Review: Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Life

by Featured Guest on May 7, 2011

By Frost

I didn’t expect to find Athol Kay’s book, Married Man Sex Life particularly interesting.

I’ve read enough books, blogs and forums to say that I understand game and evolutionary psychology pretty much from ass to elbow. Furthermore, Athol’s specialty is relationship game – i.e., getting girls to treat you like gold – which is a skill set I have mastered more than any other. Roosh, Krauser, et al. are probably more effective than I am in the club or on the street, but when it comes to juggling close, loving, but non-monogamous relationships, I’ll go toe-to-toe with them or anyone else, any day of the week.

So while I think Athol’s a great writer, and I’ve always had a lot of respect for his work, I wasn’t expecting to pick up MMSL and have my mind blown.

To an extent, I was right. I learned very little from Athol about Game and the biological origins of human behaviour. Most of my readers probably won’t either, as MMSL derives much of its content from principles that are common knowledge within the Roissysphere. (To his great credit, Athol acknowledges the impolite and un-PC Roissy extensively, even though he probably could have saved himself many headaches by limiting his citations to more palatable sources.)

But whether I learned a lot or a little from MMSL is not a fair test of the book’s quality, because Athol is not writing for jaded twenty-five year old rogues for whom marriage is out of the question. Rather, as the title suggests, he is writing for the married man. And for the most part, he is writing for the beta-ized married man, who needs to step up and inject some Alpha into his relationship.

So let’s talk about my Dad.

My father is without question my #1 hero and role model in life. I will resist the urge to turn this book review into a 20,000 word post on why.

But per the zeitgeist within which he was raised, he is imbued with a strong and irrational desire to pedestalize and submit to the women he dates. He is what the PUA community would call a natural, but his instincts have always been to address problems in a relationship with conciliation. Athol would have no trouble identifying him as a man with excellent game, but who sabotages his relationship with women via excessively beta “Nice Guy” behaviours.

When I started reading Roissy, Roosh, Fast Seduction, and the major texts of evolutionary psychology, I also made a hobby of proselytizing my newfound truths to those close to me. I sent my father many Roissy posts; I left Sperm Wars at his reading table; I did my youthful best to explain to him the principles of game, the Alpha/Beta dichotomy, and my relationship management strategies. My favourite analogy to draw was from our recent foray into Cesar Milan and his dog training philosophy of becoming the pack leader. His reply: “So you’re saying we should treat women like dogs?” Marketing was not one of my earlier strengths.

More recently, I started sending him posts from Athol’s blog.

My father never told me, outright, that he had read them. But one day, he made a comment that I recognized as straight from the MMSL playbook. We weren’t even talking about women. Our dog was misbehaving, and he grinned and said, “Maybe I need to be acting more alpha, less beta with him.”

I called him out on actually reading something I’d sent him, and he admitted it. We had a long talk about Game, Alpha behaviours, and de-pedestalizing women.

When Athol sent me a review copy of MMSL, I gave it my Dad. He read it cover to cover. He had barely looked at anything I’d sent him about Game before that. Since then, we’ve had conversations in which he’s confessed to doubting some of his longest-held beliefs. He admits the harm his irrational desire to serve women has caused him in his past. He is more comfortable about acknowledging the legitimacy of pursuing his own happiness within his relationship, rather than just his partners. And he has acknowledged that yes, my very not-nice approach towards getting and keeping women might be a valid one.

But while progress can be made, there are some habits that can never be unlearned. My father will never be me. He will always be 90% Nice Guy. But Athol Kay did more to encourage that crucial 10% of change with one book, than I have in a near-decade of haranguing, book-buying and link-forwarding.

So why did MMSL succeed where so many before have failed?

The distinguishing feature of Athol’s book and blog, is his inherent relatability to men with Nice Guy syndrome. There are a lot of men in the world who are instantly repelled by the teachings of the Roissysphere, even though they desperately need its advice. Athol Kay is the ambassador who is distilling those truths into a medium that can be digested, even by men still firmly ensconced in the matrix. His most remarkable achievement is that he has somehow done so without watering them down with pretty lies.

Athol succeeds at delivering his message because is not a smooth pickup artist. He’s just a regular nice guy – who also has a great family and bangs his wife eight days a week. Recovering nice guys will listen to Athol, because they see themselves in him – a better version of themselves.

When I came of age, I had the realities of Roissy, Style and Tucker Max to compare against the conventional wisdom that men should be nice, and if that’s not enough, well gawsh, they just need to be nicer. I easily concluded that the latter philosophy was crap, and the former had the answers I needed. I faced no obstacles to becoming the cynical realist that I am today.

My father was raised in an era without such resources. He drank the feminist Kool-Aid, and sought to create an equal partnership in his relationships, and eventually marriage. The results would not have surprised Athol, Roissy, or myself circa 2011. But they surprised our family, as we went through a decade of experiences that read like a Men’s Rights Advocacy pamphlet. Thankfully, our story ends with my father, my siblings and I living healthy, happy, successful lives. But while reading Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Life, I caught myself wondering: What if Athol had published his book twenty years ago? And my father had found it then?

For many of my readers, the idea of marriage ranges from unthinkable to unlikely. But we are a rare minority in a world full of men and families who will be destroyed by their failure to implement the ideas in MMSL. I think Athol’s book is going to save thousands from the fate that my family suffered. I suggest you search your life for people you care about, and add their names to that list.

Buy Married Man Sex Life at Amazon, or visit the website here.

{ 40 comments… read them below or add one }

AfOR May 7, 2011 at 11:07

Don’t tell me, NAWALT…. you and this guy found “good” wimminz…

you can lead a horse to water etc

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 11
oddsock May 7, 2011 at 11:57

Hmmmm. First off, an interesting post. I can identify with your father as I am sure will many others. You see, the problem IMHO was not just simply being raised with all the ideas about feminism and equality. I believe much more damage and confusion was caused by mothers and society in general by training/programming boys to always be polite helpful gentleman etc. You know? Generally an all round nice guy. plus having a father that was already well into his servitude as a role model. Add to that the further programming of getting a good education and job so I could become a responsible protective provider for ” MY” family. It was all a feckin lie, a huge lemon. I now realize I was just simply being trained for serfdom. The feminism bit just sealed the serfdom deal. I was much the same as you described your father, excellent game but also very much the nice guy.

By the way. I do not think we should differentiate feminism and women. Both camps equally exploit men, just different tactics.

Now, having said all that, and seeing as I have almost depleted and drained me bags of a mans quota of Jizzum. I still prefer to remain polite when I can and I cannot see why I would need to put on some so called Alpha act or Game ( pretend ) just to have what is ultimately a false relationship with a female Adult child. That would be draining and far too time consuming for a dude my age. Plus, I just can’t be arsed having to bang away like a fiddlers elbow every day. They really are very much the same when the lights are out.

Perhaps the book would have been of much benefit to me as a young stud muffin ? Perhaps it would have had very little effect on my years of indoctrination ? Who knows ?

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Gendeau May 7, 2011 at 12:24

The book,to be fair, is about married men’s sex life..written by a married man who seems to be enjoying it (so far) and his wife too (so far).

Too late for “don’t do it, it’s a trap”. (My line of choice).
“No point”. (Pretty much sums up where I am).

It’s about the man making the best of it and presumably reducing the liklihood of divorce rape.

I liked the by-the-way anecdote of the reviewer’s dad – nice to know that some hope remains, whatever the age and length of indoctrination.

As long as so-trad-cons don’t use it to persuade men that it is safe to enter the shark infested waters from the beach covered with half eaten remains of men, I have no problem with it.

I might even mentioning it to some married suc…friends

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Gendeau May 7, 2011 at 12:26

If only I had some days as a stud-muffin to look back on like Oddsock…sigh

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oddsock May 7, 2011 at 12:52


“If only I had some days as a stud-muffin to look back on like Oddsock…sigh”

And I wish I had learned the truth about women much younger. I would have been a very wealthy guy and not had my head and heart put through the mincer a few too many times.

Some proof of the pudding so to speak. The more I became jaded the more not giving a feckness towards women I displayed the more minge was offered. A good friend of mine once described me to a T. He was an out an out bad boy PUA by the way. He compared me to a premier league football team that was always at the bottom of the league, ie. I had excellent strikers/goal scorers my midfield gave excellent support and delivery but my defence was woeful and my goal keeper should be shot.

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Gendeau May 7, 2011 at 13:31

Yep, earlier would have been better for me too.

Thanks to the web, at least I know that it’s the world that’s crazy, and not me…

Anyway, I’m getting an earlier night tonight than lastnight, so cheers

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Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c) May 7, 2011 at 13:33

oddsock May 7, 2011 at 12:52
“And I wish I had learned the truth about women much younger”

Let me echo that sentiment. It was a REAL surprise to find out just how women felt about men.

“Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

I will tell the young lads the truth so long as I live. It is a shame my MOTHER did not educate me more on women.

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Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c) May 7, 2011 at 13:34

His reply: “So you’re saying we should treat women like dogs?”

Certainly not. Treating a dog with indifference is cruel. Treating a western woman with indifference is what she deserves.

On the topic of dogs. The weather is warming up and I’ve been out jogging the last few weekends. There is a small wooded area near me that people walk/jog in…especially with dogs. As per usual? The women are totally hopeless at keeping their dogs in line, even on a leash. It is like children trying to keep a dog in line. The men don’t even need leashes on their dogs. Most don’t have one. The dogs know to obey their masters.

Since treating a woman like a child, which is what they really need, is now ‘illegal’ and too much work anyway, I just leave the western ones alone. The women I date do what I ask or they are dropped. It’s really that simple. My new lady friend has now developed into fav#5. So in the end I went only a few months without a ‘fav’. I met this one last October and we went to a may day party together. I put her into the ‘hopper’ in case fav#4 also moved on. We have now sorted out how we want to go forward.

I sit there and tell her things like ‘western women are totally horrid now, just take a look around” and she replies quite frankly “yes, I’ve noticed this myself”. She pretends to like me and pretends to agree with me and it works just fine! LOL!! And one day she will leave too. It’s really simple when you look at it.

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Sean May 7, 2011 at 13:42

Woah, clicked the downvote on Peter’s last message by mistake…I meant the upvote, please take that into consideration fellas.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 8
Sean May 7, 2011 at 13:51

Peter, your mother would never have educated you on women because mothers are part of the whole SCAM.

An article on our ‘mothers’ and how they were our first manipulators and abusers is LONG overdue on The Spearhead…if someone doesn’t write it I guess I’ll have to…and I anticipate 200+ comments…we’ve gotta let loose on that one…huh.

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Poiuyt May 7, 2011 at 14:17

For too long in this goddamned genderist shithole of a society, cowardly fathers for generations have grown too timid to tell their daughters, straight out loud in the presence of their wives and their daughters mothers the following:

That fucking far too many men for too long, commencing from 14 years of age to perhaps 64 years of age or over, will damage them moreso terribly than it will damage similarly misbehaving boys.

That too many abortions consequent to casual, promiscuous or illicit sex with passing men will lead to a woman becomming severely prone to physical, mental and moral damages of types affecting girls more so than affecting boys.

That too many years of chemical contraception and otherwise, will leave a woman in her latter stages suffering with the following degenerative disorders of hysteria, cervical cancer, breast cancer and other internal diseases and dis figurments.

That a woman setting too much in stall and giving too much attention to her sexual nature and desires, necessarily forfeits personal growth and development in all other worthwhile areas of human existence and leaves her supceptible to exploitation.

And it is because cowardly fathers fearfull of their wives, in this godamned gendertist land for generations have let their daughters grow wild, selfish, haughty, aimless and feckless that Feminism as an idea took root.

We would never ever have heard of Feminism, nor seen the laws, nor seen the behaviours we see today, if not for the decades long abnegation of responsibility to maintain strict domestic order from intimidated husbands and fathers.

And who were these weakling husbands and fathers afraid of so many years ago, when this goddamned feminist/womanist disease was rearing its ugly head ten decades ago, if not but their idle wives and mistresses having nothing better to do ?

But the womanist/ feminist/genderist disease has been allowed to grow and grow and grow out of control by now. To the point where all men in this wretched land, good and bad, young and old, privilaged and poor, literally stand as dutifull police against each other, aiming weapons in a circular firing squad. Every shameless one of them feeling excused by declaring that they are only doing their job and duty, but whoms recompense is only gained to pay such and such womans alimony, child support, palimony or divorce settlement.

Other men elswhere have for long, seen and known the extreme dangers of timidity and cowardice in the face of wives and daughters. And because they understood the sexual hazard as one that manifests very gradually over generations, they’ve acted accordingly to preserve the dignity and standing of themselves, their sons and their sons sons. By preserving a strict domestic order that occupies thier womens minds and forestalls in posterity, the damning emmergence of genderism, feminism and the sexist police state.

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oddsock May 7, 2011 at 14:20


“Peter, your mother would never have educated you on women because mothers are part of the whole SCAM”

You took the very words from the tips of my fingers.

Mothers will never explain in detail or try to educate her Sons on the true nature of women (a) She would be describing herself ( b) The herd or sistahood forbids it.

Makes one wonder about that old Italian saying; All women are whores except my mother, she is a saint.

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Sean May 7, 2011 at 14:37

Absolutely spot on oddsock…and my mother was absolutely my last hope as to considering whether the female could be in any way virtuous at all…until I realised she was IDENTICAL to the modern women…
No, this ROT is generational…women are ALL the same…men have NO CHOICE but to love, cherish and to look after OURSELVES, more than we’ve damn well been doing.

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oddsock May 7, 2011 at 15:58


Well said, hear hear. This is why I do not see any point in getting into silly arguments on here or any other male friendly website.

I much prefer, nay, see it as my duty to awaken as many men as possible to our true shitty standing in society and the glass cellar most of us have been tricked into and trapped under. We do not need petty fall outs and name calling. We need to do everything we can to promote a better life for men and in whatever path that may take. Nobody has the perfect route/plan. We need suggestions options alternatives etc, not demands and orders followed by a tizzy fit and spitting dummies out of prams. It’s the best if not the only way we can help men move on from this arrested development. We call women adult children and yet we are not much better ourselves.

I look forward to your post on mothers. Anything I can add just ask.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1
Herbal Essence May 7, 2011 at 16:03

P Andrew-Nolan: “As per usual? The women are totally hopeless at keeping their dogs in line, even on a leash.”

Ok, this is somewhat off-topic but I had to share. I live near a river, with great paths and parks along one side of it. A few days ago I was out on my near-daily walk, when I saw two young women yelling and screaming.
Their dog had jumped into the river to chase after a duck. The dog was very near the middle of the river, still chasing after the duck and paying not one bit of attention to the women.
I approached the women and asked “What’s the dog’s name?” They said “Sam.” I shouted his name, and the dog IMMEDIATELY turned around and headed back to shore. I clapped my hands and said his name a few more times until he came ashore.
I’ve never owned a dog, and I’m not really a dog person. I just understand that dogs respect an energy of authority, rather than shrieking and pleading.

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Zilchy May 7, 2011 at 16:57

Sean – “No, this ROT is generational…women are ALL the same…men have NO CHOICE but to love, cherish and to look after OURSELVES, more than we’ve damn well been doing.”

I believe it’s both generational and biological. If you believe in the evolutionary/biological theories of male and female humans, then one has to accept that the “ROT” has an evolution basis.

In “todays world”, the equalizing/protective social mechanisms are deteriorating. Religion is dying, science and technology are the new “faiths” and the biologicals truths (which have alway’s been with us), are shining bright.

The ancient Europeans were no dummies. In many ways, they were much brighter than current peoples of European decent. Religion and the rules which follow were an excellent way to “equalize” the true nature of man. Also, don’t overlook the Arabs/Muslims. Why do you think they have such a hardline stance on women? My guess is at some point in their past, the same thing that is now happening in the west, happened in their culture. They Know!! They won’t let it happen again. They crack down HARD and leave no doubt as to what is expected by Muslim men.

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Common Monster May 7, 2011 at 17:00

I call BS.

Men who make a point of bragging about their sexual conquests in the presence of other men are always total pussies and liars — i.e., the biggest losers.

It’s always obvious to everyone but themselves.

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Anonymous May 7, 2011 at 17:12

@ Common Monster May 7, 2011 at 17:00

“I call BS. Men who make a point of bragging about their sexual conquests in the presence of other men are always total pussies and liars — i.e., the biggest losers. It’s always obvious to everyone but themselves.”

Behold, Common Monster, and be amazed: I too have been able to fuck a woman once a day, just like Athol Kay!

You may touch the hem of my garment.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1
Uncle Elmer May 7, 2011 at 17:30

“Roosh, Krauser, et al. are probably more effective than I am in the club…”

No one is effective “in the club”. Unless there’s some form of partner dancing, it’s a setup to make you look like a fool. You wanna have a beer, go have a beer. You wanna look like a fool, put on your black leather jacket and go to the bar. You will be indistinguishable from the rest of the idiots. It’s like being in a coat rack. You wanna meet women, stay the fuck out of bars.

Most guys figure this out after ramming their head into “the bar” one too many times.

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Jeb May 7, 2011 at 18:10

You wanna meet women, stay the fuck out of bars.

Most guys figure this out after ramming their head into “the bar” one too many times.

I think theres a big difference between “clubs” and “bars.” Clubs are where women go to have their egos stroked by getting attention and having drinks bought for them. The guys that go to clubs are stupid for playing the game. The women gets everything she wants – validation of her worth – without ever intending to do anything but lead men on.

Bars, on the other hand, can be an excellent place to meet and pick up women. Go to a slow moving bar or a lounge by yourself, and learn to be comfortable sitting at a table by yourself. Look for women that are either alone or with one girlfriend. Try to make eye-contact, and you will be amazed how many women will invite you to sit with them. Quite often, even if a guy is with a couple of women, the guy will invite you to sit with them. Bars near an airport or attached to a hotel are also excellent places to pick up a short term sex partner – go alone and learn how to make eye contact without being a creep. (If you are with someone when you arrive, you will never be invited to join another group – plus, you will be too busy yacking at your buddy to be making effective eye-contact and smiling at the patrons of the bar).

I’ve never gone home with a woman from a nightclub in all my life – but a slow moving neighborhood pub or a hotel lounge is a different story. Weeknights are better than weekends.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 2
Avenger May 7, 2011 at 18:49

A loopy 46-year-old Connecticut woman wearing hot pink underwear outside her pants was arrested at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel this morning with a unloaded gun, cops said.

Around 9:30 a.m., hotel security and staff spotted Marilyn Michose, of Danbury, wandering around the hotel’s posh lobby with a .25-caliber gun poking out of her right jacket pocket. As security approached her, the wacky woman started run into the hotel’s bar.

“I have a gun,” she confessed to cops, explaining that she had been looking for a safe to store her valuables.

Police were called and quickly nabbed Michose, who had been staying in a room on the 12th floor. She was charged with 4th degree criminal position of a weapon, and was taken to Elmhurst Hospital for psychiatrist evaluation.

Read more:

Now if this were a man he’d look like Amadau Diallo and have 41 bullets fired at him lol

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Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life May 7, 2011 at 20:33

Thanks for this review, I think you have my intention exactly right.

I also agree that there is not a whole lot that is amazingly new in the book if you’re up to snuff with game/evo-psych, but then it’s a Primer to all of that. It’s how you break the ideas to new people.

Say hi to your dad for me. Mine passed away before I could finish the book and that is my only regret with the writing.

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Ronin May 7, 2011 at 22:17

@Peter-Andrew: Nolan
” Treating a western woman with indifference is what she deserves.”

Most importantly, it makes her pussy tingle and moist.

“Other men elswhere have for long, seen and known the extreme dangers of
timidity and cowardice in the face of wives and daughters.”

A post within a post, Sir. “Most” fathers of daughters are traitorous manginas. Except my lone uncle due to sheer ruthlessnes, his 2 daughters are happily married women who tend to their equally alpha husbands and families. I swear, every holiday is like a scene from fuedal Japan as his son-in-laws (warlords) gather around him (Shogun) and pay respect.

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Jack May 7, 2011 at 23:13

For every 1 “good” woman there are 10 who are psychologically imbalanced and need to be put in a soft cell with a straight jacket

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oddsock May 8, 2011 at 00:34

A must see video. The guy just posted this today. It is completely off his usual thread/discussion topics. He has just been shafted by his ex.

His channel is called; The sludge report. I subscribed to his channel simply because I liked his honesty and delivery style on current affairs.

The reason why I posted this is because it is a real life view of a man that now blames himself for the end of his relationship plus the effect and result even on a man of 63 years of age is obvious.

Joe Speaks

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Philip May 8, 2011 at 02:35

@Poiuyt. I think you are being too harsh on fathers, dont for get that the mothers have the gov leviathan to back them up, and the women have that drilled into there head from birth.
All sorts of bad carma is only a phone call away and men know that and most women are not shy about using that power and they get a thrill out of it.
There is not much most fathers can do, but be good help meat and not rock the boat. Women have turned into good little gov enforcers.

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Andrew S. May 8, 2011 at 02:54

Good point Philip. If I was married to an unhappy hausfrau, the last thing I’d want to do is put her in her place.

I’m not a big fan of police coming to my home, and even less of a fan of having one them put his knee in my back while he handcuffs me. I can’t even begin to imagine what it’s like for men who have gone through this in their own homes.

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Charles Martel May 8, 2011 at 07:54


Mothers will never explain in detail or try to educate her Sons on the true nature of women (a) She would be describing herself ( b) The herd or sistahood forbids it.

Before my mother died she was quite ill for a couple of years. My brother, sister and I, who all live in different countries, would get together frequently during this time to manage her care. At one meeting my sister, who’d been drinking, let slip that my mother had cheated on my father and then told him about it when we were kids. That was an odd moment as my first reaction was that she couldn’t possibly be talking about the woman that I knew.

So I asked my sister how long she’d known. My sister became angry and stated that my mother had always thought my father would cheat on her because he was a handsome and charming (when he wanted to be) man who was always attractive to women.

I’m pretty sure my father DIDN’T cheat on my mother because under the paper-thin alpha-ish veneer he was a loyal beta provider.

This revelation explained a lot for me. I had always wondered why my father’s behavior permanently changed when I was about ten. He became cold, distant, abusive at times. If not for those few glasses of wine, I would never have known. And that’s what struck me the most about this situation. It had never occurred to my sister that my brother and I had a right to know about something that had affected us both in such an important way.

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Herbal Essence May 8, 2011 at 08:10

Jeb- “Bars, on the other hand, can be an excellent place to meet and pick up women.”

I think a lot of bars and pubs are still perceived as “male territory” and they really are a distinctly different vibe to a dance club.
I’ve been to some super-expensive clubs for business reasons, and I think the primary purpose of them is to get men to set their own money on fire.

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Antiphon May 8, 2011 at 11:20


Hear, hear!

But you left a previous step out: these same men needed to tell their wives the same things.

“Hang up the pant-suit and put on a skirt”
“Leave your career and get in the kitchen”
“Get off the pill and let’s have another child (and another, etc.)”
“Turn off Oprah and quit reading that damned newspaper”

(I’ve been away from the Spearhead for about a year–it’s good to be back and to see that it’s still going strong)

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Bambino May 8, 2011 at 12:42

In my experience I have learned that a lot of married guys are hostile to MRA-type arguments and reasoning. Often they are frustrated in their situation (relating to THE BOSS) and did not get the response they were looking for.

Anything even approaching criticism of modern womanhood is a cultural taboo, dont’cha know?

Stand by your convictions and learn to walk away from these guys. Remember that most are living under extreme stress being married these days and are very apt to “go to guns” with their anger and frustrations on a SAFE target: another man.

Men, chase your own dreams and go your own way. Don’t suffer the fools.

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continent May 8, 2011 at 22:23

Peter Andrew Nolan,
About 30 years ago a co-worker was going through divorce. I questioned him if he would consider reconciliation. That’s when he used the aphorism you quoted.
““Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” It really impacted me.
He remarried and had a baby and we went to work in different divisions.
Some 15 years later he had transferred to the division where I was working that did different type of task. I barely recognized him at first, but after regular training he was assigned to “on the job training” with me. He had left his second wife and was back together with his first. That busted my balloon about the profound aphorism

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Rainbows and Lollipops May 9, 2011 at 07:56

Aren’t there feminists that compare men to dogs? So pray tell, what do men that hope to fight against the same kind of oppression, think they are doing for their “cause” by comparing women to dogs? When you act exactly like the people you proclaim to be trying to counter, you show you are no better then them and you are going to fall into the same pitfalls they fell into.

And this is exactly what I have been saying about this site. The things the men on this site”fight” against, are the same exact things the men on this site practice. The men here don’t like comparisons to them being dogs (neither should you!) but you make no qualms about saying women are dogs. Which is why you get back what you give. If you don’t think women respect you? It’s because of the man *you* are. Not because of other men. Not because of other women. Not because of “society” or “feminism”. That’s a truth I think most of you know deep down which is why there is so much self contempt of yourselves on this site. Oh yes, and there is much self contempt here. Under all the back talk about women and feminism, self contempt runs like a quiet but insidiously obvious river in your blood. You don’t even like yourselves very much so how could you like women.

There are many men worthy of respect. But these men don’t play fucked up mind games about alphas vs betas and following a philosphy of making women “heel”. It’s never going to be men that relate women to dogs that will get respect. Which is why so many of you are angry and imbittered. You don’t know the true key to having a woman’s interest and respect. And I am going to clue you in.

Lets start with betas. While some women are attracted to this type of man, some women aren’t. Can you blame women for that? How many of you as a man respect another man that acts beta? None, according to the comments on this post. Yet you pursecute women for the same things you wouldn’t even expect of each other. Which leads me to how we individually describe a “beta” male. It’s not black and white. Some men are book smart, that is a strength. Some men are street smart, that is a strength. Some men are physically strong, clearly that’s a strength. There are many ways for a man to be strong (not beta) and there are so many different women out there that there is one woman bound to be attracted to whatever aspect is strong in that man. Some women like arty men and other women like men in suits. The list goes on.

Women want men that know their own mind. (Again is that so awful??) That won’t abuse their position and that she can see as a strong support system. (Again, how is that offensive to any man here?) No woman wants a man that is happy to manipulate, use and talk about her in terms of being a dog. (Again, where is the issue with this?) My own parents worked as a team. My dad was probably what you would call an “alpha” male but he still considered what my mom’s opinion was and worked with her. He didn’t want to hurt her, pursecute her, use her, treat her like a child or only get *his* way all the time. He wanted a partnership. And that’s the distinction. Most of you don’t really want a partnership. It’s not that feminism has kept you from having an equal one, it’s that most of you LIKE the idea of having to treat woman like a “child” because it makes you feel better about yourself in the midst of your self contempt for youreselves.

The irony here is that the true beta males are the ones that hide behind their contempt of women by manipulating women. That’s the real beta. Because a real alpha is mentally, physically and emotionally strong and doesn’t need to manipulate people to get what he wants. He also is emotionally strong enough to desire to give the other person what they also want because he knows that for any relationships to be a healthy one, it requires give and take. He feels fulfilled in himself that he is able to be both an alley and support system to his partner. The beta males are the ones that whine, bitch and purposely tear down someone else because they can’t figure out how to deal with another human being that requires soem give and take.

Women don’t want “nice” guys (beta males), they don’t want “bad” boys either. They want “good” men (alpha men). And if you are honest with yourselves, you will admit that being a good man is really want you want too.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 18
BeijaFlor May 9, 2011 at 09:08

Rainbows and Lollipops?

More like Shame-bows and Kafka-traps.

Please take your Princess Pony dolly and go play on the Oprah websites.

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silent May 9, 2011 at 10:14

Rainbows and Lollipops May 9, 2011 at 07:56

“Most of you don’t really want a partnership”

False. Many of the Men here wanted (and some still want) a partnership, but only between him and his significant other. The common theme is that the Government is interceding on the woman’s behalf in almost every circumstance, and it’s a disaster for MEN.

Go ahead and explain to us what a ‘real’ alpha is, like you have a shred of credibility.

I know you’re trolling, but if court/family law ever goes away, you’ll figure out what “partnership” looks like

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MsExceptiontotheRule May 10, 2011 at 02:54

My dog went on a swim after the plethora of ducks that live year round on the pond that’s right outside off of the patio only one time. When she returned to the ‘shore’ I was waiting patiently for her to get close enough for me to grab her and promptly put her in the bathtub. Why yell or shriek if you know that the dog is just being a dog (if they’ve got a high prey-instinct they’re going to go after anything that moves regardless of whether or not they actually can take down whatever it is…) and as part of a pack – even if it consists of just a human and a very contrary Siamese cat – they always return home before the back door is closed. My dog isn’t particularly fond of having to take baths and if going into the drink after some ducks results in more than the usual number of times she gets bathed then out of the pond she must stay.

As for partnerships and such – I have often felt that the majority of the men who have been married at some point in their lives and have turned up here on the spearhead were cheated. They were cheated of the partnership that (in my opinion) a marriage is intended to be, but since there are a lot of factors that I as an outsider simply cannot claim to know – who did what and who to blame in what percentage – is an unknown. It is clear that many have had their home, children, and a substantial part of their earnings stripped from them by the family courts of their jurisdiction. I also know that unless they decide that they want to take the risk involved with giving the whole ‘marriage as a partnership’ thing another try – there’s nothing in this world that I can say or do that will change their position on the subject.

When we live with a hardened heart it’s an unacknowledged truth that this choice will cost us – on the emotional and interpersonal levels – and damages most seriously the relationships where compassion and love are critical needs. You may want to hate your mother, your father, and everyone you put all that you had into the relationship with only to be hurt and disappointed. We put far too much of our energy into hate, and too much of our time into dwelling on things that happened in the past and cannot be changed. Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting the wrongs done, but it can be a way to finally move on and start focusing on the future and what can be done realistically. There’s very little likelihood that major changes using inflammatory language and hate-inciting tactics are going to work – it’s like the budget fights over whether or not to cut ‘entitlement programs and spending’ only to balance the books while declaring any increase in tax revenues out of the question; the minute that anyone mentions overhauling medicare right after they just announced that there would be more tax breaks for the rich and for corporations and suddenly all negotiations grind to a halt with constituents clamoring for their political representative’s head on a pike. All of that rigamarole is just wasting time. You can catch more flies with honey, and it’s a lot easier to do that compared to all of the legal roadblocks to obtaining industrial grade chemicals to use for killing all the flies in a 20 mile radius.

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V September 23, 2013 at 18:12

This very accurately describes my sentiment toward the cesspool of debate based on something as trivial as what’s between a person’s legs:

That being said, in the grand scheme of the universe, what in all of creation makes people give two rats asses about their penis or vagina? God forbid any of us should focus on anything more important than our petty pride. In this infinite cosmos of beauty and wonder, of course, it’s only natural we can only think about those funny looking little parts that make life worth living, huh?

*Triple face palm* Can any of you tell me what you’ve contributed to the world, or even to yourself, other than the number of times you’ve dominated some other human being who’s trying just as hard as you to make their way in this world and find their self truths on the journey we call life.

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MickeyMoose March 24, 2014 at 09:47

Well this comment is written way way after your blog post.
While I enjoy reading MMSL, like I enjoy reading many other websites, in many respects MMSL, as of March 2014, and for all its supposedly good manosphere intentions, is cringe-inducing as to a good 50% of it forum content. In reality someone who has only ever banged/gamed their own spouse, as I believe is the case for Mr. Athol, has a lifelong irretrievable case of oneitis and I don’t see how all the book learning and posturing in the world could possibly make up for the dearth of significant real-world real-time experience.

It seems Athol’s blog is ironically infested by a variety of wimmenz who give lip service to red pill ideas but in reality whose overarching purpose at chez athol is to verbally dominate any poor beta-ized males with whom they disagree. I know I know I know…so many rationalizations for allowing unfettered female participation…I’m sure it’s a marketing tool at bottom…but for whatever reason–again like so many other internet blogs–athol’s has whittled down to the core group of the beta-ized clique plus occasional visitors asking for “help.”

It’s frightening really because if you simply read many of the posts it is patently obvious that these people and their spouses are so totally dysfunctional in so many ways that it’s well beyond red pill/blue pill stuff. Half of these posters you want to simply say to them “Listen buddy you married a severely emotionally disturbed woman and/or you are severely emotionally disturbed, game isn’t going to change that, maybe heavy medication and a long course of psychotherapy might start to help,” etc.

Athol got a good thing going and I hope he makes a lot of bank but seriously the guy should stop giving what amounts to psychological advice without a license. He even has what he calls “coaching” sessions privately, what a load of bullshit.

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Insidious_Sid June 12, 2014 at 10:01


I thought the same think about Kay’s “counselling sessions”, but then again, what Kay teaches couldn’t POSSIBLY harm or dissolve a marriage anywhere NEAR as fast as “modern blue pill marriage councelling” can. And I’ve subscribed to BOTH! lol.

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MikeInRealLife July 1, 2014 at 12:21

Even though I’m way late to the party, I have to echo MickeyMoose on the infestation at the MMSL forum. I posted there briefly a year or two ago, but the “red pill women” there are a huge joke. As has been accurately pointed out in a thousand places in the manosphere, women cannot tell men how to improve as men. But there they are, all over the MMSL forum, dispensing their feminine-primary advice to beaten-down betas and glorifying frivorce (so these middle-aged women can get a “hot stud”). I left that forum the moment I was admonished by an MMSL white knight for using Rollo’s phrase “feminine imperative.”

I’ve read all of Athol’s books, and I did actually take a few good things away from them, but it’s hard to take him seriously in some ways. I respect his long and apparently happy marriage, but he thinks his wife is a 10. Look up her picture and tell me what real alpha would think she’s a 10. She’s a 5 on a good day, with makeup and good lighting and a professional photographer, which frankly doesn’t say much for his game. Even when I was blue pill with almost zero game, I pulled WAY hotter ass than that, as do many of my blue-pill buddies. He also mentions stuff like enthusiastically playing World of Warcraft in his blog, which makes me think he’s a bit of a geek shut-in with little real-world experience interacting with a wide variety of women.

Athol is probably doing a small service to some beta-ized married men by offering up red pill ideas in a watered-down, heavily sanitized way that’s palatable to blue pill guys. He’s certainly making money by catering to these blue-pill guys with his coaching program. But that watering down also prevents the full philosophy of red pill from taking hold, and I think a lot of these guys attempt to live by half measures of red pill (“Oh, that’s a shit test! Wait, what did Athol say? Right, he says here on page 124 that the proper response is upping the alpha!”). That’ll never work, and all the beta males kowtowing to the “red pill women” on the MMSL forum are ample evidence of that.

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