Fathers of Daughters

by Featured Guest on July 22, 2012

By Lyn87

Full disclosure: I have no daughters. In fact, I have no children at all, so I am not speaking from personal experience – just laying out my observations. But as an “outsider” I have observed guys who have daughters, and sometimes their conduct leaves me scratching my head in confusion.

About two weeks ago I made a post about the guys I work with. What puzzled me was the degree to which they defer to their wives. And by defer, I do not mean that they are doormats, or even disagree with their wives a lot: but the fact that their wives have the veto authority in their marriages, and that the guys subordinate their desires – and judgment – to keep their wives happy. THAT is the ultimate test of who wears the pants in the family – and these guys willingly admit that their wives have the final say. Not only are they not ashamed to admit to what amounts to “wearing the skirts” in their families, but they assume that is the natural order of things. The blue pill is so pervasive that, in a real sense, they don’t even realize that they ARE wearing the skirts.

Not that I care: they all seem happy with their arrangements and far be it from me to tell them how to live their lives – I just find it curious. But that’s background information, not the central point of this piece.

Since I made that post I went on a trip with the guys on my team (we live in different places and only see each other when we go on the road). We were sampling the local cuisine and the conversation included vacation stories, financial plans, politics, family, work, relationships… the usual stuff guys talk about over a couple of brews. One guy has teenage daughters that he’s planning to put through college. I could not resist inserting some red pill into the mix, so I mentioned that 60% of degrees were going to women, and that women prefer to marry up. Since “educated” women don’t often go for “uneducated” men, a lot of women of his daughter’s generation were on their way toward spinsterhood for lack of “suitable” mates.

He’s a smart guy and the implication for his daughters was obvious. He even acknowledged the truth of it. But his response was, “I’m still glad it’s not the way it used to be.”

I get it: he’s proud of his kids. Why not? They’re doing well academically (as they should: as girls the entire education system is geared toward their success). They stay out of serious trouble. He wants what is best for them. Even as a non-parent I understand all that.

What is disheartening about it is that he does not see the connection between “it’s not the way it used to be” and “a lot of women of his daughter’s generation are on their way toward spinsterhood.” The blue pill is EVERYWHERE. I’m nearly convinced that some malevolent group of “Jezebels” is dissolving blue pills into the supply of drinking water.

Consider his daughters. I’m sure they are good kids who would make any parent proud. But they don’t live on an island – they live among their peers and within the confines of biological and demographic reality. Even if EVERY one of their male college classmates marries one of his female classmates, a third of those young women will not find a male age-peer who is even her “academic equal,” much less someone with a higher level of education. But not every male graduate will marry a female classmate. Some will marry down. Some will choose not marry at all. Then subtract out the guys who are “creepy,” gay, or otherwise unsuitable, and we are left with a generation of “educated” women who are barreling toward a demographic wall at high velocity.

Marry up? My buddy’s daughters will be lucky if they can marry “across.” Many women of that generation will face hard choices: supply and demand in the adult world doesn’t much care how “empowered” you were in college. The women of that generation may be able to marry down, but few will want to. They may not marry at all and become wards of the state when they bear bastard children. They may become involuntary childless spinsters. They may go for much older men, but many of them have been through the Family Court meat grinder and must devote much of their effort to paying their exes’ bills.

We know the score here: the degrees these girls are getting cluster in the “Who are you trying to kid?” category. They are not truly superior to the guys of their generation, but that degree in “You Must Be Joking!” makes them think they are. Most emerge from college with a pile of debt, no marketable skills they didn’t already possess in high school, and a few laps around the carousel – older but no wiser, and blissfully unaware that half of their years of prime beauty and fertility are already in the rear-view mirror.

Once upon a time fathers could and often would look after their daughter’s futures. Guys like my buddy still try to do that, but the blue pill is so pervasive that he thinks “get them into a good college” is the biggest part of looking after their futures.

These are not the usual “failures in waiting:” girls raised by slutty (but heroic!) single mothers. These girls come from a good two-parent family that values education and achievement. And, thanks to feminism, the odds are even stacked against them.

But hey, at least it’s not like it used to be.

{ 91 comments… read them below or add one }

SIRREAPER July 22, 2012 at 04:39

That and the fact that the men are also wiser in this generation and know that marriage is a rigged game more and more every day, and refuse to do it ensures this spinsterhood and cock carousel you speak of….pheminism liberates more men every day to not have to be the provider…and soon it will be all red pills for the men, and more anti psychotic’s for the girrlllllzzzz, and we will see more laws, and stories about where all the good men have gone punishing our non married lives and chart’s that continue to show marriages going down, replacement populations outside of immigration going down, and female happiness going down, but hey at least they think they liberated themselves ;)

Feminism: The ridiculous assertion that gender equality can be achieved by focusing solely on the ‘concerns’ of one gender.

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Paul Murray July 22, 2012 at 05:08

Women value anything men do. They automatically assume that the guys have the cools stuff. As fewer guys get degrees in proportion to women, the SMV of having a degree will drop (especially since they are handing put PhDs for crotch studies in exchange for money). Eventually , it will be “Waaah, why can’t we get into trade school?” and every woman with a masters will want to marry up and snag herself a plumber.

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Antifeminist One July 22, 2012 at 05:11

Perhaps I could offer some insight from another perspective.

My partner, for example, might as well be one of those girls grown up. She holds multiple (actually useful) master degrees, is highly educated and comes from a wealthy family. On the other hand, I have no higher education and come from a working class family.

We get along together fine. She has traditional values though, is feminine and not a careerist femcunt, she also aims to please her man.

Oh, I should probably mention that she’s an import though. No way can I see this happening with a western(ised) girl.

Yep, the feminism bubble inflates further.

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Days of Broken Arrows July 22, 2012 at 05:36

He’s a smart guy and the implication for his daughters was obvious. He even acknowledged the truth of it. But his response was, “I’m still glad it’s not the way it used to be.”

So he means that now instead of his daughter someday marrying the guy she met at 18, he’d prefer to be using every orifice when she’s a fucktoy for a line of Alpha males who’ll pump and dump her. And he means that he doesn’t want a son-in-law or grandchildren. Well, I guess that’s all well and good, so long as it’s not “the way it used to be.”

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Tam the Bam July 22, 2012 at 05:47

“They may not marry at all and become wards of the state when they bear bastard children.” is what I’ve concluded has/is happening in the UK with its (unsustainable and munificent) welfare trough, open to practically all comers.
The “private sector” route to dependency is the well-worn marry/spawn/dump loser gambit ( could be married, or increasingly common among the degree-bearing classes, just shacked up for a bit).

Let’s face it, no mere man is ever going to be good enough for these daddy’s little princesses/feisty feminists (same thing, I’ve observed; insufferable nitwits). They’re the pinnacle of all creation, and by gum, don’t they know it!

Cue the hellions of the benighted and incompetent ‘Child’ Support Agency, supplemented by an ocean of benefit payments for every conceivable want known to woman-kind, courtesy of HMRC (i.e. from taxpaying mugs, male or female. And their children).

Fools and horses, mate, fools and horses ..

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freebird July 22, 2012 at 05:55

To quote John Belushi:
“How much for the little girl?”

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Okrahead July 22, 2012 at 06:00

Just a thought on why so many men defer to their wives (especially in matters pertaining to daughters): Frivolous divorce. If the husband/father vetoes the wife’s decisions, she get’s pissed, her girlfriends/family/counselor all advise her to get a divorce on grounds of mental cruelty, she then does so, taking the daughter whom he will be lucky to ever see again (restraining order for being “too controlling”, which “frightens” the poor ex-wife mother) and loses the majority of his financial assets. So once again the mother makes all decisions and now he is COMPLETELY out of the child’s life. It does explain why some men let their wives have the veto.

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Zorro July 22, 2012 at 06:07

I recently read that same-sex education is making a comeback.

All-boys schools are the answer for boys. And it’s not to get away from the girls. It’s to get away from the women! Female teachers (77% of public school teachers are women, and most are fembots) are the problem.

Put boys in an all-male environment and their reading deficiency all but disappears, discipline improves, and their grades go straight up.

Free the school system of feminism and watch the males come racing back. I would not subject my son to the horrors of the American public-finances feminist indoctrination system.

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dhanu July 22, 2012 at 06:09

These “it’s not the way it used to be” responses always feel like those people have been living about a half century past or so and have just now started to see the change, of whose consequences they’re neither aware nor serious about. Someone needs to tell them that the pendulum has swung to the other extreme and now the ‘change’ and ‘equality’ being sought have a different meaning. They seem to think that the long due change has happened, feminism has stopped or is only active in a few areas as it promised back then, and now the situation is all good for everyone. In fact, the changes the feminism has brought are so ridiculous, so discriminatory, and so unconstitutional that unless they see a constant stream of live events happening in front of them, people can’t believe that we’ve come that far in the path of absolute evil.

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Jimbo July 22, 2012 at 06:17

Regarding who wears the pants in the family. I run a small business. I give price quotes to homeowners everyday. Sometimes it is fairly clear that the man is the one in charge who will make the decision as to whether or not to hire me, sometimes it is the woman, sometimes it is a team decision. When it is the man, as a rule, their wives seem to be nice ladies, when it is a team decision, the wives seem to be nice ladies or “ok” ladies, but when the woman is making the decision, it is very easy to see that they are bitches I would not want to be married to. Looking at the pussified husband is enough to make you run for your life alone. He is both ignorant and appears to have no testicles. The wife is an ignorant, self-righteous knowitall.
That being said, there are some exceptions to the rule for men and women in the situation where the woman wears the pants. Sometimes the woman had to put on the pants because she married and idiot and there was simply no choice for her. She had to. Other times, the man is not really an idiot, he simply tolerates for the sake of his children and for the right to be with them. To him, his wife isn’t really his wife, she’s just a bitch that he lives with so as to be with his kids.
God bless the poor bastards. I just had a cousin who told his father that his marriage/divorce cost him a million dollars. He also told his father (my uncle) that it was worth it to get her out of his life. A wife that turns into a man’s worst nightmare. Happens everyday.

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zed July 22, 2012 at 06:48

@Lyn87,

I have several college friends who have no sons – only daughters. So far none of the girls has majored in “Who are you trying to kid?” One of them did a very good job of assessing current demand for specialized education and walked out of college with several job offers making more than her dad did after 35 years in his career.

Sometimes I think we need a new colored pill. When people put a red pill narrative over a blue pill narrative it sometimes turns out that they see things in a sort of “purple pill” kind of way. Perhaps we need a green pill or an orange pill to add to our pill box.

“The way things used to be” included for a lot of men the necessity of providing some sort of dowry for each of their daughters. It included supporting those women until they snagged a suitable husband, and in some cases supporting them for life because they didn’t. It included sweating out for a couple of decades figuring out how to get the girls “married off”, and hoping that they got them married well.

Typically, sons added to a man’s wealth and well-being, daughters divided it. Having a daughter who ended up a childless “spinster school marm” was often of far more concern to the mothers than it was to the fathers. When girls married they traditionally left the household of the father and joined their husband’s family. Wealth created by the husband would be far more likely to flow up to the husband’s father than to the wife’s father.

It has always been expected that sons would not only find a way to support themselves and their families, but would also likely contribute the fruits of their labors to their sire’s dynasty. Daughters were far more likely to be a drain on the family resources until the father found a way for them to support themselves – either job or husband.

It was far more likely that sons would distinguish themselves in the outside world and be a source of pride for the family. Tim Tebow’s father can bask in Tim’s outworldly success. Tami and Teri Tebow would have been far more likely to spend their lives flying under the radar of public recognition.

There is a cluster of social values which must be present in people for them to throw up their hands in horror when they hear the world “spinster.” Purple-pillers still largely hold these values, and do not realize how deeply and tectonically they have shifted within the population as a whole.

A man who has a daughter who is a lesbian – like Dick Cheney – has to accept that if he does manage to get her married off to someone, it is likely to be to another woman. He is likely also happy that things aren’t like they used to be, so that one or both of the women can make a decent living and he doesn’t have to choose between supporting her as long as he lives or watching her live in a trailer park eating Alpo.

Strangely enough, none of my friends with only daughters, no sons, has never uttered the phrase “men/boys today need to ‘man up’.” That BS comes from much older men, and the women who have suddenly started to figure out how badly women have screwed the pooch when it comes to their future meal tickets.

I don’t think many people have realized how deeply and fundamentally social values have changed – while they have been fighting those social changes tooth and nail. But, changed they have.

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walking in hell July 22, 2012 at 07:15

“What puzzled me was the degree to which they defer to their wives.”

If the man makes an effort to “wear the pants,” he can very well be accused of emotional abuse or domestic violence. Then he will be assaulted by the family courts and not only be financially ruined, but lose his children. If he remains silent, he lives a repressed life. These are the two very unhappy choices men in America face when they decide to marry and have children.

“My buddy’s daughters will be lucky if they can marry “across.” ”

It would not surprise me if we see a “mail order groom” website in the future. Of course, just like everything else, women will want to be just like men in this area. As long as she has money, some foreign man will want to marry her for a passport, even with her deformed body and mind.

When I was in Czech Republic, basically the American women had no currency in terms of face, body, or personality and had to buy any affection with hard currency. In order to have a man, American women had to support a Czech man with clothes, restaurant outings, and other “gifts.” Out of pride, these women would call the Czech man her “boyfriend” even though the man had a Czech girlfriend that did not have to pay for his time and affection.

“And, thanks to feminism, the odds are even stacked against them.”

These women, by virtue of the backwards man-woman dynamic they have observed between their mother and father, will be very dysfunctional in their relationship as well.

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Big Un's July 22, 2012 at 07:20

I had a friend in college who married an ardent feminist, and then had two daughters. He basically turned into a radical feminist, and his facebook timeline became something like I’d expect to see on Amanda Marcotte’s timeline. I had it out with him a couple of times on some ridiculous misandry he posted, and he blocked me.

A year later, and I am hearing that he and his wife are “separated.”

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Thos. July 22, 2012 at 07:32

Three men died in Aurora using their bodies as shields, taking bullets for their girlfriends: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395

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walking in hell July 22, 2012 at 07:42

A little off-topic.

For years I have been trying to find a positive outcome from the misandry that is directed at men in America. The only slightly positive outcome I can see is that men won’t enter an institution that is so repressive and destructive to them; they will avoid marriage and children.

But from what I can see this is a pyrrhic victory. For it is only based on avoiding women and children, which is truly one of the greatest joys in life; just not in America where the entire notion of family has been perverted.

I would be interested to know if anyone can see a silver lining in the nihilism between the sexes that is the outcome of extreme hatred and repression directed at men.

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Anon July 22, 2012 at 07:52

Thankfully, my daughter is pre-med and therefore taking full advantage of what I’m paying for undergrad. On the other hand, however, that means one less doctor available for marriage to someone else’s daughter.

So it goes.

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Lyn87 July 22, 2012 at 07:53

@ Big Un’s,

That’s a sad story, and it proves the adage, “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.” You showed him the red pill, but he didn’t want it to be true, so he lashed out at you.

Now he is learning what happens when you ignore painful realities. He sounds like the kind of guy who will supplicate himself before his wife to try to win her back – which will only increase her disdain for him. The one thing that might work is to stand up to her and hope she comes around rather than calls the cops. But in all likelihood he’s going to lose his marriage permanently, end up paying through the nose for years, have little or no contact with his daughters, and watch as the cycle repeats when they grow up.

He shot himself in the foot – probably because he spent his entire life being told that feminism is correct and good feminist men don’t get shafted by women. Time will tell if he learns anything from this.

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Charles Martel July 22, 2012 at 07:56

What puzzled me was the degree to which they defer to their wives. And by defer, I do not mean that they are doormats, or even disagree with their wives a lot: but the fact that their wives have the veto authority in their marriages, and that the guys subordinate their desires – and judgment – to keep their wives happy.

Men are handicapped in marriage. We see the future, we remember the past. She lives in a little bubble of the present. Men have a sense of fairness, of justice. She is relentlessly self-interested. Men can put themselves in her shoes, see her point of view. She can only see her own point of view.

Most fathers recognize to some degree that their needs are now secondary, that their role is to sacrifice. We are evolved to be expendable and many men embrace that role.

Marriage is much easier without children. Easier to walk away from but with no particular need to. With children, the stress rises exponentially and so does the desire to run, but now that’s impossible. Not only the full weight of family law but more your loyalty to your children hold you in place.

The only way out of this dilemma is dumb luck. To have the dumb luck to marry a woman who you eventually discover is a decent human being. You can improve the odds in your favor by making enough money that she’ll be financially worse off if divorced. And that is the whole sorry story.

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Rebel July 22, 2012 at 08:26

Sometimes, I wonder if this really matters. After all, your friend s happy and he wouldn’t have it any other way.
My brother-in-law is what you would call the ultimate floormat. Although he is the one with all the money, she sleeps in the master’s bedroom and he has crammed the little 9*9 bedroom with all his “stuff”.
He sleeps on a bunker bed. Last winter, she spent three months in Mexico because she could no longer stand being with him and while she was bathing in the sun, he painted her bedroom.

But he’s happy.

My other brother-in-law goes beyond that. He has said:”I was born to serve women”. The harpy he is married to controls everything in is ife, even what he eats and how much.

He is just like a lapdog.

But he’s happy.

Of all the guys I know who are married, NOT ONE wears the pants.

But they are happy!

So, does it matter anymore?
Not sure now.

The very minute minority of men who still stand on their two feet blog here. Very few indeed. Sometmes, I feel like a dinosaur for thinking by myself.

That’s why I never try to convince any man to stand up for himself: none of them wants that. That is the extent of the feminization of men.

So be it!

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Anonymous age 70 July 22, 2012 at 08:27

Times have changed. My daughter was born in 1968. I raised her to be a wife and a mother, also to be able to support herself in case she found no husband.

To raise your daughter to be an entitlement princess IMO is child abuse.

All the men I knew of my generation also raised their daughters to be able to function as a wife and mother, as well as work if needed.

Perhaps those dads are correct to raise their girls to be strong and independent, since the odds of getting a husband are sinking to the bottom of the pits.

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Elusive Wapiti July 22, 2012 at 08:27

“Put boys in an all-male environment and their reading deficiency all but disappears, discipline improves, and their grades go straight up.”

While definitely an improvement, sex-segregated public schooling isn’t the answer. The problem is public schooling itself…the curriculum, the techniques, the values it teaches, etc.

Moreover, I don’t see sex-segregated schooling ever happening. Google “school sued sex-segregated single sex” or something similar and see all the lawfare underway to keep classrooms sex-integrated.

The answer is to pull kids, especially boys, out of all public schools and homeschool them. Private schooling may not be enough, as the curriculum and the teaching methodology is likely to be identical to the public schools one is attempting to escape.

To save a generation, we have to replace the hand that rocks the cradle. There is no such thing as value-neutral schooling/education; the question is what agenda is pushed.

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Pugs Fugly July 22, 2012 at 08:34

From my experience, some of that “defer to the wife” attitude is simply a matter of not really caring about whatever it is the wife insists on seizing the helm over. Sometimes it’s easier and less stressful to stand aside and let her have her way if you couldn’t care less about what she’s going on about. You have to pick your battles or you wind up fighting all the time. I wouldn’t be suprised if most of these men put their foot down on the issues and rules that really mattered to them; the important things that have long-term ramifications.

My daughter is only 3, and I’m hoping that, as much as I’ve seen things change in the last 20 years, things will be different for her than they are now. I just hope it’s better and not worse.

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gender foreigner July 22, 2012 at 09:07

Dear Zorro:

Amen. Of course, the criminal women’s government school curriculum would have to be remade in toto and the Ministries of Women’s Crimes in Education must be eliminated/replaced with their opposites and the criminal women’s government universities, criminal women’s teacher unions…, well, you get the picture.

Thanks for the comment, an understatement (really–this is NOT a criticism of you–I have over 22 years in this criminal women’s system, university indoctrination, etc.). Things are ALWAYS much worse than what those outside the system know. Bad is worse than bad.

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Rebel July 22, 2012 at 09:14

Schools for boys only?

Don’t even think of it!

Here in Quebec, where about 40% of boys drop out of school, the gov. opened two schools for boys only.
After two year, the success rate was so obvious that they had to close down the two schools. The feminists here made it clear that they would not stand for that male “priviledge” anymore.

Meanwhile, girls only schools are flourishing everywhere.

Maybe, but just maybe, most or all girls will be sent to “girls only” schools, so that the co-ed schools will be peopled by boys only.
Either that, or the fems will order those schools to be closed.

I suspect that in a few years (I’ll be dead by then..) boys will not be allowed an education. I am seriously thinking it could happen.
But then again, the full weight of society will fall upon women’s shoulders. Take a look at the Mosuo tribe in China and… contemplate the future.

It may not be all that bad: there is no way that a worldwide matriarchy can never sustain seven billions of humans.

Patriarchy has been too successful in that it has resulted in human’s ability to multiply beyond the planet’s capacity to accomodate. Maybe the solution to world overpopulation is matriarchy where men just sit idly , do nothing, do not look for solutions and are just happy to have no responsibility and no obligation.

Patriarchy, when you think of it, has been much harsher on men than on women.

So,who stands to lose the most?
Secondly: does it matter?

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Migu July 22, 2012 at 09:44

Dad did fine with my two sisters in spite of the divorce. It just isn’t easy, and us sons have no intention of marrying. The woman does not matter, it’s the laws we are subjected to. NAWALT is true, but it doesn’t matter the NAWALT gets deemed clinically insane as soon as she makes the mistake of calling 911.

What was the San Francisco sheriff’s name again?

I’ll cut a deal with a woman. It involves her giving up the hammer of the judge and trusting me to be the judge. If not, Meh?

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Andie July 22, 2012 at 10:07

This is a really great topic, Lyn87, and one that my husband and I struggle with. We have two daughters and one son and we live in a traditional family arrangement: one career, one caregiver (our FAMILY has it all).

Our eldest daughter is 10 and starting to think about “what do I want to be when I grow up” and whenever she puts forth an idea (no matter how far-fetched or implausible), we always ask her: Do you want to have children? Who will take care of the children if you are a figure skater/astronaut/cardiologist/brick mason? Who took care of you? Mommy or a daycare? What do you want for your children? Who takes care of Daddy? Do you want to be married? Who will take care of your husband?

We don’t answer the questions for her, but we try and get her to think about those things, because we KNOW she’ll be told by popular culture that babies should be institutionalized, husbands should do all the housework and she should go ahead and do whatever the fuck she wants.

Recipe for happiness. Yeah, no.

It’s interesting to see my son listen carefully to these kinds of conversations, too. He is only six, and he tends to be much more impressed with all the single guys who tell my husband “I want a wife like yours”.

We are careful to surround ourselves with people who share our values, but we also know we live in a culture that encourages girls to think they are better than boys and that their needs should always come first as a matter or principle. It’s terrible. Hey Beyonce? Girls DO NOT run the world. Look the fuck around. Most of the world is run by men, for better or worse.

Women would rather buy scented candles and ride the carousel than do anything of any real value. At the end of the day, the best thing a woman can contribute to the world is stable, loving, kind, generous children who understand the meaning of responsibility and obligation.

But they are doing neither. They don’t lead businesses, countries, armies, communities, organizations (not in any meaningful number, anyways. There are tokens, but on the whole men lead).

And they don’t raise their own families.

Oh wait. I forgot. If women ran the world, we would all eat cupcakes and have group hugs. It’s the evil men who are keeping us from all that frosting. If only men would just die. We could be back in the fucking stone age in one generation.

/sarcasm/

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Rebel July 22, 2012 at 10:09

“I would be interested to know if anyone can see a silver lining in the nihilism between the sexes that is the outcome of extreme hatred and repression directed at men.”

I always say that there are two sides to a coin.

The silver lining could be that with men’s reluctance to procreate, we may expect a general decrease in world population. We are beginning to see that in some countries. The ever increasing human population is a threat that we must take seriously. For instance, when I was born, there were two billion people on earth Vs today’s seven billions.
In a lifetime, it has more than tripled. Wrong way!

Another silver lining might be men’s increasing independance from the shackles of unlimited responsibilities. We may even see the day when men will be exempt from going to combat.

Another one? Misandry cannot last forever. Eventually, even women will grow tired of the same old song. But when misandry will be over and done, men, collectively speaking, will have learned (hopefully) that their “power” is an illusion and has always been. A very hard but most important lesson to learn. Up to a point, you may even consider misandry as some kind of investment for future generations. Nothing gets lost, nothing gets created.

Another silver lining?
More and more men have stopped caring about the all-pervasive misandry. It has become a part of the landscape. So, with time, the “weapon” is becoming dull and stops having an effect. The silver lining here is that men are becoming more and more free and are decreasing their efforts to please women and society in general. Less work, less stress since men stop caring. This transfers the burden on women’s shoulders and makes life a lot easier for men.

Personally, misandry no longer bothers me, really. I just shrug it off. So, it has little or no effect on me: I just don’t care. It’s all a state of mind. A passing fad. What I have gained? I feel I no longer need to practice chivalry. I leave women to their own designs. It gives me added freedom.

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LongLostFriend July 22, 2012 at 10:39

I am the father of two daughters currently in elementary school. I want them to value an education. I also want them to internalize that advanced degrees will have absolutely no positive impact their marriageable status.

Ideally, my daughters will marry good men while relatively young (I would be delighted if both of them were well-wed by age 20) and pursue any education they desire as wives rather than as single women. An education in the context of married life, with a shared “life trajectory” with their husbands, is far superior to setting out on one’s own and expecting to find men willing to fit themselves into their lives once my daughters have reached the end of their youth.

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Migu July 22, 2012 at 10:45

Rebel

Population control is a death cult. Malthus sir, Malthus. This world is not even at 1/2 capacity as it regards human sustainability. Envy is the only thing that stops procreation.

It is hidden in many forms, population control dogma is but one.

All due respect Rebel, but you are wrong as it regards sustainability. This planet has room for 1,000,000,000 people with wilderness to spare.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 27 Thumb down 27
walking in hell July 22, 2012 at 11:11

@Thos.

That is a sad piece. Those guys gave their lives to women who probably did not give a rat’s ass about them and would have traded them up for a few cents extra.

Also note the propaganda effect that piece will have on other would-be white knights.

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walking in hell July 22, 2012 at 11:16

@rebel

“That’s why I never try to convince any man to stand up for himself: none of them wants that. That is the extent of the feminization of men.”

You also have to be careful that if the man is already married and has children, and you convince him to stand up for himself, he could end up being divorced and destroyed; in a much worse position.

That is what happened to me. Do gooders who did not know the divorce laws convinced me that I had “rights.” I am now financially destitute, my career is destroyed, and I have not seen my son in seven years.

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ForsakenShinigami July 22, 2012 at 11:26

Off-topic but worth mentioning

Three heroes died in Aurora taking bullets for their girlfriends
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395#ixzz21NRqgiAU

Read the comments, it is an endless parade of: “this is what real men are supposed to do”

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GS Jockey July 22, 2012 at 11:41

@ Zorro: “All-boys schools are the answer for boys.”

I agree, with a caveat: boys have to also be taught the true nature of women, by their dads, uncles, whomever. Otherwise, it’s all for naught.

In my case, I was lucky enough to receive a truly outstanding education at an all-boys Catholic high school in Mississippi. My graduating class of nearly thirty years ago is just LOADED with doctors, successful businessmen, you name it. And invariably outstanding and productive citizens all. No doubt, i was lucky to sent through such an excellent private school. But I discovered one glaring weakness–I and the other boys were all taught to pedestalize women; “sugar-and-spice” and all that nonsense. Now, two divorces later (despite zero misconduct on my part) I know better. But it was an expensive life lesson; too bad I had to learn it on my own.

GS Jockey

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Attila July 22, 2012 at 12:59

Fathers of daughters cannot be reliable partners due to a conflict of interest – Mangina Central.

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Rebel July 22, 2012 at 13:01

@Walking in hell.

I understand your grief. I can imagine, to some extent, the pains you have and still are going through.
No wonder you took that screen name.

I wish I could find the words to alleviate you pain: all I can say is that I feel for you. Maybe there is hope for you: when your son is old enough, you may just find him and establish a new and true relationship with him.
You have certainly a good number of years ahead of you, so there is still time to “mend” the wrong that has been done to you.

That’s my wish fo you. Hang on, bro. Have courage.

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universe July 22, 2012 at 13:14

To “Fathers of Daughters”.
– So, dads, for the sake of an image, you’re OK with throwing your own sons under the bus ?

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Bob July 22, 2012 at 14:01

«the guys subordinate their desires – and judgment – to keep their wives happy. »
This is what they call commitement… An unidirectional and unconditional surrender to Her. Wellcome to Mariage 2.0

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Keyster July 22, 2012 at 14:15

I don’t think many people have realized how deeply and fundamentally social values have changed – while they have been fighting those social changes tooth and nail. But, changed they have.

So true.
It’s never them personally, it’s always somebody else, somewhere else, the rest of America. As soon as women marched into the workforce, to be independent of a “man” – she became an advantaged competitor, and no longer a partner.

Don’t think this competition for the best grades, the best degrees, the best jobs, raises and promotions hasn’t translated into male/female relations. Not only is she held to a lower standard in performance and competence, but it’s simply humiliatng for men to have to compete with women…on this already tilted playing field.

We have a perfect storm brewing of women working, men not, and each one rejecting marriage. In case no one noticed the Feminists started the gender war, and they won. Present day we live with the spiraling consequences; societal decline. Upon the collapse women will be the victims, AGAIN. The survivors will be men with only their own self-interest in mind. The last remnants of white-knightery will struggle to protect and provide, but will be ill-equipped to handle the guilt of failing.

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continent July 22, 2012 at 15:02

@ Walking in Hell,
Despite your stunning handle you write very wise observations. What do you think sons of fathers who were killed in a war and never really knew their dad?
The writer of the article creates interesting dialogue about future of men in feminist dominated world. Single sex education has been ruled unconstitutional in government schools. But they exempt all-women colleges despite the SC ruling :
http://www.enotes.com/mississippi-university-women-v-hogan-reference/mississippi-university-women-v-hogan also they are exempt from Title IX.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0
Anon July 22, 2012 at 15:34

What would it be like if an entire country was run by women? See this amazing (TechCrunch!) article that asserts that India is organized by Feminine Energy.

“At times is seems like nothing here works efficiently or even in a conceivable manner. If one boat takes you across the river, it will not take you back. A different boat takes you in the opposite direction. Public transportation will not arrive on time. Electricity will work when it feels like it. If it says that a road leads to one place, it does not contradict the fact that if you take it you will get to a completely different place.”

http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/22/startup-life-in-indias-organized-chaos/

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djc July 22, 2012 at 15:44

I’m with Rebel. I just don’t care anymore. Feminism wound up freeing men way more than it did women.

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Rebel July 22, 2012 at 15:50

Attila July 22, 2012 at 12:59

Fathers of daughters cannot be reliable partners due to a conflict of interest – Mangina Central.

I have two brothers-in-law.

One has two daughters and two grand daughters. He is what I call the ultimate floormat. He shows his deep dislike for all that is masculine.
His wife treats him like the floormat that he is.

The other one has two daughters and one son. He worships his daughters but is in deep conflict with his son. He once said that his purpose in life is to serve women. He despises men with a passion.
He is another ultimate floormat with absolutely no backbone.
His wife has got his testicles in her purse where they feel warm and secure….

This type is quite common here.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0
scatmaster July 22, 2012 at 16:29

Feminism wound up freeing men way more than it did women.

Wish I had realized that before I became enslaved.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
imnobody July 22, 2012 at 17:16

@Rebel

Most American men want their wife playing the role of mommy so they are fine with their wife having all the control so they can be the “boy of the house” again. Then, daughters play the role of platonic love.

This dynamics was already notice by Jung in the early XX century. The history of feminism cannot be understood without it.

As Carl Jung said it in 1912:

the women [in America] are the mothers of their husbands as well as of their children, yet at the same time there is in them the old, old primitive desire to be possessed, to yield, to surrender. And there is nothing in the man for her to surrender to except his kindness, his courtesy, his generosity, his chivalry.

And see also

I noticed that whenever the American husband spoke to his wife there was always a little melancholy note in his voice, as though he were not quite free: as though he were a boy talking to an older woman. he was always very polite and very kind, and paid her every respect. You could see that in her eyes he was not at all dangerous, and that she was not afraid of being mastered by him.

(See http://www.welmer.org/2009/08/13/carl-jung-founding-father-of-game/ for more)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1
Morrisfactor July 22, 2012 at 17:47

djc-

Has feminism really freed up men? Even if you don’t get married and go your own way, you’ll be paying a pretty big chunk of your income for women in the form of taxes, both open and hidden.

Males pay two thirds of Social Security and Medicare funding, yet the average man draws the benefits for five years less than females.

We will soon be paying the majority of Obamacare, as the law makes it illegal to charge women more than men (even though they use doctors much more), thus we will be subsidizing women yet again.

The student loan fiasco is over one trillion dollars, and the majority of that belongs to females, many will never be able to pay it off or will expect their husbands to do so. If they don’t pay it, then once again, males will be subsidizing them via tax dollars.

Male tax dollars continue to flow to strictly feminist money pits like VAWA, “Take Back the Night”, rape centers, women’s shelters, etc, not to mention funding women’s money losing sports at college level.

Despite a close proximity in wage earning these days, men still pay 97% of all alimony and the lion’s share of child support.

In addition to having our pockets picked by women, feminism has successfully turned males into “rapists or child molesters or deadbeats or video game addicts”, so males nowadays are considered some sort of lower life form.

On the work front, males live in continual fear of saying something wrong or inappropriate that might get them axed. They watch as women get promoted over them just because 80% of HR are female.

I don’t really see how feminism has freed men at all, just separated us from our families and forced us to lower our heads as women walk by.

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Antifeminist One July 22, 2012 at 17:54

Sorry, I figured it went without saying in my original post, but wanted to clarify just in case of any confusion.

Despite the particulars of my situation, I absolutely hold authority in my house and my partner wouldn’t have it any other way.

In fact, if I defer too much to her, I can spidey-sense the tingles fading.

That’s one thing I learned from game.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4
codebuster July 22, 2012 at 18:31

The solution? Get rid of gubmint intervention with regards to biases in education and the workplace:
1) Get rid of affirmative action. Dump it. It is sexist to the core and violates constitutional rights. Let the free market decide;
2) Get rid of the biasing of education towards “facilitative” and “nurturing” methods (or in whatever ways it is that the education system is biased to favor girls and hold boys back) and re-introduced impartial competition and merit.

There. The rest will pretty much take care of itself. Women with degrees in women’s basket weaving and carburettor decoration for women will be out of a job, and back to their traditional roles of being provided for quicker than you can say “get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich”.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1
freebird July 22, 2012 at 19:32

Just saw another TV ad about DV.
Claims every 15 seconds a woman is assaulted by her husband or boyfriend.
The woman in the ad picks up the phone and dials 911,and says “I want a restraining order against my husband.”

Women are constantly bombarded by these messages from the media,and it’s a great excuse to cry havoc and let loose the dogs of hypergamy.
Cash and prizes ensue for her,jail and destitution for him.
The supremacists are doubling and tripling down,no “fathers Daughter” is going to stay married long with a climate like that.Perhaps just long enough to hatch out an annuity.(From a wealthy man)

Men are mere cannon fodder and walking ATM’s for the VAWA State.
We’ve3 lost because men are not herd animals like women and will never show enough solidarity to break the misandry.

Instead we will fight tooth and nail for access to the nearest gash,like bonobo’s.

Welcome to the jungle.

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TiredGuy July 22, 2012 at 19:52

“Take a look at the Mosuo tribe in China and… contemplate the future.”

Other chinese ethnic groups managed to, in each their own way, construct the trappings of civilisation – roads, sanitation, astrology, a postal service, etc in ancient times, and yet the Mosuo only manage to eek out a hand to mouth existence until now….

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Antifeminist One July 22, 2012 at 20:26

@ Andie

Beauty in its simplicity. Only the family can have it all.

Also,

To those men or women who thank feminism for freeing them, beware. For good or bad, it’s freedom from what holds society together.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1
Nah July 22, 2012 at 20:51

You are forgetting that education doesn’t matter for women. Hotness does. If his daughters are good looking, then they will get a man regardless of their “too high” education level. If his daughters are beasts, then they’ll be spinsters — but it wasn’t the education that did it, it was their lack of looks, so they might as well be well-educated spinsters.

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Gamerp4 July 22, 2012 at 23:40

“The women of that generation may be able to marry down, but few will want to. They may not marry at all and become wards of the state when they bear bastard children.”

Already half of the generation has seen this, there are more hags than fags, In black community we are already seeing the wave of single mothers who are furious everyday of how they are suffering from the faults of MEN (You see they dont see themselves as the problem while they were the one who DIDN’T HAVE THE FREE BIRTH CONTROL and OPENED THEIR LEGS FOR A SLOPPY TIME), the ratio of single mothers has reached such heights that to contain them we might have to shift them to another planet or to a deserted island where NO MEN be seen.

Well i know that is impossible and we cannot contain or stop them if we did try we would be seen as WOMEN HATER by OPRAH’s own WORDS where she praises the single mother as heroic (I see opening up your legs and producing bastard childs is heroism, WELL SUPERMAN and BATMAN you can go to hell, AMERICA got millions of heros themselves). Stupidity and idiocy has no name or organization but it seems “Times are changing”, we do have stupidity and idiocy in an organization LOOK NO FURTHER BUT LIBERALISM AND FEMINISM for that.

But last a woman who is a lawyer or a business woman wont MARRY DOWN to a plumber or a garbage man, she would probably have artificial insemination and if she does well I WOULD ADVICE THAT MAN TO DIVORCE HER AFTER PRODUCING KIDS WITH HER because then he can have half her fortune in divorce :D well thats a payback but I am seeing a different future, where MEN WILL BE THE GOLD DIGGERS and then these “empowered” “independent” “strong” women would know what feminism is.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0
BHWebb July 23, 2012 at 01:18

It seems that this father’s comments are indicative of the mindset of too many fathers with daughters, which also shares a common trait with feminists in that they (both) can’t or, more acurately, “refuse” to see the forest for the trees.

This father says he’s glad that things are not the way they used to be, but neglects the fact that the gains of women/girls in our society has come at an enormous price as these advancements have come at the expense of men/boys. Thus, placing many woman in the precarious position of reaching spinsterhood way too young.

Unfortunately, this mindset is the bi-product of decades of feminst social enineering. There is no need to consider the responsibilities or consequences that comes with the choices women make. Problem is, this philosophy comes in stark contrast to reality and many women are paying for it.

The issue of “suitable mates” shares similarities with other social issues such as DV or rape for example as they are generally viewed exclusively from the perspective of women. While writers bemoan the fact that women cannot find suitable mates and feel the best solution is shame men into “manning up”, they too, fail to see the forest for the trees. Isn’t it possible that “educated” women cannot find suitable mates because men do not find them to be suitable?

Things have changed…men are wising up. Men (well, many of them) realize that they inherit all the risk in marriage. Especially when that marriage ends in divorce and ESPECIALLY if it involves children. Many men realize that institutionalized bias will happily step in and screw them regardless of whether the woman wants to etc, etc, etc. Not to mention the scores of men who have grown up in the era of no-fault divorce who watched their parents’ marriage disintegrate before their very eyes only to see their own fathers forced out of the picture.

With all that and more going against men, it is easy to understand why marriage is not an option. And, that is not even touching on the choices of young women to pursue an education and career.

Feminism has created one hell of a mess, and women are starting to reap what the movement sewed.

Anyone who says that women could not possibly fuck things up as bad as men…well, we know that is not true.

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walking in hell July 23, 2012 at 03:20

“Despite your stunning handle you write very wise observations. What do you think sons of fathers who were killed in a war and never really knew their dad?”

Thanks.

The handle fits because I feel very bad day after day and I seem to be getting worse the last few months. After seven years, I have not bee able to recover from divorce. I have not been able to find a new self-identity and divorce has left me emotionally and financially ruined.

The last thing I want to be doing is writing about something horrible that happened to me and my son.

Once I was a very productive guy who played music, sailed, taught, managed and developed cutting-edge software projects. I had a great job, and offered lots of love and guidance to my little son.

It is bad enough to lose your family, but try losing your family and then having people criminalize you, financially ruin you, destroy your career, and destroy your relationship with your son. Now I have a hole in my stomach and in my soul and very little energy and strength; I have no ambition or joy. The future is dark; very dark.

Yesterday, an acquaintance of mine was looking at some old photos of me from eight years ago, and she remarked at how different my eyes looked. She said I used to look happy and fulfilled and now I look hollow and sad.

All the natural energy that is released when a man is inspired by taking care of a family he loves, is destroyed when your family is stripped away from you. After losing your family, it is very difficult to find a reason to exist. Yet, if you don’t “man up” and pay money that you can’t afford, you are incarcerated, stripped of your passport, stripped of your drivers license, your credit is damaged, etc. What happens to American men and children in divorce courts is sick, immoral, and criminal.

The only positive thing that came from my experience is my awareness of just how rotten men have it in America and most of the Western countries. I knew there was a bias against men; but I did not know there was outright hatred and contempt against men. Life for men in America is a minefield with an explosion waiting to happen.

America is now the bastard capital of the world with over 20% single mother households compared with around 15% for the other industrialized countries. That equates to 11.5 million single mothers in America. America leads the world in single mother households and in male incarceration which are two statistics that bode evil for men in America.

As far as sons who have lost their fathers to war, I think there will always be a void in the son’s soul. He will always be asking questions to those who knew his father; he will always be curious about his father. He might even be expected to follow his father’s career path. I think the son will be sad. He will have a longing that will never be fulfilled. He will feel like half a man, and often overcompensate. Without proper guidance, he will get into drugs and alcohol and possibly be an underachiever.

With proper guidance, he can recover and live a normal life. But he will always be sad about the father-son relationship that could have been, but never was.

Fathers add so much to a children’s life. A father’s presence and support makes or breaks what a child thinks of himself, and what a child is able to achieve. Only in modern times have we seen the depravity of bastardization, caused by family courts and rotten women on such a massive scale. I don’t want to pessimistic, but I think the war against men is only getting started in America.

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walking in hell July 23, 2012 at 04:32

@Walking in hell.

“That’s my wish fo you. Hang on, bro. Have courage.”

Thank you. That is very kind of you. I am trying to hang in there as best as I can.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
DruidV July 23, 2012 at 05:39

Way back in prehistoric times, say around 1985, I used to find myself very depressed when I would take note of all the foolish and desperate males I knew, who were jumping through impossible hoops for fickle females that just would let the poor bastards continue to keep right on jumping through those hoops, apparently just for their own entertainment. These twats seemed to take an almost sociopathic delight in this ‘sport’. The males were simply trying to be accepted.
Pathetic, really.

Nowadays, I look about and see that young males are sick, tired, disgusted and jaded with these soulless cunts. Make no mistake, the hoops are still there, firmly in place for the males to jump through, but they are seeing less and less traffic every day.

I for one can easily see the females of generation z growing old alone, but for their cats and dying that way too and from what I’ve seen, these bitches can forget about marrying up, or even across anymore. These asshole entitlement whores won’t even be marrying down, in the not too distant future.

YAY!!!

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 1
Andie July 23, 2012 at 06:16

@Walking in Hell

My mother did to us what your wife did to you and your family. She poisoned our minds against our father, flat out lied about financial support (told us he walked away and left us to starve) and pretty much ruined our later childhood. I was 11 when the divorce went down, and my brothers were 8, 10 and 14.

The pain of losing our father was unbearable, and my mother encouraged us to turn that pain into anger.

But time passed and we grew up and my dad was there, waiting. He never gave up on us. He waited and watched and when the time was right, he came back to us.

I was stunned to see the tax returns he had carefully kept to show that he had never missed a payment. He had Christmas and birthday cards, all returned without us ever seeing them.

My mother tried to teach me that money was the only important thing. That marriage was a trap. That children were a mistake (thanks, mom). That men could not be trusted. I went to university and took a degree in Completely Useless and then my dad came back and the realization of what my mother had done really sunk in.

My dad saved me. When I felt the force of his love and loyalty across all those years, I knew that my mother had done something unspeakably cruel and awful. I stopped fighting my strong desire for a husband and family and home: I embraced it. My mother is an evil woman. I have not spoken to her for more than ten years. I will never forgive her.

Please know that no matter how hopeless things seem now, time will teach your son. He will not be a little boy forever, and when his eyes open, he will see that you have been there. Let him feel the force of your love. Despite losing my dad in childhood, he is the one who walks with me through life now. He has my children to love and cherish. My husband is his son in spirit. My mother stole him from me as a child, but he is here with me now.

And life is long.

Hang in there. Never forgive. But never forget, either. Your little guy will come back to you.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 2
Keyster July 23, 2012 at 07:56

I have not been able to find a new self-identity and divorce has left me emotionally and financially ruined.

This season on Ice Road Truckers one of the new guys, Darryl, talks about working hard to help his son. “I don’t want him to end up like me; do all the right things to build a family, come home one day and it’s all gone.”

Remember “Walking”, you’re far from alone out there.
Perhaps you should seek out a divorced fathers support group.
It’s OK to ask for help.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1
beta_plus July 23, 2012 at 08:12

This is why if you have daughters you must move heaven and earth to get them into a top ranked rural university, preferably Dartmouth or Cornell, and make sure that they know how to wisely earn their MRS along with their BS.

Send your sons to a third-tier state school that is majority female and make them major in Mechanical Engineering or Computer Science. They’ll thank you later.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
Rebel July 23, 2012 at 08:36

Migu July 22, 2012 at 10:45
All due respect Rebel, but you are wrong as it regards sustainability. This planet has room for 1,000,000,000 people with wilderness to spare.”

You are taling in terms of worldwide patriarchy.
Patriarchy is what allowed this world to become populated as it is.
But matriarchies work differently: everything is approximate and subject to a change in mood, according to circumstances.
In a matriarchy there is no planning, no vision of the future and certainly no provision for future hurtful events.

In other words, matriarchs just “wang it!”.

There is no way that 7+ billions can be maintained alive under matriarchy. And the will is probably lacking as well.

Under matriarchy, everything will run smootly until…. the machines need an oil change. Matriarchy is total chaos or , at the least, stagnation, depending on men’s willingness to fix things.

We must remember that everything that exists (for all intents and purposes) was created, designed, built, imagined and turned into reality.. by men.(refer to Rich Zubaty). Women have not contributed an iota in the establishment of civilizations. They have been the consumers, not the producers.

Without the control exercised by men, all that has been built and created will fall, just like the ruins of the Roman empire.

That is why I said that in the future matriarcal society, the number of humans inhabiting this planet will plummet down because the earth will not produce enough food, which is the result of men’s labor.

And in the end, it really doesn’t matter, or does it?
Civilization is the result of men’s work in order to please women. But women are not pleased. And what could possibly please them?
I wonder.

So, women ar wrestling “power” from the hands of men. And men, still trying to please women, let them seize power.

Amen.

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Migu July 23, 2012 at 08:45

Walking in Hell,

What andie said,

We all stuck with Dad in the end. First me, followed by my younger siblings.

The words you put on the screen are the words my father told me 17 years ago. The worm will turn. Just keep telling guys what you know. It takes time sir, it takes time.

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zed July 23, 2012 at 09:11

The only positive thing that came from my experience is my awareness of just how rotten men have it in America and most of the Western countries. I knew there was a bias against men; but I did not know there was outright hatred and contempt against men.

That is some pretty expensive awareness you have bought there.

Thinking back in time – say maybe about 10 years – can you think of anything someone might have done to help you become aware without having to spend as much for it as you ended up having to?

I ask this because my compassion for stories like this has worn a bit thin – after years of trying to make men aware and running into an absolutely impenetrable stone wall of denial, and being told by those men that I was only saying such things because I was a bitter loser who couldn’t get laid as often and well as they did.

Since I was never successful in making them aware, I eventually decided to let the family courts convince them for me. The courts have a way of impressing the lesson on men in ways that they just cannot forget.

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Darryl X July 23, 2012 at 09:46

@ keyster -

“Perhaps you should seek out a divorced fathers support group.
It’s OK to ask for help.”

Interesting perspective (I am not the same “Darryl” referred to in your post BTW – LOL).

I once sought out a support group for alienated parents. Even though almost all alienated parents are fathers, the only support groups I was able to find were comprised 100% of women. Women who even though they initiated divorce, in many instances were committing adultery (and still are probably), had full legal and physical custody of the children, collected vast amounts of child support and denied the fathers any meaningful access to their own children, still believed that they were the victims of parental alienation. I was astonished. Never under estimate a woman’s capacity to believe that despite the contrary facts she is the victim. I am not aware of any “divorced fathers” groups any more than I am aware of any real parental (paternal) alienation groups. I would not be surprised given the dispropotion of women comprising parental (paternal) alienation groups that any divorced fathers groups would be comprised entirely of women. And I don’t write this as sarcasm.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0
freebird July 23, 2012 at 09:51

“And life is long.

Hang in there. Never forgive. But never forget, either. Your little guy will come back to you.”

Frankly that’s not good enough.
To tell a guy to wait,beyond the formative years is to leave him with a stranger he did not raise.

A stranger who not only did not assimilate his values,work ethic,or moral fiber,but whom has a lot of negative baggage that must be unlearned before he can begin to learn.
Effectively putting this young man 40 years behind the curve,a bit late.

And the extra effort for a man to “adopt” this stranger back to him,and set him right after the fact is a tremendous task not many can succeed at.

Emotional and intellectual cuckholding at far worse than genetic cockholding in that regard.

Why should any man have to sacrifice so much?
I’ve never had kids,it seems too much to ask to me,but for those with kids, I guess since you’re paying the bills for 18+ yrs you may as well try to salvage something out of the deal.

A real son is one who was raised in the image of his father,not in the image of a rabid feminist.
Now, a “real son” could be had after the fact,but the wait is a life force killer,and certainly puts the son at a disadvantage never seen before upon this earth,pre-fem scruge.

Couple that with the misandrist school system,and the likely result is a son or daughter whom is worse than a casual acquaintance.

Couple that with the societal demonization of men,and the logical and prevalent attitude it that men are mere wallets.
Their sons fodder for the next go-round.
As long as women have custody,there is little hope of the majority of them being salvaged,most are selfish beyond the middle age,and only reconcile just before pops dies.(Seemingly for emo rational,but really for the cash)

Bad enough to have pops reduced to a wallet by his wife and society,but to have his offspring do it too,I have seen it so often.

Take my cousins 16 yr old daughter by his first wife:She’s got it all,all the designer jeans and latest smart phones,and dad is just a fool who buys these things for her,because she has so much power,and mocks men for sport.

Sad to see such ugliness in such a gorgeous package.
She’s blood,family,but has internalized
the ideologies that will break bond.

I certainly will not recognize her familial status until she’s old enough to act the part,most likely,once again,in her middle age.

That is too little too late.
Would blame no man for cutting and running.Would also not blame a man for holding hope for hope’s sake either.
But what a sick and losing game to play.

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Migu July 23, 2012 at 09:51

Rebel,

I see what you mean now. I got ya sir.

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Anonymous age 70 July 23, 2012 at 09:52

Thanks, Andie, that is what many of us experienced.

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GS Jockey July 23, 2012 at 10:09

@ Walking in Hell: “The handle fits because I feel very bad day after day and I seem to be getting worse the last few months. After seven years, I have not bee able to recover from divorce.”

First of all, know this: I feel you. I don’t presume to think I have walked in your shoes. You have had a shitty deal. I get it.

But you have to take this on board too: at some point you have got to acknowledge that you (ONLY you) can be responsible for your own happiness.

Ok, there it is.

I wish you peace.

GS Jockey

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Pops July 23, 2012 at 10:10

Good read. And on an off topic note, notice how an unselfish, white knight sits at a movie alone while the self centered one has the woman, kids and an accepted marriage proposal:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/jarell-brooks-aurora-hero_n_1690579.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/patricia-legarreta-accepts-proposal-from-man-who-left-her-aurora-theater

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Darryl X July 23, 2012 at 10:12

Concerning posts in this thread about children growing up and wanting to know their REAL fathers, I have some thoughts.

First, I have been told over and over that step-dads make great fathers. (This concept was actually reinforced recently at my church.) My experience concerning this claim is that it is not true completely and utterly. I am aware of no instances in which a man who is committing adultery with a mother and who is enabling her to steal financial resources from her ex (and benefitting directly from those resources himself) and is enabling her addiction to sex and power and control makes a better father than the REAL father. I suspect that in very few instances is the adultering thieving step-father not a worse character than the REAL father. I suspect that in most instances, the REAL father is the much better father and likely the much better parent. Certainly he is a better father than the mother is a mother.

Second, although it is nice to think that someday these children will “grow up” and discover that their REAL father is actually a good man or at least better than the adultering thieving step-father, so far it is not the case in almost all instances. This from interviews with many family law attorneys and social workers and children themselves. I can cite many discussions I’ve had with children who are obviously the victims of alienation by their whoring mothers and these children even into their late 20′s and 30′s are so consumed with hatred for their REAL fathers that their attitude to quote one young man, “I was raised by my STEP-father. My REAL father was never there.”

No matter what I did to reason with this one young man and many other adult children, the hatred for their REAL fathers was so indoctrinated and fundamental that the REAL father might just as well have been a serial axe-murderer. Yes, it was that bad. These children didn’t even know their REAL fathers and they HATED them. And I mean HATE!

It didn’t matter how much the fathers had tried to stay in touch with their children. As a matter of fact, it seemed that the more the REAL fathers tried to maintain a relationship with their children, the more the children hated them. And there are important psychiatric reasons for this phenomenon.

Third, the demographic to which I refer is mostly adult children who grew up before there was internet and books like Taken Into Custody by Baskerville and other important literary references and analyses like the Law and Economics of Child Support Payments by Comanor. It was before what I believe to be a critical mass of these instances had coalesced among the population (whatever population that is). So I think things are changing and I hope to see instances in which adult children are suing the hell out of their whoring mothers and adultering STEP-fathers who alienated them from their REAL fathers and maybe transferring some of the wealth and dignity back to to the REAL fathers. I dunno if this will happen in our life time or at all but it’s nice to think that it will. I know that it won’t unless we try.

At any rate, remember Malachi 4:6 – “He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

Consider us cursed.

Some versions incorrectly substitute “fathers” with “parents” but that is not correct. The correct interpretation really is “fathers” for reasons that I’m sure all of us are aware. This will happen. It just takes getting the Truth out there. We are witnesses. That is how we will turn the hearts of the children and the fathers back to one another. All of these developments have been prophecied. And remember that God works at his own schedule. It almost never happens on the scale of time we want. But it does happen. So never give up hope. But you have to BE there when it happens. You must be prepared. Which means chin-up. There’s nothing wrong with being sad. I endure profound sadness every day. But endure we must. Whatever happens, be someone of whom your children will be proud. Do not let these evil silly women win.

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Towgunner July 23, 2012 at 10:29

On the subject of single sex schooling. I actually think there is a lot to work with here. Yes, this idea will be met with hostility and push-back…what else did you expect? Regardless of whether male-only schools are achieved or not, what matters is this – by way of arguing we expose a critical weakness of the femotocracy. The argument is simple…we want male only schools. The feminist answer: you can’t that is sexists. Our answer: Then we demand the immediate closure of all girl only schools, because that is sexist. That’s it. Double standards, even in a society that masquerades as free, are un-sustainable; all you need to do is expose them.

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Darryl X July 23, 2012 at 11:00

@ freebird -

I am disappointed to concur with your entire post – freebird July 23, 2012 at 09:51

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Migu July 23, 2012 at 12:44

I ask this because my compassion for stories like this has worn a bit thin – after years of trying to make men aware and running into an absolutely impenetrable stone wall of denial, and being told by those men that I was only saying such things because I was a bitter loser who couldn’t get laid as often and well as they did.

-Zed

Right, so you walk. But you left a record. Thanks.

After 13 years of saying the same shit in a crude manner it was nice to find out I wasn’t the only bitter loser who couldn’t get laid as often and well as they did, even though I did. Your efforts are appreciated.

Since I was never successful in making them aware, I eventually decided to let the family courts convince them for me. The courts have a way of impressing the lesson on men in ways that they just cannot forget.

You were successful beyond your wildest dreams. The men my age (31) know who you are. I hear zedisms from people I’ve just met.

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Andie July 23, 2012 at 12:46

@ Freebird

Why should any man have to sacrifice so much?

Just to be clear, Freebird, I think the fact that women can do this and get away with it is simply awful. It’s a crime against humanity that so many children have had their minds poisoned, and it’s especially hard for boys, because teaching a boy to hate his father is to teach him to hate himself.

I don’t think any man should have to sacrifice so much. I agree with everything you wrote.

But the fact is that women CAN do this. Hope is the only thing Walking in Hell can do. Only hope can defeat despair. I just wanted him to know that often that hope is not misplaced. Children do grow up and see that they were made to walk in hell, too.

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W.F. Price July 23, 2012 at 12:57

You were successful beyond your wildest dreams. The men my age (31) know who you are. I hear zedisms from people I’ve just met.

-Migu

You just reminded me with that comment that I have to rebuild that widget that included the Book of Zed with a few other links. I had a scare due to some javascript on the widget (nothing to do with the BoZ) and deleted it, and haven’t made another one. Before that, the book must have been downloaded a thousand or so times.

It’s really good to hear that young men have heard of it — I like to think I helped put it out there.

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Darryl X July 23, 2012 at 14:23

@ walking in hell -

My advice: get a copy of Taken Into Custody and The Law and Economics Of Child Support Payments. And copies of some other great books relating to our completely destructive system of family law and paternal alienation and child support system (ie Save The Males). Then get PDF copies of the entire Spearhead and A Voice For Men and MENZ (New Zealand) and any other great and relevant web resource since their inception. Every article and every post to it in every thread. Organize them if you want in a way that may make sense to your children. Then if and when the day comes, give these resources to them. Maybe Price maintains a running PDF version of updates. (Oh, and after you’ve compiled all the articles and posts in the Spearhead and AVFM, give me a copy, please, so I can share it with my children.) When children realize that you are a good man and that you are not the only good man who has been completely and utterly destroyed by their ex-wife, they may understand better what happened. Certainly, you can share with them this post or this entire thread.

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zed July 23, 2012 at 18:41

I hear zedisms from people I’ve just met.

Well, Migu, I’m glad that some of my “zed droppings” have fertilized a bit of thought among younger men. ;) And maybe it is the best we can hope for that younger men watch guys like walking in hell get fed to the chipper-shredder of family courts – and come out the other side with their entire lives in pieces – and realize that even if a guy thinks he has “tight game” – maybe he doesn’t.

See, Migu, even after 40+ years of watching this hate movement called feminism do its nasty work, some men remain unaware and get their lives shredded. One one level, I ask myself “How can this be?”

Is there any way to wake a man up other than watching him get his life shredded? So if WIH waits 10-15-20 more years, maybe his son will figure out what the truth is and they will be reunited? How many guys have the internal resources to do that? How many just give up and take the Thomas Ball exit? The demands that are being put on men go way beyond being good fathers – it seems that people expect them to damn near be saints (and martyrs).

I don’t know, Migu. My question to WIH is – if we could go back 10 years in time, and say or do something to have made him aware, what would it be?

If the answer is “Nothing”, then we know why Captain Capitalism keeps saying “Enjoy the Decline.”

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Rob July 23, 2012 at 21:06

You just reminded me with that comment that I have to rebuild that widget that included the Book of Zed with a few other links. — WF Price

The Book of Zed is great material. The one problem I find though, with posting everything in PDF form, is that we refer to “The Book” rather than to the individual points, which we can link to directly for use in our online conversations.

I have republished the entire “Book of Zed” as well as Zed’s “Eye of the Mind” site, with each post separate and linkable… the intention being that we can link each concept into conversations we are having specifically.

Eye of the Mind

The Wisdom of Zenpriest

Meh! But what does he know anyway, eh?

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freebird July 24, 2012 at 03:23

“@ freebird -

I am disappointed to concur with your entire post ”

Me too buddy, it smells and tastes like shit in my mouth to read it over coffee this AM,but that’s what happens when a rot sets in.

@Andie, all cool bro,not attacking you or your posts,just a random vent that escaped.
Hope is a good thing.
Justice is better.
Real justice,where have you gone?

“I was raised by my STEP-father. My REAL father was never there.”
Yep.
Opwah said mommy was right in hating daddy.So did the church&Govt.
So went the child.

Until past middle age,when most blinders come off.The shine is off the rose so to speak.Too late for the formative years,creating a linear (stepping motor action) pattern of matriarchal influence, a bit more w/ each generation.
That’s how we got to this juncture,where freaks and villains abound,and good men
keep quiet out of fear.

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zed July 24, 2012 at 08:24

Rob,

On “the wisdom of”, #63 is linked to the same post as #62. I was curious about what I said.

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Rob July 24, 2012 at 09:30

“On “the wisdom of”, #63 is linked to the same post as #62. I was curious about what I said.”

Oops! Fixed.

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Anonymous age 70 July 24, 2012 at 10:15

I guess I am old school. Any father who has contact with his daughters and does not do his best to raise them to be wives and mothers, as is their biological nature, is guilty of child abuse.

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"The One" July 24, 2012 at 13:57

I liked the quotes from Carl Jung, but I’m irritated with “game” this and “game” that? Carl Jung was a pioneer of Psychology, not “game”.

It sounds like their favorite thing in the world was made up by Spike Lee: “He got game…” It’s irritating that some people don’t use proper grammar.

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walking in hell July 24, 2012 at 23:28

@zed

I got married around 17 years ago. So at that time there was no communities on the internet like the spearhead; there was no MGTOW. In fact, I didn’t have internet until a few years after I was married.

I think what would have made the difference is being able to read some true horror stories by other men. My biggest fears at that time were not having enough money to provide all the advantages a parent should be able to provide. I had no idea you could be completely stripped of your children, made financially destitute, and criminalized, even though you were a good father.

I thought that there was some kind of fairness or justice in the system; I did not realize that the system was anti-justice: basically a kangaroo court, getting funding from the federal government for every family they destroyed. I did not know they extent of the divorce industry and its insatiable greed of lawyers. And or course, I never thought my saintly wife, would morph into the monster she became.

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walking in hell July 25, 2012 at 00:59

@freebird
@daryl x
@andi

“Frankly that’s not good enough.
To tell a guy to wait,beyond the formative years is to leave him with a stranger he did not raise.”

Agreed. The system expects men to be that “heroic” dad that hangs in there through the darkest times, complete with all the slogans like “never give up,” etc.

The reality is this:
1) neither father and child can ever get the time back that was lost.
2) in the past, the father took all the blame for being “absent.”
3) there will be permanent damage to the child and the father.

That being said, the internet is a sharing resource.

1) From what I am seeing on the internet, there is a real shift in public awareness and opinion regarding single mothers, and how single mothers became single mothers. The public are not so square in the single mother’s corner anymore. I say this by the number of “for” and “against” comments I read on articles.

2) I am seeing a shift in public opinion against family courts.

3) I am seeing a shift in public opinion for shared custody.

Though public opinion is changing, the institutions are not. And of course, no woman could ever be expected to admit she destroyed her child’s potential by batardizing him.


In the event that I get any face time with my son, my story to him will be this:

You were bastardized by your mother and the family courts. If you don’t believe me, read these resources:

Taken into custody.
The spearhead.
etc.

Also read about how fathers and men are abused in America, but are treated much better in other countries. It just so happens you were born into a country that despises you because of your gender. It also just happens you were born into a country where marriage and family are a scourge, and not a blessing.

All the anger and inadequacy and loss you feel, were caused by your mother and the family courts removing me, your father, from your life (your bastardization). Things could have been much better for you if it were not for the evil behavior of these two forces.

The reality is that I was removed from you by evil forces and the false claim was made that I abandoned you. How you deal with this is up to you; I am here for you, but I will not take the blame for a crime against you that I did not commit.

The treatment of men and children in the American family courts violates all natural law and the tenants of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Therefore, anyone engaging in the family courts, is engaging in something unnatural, unholy, evil, and satanic. Just because society condones it, does not make it right.


If public opinion continues to change, the truth will eventually win. But what my son’s mother and the courts did to me and him will always be a tragedy and a crime.

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walking in hell2 July 25, 2012 at 07:05

@freebird
@daryl x
@andi

“Frankly that’s not good enough.
To tell a guy to wait,beyond the formative years is to leave him with a stranger he did not raise.”

Agreed. The system expects men to be that “heroic” dad that hangs in there through the darkest times, complete with all the slogans like “never give up,” etc.

The reality is this:
1) Neither father and child can ever get the time back that was lost.
2) In the past, the father took all the blame for being “absent.”
3) There will be permanent damage to the child and the father.

That being said, the internet is a sharing resource.

1) From what I am seeing on the internet, there is a real shift in public awareness and opinion regarding single mothers, and how single mothers became single mothers. The public are not so square in the single mother’s corner anymore. I say this by the number of “for” and “against” comments I read on articles.

2) I am seeing a shift in public opinion against family courts.

3) I am seeing a shift in public opinion for shared custody.

Though public opinion is changing, the institutions are not. And of course, no woman could ever be expected to admit she destroyed her child’s potential by bastardizing him.


In the event that I get any face time with my son, my story to him will be something like this:

You were bastardized by your mother and the family courts. If you don’t believe me, read these resources:

Taken into custody.
The spearhead.
etc.

Also read about how fathers and men are abused in America, but are treated much better in other countries. It just so happens you were born into a country that despises you because of your gender. It also happens you were born into a country where marriage and family are treated as a scourge, and not a blessing.

All the anger and inadequacy and loss you feel, were caused by your mother and the family courts removing me, your father, from your life (your bastardization). Things could have been much better for you if it were not for these two evil forces.

The reality is that I was removed from you by evil forces and the false claim was made that I abandoned you. How you deal with this is up to you; I am here for you, but I will not take the blame for a crime against you that I did not commit.

The treatment of men and children in the American family courts violates all natural law and the tenants of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Therefore, anyone engaging in the family courts, is engaging in something unnatural, unholy, evil, and satanic. Just because society condones it, does not make it right.


If public opinion continues to change, the truth will eventually win. But what my son’s mother and the courts did to me and him will always be a tragedy and a crime.

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Migu July 25, 2012 at 09:02

I don’t know, Migu. My question to WIH is – if we could go back 10 years in time, and say or do something to have made him aware, what would it be? -Zed

Nothing.

I lived through it. My father got custody of me. Mom tried to starve me into her new household with the courts. It didn’t work, I just went to work washing dishes.

I was caught in the middle of the 90′s divorce disaster. I was old enough to understand the injustice I guess. Same thing happened to many of my peers.

Lets take my brother (27) He says he won’t let it happen to him, and he hasn’t yet, but yeah I’m a bitter loser in his eyes, and Mom has him paying rent on a place that she is going to “give” to him later.

My cousins figured it out, after they begot two bastards apiece with different women, and now have to work at underground mines to pay them off, or you know take up residence in a state pen somewhere.

What can you say to head it off? Nothing, just point to guys like Walking in Hell and my own Father and say. “That will be you.”

I stood by my Dad. I love him. He got rooked, but he’s the greatest man alive as far as I’m concerned. He fought and won (After 15 years). Plenty of scars from that war.

The rest of us went with dad too, even if they refuse to believe it can’t happen to them. I was 13 when it happened, I made sure the children got to choose who they live with at 13. (Long story, I wrote the divorce decree for him at 13)

Everyone chose Dad in the end.

There is nothing you can really say, you just point out the facts.

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zed July 25, 2012 at 12:43

WIH:
I got married around 17 years ago. So at that time there was no communities on the internet like the spearhead; there was no MGTOW.

I think what would have made the difference is being able to read some true horror stories by other men. My biggest fears at that time were not having enough money to provide all the advantages a parent should be able to provide. I had no idea you could be completely stripped of your children, made financially destitute, and criminalized, even though you were a good father.

Like a lamb to the slaughter, as the saying goes.

Perhaps the Internet will give men some leverage – now that we have an alternative to the Lame-Stream-Media propaganda machine. The criminalization of men had been going on about 25 years by the time you got married, but in order to see it a man had to not be totally suspicious of other men, and willing to think the worst of them.

Then, as now, the White Knights blamed men for all the evil that women do. To steal a line from Anonymous Age 70 – when a man got eviscerated by his wife, a lot of men puffed up their chests and claimed –
“Well, that will never happen to me, because my wife is married to the GREAT AND WONDERFUL MEEEEEEE!”

I can’t tell you the number of times I heard this from men – often just a few months before the divorce papers arrived.

Today I still hear the same message, only it is presented as –
“Well, that will never happen to me, because I HAVE TIGHT GAME.

Until we face the unpleasant fact that there are a lot of men out there who absolutely hate other men, and look for every chance to do them a dirt, I suspect that a lot more guys are going to get blind-sided – as you did.

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kendoka July 25, 2012 at 20:21

I question the popular wisdom of fathers relinquishing custody and authority over their 18 year old daughters by putting them through an institution designed to indoctrinate and create entitled promiscuous feminist careerist harpies and not loving wives and mothers through marriage.

A Father’s work is not complete until he has guided his daughter directly into marriage with his authority transfered to her husband. “Careers” can wait. Family cannot.

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Gay State Girl July 27, 2012 at 16:28

I’m a fairly traditional minded female engineering student, I do intend to pursue post doc education, but am annoyed with those who try to politicize it as most of the women my generation are not really interested in the feminist aspect of it.

@codebuster

Regarding women and domesticity
That was all fine and well in pre-industrialized societies, in which women had a host of other domestic chores to keep them occupied. But household appliances have given them all this idle time to micromanage their children (or students, patients, charges) and using children to satisfy your emotional needs is a form of child abuse, as these women are incredibly intrusive and judgemental have tremendous difficulty cutting the chord. I could fill several volumes of horror stories. Women need to be bombarded with office work or other repetitive chores, but they should not allowed access to prey on young children (male or female.) And children should be forced to work for their meals and gifts. Tough love breeds self reliance and competency.

“Go back in the kitchen and make me a sammich”

Come on, you can turn me away from my own children, but don’t tell me cooking is a domestic chore, thereby turning it into a trying ordeal.

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Gay State Girl July 27, 2012 at 17:27

I am optimistic that the coming budget cuts will see the near elimination of various useless female laden LAC departments (as well as division 3 teams and sports scholarships) and women (or pansy boys) with such degrees would have to swallow their pride and take up menial jobs that they previously considered to be beneath them.

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Gay State Girl July 27, 2012 at 17:42

I think this is a good idea. You could accomplish boy’s schools by making the argument that you were liberating public schools from disruptive boys and allowing girls to work at a faster pace, graduate from high school in their early-mid teens (as I would have loved) and get a head start in college or work. Boys would have to attend school well into their late teens but would get a stronger foundation and be raised in an all male environment that did not condescend them.

I’d hire a few males to work in girls’ schools as well.

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