Chinese Moms, Failing America, 3rd-Wave Feminism and the Me Generation

by Featured Guest on January 12, 2011

By Gorbachev

There has been a lot of commentary in the last few years about the failing of American families. How we raise our children can have a huge impact on the future of our country. With the massive increase in single-mother homes and the claims that men, and traditional family notions including the role of parents, aren’t really relevant for successful children, feminists may be forcing us all to bury our heads in the sand while our culture impales its future on the jagged hypocritical blades of Political Correctness.

In that vein, this article, drawn to my attention in a comment by ReaderLon on Chateau Roissy, made some very salient points about how childrearing strategies used by Chinese mothers are profoundly superior to current American or Western models. The whole article is worth reading.

I recall my own “Traditional White American” background. We had an interventionist mother who focused on her childrens’ educations, in a catholic tradition that brooked no excuses for failure and no sympathy for misdemeanors. That said, my mother was and remains a hard-core “Equity Feminist” with conservative leanings. The upshot was that she expected my sisters to perform, and saying “I’m just a girl” got them no passes. On the other hand, she didn’t expect them to enjoy hunting (though one sister does) nor did she expect them to become CEOs; she did, however, expect them to have children of their own, which they both did. Our own non-Asian, very American family managed to produce a clutch of highly successful young people, and my siblings have gone on to do the same. From what i can tell, this was quite common until the 1960′s and 70′s. It was then that children were simply left to their own devices and the downward spiral commenced.

One of the basic requirements for the traditional style of parenting is at least one parent who prioritizes child-raising over work or personal interests. Few women will respect men who do this, instead almost always choosing men who are better than they are at earning money, while they themselves prioritize the care of their offspring. Even doctrinaire feminists must admit this about the men they’re attracted to, with “house husbands” not being anywhere near the top of the list. All of this is obvious to any non-indoctrinated man who has ever had to deal with actual, real live women and has tried to maintain relationships with them. The fact that this ancient, natural pattern seems biologically encoded into the species angers feminists the most: it seems to be the default setting for the Human Race, and that to resist it is to resist basic human nature. Hence the need for the denial of the reality of basic human nature or its suppression.

It’s why Simone de Beauvoir, the grande-dame of 3rd-wave Marxist-Feminism, felt the need to say,

“No, we don’t believe that any woman should have this choice. No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make it.”
–Simone de Beauvoir

But when women also place their emphasis on work or personal development, it leaves no-one in their children’s educational driver’s seat. Our culture quite literally becomes direction- and ambition-less. Fathers can step in, when allowed or required to, but if there is no father or he’s kept away against his wishes, this leaves the children with no support.

Personal notes: China and Korea

I lived in Korea and China and I saw how both social systems work. With a few reservations, I endorse what the article states as accurate observations. These aren’t just stereotypes about different individual families; the phenomenon of the “Chinese Mom” is very real. It’s also true in Korea, though there it’s slightly different, and I’ll comment on that below. This is much of the reason for the individual success of modern Chinese children and the collective social success of Asian societies generally.
The Effects of 3rd-Wave / MarxistFeminism

American feminists refuse to admit this, but the lower performance results of white Americans in the last 2 generations unequivocally speak to the socially catastrophe side-effects of third-wave feminist and culturally-marxist policy prescriptions. Feminists and liberals contort themselves into bizarre philosophical shapes to avoid this hard fact, but a hard fact it remains. Asian immigrants sporting Asian family values are, on average, far more successful than Americans raised in modern families. They fill scholarship rolls, get top jobs, outperform all of their rivals, maximize their talents and are becoming wealthier and more generally successful much faster than any group in American history. For anyone familiar with Asia, the superiority of the Asian family model in raising children is both obvious and absolutely undeniable, and the final proof for naysayers is in the results. Despite Liberal rhetoric, Big Government can’t replace functioning families that emphasize the welfare of children. The result of liberal policies has been the destruction of American potential and lost lives. We can see the most tragic results in the trenches of black America, where illegitimacy, single-mother families and non-existent fathers have become the norm. Heather Macdonald writes about it extensively.

It’s not safe to be smug, however. The rest of America is racing down that path as we speak. We can look on the failed single-parent families and illegitimacy-as-normal in the black community as a harbinger of what awaits the rest of society.

The abundant truth of these observations are apparent to Asian-American families, especially those originally from China, Korea or Japan. White liberals can only deny this through rampant cognitive dissonance or ideological blindness.

This study, along will every other one, confirms the patently obvious:

The purpose of this study is to explain the gap between Asian American and white students in mathematics test scores by combining both cultural and socioeconomic approaches presented in previous studies. The sample consisted of a nationally representative sample of 1465 Asian American and 8757 white American students obtained from National Educational Longitudinal Study of 2002, by the National Center for Educational Statistics. Ordinary Least Square (OLS) results indicate that parental involvement and students’ individual motivation explain why Asian American students perform better than white American students. Meanwhile, better socioeconomic backgrounds and higher rates of two-biological-parent households also contribute to Asian student’s better performance on mathematics test scores. However, Asian students who live with both biological parents make lower mathematics test scores than white American students who live with both biological parents. This result implies that Asian American students might have higher pressure from their parents on their education.

Clearly, all is not lost. White two-family households still perform better, on average than Asian two-parent households, meaning that there is scope to recover some of America’s lost potential. I submit that the key is a focus on our children, and on maintaining the integrity of successful families, with at least one parent, if not both, focused on making sure children succeed.

And even Wikipedia has much to say on this subject.

Self-selective immigration hypothesis

One possible cause of the higher performance of Asian Americans as a group is that they represent a small self-selected group of Asians. The relative difficulty of emigrating into the United States selected out those with less resources, motivation or ability.
This pattern of success, however, is also found in Asia, so despite self-selection, there must be something to the notion of cultural superiority. Jewish culture in America is very similar in most respects.

Cultural differences **

Cultural factors are thought to be part of the reason why Asian Americans are successful in the United States. East Asian societies themselves, in general, will often place more resources and emphasis on education. For example, the Chinese culture places great value on work ethic and the pursuit of knowledge. In traditional Chinese social stratification, scholars were ranked at the top — well above businessmen and landowners. This view of knowledge is evident in the modern lifestyle of many Asian American families, where the whole family puts emphasis on education and parents will make it their priority to push their children to study and achieve high marks. Similar cultural tendencies and values are found in South and Southeast Asian families (such as Indian Americans and Filipino Americans), whose children similarly face extra pressure by parents to succeed in school and to achieve high-ranked jobs.
Note that this takes sacrifice, time and effort that almost requires women to take time away from personal careers. In Asian cultures, it’s crucial to note that this is an almost wholly female pursuit. Asian women take no shame in being excellent mothers; quite the opposite. In fact, how well they perform this most important job is often a point of pride. In North America, we’ve “liberated” women from the need to sacrifice their individuality to raise their children, and promote gender-neutrality. Despite these stated gender-neutral goals, the net effect is to render children directionless and leave nobody in the childrearing driver’s seat.

In this sense, American3rd-wave feminism can be seen for what it is: yet another part of the “Me Me Me Me” philosophy of the Baby Boomers. It’s just another selfish, self-aggrandizing 1960′s social movement that takes no responsibility for the effects of its policy advice and emphasizes personal freedom without any personal responsibility or forethought- the clarion call of the 1960′s and 70′s.

The damage to out culture, our economy and our future is one of the unacknowledged but unavoidable truths of our time.

Problems with the Chinese Model

That said, much of the pain, misplaced ambition and failure Chinese kids experience can be laid at the feet of relentless parents who push the wrong way. An athletically gifted kid will be shunted to a narrow band of academics because this is the only socially respected activity. A theatrically talented child will be denied this route because a medical/legal/engineering degree is what the parents want, and they won’t brook argument. I knew one man who diligently acquired an engineering degree despite his mediocre math skills, and the day after he graduated, presented the diploma to his smiling parents. In a solemn tone, he then told them to frame it and put it on their wall, because he wanted nothing to do with it. He never again touched it or used it. He immediately went back to art school and eventually became a painter. He’s often told me his baffled parents never quite dealt with the shock of what they see as his bizarre betrayal, but last year, a decade after he stopped visiting the family home, his sister told him that their mother quietly purchased one of his paintings from an art show to hang in a prominent place in their living room.

This is the problem with absolutely denying the individuality of children. Parents are very often wrong. And when they’re wrong, it’s their children who suffer, given the power of the parents.

There are other issues, as well. Traditional Chinese culture is very spare with physical affection. Family life is all about duty – very rarely is love involved. Miserable family life is all too common, if not almost normal. Though Chinese rarely admit to it, this fact is obvious to outsiders. Also, other problems noticed in the west, including physical, emotional and sexual abuse, are also common in China and the rest of Asia, the only difference being that they’re never openly discussed or documented. This issue of “saving face” and dealing with problems internally (meaning, not dealing with them at all) is a much less admirable aspect of Asian societies.

But for that matter, social problems within families are common here, too. Happily, we’re free to talk about it more than the Chinese tend to be.

Korea

Korea illustrates another Asian family model.

While Chinese parenting is often all about demanding from their children, Korean parenting is usually more about pushing and supporting. There’s a very strong, almost tactile difference in the approach.

Koreans are much more physically touchy-feely with their kids than Chinese parents, perhaps even more than white Americans. Chinese fathers are often physically distant, almost cold; Chinese mothers are legendary for browbeating their kids and being unaffectionate, while being quite demanding.

In sharp contrast, Korean parents are notoriously affectionate. They love their kids and show it all the time.

I remember meeting foreign parents living in Korea with their kids. They were often shocked when strangers came up and actually touched their children – patting their heads or taking their hands. Korean culture is not obsessed with the risks of abusive strangers, refreshingly, and Korean culture is, overall, much more affectionate with children. They love all children. China, on the other hand, is not like this. It’s not a very “affectionate” place.

Also, for all the pressure, parents in Korea don’t have to browbeat their children to get them to perform; the social order (friends, school, work, etc.) does that every minute of every day. In China, you can be a lazy ass if you want. Nobody gives a damn if you live or die, or drop out of school. The pressure comes entirely from the family, and as such, families are notorious pressure-cookers. In Korea, the family doesn’t need to browbeat you as much, because society does it – so parents often have a better relationship with their kids, and unlike China, this relationship is not necessarily based on simple duty and respect. The Korean family is often more of a release valve from the pressure cooker of society than a pressure cooker itself.

That said, Korean mothers work hard to make sure their children perform well. It’s similar to the pattern in China, but not the same. Because the social pressure is so intense, the Korean mother is often seen as more of an ally than a taskmaster, which is what a lot of Chinese kids feel about their parents.

Children are sacred in Korea. Parents will do absolutely anything for them. There’s no sacrifice too much or too high. It’s impossible to exaggerate the levels to which Koreans will go to guarantee their children opportunities. Once the kids are born, life becomes a devotion to their welfare and future that Americans into the Me generation of the 1960′s likely find hard to believe.

Parenting and Sacrifice

Some of the stories will be familiar to any Korean-Americans reading this. I’ve seen parents separate for a decade or more so that the mother can raise their children in a foreign country, trying to guarantee them an English-language education which can be the ticket to success. I’ve also seen fathers work insane hours every day, taking time out only for 5-6 hours of sleep a night, all to financially support his family. Many men literally work themselves to death. On the other hand, Korean women typically wake very early, prepare a healthy and elaborate breakfast, take their kids to school, look after the younger ones, take care of the home, cook lunch, pick up the children, bring them to one of several daily tutoring sessions, study with them until 1:00 a.m., and then do more chores and sleep. The image of near-permanently exhausted parents and their usually respectful, dutiful children speaks to the strength of the family as a core unit in Korean society. Long into adulthood, Children show respect and love for their parents often absent or missing in the United States.

What’s shocking to Americans is that this punishing lifestyle is considered normal in Korea. Complete sacrifice for your children is required; from fathers in terms of financial support, from mothers in terms of emotional and personal support. The actual daily lives most parents lead are usually wholly devoted to the welfare of their children, and women take the lead role in their childrens’ educational lives. Of course, much of this model is relatively new, dating back only one or two generations. It’s a modern, industrial-economy take on the traditional Korean family. In previous generations, such educational needs didn’t exist; Korea was largely backwards and agricultural. But this model has strong roots in the traditional focus on family structure and responsibilities that go back centuries, if not millennia. Western culture has, at times, been much the same. For some reason, we threw out the baby with the bath water during the social revolutions of the 1960′s and 70′s.

In effect, Korean mothers are full-time “educational co-ordinators”. If measured by the profound success of Korean children,

Problems in Korea

A lot of the “WORK WORK WORK!” Koreans busy themselves with is just that: busy work. Quite often, little to nothing gets done. This is just as true for study. Highschool students’ days start with one or more pre-classes, and then school; they stay in school throughout from 8 am to 10 pm, and they then study for 3-5 more hours at night. They get between 4 and 5 hours of sleep before it starts again at dawn. They do this 6 days a week. Sundays are reserved for family and study, but in reality, most of what they do is study.

Of course, much of this isn’t studying, or is inefficient. It’s the same in the workplace. Almost all offices get nothing done all day, and the work only gets done in the 3-4 hours from 6pm-10/11 pm when people are allowed to do things that aren’t busy-work, social grooming or just “Sitting There” make-work. Almost all organizations in Korea have a “Bum In Chair” philosophy: So long as your bum is in the seat, it’s better than someone who arrives late or worse, who leaves at 6:00, before the boss, who often stays until 10:00 pm or later. An employee who does 7 solid hours of intensive work and then leaves at 5:00 pm will be socially and professionally ostracized. The foreigners I knew in Korea were stunned at how inefficient Koreans could be, how most of their time was wasted, and how little a group of Koreans could get done, when the hours of work put into a project are taken into account.

The higher up the pay scale you go, beyond upper-middle management, the less competent the people were and the less work was accomplished. Also, the higher up the chain you went, less accountability was practiced. In many ways, it’s a victory for innovation-stifling bureaucracy, an accurate description of Korean society (and Asian society) generally.

Modest Proposals

From the perspective of a neutral observer, an outsider, it’s clear where the advantages are in the Chinese or Korean approach to education, parenting and work, and just as clear where the disadvantages and failures can be found. Just as foreign observers came to America after WWII to study American industry, I think it’s a good idea for Westerners and Western policy-makers to be exposed to North-East Asian domestic and economic culture. The lessons we learn may be uncomfortable to the ideologically pure among us, to all of our racists, conservatives, blind patriots, cultural marxists and feminists, but there is virtue in pragmatism, cultural honesty, openness to criticize and and humility in the face of our mistakes.

In my opinion, a tempered version of the “Chinese Mom” or the “Korean Family” would be a fantastic boon to American society. Taking the right lessons is important, however, because you want your children at the age of 40 or 50 to still like and appreciate you, in a more than “I”m obliged to” kind-of way. And you also want to maintain the American edge in outside-the-box thinking, creativity and in our ability to seize opportunities.

For example, freeing women through equity-feminism was likely a great boon to society. There’s no reason to dismiss the notions that freed up the creative contributions of half our population. However, engaging in “cultural marxism” and narcissism disguised as 3rd-Wave Feminism and Gender Feminism and misandry and anti-Natalism has nothing to do with improving the lives of women, but rather of forcing social change and social engineering on a society that, were the practitioners of these philosophies direct and honest, would never have accepted these ideologies in the first place. We need to be tricked into accepting them, and even then, it’s hard to maintain acceptance in the face of the inevitable results.

A marriage of both Asian and Western cultures could do the following:

- Maximize childrens’ success without turning boys into personality-free, “beta” chumps overly attached to their mothers and women into mere servants of their male counterparts;
- Encourage creativity without hampering practical success
- Create better work habits and reduce frivolous activities to a minimum
- Encourage exploration (which is a powerful advantage of American society) but also encourage pragmatism and concrete measures of success (which Asian culture is very good at).

Most Western-educated Chinese parents understand that they need to embrace their children as individuals – but without indulging them. This is something Liberal America has forgotten, because as a liberal culture, we indulge ourselves all the time. Modern 3rd-and 4th-wave post-equity and gender-feminism is part and parcel of our culture’s general tolerance of self-indulgence, irresponsibility and social fragmentation.

Consider: There must be some reason why almost all foreigners view Westerners as consummately selfish and self-obsessed, and it’s not because of our economic model; other cultures can often be more capitalistic and anti-egalitarian than we are. They think we’re selfish for other reasons that Liberals are uncomfortable addressing.

Needless to say, reforming the failing model of the American family requires getting Big Government as an alternative Father out of the American family, encouraging the creation of happy family units and discouraging the breakup of couples when the welfare of the children could be impacted. It may be that American men and women might need to take interests other than their own immediate needs.

Eat, Pray Love” comes to mind. If the grotesque self-indulgence of this type of ideal represent anything, it represents the depth of selfish self-love and attention our culture now practices at the expense of, well, of everything else.

Or how about this:

Sandra Tsing-Loh single-handedly illustrated why self-loving narcissism is slowly eating away at anything resembling social responsibility in this country.

Or Corinne Maier, a French author whose book was a paean to selfish non-sacrifice for children, leading to the inevitable – just don’t have any.

The critic summed it up nicely:

Ms. Maier’s list of reasons why one should not have children includes things such as no more sleeping in, not being able to eat in nice restaurants, a lack of spontaneous sex and the ever popular complaint that having children means no more “us” as a couple, but only “us” as parents. Ms. Maier suggests that becoming a parent means you somehow forgo the ability to remain connected to your partner. While I would agree that many parents seem to focus only on their children, I would suggest that this is not the fault of the children, the problem rests solely on the shoulders of the parents.

Ultimately, the fact of demography absolutely requires us to breed and have children. And to make sure that our children have the best of the opportunities that we can provide for them.

Neglecting either of these responsibilities is to forfeit our place as members of a continuing culture and society, and to accept non-existence and death as a culture, a society and a nation.

This all links to other themes relevant to modern American decline and social disorder.

In effect, cultural marxism and feminism, with its denial of hard demographics, its worship of open borders and wholesale cultural population replacement due to unwillingness to support having successful families, and its wholesale attack on all responsibilities while promoting only oppositional rights or conflicting group rights, guarantees that even with their own internal problems, Asian values will produce generations of successful children while our culture of social irresponsibility and reproductive barrenness continues its demoralizing decline.

None of this is inevitable. We can stem the tide. Being humble enough to adopting some of the values I’ve seen in Asia could go a long distance to helping restore some sanity to America.

**Side-note:

Illustrating the hypocrisy of “liberal” cultural marxism, successful Asians with better cultural attitudes towards success are often penalized for being successful. So much for the rewards of hard work, intelligence and supportive families. Is this the kind of society we want, a society of Variable Victims and entrenched entitlements?

Asian American status in affirmative action

In the 1980′s, several Ivy League schools alleged that they limited admissions to Asian American students. Because of their high degree of success as a group and over-representation in many areas such as college admissions, most Asian Americans are not granted preferential treatment by affirmative action policies as are other minority groups. Some schools choose lower-scoring applicants from other racial groups over Asian Americans in an attempt to promote racial diversity and to maintain some proportion to the society’s racial demographics.

{ 53 comments… read them below or add one }

Keyster January 12, 2011 at 09:19

Western culture, to its detriment, has become obsessed with political correctness and equality. You can’t ascend in this culture if it offends the lowest common denominator of any “protected class”.

In the interest of “dialing back the heated rhetoric”, I won’t say anything critical of liberal thought and philosophy. Suffice to say, it’s flawed.

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LushFun January 12, 2011 at 09:32

Ah, I remember he was talking about this, good take as always.

Good cultural differences and rotes, sometimes it seems people try to push a culture across as be all without taking into consideration the one adapting to it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
Keyster January 12, 2011 at 09:40

Dumbing down Advanced Placement education…
…because it needs to be more “inclusive”.
(ie-advanced placement classes are overwhelmingly dominated by white males.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/education/edlife/09ap-t.html

Sorry but comparing western culture with Asian culture won’t convince anyone we’re wrong in how we educate our children. The teachers unions in the USA rule the educational landscape.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1
RS January 12, 2011 at 10:02

“Inclusion” is an empty word, yet I do not think the AP curriculum change is due to it. I happen to support the changes because they rebuild it for our changing world.

People learn faster when they can cluster disparate facts into structures. Instead of memorizing recipes, you can develop a Theory of Deliciousness. You may initially only have one for Southern cuisine, but with experience you broaden it to encompass anything.

Same goes for medicine, language and finance, much less these AP courses. The operative word here may be “scalable”; this approach is more scalable when you deal with more facts, period.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
SingleDad January 12, 2011 at 10:03

Women in the US have things just the way they like it.

They are now in the export business. Women the world over love feminism, and, I suppose deep down, in a part of their mind they don’t want people to know about, hate children.

Fellini dealt with this in, and I could be wrong about the title, “City of Women”. A facinating take on feminism and masculism.

Women’s minds were portrayed as a steam room of very unhappy women. This perpetual unhappiness is what sells feminism, IMO.

The film was panned when it came out:

“At the Cannes Festival the papers said that Fellini’s last film was a total disaster, and that he himself had ceased to exist. It’s terrible, but it’s true, his film is worthless”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Women

And of course because he took on feminism at a time when that was not fashionable, Germane Greer slept with him writing that he called his wife from her place:

http://fellini.it/news/feminist-author-reveals-affair-with-fellini.html

I believe that is why women are the far and away the top abusers of children.

Just say no to crack (the female kind).

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Anonymous January 12, 2011 at 10:03

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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Anonymous January 12, 2011 at 10:06

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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SingleDad January 12, 2011 at 10:08

Skadi is back. Don’t feed the troll.

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Migu January 12, 2011 at 10:13

But why are only women expected to “sacrifice their individuality”? Why aren’t you asking men to sacrifice their individuality and personal interests? What will be the contribution of men if women sacrifice their individuality and freedom?

You’re kidding right.

What individuality? Do you live in the outside world??

All I’ve heard for the last 30 years is how we are all the same and if you don’t fit you can rot in hell.

Individuality. We have Ritalin and Adderoll for that.

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NMH January 12, 2011 at 10:39

I am doubtful that the Chinese mom model is a good way to raise children. I work in a very technical, competitive field with a considerable number of Asians/Chinese. What I see with them is an inordinant obsession with getting ahead without necessarily doing the work required—the Chinese often cut corners and cheat the system in my field where the average American will not. Also, a lot of Chinese are rejected from the system that I am in because they are not considered creative enough.

I suspect that current American parenting of children, on average, is probably worse than the Chinese, but average American parenting of the 60′s and 70′s I suspect is much better than the current Chinese model in instilling creativity and integrity, and possibly in more ways as well.

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Satyajit Roy January 12, 2011 at 10:46

The thing, the Chinese moms who are strict like that are not SAHMs but career women and they want successful careers for their children.

Same with Indians.

We educated Indians are like that – very driven, very strict and sometimes even abusive

My parents were like that, and I’ll say that while some of it worked, some of it didn’t and in the Indian community here we have some adult kids that refuse to even speak to their parents because of a too obsessive upbringing.

There’s 2 sides to every coin.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 25 Thumb down 27
scot January 12, 2011 at 11:15

Gorbachev, very good piece.

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Robert in Arabia January 12, 2011 at 11:34

Rabbi Dov Lior rules that Jewish Law prohibits sterile couples from getting pregnant using non-Jewish man’s sperm, as it causes adverse traits. On subject of single mothers he says, ‘Child cannot be 100% normal’

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4006385,00.html

Rabbi Dov Lior, a senior authority on Jewish law in the Religious Zionism movement, asserted recently that a Jewish woman should never get pregnant using sperm donated by a non-Jewish man – even if it is the last option available.

According to Lior, a baby born through such an insemination will have the “negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews.” Instead, he advised sterile couples to adopt.

“Sefer HaChinuch (a book of Jewish law) states that the character traits of the father pass on to the son,” he said in the lecture. “If the father in not Jewish, what character traits could he have? Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel.”
Lior added identified Jews as merciful, shy and charitable – qualities that he claimed could be inherited. “A person born to Jewish parents, even if they weren’t raised on the Torah – there are things that are passed on (to him) in the blood, it’s genetic,” he explained. “If the father is a gentile, then the child is deprived of these things. …

“If a child is born without a father, he cannot be 100% normal.” He stated that rabbinical literature defines these kids as “criminals and subjects of other negative phenomena.”

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 17
aharon January 12, 2011 at 12:20

“If a child is born without a father, he cannot be 100% normal.” He stated that rabbinical literature defines these kids as “criminals and subjects of other negative phenomena.”
— Many would agree with the problems that result from single motherhood.

Hey Robert in Arabia,

There are always (at least) a few religious nuts from all religions that lack good diplomacy and social skills. He’s an old orthodox rabbi trying (poorly) to deal with young Jews going secular, assimilating, not having kids, etc. Rather than posting here on the Internet about Israeli Rabbis to promote your antisemitism, have you looked around at what some of the extreme Immans in Saudi Arabia, the rest of the Middle East, South Asia, and Europe have been saying about Christians, Muslims, and Hindus? The looniness of what they say might not be too surprising when about 10% of marriages in Saudi Arabia are between first cousins.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 17
SF January 12, 2011 at 12:26

http://www.siskiyoudaily.com/news/x1808784290/Jacob-Berlinghoff-arrested-charged-with-sexual-abuse
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5950896

Here is another sad American story. Fifteen year old girl talked into running away with 44 year old sex criminal uncle. Father mounts a month-long search. (I helped out one day. ) National media is involved. Girl is found in San Francisco. Uncle is jailed. Then the girl files a complaint against her father for something that allegedly happened two years earlier. Was she turning on her Dad to get her uncle out of jail? Nobody knows except the principals. Mom, divorced since the child was an infant, says she didn’t report the allegation earlier because she wasn’t sure child was telling the truth.

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Innocent Bystander January 12, 2011 at 13:00

“In this sense, American3rd-wave feminism can be seen for what it is: yet another part of the “Me Me Me Me” philosophy of the Baby Boomers. It’s just another selfish, self-aggrandizing 1960?s social movement that takes no responsibility for the effects of its policy advice and emphasizes personal freedom without any personal responsibility or forethought- the clarion call of the 1960?s and 70?s.”

A very profound insight I think.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0
Satyajit Roy January 12, 2011 at 13:11

However, Asian students who live with both biological parents make lower mathematics test scores than white American students who live with both biological parents. This result implies that Asian American students might have higher pressure from their parents on their education.</blockquote>

I think there’s a mistake there because the conclusion is not congruent with the original premise. If Asian students living with 2 biological parents still test LOWER than White Students with 2 bio-parents, then why would that indicate higher pressure from the Asian parents on their education?

Rather if the same Asian students scored HIGHER than their White counterparts would it indicate more pressure from the Asian parents.

I agree with the author Maier that anyone who feels like he does about his personal time and space should NOT be having kids.

Only people who really WANT kids and have the financial means to provide them a good life should have them.

I know alot of parents and in my opinion only about HALF of them should have kids.

Kids suffer when they are not truly wanted or valued or planned for.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 24
Joe January 12, 2011 at 14:57

We’ll have to wait for chinese culture to go through a few generations of relative wealth to see how it holds up. It’s a lot easier to be very motivated when the cost of failure is poverty and success is difficult to obtain. I’ll be shocked if the super-motivation lasts. The same goes for Indians. After a few generations of easy wealth the motivation will certainly wane. The comparison of cultures that have been wealthy for generations to those that are trying to emerge from poverty is not really very useful in my opinion. The radically different circumstances make it an apples to oranges comparison.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 1
Lovekraft January 12, 2011 at 15:17

Holy synchronicity! In Mala Fide’s Bardamu posted an article today about the Asian super-mom, with a decidedly different take on the matter:

“That’s the Asian way – train people to become brainless, unthinking automatons incapable of thinking outside of the box.”

Wow, talk about multiculturalism giving whites a major identity crisis – caught between welfare state ghetto dependency on one side, and aggressive foreign pressure (including Islam) on the other.

I prefer we teach our young to prefer the latter, with a healthy dose of the former (which to me is anti-authority and ‘life affirming’).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1
Satyajit Roy January 12, 2011 at 15:22

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 21
scot January 12, 2011 at 15:38

It baffles me how how men can think they can fight the “American gender-raunch” beast, without first fighting the forces that “Empower” them with their faulty and inflammatory manufactured statistics.
Break the “American law enforcement / gender feminist manufactured statistics Alliance” and you have broken their source of “Faulty empowerment”.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0
il128 January 12, 2011 at 16:00

It doesn’t take numerous paragraphs and comparisons to relay the simple fact:
Wester culture women are raised to suffer from borderline personality disorders. The can do no wrong. They are victims.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 1
108spirits January 12, 2011 at 16:01

I’m Asian Australian but very familiar with Asian Americans due to having family there. That article about Chinese mums is doing the round on Asian forums and is heavily criticized by everyone. It’s a very rare, over the top extreme version of Chinese & Asian parenting. Very few Asian families are like hers and they are not at all respected. On average, Asian parents are a lot stricter than white parents, but they aren’t that insane! The Chinese American woman who wrote the article is a Yale Law professor obsessed with success, social status and keeping up with her fellow SWPLs. Surely there are enough Asians living in your area for you to form your own conclusions instead of believing some random conservative Asian feminist yapping on about her unleashing her own mental issues on the poor daughters?

I also notice that many white people living in Asia tend to have a very much off view about the Asian family structure and culture, due to Asians only showing them the sides we want them to see. Gorbachev has come the closest to the real things though.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 3
greyghost January 12, 2011 at 16:28

However I do know that divorce is taboo in Hinduism whereas in Islam it is not. However it IS taboo amongst Indian Muslims.

As soon as femminism gets set up divorce with continued payment by the ex husband will be the norm. India already has the DV laws on the books to have the government kick a man’s ass at a woman’s call.

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CM January 12, 2011 at 16:53

Very nice article. One of the most professional i’ve seen on The Spearhead. I never knew anything about Korean families. I know China is generally better even though it has entrenched feminism – even an all female standing army. The country despite it’s progressivism, culturally nostalgically looks back to the past in pride and guidance – as they always have. As they should, for their culture is deep and very rich if not the richest in the world. China is a very strange country – i’ve been there… It’s very dualistic and just ancient. I do think allot of Chinese are bewildered by the communist revolution which destroyed so much and still oppresses the people today. I guess the strange thing about it is just the people there are so much deeper in character than typical Americans regardless of our two governments giving us on one hand liberty (originally in the minds of the founding fathers) and in the case of the chinese indoctrination, demands and prohibitions.
Good article.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1
W.F. Price January 12, 2011 at 16:55

I’m Asian Australian but very familiar with Asian Americans due to having family there. That article about Chinese mums is doing the round on Asian forums and is heavily criticized by everyone. It’s a very rare, over the top extreme version of Chinese & Asian parenting. Very few Asian families are like hers and they are not at all respected. On average, Asian parents are a lot stricter than white parents, but they aren’t that insane! The Chinese American woman who wrote the article is a Yale Law professor obsessed with success, social status and keeping up with her fellow SWPLs. Surely there are enough Asians living in your area for you to form your own conclusions instead of believing some random conservative Asian feminist yapping on about her unleashing her own mental issues on the poor daughters?

I also notice that many white people living in Asia tend to have a very much off view about the Asian family structure and culture, due to Asians only showing them the sides we want them to see. Gorbachev has come the closest to the real things though.

-108spirits

When I first went to China, I lived with a Chinese family for a couple months. I’d say it taught me a thing or two. Also, my childhood friend’s mom was Korean, so I grew up with about as close to an inside view of an East Asian family as a white guy my age could get.

I agree that the article is an exaggeration. The Chinese American family on my street growing up was totally middle-class American. Sure, the kids went to college, but the boys are mechanics and the girl has an archetypically SWPL job doing marketing for REI. They were not nearly so driven as the writer describes. Actually, they were pretty normal, but that might be because their family fist arrived in the US in the 19th century.

The driven Chinese and Korean parents were the “American dream” generation of immigrants that arrived during a relatively restrictive immigration policy. A lot of Jews who arrived during the period between WWI and Vietnam were the same way, and so were many Indians up to very recently.

But when I was in China proper, the high school kids were really not all that different from me, and it was easy to see that because I was only 23 when I got there. They’d go out with their friends, and in some ways had more freedom than American kids because Chinese society isn’t anywhere near as strictly managed and controlled as American — arcades were open all night, crime was a problem but easy to avoid, police were nowhere near as hardcore and far fewer in relative number, and people simply tolerated the kids.

I was in north China (Beijing), so it may have been different, as the south generally has more academically and financially driven people from what I understand, but contrary to what some people have written the differences between Chinese and American youths did not seem all that big to me. Also, if you spend any time with the majority rural population, this idea that Chinese are all super students driven to rise to the top is ridiculous. They are human beings who live with the cards they’ve been dealt as all the rest of us do. It’s only here in the West that this super ambition is so common amongst Asians — it doesn’t pay off over there to the same extent it does here, so most of them are normal folks who just get by like we do. Not to say there aren’t differences, but mostly they are the result of incentives and policies (e.g. saving money vs. spending everything you earn).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0
Matthew Graybosch January 12, 2011 at 17:15

Ultimately, the fact of demography absolutely requires us to breed and have children.

Bullshit. I am not going to put aside what I want from life just to ensure that white people remain a majority of the American population.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 16
Satyajit Roy January 12, 2011 at 17:18

As soon as femminism gets set up divorce with continued payment by the ex husband will be the norm. India already has the DV laws on the books to have the government kick a man’s ass at a woman’s call.

India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have already had women PMs (that’s Prime Ministers, NOT pre-menstrual syndrome), decades ago, and the US, which is the forerunner of all waves of “Feminism” has not yet had even 1 female President.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 14
thor January 12, 2011 at 17:38

What you propose is what we once had in the US. It describes Western European society in the upper classes today as well. Good article and a big reason why I see PUA as a dead end. BTW, I’m Tyrone at Citizen Renegade.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0
Callaham January 12, 2011 at 17:47

This piece was far too long winded for what it had to say. I would bet the author did not even revise the word count down or draft it in any way. This was stream of consciousness rubbish, not a thoughtful essay.

That said, the racist anti white Chinese mother professor who wrote the original article and book this month about Chinese mothering supremacy, I think all one has to do is ask, if the Chinese are so superior, why is this woman speaking English? Why is this woman in the west?

To be from a culture and country that kills dissidents, denies all adults the right to have more than one child, forces abortions, bulldozes innocent people’s homes just to built an Olympic stadium, throwing them out on the street with nowhere to go, a country with a censored internet, no human rights, a reputation internationally for being nothing but a giant factory, ‘the world’s factory’, no real reputation for high art and culture, novelists, filmmakers, composers, adventurers, just a Red China clunk of over of a billion almost identical drones who are so weak in character they actively allow themselves to be ruled over by a bunch of communists, and this culture grasping for one minute, minor thing to be proud of, has the gall to rear its head in the form of a Chinese immigrant college professor who says her race creates the best parents… sure, if you want to raise scary, unquestioning, highly trained communist economists and fighter pilots for the chinese army who will drop bombs at will, sure, if you want to be ‘impressed’ by some browbeaten little chinese kid sitting at a piano regurgitating ‘perfectly’ the musical composition of a famous white classical composer….

Basically, if China and Chinese culture was so wonderful, so ‘superior’, her parents wouldn’t have fled like dogs with their tails between their legs to ‘find a better life’ in America. By their actions, by her actions, their lives are an exercise in admitting tacitly that America is superior in every way.

Oh, but maybe not in ‘parenting’, so what! The west is streets ahead of the un-free rice paddies of Asia where a jeep with a delegation of ‘party members’ can roll up and just commandeer your land and home. All you MRAs who focus on asian women, fine, do it, good for you, just don’t lie to yourself that asia is some land of the free, it’s not, it’s mainly a horrible grouping of societies without freedom and without much possibility for a MAN born in the country to have many options in life.

Don’t confuse, ‘western man jetting in and out with western money’ to the horrible options available to the natives. Even if they can ‘become a company man’ and go to college, their culture is so bland they are likely to just be taking orders their whole life.

I think the woman asian college professor of ‘asian mothers are superior’ is a racist piece of CENSORED and I am glad I am not a person raised the same, by a culture of people who do everything the same, who all act and look the same, who are so bland and mindless that if you put them all together in the People’s Liberation Army, and hand them aircraft carriers and fighter jets, and nukes, they just look like a scary, dead eyed bunch of factory workers with nothing to say about anything, who are prepared to go to war at a moment’s notice on the order of some aging unelected dead eyed clown in a suit. I don’t think they are superior at all. I think if they had any balls they’d rise up and free their own country. But no, they’ll stick to bragging about their kids piano recital and math scores.

Meanwhile, they just announced the first Chinese stealth fighter jet.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 21 Thumb down 10
Elusive Wapiti January 12, 2011 at 17:49

Gorby, fantastic article. Well done.

Robert in Arabia, do you cut-and-paste the same comment at blogs all across the manosphere?

I support recycling as much as the next guy, but I’d ask that you at least do us all the favor of writing something original when you comment. Thanks.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3
Kaz January 12, 2011 at 18:04

60?s and 70?s I suspect is much better than the current Chinese model in instilling creativity and integrity, and possibly in more ways as well.

Really? The same people who run our government now, and ran the economy into the ground? They somehow have more integrity than asians?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0
Scattered January 12, 2011 at 18:09

We are not the same, populations isolated for significant periods of time will change according to the selective pressures of their environments. It is not unreasonable to suggest that Asians for whatever reason are on average better at math.

Culture is not enough to account for the consistent gap, especially in something so dependent on intelligence as math based fields.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1
Zammo January 12, 2011 at 18:43

That said, the racist anti white Chinese mother professor who wrote the original article and book this month about Chinese mothering supremacy, I think all one has to do is ask, if the Chinese are so superior, why is this woman speaking English? Why is this woman in the west?

I think this element must be addressed.

As well, we all know the logical tactic of “switch the genders” in order to efficiently sort out sexism.

“Change the races” needs to be applied here. Imagine if the essay espoused white, Anglo-Saxon mothering superiority.

Ah, the shit storm that would ensue…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1
demirogue January 12, 2011 at 18:57

When a culture treats its men not as equals but as predators to be looked upon with contempt, to hell with it. I really don’t care what happens to the USA or any other nation that’s been overtaken by feminism.

Those attitudes of treating men as criminals or beings that will eventually commit harm on children is one of the biggest reasons that the family unit in this nation is a failure. They don’t want us around.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
Kaz January 12, 2011 at 18:58

I honestly thought the article was a tongue and cheek kinda thing. I mean no one could honestly be that unaware.. She obviously understands what she is doing is overboard.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2
DevilDog January 12, 2011 at 18:58

The old 1900s-1960s American way of raising children seemed to be an amazing model… Looking back, it seemed to be a mixture of Western and Eastern parenting.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0
CM January 12, 2011 at 19:15

As soon as femminism gets set up divorce with continued payment by the ex husband will be the norm. India already has the DV laws on the books to have the government kick a man’s ass at a woman’s call.

India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have already had women PMs (that’s Prime Ministers, NOT pre-menstrual syndrome), decades ago, and the US, which is the forerunner of all waves of “Feminism” has not yet had even 1 female President.

Do Americans know something India does not? Satyajit Roy’s comments are convincing…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3
108spirits January 12, 2011 at 20:07

I don’t know how racist that Chinese mother is against white people, but if you look at her daughters, they are clearly mixed: half white half Asian. Her husband seems to be a white herb kitchen bitch though to allow her to do this to their kids.

Chinese are generally not racists as they are hugely ethno-centric, but even that they keep to themselves. This woman saying how her Chinese mothering way is vastly superior to the Western way, to me, smacks of SWPL one-upmanship more than anything to do with racial, ethnic or cultural pride.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
Anonymous January 12, 2011 at 20:47

Sooo…The Great Obsidian Experiment failed .Now,you are throwing The Great Gorbachev Experiment at us.Oh well;eventually you’ll get it right…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Anonymous age 68 January 12, 2011 at 21:06

>>There’s no reason to dismiss the notions that freed up the creative contributions of half our population.

I missed that. Women have started creating? Where? Oh, you mean the crafts stuff they sell each other?

Men still obtain 95% of all patents. I think this is quasi-feminist talk.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0
Herbal Essence January 12, 2011 at 21:20

I liked the article too, but I think the man shaming over “demographics” is over the top. It’s not my job to let some succubus potentially ruin my life just so I can knock her up and “preserve my race.” I respect any man who wants to be a husband and father, but that decision is nearly suicidal at this point. And men & women from my race are the biggest problem. I have told social conservative women to f off over “white baby” shaming but for the author I’ll utter a respectful “non servaim.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2
Robert in Arabia January 12, 2011 at 21:38

Dear Elusive,
I post snippets at blogs where intelligent people gather.
I post responses.
I also post links to long articles I have published.
I was amused today that a delusional poster at the Gates of Vienna spent a lot of words claiming that I am someone else with a typepad account that he does not like. I do not have a typepad account

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2
Satyajit Roy January 12, 2011 at 21:56

hand them aircraft carriers and fighter jets, and nukes, they just look like a scary, dead eyed bunch of factory workers with nothing to say about anything, who are prepared to go to war at a moment’s notice on the order of some aging unelected dead eyed clown in a suit.

Those guys are in Iraq and Afghanistan as we type….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 10
evilwhitemalempire January 13, 2011 at 02:53

Sorry to be off topic but if anyone is interested I think I might have just owned David Futrelle big time.

http://www.manboobz.com/2011/01/how-to-get-upvoted-in-mensrights-on.html

David: “Sorry but those are fetish sites.”

Me: “So your saying this isn’t misogyny?”
(checkmate)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Alphabeta Supe January 13, 2011 at 06:10

With great respect for the point Gorbachev is trying to make in his article, I’m not sure citing Amy Chua was a good idea. Frankly, Amy Chua is an intelligent fool. A young adult’s good character rather than their capacity for high achievement is the cardinal marker of a successful parent. This is common knowledge in every culture of consequence so it surprises me that anyone would find Amy Chua’s opinions worthy of mention.

High material achievement may gain a child entry into privileged places, like Carnegie Hall or Yale University Law School, for example, but a civilised child will become an adult that has access to every community on earth, privileged or not. Civility is a passport into people’s hearts. Material success is the opposite. If we want to talk about value, we need only consider which will help the child when vicarious parenting doesn’t go according to plan.

I’ve not known many high-achieving Chinese people who were interested in interacting with people who couldn’t help them advance their ambitions. Even those whose ambitions included having lots of friends or being popular were very self-oriented.

The idea that high achievement in children characterises a successful parent suggests that training a child to be self-oriented is a virtue, which in the West it is not. No doubt the human animal can be trained (or coerced in Amy Chua’s childrens case) to maximise its intellectual, physical and creative potential, but its success as a human being, which I define as the human animal with cultured empathy, comes from parents who teach the value of non-material success. Children that are deliberately coached to excel in material pursuits are unlikely to become civilised adults.

Civilised Man aspires to much more than simple high achievement. Both Gorbachev and Amy Chua fail to acknowledge the serious antipathy caused by childhood coercion in other areas of life, like relationships with lesser mortals for example. She also assumes that being an Ivy League Law professor, a concert pianist, or a pure mathematician are the coveted goals of every capable human being, which is obviously not correct.

To suggest that being able to do difficult things well just so one can enjoy them, which she also does, is to suggest that the unbridled pursuit of self interest is a virtue. Civilised society would disintegrate if everyone achieved their potential for the main reason that it felt good. Doing things just because you can is foolish.

The question I have to ask about coercing kids into high achievement, then, is why bother? What’s so important about the world that being able to prove Cauchy’s Integral Formula in grade school or play the Rach 3 on the piano blindfolded is considered valuable? Human beings will always achieve these things, but what lasting value do they have? There will always be someone who can do better. What function do they serve other than to give a parent like Amy Chua the opportunity to preen herself whenever her ego needs a boost?

To summarise, I categorically reject coercion and bullying as a civilised parenting technique. Anyone can be forced into doing better, but if they are taught to do so under their own recognizance of value, which is the hallmark of civilised society, they achieve spiritual as well as material success. Americans, at their constitutional best, do this better than any other nationality despite the ravages of feminism, self-indulgence and religious fundamentalism. The Chinese really don’t come close.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1
Lara January 13, 2011 at 06:23

Alphabeta Soupe,
Good comment. I send my kids outside to play even in bad weather, I think it builds character.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5
Lara January 13, 2011 at 06:36

Boys should get more freedom than girls. Because this mother has daughters her parenting style might not cause that much harm. They will probably try to get away from her overbearing presence as they get older, though.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4
Licorne Negro January 13, 2011 at 11:41

Anonymous Age 68 sez:
“>>There’s no reason to dismiss the notions that freed up the creative contributions of half our population.

I missed that. Women have started creating? Where? Oh, you mean the crafts stuff they sell each other?

Men still obtain 95% of all patents. I think this is quasi-feminist talk.”

And I agree 100%!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Satyajit Roy January 13, 2011 at 15:53

wave of any generation of feminists, My mother would kick all their asses along with all the other AMERICANS :D

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
crella January 14, 2011 at 03:02

The old 1900s-1960s American way of raising children seemed to be an amazing model…

Well, it did teach accountability, we got hollered at or smacked when we needed it, had to earn money for things that we broke, or things that we wanted (I saved my allowance to buy a Frank Sinatra record when I was 7, it was fun to have some independence) write thank you notes, do chores, apologize to the neighbors when we were wrong. We were expected to get good grades, and the teacher had the last word at school.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
scot January 16, 2011 at 12:57

What is the difference between “equality feminism” and new “gender-raunch” feminism??

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Doug1 January 31, 2011 at 16:13

Break the “American law enforcement / gender feminist manufactured statistics Alliance” and you have broken their source of “Faulty empowerment”.

That’s why we need men’s studies aka rights departments at universities.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

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