that not happen here, but it’s your site.

If I remember, a while back you discussed a two tier comment option – paying customers vs. nonpaying. Or membership-only vs. open. Etc. All have good points and problems.

If you decide any of those, please leave the option of paying offline – money order to PO box or some such – available. Anonymity on the net isn’t what is used to be, but still it’s something.

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Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 16:09

second…

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Darryl X July 28, 2012 at 17:03

@ zed -

I regard myself as probably one of the oldest members of the MRM. Before there even was an MRM. Not necessarily because of my age (although I am getting up there) but because of how long I’ve been a participant and making contributions. Starting likely when many MRA’s were still in diapers if they had been born already at all. It was a lonely world back then.

Feminism has crippled me financially, spiritually, socially, academically, intellectually, etc… I am often embarrassed for having to walk around with bailing twine to hold up my trousers and for not being able to afford medical care that I need and for not being able to afford to feed myself and for not being able to contribute financially to a site like the Spearhead and the MRM in general.

But I have made significant contributions if not financially. The MRM is comprised of a disproportionate number of men who are similarly disposed – poor. If you shoot all the wounded, there won’t be an MRM. Money is important but if you look at feminists as an example, it isn’t that important and is very corrupting. I understand the necessity for financial support of a site like the Spearhead but condemning men who are the victims of feminism and who cannot support it financially is not going to promote or encourage participation any more than putting a man in prison who is unable to pay his child support is going to compel him to pay.

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crella July 28, 2012 at 17:36

Hmmm…..’does that mean they should be censored’…well, racist comments and the like are to me somewhat like graffiti.

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Uncle Elmer July 28, 2012 at 18:10

“As for the salty language, think about it this way:

If you’ve got a fishing boat with a crew of six men it’s nothing.”

—————–

Didja hear about the girl who went fishing with 12 guys?

She brought back a Red Snapper.

Ta-doom-tish!

http://www.the-spearhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/otherguy.jpg

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Hf July 28, 2012 at 19:01

Perhaps some way to sort the new comments? ie- default the “replies” follow the comment to which the commenter is replying, but also a way to sort the new comments to the top, whether they be a reply or not…

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Lyn87 July 28, 2012 at 19:37

handdisk wrote:

If you like that he doesn’t trust the readers to self moderate, that must mean you think the readers are stupid. And since you are a reader that must mean you think yourself stupid, right?

I hardly know where to start deconstructing that. A very small percentage of readers also comment on this site. A small percentage of those commentators cause problems. Bill chose a remedy. How exactly does that translate into AR, or me, or anyone thinking that we are stupid? Seriously, there are guys here that are pretty comfortable with standard logic, and stuff like that won’t win you points with guys who can think.

Your “argument” goes like this:

Given: There are thousands of A’s.
A few dozen of those A’s are B’s.
A couple of those B’s are also C.
I am one of the A’s.
Therefore, I must be C.

See the problem you have there? If you still don’t get it, replace A with reader, B with commentator, and C with stupid.

Like a lot of guys here I have bandied this about with Bill before. I have encountered guys who like to argue and call names just for the sake of stirring up trouble. There are guys that will persistently deny undisputed facts because the have an emotional need for those facts to not be true. That’s bad enough, but then to denigrate anyone who says otherwise with the inevitable name-calling is, indeed, stupid.

Bill’s house – Bill’s rules, but I won’t miss them if they slink away.

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Charles Martel July 28, 2012 at 21:03

handdisk
should you wish to sell it you could do so and stay on as ‘boss’. Could be worth a million. The buyer? Maybe some do-good NGO backed by who knows.

I’ll be charitable and just say that valuation is, er, optimistic.

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greyghost July 28, 2012 at 23:33

handdisk
Hey man you need to chill. This is a one man operation. I send the guy as much as i can because of the amout of time I spend on here just commenting. The cat has a huge job and he is trying to accomplish something. even ole zed notices something different about the MRM as compared to what he has seen over the years. The strength of the spearhead is from welmer and his donaters and commenters and that includes you. One thing that really helps out when you have smart people around is the man responsible has his boys back him up. Rather than nit pick a best option try to understand what the mans reason for action is and use your brain power and ability to help the site acheive its goals.

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Masculist Man July 28, 2012 at 23:51

Although it’s a fairly substantial change, I’m now going to set the bar considerably higher, including for graphic language (long a pet peeve of mine), violent fantasies, personal attacks, attacks on other manosphere bloggers and unhelpful griping. I assume most people can handle this fine, and it will be a much more comfortable environment for the majority.

Would the “graphic language” and “violent fantasies” rules apply to those men who are unplugging from the matrix and have to get the anger out of their system?

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Masculist Man July 28, 2012 at 23:59

Please do not hijack this thread.

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bcdad July 29, 2012 at 00:06

I spend more time reading comments, though I do read all the articles. They both work to bring me here, and I refer others to this site for both.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 00:06

Also let them know there are pissed off men there. If they expect men to be altruistic no matter what then show us how it’s done.

I say to them put up or shut up.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 00:14

Thumbs up.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 00:30

Is that why everyone’s panties are in a bunch? Because of footrelle and the feminists? If we censor ourselves they win. Think about that. Fuck footrelle and feminists. Fooltrelle and the feminists can lick my shaft. I don’t give a flying fuck about them in fact they can take this post and stick it up their asses. Fuck them.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 00:56

The people you need to listen to regarding their preferences are the ones supporting you financially.

What if NOW sends him money?

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Wisecracker July 29, 2012 at 01:04

I believe the opposite would happen. The readership will grow larger but the quality will go down. I believe that most intellectual supporters, contributors, and readers of the Spearhead prefer the self-policing up-vote down-vote anarchy. Moderating the comments is sort of like casualizing a video game. It’s easier, more user friendly, but the hardcore players leave, and the only thing that is left are uncommitted dimwits. Of course this doesn’t harm the game sales- it usually improves it… but the game won’t win any awards or break any molds. The ‘casuals’ aren’t really interested in quality or controversy, they’re just looking for articles that self-validate their own views, like a circle jerk. And usually in a moderated environment, there develops a sort of inner group of ‘alpha’ commenters that no one is allowed to disagree with (due to donation status, ‘connections’, etc.) Dissent isn’t allowed, no matter if the community believes that it is a free open discussion or not.

If I were Welmer, I’d create a hybrid thread/vote system that truncates the comment sections into different colored(based on up/down votes) expandable threads. The MRM already has plenty of PC moderated self-approving blogs and websites that you could refer a member of the general population to so that they wouldn’t be ‘offended’ by fringe viewpoints. One of the reasons that I come to the Spearhead is that all viewpoints are welcome and that the community will self regulate and usually come to a consensus. I always read the comments to see what the Spearhead readers believe and agree with.

-Wise

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JFP July 29, 2012 at 01:42

Zed: “I have watched men unreasonably and irrationally cling to the “reasonable and rational approach” despite the fact that it never has worked and never will work.

Roissy has made more of a splash in the past 3 years than the entire MRM made in the previous 30. Men should take a clue from that. ”

True, and I did get a clue, though that started around 07-08 (been reading mrm forums etc. since early 2000 era) as a reaction to some of Glen Sacks’ stances. A diplomatic, moderate mindset was not working. Men were playing on the feminist field by their rules and expecting them to obey their own rules.

Moderates without extremists means the moderates are the extremists. Both sides have to check each other from getting out of hand and off topic but it has been clear in the last couple of years that the non meek methods are what is winning, not dulcet tones of cooperation and appeals to equality.

Time will tell if Spearhead will sink or swim. I wish you luck Price and hope to be reading in the future.

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handdisk July 29, 2012 at 03:07

You totally and conveniently misunderstood my argument. Again:

1. The upvote/downvote system WAS working = reader self moderation WAS working

2. Since you like the recent change that must mean you think it was NOT working

3. Since you think it was not working you must think that the readers are not up to the task a.k.a stupid, incompetetant, unqualified or some other unflattering word.

So you see I’m not the one calling people stupid – you are! I am not calling you names to cause trouble I am putting your own argument into other words in order to show the error of your opinion. You could argue that since Bill says it was not working then it wasn’t, but that would ignore the possibility that Bill is wrong. You could argue that since it is Bill’s site then he can by definition not be wrong. His site, his rules after all. To that I would reply see point 1, thats my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

Spearhead readers are NOT stupid but it has unpleasantly suprised me how many commenters support this change. I’m not calling the supporters stupid but misguided. I just don’t get how people can support having power taken from them, it seems like the definition of insanity to me.

Here in Sweden we have something called the ‘Jante law’ which is part of Nordic culture and basically says that you should not think you know anything more than anyone else and you as a person are nothing special and you should shut up and know your place. Could there be something similar in the US that explains the support?

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handdisk July 29, 2012 at 03:09

I was helping the site by voting up and down. Seems my help is not wanted anymore.

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Damage July 29, 2012 at 07:01

This is true, but for every dopey comment made there are 2 or 3 Really intelligently thought out one’s. Sometimes you learn more from the comments than you do from the actual blog.

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zed July 29, 2012 at 07:13

And, I think some comments are disappearing. Between last night and this morning the comment count for this post jumped by more than 10, but I scrolled through the entire thread and couldn’t find them.

Put me down on the side of hating this new reply format.

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zed July 29, 2012 at 09:57

Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 00:30

Is that why everyone’s panties are in a bunch? Because of footrelle and the feminists? If we censor ourselves they win.

JFP July 29, 2012 at 01:42

True, and I did get a clue, though that started around 07-08 (been reading mrm forums etc. since early 2000 era) as a reaction to some of Glen Sacks’ stances. A diplomatic, moderate mindset was not working. Men were playing on the feminist field by their rules and expecting them to obey their own rules.

Moderates without extremists means the moderates are the extremists.

The “middle of the road” is always defined as being halfway between the two extremes. For years I have watched weak, ineffectual, men trying to huddle up on the white line that they think is the “middle of the road”, and have far more concern about the people who are radical on the men’s side than they had for people who were radical on the women’s side.

Meanwhile, lunatics like Kate Millet, Susan Brownmiller, Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon, Mary Koss, Naomi Wolf, and Susan Faludi were standing out in left field, 3 counties over. The resulting discussion always gets pulled off the road, through the ditch, up the embankment, over the fence, and ends up in the middle of a cow pasture – and that is what feminasties consider the “middle of the road.”

If David Dung-beetle rolls up a wad of feces and takes it back to his nest for his sycophants to dine on, and they frown at us, all the Caspar Milquetoasts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milquetoast) of the MRB go scurrying back to their hidey-holes with their tails between their legs.

If men are afraid to use a bit of salty language and say some provocative things, heading into the arena of hardball politics is like showing up at a gun fight armed with a plastic spork.

Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 00:56

The people you need to listen to regarding their preferences are the ones supporting you financially.

What if NOW sends him money?

Or, what if the contributions dry up, Bill can’t make his rent, or pay the utility bills, or meet his child support obligations, and ends up in jail? What then? The Spearhead would just idle along without a driver until the first technical glitch shows up, and then it would be toast.

The attitude of entitlement I see among men is every bit as out of control as what I see among women. Bill is not obligated to provide the Spearhead as a free public utility to any self-important asshole who is in love with the sound of his own voice and wants to use the Spearhead as his private sound system and podium.

All of these comment threads have been full of “Well, I like…” or “I want…” disconnected from any sense at all of what it would take to provide it, and seemingly to imply the assumption that Bill should provide it for free.

For every opinion and preference expressed – someone expresses the opposite. No matter what Bill does, he is going to make someone unhappy.

If he makes the people unhappy who have helped him pay his rent, he is incurring quite a cost for whatever ideological purity he has shown. If he makes the freeloaders who sit around an swill up his free beer, and eat his free lunch, unhappy, and they leave – who gives a shit?

I love the old biker bumper-sticker/slogan –
“Gas, ass, or grass – nobody rides for free.”

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zed July 29, 2012 at 10:11

For some reason, I think these two clips are very appropriate to the topic of discussion –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NHcTM5IA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KvO-8IvoCI

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Rob July 29, 2012 at 10:54

“The “middle of the road” is always defined as being halfway between the two extremes. For years I have watched weak, ineffectual, men trying to huddle up on the white line that they think is the “middle of the road”, and have far more concern about the people who are radical on the men’s side than they had for people who were radical on the women’s side.” — Zed

Herein lies the entire problem with those in the ”Activism Shmactivism Brigade. Much of what men are calling for is any kind of activism or “movement” to be formed. However, if one looks at how far “the middle of road” has been moved into the radical feminist camp, the “reasonable activists” within the MRM would most likely unwittingly screw men far more than they already are.

Most of what the Activism Shmactivism Brigade is hollering for is for the government to come in and save men from society. However, this is exactly what men don’t need.

“Men don’t need protection by the law, mostly what we need is protection from the law. In the US, we used to have some pretty strong protections against runaway government interference and control of our lives. But, as women demanded ever-increasing government intervention into people’s lives to protect them from us, the systemic rights that people once had got entirely stripped away.

When we talk about “men’s rights”, it automatically assumes two tiers or sets of rights – one for men, and one for women. That goes against every foundation principle of US law and thinking – everything about it generally tries to establish one set of laws which apply to everyone. So, any true MRM would really have to be about re-establishing consitutional rights and reducing the size of government.”Zenpriest #55 – Now, Please Explain to Me What the Hell Men Need a “Movement” For?

Just any sort of “activism” will merely be a Pyrrhic Victory for men, because things are so whacked out and the “middle of the road” is far into the feminist bushes that it resembles a game trail rather than a road.

If, as many desire, a “real movement” suddenly arises – who will be its leaders? I would suspect Warren Farrell, Stephen Baskerville, Glenn Sacks, Strauss and Gelles, and others who would shove Boomer-topia down our throats. These guys all have good things to say about the gender war, but ultimately, Farrell would androgynize the sexes further to “create understanding,” Baskerville would agree that Father-Custody is the only true solution – but since he doesn’t think it is possible, he supports the worst thing that could happen to men and families, which is Shared-Parenting, which ultimately will double the amount of authority the government has over the family unit. Glenn Sacks would have us all embracing our inner kitchen bitch, and guys like Strauss and Gelles would expect more government funding to study male victims of DV, and would constantly recommend the taxpayer’s pony up more money to “deal with the problem.”

In other words, almost all of the visible leaders of the MRM – the ones that would come into power if we actually did form a unified movement – would all be requesting larger, more powerful, and more intrusive government. These are the very things that have screwed men over in the first place. More poison is not the antidote.

The middle of the road has been moved so bloody far already, that any “middle viewpoint” which gets acted upon will only lead to disaster. Until the middle of the road gets moved significantly further in our direction, men would do best to stay disorganized and continue to push the fringe further back into our direction.

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crella July 29, 2012 at 11:00

Handdisk,

‘Since you think it was not working you must think that the readers are not up to the task a.k.a stupid, incompetetant, unqualified or some other unflattering word.’

That is an unreasonable conclusion to draw, in my opinion. The down-vote function hides quotes, but they are still readable with a click, which I would imagine would necessitate Bill having to delete the really objectionable material. Perhaps this way is less work….he is doing this alone, and it has to be easy for him to keep up with. Down-voting isn’t moderation, it doesn’t rid the site of such posts, so it really isn’t a question of being ‘up to a task’.

How long have you been on here? I’m not asking as a kind of one-upmanship thing, but I was just wondering had you been here when every thread was filled with repeat postings by 2-3 people, effectually clogging every thread and wearing out everyone’s mouse’s scroll function…or if you saw what happened to the forum when barely moderated? That was filled with dozens of posts and threads about how teenage girls should be forcefully married off by their fathers and other wack-a-doodle things. Some of us have been here for 2-3 waves of people trying to take over the site and use it as their own pulpit, I am sure that more than one long-time reader has had enough. Bill has no obligation at all to allow content he disagrees with on his site. Period. I admire the work he’s doing, and trust him to do what’s best, and it’s his right as site owner. Nobody else has to be happy with it.

The repeat and/or hostile postings, fighting etc, is people taking advantage of Bill’s hospitality. Sort of like dropping a load in the middle of someone’s living room….while almost no one would do it in person (thank gods), people feel totally justified doing it online. Anything on the net is fair game, doesn’t matter if it’s someone else’s property, and any kind of civil manners be damned.

Do you have a blog? Do you moderate it? If you don’t moderate it, how do you keep it from being trashed regularly?

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W.F. Price July 29, 2012 at 11:49

Perhaps this way is less work….

-crella

Yes, that’s exactly it. I don’t know if people can imagine how much of a pain it was to deal with really stubborn people who would find new ways to violate the comments policy over and over. What they would do is post something reasonable, get approved, and then knowing they were good to go post all sorts of crap while I was otherwise occupied. I’d wake up and have to go through hundreds of comments, removing the objectionable ones, policy violators, flamers, trolls etc. All the while I’m getting trashed for hosting these people all over the rest of the manosphere. It really wasn’t Futrelle or feminists; MRM bloggers started writing posts dedicated to stupid comments that were appearing here, and saying that although they like the posts, the site sucks because of the comments. That’s when I said “enough.” Oh, I also had people threaten to “kick [my] ass” when I moderated them, call me a chickenshit Jew-lover — you name it.

It came out to more than a part time job just handling the comments alone, and needless to say I’m not getting compensated enough to make it worth it. Also, I’m just not interested in dealing with the frustration factor any longer. When I realized I was losing time with my kids because of a few real a-holes, that’s when it clicked into perspective for me.

handdisk July 29, 2012 at 11:54

zed July 29, 2012 at 09:57

“If men are afraid to use a bit of salty language and say some provocative things, heading into the arena of hardball politics is like showing up at a gun fight armed with a plastic spork. ”

Seems like Zed is against censorship. You should listen to him Bill.

“The attitude of entitlement I see among men is every bit as out of control as what I see among women. Bill is not obligated to provide the Spearhead as a free public utility to any self-important asshole who is in love with the sound of his own voice and wants to use the Spearhead as his private sound system and podium. ”

Here I disagree. 90% of the comments are sincere and honest. You could say that the commenters are providing a FREE service to Bill. Imagine this site without any comments! Businesses are starved for reviews and other human input. The same goes for voting, I put a lot of unpayed energy and thought into my votes, all for the good of this site. Examples: If I read a really good comment it would get an upvote. If I saw a decent but not exceptional comment and it already had upvotes I would skip voting. If a decent comment had more than 10% downvotes I would upvote it. Basically, if the up/down ratio was wrong I tried to fix it, for FREE. I don’t want to go all Barack ‘You didn’t build this’ Obama, absolutly Bill is the creator of this site and most of the excellent articles BUT he should not forget the readers and commenters and voters. We the readers do not just want to be passive.

“I love the old biker bumper-sticker/slogan –
Gas, ass, or grass – nobody rides for free.”

I don’t care for it. It’s not very Christian. If things are ever going to change we need to forget about the money.

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Darryl X July 29, 2012 at 12:13

@ Rob -

I agree that more government imposition is not the solution to a problem of too much government imposition.

I have often been at odds with others in the MRM who want to see changes to or additional laws for regulating child support enforcement or family law in general.

This is why I have always maintained that there is no legal, political, social or financial solution to our dilemma. More government does not solve the problem of too much government already.

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Darryl X July 29, 2012 at 12:19

@ handdisk -

I agree that many posters are providing a service to this site and to other members of the MRM when they present ideas and thought and analysis which enhances our strategic position. That’s why I think financial support is important but when not possible for some, participants can support the site and the MRM in other important ways.

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zed July 29, 2012 at 12:54

I don’t care for it. It’s not very Christian.

Perhaps you would prefer it if Bill changed the name of the site from “The Spearhead” to “The Q-Tip.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_swab

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handdisk July 29, 2012 at 12:57

crella July 29, 2012 at 11:00

“The down-vote function hides quotes, but they are still readable with a click, which I would imagine would necessitate Bill having to delete the really objectionable material”

I think what we have here is a difference in thinking due to sex. Only a woman could think it necessary to remove hidden comments to avoid offending people.

“Down-voting isn’t moderation, it doesn’t rid the site of such posts, so it really isn’t a question of being ‘up to a task’.”

Yes it is. A downvoted comment has been moderated by the readers. You can’t see it without clicking on another link, so the viewers delicate eyes have been spared. Its a pity we can’t see the comments that are moderated by Bill.

“How long have you been on here?”

A long time, several years. Nothing I have seen here has ever made me think ‘where are the moderators?’.

“That was filled with dozens of posts and threads about how teenage girls should be forcefully married off by their fathers and other wack-a-doodle things.”

Such wack-a-doodle things worked for thousands of years. Nowadays things are different and worse.

“Do you have a blog? Do you moderate it? If you don’t moderate it, how do you keep it from being trashed regularly?”

I don’t have a blog, but if I did I would hope to have the strength to not care too much about the comments.

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handdisk July 29, 2012 at 13:34

zed July 29, 2012 at 12:54

“Perhaps you would prefer it if Bill changed the name of the site from “The Spearhead” to The Q-Tip.”

Hahaha. Well if you read my other comments you’ll see that I am not a stereotypical niceguy like those usually associated with churchianity. I would rename the site to The AK-47. My point was that as long as we are obsessed with money/materialism we are playing a losing game.

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Rob July 29, 2012 at 14:30

“This is why I have always maintained that there is no legal, political, social or financial solution to our dilemma. More government does not solve the problem of too much government already.” — Darryl X

You are correct, but it goes to an even deeper level than that – one which I tried to illustrate with an article called Bull-Herding in the MRM. The whole line of thinking in forming such a “movement” is anti-male to begin with – and yet, this is what much of the MRM believes “activism” must be: a male parody of the female principle. Men are not herd creatures who find their power in numbers. Men find their power individually by shoveling the @*!$%ing gravel. Our power sits right in front of – all we have to do is reach down, pick it up, and use it. It just goes to show how feminized our culture has become that men, in order to ameliorate their grievances, would compare themselves to the feminist principle – aka “The Herd” – to measure our success and find our direction. “The Herd” does not work for men – it works for women, because since the beginning of time, women have manipulated either individual men, or larger society, into caring for them… conversely, since the beginning of time, the males of society had nobody to take care of them except for themselves.

There are lots of divisions that occur in the MRM – so many that it can’t be quantified (heh, we are individuals). But the biggest division I see occurring is that between a). the Boomer mentality of thinking some anonymous, randomly appointed government officials being able to create a perfect world in which we can all live under perpetual rainbows while prancing through fields of daisies on our unicorns, and b). the younger generations who’ve had their rose coloured glasses torn off by the excesses of the previous generations and are no longer seeking some mass “equality movement” to make us all live in heaven on earth, but rather are seeking to find their own individual ways to find satisfaction in life without asking for anyone’s permission nor moral approval.

That is not to say that speaking to the government is not a valuable exercise for men to follow… but, it pains me to see how many people think that our “movement” must be about getting government permission to live our lives as we wish. People could also write those “calm and respectful letters” to our elected representatives as follows:

“Dear Government,

I’ve decided to grow my own garden, and you were my inspiration. I figure that since every tax dollar you get you use to shove a firecracker up my ass, it is therefore in my best interest to give you as few tax dollars as possible. I figure that for each $2,000/yr I save by growing my own vegetables, I am depriving you of $1,000 in taxes which you will use to screw me, because in order to have $2,000 to spend, I have to first earn $3,000 in the job-market, then give you $1,000 in income taxes which you use to abuse my position as a man. Thus, I am growing a Victory Garden, to make sure bastards like you screw me over as little as possible.

Sincerely,

A Man Who’s Had Enough!”

The way to win the game is to stop playing the game and walk away. It’s a rigged game anyway, and the only ones that ultimately benefit are those in government.

Not only can women not survive without the help of men, but get this – neither can the government.

And no, we don’t have to make an offer to them in order for us to stay involved. We can live fine without those two groups – they, however, can’t maintain their standards of living, nor their power, without men being engaged in society. So, women and government, how about you figure out a way to entice men back into a meaningful role in society… it benefits them more than us. Men can survive with a pocket-knife and a garbage bag. Now we are talking about men dealing from a position of their strength rather than playing the game by female rules, where the game is heavily skewed in their favour.

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Darryl X July 29, 2012 at 15:32

@ Rob -

Great post and I’m totally on board with every word. Except I don’t think I can live anymore with a pocket knife and a garbage bag. Age has its disadvantages. And there was a time when a man actually could walk away from society and women and the government (many have done it) but those days are past and the government and women have invented many inconvenient mechanisms with which to hunt a man and get up his nose. There are no frontiers anymore. That’s why at this point I really just am looking for a fight because I just want to kick these people’s asses.

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Darryl X July 29, 2012 at 16:08

@ Rob -

Another thought I hope you’ll appreciate the logic of. I do not believe that appealing to their (feminists) need of us will work. Although you and I know that in order to maintain civilization, they need us more than we need them. However, they don’t care about civilization. These people lack any analytical skills and are so stupid that they can’t tell the difference between living in a mansion and living in a cave. To them either is evidence of their success in oppressing us as long as we are enslaved to supply them with any standard of living whether it is a cave or a mansion. That’s not what drive’s feminists. I look at their behavior through the prism of addiction. Whatever satisfies their addiction to power and control is all they care about. Not the outcome. For them the means always justify the ends. And the means are enslavement of us and the ends are their addiction to power and control. They don’t care about any standard of living. They don’t believe somehow that only one of us can achieve a certain standard of living and that if they can be convinced and shown that their is an alternative where both can have the same high standard they will take it. It is important from their perspective that any standard of living is OK with them as long as it is at our cost. That’s all they care about. As I’ve written before, these people are evil. They can’t reasoned with. Walking away won’t help. To them, they’ve won. They must be destroyed. It’s the only solution. It’s as simple as that. And we will not be free until enough like-minded men have organized for that and only that specific goal. It is the only thing throughout history which has worked.

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Rob July 29, 2012 at 16:39

@ Darryl X,

No you are right – “appealing” to women is completely ineffectual. Women are like children – they are the most responsible teenagers in the house.

What makes a difference is doing something which negatively affects them directly.

I am reminded of my aunt, some thirty plus years ago. She was so fed up with running after her kids, telling them to clean up their toys, only to have them never do it, or do a half-assed job, that one day she just scooped all of their toys into a garbage bag and set it out at the curb with the rest of the garbage.

Those kids hopped to it to clean up their toys after that experience. Problem solved.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 17:55

Or, what if the contributions dry up, Bill can’t make his rent, or pay the utility bills, or meet his child support obligations, and ends up in jail? What then? The Spearhead would just idle along without a driver until the first technical glitch shows up, and then it would be toast.

Zed,obviously you missed the point. I was saying if NOW contributes do they decide what is published here.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 17:59

The attitude of entitlement I see among men is every bit as out of control as what I see among women. Bill is not obligated to provide the Spearhead as a free public utility to any self-important asshole who is in love with the sound of his own voice and wants to use the Spearhead as his private sound system and podium.

If he makes the people unhappy who have helped him pay his rent, he is incurring quite a cost for whatever ideological purity he has shown. If he makes the freeloaders who sit around an swill up his free beer, and eat his free lunch, unhappy, and they leave – who gives a shit?

Zed,I’ve lobbied on behalf of men: http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com/

What have you done?

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 18:09

Herein lies the entire problem with those in the ”Activism Shmactivism Brigade. Much of what men are calling for is any kind of activism or “movement” to be formed.

Most of what the Activism Shmactivism Brigade is hollering for is for the government to come in and save men from society. However, this is exactly what men don’t need.

If you have better solution that will benefit men let’s hear it.

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Masculist Man July 29, 2012 at 18:29

There are a few trolls here telling us activism doesn’t work well I say they’re liars Look for yourself: http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com/search?q=activism

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Rob July 29, 2012 at 18:35

If you have better solution that will benefit men let’s hear it. — Masculist Man

If you’ve read that far, then perhaps you should read the rest before putting your dickhead hat on.

You aren’t the only putz whose been sitting here doing shit for free for years, bubba.

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American July 29, 2012 at 19:12

I agree its the articles that are the main attraction on the spearhead, but the com mentors do make it interesting.

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Darryl X July 29, 2012 at 19:19

@ Masculinist Man -

I thought your comment about NOW is spot on. They’ve been calling the shots for years by getting the government to steal money from men. I don’t know if I’d encourage the MRM to sink to that level and do the same but it certainly does illustrate the power of money and how it corrupts thought and that we don’t want it to be a corrupting influence for the MRM. Money definitely has its advantages but considerable disadvantages too. There’s a balance. We certainly don’t want the MRM to be taken over by moneyed interests. Just ask GB4M.

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zed July 29, 2012 at 19:33

I’ve lobbied on behalf of men:

That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee a lot of places.

The MRM is not the Spearhead, nor is the Spearhead the MRM. It is a private blog run by a guy named Bill Price, who also has kids and a life outside the Spearhead.

He claims one of the simplest and most fundamental rights of men – the right to define and defend what he has built. He owes some debt of gratitude toward those who supported him in building it, and not much to anyone else.

He is quite willing to let people go along for a free ride, as long as they appreciate what they are getting. He does not seem so willing to let people order him around like their own personal bitches and demand he implement their preferences against his better judgment of what is best for the site and for him.

Or, as Lyn87 eloquently summed it up in 4 words – “Bill’s house, Bill’s rules.”

For someone who claims the moniker “Masculist Man”, you seem remarkably clueless regarding some fundamental masculine values.

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crella July 29, 2012 at 20:09

‘Zed,I’ve lobbied on behalf of men: http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com/

What have you done?’

(Ahem) You might rethink that question…

handdisk

‘I think what we have here is a difference in thinking due to sex. Only a woman could think it necessary to remove hidden comments to avoid offending people.’

Not ‘only a woman’…you do realize I didn’t start this discussion…I was disagreeing with your assertion equating discontinuing the voting up/down system with saying that we think readers are stupid. It’s not about ‘not offending people’ as much as Bill deciding to do away with commentary that is not in line with his vision of the site. What I meant by saying that down-voting is not moderation is that they are still accessible and can be copied and reproduced other places, which is exactly what has been happening these past few weeks. Bill gets pilloried for the comments inconsiderate people leave.

The only post I recall as being removed, that I remember Bill talking about was a post by someone advocating assassination of a politician.

Bill said:

“I don’t know if people can imagine how much of a pain it was to deal with really stubborn people who would find new ways to violate the comments policy over and over. What they would do is post something reasonable, get approved, and then knowing they were good to go post all sorts of crap while I was otherwise occupied. I’d wake up and have to go through hundreds of comments, removing the objectionable ones, policy violators, flamers, trolls etc. All the while I’m getting trashed for hosting these people all over the rest of the manosphere. It really wasn’t Futrelle or feminists; MRM bloggers started writing posts dedicated to stupid comments that were appearing here, and saying that although they like the posts, the site sucks because of the comments. ”

“Such wack-a-doodle things worked for thousands of years.”

The comments on the forum were about taking people’s daughters away from them and putting them on farms for men to use for sex, and all kinds of off the wall things that anyone with common sense would be uncomfortable with, not arranged marriage .

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handdisk July 30, 2012 at 09:36

” It’s not about ‘not offending people’ as much as Bill deciding to do away with commentary that is not in line with his vision of the site. ”

“It really wasn’t Futrelle or feminists; MRM bloggers started writing posts dedicated to stupid comments that were appearing here, and saying that although they like the posts, the site sucks because of the comments. ”

Well I’m going to call bullshit (or is it b*llsh*t) here since I have seen no such posts. A much more probable scenario would be that Bill wants to make more money from the site and is profiling it for a more mainstream audience. The lowest common denominator for maximum bucks so to speak. And while it is his prerogative to do so, it is mine to point this out – if this comment makes it past the censor.

The Spearhead WAS unique, soon it will be just another site.

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Yeoman July 30, 2012 at 10:34

I come here for the articles. I discuss, argue, and banter elsewhere.

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crella July 30, 2012 at 10:40

Because you didn’t see them doesn’t mean they did not exist…

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Masculist Man July 30, 2012 at 15:37

For someone who claims the moniker “Masculist Man”, you seem remarkably clueless regarding some fundamental masculine values.

I wasn’t talking about Bill Price I was talking about you and you ducked the question and instead resorted to shaming tactics. If REAL activists such as myself are victorious then Bill’s burden along with other guy’s burdens will be lessened now won’t it?

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Masculist Man July 30, 2012 at 15:42

(Ahem) You might rethink that question…

Why would I want to rethink that question?

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Masculist Man July 30, 2012 at 16:29

If you’ve read that far, then perhaps you should read the rest before putting your dickhead hat on.

I read it. You basically said that a “men’s movement” is “anti-male” and that petitioning the government over issues which effect men is waste of time whereas I prove that you are wrong.

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crella July 30, 2012 at 16:38

Asking Zed what he’s done is just……..

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Masculist Man July 30, 2012 at 16:45

Asking Zed what he’s done is just……..

……the right thing to do.

Can Zed speak for himself or does he need his sock puppet to speak for him?

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