The biggest financial decision a young man will ever make

by Featured Guest on May 15, 2012

By Ethical

With the college year heading to a close, if you’re a young man in the graduating class of 2012 you’ll soon be heading out into the world to begin achieving your real life goals. Whatever those goals may be, your choice of career as well as the economic conditions affecting that career will help you achieve the financial well-being you need to get there. But chances are that right now you see these decisions ahead more as chores than life defining choices. Unlike earlier generations who expected a loyal relationship with their first employer for a lifetime, odds are you won’t stay at whatever job you choose for more than the current average of 4.4 years. However consider that this is longer than your entire college studies and that by the end of your first stretch of employment your career will largely be committed to a given industry, a given set of specialist skills, and a given market. Your salary and advancement prospects will be heavily determined by the health of that industry and the choice of skills you’ve decided to specialize in. That first employment contract while not drawn in blood, will nevertheless set your life irrevocably on some course you may not yet completely understand the implications of when you sign.

Your choice of career isn’t the only decision that’ll determine whether you’ll achieve the financial well being to realize your life goals. Regardless of what level of income you’re making, a number of other decisions you’ll soon start planning for are just as critically important to every young man:

Matt Richey – The Motley Fool

Deciding to be content: “Contentment isn’t a feeling or a mood; it’s a decision. Only by choosing to be content with what you already have can you accomplish your budget, saving, and investing goals. Without choosing contentment, you’ll be ensnared by a subtle but ever-expanding appetite for money and all the things it can purchase — and worst of all, it’s an appetite that’s never fulfilled”.

An Atlanta real estate agent

The decision to buy a home, and your choice of mortgage to finance it are some of the biggest financial decisions you’ll make in your lifetime.

Gambling vs. Investing, investopedia.com

Gambling is putting money at risk by betting on an uncertain outcome with the hope that you might win money. Investing involves performing a thorough analysis and committing capital only when there is a reasonable expectation of profit.

Peter Lynch, Research Consultant, Fidelity Investments: “An investment is simply a gamble in which you’ve managed to tilt the odds in your favor.”

Tax Planning, a financial planner

People completely forget about tax planning and strategizing, and instead just focus on investment returns. In all of personal finance I would say that tax planning is the most critical issue of all and ultimately has the biggest impact on your financial well-being.

Who You Marry, a financial planner

Savers have a tendency to become attracted to spenders but savers get annoyed with spenders and spenders get annoyed with savers. Attitude towards money is one of the top causes of divorce.

Bizarrely absent from anyone’s list is the decision to get married at all. Having just gone through a divorce myself and having read hundreds upon hundreds of other divorces cases, it came as a shock to learn that working hard in a well chosen career, being financially responsible, doing one’s best to chose a mate, being a good husband and father, and being quite successful at all these things for twenty or thirty years will not save a man from divorce hitting the reset button on his life and setting him back 10-20 yrs or more in terms of his financial well being.

She may leave at a whim and still get unfairly rewarded despite her having a good job, but it gets worse. When she gets the house in all likelihood she’ll get the contents of that house. Unless you have a notarized list of your property at marriage (you’d have one if you got a prenup and it wasn’t set aside by the judge as many are) this means she’ll get your stuff too. A man having to replace or to go without most or all of the possessions he’s acquired during his entire adult life will put him back even further. This not uncommon scenario also applies to those who decide to cohabit instead of marrying if you buy property in a jurisdiction where a woman will get half of your property if she just cohabits with you.

Of course all of these warnings will sound very impotent to young men just setting out to conquer the world. You haven’t yet lost the invincibility of boyhood so by this point in the article your eyes might have glazed over. Being a young man myself not too long ago I can empathize. A young man at the top of his game can still stop bullets, become invisible, and gain secret ninja powers just by drinking a glass of tequila. His quest to subdue the world naturally leaves no time to listen to old men whine about men’s lack of rights in divorce. But at the same time I hope you don’t fail to take note and remain open to learning a little about what you might be in for. Marriage may have been found to have health and economic benefits for the men who never get divorced, but divorce has devastating financial and health consequences and a significantly increased risk of depression and suicide for the larger percentage of men who do. Divorced men for example are six times more likely to commit suicide. Before entering into marriage men need to know the odds are so stacked against them in divorce that the failure of a marriage literally can kill a man.

Unfortunately you can’t predict whether your partner will change for the worse even if they seem like a good choice of partner now, and regardless of whether you find a “good” woman the virulently anti-male divorce laws still encourage her to take your shit and leave with the kids when it suits her, because after all she can. You can’t change these anti-male divorce laws on demand when your marriage is suddenly on the rocks, and even if divorce laws change on their own to be more fair for men you can’t predict they won’t change back against you. So if despite all these risks marriage is still one of your eventual goals it may be in your interest to reduce your financial exposure through the following steps:

  1. Make sure she earns as much or more than you do and that she agrees to go back to work 3 to 6 months after having children. Mind you this promise bears no weight whatsoever in a divorce court. Divorce is no fault. She has the absolute right to change her mind or to falsely represent her intentions, and you have no right to withdraw from the marriage without penalty on the grounds that she lied. Unfortunately this artificially raises of the market value of the older, more educated, higher earning, and often far more unpleasant women you’ll be stuck with as opposed to the younger more attractive, more fertile, and more pleasantly compliant women you would otherwise prefer, and this is exactly what feminism wants. Chalk it up as a strategic loss.
  1. Rent. Don’t buy a marital residence together. In most jurisdictions the marital residence is treated differently from other assets. Usually it’ll be split 50-50. Depending on the length of the marriage and your own investment this split might be ruinously unfair for you. You may been very proud of your home purchase, thinking you’d be getting a 35% return on your investment due to the increase in real estate values over the last ten years. Your investment will look more pitiful than Florida swampland after you give 50% of the worth of the house to your well-employed spouse who invested nothing. Also women get attached to houses, so even if you made sure that you both contributed equally to the mortgage, getting your share of the equity from her may take expensive litigation.
  1. Seek a career with as much capacity for self-employment as possible. Becoming self-employed is the only way to avoid having your wages garnished if you’re hit with the grotesquely unfair child support or alimony payments that millions of men are punished with. These payments are by law supposed to be restricted to a certain percentage of your income. However judges can at whim assign you a fictitious income that you “should” be making and calculate support payments based on that. This may result in you having to pay over 100% of your entire salary in support unless you want to face garnishment or jail. Self-employment gives you some control.
  1. If you feel you’re the type of man who’ll get very attached to any children make sure to spend 50% of time with them doing their homework or taking part in their activities so that after separation there’s a slightly better chance the courts won’t deny you any meaningful role in the children’s lives.  Even today custody goes to the mother in the vast majority of cases. For up to thirty percent of men the experience of being told by the court they have no value in their children’s lives makes fatherhood so painful and humiliating they end up withdrawing from their children’s lives entirely.
  1. Live in a more modest neighborhood where you’ll be able to afford an apartment close to the marital home so you’ll still be able to get joint custody after divorce if you’re forced to leave the home. Otherwise you’ll effectively be paying her to deny you the opportunity to be a father.

This may seem like planning for divorce but in a very real way it’s planning for marriage success. A successful marriage for most men is one in which you get to keep your balls rather than face a lifetime of ridicule because you’ve become so spineless with your wife that you’ve grown the sopping wet mangina you now sport in place of men’s parts. Through your frustration at home you might even synch with your wife’s cycle and begin to develop “monthly feminine emotional issues” with your co-workers as you drag your ‘gina to work with you every day. Don’t believe you’re immune. Divorce today is so ruinous and so stacked in women’s favor it even warps the power dynamic within marriages, as every harsh word from your formerly soft spoken high school sweetheart becomes an unspoken threat to sodomize you in divorce court. As much of an all American stud as you may be, many a better man than you has found himself middle aged and pitifully emasculated by such an endlessly entitled and demanding princess twenty years down the road.

The “red pill” wisdom to avoid these pitfalls not only will help you avoid doing marriage badly, but it also might have a revolutionary impact on society as a whole in that it gives boys about to enter college unprecedented freedom to rethink their life path. Because if the whole modern marriage and family thing is such a losing proposition it makes sense for young men to reconsider their goals even before going into college. If marriage and family aren’t safe options because having his finances tied to the explosive temper of an entitled wife doesn’t sound like it’s for him then right from high school a young man’s goal entering college isn’t simply to earn more money to increase his value in the marriage market. Recognizing this so early and having enough GAME that he doesn’t have to rely on money to get tail frees boys to choose a more rewarding college program. High school boys will soon have to make decisions about what they’ll be doing next year. Many will find themselves contemplating that although the “College Years” can really be the best time of your life, it’s not only important for you to choose the right school to gain the most out of the experience, but also to consider that although choosing a program that will offer financial well being is important, what you need to keep a wife happy and what you need to pay your bills while you pursue your passion if you forego marriage are two different things.

I admit this kind of freedom isn’t for everyone. Not having to compromise for a woman means you have the absolute freedom to achieve as much as you set out to do, or as little as your faltering courage allows you to take on. So lose yourself in perfecting whatever craft you’ve devoted yourself to. Bet your entire prime years on some game changing idea. There’ll be no one to hold you back, but also no one to blame. You are living life at its most terrifying heights “without wires”.

I don’t caution you young men against marriage lightly. There are countless others who’ll tell you the same. It’s food for thought that feminized laws in virtually all western democracies have so changed marriage that “marriage strike” has become a common meme in the manosphere. Marriage is now only a contract where men’s responsibilities are concerned. Men are brutally penalized as being solely responsible for a marriage’s failure while women are absolved of all consequences for frivolously breaking their vows.

Though marriage unquestionably makes a better environment for raising kids deciding against marriage doesn’t mean deciding against children. In fact I hope my son gives me grandkids and I’d be crushed if he didn’t. But I’ve seen how abusive the courts are to men, and having been brutalized by the courts myself, being unable to help him escape some divorce court judge subjecting him to the same subhuman treatment would send me to an early grave. Even if his marriage lasts I pray I don’t have to spend my retirement years watching him be endlessly emasculated from fear of a reaming in divorce.  An ounce of prevention is in order. Marriage is now so dangerous for men that you need to think seriously about how to defuse the threat or seriously consider avoiding it. However for the many young men who’ll ignore this message of caution, though I’m deeply concerned I’m also hopeful because ignoring the words of past generations is what makes young men so inventive. I may be convinced that marriage today is nearly impossible for men to render harmless, but for every old man like myself who said “it couldn’t be done” there’s a young man busy being successful at doing it. So in the end many of you will focus only on earning to increase your value in the marriage market rather than worrying about mitigating risks of marriage itself. This has always been the way of men and I’ll be rooting that the dice roll your way. As you work tirelessly to achieve great success, perhaps even over extending yourself financially, you may be able to give your wife a big house, one or more nice cars, a nanny, maybe even a pool. But I’ve been around long enough to know that where there’s risk there are some who’ll pay consequences. So after the family court forces you out into a one bedroom apartment under the train tracks on the other side of town I’ll be no less sympathetic that you spent so much time at work the pool boy screwing her is the only one really enjoying your house with its big screen and hi-tech three hundred dollar remote.

Yes as a young man you’ll be tempted to ignore this hard dose of truth if it appears to be more whining coming from a bitter middle aged man. So the absolute last thing I’d want to tell you is that I’m bitter. Truth is I’ve escaped most of the above calamities. But I also have to be honest in saying that I can’t help resenting the older generation of men for not having given me this advice when I was younger, which is why I’m spreading the knowledge to you. Am I bitter about that the older generation of men didn’t talk more about the truth? Yes I am. But information is always empowering whenever it comes. You have the God given right to take what you will from this, figure out a strategy that works for YOU, and take no prisoners in your execution while getting yours. Whatever you decide  myself and many other “old guys” will be cheering you on. If we’re lucky YOU will take up the torch to blaze a new path and discover wisdom that will protect our own young sons in turn.

{ 116 comments… read them below or add one }

Georice81 May 15, 2012 at 12:18

It is sad that a young man must now plan and budget for layoffs at least once every 8-10 years and a divorce or two during his lifetime.

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reficul May 15, 2012 at 12:21

“Make sure she earns as much or more than you do ”

This already assumes she will soon start banging her boss and ask for divorce… thanks for the advice but no thank you…

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Boseman May 15, 2012 at 12:26

My advice to young, detail-oriented men:

Go out and conquer tons of vaginas. Use a set of anonymity precautions so that you can fuck bitches without a condom and when your conquests get pregnant and think they’re going to enslave you, the joke’s on them because you can disappear out of sight and not be found. You can do this over and over again until you have like 20 of your seeds being raised by worthless single mothers who will then drain the welfare system and starve the nation’s treasury. This is the greatest anti-feminist undertaking you can imagine and you will be making a real difference by starving the beast. Now go out and conquer, but your anonymity precautions need to be airtight so you’re not found by private detectives.

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Justinian May 15, 2012 at 13:09

Another trap young men need to avoid falling into is to prepare for age discrimination if they are in tech/engineering.

Quite a number of men with STEM majors start out earning very good money in their early 20s and proceed to put their heads in the sands of false security.

A sudden layoff occurs and then they find themselves middle-aged and unemployable. This can have the nasty effect of triggering a divorce and financial Armageddon.

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Acksiom May 15, 2012 at 13:15

The problem isn’t wives. Wives have always been juvenile and hypergamous by default.

The problem is the communities. Marriage isn’t just a contract between a man on one side and a woman on the other. Marriage is also a contract between a man and a woman on one side, and a community on the other.

And to your communities, as a male you’re just an exploitable natural resource. You’re not really a person. You’re just a beast of burden deliberately and intentionally raised to devalue yourself, just so your abusers can pay a little less for their superior lifestyle.

You’re raised to be willing self-sacrificers so that everyone else can have cheaper resources, infrastructure, manufacturing, defense, and so on — at the expense of your own well-being, safety, health, and lives.

So it doesn’t really matter how much Hand or Game or Alpha you have in your marriage relative to your wife. What matters is how much Hand or Game or Alpha you have relative to your community, because it’s not your wife who will arrest, fine, and imprison you just on hearsay accusations and take away your home and children.

The rest of your community will do that to you, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE FALSE ACCUSER IS YOUR WIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE.

So what if you have such massive H/G/A in your relationship that she would never even dream of divorcing you? All it takes is a false accusation from anyone, even just a random complete stranger just using you as a Get Out Of Cock Carousel Consequences Free card.

It doesn’t matter if the false accuser is your wife. Anyone can screw you over with the justice system, regardless of their relationship to you. Just because you’re male.

For men, the problem with marriage isn’t wives.

For men, the problem with marriage is their own communities.

Because it’s your communities that actually arrest you, fine you, imprison you, beat you, take your children away from you, and so on.

The wives may pull the trigger most of the time, but the justice system is a gun pointed at your head just because you’re male, and ANY WOMAN, YOUR WIFE OR NOT, CAN PULL THE TRIGGER ON YOU YOU AT ANY MOMENT WITH VIRTUALLY NO CONSEQUENCES.

That’s not a problem with your marriages.

That’s a problem with your communities.

It just looks like a problem with your marriages because your marriages are the only relationships your communities will even pretend to validate.

The problem is the amount of Hand, Game, Alpha, whatever, that you have relative to your communities.

And for the vast majority of you, that’s effectively. . .none.

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poochmule May 15, 2012 at 13:19

What I am seeing as well is after the 15 or 20th year most of my friends that are going thru the divorce / separation soon to be divorced cycle are waking up with not the woman that they married! She turned into a little piggy…..like most of america newest epidemic. Word of wisdom to the younger man, women age like milk, men age like wine if you take good care of oneself.

Phillipino bride or bust!!

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Doc May 15, 2012 at 13:20

Trusts… No matter what you do, be sure to set up a trust before you marry, and have all of your assets in that trust, so that on paper you own nothing. If you own nothing, she can’t get anything. This is common sense today, and never live-together – that avoids all of those common-law marriage type situations. Of course women will always push to move in together, or otherwise for something that will benefit her legally – the system is set up that way.

The best thing you can do is to keep playing the field, have several women you spend time with, bringing new ones in all the time as old ones fall by the way-side. If you do decide to have kids, do not do it in the US – go to another country and just live with a couple of women. It’s a lot easier, and you aren’t putting your family jewels in a vice like you do in the US.

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Zorro May 15, 2012 at 13:40

Mother of God. Why would you?!

When a nuke goes off, “POOF!” and it’s over.

When a woman detonates, the blast goes on for decades.

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J May 15, 2012 at 13:42

@Ethical

In the service we have a cheer when someone lays it on straight!

Hoorah!

You earned it!

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Morrisfactor May 15, 2012 at 13:46

Ethical-

Great summation.

If only young men were taught this in high school…

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Uncle Elmer May 15, 2012 at 13:52

You guys have the ability and means to reinvent yourselves. The normative career path will not teach you this.

Yes, you will get canned from your tech job.

Lead an Unemployment Lifestyle. Learn Employment Game. Learn Salesmanship. When you bring money into the organization, you are like a mobster, you can do whatever the fuck you want. Otherwise, you’re just waiting for the axe. Oh yeah, also avoid workplace females.

Other commentary here dead on.

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Szebran May 15, 2012 at 13:54

Good points. It should also be said that women are being told that marriage should be a wife dictatorship
http://antifeministsite.blogspot.com/2012/04/should-men-get-married-anymore.html
And this crap is being promoted nationwide by most major media outlets.
Kinda hard to have a decent marriage if your wife is being told she is the boss.

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 13:56

Eh, as a guy in my late 20s I say thanks but no thanks.

Marriage is and has always been and always will be a form of retirement or resource exchange for women.

Our entire society is set up to divert resources from men to women in many ways. In the past, and in some societies today, there was a social contract where men got something in return. Not so today.

If anything we should be advising young men to expat or simply learn game and use women on their own terms.

It really isn’t difficult to get laid today, especially compared to historical standards.

If anything the real problem for us younger guys is that we are lost in the words without a map and compass. We weren ‘t taught how to read the stars (navigate women and relationships) and even if we do have a map or compass, it turns out it is for a different set of woods and the compass is broken.

The hardest part is that we really don’t have a way to conceptualize what being a adult man is or what masculinity is or how to seduce women(unless you learn game or learned through trial and error like me).

We are simply lost.

I remember as a kid, in the 80s and 90s, being confused when I heard older people complain about the lack of good male role models. Today I completely get it. I grew up in a completely feminized environment and the few role models (maps/compass) I have had lead off a cliff and not to water or happiness.

There really is no other choice than to go your own way, making it for yourself first and foremost, because traditional options simply aren’t options anymore.

I hate to sound like a broken record on this point but you older guys just don’t get it. I know that there are some blind younger guys but most of us get it.

We are the divorce generation. The next generation, whatever comes after millenials/Gen Y, will be the Single Mother By Choice(SMBC) generation.

As a member of the divorce generation I didn’t have to have it happen to me, though my family is unique I did suffer in basically the same way.

It simply happened to all of my friends, most actually, and it was plain as day.

Basically the boomers fooled around sexualy but, according to the data I have seen (don’t have links at the moment), more than 90% married their second or third sex partner.

The women of the 60s and 70s were no where near as slutty as the girls I went to HS with.

The women of the boomer generation got married, put on their shoulder padded pant suits and acted like men. They had children in the 80s.

They went from fighting the man in the 60s to being the she-man with children in the 80s. They convinced their husbands to do 60% or more of the housework and “parenting” (they destroyed the fatherhood of the patriarchy…in all its meanings) and they watched their attraction to their beta husbands shrivel like a exposed cock in antarctica.

They then cheated on their husbands or banged their bosses or became abusive monsters or simply wanted to “find themselves again” in a Eat, Pray, Fuck type of ego driven fantasy.

So by the late 80s and early 90s women divorced their husbands, they took the kids and “parentally” alienated them against their “fathers”(err co-parents).

They got the house and alimony and child support. Many lied to their kids about it, many of my friends and gfs felt betrayed when they found reciepts in kitcken and bedroom drawers while looking for field trip papers that weren’t signed.

These same “heroic” women used their children as emotional tampons and relational foundations talking about everything from their current boyfriends to their horrible ex-co-parents to their loneliness.

They got these same kids to lie about their fathers. They made them choose between parents and grandparents, but it wasn’t a choice with the emotional sword of democles. Some of these mothers trotted their kids to psychologists, others to supervised meetings with social workers and judges. Many simple medicated away their childhood because it was interfering with her and her journey to find herself again.

These boys and girls were friends of mine. Female friends and gfs and bros and their stories were all the same. They got a few hours every other weekend with their dad(err..co-parent). Many never got to see them again.

Most learned early on not to talk about this around female teachers and grown ups because they didn’t like to hear about it. So we kept it to ourselves. My bros and I would only talk about these things while drinking, usually without any girls around, or doing drugs together.

I will never forget one friend of mine who never met his father. In HS, at about 16, he snorted a line of crushed up hydros and said this, during a conversation about parents and fathers and what not:

“Dude, it’s like my soul has a cancerous tumor or something. The more I realize that he wasn’t there and I don’t know who I am the more it grows.”

One common refrain I heard from friends, and uttered myself as a latchkey kid, was this: “I live in a house, not a home.”

No offense, but the people I grew up with lived this. I was in elementary school when I first had conversations about only seeing my dad for a few hours on the weekend and a few friends said they only saw their dad once a month and two friends opined how they had never met their dad.

I don’t want to sound like a dick but this isn’t helpful to me, though I am sure it is helpful to some men so please preach the word.

I just want you and other over 30 men to understand that there was a huge shift that happened between the people who were coming of age, born in the 70s, in the 80s and early 90s and those who were born in the 80s and came of age in the 00s.

It isn’t just the women being slutty. It isn’t just the number counts of non-sluts, in my peer group you really need 20 or more to even be a slut. It isn’t just the fact that I have no fucking clue what people talk about when they mention the phrase “family dinner”….I mean, wtf is that? I never had family dinners. I didn’t even have breakfast, unless I got to school early enough.

It isn’t just about grrl power or feminized schools. One big thing it is about is role modeling for the youth. Girls hate their fathers and project that anger onto their male friends and boyfriends. They watch their mothers talk shit about the man they married, the man who is their co-parent, and they do the same in HS and college.

The cock-carousel that younger Gen Y women are on didn’t appear out of a vacuum. It is what the boomer mothers were modeling in their own homes while “finding themselves” after the divorce.

NOW, giving advice to younger men, preferably middle school aged, is all good and what not (by college age I think you are way to late to be honest) and we should do it but they are by and large already getting this advice from music and media. Find me a college educated man who doesn’t know the word “gold digger”, as a example.

What we really need is a viable path modeled for us that will help us create and sustain relationships with good women, that will help us better screen for sluts and evil women, that will help us to financially set up our lives to decrease our burdens and expand our freedoms, and most importantly is simply a way out of the wilderness.

Disclaimer: I really don’t want to offend. I apologize if I have. It just seems to me that we keep beating the same dead horse with respect to younger men. All of the stuff I wrote above and so, so, so, SOOOO, much more I experienced years before I even knew that the MRM or fathers rights movements or even PUA/Game existed.

It really just seems like the older guys just don’t get it. Go and look at young men. Feminists are pulling their hair out because we are the first generation to be raised with implemented feminist teaching and social engineering from cradle to grave and we are the most misogynistic group of young men to inhabit America since its founding.

Go read any feminist post about gaming culture, or hip hop, or online commenting, or frat bros, or etc. etc. etc.

They get that men have rejected their utopian society and they don’t know what to do about it other than complain or in really lame attempts try to co-opt and colonize the growing manosphere. See, Hooking up Smart or No Seriously What About Teh Mez, or the Good Men Project or all their posts on Game and Nice Guyss and so on and so on.

Here in the more experienced part of the manosphere, what do we get?

The same beating of a dead horse…. (again I don’t want to offend)…..and we are told what not to do instead of what to do.

As a example, lets look at Uncle Elmers advice. I love your posts man but you are wrong about one thing, so no disrespect. He says that young men should simply learn how to dance.

I think this can be powerful advice. I remember being at a bar with some of my friends and there was this one guy who was traditional dancing with a young woman, doing some sort of salsa type waltz. Some guys remarked that he was gay. I pointed out that every woman in the bar was watching them and they looked envious. This wasn’t so much about dancing, IMO, as it was about social proof and social dominance.

The semester before I knew a couple guys who signed up for the dance class. It was 2 hours of guaranteed A simply for showing up for the required number of classes so it could help pad a GPA.

I even went to two of the classes just to check it out. There were about 28 women in the class and six guys, seven when I showed up.

There weren’t enough guys and gals to pair up so the girls took turns taking the lead and following. Even in such a environment the girls simply would not allow a man to lead them. It was amazing, thinking back on it. They wanted so badly to be led but when it came their time to pair up with one of the men they resisted it every fucking step of the way. One of my friends even told me that on the first day one of the girls proclaimed something to the affect of, “I am a independent empowered woman, I won’t stand by this misogyny of being put in my place…why can’t we both lead.”

I had actually forgotten about that until my bro brought it up a few weeks ago when we went out to dinner. This was before I was in the MRM.

Simply telling men to learn to dance, or to use it as a analogy for my problems with this trend, or dance through the system isn’t going to work. You can drop the dance class or put up with it but you can’t change the attitudes of those girls. Same with the attitudes of government and courts and so on.

Pointing out problems is good and I am grateful for the MRM and those who do so, I am sure it helps some men who are lost or signed up for dance class thinking they would get a gf cause of the gender imbalance (none of them did get a gf) but for those of us who know about these problems, I think the majority of men in the divorce generation but I don’t have stats, simply telling us to dance through misandric hoops and the system really doesn’t help.

To me it seems like the difference between jumping out of a airplane without a parachute and jumping out of a airplane with a broken parachute. Either way it is a long way down and neither option sounds good.
I do plan on writing some posts that will be a bit more practical in the near future, especially with respect to determining the slutiness of a potential gf or fiancee.

Ok. I have ranted for long enough. Again I do apologize if I offended. I am sure there is a audience that needs this advice but I and too many other men need something else and we really don’t even know what it is or how to achieve it cause we have never seen it modeled before.

TK

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 13:58

Damn, forgive the spelling mistakes. I have a broken thumb and thought I double checked enough but I meant Woods…

I am sure you can figure out the meanings, if not then ask.

Also again, I do apologize if I have offending any other posters.

TK

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1
Eric May 15, 2012 at 14:13

Ethical:
You left out the first part of the plan: for those guys graduating from HIGH SCHOOL in 2012—avoid the university system like the plague and find a good trade school, or start a small business if you have the means and an idea. If you’re choosing a career like engineering or medicine that requires a university certification, pick a private school specializing in one of these fields. If you think that HS was a scam and a waste of time—you’re probably right, but the universities are even worse.

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Eric May 15, 2012 at 14:23

Uncle Elmer:
That reminds me of the commentary on the recent ‘Mothers Day’ thread. I’m only 41, and I remember when I was young, losing a job or getting a divorce was considered something of a disgrace. Most of the younger guys here never even lived in a time when stable jobs and stable families were the norm. They also never knew a time when police-state culture was considered objectionable. The cultural shift happened here like the Nazi Blitzkreig; one day, it seems, we all woke up to a ‘new normal’.

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W.F. Price May 15, 2012 at 14:51

@Eric

Are you from Seattle originally?

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Rmaxd May 15, 2012 at 14:54

God awful advice as usual for men everywhere …

You dont live by the system, you play the system

Avoid a mortgage at all costs, be an entrepreneur, be your own man

Avoid a career working for faceless corporations, invest in skills with high returns & MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PERSONAL AUTONOMY

Avoid degrees & worthless university education

Teach yourself, be TECHNICALLY & SCIENTIFICALLY & ENGINEERED LITERATE, not corporate literate

Learn game, expat

Aim for a farm, expat your own food supply, multiple women to service you

Fuck the rat race

Great men before us did all of the above as if it were the air they breathed, its about time you guys did the same

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Rmaxd May 15, 2012 at 14:57

Seriously telling men to get a mortgage is JUST AS BAD AS telling men to prepare for divorce …

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Ethical May 15, 2012 at 14:58

Troll King said:
“There really is no other choice than to go your own way, making it for yourself first and foremost, because traditional options simply aren’t options anymore”.

“you older guys just don’t get it. I know that there are some blind younger guys but most of us get it.”

“NOW, giving advice to younger men … is all good and what not (by college age I think you are way to late to be honest) … but they are by and large already getting this advice from music and media”.

“What we really need is a viable path modeled for us that will help us create and sustain relationships with good women, that will help us better screen for sluts and evil women, that will help us to financially set up our lives to decrease our burdens and expand our freedoms, and most importantly is simply a way out of the wilderness”.

@Troll King:
I won’t argue because I’ve already addressed most of these issues but I will ask you to consider some points. Do you agree that significant numbers of young men will still end up getting married? If you feel the answer is “yes” then would you also agree that anti-male laws encourage women to divorce on a whim, and that since we all change with age, even if you’re really accurate at selecting “good women”, doing so doesn’t guarantee that in 10-20 years time she won’t become the type of woman who’ll take advantage of those laws whenever it suits her?

If you don’t agree with the last statement I ask if you’ve seen any of the many comments on the subject of finding women with “good values” such as can be found sites such as Dalrocks. To my knowledge no one has been successful. The consensus seems to be that the laws encourage EVERY woman to behave badly because they can. Even foreign women who come here and can catch feminism real quick when they learn how the divorce laws entitle them to act irresponsibly towards their families.

As for relying on popular media like Kanye’s “Gold Digger” for education, are you confident enough in that education to be certain that the prenups he advises are not easily set aside by judges at will? Are you certain that prenups alone don’t give a false sense of confidence?

Finally when you ask for a “viable path” to help create and sustain relationships with good women, do you feel that making sure you acquire the knowledge not to be financially vulnerable will help you by making a woman think twice about destabilizing your life through divorce? Or do you think it will hurt you?

I’ve asked these questions to encourage re-examination of what I believe are your half-thought through ideas. Making a habit of going on half ideas is even more dangerous than having no idea at all because it leaves no room for the truth. Once you’ve answered these questions you may no longer feel that us older guys “don’t get it”. If you have seen some wisdom in what we’re saying then I’ll be looking forward to a post explaining how more young men could be reached. If you still feel we don’t get it I’ll still be looking forward to hearing where you felt we went wrong.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3
O-Tony May 15, 2012 at 15:31

I think “ethical” is addressing more pragmatic solution and “troll king” trying to get at the”philosophical” in what we are currently examining.

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gunner451 May 15, 2012 at 15:38

TK,

Give it up there is no path in this society that leads to the promised land of a faithful wife, kids and a career. That boat sailed long before you were even born. You can thank your parents, grandparents and great-grandparents for that as each generation let things slip a little bit at a time until, like an avalanche all hell broke loose.

You’ve fingered the problem yourself, the women of your generation are bitter angry sluts with over half of them bloated whales. They are incapable of forming any sort of lasting relationship or of bonding for a lifetime with a husband. The few that might be normal have been so indoctrinated with feminist junk that the compromises you’d have to make to keep the marriage going just are not worth it.

Going over seas is fast becoming a non-option as the feminist disease is rapidly spreading to all corners of the globe, there may be some unspoiled places yet but even if there are you’d have to find a way to live over there as the minute you brought her back here the feminist corruption process would begin.

I see only two options really, the first is to go it alone with whatever pussy you can get, and if you want kids contract it out to a surrogate in India. Or join a gang (street gang, motorcycle gang, the mob, etc) and get married to some woman that knows, deep down in her heart of hearts that if she messes with you or your kids you and your gang will make sure she’s sleeping with the fishes. Anything else is rolling the dice at a crooked casino, the odds are against you and all the players know it but play anyway.

Would also encourage young men like you to try and reconnect with the fathers that were locked out of your life. There’s still some things that you can learn about from them and some benefit on both sides of the relationship.

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Rmaxd May 15, 2012 at 15:45

Ironic but true

2. Paradoxically, feminism can only work in a patriarchal context. Bizarre but true, this observation cuts right to the heart of feminism. The females on the Costa Concordia were looking for male authority (‘an officer’) to protect their privileges. Without patriarchy, without men, feminism would not be possible.

-Anglobitch

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 16:08

@ Ethical.

I don’t think you went wrong, TBH.

I said several times in my comment, and I probably shouldn’t have been so brash but I was just in a grumpy mood so apologies, that I think this message needs to be out there for some men.

The thing I wanted to get across is that guys in their 20s and teens are part of what I call the divorce generation.

We have seen this, and so much more, all around us our entire lives.

As a example, I remember reading a post on declining marriage rates a few years back in a somewhat mainstream site. The writer couldn’t explain why men were so reluctant to get married.

She finally, while not wanting to, came to one possible reason. She concluded that young men will spend their years between 16 and about 30 in the bottom rung of the workforce, assuming they make it bast this rung.

She concluded that they may be working with older men who have divorced and heard and seen of their failures and experiences and may be using that knowledge as a reason to avoid marriage all together.

Now, she really didnt even touch on much about family court or anything and I could tell it was a painful admission for her, through her writing, to even admit such a possibility.

I think she is spot on. Even leaving out guys who grew up in divorced or never married families during the 80s and 90s, most men will work some sort of shitty job in retail or service or construction during HS and college and they will come across man after man after man complaining about CS and Alimony in the break room.

I know I did. I know that almost all of the men I have known since 18 have had this experience, and that isn’t even counting all the guys complaining about their baby mommas and child support.

Of the few men who I have come into contact with who wanted to get married and start a traditional family unity with most were raised in religious families and traditional families and even more importantly most had very limited experience with women. I saw some of those same men go through a few LTR and STR relationships and then like night and day they were against marriage.

Hell, I have been hearing women complain about the death of Chivalry since middle school. I have heard them complain about the lack of real men and good men since HS.

I have known guys who were in LTRs with great women, nice feminine women(atleast by western standards) and as soon as those women started pressing for marriage or children they were dumped within months and the guys just found new gfs and some, as I have witnessed in the last decade since turning 18, have just rinsed and repeated.

Do “most” young men want to get married? Define most? I know there will always be suckers and your article will be helpful for them. I am not convinced most young men want marriage and even the ones who I have met who do complained about how at22 or 25 with degrees and after doing everything “right” they can’t find a woman who isn’t a major slut and/or doesn’t have a STD (fun fact: more than 50 percent of college aged women have atleast one STD) and/or doesn’t already have one or more kids by some jack ass.

I am not convinced that most men want to get married. Or maybe they WANT it, but they realize it isn’t a good idea or there aren’t prospects or something. I dunno.

My main problem is that us younger guys in the MRM get the same advice over and over again.

Some one will tell us not to get married without a prenup.

Then three people pop up and tell us those aren’t worth the paper they are written on.

Then we are told not to get married at all, just look for casual or LTR and maybe live together if you want kids.

Then we are told about common law marriage and how women can fuck us over that way.

So we are told just to game women. Then someone jumps up and talks about false rape accusations.

So then we are told to go overseas. We are told then that women are the same everywhere.

We are told not to work for companies with a lot of women cause of sexual harassment. So we should start our own businesses.

Then three people jump up and talk about all the anti-male business laws and so on…..

Do you see where I am going? Even when given a roadmap on how to navigate things that we, or I, already knew existed I suddenly find out that road map is for a road that doesn’t exist or is in another country or something.

Where are the viable solutions? Seems we are fucked either way.

Again though, I do think this good advice for guys new to our issues or new to the MRM or who are not aware of men’s issues.

I wasn’t meaning to attack you or offend anyone. I should have made my rant a bit clearer.

As for the rest of your comment.

I don’t think Kanye West is a good education, I simply meant that many of these messages have reached a saturation point with the divorce generation.

I haven’t commented much at Dalrocks but I have read his blog for a long time now. I have been saying the same things he says, and others, on this site for over two years.

I am a firm believer that NAWALT is a unicorn.

Again though, good article I just get a bit annoyed that after several years in the MRM that I haven’t seen a concrete path forward that doesn’t just rehash the same warnings.

On this:
“I’ve asked these questions to encourage re-examination of what I believe are your half-thought through ideas. Making a habit of going on half ideas is even more dangerous than having no idea at all because it leaves no room for the truth. Once you’ve answered these questions you may no longer feel that us older guys “don’t get it”. If you have seen some wisdom in what we’re saying then I’ll be looking forward to a post explaining how more young men could be reached. If you still feel we don’t get it I’ll still be looking forward to hearing where you felt we went wrong.”

I don’t really understand what you mean by half-truths. I have said all the other things you have said since before I ever saw a article or comment by you.

As far as older guys getting it. I know that you know more than me about divorce courts. Or family courts. I haven’t been married and under the current situation probably never will. Hell, even if the system was overhauled I probably still wouldn’t marry.

As far as older guys not getting it, what I mean is that the social system and culture of younger guys has been saturated. We, for the most part, know that divorce and marriage are rigged games. Hell, we know the same about relationships with women in general.

Go and look at what young men are saying about women. Go and reread the part of my comment about how we were raised from cradle to grave submersed in feminim and feminist social engineering. As a boy I watched teachers and parents treat masculinity and maleness as a pathology.

Feminists are shitting themselves because they haven’t realized their utopia with this current generation of boys and men. Instead they raised the most “misogynist” generation of males to date.

Feminists complain about lad and bro culture, about online and gaming spaces, about nice guys and jerks and PUA and male oriented media. Women in general complain about commitmentphobia and slut shaming and the three date post sex disapearing act guys pull and the lack of chivalry and lack of good men.

What older guys don’t get is that younger guys do GET it. The more beta the youner guy the more likely he is to complain about slutty girls and serial monogamy and lack of marriageable women and lack of women who don’t have one or more bastard children by her early 20s. Other guys just drop out and others go the PUA route of pumping and dumping them.

To be clear. I think older guys, gen x and baby boomers, do understand family courts and many issues better than many younger guys.

I don’t think older guys understand just how fucking horrible younger women have become.

So let me ask some of the older guys here a question:

When you non Gen Y guys were in HS and College what of these traits applied to more than 25% of your female peers? What applied to 50% or more?

1. Bulimia

2.Anorexia

3. Teen Pregnancy

4. 5 or more sex partners(not counting oral or anal) before 16

5. 6 or more sex partners (not counting oral or anal) before 18

6. 20 or more sex partners before 18 (or 21) (again not counting oral or anal)

7. Mothers who openly talked about sex partners with daughters

8. Mothers who had rotating harems of boyfriends, some of whom molested daughters

9. Mothers who partied (everything from providing a parent free house for her or his friends, to smoking pot, drinking, snorting pills) with daughters or sons.

10. (This one I really want to know) Girls and young women who cut themselves or practiced some form of self mutilation

I genuinely want to know. In HS alone I knew dozens of girls who got pregnant on purpose, out of a social circle of more than 50 boys and girls.

In HS alone I knew more than a dozen women who were either/and bulimic, anorexic and damn don’t get me started on the number of cutters. I find those three really interesting cause with the exception of one or two women they all came from single mother by choice or divorced families where their mothers practiced PAS on them. I dated some of these girls and was friends with the others. They all gave basically the same reason for doing one or more of these three things.

They said, “it gave them a sense of feeling in control of their life.” in one way or another. They were often big sluts too.

And here is the thing I want older guys to understand. These weren’t just emo girls or goth girls. These weren’t the psycho bitch crazy girls, though there were some.

Most of these were the good girls. Get it? Something massive changed, atleast that is the impression I get, between women of age in the 70s, 80, and early 90s, and women of age in the late 90s and 00s. Maybe they put something in the water…I dunno…or maybe it is just the result of unrestrained hypergamous female sexuality coupled with the social and familial breakdown and decay coupled with rampant misandry or….????

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walking in hell May 15, 2012 at 16:21

@Troll King
I graduated from high school in 1984. Things were bad then. I can just imagine how bad they are now.

1. Bulimia
1 girl.

2.Anorexia
2 girls.

3. Teen Pregnancy
4 girls.

4. 5 or more sex partners(not counting oral or anal) before 16
30 girls. My neighborhood was white trash.

5. 6 or more sex partners (not counting oral or anal) before 18
around 15 girls.
6. 20 or more sex partners before 18 (or 21) (again not counting oral or anal)
10 girls.

7. Mothers who openly talked about sex partners with daughters
3 mothers.

8. Mothers who had rotating harems of boyfriends, some of whom molested daughters
5 mothers.

9. Mothers who partied (everything from providing a parent free house for her or his friends, to smoking pot, drinking, snorting pills) with daughters or sons.
10 mothers. Real white trash.

10. (This one I really want to know) Girls and young women who cut themselves or practiced some form of self mutilation
No girls. This is something new.

The something new in the water is single motherhood. These effed up girls come from dysfunctional families. I have young dysfunctional girls attracted to me all the time. For them, I am the father they never had. But I don’t have the stomach for it.

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walking in hell May 15, 2012 at 16:24

@Ethical: Excellent article.

Young men I am 45 years old. Once I had the perfect wife; I had a beautiful son who I adored and spent lots of time with; had a nice apartment and car; had a gun collection and guitar collection; had a great job with a defined benefits pension plan; had a substantial investment portfolio; had a boat in a great marina; was very physically fit and was intellectually interested in many things; and had lots of friends. I built that life from age 25 to 37.

My wife was perfect; she worked, but once we had a child she became a stay at home mom; she was very religions; and she was a virgin when we got married! Can you believe that?! A virgin. She never had a drink, she never did drugs, she never smoked in her life. She was as far from any feminist as I had ever met. I thought I had the perfect girl, so I did not wait and I married her within a year after I met her. I wanted to do everything honorable and right. The marriage lasted ten years.

Seven years ago I came home and my wife and son were gone. My wife had decided she wasn’t happy. In her own words, she was young and naive when she got married and wanted her “space.” Emotional abuse was her accusation. Sound familiar?

Over the last seven years I lost my wife, my son, my apartment, my car, my guns, my guitars, my great job, my investments, my boat, my physical fitness, and my interest in anything intellectual. I am one step from jail and still over $100,000 in debt.

I have not seen my son, nor spoken with him in seven years. I work shitty jobs with no benefits and earn just above minimum wage; I earn around one sixth of what I used to earn. I live in a shitty little room in a two bedroom place with a student. I don’t have any retirement; I can’t save any money. My life is so empty and meaningless, it is unbearable. I have not had one moment of happiness in seven years; no not one moment of happiness. Psychiatrists didn’t help; drugs didn’t help; other women didn’t help; traveling didn’t help; moving didn’t help.

I am very angry I was not more aware of just how bad things were for men of divorce. I am angry older men were not more honest with me when I was younger. Though in reflection, I remember some of the hollow eyes and faces of some of my friends dads who were divorced. Some of them could barely speak a word in public when they were visiting their sons. Now I understand.

I can honestly say that even though my marriage was great, in the end the emotional and financial cost was infinitely greater then the joys I received during the marriage. I would have had a much better life, if I had never met my wife and had never had my son–really.

Being a divorced father is not being a father at all; it is being a distant visitor. You have very little influence over your children’s lives. You miss out on most of the joys that children bring; all you are is a paycheck; it is degrading and unnatural to be told when you can meet your children, and when you can call them; this was not God’s plan; this is nothing but mental torture, and in many cases the children forget you as they grow older; this is why many men walk away.

Then if you do walk away, you are haunted by the ghosts of your children. People call you a “dead beat dad” and blame you for not spending every penny you have on “fighting for your children,” even though the fight is usually a losing game. You are supposed to show your love for your children by throwing all your money and energy into the abyss of the divorce industrial complex to try and preserve your few hours of shitty “visiting time” per month. Other fathers are simply driven out of their children’s lives because they hold no cards in relation to the power the ex-bitch has. Even though they spend and spend and
spend, they lose and lose and lose.

continued below…sorry for the long post but it means lots to me

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 16:25

@ gunner

Yeah, I have thought those same things myself.

One problem I don’t see brought up much about expatriating is the other side of the coin to global feminist dominance.

Setting up permanent residence in many countries is no walk in the park, especially non westernized countries. Not to mention that many men in those countries, especially Islamic based countries, have all sorts of ways of making it difficult for outsiders to marry “their” women. It may be social or legal or cultural but there are definately barriers other than simply finding a country that hasn’t been infected with feminism.

@ Ethical.

I just reread your comment to me and realized that I didn’t respond to the question you actually asked. I said most and you said significant numbers in relation to younger men marrying.

I really don’t know what portion of men will marry. For those that do marry or want to marry I do think that your article is good advice.

At the same time we now, for the first time so I am told, have more single and never married men in America. It is over 50%. When I did a bit of research into that stat awhile ago I found that they did the typical statistical cover up. They were counting second and third marriages and the divorces that preceded them to get the number of non married down to something like 54%. The article I read on it conveniently left out that second and third marriages have higher divorce rates and they also left out the way the stat was calculated.

Just from what I remember looking at when I did some research on that article and stat it looked like the never will marry, instead of the single not currently married(which counted divorced people) was much much higher than 50 percent especially for those under 35.

Now, again, I don’t know what will happen but it seems obvious to me that incredibly large numbers of younger men, and women to some degree, are simply against marriage.

I really don’t know what significant means in this context, especially considering the constant onslaught from women about the lack of marriageable men.

But again, to those men who want to marry or who will marry your article is good advice.

My main assertion was that many of these ideas have already reached cultural saturation with the under 30 set that I am a part of.

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The Mighty Bob May 15, 2012 at 16:27

Awrite, min. This’ll put us down the cludgie.

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/uk/full-time-mothers-to-get-state-pension-1-2291440

The Scottish National Party wants to give stay at home mums full pensions. Hou muckle is this going to cost us. We’re supposed to be canny with money but this promise is a big one.

This chill will pay for aa. Clearly a try to get way to get the women to vote for Independence.

Cheerio!

Cheerio the nou.

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Andie May 15, 2012 at 16:28

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 16:34

@ walking in hell

That is horrible man.

You are almost 20 years older than me. I want you to know that I have heard some variation of your story so many times I can’t count since I was 18.

I also want you to know that girls and boys I knew whose fathers went through that as they were growing up saw the other side of the picture.

I have known more than one young man in his 20s and early 30s who disowned his mother and looked up his father and rekindled that relationship.

Stories like yours are why I will never marry. You say that you live with a student? Have you talked with them about it? Have you heard their perspectives on modern women and dating and marriage?

It took me hearing divorce horror stories from dozens of guys before I really opened my eyes and realized it couldn’t be a coincidence or bad luck or whatever.

I am somewhat dense and stubborn in some ways but my main point was that there are so many divorced guys and guys with baby mommas and guys with psycho exgfs that you simply can’t hide the truth with such large numbers.

I don’t have to burn my own hand to find out something is hot and will burn you. I can simply watch it happen to dozens of guys and realize that I don’t want to do that.

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope things get better

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walking in hell May 15, 2012 at 16:38

@troll king
“Thank you for sharing your story. I hope things get better”

Thanks, I want to tell the rest of the story and share some statistics, but I think my posts are too long. I think I have turned at least 1000 young guys off of marriage over the last seven years.

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Eric May 15, 2012 at 16:47

Price:
No, I moved here from Nevada during the mid-90s. I spent most of my youth in Missouri, but I was born in Illinois.

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Boxer May 15, 2012 at 16:51

Dear Walking In Hell:

Excellent followup to an outstanding comment. There’s really good content on the spearhead this week.

My wife was perfect; she worked, but once we had a child she became a stay at home mom; she was very religions; and she was a virgin when we got married! Can you believe that?! A virgin. She never had a drink, she never did drugs, she never smoked in her life. She was as far from any feminist as I had ever met. I thought I had the perfect girl, so I did not wait and I married her within a year after I met her. I wanted to do everything honorable and right. The marriage lasted ten years.

This is the most painful lesson I had to learn, and I learned it with the help of brothers on the internet.

It doesn’t matter *what* your sweet, innocent, blushing little girlfriend is or is not now. Perhaps she is the one in a billion who is truly “not like all the rest”.

What matters is what she might turn into one day. A virginal girl who promises to always be true has the potential to fuck you over at any time once you sign that marriage contract. Once she does this, it is all over for you.

One thing I hope you’ll do, is to be willing to see your son come back to you when he is an adult. You may be out of the picture temporarily, but your son knows well enough what kind of deceitful cunt is raising him. Time has a way of righting all these wrongs.

In the mean time, enjoy the single life, keep fit, and try not to be too angry at the dumb bitch you were silly enough to marry. I’m guessing that her life has collapsed under her discretion much more effectively than you could ever have done. Most women, when the dust settles, are far worse off divorced than they ever were married.

Regards, Boxer

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walking in hell May 15, 2012 at 16:51

@andi
“My focus has been family and stability. My goals are synonymous with our family’s well-being.

The advice I give to men I know is : Marry someone who is prepared to put your needs and your career first.”

But at any time you might start putting yourself first and focusing on yourself. Why wouldn’t you? And if you did, you have all the power of the divorce courts behind you. You should not have that kind of power; that is the problem. Your husband and family’s well-being is totally in your hands. Like all unequal balances of power, the situation is one nudge from falling down. You can unilaterally destroy your husband, if you “think” he deserves it.

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RMM May 15, 2012 at 16:52

Heh, hehehehe. So here’s what Matt Richey said in the original quoted article:

“Savers have a tendency to become attracted to spenders”

Indeed, men have a tendency to become attracted to women. He has a funny way of phrasing it though.

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Eric May 15, 2012 at 16:58

Mighty Bob;
It might be a positive thing if it excludes so-called ‘single moms’. Otherwise, the future Scottish Republic is going to have one of the worst forms of legalized prostitution: do a trick once; get knocked up; and be on the public dole for life. Then when those feral offspring grow up, you’ll have what we Americans do: gang-cultures and ghettos.

You guys better be thinking really hard about getting yourselves a king and doing it right! LOL

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Poochmule May 15, 2012 at 17:00

Then if you do walk away, you are haunted by the ghosts of your children. People call you a “dead beat dad” and blame you for not spending every penny you have on “fighting for your children,” even though the fight is usually a losing game. You are supposed to show your love for your children by throwing all your money and energy into the abyss of the divorce industrial complex to try and preserve your few hours of shitty “visiting time” per month.

A losing battle.

Men can get duped so get that vasectomy, it is the only way if you are getting some pussy. Then you have no choice, you enter the MILL of CS and fighting with a baby mama that extracts dollars from you like and ATM machine. You can fight and you will lose in family court and eventually give up because the lawyers start to cost you a lot of money, and you become a slave, all women now a days know this. I can hear them talking about there sons and daughters on the phone about the divorce, visitation, lawyers, what to say, what will happen next, everybody gets divorce, its in our culture, western culture. Out mothers and fathers, uncles and aunts, brothers and sisters, friends and so on. there is no such thing as together forever. Most women sell themselves to the highest bidder, for instance my last live in g friend was medical assistant, cute nice single mother, but she had a nice body and the new doctor gave a notice to that so she cashed me out and upgraded, but I think it backfired on her, the doctor was in the process of his divorce and was a little gun shy of round two, but he got a nice piece of ass because he had the power being a doctor and all. I dodged a bullet.
\Now I know better and I wish I found this site about ten years ago.

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Eric May 15, 2012 at 17:08

Walking inHell:
I was talking to a client of mine recently who, despite being single at 50 and having a history of bad relationships, was telling me that MRAs were just bitter and ‘not all women are like that’. So, I asked him: among the successful, responsible men we mutually know, what is their relationship statuses? The answer:
Single: 12
Divorced: 14
Victims of false accusations: 5
Happily Married/Raising Families: 2 (wives both foreign-born, BTW)

Then, I asked: what about the worst men we mutually know? Losers who are career criminals, con-men, addicts, &c?
Answer: 6 guys with 22 kids by 15 different women.

Expatting is looking better and better all the time…

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 1
Troll King May 15, 2012 at 17:28

Walking in Hell

Thanks for the stats.

I find it difficult to know if things really were that different for older people or if people are just deifying the past.

I wasn’t even one year old when you graduated HS.

Were those stats just of the people in your social circle who weren’t white trash, or of all the people in your HS graduating class that you heard rumors about or witnessed?

I was only counting in my social circle; so friends, friends of friends, and acquitances.

My area is/was fairly white trash too. The south, specifically Tenn. But our town wasn’t as trashy or poor as some of the ones a district or two over.

The thing that gets me, besides the horrible and atrocious attitudes of younger women, is the bulimia and cutting. It is rampant. I knew fewer oxy addicts in the last 10 years, and I have friends dead and maimed from the drug and related violence, than girls I have hooked up with who were either/ or on the bulimia and cutting.

It isn’t even obvious either. You might expect the tatted up emo chick but some nice christian girl who isn’t even on the slutdar cause she has ONLY slept with 8 people and you pull down her pants during a hook up and see scars up and down the inside of her leg, some of them fresh.

Think of the type of personality that would do that? In my case, and several of the men who I have talked about this with, we might fall for a girl and pedestalize her a bit, wanting to save her and be a white knight, but after one or two fucked up relationships like that and dealing with what us young folks call, “sticking your dick in crazy” I run the other way if I even get the whiff of any idea that cutting is going on.

The last fucking thing I am going to do is save her and try to marry her or something.

Add those girls into the mix of baby mommas with non ending baby momma drama, std infected sluts, young divorced women, and fatties and born again virgins and other assorted types of crazy and the pickins are slim for any woman worth fucking more than once or twice much less having a relationship with.

I am actually lucky that I live right off of a college campus, if I had to live back in that town or any surrounding towns I would turn gay faster than I would end up in a relationship with those types of women.

You mentioned single motherhood….well, that is sorta my point about calling millenials the divorce generation.

Single motherhood, in my experience, isn’t relegated to white trash or the other side of the railroad tracks anymore. It is mainstream and has been since I was in middle school. I literally knew more people from divorced and single mother by choice families than intact families. A ratio of about 2.5:1

Most weren’t trailer trash. Most were middle class and some even upper middle class. It is only going to get worse for the next generation, which I am dubbing Single Motherhood By Choice(SMBC) because if you look at the stats they now make up the majority.

Not only that but I have a cousin who is now in middle school and the feminization and misandry is about twice as bad for him as it was for me. He has already had years of his boyhood medicated away from him through compulsory school and doctor interference. Simply cause boyhood is seen as a pathology in this shithole of a country.

Anyways, good luck. I hope things improve for you.

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FFP May 15, 2012 at 17:36

Andie, how do you like the number 1 advice? Especially the part about kicking the woman out back into the work place just 3 months after she’s given birth? How healthy is that for the child. But these guys will insist she “contribute financially” instead of mothering.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 11
Troll King May 15, 2012 at 17:42

Anyone want to read what younger men are saying about women from a forum populated by pretty much nothing but college aged and 20 something men.

The story of how I got cheated on by every girl I ever dated. W/ Pics

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143438943&highlight=cheated+girl

I saw it posted in the comment section at heartiste awhile back and saved it. It is instructive but also hilarious, atleast I think so….my favorite new term is:

Sloots gonna Sloot.

It is long but the guy basically talks about his last six gfs, not fuck buddies or one night stands but gfs, and how they all cheated on him in various ways. The pics are interesting too because these don’t look like the sluttiest girls in HS or on campus, most look fairly preppy and normal. One cheated on him by getting into a gangbang with several BBCs(which I think stands for Big Black…you figure it out)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1
AfOR May 15, 2012 at 17:53

@ troll king

The cutting thing isn’t new dude, I saw it in the seventies and eighties, maybe it wasn’t as common as now, but it sure as hell was there.

These “step changes” in society that you hear us older guys talk about ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS coincide with some change in the law, whether it is abortion laws, or child welfare laws or divorce laws of domestic violence laws, but it takes about a decade AFTER each change for the fire to start burning, and a decade after THAT for it to get out of control.

Revisit the effects of VAWA etc in 2020, and again in 2030, IF you have a society left by 2030, which I strongly doubt.

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Ted May 15, 2012 at 18:17

“If anything the real problem for us younger guys is that we are lost in the words without a map and compass. ”

Right. And us old guys are working from a map of a world that doesn’t exist any more. I don’t like to admit it, but you’re on your own.

As to cutting, none. Don’t stick your dick in crazy; you’re dead right there.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1
Free Human Being May 15, 2012 at 18:21

I believe it’s my duty as a father to let my son know that marriage is a serious risk.

This article hits the nail square on the head talking about risk mitigation.

Sons must be taught that marriage can and will leave you broke and possibly distraught and only being mindful of this and taking preparations can risk of marriage be managed.

The truth is we may not be able to stop them marrying but we can let them know the downside.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1
Troll King May 15, 2012 at 18:28

Here is a nice forum link, from the same workout site above, where these guys link to a article about cheating wifes and they rage.

They bring up how marriage is bullshit and how all women are whores who whore a lot.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=139409543&highlight=cheated+relationship

The article on cheating:
http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/why-i-cheated-on-my-husband-2596381.html

Some funny stuff….atleast to me.

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piercedhead May 15, 2012 at 18:34

The first time I heard a guy describe divorce, loss of children, and being forced to pay a woman who was wealthier than him (who was living with another guy, was 1991. It was a guy I had known at a former workplace – an engineer in fact, and a very popular person at that time. He had an upbeat personality, a quick wit and a diplomatic, though personable, presence. Everyone not only liked him, I think they admired him as well. I certainly did.

I met him in 1991 at a conference in another city, a good 7 years after last seeing him. We went and shared a drink at a bar afterward. His humor was gone. His cheery manner was gone. After the first drink he went dark and told me the whole story. To my innocent ears, I thought he was mentally ill. I agreed with everything he said, tried to be as unconfrontational as I could, and got the hell out of there.

Even though I dismissed most of what he said – I had never heard this sort of thing before – I never forgot him. I couldn’t believe the transformation in him, nor the absurdity of his story. I found it too insane to believe every word of it. But as it turns out, he was only the first of many to tell me the same story. As they say, you never forget your first.

I carried on as any young man – I dated, wasted good money on bad women, and worse, wasted so much time expecting something from them than will never be got. As I grew older, I began to look closer at men who were not complaining – the men still married after 20 years, the men in my own family. I didn’t like what I saw. They had all surrendered. It was about then that I decided to stop the whole dating racket, live by myself and have nothing further to do with the whole racket.

It turned out that the sad engineer I met had actually planted the most potent notion of a nightmare in my mind that anyone could ever have done, and it very probably saved my life.

Pity he doesn’t know it, and never would have known it by the reception I gave him.

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 18:40

Lol.

The Executive Director of Feministing has published an article about marrying yourself.

http://prospect.org/article/marrying-yourself

LMFAO. WOMAN. LOGIC. Rirrrt. Derrr.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0
Troll King May 15, 2012 at 18:53

@AfOR.

I completely get the step analogy. As far as the cutting thing goes, I am sure it was there but I simply haven’t heard any guy over 35 really mention it and let’s be honest here; you are not the average type of guy from what I have seen on your blog.

I find it difficult to imagine my grandmothers generation cutting, or even being anorexic or bulimic, but there have always been crazy women so who knows.

@ Ted

I get that. That is what is frustrating to me. It seems we shouldn’t have to be alone but we are. Our problems are wide spread and common, it isn’t just happening to less than 1% of men who probably deserve it anyways….It is everywhere and we still can’t seem to build much in the way of communities.

It seems like individualism is hardwired into men and we really can’t work in groups simply because we are men, the way that women do because they are women, but instead only come together in groups for reasons other than being male…..like politics or sports or the military and so on. It’s a shame.

Ironically I am getting old enough that I have trouble understanding 18 yr old guys and their reality. I don’t just mean their tastes in music but their shared experiences and that is only get to become more common for me in the next decade. It won’t be that long, especially considering the crap my cousin has told me about the school system, before I am the one sitting here and going, “cmon, women can’t have gotten any worse….can they?”

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Troll King May 15, 2012 at 18:56

Ozy Frantz, from No Seriously What About Teh Menz, is a feminist who has found that there isn’t much left for feminism to do except co-opt and colonize the manosphere, which doesn’t seem to be working too well for her, is now tired of sex.

Tired of Sex.

http://www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2012-05-im-bored-with-sex

I wish I could say she is a extreme outlier in how she views sex and relationships for young women but she isn’t that abnormal, not the most common to be fair but not that far off of the sprectrum either.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2
Troll King May 15, 2012 at 19:12

This is a interesting blog:

Where are the Women?

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2009/08/where-are-women.html

I am not sure I agree with her premises, and especially not her conclusions but interesting none the less.

According to her over one third of men in the west are priced out of the marriage market due to men “unnaturally” living longer (because we aren’t dying in wars or on the job as much, seems natural to me…sarcasm).

So, how do we square that with this idea that large portions of men will marry?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Ted May 15, 2012 at 19:20

Troll King, on AfOR:
“let’s be honest here; you are not the average type of guy from what I have seen on your blog.”

AfOR’s blog shows him to be the very model of level headed rationality, given the circumstances. I have to admit to only being able to read it in small doses, however.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
Charles Martel May 15, 2012 at 19:22

@Troll King

From the article you linked to: Tired of Sex

“Oh, sex is fine while I’m having it. It’s still a pleasant activity often resulting in orgasm. As activities go it ranks as somewhat more enjoyable than doing the dishes and somewhat less enjoyable than eating frosting directly from the tub. If one of my partners wants to have sex with me and I’m not too busy then I’ll have sex and enjoy it perfectly well.

But when I think about sex when I’m not having it, the whole business just seems vaguely unpleasant and a bit of a waste of time. I mean, orgasms are nice, I guess. Floggings are cool. But really, it’s just a lot of work, isn’t it?

Priceless. And you’d get an identical quote from 99% of married women. The same level of enthusiasm – negligible. I’ve heard a married woman describe sex as just one more chore. Like loading the dishwasher. Just one more person who wants something from you.

Women are wired for serial monogamy. Three years with one guy and then on to the next. Much longer than that and you’re yesterday’s news. That’s why the old morality – social norms, the church – presented Marriage 1.0 as work, as a mutual sacrifice. Because it was, with both parties required to subordinate their self-interest to the higher purpose of raising children in a functional family.

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Johnycomelatley May 15, 2012 at 19:22

Doc
Trusts. I don’t know why there is so little discussion in the manosphere about trusts?

The son of my friend’s boss (worth something like a 500 million dollars, a transport magnate) recently got divorced and the wife made a claim of 20 million dollars. How much did she get? Zilch.

The whole business is owned by a family trust and the son gets paid in cash so there were no wages to deduct. Even the home was owned by the trust.

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Poochmule May 15, 2012 at 19:57

Women are wired for serial monogamy. Three years with one guy and then on to the next. Much longer than that and you’re yesterday’s news. That’s why the old morality – social norms, the church – presented Marriage 1.0 as work, as a mutual sacrifice. Because it was, with both parties required to subordinate their self-interest to the higher purpose of raising children in a functional family.

That about says it all!

Live with them, don’t knock them up, be a sugar daddy when they need some extra cash for college, don’t fall in love, serial monogamy, don’t move them in, string them along as long as you can until they demand marriage, then cut them loose, go to S America or Asia for 7 or 8 days, clear your mind, work on your hobbies, (fishing, travel, home improvements), get another one if you want, repeat!!!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 4
Poochmule May 15, 2012 at 19:57

Live with them part time…..

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Southern Man May 15, 2012 at 20:07

Nice point about that first job. With my STEM PhD almost completed I was applying to everything from defense contractors to the CIA, but took a one-year teaching appointment in my field while I finished up. Been teaching twenty years now.

My young son, desperate for any kind of job at all, finally went to McDonalds. “It’s only for a few months until I find something better.” Now he’s a manager trainee and on the fast track to having his own store.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2
W.F. Price May 15, 2012 at 21:36

@Charles Martel & Troll King

Oh geez, that’s our Ozy. Until now, I was a lot more familiar with her nether parts than her face, although I do recognize the other aspects of her figure. She blogged her unshorn pubic area and the rest in some rather explicit XXX posts a year or so ago, and although I was tempted to write something snarky at the time and seize the public domain images, I thought I ought to refrain and give the girl a chance to remove such an ill-considered series of photos.

I’m really kind of a softie that way — even and especially with my poor, lost American sisters.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
Antifeminist One May 15, 2012 at 21:53

@Troll King

My path will be expatriating. Realising that NAWALT is a unicorn is something that all men need to know, because if there’s ever a step for all men to take in the right direction, it’s with that knowledge.

Expat to a country that still has some control over its society, try to change laws in your own country, or go completely MGTOW.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1
Poochmule May 15, 2012 at 21:55
Boxer May 15, 2012 at 22:08

Dear Doc, Johnny, et. al.

Trusts ought to be explored in detail, here or elsewhere. They’re used by some of us and others don’t know anything about them, apparently.

Trusts will not prevent against the usual pitfalls of marriage to a North American skank. Among the most common are venereal disease, raising the child of some thug she banged on the side and passed off as your own, punitive alimony judgments by bigoted judges of the family court system, etc. The best policy is not marrying any woman in the first place.

Marriage (cohabitation too) is for the weak. I tried it a couple years ago. The chick I lived with was a skillful cook, sexual athlete, cleaned up after herself, was constantly employed and never bitched. It still sucked and wasn’t worth it. Just say no, to marrying that ho.

Regards, Boxer

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 5
Raj May 15, 2012 at 22:37

In this vast casino called society, the only winning move is not to play.

Just like anyone who gives you tips on how to win in a casino is employed by the gaming industry, anyone who teaches you how to marry right works for the society.

Its bad enough men on the whole are married to women on the whole through forced taxation, why pay more?

Learn to stroll through the casino enjoying the views and any free samples you get but don’t make any bets.

Also be wary of the expatriation mirage.

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Poiuyt May 15, 2012 at 22:39

http://www.cityam.com/wealth-management/splitting-may-divide-your-pension-savings
Monday 20th February 2012, 4:50am
CHARLES RUSSELL
AMY RADNOR
“””THE courts have three separate powers to distribute capital on divorce, the first two, namely the ability to transfer a property from one party to another, and the ability to order one party to pay the other a specific sum of money, are familiar to most couples. The third power is the power to make a pension sharing order, which is much less well understood, despite the fact that for many families the pension pot may be the most valuable asset, apart from the family home.

Pension sharing orders are only available on divorce, or on the dissolution of a civil partnership. They cannot be made over a foreign pension or the basic state pension, but can be made over any other kind of pension scheme, whether public or private sector, occupational, contributory or non-contributory.

Pension sharing orders have largely replaced the old system of ear-marking part of a pension scheme for an ex-spouse. This was unsatisfactory as there could not be a clean break and the actions of one party in relation to the pension scheme obviously affected the other. Neither could individuals deal independently with their own pension fund without having to seek the other’s agreement. By contrast, pension sharing orders allow a percentage to be completely sliced off the main pension and then either kept in the same scheme, but as an entirely separate fund, or reinvested in another scheme. It cannot be taken as cash.

The ex-spouse is then subject to the rules of the pension scheme in terms of the age at which benefits can be drawn. [[[ Women live longer than men, and so an ex-wife will need a greater share of pension assets in order to produce the same income on retirement !!! ]]]

The split is complete at the time of implementation, and after that each party pays into their own separate scheme and neither will get any benefit from any contributions made by the other. For instance, if an ex-wife decides to keep her pension credit in her ex-husband’s occupational pension scheme rather than moving it elsewhere (and the scheme agrees) she becomes a member of the pension scheme like anyone else. Her fund is entirely separate from her ex-husband’s and any payments made by him or his employer into his fund do not benefit her.

Pensions can be shared in any percentage, including 100 per cent (i.e. the transfer of the whole of a pension fund).

Often, one party may prefer to keep their pension intact and offset other assets against it, or they may need to do so because there is an overseas pension which the court cannot divide. In that case, a greater share of the other assets can be offered in lieu, but it would be usual for there to be a discount in value to reflect the fact that cash is more valuable than an illiquid pension, which may not be realisable for many years (if at all).

Amy Radnor is a solicitor in the family group at Charles Russell.”””

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
Michael May 15, 2012 at 22:54

@Johnycomelatley

Good on the magnate’s family. Bet she didn’t know that there’s money and then there is smart money.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0
walking in hell May 15, 2012 at 23:31

@troll king
Anyone want to read what younger men are saying about women from a forum populated by pretty much nothing but college aged and 20 something men.

It is great that these forums exist where men can share their experiences of being cheated on. It has happened to everyone who has had a couple of girlfriends; some men won’t admit it; and some don’t know it.

Once these women move onto marriage, the men think they have changed: not true. They only graduate to the divorce courts and into dumping old husbands for new husbands or into single motherhood.

In the past the men felt like they did something wrong; or like there was something pathologically wrong with them. Men are exploited economically and emotionally by these beliefs.

They did not realize they lived in a cesspool; and all the fish living in the cesspool with them, were polluted. Any healthy fish thrown into the cesspool would eventually become polluted.

So the solution is to get out of the cesspool; and while you are in the cesspool don’t eat the fish.

I maintain that it is actually morally wrong to bring children into the world with these women. Because you are condemning the children to a life in the cesspool. I maintain that if a woman once lived into the cesspool, it is morally wrong to bring children into the world through her.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 1
walking in hell May 15, 2012 at 23:42

“Lol.

The Executive Director of Feministing has published an article about marrying yourself.”

This is great: because the best man for an American Woman is no Woman.

I would encourage American Women into one of two directions: 1) single hood; 2) lesbianism.

For professional life, encourage them into the military. If you have a little extra cash, sponsor a woman to get her tubes tied.

If all American Men did this, these rotten women would be wiped out in a generation.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2
Eric May 16, 2012 at 00:00

Walkinginhell:
‘The Executive Director of Feministing has published an article about marrying yourself.’

How many times have we heard women say that if they could marry themselves, they would? LOL. Their narcissicism is so extreme that only someone exactly like them can be good enough for them.

Self-centered, man-hating bitches—all of ‘em!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1
walking in hell May 16, 2012 at 00:30

Part 2)

Divorce makes you a very undesirable man to other women. You have no money; you feel empty, hollow, and depressed all the time; and you don’t want anymore children. When you lose your children, you can never really recover; you usually feel like you are operating at around 20% of capacity. You need around 9 to 10 hours of sleep in order to not break down in tears the next day; yes, uncontrollable crying is often a consequence of divorce for men. No man would admit it; but the ones that cared about their wives and children do it.

I used to be optimistic and I used to think I was in control of my destiny; I accomplished so many things in my life in spite of the odds against me (terrible family, bad neighborhood, etc). People that knew me thought I had a great sense of humor and lots of talent in many areas (math, science, music, athletics). Now I feel I have no control over my destiny. I have not laughed in seven years; I can’t even begin to tell a joke like I used to. I have no intellectual interests and no goals.

As a Christian, the one hope I have is peace after my worthless earthly life is over. That distant hope is what gets me through the day without putting a gun to my head.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 1
dannyfrom504 May 16, 2012 at 00:36

Troll King- EXCELLENT comments.

I’m 38 and I’ve never been married and all the friends I had in my mid-20′s gave me crap about it. Fast forward 10 years and 90% of them tell me, “You’re a genius.”

I’m the only single, never-married man in my neighborhood (very upper middle class suburb). Most of the wives hate me. lol. What they don’t know is that the husbands CONSTANTLY tell me to never get married. And we’re talking guys in the late 30′s-early 40′s. One of the guys told me point blank.

“Danny, I’m fucking trapped. Don’t EVER do this.”

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 42 Thumb down 1
Hisoj May 16, 2012 at 00:49

do not marry, do not cohabitate. in today’s market, women are radioactive.

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walking in hell3 May 16, 2012 at 00:58

Part 3)

I hope my writing on this website will really awaken young men as to how much of a “horrible” country for men they live in. I hope they will realize just much their country hates them because of their gender.

If you are a man in America, your chance of getting married and getting divorced and losing custody of your children before they are 18 is high; at the very least it is 27%.

Calculate it = (number of divorces * percent of women getting custody * number of marriages ending when children are under 18) =
.5*.9*.6 = 27% .

You can bet the percentage of marriages that end is higher when the children are younger. Why? Because the bitch will get more child support for a longer period of time.

Even though marriage is honorable and children are a great blessing, American Women and the divorce industrial complex have perverted the idea of marriage and family. Therefore, young men, if you stay in America you will have a happier and more fulfilling life and be wealthier if you stay single.

You can have an even better life if you pursue a long-term expat strategy that will get you out of the “castration nation.” Then once you have ex-patted, have children in your new family-friendly country.

Always remember, when you marry a woman, you marry her culture; why? because all women regress to the mean of the culture at some time. If you hate her culture, you are going to hate the woman or you are going to find your self completely acquiescing at some time in the future; and if she thinks you are a coward or detects that you hate her, she will go the courts because “you don’t fulfill her” of because “she can,” and you will be destroyed.

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Eric May 16, 2012 at 01:00

dannyfrom504;
We know what the divorce rate is; I’ve often wondered how much higher it would be if some men weren’t completely trapped by their sadistic wives.

That’s why a lot of these ‘statistics’ some bloggers throw out constantly about marital happiness are completely bogus. For every guy whose wifes crushes him in divorce court in a single blow, I’ll bet there’s another guy whose dying by inches because he can’t escape and is without any legal recourse whatsoever.

Which brings up a point ‘Walkinginhell’ just made. We all know the statistics for suicides among divorced men. How many suicides among single men do you suppose are connected with female abuse of some kind?

Those issues are like the ‘Dark Side of the Moon’ in the MRM. What we see on the surface is bad enough; shine a light on the whole picture and it probably looks even worse.

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walking in hell4 May 16, 2012 at 01:00

Part 4)

I made three mistakes: 1) I thought divorce would never happen to me; and 2) I did not know how truly horrible divorce really was; 3) I underestimated the power of the American culture to influence even the best women into becoming rotten wives and mothers.

Young men, when faced with divorce, your natural inclination is going to go something like this: 1) I’ll kill the bitch; or 2) I’ll leave the country; or 3) I’ll talk her out of it. You will probably do neither, neither, neither. Instead, you will probably suffer, lose your children, get thrown into jail at least once, and become destitute. The system is designed to make
you a slave; and it rarely fails.

Young men, listen to the guys who live in hell on Earth. Divorce is not getting through hell, it is living in hell because when children are involved divorce does not end. People will tell you to “get over it” and rebuild a “new life,” but it is really not possible because your soul is not the same. I purposefully talk about this emotional destruction that occurs because “real men” usually won’t. They usually emphasize the financial aspects. But the financial aspects are peanuts compared with the emotional torture you must endure when children are involved.

Conclusion: Young men, I hope I deter at least a few of you from making the mistakes I did. In a way, this is my chance to be the caring father I was never allowed to be. Save your future children and save your happiness for another time and place.

Forget about game; forget about hookups; forget about real sex; Do not engage; I repeat, do not engage.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 1
walking in hell4 May 16, 2012 at 01:24

@Eric
“Which brings up a point ‘Walkinginhell’ just made. We all know the statistics for suicides among divorced men. How many suicides among single men do you suppose are connected with female abuse of some kind?”

I read somewhere that 1 out of 10 rate their marriages as happy. That is 10%. Pretty bleak.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0
andybob May 16, 2012 at 02:03

“How many times have we heard women say that if they could marry themselves, they would?” Eric

Imagine that. No pesky groom to share the spotlight. I wonder how long before she begins to nag herself to distraction. It’s just a matter of time before she calls the cops to have herself dragged away on false DV charges. After all, if she’s crazy enough to marry herself…

I would modify your assessment by suggesting that her narcissicism is so extreme that not even someone exactly like her can be good enough. She would something to bitch about – count on it.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0
bruno May 16, 2012 at 03:30

It’s useless to try to find a way to have a “safe” marriage.

There is none.

All the laws are stacked against you, marriage is a recepy for disaster.
In the best case, you will be able to avoid divorce, but you’ll be walking on eggs all your life, and looking back on your married life, you’ll realise how much you have lost, how much it has cost you financially and in general life-quality, and how much happier you could have been by staying a bachelor.
Not only marriage and divorce are specially designed to squeeze the money out of a man, all the laws about children are designed for that purpose too.
The same goes for social security and retirement.
And the law just reflects the true nature of man-women relationships.
In most case, the law tries to counter crime, but in the case of man-woman situations, the law supports crime: it actively supports and enables women to steal a man’s wealth.

Women are different from men.
In relationship with a man, for a woman, it’s NOT about love, romance or sex.
For a woman, it’s first and foremost about MONEY.
A woman will enter a marriage or a relationship ONLY when it is financially profitable for her.

The sooner a man understands this, the smaller the chance he will fall into the death-trap of marriage, parenthood or cohabitation.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2
bruno May 16, 2012 at 03:34

Have a vasectomy, stay bachelor, always be careful with women, and you’ll have the best life you can possibly have in this feminist dictatorship.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0
walking in hell May 16, 2012 at 04:09

I am sure everyone knows about the bachelor tax idea. It is not a new idea.

http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mens-general-discussion/4401-bachelor-tax-unveiled.html

You can expect as the birth rate goes down; child support collections go down; and guys begin to expatriate, there will be some kind of bachelor tax and the expatriation tax will increase.

France dealt with the problem by banning paternity testing:
http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?page=paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france

A few years ago I was speaking with a guy from Israel; he said that in Israel, every child must have a father assigned to it. This means that if the mother does not know who the child’s father is, or knows but does not want to tell who the father is, the government assigns the child to some random man. Then it is up to him to get out of the predicament.

The point is, sticking around the man-hating countries is very dangerous; somehow, someway, they will figure out a way to make you a slave and you will never see it coming. Celibacy and non-engagement are only a temporary self-preservation strategy while you are marooned in one of the man-hating countries.

I still believe the key is a long-term expat strategy to a country where you can get a second passport fast and that has a low and stable divorce rate and a culture of old-fashioned family values. Also a country that is not very evolved in its consumerism, and therefore not saturated with destabilizing propaganda that causes the wealth transfer to females and destroys the family. It leads me to believe Muslim, Spanish, and Asian countries are the best option for a man.

What do you guys thin?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1
meistergedanken May 16, 2012 at 04:56

I said it before here and I will say it again for the benefit of newcomers: if you want to protect and preserve your money/earnings/assets/wealth than purchase precious metals. NOW. Go out, and buy some gold. Once you have it, in your hand, you possess something that in every reasonable, foreseeable, scenario will retain value, is portable and – the most vital aspect – is extremely diffcult to trace.

It’s hard to overstate how important that last bit is. You can have a box of gold coins stashed somewhere and no one will know, rendering them safe from the unholy duo of government and soon-to-be ex-wife. Simply put, it’s hard to confiscate something of which you are unaware! How many wives know about all the investments and trades their husbands make? Ew – that stuff is boring! Once you get your gold, stick it in the garage or some spot in a cluttered basement, or under insulation in the attic. Hell, go the totally crazy route and bury it in the back yard. The wet ground isn’t going to hurt it.

Gold just had a really nice dip, hovering around $1600/oz. It’s not going to stay down there for long. Go out – now – and buy some. You have a $1600 cushion in you bank account? It’s a lot safer and smarter to go out and buy a one ounce coin. you just saved that money from inflation AND a women that could drain your account suddenly! You still have tens of thousands of dollars in mutual funds barely keeping up with inflation (if you’re lucky)? In stocks that might tank, or bonds that might get defaulted on? Cash out now, before the next market crash, and convert it to gold – it’s one of the only investments you can make that can be completely off the books. Still contributing regularly to your languishing 401(k)? Fuck that; take that money and buy gold or silver every month.

What, you don’t have $1600 lying around? Gold’s too expensive for you? Fine, buy a 1/2 ounce coin for $800. Still too much? Fine, buy a 1/4 ounce coin for $400 – they are out there if you look. This is practical, actionable advice. I am not saying this to boast, or act superior – I am saying it because I earnestly believe it will help the men here. I wish I had written this comment last night, so this wouldn’t be so far down the comment thread and more men would see it. [Ha Price, if you are not going to publish my article then maybe you can make this 'comment of the week'? :-) ]

Stop fucking around. Go out and buy some gold.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3
Rmaxd May 16, 2012 at 05:00

@WalkingInHell

Your comment should be an article on every single MRA Blog & forum …

“A few years ago I was speaking with a guy from Israel; he said that in Israel, every child must have a father assigned to it. This means that if the mother does not know who the child’s father is, or knows but does not want to tell who the father is, the government assigns the child to some random man. Then it is up to him to get out of the predicament.

The point is, sticking around the man-hating countries is very dangerous; somehow, someway, they will figure out a way to make you a slave and you will never see it coming. Celibacy and non-engagement are only a temporary self-preservation strategy while you are marooned in one of the man-hating countries.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
Rmaxd May 16, 2012 at 05:07

As WalkingInHEll says …

“Celibacy and non-engagement are only a temporary self-preservation strategy while you are marooned in one of the man-hating countries.”

Get the fuck out now guys, stop waiting for it to get worse, get out while you can

Expat, save up, eye up investments & holdings in foreign countries. buy cheap land on the side in a foreign country, save, get the hell out while you still can …

Civilisation is always about subjugation, progress & technology are its by-products

Socially approved slavery is the goal of every conservative & mainstream loving drone

Get the fuck out now, while you still can …

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
walking in hell May 16, 2012 at 05:12

Just some facts and figures to keep the pressure on the marriage and children strike. Something new: now the states will begin to seize ALL a man’s federal benefits (SS, Disability, etc) if he owes child support. This effectively renders him destitute. Also notable is the trend in making men pay child support to their step children or children to whom they are playing “daddy.”

Information and statistics:
50% of all American marriages end in divorce.

Divorce is initiated by the woman in 75% of all cases. She does not have to have any compelling reason to divorce.

Presumption of guilt is on the man. If the woman makes any type of emotional or physical abuse claim, the man will be removed from his home and children.

Nine out of ten times the children are given to the woman, no matter how good the man is.

If you fall behind in child support $2500, your passport is denied.

If you fall behind in child support $2500, you drivers license is revoked.

If you are behind on child support payments, you can go to jail.

If you have a history of falling behind on payments, you can be placed in prison. Prison sentences are now up to 20 years for child support issues.

Because you are in jail does not mean child support payments stop; on the contrary, while you are in jail your child support payments continue and arrears continue to build.

If your girlfriend or wife has children from a previous marriage, you can be sued for child support if you step in and play a father role to them.

In many states, interest is added to arrears at the rate of over 10 percent per year.

There is no statute of limitations for most child support payments.

If you lose your job and find a lesser paying job, the child support agencies will do their best to try to keep the child support payments the same.

Non-custodial parents (men) are around four times as likely to commit suicide than the rest of the male population, and around ten times more likely to commit suicide than the female population.

Men are not automatically entitled to a lawyer in a failure to pay child support court hearing.

On any given day, 50,000 men are in jail or prison for child support arrears.

Employers frown on wage garnishment; it is more work for them and they are less likely to hire a divorced man and more likely to exploit one because they know he is desperate.

As your children are stripped away from you and the relationship severed, you will be accused of abandoning your children.

States get matching funds from the federal government for every support order they issue; therefore there is a built-in economic incentive against family reconciliation and against shared custody and an economic incentive for divorce and sole physical custody.

If you have a child support arrears, a child support lien will be placed on your credit report which comes up on background checks rendering you much less employable.

Any type of depression or despondency is used against the man to further remove him from his children, causing yet more depression and despondency.

Ever wonder why there are so many homeless men? Do your own street interviews. Ask random homeless men if they ever went through a divorce or the child support system. Divorce is a/the major source of homelessness for men.

States are now openly debating denying food stamps for men who (can’t) pay child support, effectively starving them.

Your social security can be used for child support.

Your disability can be used for child support.

You can lose all Federal Benefits for child support.

A man with children in the USA is like a tightrope walker without netting: he is one mishap from death.

There is no group with fewer rights in America then divorced fathers.
Man sentenced to 20 years in prison for failure to pay child support.
http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=1403

You can lose all federal benefits if you owe child support
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poor-who-own-child-support-could-lose-federal-benefits/2012/02/26/gIQA4zilcR_story.html

How to kidnap a child
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/baskerville1.html

Woman exposes child support system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOC58c-Ibdk

Professor Stephen Baskerville exposes child support system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZzMNKqGfnc

No lawyer guaranteed for child support offenders
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44376665/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/unable-pay-child-support-poor-parents-land-behind-bars/

50,000 (mostly men) imprisoned for child support
http://purplemotes.net/2011/03/22/persons-in-jail-for-child-support-debt/

Man pays child support to step child
http://www.perkel.com/pbl/married/

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 0
bruno May 16, 2012 at 05:42

For those who think about ex-patting: China just changed divorce law so that it gets more difficult for the wife to steal the house in divorce.
(link from Angry Harry)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8857708/Chinas-divorce-rule-dubbed-Law-that-makes-men-laugh-and-women-cry.html

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0
NMH May 16, 2012 at 06:26

Dumb question from someone who has never been married: When a woman divorces you and “gets the house”, does that also mean that she pays the house mortgage, or is it she lives in the house and the divorced man (living elsewhere) pays for the mortgage in the house she lives in?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Rmaxd May 16, 2012 at 06:29

Excellent links by WalkingInHell ..

What Keyster & Rob & the rest of the conservatives will never tell you …

Feminism, Liberalism, Socialism, Anti-Racism, White Guilt, No Fault Divorce, Child Support, None-crime Debtors Prisons

Double think, Orwellian police states, Political Correctness, Surveillance Cameras

THEY ARE ALL FOR YOU

What we’re fighting isnt feminism, what we’re fight is socially approved slavery

Socially approved subjugation

What we’re fighting is a system designed for, a people to love their own enslavement

You can fight for free-speech, fight feminism all you want, until you see the fight for what it really is, all you’re doing is fighting ghosts

Remember it is men who build civilisations, making it imperative to enslave men, so they no longer build a greater civilisation exceeding the one we have now

We’ve had direct enslavement, direct dictatorships

We are now in the age of socially approved slavery

Approved by who?

Approved by your mothers, daughters, & sisters

& men who refuse to fight for their rights

In the 1500′s & 1800′s men rioted in the streets against the atrocities of the aristocrats, precisely because they knew their rights

Because they knew their rights, they had worth, they had something worth fighting

Today men dont even assert their rights over women & children

Men do this Precisely because they dont know theyre rights, so they dont have a cause worth fighting for

Fact :

Family courts are illegal, as they operate on hear say, not evidence, in small cases of physical abuse as exceptions

Child Support is illegal, as courts cannot convict or sentence where there is NO CRIME, a woman having a child is NOT A CRIME, it is a biological act & its the womans responsibilty for having the child in the first place

No Fault Divorce are illegal, as they illegally STEAL from husbands, a man or a woman leaving a marriage IS NOT A CRIME, courts have NO PLACE handing women a mans property & the money he’s spent his entire life earning, what the courts are doing is ILLEGAL, they have NO LEGAL STANDING in stealing from men, if a woman wants to leave a marriage

Domestic Abuse & Rape Charges are ILLEGAL, as men are presumed guilty before proving innocence

Whats even worse, unless theres DIRECT EVIDENCE, which is RARE, theres NEVER any evidence used by the scum police to convict men of domestic abuse & rape charges

Men are jailed & raped in court, wholesale

Whats even worse men allow themselves to be put on sexual deviancy lists & community lists, for crimes with no evidence

ALL of the above occurs, PRECISELY because men do not know their rights

Whats even worse, scum like Keyster & Rob, call ACTIVISTS who DO KNOW THEIR RIGHTS, as none-achieving

Conservatives & mainstream loving drones like Keyster & Rob KNOW its precisely because of ppl like them, we are the state we are today

Know your rights, exercise them

Know your rights against the police, know your rights againsts the courts

Know your rights against the family courts

Know your rights against the Divorce courts who would strip you of your gains & property

Know your rights against the scum lawyers who dont want you to know your rights

If you dont know your rights, you do not have a cause worth fighting for

Because EVEN if you win, you will not know how to exercise the benefits of that win

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 4
greyghost May 16, 2012 at 06:38

One of the things I see as a good focus of activism is in areas to enhance MGTOW. Rather than being an activist for family court reform be an activist on hgetting a male birth control pill. Russian has a negative population growth issue due to low birh rate. Russia could follow China’s lead and masculine base it’s cultural order to give huge incentive for male productivity. A lot of very educated new creative blood from western countries can expat to country’s like that and vastly increase the wealth of those nations directly with money they bring with them and indirectly with creative talent brought with them. All with no cost or finamcial investment of the host country.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2
Rmaxd May 16, 2012 at 06:57

@NMH

“NMH May 16, 2012 at 06:26

Dumb question from someone who has never been married: When a woman divorces you and “gets the house”, does that also mean that she pays the house mortgage, or is it she lives in the house and the divorced man (living elsewhere) pays for the mortgage in the house she lives in?”

No, YOU PAY FOR EVERYTHING

You pay for the house, the mortgage & ANY associated loans & debts, YOU

Welcome to socially approved slavery, socially approved by your mothers, daughters, & sisters, & manginas everywhere …

There are ways to prevent getting ass-raped in divorce

Sell your house & all investments & move over-seas before the divorce

In fact my advice would be, to avoid the divorce courts & just move

One day, sell everything & move

That way the courts get nothing, & her lawyers get nothing, but a pissed off empty handed gold digger

Seriously all you married men out there, thinking of expatting, this is how you do it

Move out of your house, tell her you’re moving out to get a bigger house

Sell the house, transfer it over seas & one day you & all your belongings are gone …

All this shit about divorce courts is easily avoidable, if you’re going to expat or MGTOW anyway, sell your property & go

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
walking in hell May 16, 2012 at 07:02

@GREYGHOST
“One of the things I see as a good focus of activism is in areas to enhance MGTOW. Rather than being an activist for family court reform be an activist on hgetting a male birth control pill.”

There are so many issues one hardly knows where to start. Here are the top three as I see them, only because they result in so many men thrown into prison or slavery.

1) Child custody, child support, alimony reform.
2) Judicial reform: DVA, false rape charges, outrageous number of men in prison.
3) Government benefits reform: why should a woman who lives much longer, get to retire earlier. If anything women should have to work longer because the collect longer.

My guess is that if there is male contraception, some company will take care of that. It is really not a public policy issue, at least not yet.

But you are right about other countries sucking up creative talent and becoming rich with it. I don’t think America will be able to attract as much creative talent with a culture that is anti-family and anti-man. Truly, the country is doomed. It is just a matter of time.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
greyghost May 16, 2012 at 07:04

NMH
Dumb question from someone who has never been married: When a woman divorces you and “gets the house”, does that also mean that she pays the house mortgage, or is it she lives in the house and the divorced man (living elsewhere) pays for the mortgage in the house she lives in?
Each case maybe different usuaally she will live in the house and they will just set child support up to a level the covers the house along with the father carrying the children on his employer health care etc. The mortgage will still be in the fathers name and what usually happens mom will marry and move off with some guy and sell the house and take the money for herself or just abandon the home because it is in his name as a legal debt. Even if a judge put it in the divorce papers that she was to pay the mortgage it is like everything else not enforced. The only reason she will pay it is so it won’t get repoed by the bank. This happens a lot with cars and credit card debt. During the divorce (no children) the charade of splitting assets is played with the agreement that she and you will make the payments on anything you take with you. If the original debt was on his credit and reporting she ain’t paying for shit. You can have all of the court orders you want nobody will enforce it. Now if it is in her name they may just say it belongs to her period (funny how that works) A guy stops making payments and the chick goes to court some kind of action will be taken.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1
walking in hell May 16, 2012 at 07:13

@Rmaxd

“What we’re fighting isnt feminism, what we’re fight is socially approved slavery

Socially approved subjugation

What we’re fighting is a system designed for, a people to love their own enslavement”

Yep, socially approved slavery. At the moment the scapegoat is the man. He vilified as the “dead beat dad,” the “sex offender,” the “rapist,” the “domestic terrorist.” He is the “nigger;” the “Jew” of the 21st century. All this in order to get females to support and vote for the man’s further enslavement. Given the female mindset and amoral nature, that is an easy goal to accomplish. Our captors are our mothers, sisters, and wives colluding with other amoral men.

Socially approved slavery.

Invisible slavery.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1
greyghost May 16, 2012 at 07:32

walking in hell
Women control the vote. we moust find a way to really hurt women with their own hand. Wopmen are very child like and selfish. and based on how the laws are written and enforced women like the title of motherhood and government enforced entitlement. The total aversion to responsibility is incredable. And is why MGTOW and the grass eaters are such a threat. Men are extremely vulnerable to love and the basic natural sex drive. That is when you can trap him. The lies of manning up shame,NAWALT, the churchianity shit we see today (Dalrock is working on that) are all to get a man into the system. Women are even using forge documents to get ex hubbies sperm at sperm banks to get pregnant and are collecting. A male pill will get a young man through that extremely vulnerable time period. The trick is to get as many women as possible past her fertility years childless and unentitled. This will be a 10 to 20 year process getting it off the ground will be the work and the inertia of misandry will carry it forward.
Lets say every major university has 9-10 pregnancies a year from future pro athletes and engineer types. depending on where they are some of those guys will drop out to pay CS. Now make that number 0 to 1 and mutiply that by a nation. With marriage rates what they are lets say all child births out of wedlock are reduced to 10 to 15 percent instead of the 50% and more we have today. All of those planned single mothers doesn’t happen and let’s get 50 to 60 percent of those into infertility. As an MRA that is my goal. Keyster is right women will be the ones that remove the laws of misandry. From the CS laws VAWA that IMBREA law, title IX etc etc. Knowing the feral nature of women they just need a selfish reason to get it done.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2
greyghost May 16, 2012 at 07:38

This article is where fear and panic live for a woman also check the comments and the stories of the lonely elderly woman dying alone
http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/04/26/3916368/fort-worth-hospital-works-to-make.html#tvg

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
W.F. Price May 16, 2012 at 07:49

Price:
No, I moved here from Nevada during the mid-90s. I spent most of my youth in Missouri, but I was born in Illinois.

-Eric

Quite a change in venue from Missouri to Seattle. Seattle’s got its upsides, but the politics here are pretty loony sometimes. Feminism is gospel in King County, and has spawned a cottage industry of corruption in the local family courts.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
Kyo May 16, 2012 at 09:44

Troll King,

Excellent series of posts, and though I’m in my mid-30s, I experienced just about all the same things growing up in the ’80s and ’90s as well.

I want to make one point, though: in 2012 we really need to revise the “raised in divorce culture” age group to perhaps 40 or so. In a sense this is just hair-splitting, but on the other hand, I think it’s important to really understand just how long this has been going on because we’re now at a point where half the population has never experienced a pro-marriage, non-feminist society. If humans live to about 80, even if the population remains steady, the median person’s age is 40, and since the population is growing somewhat, the median age is probably around 37 or so.

Roe vs. Wade was 1973, wasn’t it? If we take this as the point when unrestrained sluttiness became possible and became the norm, that’s already 38 years. No-fault divorce is similar; as a child in the ’80s far more of my friends had divorced parents than married ones, and that has held true ever since then but was false just ten years before.

That means that it’s not just “youth” or “younger people” who are disaffected by the changes in society over the last four decades: it’s the entire bottom half of the USA, and soon the inability to return to the “good old days” will be complete, because already, most people know nothing else.

This is where the whole crux of the matter lies: for post-1973 people, “I want to get married and happily raise my kids” is like “I want to be a professional athlete” or “I want to be a multi-millionaire” — whether or not you can have it is beyond your control, regardless of how much you may “want” it and how much effort you might put into achieving it.

Since the 1970s, the only marriages that last are the ones that the wives specifically want to last. The only babies that are born are the ones that women specifically want to be born. And the only happy fathers are the ones who managed to be lucky on both of those two points.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0
ahamkara May 16, 2012 at 10:09

This stuff is painful to read, but true.

I managed to get my ex-wife to agree to a 50/50 custody deal after 16 months in court. It cost me $30K up front in legal fees and a settlement deal, and I will pay over $100K in child support by the time it’s done. I’m fucking broke and this could all fall apart with the least bit of bad luck.

This was a huge success, by any standard of modern marriage. So, what pieces of advice can I offer to young men who insist on trying to navigate the hell of modern marriage, no matter how many horror stories they hear? Here are the things that made a difference for me:

1) Have a war chest that you can pay the lawyers with, something she can’t touch. This could be premarital assets (if they’re protected in your state), a trust, gold coins in a safe, there have been many workable suggestions here. Whatever it is, you have to be able to look your wife in the eye and tell her that she is in for a long, hard legal battle if she tries to take your children away from you – and you have to mean it. It took me $30K up front but I’d recommend at least $50K. I was lucky.
2) Spend a lot of time with the children – more than she does. I didn’t do this, but I came close. I spent 8 months caring for my daughter full-time when she was a baby while my wife worked; this made a huge difference. When it comes time to argue custody your lawyer will ask you questions like “who buys their clothes… who goes to their doctors’ appointments… who talks to their teachers…” you have to be able to answer “me” to all of those questions, and know all the details.
3) Have a flexible job, one that allows you to do (2) and one that will allow you to adjust your schedule to whatever her demands might be in a custody arrangement. This fits in well with the suggestions of self-employment and such that have been made here. A large faceless corporation will not do this for you.
4) Have very low expectations of what life will be like after your divorce. No hobbies, no dating, get used to eating peanut butter and rice. But if you have a meaningful relationship with your kids, it will be worth it.

Basically all of these things point to being older and more established in your career before you marry. This all also assumes that you have married the most pure, chaste, honest woman you have ever met in your life (that is what I did). She’ll still fuck you over but she might not pull a false abuse charge on you.

That’s all I’ve got. Like I say it could fall apart at any moment but I think it’s about the best one can do.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 3
MRA May 16, 2012 at 10:37

Don’t forget to mention about hiding assets from your spouse, since the family law started to take a man property from him, many men tried to put some of their belongings on papers where the spouse couldn’t tush them, but now you have women magazines, lawyers and judges making advising women on how to get the assets,

Here Uncle Elmer commented

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jefflanders/2012/03/14/divorcing-women-heres-where-husbands-typically-hide-assets/

One of the many tricks men in Latin America do is put their belonging on their fathers or brothers name for a certain time then after this time passed the assets come back to the men who buy them or can extend the time again, in case of divorce the wife can’t tush the assets if it ss on her ‘s husband’s brothers/fathers name.

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greyghost May 16, 2012 at 11:18

Get to know Craigslist and ebay as places to buy and sell. Having a friend network and places to keep things like cars a large items hat can be sold. Also learn about off books craft trades to earn off books income as a helper on say a remodelling job on a house.

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meistergedanken May 16, 2012 at 11:38

Ahamkara wrote: “Have a war chest that you can pay the lawyers with, something she can’t touch. This could be premarital assets (if they’re protected in your state), a trust, gold coins in a safe…”

MRA wrote: “Don’t forget to mention about hiding assets from your spouse, since the family law started to take a man property from him…”

See my comment on gold above! [and yet some douche downvoted me - WTF?]

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ahamkara May 16, 2012 at 11:45

@mesitergedanken

I mentioned the gold coins just because you did, I actually know nothing about gold. I mentioned the trust because a couple other folks mentioned them, I don’t know much about those either.

But whatever it is, money in your mattress, offshore accounts, whatever, it just has to be something that’s out of her reach.

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Anonymous May 16, 2012 at 11:52

To Troll King,

I am old, but I do know a lot of what young men go through. I have sons that are going through the same mill I went through in divorce. The mother of my last two died young and I raised them pretty much by myself, so I have had all the insights into how totally misandrous the schools have become. I had to fight tooth and nail for my sons, and mostly lost. I had to deal with the Ritalin prescription for my oldest son and lose, because his mother bought into it. Fathers have no say over most things dealing with their children. I thanked god almost every day while raising my last two sons that I had no woman that could gain say me or take away my children on her whim. It sounds terrible to be thankful that my wife, who I loved, died, but that is the reality we live in.

As to recommending a path and providing guidance on what to do rather than what not to do, sorry, it is too late. There is no way I know of for a young man to succeed in marriage and kids. I try to advise my sons to not get involved with American women. I advise them to get out of this country and see what is available elsewhere. I am sorry to tell you that that is the only “good” advice to be had.

As to the bachelor tax not being new; it was put in place by Caesar Augustus about 2,000 years ago in Rome. I do not know that this was the first time it was put in place, but it is the oldest I know of.

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Ethical May 16, 2012 at 12:21

@Troll King

Firstly I very much appreciated your comments as a sampling of the younger demographic.

What I meant in referring to your “half thought through ideas” is that you were so focused on saying that you didn’t need to be told what you already knew that you missed the fact that there were some things you seemed clearly mistaken on:

1. A significant number of young men are unaware that they can’t avoid divorce horror stories just by finding the right woman and having the GAME to get her. It’s the LAW that’s the problem.

2. Whether or not you adopt the strategies provided in the article the considerations are applicable to ALL young men because even though you may not want to marry now, being hopeful about the future is a basic component of happiness, so when you meet the right someone who makes you happy you may still find yourself thinking about marriage despite all the risks. A significant number of men in your age bracket will marry.

3. Many young men will (as you did) dismiss any message targeted at them because it appears to be more of the same “whining” they’ve already heard or because it doesn’t appear relevant to their situation at this specific moment. Both reasoning’s significantly increase the difficulty of getting ANY message across. Some of the things I’m advising you consider, like protecting yourself financially, are things you need to do well before any relationship. You won’t see the need to do any of these things until it’s too late if you’ve dismissed the message as irrelevant to you.

4. I completely understand that an increasing number of young men “get” the fact that divorce laws are anti-men and that society is misandrist. In fact you responded to one of my comments a few weeks back where I said something to the tune of: “increasingly I’m seeing that younger men get it”. The fact is however even though young men “get it” they’re also more likely to be dismissive of any attempt to propose a potential solution. Case in point: you wrote a long post dismissing what I said as “more of the same that you’ve heard from many other MRAs”. If it’s more of the same that you agreed with you could have just simply said “I agree”. If there were specific points you disagreed with you could have mentioned those. Instead you replied at length dismissing the article because none of this applied to you since you’ve “heard it all before”.

Everyone hasn’t “heard it all before” because significant numbers of men are still getting caught by all these traps. Yet many men in general and young men in particular habitually dismiss an entire MRA message if a small part is inapplicable to them. In your case this dismissiveness completely derailed focus from the key point of the article, which was that we all need to work on discovering practical solutions to protect ourselves and then to spread that knowledge. There is a complete popular media blackout on these topics. You will only find them in the manosphere.

This particular part of the MRM is about winning hearts and minds so that other parts of the MRM can mobilize those hearts and minds to change legislation. I can’t say it enough but the LAW is behind all the problems with feminism that you see. Much of what you hear will have been said before but it bears repeating for new ears. It’s important for us all to look for what we agree with so we can move forward rather than continually searching for what we disagree with and dismissing the argument wholesale so we have to start again from scratch.

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anonymous x May 16, 2012 at 13:31

There was a brief discussion upthread about dancing and women who insist on leading. I like to dance, at my age I don’t run into so many of those women, most women like to be led believe it or not. But for those who won’t follow, be gentle at first, most of the time they will get the hint. For those who won’t get the hint, I call them on it good. Politely but firmly. And then keep leading. Holding frame is vitally important in dancing.

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Eric May 16, 2012 at 16:42

FFP:
‘How do you like #1? Especially the part about kicking the woman back into the work force just 3 months after she’s given birth…but these guys will insist that she contribute financially instead of mothering.’

To be honest, I disagree with that point and don’t believe personally that the wife needs to be contributing anything financially. Her job is to maintain the house and raise the children, not to be running around in the workforce taking a job from a deserving man.

But, paradoxically, the minute a man says what I just did, you feminists jump in and scream about ‘domestic slavery’ and other nonsense. You’re the ones who are always complaining that women shouldn’t be financially dependent on a man (although that feminist position is always swept under the rug in divorce court); and should have careers and not be ‘chained to a diaper bag’. (although that argument goes under the rug too when employers talk about compensation for maternity-leave).

The ‘Supermom’ is as much of a hoax as ‘the Divine Feminine’. If men were running around with the kinds of Superiority Complexes women routinely demonstrate, you girls would be expatting instead of us.

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Eric May 16, 2012 at 17:10

Price:
This area probably has more weirdoes and outright douchebags per square foot than any place I’ve ever been. As far as I know, Seattle is the only area whose Congressman is a former psychiatrist—which shows which profession the locals think best represents their interests.

The local government is also under the thumb of a bunch of fruitcakes. Most of the City Council act like they were former patients of the psychiatrist/Congressman.

You’re right about Feminism being the unofficial religion of King County. If it weren’t for the influx of Asians we have here, the dating scene wouldn’t even exist.

The city does do one thing well: it has one of the most efficient disinformation and propaganda machines going to conceal the reality of living here. Seattle’s advertised as a tolerant, progressive place with an lively singles’ scene. The reality is that it’s an over-priced ghetto with no economic infrastructure; a culture steeped in political correctness; a mecca for bums and drug-dealers; and a social scene completely geared to homosexuals and the drug-culture.

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Eric May 16, 2012 at 20:03

Greyghost:
You’re right about expatting. Most of those foreign governments aren’t as stupid as ours. They realize that the Americans who are coming into their countries are going to be a net benefit since they’re the ones actively trying to escape American decline. The welfare-slugs and the wire-pullers who are profiting of the decline has no interest in expatting; and the foreign countries don’t want them anyway.

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walking in hell May 17, 2012 at 00:55

“I thanked god almost every day while raising my last two sons that I had no woman that could gain say me or take away my children on her whim. It sounds terrible to be thankful that my wife, who I loved, died, but that is the reality we live in. ”

It does not sound terrible at all. It is a telling sign of the times when a man rejoices that his wife died so he could have the chance to be a father. I hope the world read this post.

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Ted May 17, 2012 at 04:08

Compare and contrast

“It is a telling sign of the times when a man rejoices that his wife died”

with

“It sounds terrible to be thankful that my wife, who I loved, died,”
————-
“I hope the world read this post.”

I bet you do.

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LBK May 17, 2012 at 05:38

Getting married is a very bad choice. It is better to stay single. Disconnect from women and this feminized society. There is no point in working hard to buy a bunch of stuff you don’t need. Learn to live simply, relax, and enjoy life. If women want a bunch of useless expensive junk, let them earn it themselves. It is not your job to provide it for them.

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greyghost May 17, 2012 at 09:02

Ethical
1. A significant number of young men are unaware that they can’t avoid divorce horror stories just by finding the right woman and having the GAME to get her. It’s the LAW that’s the problem.

That comment you made is the bases for the MRM and any developed manifesto of sort to come from our discussions here has to be based on that solid foundation of truth. With that the majority of mens blogs are while good for the spirit and good for getting the red pill they do not change human nature and the law. When enough men get to the point that the comment you made above is a known fact we must as leaders by default advance the conversation to viable action.
Men that find out about it being in the kaw before they are emotional ready and at an extremely stresed point in their lives are the murder, and murder/suicide participants. Some men were dead the day they met little pmpkin 8 years ago. They spend all of those years and effort making a family and slowly realizing something isn’t right and they just keep digging them selves in deeper. When family law come in the lie says he has rights and he falsely thinks they give a damn about his efforts to please his family and society. His last act is to reveal the size and quality of the hole he has dug for himself in the name of a good christian family man. The law looks at him and looks at the wife and she gives the nod. The court then orders throw him in. Ironicly the the harder he worked and the more he gave out of love and duty the bigger and deeper the hole. All men have this hole, now day it predug while in the womb. I’m married with kids and I have been filling mine in. Hard to do while still married.
The bottomline is it is in the law. There is no good women and ever if you think you have found one you will always have to live with a gun to your head. There is not that much pleasure in the world.

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Anonymous age 70 May 17, 2012 at 09:09

@AfOR May 15, 2012 at 17:53

>>These “step changes” in society that you hear us older guys talk about ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS coincide with some change in the law, whether it is abortion laws, or child welfare laws or divorce laws of domestic violence laws, but it takes about a decade AFTER each change for the fire to start burning, and a decade after THAT for it to get out of control.

To understand why those who say women are the same everywhere are not exactly correct, you must understand this posting of AfOR.

With one additional bit of information, this is probably one of the most important postings in a long time, to help you understand why feminism takes over some societies. And, why it is impossible for feminism to take over other societies.

For any feminist law to empower women so they will toss out a perfectly good husband, they need a major back-up plan before they pull the trigger. While there will always be hot babes who can pull in Mr. Big Bux, for most women in most feminist societies, the government welfare system IS the backup plan!

We are products of our cultures. Women raised in a culture where there is a backup plan no matter how badly they behave, will tend to behave badly. Women raised in a culture where bad things happen to bad women will tend to behave not so badly overall.

I can only write with personal knowledge about the US and Mexico, but from reports by other men, virtually all the Anglosphere has a welfare system, and they have a misandrist culture, where women are taught that men are options at their whim.

And, in poor nations where a government welfare system is not possible, men are not treated so badly. For example, in Mexico, there are feminist laws, thanks to to the Marxist party. Those laws have little effect, because women need men if they expect to have children and feed them. There is not a welfare system, and financially it is impossible there will be one in the foreseeable future. Women in Mexican cities see women with kids begging on the streets, when they walk to the market to buy food. They don’t dump their husbands for boredom when they fear they will be begging on the street.

You can be sure it is the same in nations which are even poorer, such as Honduras; perhaps Colombia; El Salvador; and more. Brazil is allegedly pretty bad. I do not know about the Philippines, though they do not even have divorce at all. Belize is part of the Anglosphere.

@gunner451 May 15, 2012 at 15:38

>>Going over seas is fast becoming a non-option as the feminist disease is rapidly spreading to all corners of the globe, there may be some unspoiled places yet but even if there are you’d have to find a way to live over there as the minute you brought her back here the feminist corruption process would begin.

Most of this posting is right on, just not the part of going overseas as a non-option. You do need a way to support yourself overseas, and not everyone can do that, and bringing them back, while the odds of divorce are around half of that married to an AW, is still a bad idea. See the first part of this posting for why saying it is a non-option is wrong.

@Troll King May 15, 2012 at 16:08

>>So then we are told to go overseas. We are told then that women are the same everywhere.

The men who say that are just being traditional men. The men’s movement has been active for the entire 45 years of extremist feminism, but men are so quarrelsome that no one can actually accomplish anything**. Men who say women are the same everywhere are just Blowing Smoke, and in most cases, really haven’t spent any serious amount of time “everywhere.” They visit a country or countries not noted for being male-friendly, then conclude all other nations must be the same. Or, perhaps they respond to articles written by feminist journalists who are successfully writing bogus propaganda to convince uninformed men there is no benefit from expatting.

** In my opinion, the avoidance of marriage is accomplishing a lot. It may or may not cause laws to be changed, but every man who avoids marriage is one less man to have his life destroyed by the wonderful American Women. Sarcasm intended.

As far as a number of negative comments about older men, my generation spent a lot of time telling younger men about the dangers and evils of laws concerning marriage. Those who said we never warned them simply did not listen to us. I was writing op-eds to not only my local newspaper, but others all over the country as early as 1978 and I was in contact with men from NYC to Seattle who were doing the same thing.

Men who have not personally swallowed the red pill tend to pay no attention to any warnings from older men. Then, when they get the red pill shoved up certain body orifices they imagine no one warned them.

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Anonymous age 70 May 17, 2012 at 09:15

Let me repeat something I have said many times. Even living in Mexico, I do not recommend a legal marriage. In my village, a very high percentage of couples are what I call private marriages. Here they call it Free Union. The couple decrees itself as married, don’t need no stinkin’ government nor church to be married. The difference between that and shacking up is the couple and everyone else here in Mexico view them as really married. Shack ups will tell you they are not married.

The cost of a dissolved Free Union is very low, and women realize it, thus they are not usually the thugs we expect in the US.

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Ethical May 17, 2012 at 11:03

FFP said:
‘How do you like #1? Especially the part about kicking the woman back into the work force just 3 months after she’s given birth…but these guys will insist that she contribute financially instead of mothering.’

Eric responded:
“To be honest, I disagree with that point and don’t believe personally that the wife needs to be contributing anything financially. Her job is to maintain the house and raise the children, not to be running around in the workforce taking a job from a deserving man”.

@Eric
I would prefer to have a stay at home wife too, at least while the kids are young. But the article was about risk mitigation, my point was that in divorce court a stay at home mom is incredibly dangerous.

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Dave May 18, 2012 at 22:04

I laugh when I read what governments now do to “deadbeat dads”, because it smacks of utter desperation. With all the levers of government power (jail, licensing, welfare, the banks, and the media) at their disposal, feminists are losing this war nonetheless. Smashing families and stripping assets destroys the economy’s ability to create wealth, so men lose their jobs, deficits explode, and the end draws nigh.

Soon the government will be broke, millions of women will lose their welfare benefits, millions more will lose their government-subsidized jobs in education, social work, and health care, and violent crime will surge as police budgets are slashed. Hungry, terrified single mothers will beg their ex-husbands to protect them, or at least take the kids.

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Joe May 19, 2012 at 08:43

“Smashing families and stripping assets destroys the economy’s ability to create wealth, so men lose their jobs, deficits explode, and the end draws nigh.”

Unfortunately that’s not just a by-product of fanaticism. That’s a deliberate policy. Feminism is a means to that end. Just as it’s a means to justify wars overseas.

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Jerry1476 May 21, 2012 at 16:40

Bozeman
You are the man , that is exactly what is happening. Big Daddy government run by feminazis ans manginas are destroying thier own civilization by bancrupting it. Soon the warrior class will return. Term limits, a marriage strike and anonymity are needed. The children will suffer but the state will self destruct and the children are internally suffering now. This is all unfortunate but necessary. People will think you are mean spirited but I say we must all become brave . There also must be non violent non cooperation. No marriages .
Its already started but the snow ball effect will soon occur. Keep up the good work MEN.

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Al Thompson May 23, 2012 at 10:21

It seems to me that there are no “laws” regarding the state having to sanction any marriage. What gives the “state” the authority over marriage? A man and a woman are supposed to spend their lives together once they make a commitment to be man and wife. The “state”
is a major problem is it does not justify its existence.

The problem is that young people are afraid to be married because they are concerned about possible fallout later on. One solution to this problem is for any couple to simply agree on being husband and wife and leave the state out of it.

The state treats people as if they are livestock, so the status of men, women, and children are that as slaves. The “state” takes 50% of a middle class income, the “state” starts the wars and then kills and maims young men and women, the “state” establishes a crappy socialist economic system, and of course, the “state” brainwashes the children into their statist drivel.

Best thing to do in my opinion is to not allow yourself or your family to every be any part of the “state” if you can avoid it.

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Cowboy Knight May 26, 2012 at 22:58

As an ordained minister who has officiated weddings I recommend that men do not enter into a contract with the state. A marriage license is a contract with your wife’s real husband (i.e., the state).

A marriage takes place when both parties agree that they are married. Are marriages that took place before marriage licenses were invented somehow invalid? No. The state does not marry or divorce anyone. They only recognize your intent and pretend that you need their permission. Stop falling for government hypnosis that gives your wife’s real husband power over you.

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