Domestic Violence Fairytales Threaten Constitutional Protections

by Featured Guest on September 4, 2010

By Carey Roberts

Kristin Ruggiero of New Hampshire figured it would be a slam-dunk. The gambit worked like a charm during the divorce hearing, now she would bring the case to criminal court.

Her husband Jeffrey, an officer in the U.S. Coast Guard, was an incorrigible batterer, at least that’s what she led to the judge to believe. That got him convicted of criminal threatening, and she won custody of their 7-year-old daughter.

But Kristin Ruggiero wasn’t finished.

So one day the woman bragged to her startled ex, “I took all your money, I took your daughter, and now I’m going to take your career.” She went out and purchased a disposable cell phone and registered it in the name of Jeffrey. She then sent herself a passel of threatening text messages.

Apparently Kristin didn’t realize that in criminal court, allegations are subjected to a higher standard of proof. And all of a sudden the nefarious scheme to frame her ex-husband came crashing down.

Last week Kristin Ruggiero was convicted on 12 counts of falsifying physical evidence and sentenced to 7-14 years in prison.

This tale is not so much about a distraught woman sorely in need of psychological help. Rather, it’s a story of a police department, a prosecutor, and a judge that allowed themselves to be duped by a conniving perjurer. And it’s about a criminal justice system that has all but abandoned due process in a frenzied attempt to curb domestic violence.

Like everything in the law, the problem begins with definitions. The Violence Against Women Act, passed during the first term of the Clinton Administration, includes a definition of domestic violence that is so wide you could drive a Mack truck through it.

States picked up on the loophole, and now most states include within their definitions of abuse, actions like making your partner “annoyed” or “distressed”.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control likewise followed suit. The CDC’s Uniform Definitions and Recommended Data Elements declares that partner violence includes “Getting annoyed if the victim disagrees,” “Withholding information from the victim,” and even “Disregarding what the victim wants.”

Note the CDC’s repeated use of the word “victim.” In VAWA-speak, a victim does not need to be a prostrate body lying in a pool of blood. Rather, a mere accusation elevates you to the status of victim. No proof of violence necessary. Recall the Queen of Hearts’ disdainful remark, “Sentence first, verdict afterwards.”

Fanciful definitions are just the beginning.

Favored with $1 billion in federal largesse each year, our nation’s domestic violence industry has created an alternate-reality legal system that would confound even the likes of Alice.

Our Looking Glass criminal justice system features judges who have been educated to always “err on the side of caution;” victim advocates who coach putative victims how to embellish their claims; and free legal help to accusers (but not defendants).

And for readers with a well-honed sense of fairy-tale humor, mandatory prosecution policies epitomize a legal system run amok. Often the “victim” decides she has taught her boyfriend enough of a lesson and recants her story. But zealous prosecutors have taken to jailing these women until they agree to cooperate. That draconian practice allowed a California woman to secure a $125,000 false arrest award a few years ago.

Such strong-arm practices have not escaped the attention of civil rights groups. The Washington Civil Rights Council has described our current domestic violence system as creating the “biggest civil rights roll-back since the Jim Crow era.”

Last year the Connecticut chapter of the ACLU took on the case of Fernando A., a man who had been falsely accused of throwing his wife down a flight of stairs. When a judge then deprived him of the right to a hearing to decide whether to remove his children, the ACLU took the case to the state’s Supreme Court. Fernando A. won on a 5-2 decision.

Earlier this year Stop Abusive and Violent Environments, a Washington DC-based victim advocacy organization, released a report titled “How Domestic Violence Laws Curtail our Fundamental Freedoms” . The report concludes that each year, over two million Americans have their fundamental civil liberties over-ruled by the Violence Against Women Act.

Consider the Constitutional guarantees of due process, probable-cause for arrest, right to a fair trial, and equal treatment under the law – all are cast aside by get-tough-on-crime domestic violence laws.

The tall irony is that Vice President Joe Biden, who proudly championed VAWA when he was a senator in the early 1990s, is a former professor of constitutional law.

{ 114 comments… read them below or add one }

IurnMan83 September 4, 2010 at 11:50

‘Bout time somebody got nailed for being a lying bitch. I can’t stand to see an honest man lose everything for a lying whore who’s not smart enough to see what she’s losing but has the brains to do such evil and almost get away with it. If only women would see!

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 66 Thumb down 2
BoxANT September 4, 2010 at 12:17

Thank you for the article and the links. That paper written by SAVE is very interesting, I especially like the line, “We therefore conclude that the Violence Against Women Act and associated domestic violence laws represent the largest roll-back in civil rights since the era of Jim Crow.”

It is amazing how such a large and horrible systematic destruction of peoples life, liberty and property has gone on so long without much public outcry. Hopefully things are changing.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 44 Thumb down 0
recluse September 4, 2010 at 13:12

It is one thing to read about the misandrist court system on the net and another to be in the courtroom on the receiving end of the injustice.

The judge in my case made it clear the law had no place in his courtroom.The one tiny bit of protection for the accused written into the ex parte law was openly dismissed even though I had proven my point beyond a doubt.

Even though I proven the accuser could not read or identify the documents she filed, they where allowed to stand.
Not only had I proved the accuser was illiterate and had not checked the box identifying someone else had filed the report in her name with her signature,I also proved the accuser had a history of Guardianships and conservators due to severe mental problems.
It was clear the court clerks had checked all the boxes with a typewriter without verifying asking for the truth.
Both actions are clearly written into Michigan law as cause for dismissal,and in the case of the clerks actions,illegal.
Both actions where ignored by the judge when pursed in court.
Knowing all this the judge told me he would sign another protection order if it was put in front of him.
It was clear I was guilty until proven innocent,had no equal standing under the law,and no legal recourse to the court’s criminal actions.
My constitutional rights where shredded without an afterthought.
The judges prefer Federal monies and career advancement over truth,honesty and justice.
The lack of legal recourse to the criminality of the court is provocation to violence.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 52 Thumb down 2
Anonymous September 4, 2010 at 13:40

One idea I’ve had is that men, especially fathers, see if they can sit in on family law classes at a local law school. Listen to the lectures, do the reading, maybe even get involved in a clinic. Probably be more fun and definately more rewarding than watching TV, and you wouldn’t have to worry about your GPA. Maybe there are some video lectures on line. I should have already looked into that. Sorry. I’ll see what I can find. I know there are several excellent video series in the medical field.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 2
POIUYT September 4, 2010 at 14:00

According to the law, the system, the culture and the unwritten social code as it operates, false accusations made by females against males surrounding domestic violence, rape, sexual harrassment and sexual assault dont exist.

It is axiomatic to say that such a genderist system of mal-inductive logic, institutionalised sex selective myopia and tautaulogic absurdities will come to threaten constitutional protections … Because that is exactly what it is designed to acheive !

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 37 Thumb down 0
Avenger September 4, 2010 at 14:10

My constitutional rights where shredded without an afterthought

You file a civil action against everyone involved in Federal Court for a violation of your civil rights. Judges do not have immunity in Fed Court in these civil rights cases and will have to file an Answer to your complaint.If she doesn’t, then you file a default against her.
And once you file that complaint they are going to have to comply with any demands you make for production of documents, subpoenas etc or be held in contempt. You’re making the same mistake most men make by being put on the defensive rather than taking the offensive.

You also file a complaint against the judge with the State Bar and with Licensing.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 45 Thumb down 2
Bob Smith September 4, 2010 at 14:13

I supposed it’s unreasonable to hope that Jeffrey’s criminal threatening conviction was overturned.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
Rebel September 4, 2010 at 16:07

In all primitive matriarchies, justice is approximate and swift. The laws are unwritten and subject to interpretation.

The state of justice in our country is a clear indication (one more) that we have definitely a state of matriarchy, wall-to-wall.

A return to justice (and patriarchy) is going to be a hard battle to fight as we will have to wrestle power from women.

Be patient and be brave. Many will fall before things are turned around.

We were unable to curtail the rise of feminism. It’s going to be a lot tougher now.

Arnold Toynbee insisted that if humans, in any civilization, fail to overcome challenges, the same challenge will present itself again, but it becomes more difficult at every turn.

Failure to overcome a challenge may well result in the collapse of the civilization.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 28 Thumb down 1
rob September 4, 2010 at 19:26

I chuckle at the thought of how many prison broom handles will rape this false-accuser over 7 to 14 years of incarceration!

Mwuh huh hah!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2
Cloud September 4, 2010 at 20:07

Craigslists is now a causality of Feminism:

Adult services censored on Craigslist

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/04/craigslist.censored/index.html?hpt=T2

Without ANY PROOF, feminists have managed to shut down the adult services section on Craigslist by pure accusations. The article just makes accusation after accusation without any hard proof that any child has been trafficked using Craigslist.

Gays and Lesbians use Craigslist just as much (maybe even more) as straight people, but you will NEVER see a major news station bring that up. They would have you believe that it’s purely straight men and their evil penis.

At any moment, your freedom to walk outside and breathe the open air can be stripped from just by the accusation of an aging whore dieing for attention.

I live in a country where men lose their houses and children to their lying wives, but those SAME MEN will defend her right to do so. Those SAME MEN will become cops and beat another man purely on the word of a woman. Those SAME MEN will become politicians and pass laws so that women can rape men of their life. Those SAME MEN will never dare criticize a woman for anything.

Why!?
Why!?
Why!?

Most of those State Attorney Generals in the article are MEN.

What else must women do before they wake up?

Don’t these men want their sons to grow up and live a better life?
Don’t these men want their male cousins to receive Due Process?
Don’t these men want want their uncles to retire rather than working forever to pay their ex-wife alimony?
Don’t they want their brothers to be employed, rather than losing their job to make room for another tax-sucking single mother?

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 0
TFH September 4, 2010 at 20:08

If there was a Men’s Rights Movement, they would be organizing field trips to court to see how divorce, false rape, and DV proceedings go, and how whatever assumptions they had about the US constitution do not apply.

Even more ambitiously, there would be organized protests outside of the courthouses.

But alas, there is no Men’s Rights Movement.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 32 Thumb down 12
TFH September 4, 2010 at 20:10

Failure to overcome a challenge may well result in the collapse of the civilization.

And who suffers the most under such a collapse?

I would argue that a fair number of single men would not be much worse off than they are now. Single mothers and single old ladies on the other hand…..

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 32 Thumb down 11
TFH September 4, 2010 at 20:14

Is Carey Roberts actually guest-posting here, or has someone else just copied and pasted the article?

If the former, that is good, since Instapundit linked to the Carey Roberts article.

Instapundit has been linking to Roissy lately, and if Instapundit starts linking to The Spearhead, that would be a huge step forward.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 8
Cloud September 4, 2010 at 20:18

Oops, I meant “casualty”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
rob September 4, 2010 at 20:22

Good Christ, TFH!

Have you EVER read any Sun Tzu?

What the fuck is up with your goddamn campaign to discredit the MRM as a mere “proto-movement?”

Even if you are right (which you aren’t – and if you would study “movements” you would see what comes first), you are still being completely self-defeating by running around campaigning how weak and inneffective the MRM is.

Why do you insist on spending 50% of your “activism” shooting not only yourself, but everyone else’s efforts in the foot as well?

Enough with your “real movement” crapola.

If you were a “REAL ACTIVIST” who understood how the world works, you would keep a stiff upper lip on these things.

I gotta say it, but fuck are you stupid to follow this strategy so adamantly, even to the point of creating enemies within your camp. It’s simply stupid beyond belief.

It’s about time for you to drop the tired refrain of “real movement.” You’ve made your fucking point now, and some enemies along the way.

Shut up!

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 47 Thumb down 11
BS76 September 4, 2010 at 20:30

recluse

It is one thing to read about the misandrist court system on the net and another to be in the courtroom on the receiving end of the injustice.

The judge in my case made it clear the law had no place in his courtroom.The one tiny bit of protection for the accused written into the ex parte law was openly dismissed even though I had proven my point beyond a doubt.

Even though I proven the accuser could not read or identify the documents she filed, they where allowed to stand.
Not only had I proved the accuser was illiterate and had not checked the box identifying someone else had filed the report in her name with her signature,I also proved the accuser had a history of Guardianships and conservators due to severe mental problems.
It was clear the court clerks had checked all the boxes with a typewriter without verifying asking for the truth.
Both actions are clearly written into Michigan law as cause for dismissal,and in the case of the clerks actions,illegal.
Both actions where ignored by the judge when pursed in court.
Knowing all this the judge told me he would sign another protection order if it was put in front of him.
It was clear I was guilty until proven innocent,had no equal standing under the law,and no legal recourse to the court’s criminal actions.
My constitutional rights where shredded without an afterthought.
The judges prefer Federal monies and career advancement over truth,honesty and justice.
The lack of legal recourse to the criminality of the court is provocation to violence.

What did you do after all this? A nice healthy $100M lawsuit should be enough to draw the attention of the media and hurt his chances of reelection. Who knows, you might even win!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0
scatmaster September 4, 2010 at 20:50

So who is this article by Carey Roberts or Featured Guest?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Avenger September 4, 2010 at 22:17

TFH- there’s no need for men to belong to any particular group or march around like a herd of females. Regardless of where you go on earth whether it’s NY, London, Tokyo or Bombay etc, men have all pretty much come to the same conclusions independantly about females, feminism and the entire court system.
Now, what they have to do is put that knowledge and power to good use and as I’ve been recommending for 30 years(and not just concerning feminism) is to never try to get out of jury duty because you may be assigned to a case in out area of interest. As a juror if a man is on trial you will try to always point out exculpatory evidence in deliberations and try to get an acquital. If you can’t manage this then you hang the jury. As a juror I will never convict a man of anything but will always try to hang a female on trial.
This is the most effective, fast and cheap way to nullify laws under which men are prosecuted. Once it becomes known that jurors are doing this the prosecutor will not have the leverage to force innocent men into plea bargains and will also be reluctant to even try cases against men for fear of losing and losing her job if she has enough losses. And remember that these cases that are plea bargained count as a “win” for the prosecutor.
If men really want to win they’re going to have to have the attitude that the ends justify the means. Any means. And forget about any notions of justice or fair play.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 32 Thumb down 14
TFH September 5, 2010 at 03:23

rob,

Have you EVER read any Sun Tzu?

I am actually quite familiar with it. There are a number of tactics MRAs could use, but do not. It is laughable for you to claim that there is some advanced Sun-Tzu strategy at work here, that is so secret that it cannot be revealed even to interested people.

What the fuck is up with your goddamn campaign to discredit the MRM

Call it ‘tough love’. Stating the obvious (that there is no MRM) is not a ‘campaign’.

I gotta say it, but fuck are you stupid to follow this strategy so adamantly,

Rather than whine in a ‘please don’t demand any results from us’, why not actually take action? When the ‘Free Tibet’ movement has more action behind it than Men’s Rights.

Every time you throw your little hissy fit, I tell you to show some actual results, some effort to educate new guys, etc. You protest with a ‘please don’t expect much from us’ appeal and swiftly disengage. The same cycle repeats.

This does not impress me at all, rob.

There is no Men’s Rights Movement, as you so vividly keep demonstrating. I tell you to describe what progress is being made, and you can never come up with anything.

Shut up!

Make me. And you can do that by actually showing some results. Nothing would make me happier than for there to actually *be* a Men’s Rights Movement.

But you still haven’t comprehended that a real Movement actually has to, you know, be visible enough for new people to join the cause.

Results, Rob, Results. A movement that has results does not hide them.

Dragnet, John Nada, Roosh, and many others agree that there is no MRM. All of us wish there was. But there quite clearly is not.

Get a clue..

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 24 Thumb down 16
TFH September 5, 2010 at 03:28

Avenger,

is to never try to get out of jury duty because you may be assigned to a case in out area of interest.

Excellent. Now what is being done to educate more men about the importance of being active as jurors, when the opportunity arises?

men have all pretty much come to the same conclusions independantly about females, feminism and the entire court system.

I wish that were true, but whiteknights/manginas are still far more numerous than men who get it. Indeed, feminism would collapse immediately if whiteknights/manginas were to cease being such.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 18 Thumb down 10
TFH September 5, 2010 at 03:32

Oh, and rob,

It is you who keep proving my point that there is no Men’s Rights Movement as of yet.

1) You throw tantrums, but cannot actually show any results when asked for them.
2) You fail to see that claiming some super-secret actions are being taken (and have been taken for years) is no way to make a movement popular.
3) You attempt to act tough, but can’t get tough with feminists.

You continue to demonstrate exactly *why* the Men’s Rights Movement fails to get off the ground.

Prove me wrong, by showing me results.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 13
HurleyHacker September 5, 2010 at 04:40

TFH,

Your assessment of the MRM Is probably closer to the mark than most of us would admit too. I am disgusted to say I have 20 years experience with the destruction of Father’s by the Un-Family Court. I blindly believed that the Father’s that I was involved with would rise up and throw off the chains of oppression through civil disobedience and all would right itself. The sexism is rooted far deeper and stronger than I imagined.

I still believe that education of young men of the evils of marriage and the Judicial system is a powerful weapon. Withdrawing our funding for the Misandry that is all over us knocks another leg out from under these parasites. This is where the almost invisible results of this blog and spokesmen who share same beliefs will pay off.

I seek out information and results that are more revolutionary and radical. I firmly believe this country will only change through the coming collapse and civil unrest that is to come. Our movement and efforts will combine perfectly by withdrawing all support from the Misandry industry as the whole thing slides into the shitter.

Needless to say I have waited a long time . I cannot save my ex children but will lite a few fires on behalf of the children to come. For now this forum is all I have left. I vigorously use it to warn of the enslavement that marriage and children has become. For what it was worth.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0
Snark September 5, 2010 at 05:10

I used to be irritated by TFH’s mantra that there is no Men’s Rights Movement.

That was before I understood his purpose in saying it.

‘Tough love’ is quite correct; the MRM, as it now stands, exists mainly online, and in isolated pockets of activity IRL.

What TFH is saying is that we would be better served by an active MRM which campaigned in real life. That’s all.

The question is how we get from here to there.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 0
Avenger September 5, 2010 at 05:26

Excellent. Now what is being done to educate more men about the importance of being active as jurors, when the opportunity arises?
Well, I haven’t done it much on the Spearhead but that’s only because it has a tiny number of men even reading it. I do it mostly on major newspaper comments sections and I find that a number of men(and some females) then start commenting in agreement. So apparently there are many people who are thinking the same way.

I wish that were true, but whiteknights/manginas are still far more numerous than men who get it. Indeed, feminism would collapse immediately if whiteknights/manginas were to cease being such.

That’s right, and I shame them every chance I get.

here’s a post under my name “Mr Big”

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/your_kids_are_getting_so_big_p9iTxEeieCpuwUoj7OjWZJ

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2
Avenger September 5, 2010 at 05:35

More from Mr Big on the NY Post

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/web_leaker_ring_ruse_zmIVJMiFQcEKQkoLhuvx9M#comments

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 3
Avenger September 5, 2010 at 05:52
rob September 5, 2010 at 06:28

TFH,

What a bunch of facetious bullshittery.

I am actually quite familiar with it. There are a number of tactics MRAs could use, but do not. It is laughable for you to claim that there is some advanced Sun-Tzu strategy at work here, that is so secret that it cannot be revealed even to interested people.

I am keeping a secret? Really? “When you are weak, broadcast your weakness to your enemies!” Sounds like him alright! “When you are inneffective, point it out to the world, so they know to ignore you!” This is what you are doing. Why don’t you point out the strategy you are supposedly following for us, because that one really is a secret. The only way you would be following strategy is if we were enormously powerful but were trying to trick our enemies into believing we are weak… is that what you really believe?

I didn’t think so.

So please, explain your brilliant strategy, Moses.

Call it ‘tough love’. Stating the obvious (that there is no MRM) is not a ‘campaign’.

Tough love? That’s a brilliant strategy. So far all I have seen you accomplish is to run Angry Harry off of the Spearhead with your incessant fucking whining that “the MRM is not a real movement.” Good thing we’ve got a wise guy like you – a mere commenter – to lead us through the Dead Sea. What did that fucking Angry Harry know compared to a wizard like you anyway? You, after all, have written one article… plus a bazillion comments directed at your “non-existent-movement”. One might think you have spent the past year merely shouting at yourself! After all, there is no actual MRM audience for you to speak to.

Of course, it is not a real movement until someone shoots a gun or sets themselves on fire!

That’s how things like revolutions get started. The population slowly builds up violently over decades in a linear fashion. (Of course they don’t. Writers build up sentiment in the population, which gurgles underneath the surface for years or decades first, until they finally burst onto the scene – like with most “movements.”)

Tough love. Who the hell voted you as Moses?

Rather than whine in a ‘please don’t demand any results from us’, why not actually take action? When the ‘Free Tibet’ movement has more action behind it than Men’s Rights.

Every time you throw your little hissy fit, I tell you to show some actual results, some effort to educate new guys, etc. You protest with a ‘please don’t expect much from us’ appeal and swiftly disengage. The same cycle repeats.

This does not impress me at all, rob.

There is no Men’s Rights Movement, as you so vividly keep demonstrating. I tell you to describe what progress is being made, and you can never come up with anything.

Seems to me that you are the whiner. Last January when you released “The Misandry Bubble” you claimed that you had “discovered” all of that info within around 8 months on the web – of course, much of that info came from this non-existant movement you complain about endlessly. So, in say, around 16 months of being involved online, the only “progress” YOU have contributed to is: 1). One article and 2). Incessant whining about the MRM not being a “real” movement. 3). Chasing the most high profile MRA there is away from the Spearhead.

You certainly are pulling your weight, aren’t you?

Btw, how can you even possibly guage results when you have hardly been involved for any length of time? Have a look at Welmer’s site – it gets 4,000 hits a day… now, that might not seem like much in the greater scheme of things, but compared to only 3 or 4 years ago, it is a huge difference. It used to be that there were only a few sites that were breaking a thousand hits a day – and usually after a couple years of blogging. Today, a site like the Spearhead can grow to 4,000 hits in under one year. Quite a change – more and more people are understanding our viewpoint than ever before – and that is progress.

Btw. What progress did George Washington and Benjamin Franklin have in the years leading up to the Revolution? Were they not a “real” movement until the Shot Heard Round the World was fired? Or was there some point to trying to influence public sentiment before the revolution? After all, many districts during the Revolution were more loyalist than revolutionary.

This is just absurd. And people give you examples all the time, TFH. You just ignore them all the time, refusing to listen to those who have been around longer than you describe the changes in awareness in society… and it was not simply an “accident” this has happened, as you seem to wish to claim. In your 16 months of involvement, you apparently expected to see Rome with completely finished construction. For those of us who have been around a bit longer, we see things as much better today than 5 years ago… but then again, how can you compare?

Make me. And you can do that by actually showing some results. Nothing would make me happier than for there to actually *be* a Men’s Rights Movement.

But you still haven’t comprehended that a real Movement actually has to, you know, be visible enough for new people to join the cause.

Results, Rob, Results. A movement that has results does not hide them.

Dragnet, John Nada, Roosh, and many others agree that there is no MRM. All of us wish there was. But there quite clearly is not.

Get a clue..

Who the hell are Dragnet & Roosh? And why should I care about their views. John Nada & I often have in depth discussions about things – I suspect his views and mine are much closer than yours are to either of our ideas.

What are YOU doing to get results, TFH? All you do is whine like a fucking little baby. “We aren’t worth anything. We don’t get results (in 16months) so its just fucking useless!” Oh and by the way, “so and so” who are mere commenters also agree with me, so there!

How childish, TFH.

Why don’t YOU explain how your whining about this has benefited men?

Please?

Explain how your “tough love” has worked.

I think that you are simply trying to make a name for yourself by discrediting the MRM – kind of a low-down and shifty tactic, actually. Get known as an attacker and destroyer, rather than a builder of something himself.

Results, TFH, what are you doing to bring them about?

Sitting around within a “non-existant movement” wasting all your time complaining about how everyone hasn’t done enough to your satisfaction is not helping anyone at all.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 8
assman September 5, 2010 at 07:15

The CDC’s Uniform Definitions and Recommended Data Elements can be found at the link below:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/pub-res/ipv_surveillance/Intimate%20Partner%20Violence.pdf

“The CDC’s Uniform Definitions and Recommended Data Elements declares that partner violence includes ”

Wrong. According to the CDC this constitutes Pschological and Emotional Abuse. It is only considered violence “when there has also
been prior physical or sexual violence, or prior threat of physical or sexual violence.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Avenger September 5, 2010 at 07:22

TFH should be ignored

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 24
Rebel September 5, 2010 at 08:06

“Avenger September 5, 2010 at 07:22
TFH should be ignored”

All voices must be heard. It doesn’t matter if we disagree. We have this tendency to cast aside those who disagree with us: wrong way, in my opinion.

There has to be be dissenting voices and they must be heard and analysed.

We have all been cast into the same shit bucket.
Somehow, we have to find a way out of this mess together.
There IS an MRM movement: it is in its infancy and growing.

It matters little if the majority of men are still on the mangina side. That will change.

But we must stick together if we are to make any significant progress.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1
Anonymous age 68 September 5, 2010 at 08:24

In late 1984, I was “chair” at a Father’s Rights meeting. A new attendee said, “You guys are a bunch of losers.”

I said, “Tell me more.”

He said, “If you weren’t such a bunch of losers, you’d have a team of lawyers and a big office.”

I said, “Will you start the ball rolling by paying $15 annual dues?”

He said, “I am not paying dues to a bunch of losers.” He got up and walked out.

I explained to the group that his idea of a successful organization would be when we heard his sad tale of woe, we would immediately stop working for all other men, who of course, deserved everything which happened to them, and provide him with $100,000 of legal services at our expense, because he, unlike all other men, did not deserve what was happening to him.

And, if we did this, and he won his kids, he might, or might not, pay his $15 annual dues.

As far as visible movements of men goes, little has changed since that loser called us losers.

But, over the last 35+ years that I have been involved in debate on men’s issues and feminists, there has been a great change in men, and we are winning, one man at a time, in the only way men can possibly win this battle.

Men are withdrawing from the marriage game, which as much as women whine, is the only game that means much to most of them.

From DGM-2, with added data:

Number of Marriages per 1,000
Unmarried Women Age 15 and
Older, by Year, United States:

1922 99 (found on Web)
1960 73.5
1961 72.2
1962 71.2
1963 73.4
1964 74.6
1965 75.0
1966 75.6
1967 76.4
1968 79.1
1969 80.0
1970 76.5
1972 77.9
1975 66.9
1977 63.6
1980 61.4
1983 59.9
1985 56.2
1987 55.7
1990 54.5
1991 54.2
1992 53.3
1993 52.3
1995 50.8
2000 46.5
2004 39.9
2007 39.2 (Rutgers 2009)
2008 37.4 (Rutgers 2009)

In spite of all the bravado, and all the women who tell us how wonderful it is to be a single mom, most women who do want husbands are not finding them, one woman at a time. And, it is getting worse all the time.

Y’all need to find out what has happened to the very real MRM over the last 25 years. I doubt most of you know one even existed. It was a conventional movement, with leaders and all that rot. The minute you have a leader, you have a target, and there is no man who can take the bullets in the back that MRM leaders receive, and still function any length of time. In the 80′s, it was around 18 months average, and as I said, the bullets came in the back.

The feminists and judges and cops and legislators and uncounted manginas don’t even need to attack our leaders. Other members of the MRM wipe them out without outside help.

Any effective movement has to be leaderless, and it has to be a ghost organization, and that is what we have, and it isn’t even on the Web, though it gets nurture there. I realize many MRM guys claim the marriage strike is not the answer. Actually, it is working great. There are a growing number of women who have noticed that marriage is broken, and when they ask why, a few of them, the smarter ones, realize marriage is a bad deal for men. They are starting to talk among themselves, and that helps a lot.

Will it work? Of course not. No nation ever taken over by women has ever survived, and this one won’t, either. Outside forces do not wait for idiots to get smart. Or, as I often say, the Huns are coming and they are pissed.

But, when a man refuses to be eaten by divorce sharks, his life is better. He also avoids bringing children into the misery of single and divorced motherhood.

When a man finds a better life in a male-friendly country, men such as John Nada and myself, there is one more man who finds some degree of happiness instead of the misery and loneliness and poverty experienced by millions of divorced men.

There are an estimated millions of men who have left the US. and the UK census folks admit they are missing a million (or more) men, and that is after imputing more than a million men they could not find, either, but think might possibly be there somewhere. (Hahaha.)

Each new generation of the MRM makes the same mistake. I have heard it over the years. “You losers accomplished nothing, so we don’t want to hear what you have to say.”

Good job!!! Because the tactics tried historically did not work, and cannot work, don’t find out what we tried nor why it didn’t work. DO THE SAME EXACT THINGS WE DID AND EXPECT DIFFERENT RESULTS. Wasn’t it Einstein who had something to say about that?

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 30 Thumb down 0
thehermit September 5, 2010 at 08:29

There definitely is MRM, and its influence on society is growing. Everybody knows that, who was around in the past few years.

Let’s look at the feminsts, how desperate they are nowadays. They are scared.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2
Robert September 5, 2010 at 09:34

Snark September 5, 2010 at 05:10
I used to be irritated by TFH’s mantra that there is no Men’s Rights Movement.

That was before I understood his purpose in saying it.

‘Tough love’ is quite correct; the MRM, as it now stands, exists mainly online, and in isolated pockets of activity IRL.

What TFH is saying is that we would be better served by an active MRM which campaigned in real life. That’s all.

The question is how we get from here to there.

Good question Snark. IMHO, by wise, careful, and prudent planning and effective strategies. We must forget fighting fair and be ruthless where need be. We must recognize and sieze every opportunity that presents itself. Have you ever watched a sword fight?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0
Robert September 5, 2010 at 09:54

thehermit September 5, 2010 at 08:29
There definitely is MRM, and its influence on society is growing. Everybody knows that, who was around in the past few years.

Let’s look at the feminsts, how desperate they are nowadays. They are scared.

As they should be. They burned alot of bridges and built faulty ones.

Women are N.O.W. “liberated, why do they need feminism N.O.W. ? Can anyone say; ” They didn’t understand cause and effect”?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Sean MacCloud September 5, 2010 at 10:22

Rebel September 4, 2010 at 16:07

In all primitive matriarchies, justice is approximate and swift. The laws are unwritten and subject to interpretation.

The state of justice in our country is a clear indication (one more) that we have definitely a state of matriarchy, wall-to-wall.

A return to justice (and patriarchy) is going to be a hard battle to fight as we will have to wrestle power from women.

Be patient and be brave. Many will fall before things are turned around.

We were unable to curtail the rise of feminism. It’s going to be a lot tougher now.

Arnold Toynbee insisted that if humans, in any civilization, fail to overcome challenges, the same challenge will present itself again, but it becomes more difficult at every turn.

Failure to overcome a challenge may well result in the collapse of the civilization.
====

We do not come matriarchies made patriarchal by civilization. Absurd.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 11
Troll King September 5, 2010 at 10:43

2 million men a year gettting fucked over, too bad they all don’t have guns and a clear direction cause this shit would be over immediately.

Why all the jumping on TFH? I agree that his complaining about lack of a actual movement is a bit grating but let’s be real. Im not exactly an activist, not in the sense that other movements have activists. Ive bitched on the internet, written 3 letters and placed about 50 flyers around my campus in the mens rooms that were ripped down within a week. Not activism when compared to the vagina monologues and take back the night and entire systematic organizations with one goal in mind; MORE POWER!

Well, I don’t want power. I want Freedom and Liberty.

I do think there is a great awaking taking place. I was thinking especially with younger guys. Are feminists so stupid that they think they can mind fuck not one, not two, not three but four generations of men and boys and not expect blowback? YES, they are that stupid.

The mrm is starting to get more mainstream, atleast ive seen actual newspapers and lamestream media dissing us, so it’s a step in the right direction.

I know alot of younger guys are receptive, at 18 I worked manual labor with alot of different guys, and 70% of them were divorced. When I saw a guy run over his foot with a pallet jack carrying a 10,000lb pallet and he said this, “fuck, don’t have healthcare or money for the ER cause of my ex, time to turn myself in for back child support and get that free jailhouse healthcare.” It made an impression on me.

Most guys my age have no intention of getting married and one reason they aren’t active in the mrm is because they are too busy having fun. For the first time in history men have more disposable income and they are spending it. I do know that most younger guys are noticing how women are, I hear it all the time and I occasionally drop hints to mrm sites. But mainly I steer them in the right direction. If you want younger guys on board don’t tell them what to do. men hate that and even more us younger guys do because that’s all that we have been told our entire lives and it’s always contradictory cause most of us grew up around women.

I do think that we may be using too much of a feminist strategy, and I don’t think we will win by copying the feminists. Which seems to be happening less than several years ago but I have heard guys, when I bring up these issues at the bar for ex, say “those mra guys are just like feminists, but not as bad.”

Hearing that really made me think of some things, first and foremost that most guys are sick of feminist crap being pushed down their throats from preschool onward and even more, they don’t want to be associated with it or any thing that resembles it.

Alot of you guys talk about how men need incentives to marry, well, where is the incentive for the common man to be in the mrm? Why be with us when skateboarding, motorcycling, scuba, white water rafting, camping, and getting drunk and chasing endless pussy is more fun? I do think alot of guys do get tired of chasing the dragon(pussy and booze/weed/drugs) and do think about alot of this stuff, but then there’s still video games and traveling. Where are the incentives?

I think we need a mrm 101 type site. Or maybe a spearhead kit that is simple and cheap and could be used for activism. Maybe some podcasts detailing the many problems men face.

I know that alot of businesses are catching on, in my area the local rock radio station has a mensday wensday, where they trash women and celebrate men.Even the female DJs get into it. Ive been thinking of getting together some youtube videos and podcasts and dropping them off at the local radio stations and college stations, it would be great if there was atleast some audio commentary from the spearhead. Id burn it on dvds and drop it off at the radio stations. I know that the morning guy, he does alot of mens issues like mainstream divorce payouts but he never mens any mrm lingo, like getting a pussy pass. But i did see him cover a story about a woman shooting her husband while he slept and he complained about tthe double standard alot in that segment, with regards to prison terms for women.

One of the biggest problems for younger guys is that there isn’t a clear alternative path. If there is one thing that kimmel is probably correct about, it’s that younger guys are just waffling about without any clear road to adulthood/manhood.

There are an estimated millions of men who have left the US. and the UK census folks admit they are missing a million (or more) men, and that is after imputing more than a million men they could not find, either, but think might possibly be there somewhere. (Hahaha.)

Dude, do you have any statistics or a link on that, cause I would like to see. it. Ill do some googling.

What exactly do you guys envision when you talk about movements? Do you really want a political movement with senators and the like? 1 million + men going their own way sounds like a movement to me.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0
Rebel September 5, 2010 at 10:56

@Sean Mac Cloud:

“We do not come matriarchies made patriarchal by civilization. Absurd.”

I don’t mind you calling it absurd. But would you care to explain?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
Snark September 5, 2010 at 11:11

I think we need a mrm 101 type site.

Hold that thought …

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 11:28

HurleyHacker,

Your assessment of the MRM Is probably closer to the mark than most of us would admit too.

Thank you. I would love, love, love to see results. But I just can’t say that Men’s Rights is getting even as much traction as something obscure like Free Tibet protests.

Whenever I mention unfair anti-male laws to a new person, they become interestest, but inevitably ask “Why don’t people protest it?”. All I can say is that a lot of men are shamed into silence. I certainly can’t point a new guy towards a place where they can join up to a movement for Men’s Rights. If I were to say something absurd like Rob does, that ‘there are secret Sun Tzu activities going on’, a new person would be rightly underwhelmed and unimpressed.

People like Rob Fedrz will throw all sorts of hissy fits, rather than address the main point : To be a movement, there have to be a) evidence of efforts to further the cause, and b) an easy way for newly interested people to join up.

But as this does not exist, there is no Men’s Rights Movement. It is a proto-movement, but not a movement.

Rob will continue to write long hysterical screeds, but will fail to address these two extremely basic points above. Results matter, rob, like it or not.

Snark,

That was before I understood his purpose in saying it.

‘Tough love’ is quite correct; the MRM, as it now stands, exists mainly online, and in isolated pockets of activity IRL.

What TFH is saying is that we would be better served by an active MRM which campaigned in real life. That’s all.

Yes, Snark! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 6
TFH September 5, 2010 at 11:34

Avenger,

TFH should be ignored

Brilliant. Shrink the proto-movement of Men’s Rights even further. I have done more to make these concepts mainstream than most people.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 8
TFH September 5, 2010 at 11:39

Robert,

by wise, careful, and prudent planning and effective strategies. We must forget fighting fair and be ruthless where need be. We must recognize and sieze every opportunity that presents itself.

Yes. Good.

Trollking,

I agree that his complaining about lack of a actual movement is a bit grating but let’s be real.

Not activism when compared to the vagina monologues and take back the night and entire systematic organizations with one goal in mind; MORE POWER!

Yes. Good. And kudos for actually posting the flyers, etc. This is the sort of thing that makes a difference.

As far as I know, only you, newlydivorced, and I have actually posted flyers in Men’s rooms. Just 3 people. But I think this has already had a big impact.

I know alot of younger guys are receptive,

Yes. But we don’t have a Movement that is easy for new guys to detect and join up to. Let’s face it, whenever a new guy asks ‘why don’t we hear more about these injustices if things are so bad?’, there isn’t an answer that is nearly good enough.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4
TFH September 5, 2010 at 11:43

Rebel

There IS an MRM movement: it is in its infancy and growing.

I mostly agree. That is why I call it a ‘proto-Movement’. This drives Rob batshit, but he invariably fails to address the actual points I bring up.

It is growing. In the process of growth, the MRAs who were not results-driven will get sidelined, and appropriately so.

Robert, Rebel, Snark, and Trollking have all said things on this thread that I agree with.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3
TFH September 5, 2010 at 11:58

Rob the Inactivist wrote :

So far all I have seen you accomplish is to run Angry Harry off of the Spearhead with your incessant fucking whining that “the MRM is not a real movement.”

I ran off Angry Harry? Moi? Even though I share Men’s Rights goals, and helped him more in the Kevin Driscoll case than anyone else here (including you) did? Even though I defended him from others? For the record, I wish he came back.

I doubt AH is as weak as you claim him to be. If he is, how can such thin-skinned people ever hope to fight feminism?

You just don’t get it, do you?

I think that you are simply trying to make a name for yourself by discrediting the MRM

As I often say, when anyone makes a waaaaay off-base accusation, projection is the source.

My blog is not even about this subject. Just one article. I have a much bigger name already than anyone like you has.

If anything, it is YOU trying to make a name for yourself by attacking The Futurist for my valid observations (which you continue to avoid). Classic status-climbing of the blogosphere variety.

Listen to yourself, rob. You have truly gone off the deep end.

It would be nice if you actually cared about advancing Men’s Rights, rather than being an armchair whiner. I don’t mind you piggybacking off of me if it actually helps Men’s Rights. But I am not going to stop demanding you show the results of your ‘efforts’, even if the truth hurts.

Actions and results matter, rob. You just don’t get it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 10
W.F. Price September 5, 2010 at 12:10

Is Carey Roberts actually guest-posting here, or has someone else just copied and pasted the article?

Yes, he’s actually sending me his articles. I’d never post something without approval — that would be a copyright violation.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 12:14

Yes, he’s actually sending me his articles.

Good! That counts as a major win, and an increase in exposure.

We might just see the end of VAWA on the horizon…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2
Sean MacCloud September 5, 2010 at 13:38

@Rebel.
Male violence scares females beneath a certain sex value threshold. Primatoids are known for “brutish uncivilized” behavior.

Meanwhile, civilization IS male mutual wrist-grabbing daisy chain; then female sex value chicanery increases (untethered now and emboldened); males lose leverage vs females in slippery slope snowball over generations.

e voila: feminism

Took a long time but here we is.

Further, any matriarchy of the past tale was a canard (late 19th century (jew /goy) wishful thinking BS that grew legs for a while). Long since debunked/or admitted BS. (And don’t read D Amneus: he was not a biologist or anthropologist or anything real. What he was was a divorced father of the first wave in the 60s there[probably rendered insane by break water to his face].)

Ie you should be providing evidence for matriarchies rather than asking me to provide evidence that primatoids are brutes where females don’t touch male tool kit AT ALL(hence males control protection which gives them some leverage for one example of male leverage; sexual-jealously-motivated hitting would be another).

Blacks are not in ghettos now because they are “reverting to matriarchies.” There are hundreds of differences between black ghettos (which are unique to civilization) and black tribes of africa (no less ancient tribes of africa before the euros came there and corrupted them). A glaring difference is that we –the euros –curtail black male jealousy and its violence vs females and prop up female headed households through outside-the-community intervention unique to our western civilization.

(A civilization created because all of you are warped and don’t think clearly at all. Eg: freedom-from-state rhetoric as a tactic for stopping this state that has formed from your freedom rhetoric; also the english language itself is another fine example of warped brains.])

One must be pretty blind to not see this stuff.

You don’t think black (or whoever) tribesmen hit females? You don’t think getting hit dis emboldens fledgling grrlpower?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 5
Gunn September 5, 2010 at 13:43

@TFH

I liked your Misandry bubble article, and have pointed a lot of people on various forums to it via links and recommendations. I think its a good summary of inter-sex relations and where we are in the world today.

Having said that, I am bemused by your constant whining on the spearhead over the last few months about the MRM not existing or being a proper movement. Despite your protestations otherwise, your comments are not constructive; I’ve never seen you articulate ways that you personally are trying to change things or offer means by which other men can make positive changes. Instead, you are like the snarky emo teenager looking at life and saying ‘it sucks, I hate life, we should all kill ourselves’.

You need to grow up and start being constructive. Your statements about ‘tough love’ are pure fucking bullshit; whatever you might believe, at the moment you’re part of the problem. I’d really like for you to prove me wrong, but I have a strong suspicion that you’ll just attack me via ad-hominem rather than consider how you could make a positive change.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 5
TFH September 5, 2010 at 14:19

Gunn,

I’ve never seen you articulate ways that you personally are trying to change things or offer means by which other men can make positive changes.

I have actually posted about this many times. I have listed low-cost, high-impact tactics men can do, and I myself have done some of them (post flyers above urinals at convention centers when big conferences are going on).

In fact, in this very thread, I said MRAs need to organize field trips to family court so that men can see what happens firsthand. You conveniently avoided that.

I have also written at length about how Game does in fact tip the power balance in favor of men, even if the men running Game are young college kids with no inkling of judicial misandry.

Gunn, you need to do more research before lashing out in incomplete information and engaging in ad hominems.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3
TFH September 5, 2010 at 14:33

So, Gunn, I don’t recall seeing your comments before, and there does not seem to be a track record you have built yet…

So please organize a field trip like the one I described. I will praise you to the high skies if you do (just like I praise Trollking and newlydivorced for having posted flyers in men’s rooms).

I truly want you to do this. Seriously.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3
Harrytoo September 5, 2010 at 14:47

Anonymous age 68 September 5, 2010 at 08:24

Don’t despair anon. You may have been there when the ball was started rolling with fathers rights. The drop in marriage has been a definite advantage as far as men are concerned but I think it may have taken this long to see results because it’s taken this long for the full effects of feminist selfishness to be realised. Fathers no doubt have always been unfairly treated by divorce courts, if anything that’s become worse because of feminism. I hope this, you’ve kept yourself healthy enough to live long enough to see the end of unfairness to men. There is a change in the wind, lets hope it turns into a hurricane against feminism. That’s everywhere feminism exists, not just the USA, or the English speaking nations but everywhere its slithered like the snake it is. If feminism is left anywhere in the world, the cancer hasn’t been beaten.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

From the little I skimmed of this page an interesting discussion has taken place. It doesn’t hurt for men to bang heads occasionally, even comrades. As usual with me in such cases I can see both sides of the argument so won’t add anything for either argument. I will say this, lets not forget the ultimate goals gents. Just another fella throwing his thoughts into the ring.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 14:49

rob asked :

Who the hell are Dragnet & Roosh?

Heh. Two of Roosh’s books are advertised prominently at the top of the right column here. Surely you can’t be serious with your question. Dragnet happens to write some of the most brilliant comments around.

I suspect far, far more people would ask “Who the hell is Rob Fedrz?”, which itself is a metaphor of what I have been saying about the lack of visibility that Men’s Rights is getting.

Heh.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6
Anonymous September 5, 2010 at 14:55

TFH and the Misandry Bubble fucking rule, but I agree TFH needs to lay off the hatorade a bit and just be patient. Who knows, maybe in 3 years there might be a small but prominent realworld MRM. Perhaps by the time the Misandry bubble bursts the MRM will be a fireball of feminist flaying rage.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 5, 2010 at 15:22

Like I’ve said in the past, at the very least we should be promoting this and other MRM sites. I do already. I may even become a 47 year old graffiti criminal next, who knows. I’m sure I’ll think of something.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 15:33

lay off the hatorade a bit and just be patient.

I made an innocuous comment just a couple of sentences long, that triggered the whole thing.

Plus, I always am quick to praise anyone who actually does something.

Who knows, maybe in 3 years there might be a small but prominent realworld MRM.

That would be excellent. All of us should be in it.

The Misandry Bubble pops by 2020 even without a mobilized MRM. A real MRM would move that date sooner, and would reduce the number of men who get ruined in the interim. Hence, it is desirable.

So my desire for there to be a real, mobilized MRM is due a wish for things to speed up, and for the damage to men to be less.

It would suck to be the last few men killed before a war ends. Think of those men…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6
Harrytoo September 5, 2010 at 15:41

TFH, you have a valid argument but wars can be lost by pushing to early or with too few men. The time will come and I too hope the sooner the better. Perhaps a think tank for ideas? There certainly seem enough intelligent men to put ideas forward. Can I suggest forgetting the usual alpha need to lead? That’s liable to end in more head butting and fragmentation.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 15:44

Perhaps a think tank for ideas?

That would make a huge difference. This is an idea I stated in the Misandry Bubble itself.

I would start one myself, but there are of course major personal risks in doing that. But if we started one, all sorts of articles could be merged into top-flight policy papers.

Elements of learning from Game, as well as from judicial intricacies, all could be woven into policy papers.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4
Harrytoo September 5, 2010 at 15:51

As usual I’m going to be humble and point out my lack of education but even I see that is at least a step forward indeed Bill (Welmer) has himself taken a step forward and opened himself up as a target. We owe it to men that are putting their names out there to at least do a little more. Ok I need to hit the hay but will keep my eyes open for progress on this thought. Or even further thoughts on this thought.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 16:04

I see that is at least a step forward indeed Bill (Welmer) has himself taken a step forward and opened himself up as a target.

Yes, that is huge. And courageous.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3
Harrytoo September 5, 2010 at 16:09

”That would make a huge difference. This is an idea I stated in the Misandry Bubble itself.”

Just so you know, I didn’t nick your idea, until tonight I didn’t even know the Misandry Bubble existed. There’s the problem.

I do now and will add it to the other pages I look at. Gents can I point out Dick Masterson had stickers?

Auf wieder sprechen. Until we talk again.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 5, 2010 at 16:19

Another suggestion from a newcomer before I hit the hay. Can someone that’s been here for a while actually ask Angry Aitch to come back. That may be all it would take. You know what us blokes can be like.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
TFH September 5, 2010 at 16:32

Can someone that’s been here for a while actually ask Angry Aitch to come back.

Agreed. I certainly didn’t want him to leave.

And the notion that ‘rob’ has that *I*, of all people, ran him out, is actually hugely insulting to AH. Rob has made AH look thin-skinned, and far too weak to actually fight feminists.

I certainly didn’t want him to leave.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4
RealityCheck September 5, 2010 at 17:19

The real answer here: Never get married. Never trust him or her. Always require proof of devotion. And leave the moment you’d rather be alone than with him/her ever again. Emotional maturity is the cornerstone.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2
MacArthur Of The MRM September 5, 2010 at 17:26

I wish people would move out of the stone age and into the present.

THE MRM IS A RESOUNDING SUCCESS!

The MRM is the first internet inspired revolution. You can’t measure it by the old standards. And since when has popularity been a measure of success. Do spies have to be popular? The MRM is purely grass roots at the moment. It will become “popular” at precisely the right time. Here’s an example of how powerful the MRM is. I haven’t voted since ’96. But thanks to Obama, Reid, Pelosi et al, I decided to vote to run those skunks out of office. But at the last minute I backed out because I didn’t want to possibly be called for jury duty. But thanks to Avenger I’ve decided that I am going to register to vote so I can perhaps kill two birds with on stone: run the skunks out of office and hang a jury that’s attempting to hang a man.

I get so tired of these professional skeptics. I can agree with a little bit of it but most of it is just plain bogus. The MRM is doing great and is giving the right people nightmares.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2
Avenger September 5, 2010 at 18:46

TFH wrote, I wish that were true, but whiteknights/manginas are still far more numerous than men who get it.

It only takes ONE man to hang a jury so even if there are more white knights and maginas we can still control the juries and outcomes of trials.

Now in England you can convict on a 10-2 but you can also acquit on that too so if you get a couple of stubborn feminists on a jury you’ll still be able to acquit and not have the guy retried if there’s a hung jury.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1
Amax September 5, 2010 at 18:49

I have to agree with TFH in the respect that the MRM movement isn’t the same as any movement womyn had in the past. However, as MacArther has stated, it is still a success and continues to be such as more and more men say no to marriage and therefore the only bastion womyn really have over men for the most part. Womyn have achieved their success through standing up and being heard, men will achieve the same success, simply by sitting down and NOT taking action.

Makes you really wonder how powerful men really are huh?

To follow the paradigm set forth by women in the past is foolhardy, no one is going to give credence to a man’s position in the current situation. The governement will listen to Feminists and feminsts have too much power at the moment. But, when the econonmic shortfall gets too large as men stop producing, this is when men will gain some leverage in terms of the government and women will lose quite a bit of theirs.

In truth, we men are far stronger than we give ourselves credit for, we just simply don’t understand how much power we really wield which has no doubt been undermined due to the feminized media and such. Just as I told a friend of mine on Friday, do not believe womyn when they say that we are lucky to marry them, it really is the other way around. We have just been programmed to believe otherwise.

The MRM is quiet, but real, the marriage strike is ongoing and undermining feminism and therefore the government.

Just say no, right?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0
Avenger September 5, 2010 at 18:53

Mac, if you ever do serve on a jury just remember that if there’s a voir dire you want to appear to be Mr Average. Never reveal or talk about what you intend to do. I wouldn’t even get into any arguments with the jurors during deliberations. If a man is being tried then your job is to only discuss and point out the exculpatory evidence to the jurors. Ignore any damning evidence they bring up and just shoot holes in it. You may convince them to acquit but at the very least you can hang the jury.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3
TFH September 5, 2010 at 23:21

Amax, many thanks.

I had no intention to trigger this debate at this time, I just made a routine two-sentence innocuous comment about how it would be nice to organize field trips for men to sit in the pews of Family Court and see what goes down, and that this sort of thing needs to happen for a real Movement to form.

One guy (but just one) went batshit hysterical, as he often does.

But I have agreed with the comments of HurleyHacker, Trollking, Snark, Rebel, Robert, Amax, and Harrytoo. That is quite a few.

Other disagreements (Gunn) have still been polite, even if misinformed.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 00:26

RealityCheck September 5, 2010 at 17:19
The real answer here: Never get married. Never trust him or her. Always require proof of devotion. And leave the moment you’d rather be alone than with him/her ever again. Emotional maturity is the cornerstone.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

How exactly does this protect a man from financial ruin? How does this make certain a man gets equal access to his children?

You should have stopped when you got to the word married. Cohabitation being the same.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 00:34

Amax September 5, 2010 at 18:49

”men will achieve the same success, simply by sitting down and NOT taking action.”
……………………….

An awful lot of truth in these words. Imagine if the numbers of the MRM swelled so the sitting down was more than just marriage. Remember who makes the world go round. It aint women. men make society work, women do what they’ve always done, put their hands out for their share. They just get greedy from time to time and governments can be stupid.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
Gunn September 6, 2010 at 02:08

So, Gunn, I don’t recall seeing your comments before, and there does not seem to be a track record you have built yet…

So please organize a field trip like the one I described. I will praise you to the high skies if you do (just like I praise Trollking and newlydivorced for having posted flyers in men’s rooms).

I truly want you to do this. Seriously.

I haven’t had as bad an experience in general as many men on this site (I’ve never been married, had kids taken away from me etc), however I became aware of the MRM via game sites such as Roissy’s about 18 months ago. A lot of it makes sense (especially the game related material), and it provided me various ‘eureka’ moments where many things suddenly made sense about womens’ behaviour and my past relationships.

My background (professionally and personal interest wise) is such that I tend to view a lot of whats discussed more from an economic angle and the impact on wider society. I think a lot of the changes that are discussed on sites like the Spearhead will be driven through via economic realities rather than direct political lobbying, and have therefore started to look into what information and statistics are available in this area. Incidentally, this is why I liked the misandry bubble article that you wrote (which is a good ‘starting’ document I think for people who have not already been exposed to game type analysis).

In addition, I am currently bouncing around the idea of writing a book that contains a lot of material that would be familiar to readers of sites like this one, but dressed up in a more innocuous way (and in a novel format rather than a non-fiction work); I think to get into the mainstream as it currently stands, the message needs to be more in line with what people expect but with undercurrents that make them think about whats going wrong with society today.

I’m also based in the UK, where the realities on the ground are different to the US; I do think that the UK still has slightly more ‘sense’ left in terms of relationships between the sexes, and this changes the kind of action that is most effective in my view. So for the time being, I’ll pass on the fields trips and the flyers because I think there are other things I could do that would be more useful.

One other thing, I tend to be more active on the forum than on comments to articles on the site, mainly because I prefer to write about things that I have direct experience of or interest in, which means that I don’t have stuff to add on articles about messy divorces or children being taken away etc. In many ways its a shame that the forum isn’t more active (I get the impression that its a much smaller group of people that regularly read and comment there) as it has more diverse content than the main page articles.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Snark September 6, 2010 at 04:00

If I recall correctly, Angry Harry left at around the time Jay posted his article lambasting MND and FRS (which I still think was completely out of line, even if we’re on the same page the rest of the time). It wasn’t the article itself but the reactions this caused. There was a LOT of drama and infighting that week. And amidst it all was mikeeUSA and possibly the manhood101 guys (I think) being generally abusive. Everything went to shit. This was when I was considering leaving as well. There was one particular troll I think who made it a truly nasty place to be for a while.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Snark September 6, 2010 at 04:01

But TFH had nothing to do with any of that.

AH’s altercations with TFH happened some time before that, if I recall correctly.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Gunn September 6, 2010 at 04:45

Full disclosure: I was somewhat ‘tired and emotional’ [i.e. drunk for those not familiar with the euphemism ;-) ] when making my post yesterday, so was a little harsh.

However, I stand by my comment that seeing the statement that the MRM is not even a proto-movement in pretty much any thread that TFH posts in does grate. I read it the first time TFH posted the statement, and I appreciate where it was coming from, but it becomes a chore to keep seeing it stated.

I think part of the frustration I have is that I think TFH represents one of the heavyweight ‘intellectuals’ in MRA circles and to see someone who could be posting something insightful and worth reading instead keep banging on the same tired drum is a bit disappointing.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Gunn September 6, 2010 at 04:53

Perhaps a think tank for ideas?

That would make a huge difference. This is an idea I stated in the Misandry Bubble itself.

I would start one myself, but there are of course major personal risks in doing that. But if we started one, all sorts of articles could be merged into top-flight policy papers.

Elements of learning from Game, as well as from judicial intricacies, all could be woven into policy papers.

I like this idea and think it would be worthwhile. My expertise lies more in the business / economics / finance spheres, and I would be happy to contribute to such a think tank where such articles might be useful or relevant. However, I would state up front I would only do this anonymously at this point in time due to the impact such involvement can have on one’s career. I wish it were different, however I’m not yet financially independent and being out of work would not be fun.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
The Caliph September 6, 2010 at 06:29

@ Snark, TFH

You need to wait for the moment when the time for the idea has come.

We will all know when the time has come to mobilise and go frontal active.
Right now subterfuge is my prefered option.

Have conversations with men you come in contact with IRL and plant seeds, test the waters. I just had a conversation with a client today, who said he was married once for 12months and will never marry again. The convo started when he mentioned buying a house and i asked how big, and found out it wasn’t family size.

He’s gonna make the girlfirend he bought it with sign court documents, protecting his half of the assets. My point? This guy has never heard of MRM before. But has reached the same conclusions and is making the same moves many of us here would advise. AND!!! he’s having a conversation with me telling him i reached the exact same conclusion, he is now even more convinced that his positiomn is rational and wise. I’m the younger man and i’m supporting he’s conclusion. He leaves the conversation knowing there are other men especially younger men under 30 reaching the same conclusions as him. So he’s not crazy or committment phobe or, being irrational, or immature or hedonistic or what have you.

He’ll will have more conversations, and realise more men have reached similar conclusions, and taking similar action. The growing strenght of the numbers wil start to be tangible.

When the time of the idea comes it will take hold, when the time comes, and a necessary saturation point has been reached, and enough individual men find themselves reaching the same coincidental conclusions and they are freely talking about it? Then the time is right.

I still personaly believe the best advantage MRM has is that it has no centre, no leadership, that is an advantage because we will not be susceptible to a centre assault.

The current strategy now is good. Yes you’re not crazy young man there is misandry in the world, yes you can learn form others experiences here and discuss with other men.

Subterfuge is a better strategy for now, have discussions amano amano, plant ideas. Men will pay it forward.

The ideas time is coming, wait for it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 06:43

”I’m also based in the UK, where the realities on the ground are different to the US; I do think that the UK still has slightly more ‘sense’ left in terms of relationships between the sexes, and this changes the kind of action that is most effective in my view. So for the time being, I’ll pass on the fields trips and the flyers because I think there are other things I could do that would be more useful.”

Gunn: Uk here too. I think you’d change your opinion of what you call sense towards marriage here in the UK. Even if you have a successful marriage, trust me on this, if you evaluated it from an outside perspective, you’d see who exactly marriage makes sense to. I’d challenge any male to write even a small list of. She gains. He gains. The list will be very much longer on the she gains side and get this, it won’t be enough. Once she has children and starts mixing with her chosen coven. You’ll suddenly find her wanting more and more and more. It’s like a competition for women and the donkey will be you.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 06:53

”Subterfuge is a better strategy for now, have discussions amano amano, plant ideas. Men will pay it forward.”

Which is one of the reasons ‘some’ of the females that post ‘could’ be here.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 06:59

Don’t forget, when signing documents to protect your assets, children change the dynamics. The children will be brought into the equation because they need to be cared for financially too. By default, women profit from the fact they invariably gain custody, even here in the UK Gunn. Men such as myself will take piss poor settlements to make sure the children aren’t over affected by the divorce. Men do these things for their children. Women know this.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
SingleDad September 6, 2010 at 07:03

Maybe those of us winning the MRM aren’t spouting these successes because we don’t want to give the enemy intel.

All I have to say is I raise my son without problems, pay no child support, and am planning to retire at 55.

Is my life perfect, no. I did this from stuff I leaned from the online mrm.

I cannot express my gratitude to those brave enough to write about whats right.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 07:06

”Maybe those of us winning the MRM aren’t spouting these successes because we don’t want to give the enemy intel.”

All the more reason for a think tank that’s 100% female free.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 07:20

When divorce and a woman are concerned, there is no such thing as NAWALT

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 07:28

I’ll even go as far as to guess, some of those women ‘supporting’ the MRM are more concerned about losing the privileges they may lose in divorce. Or paternity fraud becoming something men start suing them for. Or even men considering it imperative they know the child they’re about to bond with and support through life is actually his.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Gunn September 6, 2010 at 07:39

Re: marriage in uk, i agree its bad, its why i refuse to even think about doing it. What i was talking about was more things like FRAs and the general attitude to dv and sexist legislation. Eg we dont have VAWA here. Its not great here but i get the impression that the US is worse.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 07:53

Ye mate, I’m coming to the same conclusion. It almost makes me glad I live in our shit hole.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 07:56

Just remember cohabitation and children give them the same ‘rights’ to treat you like a host.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
rob September 6, 2010 at 08:38

Get off it Fifth. I am throwing a tantrum & a hissy fit? Since I made a post complaining (for about the third time in history) about your stupidity in following this argument with such vigor, you have made seventeen responses – many filled with baseless ad hominen attacks and flimsly toddler-tantrum-like behaviour.

And, btw, it is you who is insinuating AH is thin-skinned, not me. And you full well know he argued with you on a daily basis for several weeks about this very subject… to the point where he was making strong appeals to Welmer, and then he left with saying that he could not support those who undermined his, and the MRM’s position. Lol! He even went around posting about you after every post you made here, regardless of whether it was on subject or not. But, I will not speak for him, except to say he was not thin-skinned, but rather acted according to his convictions and what he believed to be best for the movement he identifies with.

The way you twist things around in this thread, TFH, reminds me of the passive aggressiveness which females often display. Dissimulation is probably a more accurate word.

And, having everyone run around online calling this a “proto-movement” is just plain silly. It is like GMC launching their new line of green cars and calling them “Mickey Mouse Hybrids.” (Don’t take us seriously, customers, we aren’t really a hybrid manufacturer yet!)

Great. So, within the very word association, you are subconsciously encouraging everyone to write off our views as hardly worthy of taking seriously. After all, they are merely “proto-ideas” from a “proto-movement.” Hell! Don’t take them seriously at all, because even the “proto-MRA’s” insinuate in their very name that their ideas are so obscure as to be ignored! Hell, it’ll take ‘em decades to even become a small movement.

Smooth move, to word associate our views as such, isn’t it? The weight behind a “proto-movement’s” words are about as valuable as a popcorn fart in a hurricane.

You aren’t the first guy to have come up with observations about the nature of the MRM. It has been argued about for years already – including by myself, Zed, and even Angry Harry, amongst a plethora of others. You are not bringing new discussion to the MRM that no-one hasn’t heard 100 times already.

Blah, blah, blah… “Writers! It’s only writers in the MRM!” (Of course, Betty Friedan, Simone de Beauvoir, Robin Morgan, Andrea Dworkin, et. al. were Colonels in the US Military! Wait a minute! That’s not right!)

But, what you have done is gotten oodles of people running around calling ourselves “proto-MRA’s” (fake Activists) in a “proto-movement” (fake movement) which already discredits what we say by simple power of word association. Congratulations on your achievement, TFH! You’ve actually managed to set a miniscule movement backwards!

And, TFH, as far as inactivity and yada yada yada.

If you must know why the MRM is ineffective, it is because of people like you. The armchair General, who does very little himself except leave a few comments here and there – and declares that since things are not to his satisfaction, he will not consider this or that until those people step in line and obey his command.

In other words – Moses syndrome runs rampant through the MRM. Lots of armchair generals, but very few Israelites willing to line up behind him to watch him cast his staff upon the sea.

If you expect some mythical MRM leaders to get Charlie Sheen or Mel Gibson onboard the MRM, good frickin’ luck. Why don’t you start a campaign to get them involved? Why should you demand that no-one ought to take the MRM seriously until the MRM meets your demands? Why don’t you make it so? After all, if it is to be, it is up to me!

The Secret of Life: Shut Up and Shovel the Fuckin’ Gravel!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5
TFH September 6, 2010 at 12:59

Snark,

AH’s altercations with TFH happened some time before that, if I recall correctly.

Yes, much before that. Plus, I would hardly call those ‘altercations’. I share AH’s goals, and have defended him from others a couple of times. I certainly didn’t want him to leave. As Schopenbecq pointed out, too many MRAs interpret a general critique of the slow progress of the MRM as a personal slight (look at Rob).

I never named an individual as being unproductive, just general comments about the slow progress (particularly given how quickly other movements, like the Tea Party, go from zero to sixty in under a year).

Gunn,

I would state up front I would only do this anonymously at this point in time due to the impact such involvement can have on one’s career.

Same problem here. I am a high-visibility person in my industry, and it is likely most men there are whiteknights. Anything we do would have to be via shadowing/supporting someone who stuck his neck out like Bill.

that the MRM is not even a proto-movement

Where do you get the ‘not even’? I say that it IS a proto-m0vement, on account of the many excellent articles written, but relatively little real action happening. It IS a proto-movement. But to become a movement, it has to be easy for all sorts of new people to detect and join, across many dimensions of participation.

The Caliph,

Good points, and well reasoned.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3
TFH September 6, 2010 at 13:29

rob and others,

Let me just summarize some of the stranger and least logical points Rob Fedrz has been repeating.

1) I, TFH, somehow ran AH out of here, despite having no desire to do so, and often praising/defending him in other matters. By saying such a thing, he makes AH look very thin-skinned, far too thin-skinned to fight feminists (I opinion I myself do not hold).

With friends like Rob, AH does not need enemies. Sheesh.

2) He actually expects us to believe he has never heard of Roosh (despite two of Roosh’s books prominently displayed on the right-hand sidebar since the very start of The Spearhead). Roosh’s critiques of MRAs have been quite harsh (far more than mine), and I suspect Rob’s tactic is a result of blocking Roosh out of his mind.

3) Rob extrapolates that linking to The Spearhead, Roissy, and InMalaFide in ‘The Misandry Bubble’ constitutes ‘taking’ content from the ‘Men’s Rights Movement’. That is quite an expansive definition of both ‘taking’ and ‘MRM’.

4) That I am trying to make a name for myself by criticizing the MRM, even though I am quick to praise anyone who actually does something.

I have a much bigger name as a blogger in a completely different subject, so why would it be profitable for me to discredit that which does not exist? It would be far more profitable to attempt to discredit Game (far more visible), in theory. Once again, logic is not Rob’s strength.

5) His incessant claim that the work being done is so super-secret that it is necessary to make it invisible even to the few people who actually care. He writes page-length screeds, but cannot, ever, admit that making it easy to recruit new guys matters. Many other commenters (The Caliph, Harrytoo) have done well to explain why laying low and building gradually make sense. Rob could have exercised some diplomatic elan and done the same, rather than throw hissy fits.

There are many other areas of logical vacuum, of course, but these five stand out as the funniest.

You’ve actually managed to set a miniscule movement backwards!

Actually, I am one of many who has moved it forward from the near-zero state of a year ago. But at least you admit that it is miniscule (sounds like a proto-movement), and have dropped the silly Sun-Tzu claims that fooled no one. I hope this leads you to conclude that work needs to be done. Now go out and post some flyers, like Trollking, newlydivorced, and I have done. I’ll praise you if you do it.

When Men’s Rights actually becomes a movement (which it will), people like Rob who are high on years of seniority but low on action will find their demands for high status within the movement not being honored.

Demolishing a house of straw to build a house of brick in its place, is what is happening here. Bigwigs in the straw house will protest this for a bit.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4
TFH September 6, 2010 at 13:38

Gunn,

part of the frustration I have is that I think TFH represents one of the heavyweight ‘intellectuals’ in MRA circles and to see someone who could be posting something insightful and worth reading instead

At The Futurist, you will see that just 2 days ago, I posted an article on economics, that works in some gender-psych explaining why women are naturally socialist and dislike the fluidity of capitalism, and how feminists steered stimulus money away from much-needed infrastructure work and towards the over-funded education and healthcare sectors. This info is going to an audience completely different from the man-o-sphere audience.

So I am not letting the content side go neglected…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2
TFH September 6, 2010 at 13:43

rob,

“proto-MRA’s” (fake Activists) in a “proto-movement” (fake movement)

It appears you are confused between the meaning of the words ‘proto’ and ‘pseudo’.

‘Proto’ means early. ‘Pseudo’ means fake.

I say ‘proto’.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
Anonymous September 6, 2010 at 14:03

Re: movement or proto-movement

“President Obama is paying attention, too. The White House asked Farrell to create a proposal for a project to benefit boys and men. Its focus — to explore “why boys are falling so far behind in school as well as the emotional and physical health issues of boys and men, and the causes of the mancession,” Farrell says.

Other indicators that a men’s movement is making headway this year: two conferences on men’s issues and a potential new academic field of male study.”

From: http://www.marinij.com/ci_15313318?IADID=Search-www.marinij.com-www.marinij.com

“The White House asked Farrell to create a proposal for a project to benefit boys and men.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Harrytoo September 6, 2010 at 14:07

At this point I’d be finding a couple pairs of boxing gloves for men like myself.
……………………………..

On a positive note.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/proginfo/tv/2010/wk37/feature_school.shtml

Points like these are still being made without pointing out feminist lunacy, greed etc.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
rob September 6, 2010 at 15:48

Lol!

I read to the part of “personal slight,” then seen more ranting and wailing and running around in circles, and thought aaaalllllll the way back to TFH’s earlier comment about “projection” and then I quit reading… there are, after all, several rants in a row again, of much the same tripe, I am sure.

The thing is, TFH, you don’t seem to understand that you are not saying anything new, but in fact, all you are doing is exacerbating the existing problem. And your only justification for carrying this sillyness on for at least six months is “tough love” to a bunch of imaginary leaders.

Zed talks about how there are many phases in which he thought men would wake up – to no avail. Angry Harry himself has often expressed frustration at how slow things are progressing. Anon 68 related his experiences with the MRM further above in this thread as well.

And as I said before, this is not the first time this discussion has come up – although I think it is the first time that someone has tried to virtually create a reputation about it, because after all, TFH, you are pretty much as famous for the word “proto-movement” as you are for writing “The Misandry Bubble.”

If you are going to wait for men to coalesce in society and rise up in unison, under the banner of the Men’s Right’s Movement, you are going to be waiting a loooooooong time!

Comparing ourselves to “other” movements is, in a way, almost a ridiculous hypothesis. “Movements” are herd-like actions, and men are not herd-like, they are individualistic. Thus, even the word “movement” in the sense we keep hoping for is a fantasy, because it is antithetical to the male spirit.

When you join the military, they send you to boot camp to beat the individualistic tendencies out of you, as well as the pride one feels swell up that dictates disrespect towards those ordering you around. This is natural male spirit even the military has to brainwash out of men before they can work effectively as a group.

And that is against a group of other men – not women, who men are hardwired to not oppose, but rather please, in the first place.

A “movement” like feminism could only happen with females opposing men, and it will never happen for men in the same manner.

So “waiting for it,” or “giving it tough love,” or “urging it on” or “being frustrated at its slow progress” is a fool’s errand. I am “waiting” for the moon to stop rising, and I give it “tough love” by closing my curtains and ignoring it, but I am really “frustrated” at the “slow progress” of waiting for “anti-moon movement” to prevent its rising.

No matter what happens, we will not see a movement of men rising up en masse against females – it is not natural – not any more natural than to expect adults to turn on children en masse. It just isn’t going to happen.

But that doesn’t mean that a “movement” doesn’t exist aimed at creating the proper structures we need to survive in society. It doesn’t mean that our memes don’t get attached to other movements – by our own doing – like cutting off feminism’s funding when the shit hits the fan and the tax dollars dry-up. Or, relentlessly pointing out how feminism plays a large role in the academic under-performance of boys in school, and so on and so.

I am afraid that is about the “best” you are going to see as far as a “movement” of men rising up against females. It just isn’t going to happen. So why wait for it?

But our memes can spread far and wide, and affect many other areas of society.

There was no “real” Marxist movement in the West either – not of any significant political size anyway, and yet, Marxists managed to attach their ideas to many other ideas in society and now have a look around us, Marxist thought gurgles up everywhere you look – and yet, no large uprising of people calling for outright Marxism has really ever occurred.

The MRM works in the same way, and will continue to work in the same way. And the small MRM will always be pushing the wire – a little “too radical” as it were, because that’s how movements are supposed to work! Wherever the most radical thoughts are, the majority of people will choose something a little more “middle of the road.” This is how radicals control the debate – because it is by the views of radicals that the middle of the road is determined.

You can already see this happening. A few years ago, arguing about the merits of patriarchy as it existed a century or two ago, would have gotten one severely attacked even amongst many of the MRM sites themselves, but today, the merits of patriarchy are at least understood, if not generally accepted (as real – whether desirable is debatable), and even some women are coming around on occasion and supporting concepts of this “radical” idea.

F. Roger Devlin discusses the same notion in response
to Stephen Baskerville’s following assertion:

”Men, I fear, will have to demand nothing less than the full reestablishment of what feminists call patriarchy—the male-headed family as the normal social unit. This may be a “radical” idea, given how far our society has gone offtrack, but it is hardly revolutionary. It is really just the radical restoration of the natural and traditional order of the human family. Baskerville doubts whether a return to father custody can “find acceptance beyond the fringe of political debate.” I think he is mistaken about this. There is no such thing as a fixed “fringe” to political debate. One of the most important forms of political activity consists precisely in moving the fringe. It took much more determination on the part of homosexuals to get us to where “gay marriage” is discussed with a straight face than it would for normal men to restore the presumption of father custody. Indeed, I suspect that men, once politically united, could dictate almost any terms they wished to women.”

The Men’s Rights Movement exists. But it exists as its own entity. It will never have leaders, nor will it ever have “solidarity” like “the sisterhood” – because men’s nature is to stab other men in the back in order to climb over them. Most people who rise to power, even (or especially) within the MRM, use 90% of that power to destroy other people’s power or to keep others from getting powerful enough to attack them, rather than using their power for constructive good.

In fact, it is because of the very nature of the MRM and its apparent “natural” ineffectiveness, due to male nature, that MGTOW appeared on the scene.

Men Going Their Own Way was, in part, an attempt to utilize the individualistic streak in men that has torn down the MRM for decades, and instead turn it into a strength. Thus, the “army of one” and a “leaderless movement” wherein you can’t get pissed off and quit because you disagree with “the leader” because, um, there is no leader.

And, to a certain degree, it worked! Playing on men’s individualistic tendencies is a much more effective technique than trying to shoe-horn them into a pre-made female model of a “movement” which indicates female-like herd behaviour to begin with.

The Men’s Movement doesn’t need to exist of millions upon millions of screeching activists, even though it would be nice. It will always work differently, and that is what men need to focus on – discovering the mechanics of what makes a “movement” work, and then re-arranging it into something suitable for men. That is men’s only advantage here – we are adaptable to a greater extent than females, and if there’s a different way, men will figure it out somehow, because it’s what men do!

Like I said, the Marxist movement didn’t gain prominence on the Western political stage, and yet small groups of people managed to influence the culture in such profound ways, that Marxist thought is now part of our daily lives – in ways that would have gotten people lynched 30 years ago.

Certainly the Men’s Movement can do the same – and it already is, as it is obvious that our viewpoints are appearing in more and more places, and in greater volume than ever before.

Changing the culture is what matters. An “uprising” or “visibility” is only an advantage is if scurries the masses in one cultural direction or another (See Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc) – which is really the purpose behind most of such activities (psychological rather than physical).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 4
Gunn September 6, 2010 at 17:06

In all honesty, I don’t actually care much what the ‘game’ end of MRAs thinks (Roosh, Roissy et. al) about the ideas at the heart of the MRA.

Game is a technology developed to counter one (admittedly large for most men) area around access to sex in a world where the old paradigm that men worked toward (wealth, employment, taking care of one’s family) no longer provides a man with a worthwhile wife who will stay with him through thick and thin. At the ‘constructive’ end of game you have people who use game to allow them to build a life that at least looks a bit like marriage 1.0 and who are looking to contribute to society as men in the past did (e.g. Hawaiian Libertarian). At the ‘decayed’ end of game you have men that recognise that our civilisation is dying and they use game to enjoy the last gasp before it fades into the night. I see Roosh and Roissy at this end of the scale. Roissy has instances of intellectual brilliance where he puts together wider societal consequences of game and how female hypergamy really works and makes culture, but as far as I know Roosh not so much.

MRA thinking though is broader than just game. Game is a natural gateway to wider MRA thought (there are more visible resources around game on the internet, in books and even on television so common has it become). Older men, or younger men who have drunk their fill of pussy, seem to graduate on from game thinking to the wider MRA thought. E.g. I get the impression that Roissy is on this path, most of the older MRAs here and elsewhere don’t talk much about game (and it appears not to be a prime focus for them), and you also have people like Trollking who is younger but whose thinking is clearly beyond just ‘game’.

As to the idea of an MRM movement, I don’t see this as some kind of unionised construction of men that strike and picket and operate in the traditional sense. My suspicion is that the MRM is something that requires critical mass in terms of men who simply ‘get it’ and change their behaviour accordingly. When society hits critical mass, we’ll start to see more and more debate around female entitlement and then the emergence of political leaders that cater to that demographic. I think we are seeing this start already to be honest, with most online news articles where commentary is allowed showing strong trends of men questioning feminist principles and entitlements. The emergence of political figureheads is not too far off.

What will happen then is a battle for hearts and minds. The economic reality that the west faces (largely as a consequence of feminism once you connect the dots) will be a huge factor in helping the underdogs who emerge to champion the end of egregious female entitlement fight the entrenched feminized (and feminist) men who currently hold political power. Whether this fight is won or lost remains to be seen; if its lost, we can kiss western civilisation goodbye whilst if its won its not clear whether the damage inflicted to date will prove to be terminal in any case.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0
JustAnotherAnon September 6, 2010 at 17:36

Rob:

[i]“Movements” are herd-like actions, and men are not herd-like, they are individualistic. Thus, even the word “movement” in the sense we keep hoping for is a fantasy, because it is antithetical to the male spirit. [/i]

Wrong. Men (and women) are extremely ‘herd-like’. Society, as a whole, is ‘herd like’. Even ‘leaders’ as disgusting as Stalin or Hitler had many followers (of both sexes) which proves this point at its most fundamental level. Various activist groups like PETA, other animal rights groups, LGBT groups, environmental groups etc also consist of both sexes who actively take a stand for what they believe in. So to claim that men are somehow exempt from conforming to a given group is absurd.

Social circles thrive on ‘herd-like’, conformist behaviour and this has been drilled into the consciousness of society en masse.

You might want to read some of Freud’s Crowd Psychology or Jung’s Collective Unconscious or any other numerous pieces that explain just how normalized it is to be, for want of a better term, a ‘sheep’.

Your example of ‘soldiers being trained NOT to be individualistic’ is totally wrong btw. When a man (new recruit) goes into new territory (the military in this case) he has to conform to a NEW ‘society’ with NEW rules and structures. He WAS NOT a ‘free spirit’ before: he was already socially conditioned from his previous society, and now must conform to a new one.

People are sheeple and any sheep that enters a new herd simply needs re-programming to conform to THAT particular societal structure.

[quote]The Men’s Rights Movement exists. But it exists as its own entity. It will never have leaders, nor will it ever have “solidarity” like “the sisterhood” – because men’s nature is to stab other men in the back in order to climb over them. [/quote]

There is no sisterhood. Feminism only took off because it offered big rewards for totalitarian governments. In fact, if it wasn’t in the state’s interest to promote feminism, it would never have gained so much influence. Btw, notice how women have a tendency back-stab and bitch about each other to compete for male attention, and you’ll see there is no sisterhood. In fact, this very trait comes up time and again on the many reality shows broadcast this past decade or so and is easily observable in daily life.

Anyway, after reading this through, I’m 100% convinced that you, Rob, have some sort of obsession was Zed/AngryHarry and it appears unhealthy. TFH is clearly in the right on this, and his arguments have been consistent throughout this ‘debate’. There isn’t really any ‘movement’ but there is a proto-movement for sure. You should put aside your (inflated) ego for a second and stop being so defensive when you are in the wrong (which you are most certainly in this thread).

That is all.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 6
Charles Martel September 7, 2010 at 00:16

@Gunn

As to the idea of an MRM movement, I don’t see this as some kind of unionised construction of men that strike and picket and operate in the traditional sense. My suspicion is that the MRM is something that requires critical mass in terms of men who simply ‘get it’ and change their behaviour accordingly.

Your comment above is brilliant in total. The MRM can only emerge as a political force when enough individual men change their behavior that in aggregate this is felt at a national level.

It’s possible to take an analytical approach to this process. For example, the marriage rate is declining at an accelerating rate. It should be possible to define the S-curve for penetration of the marriage strike meme. (Ideas spread in populations in the same way that consumer products achieve market penetration, slowly at first, then at an accelerating rate, then slowing again as saturation is approached). I’d like to find a repeated attitudinal survey to marriage of college age men. This data could define the marriage strike S-curve and tell us when feminism will fail.

Nevertheless, there’s not much reason to be optimistic for the future of Western civilization. In his brilliant book, March of the Titans, Arthur Kemp traces the rise and fall of white civilizations over 7,000 years (aside – did you know King Tutankhamun was very likely white Northern European?). The common factors in the collapse of all the great white civilizations are (1) collapsing birth rate in the core population, (2) ethnic dilution.

The Huns are coming and they are pissed (thanks Anon 68!)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
TFH September 7, 2010 at 01:13

Charles Martel,

It should be possible to define the S-curve for penetration of the marriage strike meme.

I say that 20% of eligible men not marrying is the breaking point. There is something about 5 women competing for 4 men that causes the stress level of the women to skyrocket.

I believe we are very close to that S-curve level.

when enough individual men change their behavior that in aggregate this is felt at a national level.

That is why Game is such a crucial component of any attempt to rebalance power between the sexes and restore Men’s dignity and civil rights. The practice of Game itself is a power transfer. Even if it is just a 20-year-old college kid who has no inkling about judicial misandry or the Bradley Amendment, his action is causing an airleak in female power, and is benefiting the 40-year-old man inflicted with divorce and a false ‘deadbeat dad’ label, because bit by bit, power shifted.

The fast growth of Game also aids in this power rebalancing.

I am seeing more and more that men are dividing into two camps : Men who ‘get it’ to varying degrees, and whiteknights/manginas who are doubling down in desperation. Men who were quasi-pedestalizing neutrals are vanishing as they pick one of the two camps.

This bifurcation will become more visible, but is itself a sign of progress.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1
Harrytoo September 7, 2010 at 01:37

Further to TFH’s post. Those young men that are finding getting laid a little tricky because they’re seen as ‘commitment phobes’. Remember, there are countless 30-50 year old divorced women out there gagging for it and looking for a new wallet to call their very own. Remember most can still get pregnant so be careful, these ‘angels’ will trap you faster than the young ones. Seen it many times.

http://www.youtube.com/user/1menaregood1#p/a/u/0/Va-YTf5Caj8

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
tom47 September 7, 2010 at 18:00

If there were a MRM then all of us would be able to call on it for help when we needed it.
When HR is screwing with us, or judges are screwing with us, or anyone is screwing with us, we could call on a network of lawyers , protesters and activitists. We could influence politicians, corperations and the like. We have the numbers. Just an e mail barrage to a CEO and a threat of legal action would work.
But there is no REAL MRM. Most of what you guys advocate is just Passive Aggression. “I’ll sit in a corner and eat worms” . ” I won’t get married, that’ll show them”. It’s just whining.
TFH is right and the truth hurts.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3
tom47 September 7, 2010 at 18:39

Ok, here’s what we do.
Never marry or have children.
Live alone till we die.
Wait for Western Civilzation to collapse and hope that they starve to death before we do.
Kept talking about how we’re better than they are and all the great things we’re done.
And just to make sure we scare away any normal people out there that might want to join with us:
Kept talking about conspiracies.
Use as many “bitch, c**t, slut, whore” remarks as you can.
Talk about minorities as the enemy.
Attack any woman who dares to show her face here.
And throw in an occasional Waffen SS video for good measure.

That should work!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4
anondude September 7, 2010 at 23:39

I have to agree, the MRM is like a consciousness. Many men are starting to become part of it and yet have no idea it exists. The manosphere is the part of the MRM consciousness that is self aware.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
Fidelbogen September 8, 2010 at 16:50

“Roosh’s critiques of MRAs have been quite harsh (far more than mine), and I suspect Rob’s tactic is a result of blocking Roosh out of his mind.”

Would that be Roosh the Douche you are referring to?

I am aware of his so-called “critiques” of the MRAs, which amount to nothing better than “you’re a loser who can’t get laid, that’s your problem!”

It’s mighty hard to take anybody seriously who preaches that kind of garbage.

With that attitude, Roosh the Douche is no better than a feminist himself, and based on what I’ve seen I don’t think he honestly gives a crap about either the men’s movement or about men in general (other than himself). In fact, I can’t truly see that R. the D. gives a crap about anything but the Almighty Pussy — although I am open to correction if mistaken.

To sum up, the honored title of “brotherman” does not apply to that fellow. Words such as “deep”, or “thoughtful” or “spiritual” likewise do not apply. . .

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2
Michael C. Scott September 9, 2010 at 12:48

In 1998 I was accused of “stalking” an ex-girlfriend in California from nine years before. She thought I was living in Colorado at the time, which makes the stalking accusation very strange, but the fact that I had -unknown to her – moved to Sydney, Australia for grad school at UNSW there the year before makes the accusation downright surreal; I was not merely 1000 miles away, but closer to 8000 miles distant (should I have gone to Perth? That would have added an additional 3000 miles). She called the Santa Cruz city police and was told that they had no jurisdiction over either Colorado or Australia, whereupon she sued police chief Jan Teller, wanting damages for something she called “Total Incurable Shock Syndrome”. Saner heads prevailed in court and Teller won the case, but my ex- never faced any punishment, financial or otherwise for her orgy of narcissim. My point is that lying, manipulative lunatics are basically given a free pass, even when their mental illness is abundantly obvious.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
rob September 11, 2010 at 18:21

And still, the benefits of “renaming” the MRM as a “proto-movement” are…

Well, they are:

1).

2).

3).

4). The Fifth Horseman elevated his mediocre status – by cutting others away.

Gee.

Carry on, Proto-Men’s Right’s Warriors!

You are accomplishing Proto-Good Things!

You are a Proto-Good Person!

I feel “proto-good” about this whole shemauzle!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
rob September 11, 2010 at 19:16

Not only that, but just THINK what a “proto-Alpha” you will come across letting women know of your views about the “proto-movement” wherin your hero is the “proto-leader ‘The Fifth Horseman’” who also says every bit of knowledge he has is “proto-knowledge” because it comes from “proto-activists” who only “proto-motivate” with “proto-encouragement.”

For Christ’s Sakes.

We are all sunk, as the plebes choose a “proto” leader who can’t find his asshole with two hands and a flashlight.

Good Job, Proto-MRM!

You especially, Proto-Horseman!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
JustAnotherAnon September 12, 2010 at 06:52

It took him a few days to respond (I’m guessing he tried to slip his comments through thinking no one would bother reading as this is an old article now) but as predicted, Rob has gone on one of his hissy fits, lacking any real logic whatsoever.

Read my earler post Rob, and see if you can actually refute what I stated. You won’t be able to of course, hence this immature rambling of yours spreading 2 posts.

You mention a ‘fith horseman’ yet where did he post in this thread?

Please keep on track.

That is all.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
TFH September 12, 2010 at 22:59

Heh. Look at Rob. He must think I am exceptionally powerful if I have managed to :

1) Drive the most decorated MRA away from The Spearhead, without even seeking to do so.

2) Set the whole supposed Men’s Rights Movement backwards by using the word ‘proto’.

Wow, he really thinks I am powerful. I had no idea…

____________________________________________

Rob,

Part of your confusion is that you are confusing ‘proto’ with ‘pseudo’. Proto means early, pseudo means fake. I never said ‘pseudo’, but as per the quote below, you have to two mixed up :

“proto-MRA’s” (fake Activists) in a “proto-movement” (fake movement)

Reading comprehension, Rob, reading comprehension.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
rob September 13, 2010 at 19:04

“Proto” means less than “real,” or do I have to school you in English 101?

In the future, if you wish to “confide” in me your “real purpose/meaning”, might I suggest you don’t blatantly criticize me boldly before you whisper your confidences in my ear?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Rob September 13, 2010 at 19:12

Rob has gone on one of his hissy fits, lacking any real logic whatsoever.

Read my earler post Rob, and see if you can actually refute what I stated. You won’t be able to of course, hence this immature rambling of yours spreading 2 posts.

Ah yes, it is one of my ramblings, that has set me off on a hissy fit! Not an actual real point that has significance! And gee, Fifth rambles about about things other than the “misandry bubble” and the “proto-mrm”?

I’d say my ramblings are a bit more useful, thanks very much.

I didn’t refute what you said because you are a fool and a blatant jackass.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
http://no-maam.blogspot.com/ September 13, 2010 at 20:33

Why don’t you request AH to weigh in on this issue himself, Fifth?

Here is his e-mail:

ANGRY HARRY You are so confident about your bullshittery, what else have you got to lose?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
JustAnotherAnon September 14, 2010 at 03:49

TFH, my bad in not realizing that it stands for ‘the fith horseman’.

Rob, are you completely without common sense? ‘Proto’ does NOT mean ‘fake’, it means ‘early’.

Many references cite this: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=proto or http://zainar.com/glossary.html (scroll down the page) or http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proto

And Rob, you ARE going on somewhat of an irrational tirade in this thread, and haven’t formed a coherent, rational argument, unlike others here.

That is all.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Old Ranger September 18, 2010 at 22:30

Anonymous age 68 September 5, 2010 at 08:24
made some good points about men getting out of marriage. the problem is wymin are doing turkey baster babies and LaBamba wants to pay for them. That means you and me.if you were doped up in highschool there was required reading “1984″, not husbands and wives but cretches for raising babies. So you don’t have to have a Christian world view to be freeked out about where this shit is going.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Clay November 28, 2013 at 16:16

Two million a year? Wow….that’s scary. That means that in your lifetime there is a strong probability that you or someone that is close to you, has the chance of being brought up on fraudulent violent charges.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Clay November 28, 2013 at 16:29

The bad part is that Domestic Violence Laws give women a free reign in their tyranny. They can hit you, punch you, spit on you…whatever they want, and if you defend yourself you will be thrown in prison. In a just system the law applies equally to all. Cicero and other philosopher’s figured this out long ago. When one group of people has a law that applies to them, but in turn that law doesn’t apply to another group, then that other group will tend to oppress the unprotected group. No wonder domestic violence towards men is on the rise. And men are becoming wimps. They aren’t really wimps, however, rather they are terrified of being thrown in a rape room called a prison.
The states that reject these laws will thrive, the states that embrace them, such as California, will die in poverty, as men flee those states for fear of being raped in rape rooms called prisons. Did I say that already? It can’t be said enough. Be Wise. Be Fearful. Be Harmless if you can.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

Leave a Comment

{ 2 trackbacks }

Previous post:

Next post: