A recent Newsweek article reports that restaurant chain The Cheesecake Factory settled a sexual harassment claim in November. This would hardly be news, except for the fact that both of the alleged victims and the alleged abusers were male.
As I skimmed the article, I prepared to dust off a link to my favorite essay on homo/hetero male relations, “Why I Treat Straight Men Like Married Women.†I’ve seen a lot of homos actually harass straight guys in the workplace—especially in restaurants and bars and in retail, where the two groups are most likely to…brush against each other. The lass-lover usually has the choice of either getting fired for clobbering the butt pirate, or simply shrugging it off. In especially PC joints, he also runs the risk of being considered a “homophobe†if he gets miffed.
But, at least according to the information given, there was no homo/hetero dynamic in this suit. All of the parties involved, we’re told, were heterosexual.
Huh.
I dug around, but couldn’t find many specifics. And specifics would be useful here, because depending on who was being harassed and who was doing the harassing, there could be a number of different male-male conflicts involved. I’ll throw out a few possibilities, and would welcome more information.
Routine Male Socialization
Men harass each other. It’s what they do. They mock each other, goof around, call each other names, enjoy crude humor, test each other and push each other around. The guys who don’t cry about it—or better, give as good as they get—end up being included in the social group. The guys who don’t know how to handle it are harassed and pushed out of the group. They have rejected The Form; they’re Omegas.
Also, when men share close quarters, they sometimes play a game I call “homo gross out.â€
There’s something innately comedic to most men about two men having sex, so in addition to testing your pal’s boundaries and making light of male-to-male physical proximity, the real point of it is to get a laugh.
On one of the first days I was packed into a truck beside a pal of mine, he put his hand on my knee…just to see if I’d say something. He thinks it’s hilarious. And it is. The look on his face when he does it cracks me up.
Then there’s the sneak attack nipple tweak, and the occasional dry hump. A familiar and much discussed variation is the famous football ass pat. The majority of men who do this stuff are completely straight; they’re not repressed homos looking for an acceptable outlet for their forbidden desires. There’s rarely anything to it.
Women and omegas rarely understand this. Some guys of a reserved sort are uncomfortable with almost all physical expressions of fraternity between men, and they demand a little more personal space. They don’t find this kind of goofing around funny, either. But they usually handle it and set their boundaries in their own way.
This kind of crude male socializing is one of the problems I foresee with open homosexuality in the military. Our society is going to have to be honest about certain aspects of male fraternization and be careful that the mixed messages men send when they’re goofing around aren’t regarded, in one way or the other, as “actionable.†And the experts (see below) aren’t properly equipped to really understand or be honest about male behavior. Not by a long shot.
Mixed messages could be the case here. Or routine fraternization could have escalated into “hazing the outcastâ€â€¦which can admittedly get out of hand.
Class or Race Issues
It was difficult to tell from the information provided, but I have to wonder if there weren’t some class or race issues involved as well. It’s Arizona, in the kitchen of a chain restaurant. In the American southwest, restaurant kitchens tend to be dominated by Hispanics—good and bad alike. Kitchen jobs also tend to be places where ex-cons find employment after prison. I can imagine a situation where a bunch of suburban (post culinary school?) crackers with last names like “Fitzpatrick,†end up being bullied. Prison or ghetto humor could be a bit much for a guy from the other side of the tracks. There could have been a real effort to “drive out” the unwanted outsider through bullying.
When you’re being bullied, a good revenge tactic would be to imply that your bullies are homos. In court. It’s also a great way to extort money from a former employer.
However it came down, I have trouble feeling bad for the “victim†unless he was truly humiliated in some tremendously lurid way or full-on butt-raped in cold storage.
But if you can’t handle a little name calling and crude horseplay, you deserve to be ostracized. You’re part of the problem.
Playing into the whole litigious victim culture is in most cases dishonorable, and at the very least, distasteful and unmanly. If you don’t like the way the men around you are treating you, you settle it with them like a man or you decide they are assholes and you get out. If your co-workers are physically assaulting you or making legitimate threats, fine. Otherwise, get over it and stop feeding a phenomenon that eats manhood and freedom.
A Feminist Phenomenon?
A final note that struck me about the article was that all of the so-called experts on male-to-male sexual harassment were women. And as women who specialize in sexual harassment, they’re pretty clearly projecting their own ideology and experiences onto a scenario in which a variety of different dynamics could be at work. The female reporter repeated the catch-all feminist, Marxist “truth†that, “sexual harassment of both genders has more to do with issues of control and abuses of power for the purpose of humiliation than with sexual attraction.â€
But, for cultural Marxists, isn’t everything about power imbalances between the oppressors and the oppressed?
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{ 79 comments… read them below or add one }
this phenom is a result of men’s hetero attraction to females being demonized in the media and culture so they target other men to get their sexual thrills met. I’ve seen it in prison too, where men are denied the opportunity to stick their dick into something warm and soft belonging to females, they substitute it with something warm and soft belonging to males.
We also saw this in Abu Ghraib and the Afghanistan sex scandel at army bases where all the men were partying naked or in costume with nary a woman to be seen.
Men are made to feel like rapists if they sexualize a woman, so they sexualize other men instead which proves men are not born gay, they see it as a viable option in misandric societies.
Jack:
Interesting post.
When I played sports in junior high and high school guys did all sorts of crude things. Performing an “oil change” was one; one guy tries to insert his finger in another guy’s ass. “Tea bagging” is common, especially among football jocks. These are all crude forms of entertainment.
As guys get older their antics become less sexual, although one of my favorite things to do at the restaurant where I work is to put an uncooked link of sausage in other people’s serving apron. When you watch them reach in and grab a dick-shaped food object the fun never stops.
But as jobs become more professional and men grow up their proving grounds and forms of harassment are still present. But these aren’t necessarily bad things. It’s a sorting out process; the guys who have the most to offer and desire to offer it are rewarded in the long run. As you mentioned, the guys who can’t cut it weed themselves out and quit. Well at least that’s what they used to do; now they hire lawyers or get on the phone to HR departments.
Btw, side note Jack. I ran across your book at my local Barnes and Noble. One of the employees had it in their “Suggested Reading” section. I plan on picking up a copy next time I’m there.
I’m going to suggest, as I mosey along, that the increasing acceptance of homosexuality is going to yield much less welcome of “crude” behavior. I’m sorry, but when it arrives at the point that people can’t be friends without a suspicion of a sexual relationship between them–indeed, it begins to become expected–people will be much less willing to accept crude jokes or horseplay.
Thank whom you will for that.
Feminists: the new puritans.
Tangential to this, in a way, but an illustration of the lockstep mind which knows the victim scenario regardless of fact:
I was a new administrator of a gay-focussed nonprofit. One of the staff, a Black man some 15 years my junior, put the full court press on me for a sexual and emotional relationship. I gave all the right reasons for refusing, resisted, etc. but he was both attractive and relentless. We wound up becoming partners for almost nine years and have been close friends for almost 20 now. I did not last long at the job, though.
Once word got out of what was going on –and I fully admit that it was unwise of me, at best, but the truth is that we fell in love with each other– the universal assumption was that the older white male manager had used his overwhelming race/class/age power to harass and manipulate this poor young African-American youth of 30 (!) into submitting to his objectifying and manipulative sexual grip. People stopped him on the street and asked if they could help him and told him that he didn’t have to endure what was happening to him.
My ex and I have laughed about that for many years. Anyone who knows him knows that you will hardly find a stronger personality in the state. He is not someone you cross or try to move, either physically or emotionally.
It was me who was really the “victim” (although there were none in this case).
I am not pleading for anything. We did what we did. But the need for someone to be a victim, and the assumption that the victim can always be known beforehand by their age/sex/race markers, etc. is one of the many deleterious and inhuman results of feminism. And feminism, as Mr Donovan might tell you if you ask
–sorry for the emoticon, sir– is one of the things that has ruined homosexuals into becoming gays.
Restaurant jobs aren’t so hard to come by that I would put up with that shit. Homo or hetero, anyone who harasses me gets a punch in the snoot.
Joking around, even non-sexually, is something that is essential to the workplace for men, I believe – and especially for those young guys who are entering the workforce and get “trained” by older co-workers around them. And Jack is right, how the “victim” reacts is what earns or loses him respect.
For example, when I started working as the shop-boy in a mechanic shop, you are the first guy that gets grabbed onto to do the pumping the brake pedal to bleed the brakes, or to hold this or that. Well, it didn’t take long until I was asked to hold the wires from the coil as the mechanic tried to see if the engine would turn over… zzzzzzzzt! Lol! The whole shop was rolling on the ground laughing at me – didn’t matter one bit to them that my dad owned the place. “Shoulda been smarter than the coil!” I think every shop-boy that ever worked there got that same initiation.
I worked a couple of summers as a beekeeper as well, while I was doing some continued education as an adult, about 10 years ago, I guess.
Anyway, this one family that I knew, had a 15 year old boy that needed a summer job, so I asked my boss…
We did the usual things to him, like take a bee in our fingers before we got in the truck, and put your arm around him and make sure he got a dinger of a stinger in the soft part of his neck.
But the best thing we did to him was one day we had to drive quite a ways to a yard of bees that we kept, and I managed to hide his bee-veil on him before we got there. When we got there, he was looking through the truck, and looking, and looking… and we were like “Well, we’re not driving all the way back to the shop just for your damn bee-veil.”
So, we “fixed him up” instead, with a burlap sack that we pulled over his head, and attached with some bailing twine. After a while, we told him it was so irritating to talk to this potato sack and not be able to a see a face, so I pulled a Jiffy Marker out of the glove box and drew a couple of eyes, a nose, and a mouth on him. Lol! We let him work like that for an hour, before my boss took a picture of him, and then we told him where there might be a “spare” veil in the truck. Lol! “You fuckers!” he said. But he laughed pretty hard at himself for the rest of the day. His mom had that picture of him working with a sack on his head, up on the fridge for ages.
But, he was a good shit, that kid – one of his first “real jobs” working with the men. And we treated him like one too. After working all day in the summer heat, pulling in heavy boxes of honey while wearing a friggin’ monkey suit, the beer went down pretty good, and he was given a few beers to drink like a man because he worked like a man. We treated him like one of us completely, and he enjoyed coming to work.
His mom told me that he often says that was one of the best summers of his life, and that before he came to work for us, they were quite worried about how well he would turn out as a worker, because he didn’t do well in school and was getting in quite a bit of trouble at times.
Men have their own ways of doing things, and I hope that women don’t invade the workspace with so much touchy-feelie crap, that this important element of growing into a man, gets removed from the workplace.
This rang a bell, and I looked it up. 8-10 guys jumped him in the produce cooler and “dry raped” him while yelling in spanish and whispering in his ears.
General manager, when told, supposedly chuckled. Here are a couple links with more details:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/01/20081201cr-cheesecake1128copy-CP.html
http://www.towleroad.com/2008/12/homoerotic-hazi.html
Already happened, fedrz.
The tales I could tell you about my old job … but unfortunately, I don’t have time right now.
I’ve seen a lot of guys “playing around” in the way that you mentioned, but I’ve always believed they’re latent homos, and the ones who aren’t are kidding themselves into believing the other guy isn’t.
If you don’t have two x chromosomes and you put your hands on me without my permission you are getting knocked out. I don’t even hug my male family members.
There are other ways to bond with your male friends and family than goosing each other on the ass and grabbing each other’s balls. That shit is pretty disgusting, if you ask me.
Jeff -
Then the majority of jocks are latent homosexuals.
I don’t buy it. It’s too widespread of a phenomenon for that. If that’s the case, you’d better up the naturally occurring percentage of homosexual men from 2-5% to about 35-50%.
Chuck –
Heh, cool. Get it while you can. Copies from the first run are getting scarce. Amazon’s been sold out for a month and the reprint is still kind of up in the air.
Mrs. Pilgrim –
That’s what I meant with my comment about the military. And it really has put a weird spin on male friendship since homosexuality became a “discussed” phenomenon…probably just after (or just before) WWII. When homosexuality is a “known unknown,” men are hyper-conscious of sending the wrong signals, so they shut down physically. That, pioneer suspicion and residual English stuffiness probably all contributed to the distant 1950s dad stereotype.
Men don’t want other men to get the wrong idea and think they’re something they’re not. This self-consciousness is definitely (at least in part) a consequence of the acceptance of homosexuality.
Kind of sad, really. Men aren’t as touchy feely as women by nature. I don’t want to see men hanging all over each other, and if I don’t know you, no, I don’t want to give you a hug.
But if you feel like you have to put up a 2 foot safety zone between yourself and your best friend to make sure no one thinks you’re banging each other…well, that’s kind of sad.
fedrz –
Great story.
newsweek is the worst
lynch –
Well, looks like I might have been right on a few counts.
Hispanics, it should be noted, are usually less uptight about personal space than white guys…so if he started sending out hyper-sensitive signals he probably made himself a target. The behavior is still a little over the top, and a good male manager might have stepped in.
Of course, the correct response was probably for him to say “Aye, papi” and act like he enjoyed it until everyone started laughing or got totally grossed out…
Stuff so close to this happens at my work while we are all laughing our asses off that it’s hard for me to be appalled without seeing a video of how it went down.
A thought just crossed my mind.
I wonder if this kind of “homo gross-out” behavior originates in families with jockish brothers, close in age, who grew up sharing a bedroom.
I grew up with sisters and a lot of my own personal space, so that kind of thing really made me uncomfortable until I was older and really understood it.
But if you grew up with a brother around and in your personal space all of the time, I could see how that kind of humor could evolve pretty easily. The handful of guys I know who do this stuff seem to have close brothers. I could also see how that behavior would seem normal to them and they would socialize their locker room buddies in the same way. Might explain a lot, actually.
One of my favourite ‘hazes’ was an apprentice who was sent to buy a tin of ‘rainbow paint’. They rang the paint shop and ordered the actual colour they needed which was then supplied to the noob. When he got back to the site the tin was opened and the kid was berrated for ‘shaking up the damn rainbow paint, its fecking brown now!!!’
The good thing about these types of jokes is that they are a non authoritarian way to force a newbie to learn the basics of his new job. It teaches them that they are allowed to challenge their superiors. It also gets them to snap out of expecting to be spoonfed everything after they leave school. It forces them to think and weeds out the ones who aren’t smart enough.
“They have rejected The Form; they’re Omegas.”
Ahahaha.
PUAs really are just a bunch of pathetic losers trying to make themselves feel better by constructing a fantastical alternate universe where they are the kings of the world (alpha) and everyone else is garbarge (beta/omega). It’s not even based on anything, it’s just arbitrary nonsense.
“Then there’s the sneak attack nipple tweak, and the occasional dry hump. A familiar and much discussed variation is the famous football ass pat. The majority of men who do this stuff are completely straight; they’re not repressed homos looking for an acceptable outlet for their forbidden desires. There’s rarely anything to it.”
I’m facepalming so hard right now. Men who are uncomfortable with homoerotic physical contact are omega faggots, but because you enjoy the occasional nipple tweak, dry hump and pat on the ass, you’re straight as an arrow? Sure, why not!
Are you possibly the author of this article?
“Playing into the whole litigious victim culture is in most cases dishonorable, and at the very least, distasteful and unmanly.”
Right, because you’re just an expert on all things manly.
Chuck “When I played sports in junior high and high school guys did all sorts of crude things. Performing an “oil change†was one; one guy tries to insert his finger in another guy’s ass. “Tea bagging†is common, especially among football jocks. These are all crude forms of entertainment.”
Indeed. How could there possibly be anything gay about sticking your finger up a another man’s ass and dangling your balls in front of his face?
lynch “This rang a bell, and I looked it up. 8-10 guys jumped him in the produce cooler and “dry raped†him while yelling in spanish and whispering in his ears.”
Man, there’s nothing gay about that. It’s just manly man stuff, completely straight. It’s only gay if you’re not a manly alpha like Jack Donovan.
Jack Donovan “Of course, the correct response was probably for him to say “Aye, papi†and act like he enjoyed it until everyone started laughing or got totally grossed out… Stuff so close to this happens at my work while we are all laughing our asses off that it’s hard for me to be appalled without seeing a video of how it went down.”
So not only are you a raging faggot (in the closet), but you also approve of sexual assault. Awesome.
@ null
You are a moron. Jack *is* Gay.
“You are a moron. Jack *is* Gay.”
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m telling you. If you’re saying that he is openly gay, then I find that a little hard to believe, because all this talk about how male-on-male sexual harrassment and assault isn’t the least bit gay is exactly what someone stuck in the closet would say (not that it isn’t absolutely retarded even when said by an openly gay man).
But what’s really troubling is his attitude that male-on-male sexual harrassment and assault is perfectly a-okay. And it’s entirely consistent with the way this site has downplayed and justified rape in the past (along with the rest of the MRA/PUA community).
@null
Keep digging. LOL.
OK wait, everyone got on Arpagus’s case for saying that it’s impossible for females to rape males because his logic is that a female’s sex is a highly valued and sought after resource that she BESTOWS upon a male. But here, when a man was bounced and dry humped by 8-10 OTHER MEN, that’s considered good to go???
So females should be burned at the stake for bouncing on males but when guys do it to other guys, that’s ok???????
I’m sure you’ll all correct me if my interpretation is wrong.
“But if you feel like you have to put up a 2 foot safety zone between yourself and your best friend to make sure no one thinks you’re banging each other…well, that’s kind of sad.”
I don’t give a fuck what other people think, I’m just not into male-on-male physical contact. If I have to touch another person, I prefer them to be soft, curvy, and smelling of perfume rather than hairy, sweaty, and smelling like B.O.
I don’t like physical contact with anyone much, so I limit my physical contact to people I’m fucking or people I’m administering a beating to.
Honestly, I buy the whole deal that manly berating is a measure of control… It’s a way of testing a newcomer, making sure that he fits in with the group, and is willing to accept and conform to it. That it often includes homosexual overtones is incidental, since a lot of crap like this isn’t sexual at all, just offsetting. It’s a way of saying to an outsider, “This is how this group works. You’re going to have to change your expectations, boundaries and behaviors to meet those of our group. ”
I’m a lifelong non-conformist, and it has caused me much grief. Whenever someone wants me to do something like this, I just find it ridiculous and refuse to participate… usually earning the ire of “the boys” in the process. I’m just not someone who can be pushed outside my normal limits easily. If I try to play along, like normal people, I just end up feeling stupid… Their approval always feels hollow to me.
And I do believe that that homo-horseplay does have a gay element to it, even if it’s latent. I think that almost all people are bisexual to some degree, even if they don’t acknowledge it, of if the attraction is so minuscule that they’d scarcely ever be aware of it. It’s probably more complicated than you’d think, wiring a brain to respond only to certain sexual stimuli, and to make sure that all responses to sexual stimuli programmed in were strictly sex-linked.
At any rate, this doesn’t mean that everyone should suddenly become bi or anything… I just think it’s wrong to make people feel so weird about the possibility of being gay that they start to devote a large chunk of time preoccupied with proving they’re not, and all the anxiety that entails. Ideally, it’d be like, “Hmm… I have 1% attraction to the same sex… Not enough to ever want to do one or anything. OK! Now I get on with my life!”
But people are assholes and like to make each other miserable, so this will never happen.
Anyway, to respond to the main thrust of the article, (hot) (remind me to kill myself later for making that joke) I don’t think that this is an attack on “men being men”. Maybe it is an over-reaction, but I’ve had a lot of cases in my past where this kind of berating crossed into full-on sexual harassment, with people that I wanted nothing to do with, and showed them at every opportunity.
I don’t know, it’s just really hard to draw the line between this kind of playing around, and full on bullying, and the people who would engage in either are likely the same. It just pisses me off when someone harasses someone, just because they have some advantage, and they can get away with it. It pisses me off worse when the asshole is defended because he’s just “being one of the boys” or something.
I could pick apart your argument from the feminist perspective, point out the hypocrisy of damning female behaviors while extolling these (annoying) male behaviors. But I won’t, because I don’t feel that strongly about it. You’re telling the truth as you see it (mostly), revealing how you filter information, and I respect that.
I’m may sound like a male-hating feminist in this post, but I’m not. Because guess who was doing the defending, every. single. time. that. happened. (RAGE)
The real problem with humanity isn’t men or women. It’s people who give in to their baser instincts and drives without empathy or regard for others, and who justify their actions in flippant and offhand ways… People who deny being animals even as they act like the worst of them.
Um….gay male sexual harassment on straight males has been around now for about 25 years….before then, in Australia at least, to admit one was ‘gay’ was offering an open invitation to get the crap beaten out of you. In my town gay men were bashed in the 70s. It is as simple as that. They had to stay in the closet. And I don’t see a whole lot of ‘benefit’ to the wider society for them being out of the closet.
In the 90s I was doing a lot of Landmark classes and I was not comfortable around gay men. As far as I saw it there was something ‘fundamentally wrong’ with them if they liked kissing and taking it up the arse from another man. These guys in the class would consistently harass any straight guy who was a bit gay-phobic like me. It was never serious and it was taken more in jest than anything. It was not a work place and I had every choice to be there. If I wanted I could have ended any such skylarking with the threat of violence. Then one day, one of the guys confessed he was bi. He was a real macho guy and it got me intrigued because he deinitely preferred women and only went ‘gay’ when he could not land a woman for the night.
After much talking with gay guys I got over my whole idea that there was something ‘wrong’ with them. They just wanted love and affection like I did and found it with men. Often frequently finding it with women too.
“On one of the first days I was packed into a truck beside a pal of mine, he put his hand on my knee….just to see if I’d say something. He thinks it’s hilarious. And it is. The look on his face when he does it cracks me up.”
I am reminded of a story Ian Chappel (Australian cricket captain in the 70s) tells of an incident in the 70s. He had a bet with Rodney Marsh (the wicket keeper) on the result of a game of golf to be played the next day. Marsh was the better golfer and Chappel wondered how me might get an edge. They happened to have to share a double the night before. So early in the evening chappel reached over and grabbed Marsh by the genitals. This, of course, shocked Rodney Marsh.
Marsh reportedly got no sleep all night while Chappel rested up for his game of golf. And as Chappel reports “The spririt and fighting character of Rodney Marsh can never be questioned, because on little or no sleep, he whipped my backside the next day on the golf course.”
“A final note that struck me about the article was that all of the so-called experts on male-to-male sexual harassment were women”
Women are not experts on anything. Just ignore them. They will go away.
Jeff, that’s your personal preference, and that’s fine.
But there’s not something wrong with everyone else because they aren’t like you. And most completely heterosexual men really aren’t, in my experience. They aren’t as touchy-feely as women, and all men have different boundaries, but 90% of the straight guys I know are comfortable with some kind of physical contact with other men–depending how well they know them.
Suigintou-
If you picked apart my argument from a feminist perspective, the only people who would applaud would be other feminists. Feminism is an ideology with its own set of “truths,” not a system for revealing truth.
Sexual harassment claims are a feminist phenomenon. Sexual harassment laws only exist because of feminists. Encouraging men to make sexual harassment claims against other men projects male-female politics onto male social behavior
Charles Martel -
Kinda proves what level of reading comprehension we’re dealing with here, doesn’t it?
“Sexual harassment claims are a feminist phenomenon. Sexual harassment laws only exist because of feminists. Encouraging men to make sexual harassment claims against other men projects male-female politics onto male social behavior”
And encouraging gay men to harass, molest, assault and rape other men is completely wrong and there is no possible excuse for it. I hope the next time you harass someone you get beaten to death.
If I trip in Brazil, and my cock falls into Florencia Maggi, is it harassment? I’d ask roush, but he’d hit me up for a contribution or keep looking at me with those eyes.
null,
You’ve already proved that you have no idea what you’re talking about, or even what you’re reading.
And if you behaved like this in person, instead of safely behind a keyboard and a cute online handle, you would have been beaten to death years ago.
Was only saying that for the sake of argument. Maybe saying I was arguing from a feminist perspective was a bad way to phrase it… I was basically taking into account how a feminist would see it, and pointing out the similarities. We hate the nature of the opposite sex, their more asinine behaviors that work to our detriment. Spearheaders have their own set of “truths” that most of them accept outright. The only difference is that their ideology, if implemented, would benefit civilization as a whole, and the individual happiness of the vast majority of people, rather than the lucky few who win the genetic lottery.
But I think you people are going overboard, and becoming less of a common-sense movement based in reality (no matter how horrible that reality is) and more of a reactionary, vitriolic anti-feminism.
I think they should be stop if they’re bothering me, and should be compelled to if they don’t when I ask. That’s just simple not-necessarily-sexual harassment, against which laws existed well before the feminist era. If they use sexual innuendo or goosing etc… to increase the annoyance of their harassment, that’s still what it is.
The kind of male social behavior which you’re describing only involves fully consenting parties. If someone objected, they’d probably stand to be derided or even rejected, and that’s OK. But if they continue it even after that person tries to distance themselves from them, it’s not right, even if it is male-nature.
Anyway, I’d agree that the idea of sexual harassment, at least in our society, is taken way overboard. The punishments are WAY too severe, and it takes next to nothing for an accusation to stick, especially when the victim is a woman.
Suigintou –
I don’t think Spearhead writers, let alone readers, share a common ideology, though the overlap between ideologies is what brings people here.
Feminism has been, and continues to be angry and vitriolic. Most “movements” are–because they are moving against something they no longer wish to tolerate. Hope for a kinder, gentler “movement” is fairly anti-human.
Jack Donovan “You’ve already proved that you have no idea what you’re talking about, or even what you’re reading.”
Standard MRA/PUA response when they’re nailed to the wall for some dumb shit they said.
“And if you behaved like this in person, instead of safely behind a keyboard and a cute online handle, you would have been beaten to death years ago.”
Hahahahahahaha. Right, because in the real world you only get beaten up if you’re against gay sexual harassment and assault. Because apparently in your version of reality heterosexuals are in the minority.
Also, accusing people of being behind a keyboard on the Internet is about the most dumbass shit ever.
null –
No. It has just been proven that you have no idea what you’re talking about and you just rattle off baseless, contrary objections to be a pain in the ass.
First you accused me of being a closet homosexual, when I’ve mentioned that I was homosexual outright in writing on this site many times, and I’ve written a book about homosexuality and masculinity, have appeared on TV and the radio discussing sexuality, and I’m interviewed in a documentary film regarding homosexuality and masculinity that was released on DVD this week.
In the article above, I linked to an essay that I wrote 2 years ago, which talked about the importance of respecting boundaries between homosexual and heterosexual men.
I am on public record and cataloged in libraries around the world saying these things, all in my legal name.
I have been “out of the closet” for something like 15 years. So you have no idea what you’re talking about when you say “that’s what a closeted gay man would say.”
You’re wrong.
I am an openly homosexual man who works in a blue collar environment with straight men who behave in the way described above. The fact that I am openly homosexual meant that it took longer for those guys to realize that I knew when they were just goofing around, and that I wouldn’t take things too far or turn them into something legitimately sexual. These guys are good friends, I’ve spent hours upon hours over several years talking to them–occasionally about this very subject–and none of them is a latent homosexual. None of them will ever engage in a real sex act with another man, and I don’t believe for a second that they so much as fantasize about it. All of them have behaved in a way that could be labeled male-to-male sexual harassment if you transcribed their words, described their actions, and re-told the story in a sensational way.
Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re wrong.
You’re regurgitating canned objections and cliches invented by women to discuss male social dynamics they don’t understand, because they are outsiders. This leads me to believe that you are also an outsider who has difficulty socializing with men who act like men.
You are also a pussy who is afraid to come out and write anything of substance that he has to stand by and defend.
You make yourself feel important by wasting time on other people’s web sites, offering a bunch of bitchy, half-assed comments on material it has just been proven that you barely even read.
Jack Donovan “First you accused me of being a closet homosexual, when I’ve mentioned that I was homosexual outright in writing on this site many times, and I’ve written a book about homosexuality and masculinity, have appeared on TV and the radio discussing sexuality, and I’m interviewed in a documentary film regarding homosexuality and masculinity that was released on DVD this week.”
Well excuse me for not obsessively keeping tabs on everybody’s sexual orientation. But the fact remains that to anyone who doesn’t know you’re gay you come across as someone who’s in the closet.
“Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re wong.”
You have blatantly justified and excused gay sexual harassment and assault. Stop denying it, you creep.
“You’re regurgitating canned objections and cliches invented by women to discuss male social dynamics they don’t understand, because they are outsiders.”
No, you’re just trying to make obviously gay behavior seem straight, and you want to normalize the sexual harassment of straight men.
“You are a pussy who is afraid to come out and write anything of substance that he has to stand by and defend.”
Haha. This is coming from someone who first defends sexual harassment but then starts backpedaling and denies everything.
null,
I have denied nothing, liar.
My words remain here and elsewhere. I’ve said exactly what I meant to say, in the way I intended to say it.
Alright, null, you went too far again, and you’re polluting the discussions.
Take a break.
You really need a time-out.
@null
“…Well excuse me for not obsessively keeping tabs on everybody’s sexual orientation.”
Or for not knowing anything at all about anything which you comment on.
“…to anyone who doesn’t know you’re gay you come across as someone who’s in the closet.”
Define your terms, please? Both of them.
And be careful … ‘cuz you’re very close to outing yourself as an Ignorant Stereotyping Bigot, as well as the complete douche which these guys are already so used to.
“…You have blatantly justified and excused gay sexual harassment and assault. ”
Gay Sexual Harassment and is not the same as Male-Only Horseplay.
Only a Humorless Mangina Twat or a Bonafide Feminist Cunt could confuse them.
If you’re not actually a woman, you might as well just hack it all off and tend a harem.
@JD
Yup. Null the magic eight ball.
I enjoy your writing much, btw. You’ve changed my perceptions in a positive way, if you know what I mean. Kudos.
Thank you, sir.
You’re regurgitating canned objections and cliches invented by women to discuss male social dynamics they don’t understand, because they are outsiders. This leads me to believe that you are also an outsider who has difficulty socializing with men who act like men.
You are also a pussy who is afraid to come out and write anything of substance that he has to stand by and defend.
You make yourself feel important by wasting time on other people’s web sites, offering a bunch of bitchy, half-assed comments on material it has just been proven that you barely even read.
Jack,
I think this article from one of the best bloggers ever, ‘T’ aka ‘Ricky Raw’, sums up the intra-psychological deadness of a punk like ‘Null-n-void’ aka ‘Dull’ -
http://therawness.com/my-european-trip-part-8-the-rearden-in-action/
Profound.
“But there’s not something wrong with everyone else because they aren’t like you.”
I don’t believe there is. I never said there was either. I’m also always completely upfront with the fact that touching me will get you hurt, so that there’s never an incident where someone gets punched accidentally,due to reflexes.
“And most completely heterosexual men really aren’t, in my experience.”
You’d know more about that than me. All I know about is my own personal preferences.
Re: null
Some closet doors have louvers…to peak thru…..both ways….
Jeff –
Fair enough. I think most men who are paying attention have a good gauge of what is going to go over with whom. Some are retarded and need to be “corrected.” However, I suspect that in the case of “harassment” above, the perpetrators weren’t too worried about physical reprisal from the “victim.”
I once worked for a guy who seemed to have funny nicknames for everyone in the office but me. I joked about this to a co-worker, and asked her why she thought I didn’t have a nickname. She said something like, “you don’t seem like the nickname type.”
Whatever that means, there are a lot of cues that people throw off–and if you’re a hands off guy, it’s probably obvious to most people.
I’m genuinely surprised to see how little support Null received for his positions in this case. He made a few very valid points, though I do think he overreacted and took it a little too personally.
For starters, it seems to me that the actions of many in this male horseplay situation, and the society that they tend to extend from (prisons, ghetto-like areas, etc) make it pretty clear where the social constructs are. It has been mentioned on The Spearhead before that the key to maintaining a civilization is to create mechanisms for monogamy in that beta males can safely mate with females and create families and produce wealth generally unimpeded by the “natural” order. Like J. Durden said in the opening comment of The Looking Glass post, “civilization is the triumph of reason over nature.”
Essentially what we have here is a group of males operating (generally) outside of any female contact, all-male sports teams and clubs and the like. What I see here is the self-recognized bachelor community of males that exists in an uncivilized society. The reason all the men are hanging out together and slapping asses is because they aren’t in the pride, as in the case of lions. Some other alpha is engaging all of the female activity, and this group of males engages in a mild form of mutual masturbation, distracting the fact that they aren’t accepted by females as alphas.
The omegas in the bunch are really just a sub-class of betas that betas create to feel better about themselves. Sure, omegas are bitches of the beta bachelor clan, but in the eyes of the alpha, all other males are weak.
It’s in the best interests of the alpha to keep an eye on the other males, in order to recognize potential challengers, so an alpha might even engage in some of this horseplay, but when push comes to shove and a beta pushes too hard, the alpha is going to respond in a much different way than either submitting, or retreating. Instead of playing along, or crying foul, he will probably just cock back and drill someone in the face.
Jack seems to be an alpha, with a cue there being the “you don’t seem like the nickname kind of type” response he got from a woman at his work. However, being homosexual, he’s quite fine engaging with the males in the beta group. He, as an alpha, demands submission from his choice in partner, as an alpha male demands submission from his women. The rest of you that are agreeing with Jack in this case? Keep working hard to maintain your beta status, so you only look like a bitch to the alphas, and not your peers.
Null is free to argue null’s points, but null’s got to drop the ad hominems. Gets old after a while, and it’s a violation of commenting policy.
“You have blatantly justified and excused gay sexual harassment and assault. Stop denying it, you creep.
-Null”
“Alright, null, you went too far again, and you’re polluting the discussions.
Take a break.
You really need a time-out.”
-Welmer
Null was on-point in what you (Welmer) quoted him as saying.
(**emphasis mine**)
Jack: “**he probably made himself a target**. The behavior is still **a little** over the top, and a good male manager **might** have stepped in.
Of course, **the correct response was probably for him to say “Aye, papi†and act like he enjoyed it** until everyone started laughing or got totally grossed out…”
Null’s comment that Jack’s post “blatantly justified and excused gay sexual harassment and assault” isn’t going too far at all. In addition, while I disagree with Null’s assertion that Jack’s ideas are indicative of a majority of the thought of Men’s Rights groups, it’s hardly ad hominem for him to think & say so. Definitely no more than those claiming that Null is female.
Null took his/her namecalling too far. That’s all. Arguing is perfectly fine. As for whether null is male or female, how can any of do anything but speculate at this point? All I can say is that null, despite claiming not to be a feminist or female, consistently takes feminist/female positions.
Also, if this site pisses null off so much, why doesn’t null avoid it? No contact = no conflict, right?
No conflict = no solutions.
null conflict = no solutions.
Null’s just personally offended by the site, which is why I think null is female. If null were in on the male feminist racket, then I’d accept that null may be male, but I’ve seen no indication of that.
In any event, calling the writers names in every other post is simply counterproductive.
OK, that’s enough about null. Time to move on to other things.
“OK, that’s enough about null. Time to move on to other things.”
Like how The Spearhead writer with the 2nd highest number of posts (next to you) actually defends sexual assault?
A gay man telling a straight man that he should just go along with being raped by a gang of Hispanics (of course all in good fun) and pretend to enjoy it or else he’s just not secure in his manliness…hm, anyone else see the problem here? Sorry Jack, but not all of his quantify our manliness on how much homoerotic sexual contact we can handle. I’ll leave that to alpha homosexuals like you.
Justus addresses quite well your argument that all of these teabagging jocks have to be straight just by the sheer large number of men who engage in said activities.
“Essentially what we have here is a group of males operating (generally) outside of any female contact, all-male sports teams and clubs and the like. What I see here is the self-recognized bachelor community of males that exists in an uncivilized society. The reason all the men are hanging out together and slapping asses is because they aren’t in the pride, as in the case of lions. Some other alpha is engaging all of the female activity, and this group of males engages in a mild form of mutual masturbation, distracting the fact that they aren’t accepted by females as alphas.” -Justus
The guy wasn’t actually raped. There is no evidence that he was, and no accusations of actual rape were even made.
As far as I can tell, he was teased and there was a physical element to it, and he didn’t like it. Real sexual assault is real sexual assault. If you want it to be a bad thing–which it is–then don’t over-apply it to situations that aren’t legitimately sexual assault. Hysterical language and the politics of “micro-aggression” only works against men–who can generally sort out their own bullshit without a shoulder, or an institution, to cry on.
If they had held him down against his will, or jammed something up his butt, or stripped him naked…then, yes, that’s sexual assault and it is wrong and should be punished. Totally unacceptable. I don’t know a man who would do that, nor would I ever condone it.
But “sexual harassment” is a far murkier topic, and it is an invention of feminists who have used it to extort money from employers and advance their own positions in society.
The whole “the writer is homosexual” angle is so weak.
Welmer’s met me, and somehow managed to escape without being “fondled.” I don’t get my rocks off via horseplay with straight men. I’m just being honest and saying that heterosexual male horseplay sometimes has a quasi-sexual component and this is a case of applying a PC feminist value system to normal male behavior.
The guy I know who instigates this where I work is an alpha. He called me this weekend to tell me about the hot stripper he banged. When he walks into a room, men step back and women throw themselves at him. He’s one of my best friends, I’ve spent hundreds of hours talking to him about intensely personal stuff over a period of years. And he isn’t a latent homosexual. He just isn’t. I’d know. Neither is the Mexican father of 5 who also laughs and plays along. Nicest guy you’d ever meet. Not a homo.
This whole argument is a nerd fantasy. The big jocks who made fun of nerd X must secretly be gay for each other, because that makes nerd X feel better about being shut out of their social group. End of story. I used to believe that stuff, too, until I stopped licking high school emotional wounds, grew up and started seeing the world as it is–not through the lens of my wishful cliches.
Most of the “experts” on the subject are also omegas with an axe to grind.
From the court document:
STATEMENT OF CLAIMS
…
(a) repeated sexual assaults by groups of male employees, who, on each
occasion, would grab one of the individuals named above or one of the class
members, and take turns grinding their genitals into the victim’s genitals in a
sexual manner, simulating sex, while making verbal remarks of a sexual nature;
(b) co-workers bumping into victims from behind in a sexual manner on
multiple occasions; and
(c) co-workers grabbing the genitals of one or more of the victims on
multiple occasions
So tell me: is this sexual assault, or just nerd fantasy?
All the “experts” were women? Then how could they be omegas with an axe to grind? Women don’t fall into the same roles of alpha, beta, and omega that men generally do. You claimed that the guy bragging about banging a stripper is alpha. If so, the biggest whores would be alphas, and I think that’s a poor distinction.
I completely agree. As I stated, heterosexual male horseplay has a lot to do with sexuality, in that it acts as a release for tensions for male groups separated from female contact. Alphas engage in this as a means to recognize potential challengers to their abilities. It points out which of the other men are betas vs outright omegas. Married Hispanic with kids is probably comfortable in his beta role as provider, and more power to him. He could even be a settled alpha just watching the game. I’m not claiming that this social posturing isn’t natural to men, I’m simply positing that a majority of men who embrace and glorify it are on the fast track to the top beta slot, but it takes more than that to be alpha.
This argument is a fantasy of another type, in that it assumes that people who value intelligence over physical control have no concept of social posturing. In high school, this makes sense. Most people don’t have income or fame, so the social key becomes physical prowess. Once school is out, social posturing is dominated by intellect, rather than physical ability. Belief that physical stature continues to be superior in future social occasions is a jock fantasy for those who cannot face a world where money and position start to outweigh chiseled abs and the ability to lift heavy things. Also, I never claimed that all men who engage in quasi-homosexual harassment were gay, I claimed that most were beta, with the exceptions I posted for alphas in the bunch.
“OK, that’s enough about null. Time to move on to other things.â€
Like how The Spearhead writer with the 2nd highest number of posts (next to you) actually defends sexual assault?
@”Druk”
Welmer,
I have a strange suspicion that “Druk” is Null.
Ha, I fucking KNEW that claim was going to be made.
Ha, I fucking KNEW that claim was going to be made.
As did we.
Justus -
Omegas are honorary women. Women have an axe to grind against men, especially men who are least like women.
Don’t be dense.
Not bragging. It’s pretty much par for the course. He used to be a bouncer. He bangs strippers. He was just telling me about his night.
This is actually reasonably intelligent, but I think probably the most insightful comment I made on this post is being ignored.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/22/male-on-male-sexual-harassment/#comment-23770
Everyone wants to politicize something, but not everything is really about what they want it to be about.
Money and status do not make men alphas. I’m not a jock by any stretch of the imagination (though I do lift heavy shit for a living). I’m probably closer to a nerd. But “alpha” is grounded in human nature, and men still respond to alpha qualities. The big thug might be managed by some wily little accountant who could buy and sell him three times over. But that guy only gets to have that power because he is protected by dudes with guns. It all comes around.
Most of the nerds who make fun of alphas sit and play video games where they fantasize about being alphas. They will tell you how much better and smarter they are–and sometimes they actually are–but men still respond to archetypal masculinity. I would agree that archetypal masculinity doesn’t always give a man an advantage in the modern world (protected by men with guns)–the alpha I described above, quite frankly, is not designed for feminized, polite society. That’s a different problem and a different issue. But the fact remains that so many nerds and others who are angry that their qualities and talents don’t make them “alphas” are a little bitter about it. Everyone wants to psychoanalyze the alphas to knock them down. Often, they’re just wrong. But hey, let’s psychoanalyze the nerds a little. The idea that they don’t have an axe to grind is absurd.
”””””Of course, the correct response was probably for him to say “Aye, papi†and act like he enjoyed it until everyone started laughing or got totally grossed out…
Stuff so close to this happens at my work while we are all laughing our asses off that it’s hard for me to be appalled without seeing a video of how it went down.
”””””””’
Are you serious? Feats of strength maybe doing takedowns to decide who is stronger. Practical jokes horseplay. Dry humping by 7 guys wtf. I thought the gay shit only happened with the black free masons in the army where you here about initiation where they have to suck each others dicks and shit and the guy gang rape only heard about in haiti or movies talking about it in prison on tv. So maybe hispanics are pieces of shit if that is normal. I never really dealt with them.
Like I said, anything will sound sensational if you transcribe it for a court case. I’d have to see a video to really know if it was as insane as it sounds.
Jack: I’d like to know where you draw the line between horseplay and [sexual] assault.
(assume no consent given)
Is it slapping another man’s ass? (You seem to think not)
Is it touching another man’s nipples? (You seem to think not)
Is it rubbing your genitals on another man? (You seem to think not)
— (“…the sneak attack nipple tweak, and the occasional dry hump…the famous football ass pat…There’s rarely anything to it.”) –
Rubbing your genitals in another man’s face?
Rubbing your hands on another man’s genitals?
Sticking fingers in another man’s mouth?
Sticking a finger in another man’s ass?
Sticking your genitals in another man’s ass?
(remember, assume no consent given)
From your comment,
“However it came down, I have trouble feeling bad for the “victim†unless he was truly humiliated in some tremendously lurid way or full-on butt-raped in cold storage.”
it sounds like it’s the last item on my list. If you would be a little less vague and specify where you draw the line, that would be helpful.
Kulak: Hah, you remind me of those paranoid people on libertarian blogs that accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being a government operative.
Druk is a feminist operative.
@Jack – I think I’m in the same boat as you in certain areas. I don’t consider myself a jock or a nerd, more in between. I’m an engineer, but I spent 4 years in the infantry. I think I’ve had a decent array of experiences from both sides. I definitely don’t believe that nerds are innocent in the vindication department, but I do think that you miscalculated when you called all dissenters both omegas and women, because you meant two different things and were over generalizing.
Yes, men respond to archetypal masculinity, but I hardly think that dry humping and gay pretense is a manly quality, though apparently you and others would disagree with me. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I have to agree with Gunslinger. Feats of strength are manly competition, and undermining opponents by questioning their sexual prowess is as well, but submitting to the bachelor clan and acting gay in response is definitely a beta move. I think you have to make a distinction between the men challenging others with homosexual advances, and those who play along with them.
ex. In Boondock Saints, the gay detective calls his male lover a fag for wanting to cuddle. Pure alpha, and establishes his dominance even though he’s homosexual. He occasionally made gay jokes to set the other cops off guard, but NEVER allows his masculinity to be questioned with homosexual reference EVEN THOUGH HE’S GAY. Someone referenced “the fag man” and he shot them the mean eye and cut them down without saying a word. I think it’s a perfect example.
@Kulak – Just a pointer, it’s better if you don’t line your tin foil hat with mercury. There are some serious side effects associated with heavy metal exposure. Think about it.
@Kulak – Just a pointer, it’s better if you don’t line your tin foil hat with mercury. There are some serious side effects associated with heavy metal exposure. Think about it.
__
Wow, how original the zingers and comebacks from the nerd beta boy camp are lately? That’s absolutely hysterical.
Nothing personal there, btw, it is just that I have a revulsion to manginas who have this reflexive need ‘white-knight’ themselves any time they even get a whiff of anything critical of women; and to those who passive-aggressively insult others in a pussy ad hominun way like you and your sidekicks do.
Now I am telling this to you straight: GO FUCK YOURSELF and GET THE FUCK OFF OUR SITE, you little PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BEEYOTCH.
Cry more, Kulak. No one is listening.
Justus-
It’s a complicated subject. Which is part of the reason why I said I’d really need to see a video of what went down in this post. I’ve seen perfectly normal men engage in horseplay that, if you wrote it all down, would seem horrific. But if I was in the room, I might not think much of it. That’s really what I’m getting at here, I guess. It’s not about saying there aren’t lines, but where the lines are can be really fuzzy, especially out of context. I would hate to see generally decent men be singled out as some sort of “sex offender” for what I perceive to be fairly normal, harmless male interaction. That’s where this kind of prosecution points. The net effect is that good men who are really just goofing around won’t be able to be themselves, because they fear dismissal or lawsuits. That’s what has happened over and over with male-female sexual harassment suits.
Justus,
I overreacted to you, and it was wrong of me to use such harsh language. Also wrong of me to call you ‘beta’ and all that nonsense — for one thing, I don’t know you, and additionally, I really don’t agree with rather subjective hierarchies anyway.
However, I feel it was unecessarily sarcastic on your part to make the gratuitous ‘tin-foil hat’ comment toward me for merely guessing that your commentary beared a resemblance to someone else.
We here were having a long-running issue with a commentator who just couldn’t stop personally attacking and insulting people, so I was a bit ‘trigger-happy’, if you will.
At any rate, I can assure you that nearly no one here will mind one bit if you wish to disagree with them, as I certainly wouldn’t — not in the least. It is just that we do it all civilly and like men.
We can agree or disagree — doesn’t matter since either way we can take it as an opportunity to learn something from eachother.
That being said, welcome aboard.
Chuck:
When I played sports in junior high and high school guys did all sorts of crude things. Performing an “oil change†was one; one guy tries to insert his finger in another guy’s ass. “Tea bagging†is common, especially among football jocks. These are all crude forms of entertainment.
I also grew up playing every sport under the sun, in the flyover states, have competed all the way from teeball to NCAA D1,** and … have absolutely never seen anything like this, ever. Firsthand, secondhand, etc. Not a single once. In fact, it’s interesting to hear the counterpoint
There was plenty of hazing, sure. The usual, Ben-Gay into jockstraps, cross-dressing “fashion shows” starring freshman football players, shaving heads, naked hockey players thrown into the piles of snow and Zamboni dregs that lined the edges of the rink, etc. But in the thousands of hours I’ve spent in locker rooms, I’ve absolutely not once seen, or even heard friend-of-a-friend stories of, what you’re talking about.
Have you seriously seen this stuff happen, or had it happen to you? Because I long ago threw it into the dustbin of propaganda meant to pathologize the normal, deep-seated male revulsion to homoerotic contact (of any sort, anywhere).
This whole thread is a huge surprise to me, as 99% of this sort of stuff that has reached my ears has come from the same sorts of PC types who also spew forth such suspect factoids as “10% of men are gay” and “really, we’re all bisexual”.
But, apparently, even Hugh Hefner has gone AC/DC. Who knew.
**In D1, only an individual sport without real locker rooms to speak of; mostly team sports from k-12.
Um, I have no idea where the words “In fact, it’s interesting to hear the counterpoint” came from in that last post. They aren’t supposed to be there.
Rogue copy/paste finger, hmm.
Epoxy:
I’ll tell you of one incident I saw (or at least the aftermath) and let you judge. On a bus ride home from a football game, a sophomore named Pre Sha’ Allen masturbated and jizzed in the hair of the kid in the seat in front of him – Donny King. A fight ensued.
Guys tried to “oil change” each other all the time. Perhaps there was an assumption on the part of the changer that the finger wouldn’t get inserted all the way into the anus, so maybe it was half-assed, please accept my pun.
I mis-wrote on the tea bagging. I heard of it, but have never seen it. What I did see, when he tried to do it to me and some other guys, was another football kid pull his pants halfway down and try to rub his ass crack on others’ faces.
And ball-tapping, of the sort where you walk by a buddy and smack his sack with the back of your hand is commonly practiced among men up through their Twenties.
So I’m not sure what sports you played in high school, but this shit happened quite frequently in high school football – in Texas.
”””””’There was plenty of hazing, sure. The usual, Ben-Gay into jockstraps, cross-dressing “fashion shows†starring freshman football players, shaving heads, naked hockey players thrown into the piles of snow and Zamboni dregs that lined the edges of the rink, etc. But in the thousands of hours I’ve spent in locker rooms, I’ve absolutely not once seen, or even heard friend-of-a-friend stories of, what you’re talking about.”””””
””””””””Chuck:
When I played sports in junior high and high school guys did all sorts of crude things. Performing an “oil change†was one; one guy tries to insert his finger in another guy’s ass. “Tea bagging†is common, especially among football jocks. These are all crude forms of entertainment.”””””””””””””””””””””””
Me either and played football, baseball, wrestling, tennis, karate, swiming, and cross country.
Except for the initiation story I mentioned but that wasn’t a sports club either and all the guys who were there that heard the dude tell it were like wtf is wrong with you.
I appreciate the change in sentiment. I felt it necessary to be overly sarcastic, mostly because of the casual nature of your accusations, which I knew were wrong, and I didn’t want my introduction to posting on Spearhead to be undermined as some kind of ploy by someone who was not me. I hope to post more, where my distinctive nature can be fully recognized.
I agree, to a point. Our “justice” system has made a mockery of the word, and completely obliterated the idea of serving the people by protecting their rights as well as ensuring their safety. The biggest problem I see is that asking the government to change their response to situations becomes moot, because I would much rather see them remove their response altogether. Asking government to change their mind about something can basically cement their belief that they have a right to settle the issue at all. I believe that government has reached far beyond rights protection and has far too much power to decide on social issues. We need to fight this fact, instead of fighting about HOW they decide on social issues.
This is definitely beyond where I draw the line. Anyone acting in this manner is asking to get a stiff set of knuckles, the social ostracization be damned. If I let some dude finger my ass simply to fulfill some social requirement, I’d never forgive myself. If that makes someone omega, then what lengths must you go through to be alpha? I’m of the opinion that an alpha wouldn’t stand for this kind of treatment, and neither would any self-respecting beta.
Justus:
This stuff was happening to freshmen and sophomores in high school by bigger guys. There wasn’t a whole lot of recourse.
The Hugh Hefner story has been out for ages.
And really, the more sexual one becomes, the more open one becomes to various sexual proclivities.
Back in the 50′s, intercourse was the norm. And a girl willing to give head was a “bad girl,” in a dirty, naughy, good kinda way. Today, all girls give head, and anal is “pushing limits.” In another 40 years, it will be having your pet rotweiler join you in bed or something.
That’s what happens with sex, and probably what happened with Hugh.
Although we have base sexual drives, your brain is still more powerful.
Why do you think we were able to develop moral values that stop us from stealing, rather than living by survival of the fittest, and simply killing the corn farmer after being so stupid to grow and harvest corn?
It can also work the other way.
I know a couple of fellows that got so highly sexed by screwing so many girls that, yes, they dabbled in bisexuality. “Pushing limits” is a drug. You have to keep pushing further to get the same thrill.
Remember the first time you felt up a girl back in highschool? Probably the best thing in the world, at the time… but, after a while, it wasn’t. And you wanted to take it to the next level.
It is why some people want to enter into swinging, BDSM, and other such things – to push limits.
I know a few people in the gay community. And I observe quite keenly. I believe there are “classically gay men” who are truly/only attracted to men on a basic masculine level (They are attracted to masculine qualities), but, I have also witnessed some behaviour in others that I would classify as people trying to push limits, or seek further thrills, trying to relive perhaps, that same thrilling experience the first time they kissed a girl, then got to second base, and then third… now they are on the 400th base, like Hugh. So, just my personal observation, but I think there is “classically gay” and then there is also an element out there that are “limit pushers.” LOL! Just my own personal observations and ponderings.
I appreciate the change in sentiment. I felt it necessary to be overly sarcastic, mostly because of the casual nature of your accusations, which I knew were wrong, and I didn’t want my introduction to posting on Spearhead to be undermined as some kind of ploy by someone who was not me. …
Point taken.
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