Denise Romano v. The Seduction Community
Denise Romano is no friend of pick-up artists. Â Ms. Romano has accused pick-up artists of being abusive to women. Â She claims that Game represents a kind of Fraud, invalidating consent for women who have sex with pick-up artists.
Ms. Romano believes that Game, and pick-up artists, are morally culpable for coercing women into having sex. Â She believes that Game is a kind of brainwashing, that it manipulates the will, therefore constituting sexual assault.
Denise Romano is just bitter . . .
Ms. Romano argues ad nauseum that Game is morally wrong. Â She attacks the specific terms that pick-up artists use, claiming that they objectify women. Â She thinks that some pick-up artists are rude, awful jackasses who use women for sex without consideration for that woman’s feelings.
On some accounts, she is right.
Ms. Romano makes a Kantian argument. Â Intentionally or not, she evokes the Categorical Imperative.
In the First Formulation of the Categorical Imperative, Kant states:
“Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”
The first formulation is based on the “golden rule”, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Â A universalizable maxim is a moral duty. Â A maxim must be logically consistent. Â It is not logical to will that you can steal from others without allowing that they can steal from you.
So don’t convince attractive people to have sex with you unless you want them to do the same.
The Second Formulation is closer to Ms. Romano’s logic:
“Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end.”
This second formulation more specifically addresses Ms. Romano’s objection to Game and the Seduction Community. Â Her real objection is that pick-up artists use women for sex without regard for their inherent moral value as persons (i.e. moral agents; people are capable of making moral choices, and therefore have moral worth).
If I were a Kantian, I would care.
The premise that seduction is inherently abusive assumes that people have a moral duty to one another. Â Where does this moral duty come from? Â Is there a divine law that we mustn’t break? Â Does the power of Christ compel us?
No it doesn’t.
There is no such thing as moral obligation. Â Morality is a social construct, an abstraction grown out of the human aversion to pain and death. Â Right and wrong amount to personal injury and property damage.
How can this be? Â If this were the case – if the world were, in fact, amoral – then life would be horrible! Â We would all live in constant fear of pain and death. Â The truth is, we do. Â The world is a dangerous place. Â It does not care about your pain.
Only you do.
Each of us recognizes the fact that such an existence – one of constant fear and danger – is miserable. Â Each of us accepts, if only tacitly, a kind of great truce with our fellow man. Â Thomas Hobbes calls it the Second Law of Nature:
” . . . that a man be willing, when others are so too, as far forth as for peace and defence of himself he shall think it necessary, to lay down this right to all things; and be contented with so much liberty against other men as he would allow other men against himself.” – The Leviathan; Chapter XIV
There it is again, the Golden Rule. Â The difference here is that Hobbes isn’t concerned with universalizable maxims. Â Hobbes suggests that we shouldn’t run around bonking each other over the head and stealing one another’s shit because a world like that would be miserable.
That does not mean we are obligated in any way to treat other persons with regard for their moral agency. Â It means we must treat them with regard for their ability to kill us and take our shit.
See the difference?
Society is not based on altruistic principles, but on self-interest. Â Each of us are responsible for our own well-being. Â We are not obliged to worry about the wants or needs of others, except when we choose to.
As far as Game is concerned, Consent is the extent of the Law.
Here is where Ms. Romano’s argument thickens. Â She holds that Game is a kind of Fraud, therefore legally invalidating any Consent given.
Ms. Romano’s premise relies upon the fact that Game is a form of deception. Â Pick-up artists will often use a variety of deceitful practices in order to seduce a woman. Â They adopt persona cultivated to entice women, they use canned material that is often little more than phony stories, they may lie about their names or facts about their lives.
Pick-up artists lie their asses off.
The problem is that lying and Fraud are not the same thing. Â People lie all the time, and are guilty of nothing more than bad taste. Â Pick-up artists lie and are guilty of nothing more than being douche bags.
Women wear flattering clothing to hide their flaws. Â They use make-up to conceal blemishes and padded bras to accentuate their breasts. Â They tell men all kinds of things to attract them, and sometimes they lie.
Does any of this constitute Fraud? Â No.
Fraud: A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant’s actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact, (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
Elements 1-4 are clear; they outline the constituent parts of a lie. Â Element 5 is where things get tricky. Â In order for a lie to constitute Fraud, it must cause injury. Â Specifically, the victim must be deprived of rights or property. Â Furthermore, any lies must be false “statements of fact”.
Opinions and qualitative statements don’t count.
When a woman has sex with a pick-up artist, she is not buying a sales pitch or exchanging goods or services. Â She is engaging in consensual sex. Â Sex is straight-forward, what you see is what you get. Â There is no false advertising once the clothes come off.
Buyers beware.
One sticking point here concerns STDs; a person who knowingly endangers another without making their partner aware of their condition beforehand obviates that person’s ability to make an informed decision.
. . . And if you’re having unprotected sex or being incautious with your body, shame on you.
In most cases, when someone goes home with a person they have just met, they do so at their own peril. Â If bad sex or a smirch on your reputation is the worst that happens, count your blessings. Â Consider the ramifications of your actions before you act, there is no RESET button.
Denise Romano’s argument is the argument of a bitter woman looking to obviate her own responsibility for having slept with someone she regrets. I am not stating that this is actually the case. I don’t care.
Game is just nerdy guys trying to get laid. It isn’t magic. It isn’t hypnosis. It certainly isn’t sexual assault.  It’s just a game.
If women want to stand on equal footing with men then they have to accept the fact that, when they wake up next to a Gorgon, maybe they should have said No to that last shot of Jagermeister.
As for Denise Romano, maybe she should stop drinking the Kool-Aid.
Max is probably drunk. Â You can sift through more of his nonsense at FKIN.
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{ 234 comments… read them below or add one }
Just like remembering something that must have been rape . . . years ago.
Poor widdle wimmin!
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The crux of the problem is:
Feminist Activists’ extensive history of denigrating morality as preventative for pre-marital sex – and subsequent approval of abortion – suddenly now embracing morality as a noble cause and preventative for seduction.
Hypocrisy.
All other discussion following is overcomplicated gumflapping.
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“Denise Romano is no friend of pick-up artists. Ms. Romano has accused pick-up artists of being abusive to women. She claims that Game represents a kind of Fraud, invalidating consent for women who have sex with pick-up artists.”
In essence, she is saying that women are totally incapable of recognizing a PUA from a sucker.
She doesn’t mention that women much prefer gamers to honest men.
And she is very careful in hiding the fact that women are sluts, for most of them.
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Several times I’ve been ‘gamed’ by women to have sex. I (now) feel violated.
Where do I go to complain?
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What is this now, four articles on this obscure man-hater? Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll? LOGIC AND FACTS DO NOT WIN PEOPLE LIKE HER OVER. She is an extortionist and only gains power by all the attention you give her. How is this hard to understand?
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I can not accept that when a man makes love to a woman (or has sex if you prefer) he is taking anything from her. In fact it is just the opposite he is giving her quite a lot. I will go even further and say that for a men sex is an act of self sacrifice. That might sound odd as we would all concede that men are sexually driven. But what we are driven to is to give pleasure not to receive it.
This really is not so absurd as it might seem if you have not thought in this way before. Take for example men’s pre-occupation with the strength and longevity of his erection. It matter not at all to a man how long his erection last for. It matter an awful lot to a woman though. Lets face it erections are not the pleasurable part – orgasm is the pleasure. The rest is hard work. And that work is done to excite and please women so they can have orgasms. I bet most of you will have had the experience of holding back until the woman climaxes. That is an act of self sacrifice.
The article above covers so many of the moral bases. I just wanted to add my perspective.
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I could not agree more, Zeta – logic and facts do not win people like her over.
In fact, I wrote a post about this very issue earlier today.
And in it, I too made reference to the particular man-hating mendicant Denise Romano, WTF, BBQ, because, as I put it,
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LMAO!
Woman: I had sex with a doctor – only to discover that I had actually been raped by a security guard!
If no men did game – women would never get laid – then they would all be as cranky as Denise Romano!
Conclusion:
When these Wimmin get what they want – they just make themselves more miserable.
Just take a look at what men are doing to marriage – after the feminists claimed it was “slavery for women”.
Now, women are crawling and bawling back, begging for marriage.
What would be the result of feminists having their way with “game”?
We would have women crawling and bawling back to us, and begging for sex…
This is already happening…
I have actually met a few of these women.
What fun!
ROFL – You Go WIMMINS!
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Logic n’ Facts n’ stuff
don‘t even win over
MRA’s
Go Team
rah
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“Ms. Romano has accused pick-up artists of being abusive to women. She claims that Game represents a kind of Fraud, invalidating consent for women who have sex with pick-up artists.”
By fraud, it seems Ms Romano is taking umbrage at men who seek to present themselves to women as being more attractive than they actually are in order to induce the latter to have sex with them. Thin ice indeed. Does she hold women to the same standard, I wonder? If not then clearly she is a hypocrite; if so then, by implication, she is saying that all women who wear, for example, makeup, high heels, push-up bras etc. to make themselves more attractive to men are rapists if they then have sex with the men so attracted.
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As for this article, I had only dreamed of the day on which I would find Kant and Hobbes discussed on the Spearhead!
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This dead horse has turned to hamburger.
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That’s the god’s honest truth.
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MMMMMMM. Hamburger.
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Yeah, we confronted this over at Obsidian’s blog. She’s basically trying to say that sex obtained through use of Game is rape. I posted a comment to Obsidian’s blog—here it is in it’s entirety:
http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/an-open-letter-to-denise-romano-ma-edm-a-major-corrective-to-her-views-on-game-other-issues/#comment-3259
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Denise is not a “Feminist” and neither am I. We don’t care how much sex you have and with whom. We don’t care if you have sex all day every day with different women. We don’t care if you love porn and hire hookers regularly. No one is trying to “stop you from getting sex”. However, we will not allow a group of men to teach and USE mental abuse and coercion to get sex from women and NOT address it.
Game uses notoriously amoral Psychological Conditioning. The same that Cults use (to a much greater degree obviously).
Getting a woman to “consent” under duress (which includes deception as “duress”) is automatically “non consent” if you are using those methods.
Whether you like it or not, deception is considered BY LAW forcing someone to “consent under duress”. Although it is unlikely it would result in a Rape or Attempted Rape Charge, it WOULD be Attempted Sexual Assault, Attempted Sexual Abuse, or Sexual Assault and Sexual Abuse.
Those things all put you into the National Sex Offender Registry Database FOR LIFE. Most States require you to provide ALL your information to them such as your Employer, your Residential Address, your photos, your driver’s license numbers, your plate number, and even WHAT you were charged with. Your life is OVER if you get even ONE of those charges.
Many men studying PUA CLEARLY have not read and understood the Laws on Consent. They may cross the “legal consent” line without meaning to but that WON’T stop them from being prosecuted with a Crime. And the man would be deserving of that Conviction, too.
What Denise and I don’t understand is why these men are SO desperate for sex that instead of just getting a hooker, hiring an escort, or even jerking it to some porn, they are willing to pay THOUSANDS to Salesmen who are “Entertainers Only” (and have disclaimers saying so) for the advice of men who are TEACHING you how to commit a crime and get away with it. They are TEACHING you how to abuse women.
If a woman “deceives” you into taking all your money and all your assets using some LMR methods and a little plain old “lying” would you say there is nothing wrong with that? That she is totally justified in “using any means necessary” to get what she wants from a man?
Would you say it if a Car Dealer lied and sold you a lemon? Would you shrug and say “Wow, guess that’s my fault for letting him trick me” NO.
We are not talking about a woman who leaves a bar and goes home with a man has been “assaulted”. But if AFTER going home with him he’s using LMR and “mind control” techniques to push her into sex, he is GUILTY of Sexual Assault. Period.
The fact that all PUA’s I’ve seen so far have basically shrugged and said “So, what? We are entitled to get laid by beautiful women.”
No you are not. No one “deserves” sex with anyone else just because you’re a “nice person”. You do not need sex to live. It’s not a RIGHT, it is a PRIVILEGE that you have to EARN.
Basically PUA’s are a group of men who don’t understand that their IS such a thing as “your own league”. Some women ARE out of your league. Maybe because they’re wealthy, maybe because they really ARE a Supermodel, maybe just because you’re not as smart as she is…..she’s ALLOWED to be “out of your league” and ignore you.
These guys act like they have a “right” in the first place to fuck whatever woman they want to. They don’t. If you want sex, you earn it through courtship like every other man on the planet does.
Most men of honor that are anywhere from 20-40 and are intelligent, successful, attractive, honest, respectful, etc still open doors and take a woman on at least 3 dates before he even tries to kiss her. That’s what you SHOULD do. A “nice girl” wouldn’t GIVE YOU anything before that.
So instead of just appreciating that and earning your way into her heart, you want to take the lazy, sleazy way and just deceive her to get into her pants.
You COULD just go find a drunken slut or a hooker and have sex with HER, but no…..it’s not REALLY about the sex for you guys….it’s about REVENGE ON WOMEN. It’s also about “Waaahhh the hot cheerleader rejected me in High School and now I’m gonna make all women pay!”
These men are simply rejects who are too delusional to realize that there really ARE women who are “out of their league” and for a good reason. They are men who are low-lifes and use the equivalent of a Roofie in her drink to get laid by the “nice girls” who otherwise wouldn’t look at them.
What you don’t realize is that if you AREN’T courting her properly, respecting her boundaries, and “dating” like a normal human….you’re not a “quality man”. You are then a man who DESERVES to only get hookers and low-life drug abusers and drunks.
A man who uses intentional deception to “isolate” her and get into her pants faster IS a low-life who deserves to be ostracized and treated as one.
I don’t use “mind control” to steal money or sex from men. I don’t “lie” and trick them into thinking that I care for them if I don’t. Because that would make me a sick piece of shit.
That’s what PUA’s are (except so far Hugh Ristik and Assanova) is nothing more than a low-life trash that our Daddies (rightfully) taught us to ignore, watch out for, and never been seen with/around.
If you want a “good woman” to have ongoing sex with you, date you, or have a LTR with you, you have to EARN it HONESTLY just like she does. You aren’t entitled to sex with her or anyone else. Just like getting a promotion, buying a home, getting in shape….if you don’t WORK at it honestly, you don’t deserve it and are likely to fail.
It also doesn’t help the “PUA Community” (word of advice guys: only actual Cults use terms like “community” to describe themselves) that they ALL have obvious ties to Misogynists groups and MRAs.
Denise is right and so am I. We have the right to want to wipe slime and low-lifes off the face of the earth to protect ourselves, other women, children, and even the men who are foolishly using their techniques.
There is no “Gold Diggers Club” out there teaching women to use mind control on men to “get to the money quicker”. No boot camps, seminars, or books dedicated to celebrating that. If there WERE the men would be calling for Crucifying and Burning those women as the epitome of Evil. And yet…..here they are….guilty of something much worse….trying to get sex from a woman when you haven’t earned it.
They SHOULD all be ostracized, shamed, and imprisoned because they contribute nothing but abuse, sexual deviancy, and crime to the world.
There are plenty of groups, agencies, law enforcement, docs, and psychs that have NO IDEA about this subculture and how negative and twisted their practices are. Denise and I (and many others) intend to make sure the world knows, that they are now watched and inspected by Professionals and Law Enforcement, and thwarted as the thugs and woman-abusers that most of them are.
We were unaware of how serious these men take this Seduction stuff and I always assumed it was something only a dork, retard, or idiot would pay for/use. Most other people probably assume the same. I intend to let EVERY group who MAY have something to say about it know the details to. I intend to make it impossible for these men to remain anonymous, make money as “Entertainers” selling abuse, and make sure that they are watched as closely as a hate group or the KKK (and once more and more people are aware of what they do and who they do, they’ll be watched and monitored like the other sicko groups are).
And of course as much as I hate the Media, they are the best way to get the info out there and they’ll dig right into some “Subculture Sleaze”. I have already received offers regarding “doing a story on” and such from some VERY well-known sources.
They are going down and doing so quickly. Abusers are cowards at heart and at the end of the day you can always trust a coward to STAY a coward. They’ll disappear and be forgotten in no time. That’s the way it should be of low-lifes and lesser human forms.
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“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
Um..I don’t see modern women doing this….I am not going to do to THEM what they did to me…I am just going to ignore them….and I would be well pleased if western women ignored me too.
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This is the crux of Lady Raine and Denise Romano’s objections to Game. Nicely summed up here by LR.
They don’t want men to have choices.
They believe that certain men are undeserving of certain women – even if they can make themselves attractive enough to those women.
Good God, you moron, do you not realise that you are validating everything that PUAs say?
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Lady Raine January 20, 2010 at 11:02
“However, we will not allow a group of men to teach and USE mental abuse”
So your argument is that women are children and not in control of their mind to be able to process what is being said to them. You see that a woman who is being persuaded to do something she has full over as consistent with a child who does not have the yet developed faculties to filter persuasion to do something not good for the child like get in the car with a stranger?
Thank you for supporting my assertion that women have a similar mental capacity to small boys in the range of 7-10 Lady Raine. Of course, such children as weomen should be the custodians of an adult man, as it used to be, to keep them from such ‘mental abuse’.
Oh…by the way…is kidnapping a mans children NOT abuse in your world? What do you have to say about the perjury and kidnapping women do every day of the week. You know, like real crimes, not just ‘talking’ to women like PUAs do.
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Game doesn’t work.
It’s not an overwhelming biological inducement of specific organisms into funkiness – like catnip.
It’s not a venom designed by nature to stun hapless victims into stupor.
If it were, I’d have already gotten into Lady Raine’s pants.
No, it’s redheads who are catnip to us hapless men. And AZNS.
Outlaw them!
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Lady Raine January 20, 2010 at 11:02
LR,
PUAs bend the truth a bit in order to get laid…or they might not even bend it, they might just present a good spin. After 23 years with the same woman and being pretty much a monk in the last 10 years I am now getting all the female company I can deal with. I don’t have to tell a single lie. I just have to present myself as I am. If a man bends the truth a bit to compete, fair play to him.
However, my ex committed 14 counts of perjury in the family court. That women like you condone and support perjury while moaning and whining about PUAs ‘lying’ in the rough and tumble of getting laid shows you up for the hypocrites you are.
Message to you western women. We don’t like you any more. You are crap. We are dating real women who treat us like real men. Good luck with your cats and your vibrators. We are done with you.
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By the way, guys, it’s just like I said.
See how LR jumps around from one justification to the other?
She seems to think that casual sex itself is rape!
She’s lecturing PUAs on how they will never find themselves a ‘nice girl’ unless they act chivalrous!
So, what – sex with a ‘bad girl’ is necessarily rape?
She seems to have the strange idea in her head that there are ‘leagues’ of people, who should just stick to their own.
It sounds an awful lot like the talk of a white supremacist.
You see, in a free society, anyone is allowed to have sex with anyone else they please, as long as both parties consent.
Not so for LR, who has divided us all up into ‘leagues’, and anyone who dares sleep with someone from another ‘league’ is committing an act of rape.
I can only presume that the same applies to women – that a fat woman sleeping with an attractive man is sleeping out of her ‘league’, and is therefore raping him.
Or is it the case that women are hapless victims who never seek out casual sex, and can only be forced into it?
In Lady Raine’s world, all women are ‘nice girls’, who would never even dream about kissing a man before the third date – therefore, anything which happens before this point is rape.
In Lady Raine’s world, women are so mentally incompetent that simply being ignored is an act of manipulation. They are so deficient that they have absolutely no control over themselves once attracted to a man; they simply cannot say no, think things through, or refuse to go home with him. And it’s STILL rape!
An interesting world she lives in, certainly.
But not the real one.
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Roissy has banned LR from his site. Maybe you guys should take a page from the master. The benefit of keeping her around is… what?
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LR,
“There is no “Gold Diggers Club†out there teaching women to use mind control on men to “get to the money quickerâ€. ”
Um…you want to bet? Go do your research on all the web sites teaching women how to divorce their husbands making all sorts of false allegations. There is indeed a very healthy gold diggers club we all know about. They teach things like “criticise, criticise, criticise, make sure he can never do anything right. Undermine him at every opportunity to keep him off balance”.
LR, you are a liar and a hypocrite and I don’t mind calling you such.
You are probably ugly, angry, can’t get laid and you have NO PENIS AT ALL! LOL!! Yes, those at the standard rubbish you wimmin throw at us….we laugh at it and throw it back at you.
Boys are stupid, throw rocks are them?
Western women are stupid, throw facts at them.
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Raine, I ain’t readin’ of your crap until you bring me my sandwich!
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?
Cheap entertainment? Seriously, women DEMANDED sexual liberation, and now can’t deal with the consequences? Her whole post screams of ME, ME, ME, ME, ME.
Shut up.
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This all boils down to: men are doing things that Lady Raine doesn’t like.
They’re exercising their freedom to do quite legitimate things that Lady Raine, personally, does not feel comfortable with.
Thus, she wants to tar them as ‘rapists’. Why rapists? Well … who knows. It’s probably just a convenient, emotionally-charged label.
She is as much a victim of rape hysteria as any of us.
LOL!
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That last line was directed at LR, not Zeta.
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@Lady Stain-
You just traded in your bitch card for an idiot pass. Would you like to rethink the stupidity of everything you just said.
As long as women use sex and sexuality as a tool to coerce men into indentured servitude and as weapon to inflict psychological torture, you should not object to men who utilize deceit and lying to combat the inflated value of the vagina through the monopoly of sexual resources. Until the evolutionary directive to pass along ones DNA in order to ward off extinction, and all the associated emotional drives that propel men to be used, abused, and treated as slaves by women suddenly magically dissapear, I wouldn’t bitch about men upping their offensive capabilities in this sexual evolutionary arms race. Maybe women should focus on becoming better bullshit detectors instead. Off course, this would require women to get off their ass, read some books, study the world around them, and maybe be the one’s who approach men. Probably not then. Best we keep perfecting our ability to lie in order to get women in bed, or they will surely sell us further up shit creek through humiliation, scorn, rejection, and slavery. Let the sex without sin cast the first stone. Now that you girls have been lobbing them at our heads for the past three or four decades believing yourselves to be virtuous angels, I wouldn’t bitch so much when we decide to pick up those stones and throw some back. We are only pitching underhand anyways, just to be fair. It’s hard to get rid of every vestual appendage of chilvary. If we really wanted to get justice, our words would not be necessary. You do realize that we are playing nice don’t you? As a man hater, you should know what the worst of us are capable of? Lying and exagerating to make some bar sluts ginas tingle shouldn’t even register on your importance radar. I’d be surpised if you didn’t have a fair amount of scorn and contempt for the foolish trollips who fall for such hocus pocus anyways, but then again, we all know you got gamed yourself. How’s your son doing by the way?
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“An interesting world she lives in, certainly. But not the real one.”
Women are delusional, ALL of them, they simply do not live in the real world as we know it. This is something that became very clear to me about a year ago…I know..slow learner.
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In all fairness, I asked for it by publishing this post.
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“How’s your son doing by the way?”
This delusional man-hating bitch has a son. Poor bastard. His like is going to be really fucked up with a mother like this. Oh well. Bad luck to the kid.
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Does LR just copy and paste that stuff?
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Wow, this is mental. Game is just a bunch of guys trying to understand one of the greatest mysteries of the world: Women. The diference is that they actually succeded in understanding women, hence all the hate.
And dear God, what else males that aren’t thugs, have model bodies or are millionaires are supposed to do, huh? We aren’t going to just roll over and die, despite what you or Nature wants (Personal Maxim: Fuck Nature). Too scared of admiting what you truly want? Too bad, we discovered it anyways.
And really, most men aren’t worthy of whatever Cosmo, social circle induced ultra-high standard you want and those who do, are never going to be only of one women. And you over-estimate your own value on the sexual market (Hint: 30+ or fat, is the same of the nerdy guys).
PS: Oh man, and I thought that the resident batshit, white trash bitch had packed her toys out of here. Her text walls really make sour this place.
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“There is no “Gold Diggers Club†out there teaching women to use mind control on men to “get to the money quickerâ€. â€-Globalman
Ever watch Suze Orman’s show on CNBC?
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I think these femtards are getting far more attention than they deserve and every scrap of it is validating them. Pointing out that they are deranged lunatics is not going to make then suddenly become worthwhile human beings.
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Wow.
LR appears to actually believe that “game” = rape.
LR wants to give any woman the power to put any man she has ever had sex with in jail for “rape” based solely on the word of the woman.
“He GAMED me! The brute!”
Just out of curiosity, if a man is charged with applying “game”, how is he expected to defend himself? What possible defense can be offered to prove that a man did not use “psychological conditioning” and “mind control”?
It’s downright *scary* that women such as LR have the right to vote and serve on juries.
May God help any man who must rely upon her judgment to avoid prison after a false accusation.
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There seem to be two sides to this issue whenever it comes up here on SH:
1. Why bother? We’re not going to change her mind. Stop beating a dead horse.
2. Let’s get our facts straight, and examine her thinking about GAME under the pure light of logic, so as to expose the hypocrisy of her and her ilk.
I am an advocate of the latter. We can’t just let this fembot ramble on and on without answer, even though its tedious.
How many times has that happened in the last 40 years, and where are we now as a result?
By the way…I was raped…or at least I think so. The chick that left this morning had fake boobs, fake nails, dyed hair, colored contact lenses, capped teeth, wore control top pantyhose and horror of horrors: a counterfeit LV bag!
Where do I go to make my police report!
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Roland3337 January 20, 2010 at 11:48
My problem was I was married 18 years and didn’t get ‘raped’ enough!! LOL!!
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Bashing feminists from the sanctuary of our un-banable forum may be entertaining, but its certainly not worth expending valuable resources of thought, time and writing on.
It’s like making fun of the condemned before their execution.
Or, making fun of a calf before it becomes veal.
Just get it over with.
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lady stain again
oh the humanity
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we need a test case where a man marries a slim, young beautiful woman who claims to cook, clean and want to have kids and within 9 months she gains 50 lbs, has never cooked or cleaned and suddenly doesn’t want kids and he prosecutes HER for rape, larceny and theft of services for anything he ever did for her.
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Women for the fair treatment of skanks!
This woman is kidding, right? Is she even real or some sort of running joke? If women want to be taken seriously, they should close their legs. This is not rocket science. PUA’s can’t claim the moral high ground, but if a woman wants to wallow in the mud with them, then she shouldn’t claim victim status afterward.
Society is not based on altruistic principles, but on self-interest.
Even the Golden Rule is based upon self-interest. We’re not doing it to be nice, we’re doing it to be good, so that we can get into heaven and not spend eternity separated from God.
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dana January 20, 2010 at 12:01
I am actually working on raising a case in Ireland for the kidnapping of my former children by my ex. I have challenged women to sit on that jury and make it clear for all Irish men if they have any right to their own children under common law. I have told them I don’t care what the verdict is just that it be public to let me know what women think of kidnapping by the mother violating the rights of the father.
No surprises that I get a lot of hate posts about it because I am challenging women to this. You can read about this here. I have two women who are willing to sit on this jury to date. I have about 8 men willing to sit on the jury to try Judge Higgins. The Irish family Court judge that violated my property rights.
http://freemanireland.ning.com/forum/topics/gms-proposed-challenge-to-the
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Whoa. Just saw LR’s rant. Guess it’s not a joke, after all.
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“Whoa. Just saw LR’s rant. Guess it’s not a joke, after all.”
No more or less of a joke than all the other femnazis who support kidnapping, perjury, extortion and theft while complaining how men ‘mistreat’ them and ‘abuse them’ by, you know, gilding the lilly when trying to get laid.
Western women are 99.9% hypocrites and the other 0.1% won’t say anything about it. So I write them ALL off.
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It may not be, but I can no longer read anything by LR without hearing Yakety Sax.
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I don’t know why you guys argue with those two people. They don’t want to “debate” or “reason”, they’re just enforcing their opinion on people.
The academic especially, I’ve seen at a few random blogs where she’ll copy and paste ridiculously long legal definitions or stories or whatever in the comments section. She’s crazy. I was disappointed to see yet another article here about her, and yet another out of touch with reality comment from the Raine character. These two people are getting WAY too much attention.
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Many years ago, when I was still young and dumb and basically trusted women, I fell for a singles ad that the woman had paid someone $200 to write. After a couple of strange months hanging out I caved in to the pressure to have sex she was putting on me by whining about how I was “making her feel bad by not wanting her.” I also took her comment “I’m on birth control pills” as we were headed into the clutch as meaning “so, we won’t need condoms.” Having her tell me that she had herpes immediately after it was too late to do anything differently based on that knowledge assured that she only got one free hump.
< victim thinking> Wow, surely there is some law she broke somewhere in all that (aside from the unwritten unspoken rule of being a decent, honest person) that I ought to be able to sue her or put her in jail or something over, isn’t there? < /victim thinking >
No? Just gotta act like a responsible adult, learn from my mistakes, and go on and not make the same ones again?
(sigh) OK.
Got any cold beer?
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Here’s a thought:
When we have posts or rants from such loonies as LR, why not move their comments to some kind of ‘safe area’ or more precisely ‘shooting range’?
Could serve 2 purposes: avoids derailing the conversation, and gives anyone that needs it, practice in shooting down nut-case bug-eyed feminist rhetoric.
Could be a little labor intensive, though.
Like trying to keep gophers out of your yard.
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How DARE “Lady’ Cumstain” the (cough) “former” stripper, come here and give us lessons in, er, sexual morality! Who the fuck is this whore kidding???
Your credibility on these issues is absolutely NULL-N-VOID.
“…Yes, we do pity the clients. We talk about them, laugh about them, mock their looks, and make bets on how much we can take from them. It’s called A JOB!!! I am HIRED to DO THAT and make money for the club. Take it up with the owners of strip clubs if you have a problem with them “making men victimsâ€. …†@Lady Cumstain
Hmm, I suppose you were also somehow ‘forced’ to become a stripping whore, and treat men badly, heh? Lying bitch.
You know, by your buddy Denise’s ‘logic’ — you are a ‘rapist’ as well (LOL)!
Now go fuck off and get back to that ‘fantastic job’ you claim to have.
After all, if your obsessive mind did not already notice, we are in one of the worst recessions ever, and you wouldn’t want to lose your job and not be able to pay for that ‘great new place’ — you know, the one with the stake truck in the yard for ‘heavy haulin’ (is that a side job of yours?).
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Let me add a few tricks that women do to this list of lies:
1)Tales of woe and abuse from other men, to get the guy to “white knight” or see himself as a “white knight” for her, and to see her as a victim.
2)Women now routinely color their hair, have surgical procedures (lips, tits, nose-jobs, collagen injects, botox injects, dermabrasion, wear foundation****, wear false eyelashes, use expensive (and possibly pheromoned thesedays, who knows?) perfumes, reveal way too much skin, artificially tan their skin, artificially lighten their skin, and a host of other little visual tricks to increase their attractiveness in a dimly-lit lounge or club.
****I know Im not the only guy here who brought a gal home from a bar with clear skin and took a morning shower with a girl whose face suddenly was very freckled and had a shocking amount blemishes/little scars/big pores. It never ceases to amaze me how much different many women look without make-up. We as men have no “equal” to that, whereby we can go out selling our appearance as one thing, but you wake up next to something else. In effect, its kind of a lie, and it allows older women to compete with younger ones because they can paint over the effects of age for several years.
——————————————————————————————-
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Denise Romano,
Why are you, an ostensible professional, hanging around and PUBLICALLY ASSOCIATING YOURSELF with this utter gutter trash as LR??
She is an *attention whore* pure-and-simple, and is USING YOU (to add a veneer of ‘legitimacy’) in her OCD-addled quest for attention. She was posting on Roissy’s site FOR MONTHS after he put up that picture of her son — didn’t stop her in the least. Go back and read some of her sick comments and see for yourself just how disaturbed she is — if you dare.
I really do not think it is such a wise ‘career move’, if you get my drift, by befriending and helping an absolutely unhinged and DANGEROUS full-bore socio-path.
It is REALLY going to come back and bite you in the tuckus by your association with her!
Get away from her — AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!
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What’s funny about women like LR and Denise is that their main problem with game is that it allows “non-alphas” to meet women while the truth is that they are both out of the running for alphas anyway.
Game, in many ways, calls women’s bluff, and they don’t like it. The women commenting on the LR blog don’t like the Roissy author because he is the sort of man they would have rejected years ago, and now he has options and they don’t like the tables being turned.
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Equating PUA’s with the KKK is intellectually dishonest
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1)Tales of woe and abuse from other men, to get the guy to “white knight†or see himself as a “white knight†for her, and to see her as a victim.
It’s also often a pre-excuse for the bad behaviour which is about to come.
Do not involve yourself with any woman who trumpets her “abuse” or her “rayyyyyyyyyype” to you while you are just getting to know her.
As Zed pointed out in his recent post about Toxic Fathers, people who are involved in abusive situations often go to great lengths to hide what is actually going on.
Now, that is not to say that once they “break-through” that they must remain silent… but also, after they have helped themselves, they don’t go to great lengths to make sure that every single friggin’ person they meet knows of their situation within the first few meetings.
“Hi, I’m weeping Wendy. It’s nice to meet you Tom. Did you know I was rayyyyyyped? I just thought you should know that.”
Then, later as she starts flinging all kinds of psychological games and emotional violence at you, she will automatically fall back on the “you can’t get angry at me because I was rayyyyyped.”
Just say no to these people.
Even as “friends.”
You were raped? Bye bye.
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Patr333x January 20, 2010 at 12:42
Actually, it’s worse than that for them. What they are really upset about is that men are realising that women are trash and that pretty much any woman will do for sex for the night. You know, as long as she meets your criteria. A fundamental part of GAME is that it really doesn’t matter who the woman is. SHE is NOT important. All that is important is whether he can get her to put out.
This is something I have noticed much more myself in the last 20 months. Being with one woman for so long I was obviously very attached to her. But now I have a lot of different women I am noticing that it doesn’t really matter that much which woman I have sex with or make love with. As long as it all works ok I’m pretty happy. There is variation in how good they are and some of them are not dso great, but that’s ok.
I do have my favourites and I do search them out and then date them quite a bit. But in the end, I have learned that ‘all cats are black in the dark’. If I am not going to establish a relationship with a woman then it doesn’t matter at all what she is like. THAT is what they are really upset about. More men are learning there is nothing ‘special’ about any individual women at all.
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oops! Tag error. Tag error.
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A man telling a woman lies to get her into bed might be immoral, but its not illegal, and it sure as hell isn’t rape.
Some guy might tell “Joan” that she is beautiful, and he is so impressed with her, and her body is irresistable to him, and she might go ahead and go back to his place with him and have sex with him. If he doesn’t ever call her back, she wasn’t raped. She was played by a player, but she wasn’t raped.
I deeply suspect many of the women who are outraged about PUA’s is because they got their hopes up for one or two of these guys who didn’t call them back, and figured out that the men used some PUA material to make themselves look like alpha-males, and hence why the women found them so attractive. If women had any sense about it, they’d simply make men take them out on a few dates before being willing to sleep with them, and would try and find out about the person they were dating (whats his house like? is he really employed somewhere? is he a responsible member of society? is his life “going anywhere”?) etc. Hopping into bed for a one-night stand, or a fuck after the first date is a choice a woman makes. If the guy doesn’t call back, it doesn’t make it rape.
Only physical force, chemical-means (drugging her), or threats to harm her/someone she cares about constitute rape. Smooth pick up lines and being attractive enough to generate consent does not constitute rape. It may get a gal played, but thats not rape.
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Better now?
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Money exchanged hands in that transaction. Going to bed with someone is free. Monetary fraud is against the law. Sleeping with someone willingly you later wished you wouldn’t have slept with, is not.
PUA as “mind control”. Wow, it must be good. Then I guess every growing boy will want to buy copies of various PUA manuals. I’ll use it to make the neighbors dog to get me everyone else’s morning paper. Gimme a break!
Interestingly enough, I must admit Ladette Noir did have some good advice for women in her post though. Making a man take you out on a few dates before giving him sex……………..yup, that makes sense. Thats what your mamma’s and grandmamma’s would have taught you. A young girl might even want to see if he is gainfully employed, IS NOT AN ALCOHOLIC, comes from a stable family, has been economically responsible, keeps his house fairly neat and clean, seems to get along well with others (how does he treat waiters and salespeople, how does he treat strangers, is he polite to others that he wants nothing from).
What you are really ticked about LR, as evidenced by your posts, is that men are confident around women and dont see them “as out of their league”. Nobody is out of anybody’s league in this country, we are all equal under the law. There is no aristocracy here, no princesses, and no princes. Its a constitutional republic. You are guilty of so much of what Whiskey accuses women of that it makes you a parody of his theories. He should give himself a pat on the back.
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z said:
“A man telling a woman lies to get her into bed might be immoral, but its not illegal, and it sure as hell isn’t rape.”
Agreed 100%.
Don’t get me wrong, let the PUA’s do what they do.
But me personally, I’m of the school of thought that says….
“You don’t have to lie to kick it.”
I’m sure that some PUA ‘s will realize that eventually.
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Lady Deranged was a stripper!?!
LR- Is this the truth? You were a sexual extortionist who preyed on helpless men’s natural instincts and desires?
Prostitution is more moral then stripping. Stripping is like charging a starving man 100$ for a hamburger, knowing he will be hungry later in the day and in need of another hamburger. At least prostitutes earn their money, instead of milking it out of drunk men without really ever performing a service, unless you consider teasing me a service. I consider it psychological abuse.
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But yet….
We’re the ones exploiting them, huh?
RRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!
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fedrz: oops! Tag error. Tag error.
Better now?
Much, thank you.
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LR is falling under this:
Beta + Game = Punishment
Alpha+Game= Reward
Thats pretty vague but thats the truth.
get used to it.
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Guys, it is not that complicated :
Neither Denise Romano Madam nor LR are attractive to alpha men.
These wymyn don’t want even formerly Beta guys to get Game and score higher than them.
You will NEVER see a younger, more attractive woman get this troubled by Game. Certainly not expend energy to fight Game.
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Also remember what I keep saying :
80% of men and 99.9% of women will never, ever comprehend what Game is. No matter how hard you try to explain it. Adjust the amount of effort you are willing to make to explain Game in accordance with this numerical fact.
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@Jabherwochie
“Lady Deranged was a stripper!?!
“LR- Is this the truth? You were a sexual extortionist who preyed on helpless men’s natural instincts and desires?”
__
Jab,
It gets even better than this.
“Lady’ Cumstain” is a VIOLENT PSYCHOPATH who brags about it! –
“Ohhhh, I see….you’re confused. See I personally have no worries about that because no matter what I have been “charged with†legally, I have always and will always get out of anything/everything with no conviction.
“That’s something that I’m glad I have available to me. I lit a guy’s car on fire and danced around it while he watched and I got nothing. No charge, nothing. There’s tons of events like that so don’t mistakenly think that I am somehow “concerned†about the Law…..lolâ€
Wow. She not only “lit a guy’s car on fire…” and not only once, but there are “tons of events like that…”!?!
And this *sub-human* has the audacity to lecture us on abuse. LMFAO
She is a danger to herself and all those around her. Someone needs to do an intervention on her part before we see her on ‘Cops’ or one of those real-life crime shows on A&E.
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Who is she that I should care whether she continues breathing, let alone what she “thinks” or “believes”?
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Anybody know who that “Lady Raine” really is?
I have been examining her post – it is full of holes…
I would really like to pin her to the wall with some serious questions – and hear her answers.
Not to convice her of anything – just to add to the soon-to-come “humor” section on my web-site.
Why was such stoogish adversary banned anyhoo?
It seems like we could have had some real fun with that one >:>
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Please don’t ban LR. Her posts are so ridiculously overwrought that I find them highly entertaining.
The strangest thing? She denies she’s a feminist. No one who despises (is afraid of?) men and male sexuality so much (and who obviously thinks most women are complete morons or overgrown children) can be anything but.
But wait! Has she DEFRAUDED us with her fib?
I feel so used … .
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I just read through her blog.
http://ladyraine.wordpress.com/
DANG – it is a humor-generating GOLDMINE!
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@Richard
Check her WordPress blog. If you can resist the desire of clawing your eyes out of their sockets she left an about page.
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Read the first few lines in the “About Lady Raine” section.
I come across bitches like her in realspace…..
She’s probably the type who has no problem whatsoever kicking some random, innocent dude in the balls just for merely glancing at her.
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This is why women hate game in my opinon:
Whiskey, a guy I dont always agree with, but a smart guy nonetheless, has stated why women hate game. He says women hate game because its a betrayal in evolutionary terms.
Women want the most dominant men—socially and physically if possibly, but socially is the more important of the two.
If loads of men are walking around confident and “loud-n’-proud”, women dont really know which one’s are the true alphas.
In the jungle (Ive watched some vids about primate behavior), the alpha male-orangutans, chimps, and baboons are established by the fact that they can “beat up” the other males (which often changes as they age and the other males will sometimes keep maturing physically and will re-challenge them). The alphas are simply the winners of these fights, and the females have the alphas laid out before them in this way with no difficult identification on their part.
With us humans out at bars, women look to see the men who are socially dominant. They dont realize it, but thats what they are looking for. Usually confidence is the thing that they are attracted to, and they “shit test” to see if its the real deal. Since Game makes many men confident, they hate it viscerally. Its a “betrayal” because the PUA might not be the big-man at the office and may not be a rainmaker monetarily and may not be feared by other men—-which is what they primally want to score for themselves whether they ever admit it or not. They are all about status. We as men know this is just ridiculous and generally treat each other as ostensible equals out of common courtesy (especially men who have been in the military or other postitive social organizations that emphasize mutual respect towards your co-workers, etc).
Lady Shitstain probably deeply resents the thought of some guy who isn’t an authentic captain-of-the-football-team alpha ever fucking her and her ilk.
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That was the most depressing thing I have ever seen.
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“That’s something that I’m glad I have available to me. I lit a guy’s car on fire and danced around it while he watched and I got nothing. No charge, nothing. There’s tons of events like that so don’t mistakenly think that I am somehow “concerned†about the Law…..lolâ€
@Lady Cumstain
Hey Denise A. Romano, “MA, EdM” ,
IS THIS THE TYPE OF PERSON YOU WANT TO ASSOCIATE WITH?
ONE WHO BRAGS ABOUT LIGHTING CARS ON FIRE?
IS THIS NOT **VIOLENT ABUSE** ON HER PART TOWARD OTHERS?
HOW DO YOU THINK YOUR PEERS, SUCH AS -
**HENRY L. THOMPSON, Ph.D.**
**DR. SRINIVASAN PILLAY**
and, most especially, your hero -
**JACKSON KATZ**
ARE GOING TO THINK OF YOU FOR TAG-TEAMING YOURSELF WITH SUCH A CRIMINAL, YES **CRIMINAL** LOSER SUCH AS WENDY SCHWARTZ??
DO YOU WANT TO MAKE YOURSELF AN ABSOLUTE LAUGHINSTOCK AMONGST YOUR PROFESSIONAL COMMUNITY?
ESPECIALLY AFTER ALL THAT HARD WORK YOU DID TO PUT YOURSELF THROUGH SCHOOL AND TO GET ALL YOUR ACCREDITATIONS??
The choice is yours, Mz. Romano.
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Still flogging the same nag’s corpse, Ms. Romano? I Kant stand it. . .
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And she’ll most likely still side with her….
Most women will defend each other. And it doesn’t matter if the women who they’re defending right or wrong.
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Let’s just see if Lady Romano’s academic peers really approve of the company she keeps??
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Lady Raine:
“I’m terrified of chickens (and any large feathered fowl), monkeys, and clowns.”.
-Well, if we want her to stay away, I guess we need some chickens, monkeys and clowns over here…
I think I found a new blog to visit…
I am curious how such a women will respond (not respond >:>) to my questions/statements…
@GetReal
Why not tell those people about her attitudes now?
Why even give her a choice?
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This.
And not the kind of status which men appreciate.
Male hierarchy is based on functionality; the ‘alpha’, if you will, is the leader, because he is deemed most competent in that role by his followers.
When women rank men in hierarchy, it is not based on this at all; it is social hierarchy. There is no moral judgement involved. This is why they go for serial killers. Everyone knows them. They’re popular. Doesn’t matter that they killed people for fun. They’re high up on the social ladder – they’ve made a name for themselves.
What Wendy Raine (for Wendy is her name, which she reportedly hates) and her ilk object to is not so much that they, personally, may get ‘tricked’ into believing that a ‘beta’ is an ‘alpha’ -
But that Game threatens their entire conceptual system.
I mentioned above that Wendy seems to like to ascribe men and women to ‘leagues’, and that men should not try to rise out of their ‘league’ and associate with those in higher ‘leagues’.
This is what her worldview is based around: stratification of people into different levels of social and sexual hierarchy.
Game shits all over that, and allows men to climb up, down and all over the social and sexual hierarchy, with the consent and blessings of the women whom they attract, who would otherwise have been out of their ‘league’.
Women like Wendy will try to defend this ‘league’ hierarchy – in which 90% of women are eligible for 10% of men, and the rest can simply starve – at all costs. Because it shatters her worldview to think otherwise.
The connection of Game with rape is just a convenience. ‘Rape’ is emotionally-charged. Who doesn’t oppose rape? So she conflates this with rape to preserve a hierarchy system which benefits her and excludes the majority of men.
The reason it can’t work, is that Game is composed of thousands upon thousands of potentialities and mannerisms which cannot simply be banned, without calling upon the law to regulate our words, our expressions, our most personal choices in private as well as in public.
For instance, someone above described how he intentionally ignored a woman, in order to make her more interested in him, and it worked. That is Game. Wendy and Denise and their friends can call that ‘rape’ if they like; it doesn’t matter, because no one can ever regulate men to NOT Game. Game is not a rigid set of rules for interaction; it’s an approach. Right down to details such as how often you look at someone.
Are you going to try to criminalise that, Wendy?
Are you going to decree that if a man fails to look at a woman enough, he is raping her?
It doesn’t even matter if you do – these things can never be micromanaged by White Knight Government.
Game will always exist, because it always has – only now, more and more men know of it, and are using it, than SHOULD do according to the sexual and social hierarchy of Wendy and her friends, according to which most men – the ‘betas’ – should simply go without.
The question is, why should any man agree to this hierarchy? Why not trash the hierarchy altogether? Fuck your ‘leagues’. Men are transcending them. Rising above their stations.
It’s been said before that the MRM encounters such resistance because it is the first time in history that a sex has attempted to break out of its traditional gender role. Feminism, after all, was just an extension of chivalry, simply asking for more of the same treatment.
The MRM and Game advocate that men should have sex with women without having to do any providing or protecting duty – and this is what provokes rage in Wendy and Denise et al. Quite simply, they are bigots, who believe that a man’s place is at work, bringing home cash in exchange for sexual rewards.
Game has turned the reward system on its head, and has zapped the sexual power of women. No wonder they are finding it difficult to adjust. There’s hyperinflation on the pussy pound. They don’t like it one bit.
Who do they have to blame?
Feminism.
The sexual revolution.
What purported to free women has freed men, who are now able to indulge their carnal desires without any of the traditional obligations attached. This is what women believed they were getting, except their ‘traditional obligations’ were no worse than their current ones. Suddenly, they’re finding themselves fucked and chucked by practically every guy they pick up. Whoops. This was inevitable as soon as ‘free love’ was declared.
What they really hate, is the fact that ‘betas’ are banging them and moving on, when – according to their old world paradigm – they should be providing for them, and cleaning up after the ‘alphas’ have had their fun.
This is not a new sexual revolution per se; just the culmination of the one that started in the 1960s.
Funny how things work out sometimes, isn’t it?
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What goes around comes around…
Oh well….
SUCK IT, BITCHES!!!
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I have to admit that I’m not really intensely interested in this particular issue on a personal level.
That said, because Romano seems to be behaving as an activist, and her credentials give her words a certain veneer of authority (you can find someone with advanced degrees to validate any position), she’s worth arguing with publicly more than “Lady Raine,” who no one really cares about. While I have no interest in arguing with these women personally, it is not un-useful to have them show themselves for what they are. I’m often surprised by how many men I meet have managed to ignore feminists, hysterical anti-”rape” activists, etc. almost completely. So I guess there is some value in showing new readers that the hysterical sex-is-rape nutjob feminist didn’t die with Dworkin and these crazies are still out there, influencing policy as “experts.”
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“Mind Control Technique”, like seriously what the fuck?
She’s been watching too much Flash Gordon and has confused PUAs with Ming from Mongo.
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ROFLMAO!
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“In most cases, when someone goes home with a person they have just met, they do so at their own peril. If bad sex or a smirch on your reputation is the worst that happens, count your blessings. Consider the ramifications of your actions before you act, there is no RESET button.”
Well said, Max. One needs to take responsibility for one’s own actions.
“Game is just nerdy guys trying to get laid. It isn’t magic. It isn’t hypnosis. It certainly isn’t sexual assault. It’s just a game”
Yep, and guys have been playing these kinds of games since ” time immemorial” Women who succumb have no one else to blame but themselves. They have a choice .
They can say NO!!
Keep their legs closed, as B&G said.
Women who bleat about being seduced are, in my opinion being disingenuous, and undeserving of any sympathy.
Of course when SHE herself is the seducer it’s all okay then, lol!
Very good article Max. Full of good old fashioned advice and commonsense.
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Interesting points Snark; I agree LR and Denise are very interested in “leagues”. What women like them fail to mention is that they do not view any man as out of THEIR league.
I honestly believe women view themsleves as superior to “betas” and don’t like the slaves asserting that they are true people.
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Exactly.
And so, what reason should any man have to defend their “leagues” hierarchy?
What reason should they have to NOT smash it, and climb up and all over their “leagues” with Game?
Tar it, conflate it, criminalise it as they will – Game shall always exist, because it always has – what we call Game is simply a codification, a systematisation, of a set of practices which have always worked wonders on giving women ‘gina tingles’. Claiming that Game is a new creation is like claiming that gravity never existed before that apple fell on Isaac Newton’s head. Of course it did, and it was a fact of the world; it simply went unrecognised for a long time.
And more crucially, the knowledge was not widely disseminated. Now, more and more men are aware of Game, and are using it, than they should do, according to the traditional sexual and social hierarchy, according to which most men – the ‘betas’, if you will – should simply go without.
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@Snark:
Dang – well spoken BRO!
Especially the part about how the women want the beta males to “clean up” after the alpha’s have had their fun – truer words were never spoken.
@niko & zel
Flesh Gordon would have been better:
Ming the Horny from Planet Porno must have missed her when he aimed his sex-slave beam at earth.
I wonder if she would consider Ming’s rapist robots as being “alpha” males….
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The funny thing is, it is not possible for anyone to shut down Game, because a woman has no way to tell which guy is naturally charming, vs. which guy learned how to be that way relatively recently.
Hence, it cannot be shut down.
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Long before I ever learned a thing about game, I lived by a maxim:
“Never be mean to fat or ugly women. They may become lawyers.”
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if you’re looking to buy some pre-paid legal
you get 30 seconds of eye contact and one bottom-to-top glance without the scrotum-kick
now BUY BUY BUY! what kind of small-dick virgin loser living in their mom’s basement wouldn’t want pre-paid legal anyway?
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Z nailed it.
The stripper and the feminist, both hate the idea that a guy could really be not a “genuine” Alpha male. The Rolex fake, the car rented, the clothes on credit, the confidence a ploy.
That’s it. That’s all it is.
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This is the key issue.
The funny thing is that people who use Game, whether PUAs or not, are often, after they have been running it for a while, truly socially dominant and confident for *real*. It’s a learned skill for them, rather than a “natural” skill as it is for “natural alphas”, but it changes them nonetheless. So no-one is really being defrauded — it’s just that the guy was not a natural alpha. So what? If a woman is now 108 lbs but spent most of her teens and early 20s around 150-160, and eventually lost weight and so on, is she defrauding you by presenting as a thinner woman? Of course not. She did her stuff and she’s now different. Same for guys that have internalized Game — it becomes a part of who they are.
Sure, PUAs who are interested in pump&dump will use it in bars and clubs to get what they want. No surprise there. But it isn’t fraud at all. Any woman who sleeps with a guy she met at a bar or a club that same evening should well realize that she is likely getting pumped and dumped. Given the kinds of ladies who seem to frequent these places, the claim that these women do *not* know this, if true, would merely speak to their rank stupidity, to be honest.
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Jesus, LR posted here…
There’s a lot of hate mongering and projection going on in her post – lost cause, in any case. There’s someone so consumed by her solipsism its entirely pointless to try.
I actually think Game would help both men (increase their happiness via options) and women (increase their happiness via satisfied social dominance needs).
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Something weird has happened in my life recently. I have not been practicing Game per se, but I have internalized the idea that women aren’t worth anything to me if all they have to offer is sex. I am totally honest with them, and tell them that I have no interest in going home with them. I even offer them plenty of reasons they shouldn’t have anything to do with me, but they simply try harder.
I don’t have to lie at all. In fact, this radical honesty seems to intrigue them even more, and they keep prying to see if I am leading them on, which, curiously, I am not trying to do at all. They can pay me some attention and then flirt with all the other men around to try to get me to compete, and I just don’t care. It seems to strike them in the core of their identity that their (rather pathetic, admittedly) sexuality has no more effect on me than a TV ad for Burger King.
I don’t know whether one could call this Game or not, but in a way, I think it is. When a man’s sense of his own value has nothing to do with these women, his status appears to rise by an order of magnitude.
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@ Welmer: Rule No. 1: Be Indifferent.
Never ask for their attention.
. . . Asking is begging. Begging is contemptible.
That’s Welmer game.
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Basically PUA’s are a group of men who don’t understand that their IS such a thing as “your own leagueâ€. Some women ARE out of your league. Maybe because they’re wealthy, maybe because they really ARE a Supermodel, maybe just because you’re not as smart as she is…..she’s ALLOWED to be “out of your league†and ignore you.
No, women only exist in leagues based on physical appearance. PUAs don’t care if they’re wealthy or smart. The only reason a woman would think she’s out of a man’s league is because she’s used to being hit on due to her looks. PUAs change the game by showing her she’s not out of their league at all. She never was, she just thought so.
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I don’t know whether one could call this Game or not, but in a way, I think it is.
It is. This is one of the classic manifestations of Inner Game. It is one of the best types of Game for men over 35 or so.
It is also called ‘Spock Game’ : “It is not logical to me to give this female so much importance, when what she has to offer me really is not anything divine.”
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(you can find someone with advanced degrees to validate any position),
That is why turning Denise Romano Madam into a parody is both funny and effective. By all accounts, she was intellectually outclassed by Obsidian, a ‘blue colla brotha’.
- The Fifth Horseman, MS, MBA, PUA
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@Richard
“I wonder if she would consider Ming’s rapist robots as being “alpha†males….”
Well, having more than a few screws loose, its very possible she might. I am certain though, that Ming’s rapist robots would make her type very wet and burning with desire.
I understand, her type often have a bedside cabinet filled with VERY LARGE worn out sex toys. Its very likely, her type would see them as just an EXTENSION on a theme and respond with a Pavlov’s dog type response… wearing them out also(shrug).
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That’s interesting, Welmer. I was quite socially inept until my last 2 years of college when I gained a little bit of confidence and then very quickly learned how to interact in social situations and get women – though not really the uppity ones, who I never liked anyway. As I did so my confidence grew more and more and today I can talk to anyone on the rare occasion I do go out to a bar or club. I find very, very few women worthy of intimacy and usually grow bored very quickly so it’s not hard to telegraph disinterest.
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z:
This is why women hate game in my opinon:
Whiskey, a guy I dont always agree with, but a smart guy nonetheless, has stated why women hate game. He says women hate game because its a betrayal in evolutionary terms.
Women want the most dominant men—socially and physically if possibly, but socially is the more important of the two.
If loads of men are walking around confident and “loud-n’-proudâ€, women dont really know which one’s are the true alphas.
In the jungle (Ive watched some vids about primate behavior), the alpha male-orangutans, chimps, and baboons are established by the fact that they can “beat up†the other males (which often changes as they age and the other males will sometimes keep maturing physically and will re-challenge them). The alphas are simply the winners of these fights, and the females have the alphas laid out before them in this way with no difficult identification on their part.
With us humans out at bars, women look to see the men who are socially dominant. They dont realize it, but thats what they are looking for. Usually confidence is the thing that they are attracted to, and they “shit test†to see if its the real deal. Since Game makes many men confident, they hate it viscerally. Its a “betrayal†because the PUA might not be the big-man at the office and may not be a rainmaker monetarily and may not be feared by other men—-which is what they primally want to score for themselves whether they ever admit it or not. They are all about status. We as men know this is just ridiculous and generally treat each other as ostensible equals out of common courtesy (especially men who have been in the military or other postitive social organizations that emphasize mutual respect towards your co-workers, etc).
Lady Shitstain probably deeply resents the thought of some guy who isn’t an authentic captain-of-the-football-team alpha ever fucking her and her ilk.
This.
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Maybe “game” is just not giving a damn?
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Welmer, what you are describing is exactly what Dragnet said. Just with different intent!
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Nah. It’s about projecting self-confidence.
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When I was a stripling I used to have success by having no qualms about approaching women that might have intimidated other men. I suppose thatmight still work, but when you’ve had enough experience with those kinds of women very few others seem all that special to you at all anymore — particularly when you’ve seen first hand that some of the most beautiful, alluring women in the world are whores in hotels in Shanghai. More importantly, when you’ve had your life essentially destroyed by a woman, you learn to appreciate risk and weigh that against reward.
Here in my little town (Seattle), the girls are clumsy and awkward, and they get far more attention than they ever would in other places due to the preponderance of software engineer types who slobber over anything with a pair of breasts that gives them the time of day. I know from experience that if I had the money – and it wouldn’t take much – I could fly to Vladivostok and have my pick of women who would shame the local girls into dejected, envious silence. One simply has to put things into perspective.
As for the uppity women, let others pay for them — they are far more expensive than ordinary guys like you and I would want to maintain anyway. In fact, I grew up with these types. I went to a private school for a long time on a scholarship. With the vintage 1970s car I drove in high school and my middle middle-class family, I was treated like garbage by them. Didn’t take me long to figure out that better looking girls existed in the general population. The world’s a big place, and there are a whole lot of women in it. These wannabe princesses are fungible, whether they realize it or not. And now that I’m old enough to restrain myself, I think I’ll indulge in some freedom of choice.
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Gentlemen,
Don’t re-invent the wheel, there are a lot of materials than can speed up your learning curve. The things I see here, being discovered by men here, are well-established concepts known as :
*Inner Game (of a detachment sort)
*Be irrationally self-confident at all times
*Never be needy
*Assume that she has more to gain from you than you from her (which actually becomes true once you believe it).
I really want everyone to speed up their learning curves, where instead of taking 6 months to observe something, leverage the body of knowledge created by those before you who have observed the same things.
Charlemagne, in the middle ages, tried for decades to learn how to read and write. He managed to learn how to read at age 50, but could never write. He was still ahead of other kings of the time, most of whom could not read.
Why was it so hard for him, given his raw brainpower was no less than that of a modern leader?
Because there was no foundation of educational material that existed for even a king to access, that could speed up his learning curve.
At a smaller level, I see this happen often. Men don’t need to observe something for months or years to come to a conclusion, when all this has already been established, to save you time.
Read Roissy’s Sixteen Commandments of Poon
Read Mystery Method
Read : http://www.approachanxiety.com and http://www.ask-jdog.com
Shave months off your learning curve. Then either create mutually beneficial relationships with women, or just avoid women except for infrequent trysts. Either way is perfectly valid.
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These wannabe princesses are fungible, whether they realize it or not.
Wile E. Coyote moment.
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Indeed. The very basics of Game is self-confidence, everything else just gives a natural frame for creating sexual relationships. Is an adaptation to the Sexual Dystopia. Natural evolution, there’s nothing wrong with that.
@Snark
I think that the pictures are even more depressing, if such a thing is possible. And I need to put the Captain Obvious costume and say: The woman is batshit insane. Seriously.
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A reasonable-looking girl at a small university or in a small town can get a highly inflated idea of her own attractiveness. My first fiancee was like that. The college I was at in a rural university had very average-looking women. Even the most attractive would have been nothing special at the first university I went to, where there were some really fascinating women. But these quite ordinary women thought they were all Helen of Troy.
As for “Spock Game”, I think this can work well for introverts, providing they are reasonably attractive. I had four women ask me to bed when I was a young bloke, all of whom I turned down for various reasons. One was a stunning girl. I can’t remember why I turned her down. She must have wondered what went wrong. It was probably Catholic morality mixed with a fear that the girl would be trouble.
Women in my experience are not that interesting to talk to, and they are often trouble.
Actually there was a funny cartoon in a copy of National Lampoon I once read, years ago, which showed a man and a woman on a business trip. The man spends all his time talking about business in a boring way in a hotel room. Eventually the woman goes crazy and just about impales herself on him. An early depiction of “game”?
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@welmer – Check out my first post:
“We would have women crawling and bawling back to us, and begging for sex…
This is already happening…
I have actually met a few of these women.”
The reason – I tell them off too…
I say “f**k game” – I call myself a straight shooter – no B.S.
Most women honestly are not worth the effort of “game”. They truly are borish run-down tramps with too much feministic crud drilled into their heads.
Sure, its easy to get into the sack with them with “game” – but why bother?
I find myself getting much further with them when I just tell them to go away – they just get more interested.
I am actually being approached in lounges in the local casinos now too – by some real hot women too – I tell them to get lost, and they just get more interested.
I guess that I am getting “raped” alot lately
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“Its a “betrayal†because the PUA might not be the big-man at the office and may not be a rainmaker monetarily and may not be feared by other men—-which is what they primally want to score for themselves whether they ever admit it or not. They are all about status. ”
The problem there is that while you can fool some of the women all of the time and all of the women some of the time, you can’t fool ALL of the women ALL of the time.
A woman may be temporarily fooled into thinking you are Alpha, and hence sleep with you or even possibly date you for a few weeks or even months, but when she discovers that you are not Alpha, she will dump you.
So then we are back to Square One: women only giving their true loyalty and alliance to exclusively genuine Alphas.
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Yes, Richard, the best kind of Game is realizing that as a man, you have free will and a choice. It confounds the women, who are generally accustomed to men bending over backward for them.
I’d rather do without women than violate my principles. And if that’s what it takes, no regrets here. Their worth is vastly overinflated, and I can be happy without them.
If you need a woman, you aren’t a real man. How’s that for shaming language?
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Welmer:
If you need a woman, you aren’t a real man. How’s that for shaming language?
David: There is something in this. There are plenty of cultures in which women are only used by men for two things (sex and reproduction) and sometimes one thing only (reproduction).
To look at the classic bible story, God said of Adam that it was “not good that he should be alone”. Not impossible. Just “not good”. One could read this to mean that woman is desirable but not essential to a man.
According to the bible story, woman was made for man. That is the fundamental reason for her existence. Man has independent value. Woman is derived and secondary. You should all remember that, and stop overvaluing women and taking them so seriously, especially ridiculous specimens like “Lady” Raine and Denise Romano (two masters degrees and no doctorate).
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@ Vancouver
Which means bliss is awaiting those wymmyn, right? Because, you know, those Alphas are dying for those multitudes of women to commit themselves to them, being beta at heart and commitment-centric.
Also, you’ve probably never heard the joke: you can fool some people all the time, all the people for some time… these are pretty good odds.
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I don’t know if it’s wise for the MRA movement to overlap with the PUA community. How did this overlapping come about anyway? I see them fundamentally at odds with one another.
Natural Alpha men really don’t have to worry about “men’s rights”. PUAs are not social activists nor particularly “issue oriented”. They are mainly frustrated guys who spend their time figuring out “what women want” in order to get them into bed. When they get enough women into bed they can then start their own little PUA sub-cult complete with website subscriptions, DVDs, seminars, workshops, etc.
The MRA movement is something entirely different and consists mainly of single dad’s who have been short-sighted by the legal system. These men are family oriented, at least they are oriented toward their own children.
What’s the history here? How did the two groups even connect? I see no common ground.
DAVID, not everyone here is a Christian nor believes in Bible stories.
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Vancouver
I don’t believe in those bible stories in a literal sense. I offer them as interesting metaphors for some of the issues being considered here.
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Coercion? Manipulation perhaps, but coercion???
Ignoring someone for a while and then saying something to pique their interest/get a rise out of them is psychological conditioning?
Please cite relevant laws to prove this dilly of an assertion. ‘Deception’ (of which there are various degrees of severity) equals ‘duress’ and ‘non-consent’. Saying you’re a doctor when you’re a janitor to get laid is duress? What does it say of the woman involved who can have instant sex with a doctor but not a janitor? It looks to me like their own greed is working against them. If they wanted to stay out of trouble they could NOT sleep with anyone who approaches them, wait until they got into a relationship before they jumped in the sack, but hell, that’s just too much to ask. When they find out the guy is really a janitor , of course they don’t get mad at themselves for screwing somebody because they see an ‘in’ to a lifestyle they want, but blame it all on the man. Of course. You’re saying that women are not required to take responsibility for their own actions. Fool me once, and all that….you’d think they’d smarten up!
And that’s what turns you on……’just comeuppance’ for all those guys out getting sex with young women.
I’m surprised that the authors of all those PUA books haven’t been arrested if what you say is true….they are after all inciting men to commit behaviour that will land them on the sex offender’s registry, according to you.
We’re not talking robbery here, we’re talking about one night stands and the like.
I don’t think the type of women who respond to the above are those who
wait for a kiss until the third date……
What part of these men not wanting long term relationships anymore are you just not getting?
And you’re the one who gets to decide which is which. You are admitting here that you and your daughters are not smart enough not to fall for PUA tactics? Evidently, as you’d rather have PUAs dead than on the same planet with you….they seem to constitute a severe threat to you.
You ARE for equal imprisonment for female abusers, sexual deviants I hope, as well as women who commit crimes, women who lie about who their babies’ fathers are, women who cheat on their husbands, women who sleep with high-school aged boys (or younger!).
Women who use The Rules are practicing deception…..’don’t call him back, he’ll wonder if you’re interested, it will drive him crazy’ Onto the sex offender registry for all women using The Rules! Ditto for those with breast implants, heavy make-up, push-up bras, shape-changing underwear, it’s all deception.
The long and short of it is, men and women have been playing games to flirt and seduce each other longer than either you or I have been on this good earth. To suddenly pounce upon it like it’s something to come out of the blue and declare it a danger to mankind just makes you look awfully stupid. Go talk to some elderly people and learn what proper flirting is. To call PUA tactics “mind control” is patently ridiculous and makes you either a hysteric or a troll.
A little estrogen supplementation might make you feel better.
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How about if someone create a website with all of Lady Raine’s anti-Semitic quotes, for her employer and all future employers to see, and point out Denise Romano’s associations with this anti-Semitic and sociopathic troll?
Denise Romano is fully endorsing this witch’s Jew-baiting.
In the real-world there are consequences to saying the things Lady Raine has said, and to associate with people like her who make such inflammatory comments — or comments that incite hatred and discrimination.
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Has anyone been saving Lady Raine’s racist and anti-Semitic comments? Someone should save them and archive them, and post them up to show her true colors.
Why is Denise Romano not saying anything about these inflammatory comments? Why is she associating with an anti-Semite?
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To the writers at Spearhead:
Could you make an article detailing ALL of LR’s anti-Semitic comments, and ask the big question:
Why is Denise Romano associating with this racist?
This needs to be gathered up and published.
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Easy. After millenia of women teaching each other seduction strategies (see Cosmo: “The six moves that will make him crazy for you”), women are scared and angry of men starting to learn some seduction strategies of their own. This threatens the traditional absolute female control of the mating game.
It is easier for women if they have to tame manginas and white knights who think women are sugar, spice and everything nice. These chumps are easy to manipulate and have been for millenia and women can mold them like they are putty.
With game, men learn the true nature of women. This gives power to men and levels the playing field. So it is not that easy to land a man by using a couple of trite, worn-out female tactics. Women have to work a bit more and showing a bit of flesh and playing hard-to-get is not enough.
This angers women. They want to have a nuke in the mating war and want us to have a knife. Now, we are building our own arsenal and we are not giving a damn about their shaming language and their rape claim.
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Vancouver,
see them fundamentally at odds with one another.
You couldn’t be more wrong.
First, you are conflating ‘Game’ with being a ‘PUA’, when in fact most of it is not devoted to being a PUA.
So you first have to go learn what The Venusian Arts (Game) really are. At the moment, you do not.
The second reason you are extremely wrong is that you think rights for fathers can be achieved without fighting off ALL of feminism. It cannot. Feminism is a hydra, and even reforming divorce laws merely will cause expansion in cohabitation laws/palimony, and taxpayer support of single mothers.
Game in ONE of the things that kills misandry, because misandry requires men to sustain the system. Game is very powerful in getting men to starve the system because the process of doing so is FUN.
ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A PUA TO USE GAME TO STARVE FEMINISM. But above all else, Game teaches men how women think. What they do with this knowledge is up to them. Avoiding women entirely is a legitimate choice even after learning Game.
So you really have to think much, much more about this.
What’s the history here? How did the two groups even connect? I see no common ground.
Again, far too shortsighted and unimaginative an opinion.
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Remember that even a small number of men (under 10%) learning Game totally disrupts the sexual marketplace.
This is why even Moderate Game Competence (defined by me elsewhere) is worth $2 Million or so.
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What does “disrupting the sexual marketplace” have to do with the legal rights of fathers?
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Whiskey said:
That’s certainly possible, but I’ve always had an alternative theory about the motivations of women who criticize the seduction community at length on the internet. The type of woman who writes long missives on gender politics on the internet is not representative of the population of women. She may well have atypical preferences in men, and be genuinely mystified by the experiences that PUAs describe with women. These women project their atypical psychology onto other women, and they have no idea what most men are actually dealing with.
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I have to admit, I’ve been guilty of that kind of thinking in the past. It’s very difficult to come to terms with the fact that you’re different. Partly it’s fear, and partly it’s egotism (thinking everyone else would come around to your way of thinking if you could just find the right words) and partly it’s the forlorn hope that maybe, one day you’ll fit in.
Then I said screw it, I’ve been different all my life, too late to change now.
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Lady Shitstain probably deeply resents the thought of some guy who isn’t an authentic captain-of-the-football-team alpha ever fucking her and her ilk.
@z
What do you mean by this, Z???
I totally disagree — Lady Shitstain doesn’t care just to fuck the ‘captain-of-the-football-team’….
No no no.
She wants to fuck THE WHOLE FOOTBALL TEAM — and the coach as well.
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Vancouver,
What does “disrupting the sexual marketplace†have to do with the legal rights of fathers?
You are going to have to connect far more dots of the big picture before a meaningful discussion can be had.
Until ‘feminism’, aka misandry is weakened, there will be no rights for fathers. Thus, any and all things that weaken misandry, from Game to Islam to future VR sex technologies, have an indirect role to play in weakening misandry. Until misadry is weakened, there will be no improvement in the treatment of fathers.
What you are asking is like asking “How does ending corn subsidies reduce US healthcare costs?” or “How does dumping less mercury in the ocean improve my chances of avoiding brain damage?”.
If you really want to know, read this whole thing :
http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html
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As the MRM and Game becomes more popular there’s going to be resistance from the male haters like the two sociopaths you’re talking about in this comment section. It’s not going to be smooth sailing, so we should expect more of this, especially when more female supremacists in academia and the media catch on.
I’m not surprised they’re already throwing the word “rape” around. They sunk to that level early! It’s going to be a tough fight. They have academia, the media, and general popular culture on their side.
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Also, since a woman has no capacity to distinguish between a smooth (non-novice) practitioner of Game, and a man who is just naturally good with women…..
Any attempt to shut down Game by ramping up false rape hysteria will snag more innocent Betas than it will any Gamers or natural Alphas…
We see this already. To my knowledge, no one in the Game community has ever been caught in a false rape charge. This despite many of them being highly visible…
While average Beta guys get snared quite often.
So, feminists really are going into an overreach that will create a hundred Sodinis and OJ Simpsons even while no PUA gets in trouble, if they try to actually shut down Game through the legal system.
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I like to think of game in terms of Darwin’s natural selection. Women who are interested in a relationship with a man of substance will do their best to protect themselves from falling victim to the techniques employed by PUA, avoid being so inebriated that they are unable to make good decisions, and of course – won’t be out looking for a “good man” in a bar.
I also wonder if Denise realizes that there is such a thing as “personal responsibility”.
Some seduction is going to be necessary, I just disagree with the order in which PUAs have placed it into the time schedule.
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“Also, since a woman has no capacity to distinguish between a smooth (non-novice) practitioner of Game, and a man who is just naturally good with women…..”
That may be, but we all know what women want in men and if they are found to be fakers, they will get pumped and dumped.
A short, nervous, socially awkward, office peon making under 100 k annually, with no assests such as property and no immediate prospects of moving up the food chain MAY be able to “act alpha” for a few weeks. However, once the woman gets to know him and his real lifestyle, she’s outta there.
She will resume her search for the authentic Alpha male.
The only way an AFC can become a “natural” is by acquiring the traits of a real Alpha such as fame and money. This was accomplished by Neil Strauss.
So rather than spending money on attending OTHER guys’ workshops and buying their products and spending one’s free time in bars, it’s a better bet to come up with one’s own theories, write a book and get a marketing deal.
That will at least put you in genuine Alpha league.
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msexceptiontotherule,
You should make a bigger distinction between ‘PUAs’ and the entirety of Game.
Men who use Game but are certainly not PUAs are Obsidian, Hawaii Libertarian, and others.
PUAs are just a subset of Game, concentrated among under-30 practitioners, and those selling seminars and coaching.
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“I also wonder if Denise realizes that there is such a thing as “personal responsibilityâ€.”
Let’s face it with Madame Romano: This is a highly personalized vendetta that she has against men in general.
I think she even said so much over at Insane Lady Vaine’s blog.
She is an envious malcontent, a sexualized one at that — the most dangerous kind.
I noticed that when I was in grad school that the place was absolutely full of these pseudo-Marxist man and Western Civ haters, who were oh so bitter that they were rarely asked out on dates, or pursued for serious relationships.
This is often what motivates many of these types of “women” in pursuing careers in academia, where they can further spread more of their misandric Marxist poison to younger generations of females.
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Kulak – they probably hang out with the women who want to adapt the coursework in every subject so that it is presented from a female perspective – which is ridiculous. Part of courses like, for example, philosophy – which usually covers the Greek classical philosophers to some degree and almost exclusively in the intro level – is in learning to understand from the point of view that these men had, how they reasoned, why they arrived to the conclusions that they did, and so forth. If the women’s studies department begins to invade other academic divisions, it’s not empowering it’s making women in general seem like they are incapable of understanding anything without it being spoon-fed to them.
The 5th:
I stand corrected. Perhaps it was the overwhelming irritation that I experience any time I read that woman’s name, or the urge to show up where she’s at and smack her with my shoe when I read more than 1 sentence of her crap. I’m rather unimpressed with the retold version of her role as a whistleblower, her credentials mean nothing, and if she has the time to team up with LR she can’t be all that successful now can she?
Anyway, for non-pua men who use game, to what extent are they doing so, and are they looking for 18-24 y/o women, endless sexual conquests, and so forth? Or is it truly about learning to talk to women while looking for the right one to settle down with when they’ve sowed their wild oats and are ready to commit to just one woman?
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Not all men who use “game” want to pick up women. All I want to do is get my wife in line. So far, this is working brilliantly. She will never admit it in a million years, but I can see that she is liking it, consciously or unconsciously. In fact, tonight, when I did something less game-like than usual, she seemed disappointed.
It’s really quite plain and simple. Put it like this: when women say they don’t want dominant men, they are lying. This is true of unmarried and married women.
As we keep being advised by the experts: stop listening to what women say and start watching what they do.
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“There is no “Gold Diggers Club†out there teaching women to use mind control on men to “get to the money quickerâ€. No boot camps, seminars, or books dedicated to celebrating that. ”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
The entirety of female existence is a “gold digger’s club”, the knowledge of how to “get to the money quicker” has probably been handed down from mother to daughter for millennia. In the past, it was knowledge about homemaking. Obviously, only a man with money had a home to “make”, so women taught their daughters that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach” and “a woman’s work is never done”, and THOUSANDS of other such proverbs about ingratiating oneself with a wealthy man and then taking advantage of his affection in order to get his money.
Men NEVER gave any such advice to their sons. In fact, they mostly encouraged their sons to facilitate the would-be gold-diggers by telling them to “do the right thing” and marry a pregnant woman, or get a good job with a high salary to provide for a woman.
The reason these two broads are all worked up into a lather over this is that PUA’s and gamesmen break up womens’ monopoly on the sexual marketplace. These broads are scared shitless that the average guy might be able to get pussy whenever he wants and that they can’t rely on the Visa between their legs to be rubberstamped by Joe Beta when they get tired of playing “Career Woman”.
Well, fuck you,Madam. You are not the lifeguard of the gene pool,
you don’t decide who fucks who. YOU’RE the ones who wanted to be “equal” to men so I don’t give a RAT’S ASS if your pussy is no longer the gold mine it used to be. That goes for both these bitches.
-Dave out
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As many people have pointed out here, this pathetic skank Romano is getting far too much attention on this blog.
But anyway …….. For her and LR, I can assure them that when I pump and dump, I do not give the slightest thought to a woman’s hurt feelings.
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I have known many women who behave well and who are kind and helpful. It is only when they get above themselves that they become a problem. Women are fine in their place.
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How can you be certain that anyone is an expert from reading text? We’ve read what Romano has to say and at least as far as I’m concerned, she’s an expert in regurgitating material from outside sources – if that.
In any case, Romano doesn’t have a legal leg to stand on and I wouldn’t send anyone I hated to her for relationship counseling, let alone someone who really needed advice.
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Anyway, for non-pua men who use game, to what extent are they doing so, and are they looking for 18-24 y/o women, endless sexual conquests, and so forth? Or is it truly about learning to talk to women while looking for the right one to settle down with when they’ve sowed their wild oats and are ready to commit to just one woman?
—————————————————-
Game is about learning how women think, and using this knowledge to become attractive to them, AND learning how to not fall into traps that most men fall into.
What a man chooses to do with this knowledge, with women of what age, for what duration, and whether with one or many of them, is up to him.
————————————————–
I am not sure why there is a recurring belief that Game is some form of ‘magic’ that works on young women in bars, but not slightly older women in a relationship context.
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5th: I wouldn’t really know either way, due to being married and then a widow for just over a year. This is why I ask questions about such matters. It may surprise people, but I actually ask them because I seriously want to know the answer.
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Z is spot on. Very accurately. Novaseeker’s remarks are also true.
I was in the original fastseduction.com forums since 2004, and run a seduction website (in spanish language). I am in the “natural seduction” school as opposed to the indirect, canned routines methods (favorite writers are Juggler, Vin DiCarlo and Zan Perrion) and as such, I’ve always been very open about the whole affair, and I’ve (almost) always told my girls about all the seduction thingy, with varied results, but with one thing in common:
* girls utterly despise guys who try to use “tricks” to sleep with them
* girls are attracted – to a certain degree – to guys who try in many ways to improve themselves, beause it shows a great deal of initiative and potential – unless the guy is still too early in the learning curve, where he’s still a wannabe.
In nature, both males and females resent males who pretend to be alpha. I saw an experiment where they painted some male birds with black spots – a sign of alphaness in that species – and at first other males were respecting the new alphas… once they found out the spots were actually ink, they attacked viciously the fake alphas.
That’s why I always recommend to try to improve in every aspect of your life. Being ripped from the gym cann0t be fake (well, unless you’re into ‘roids, which is not recommended). Being naturally social cannot be faked (routines are spotted from a mile away). Being culturally savvy, self-confident… all of this cannot be faked. In fact, if you have an impressive career, or a huge bank account, it’s even better to hide this fact, that way you screen out golddiggers
and if you find a quality girl (hey I live in Spain, we still have some of these here 
, she’ll be more impressed if she finds out about all of that later on.
The proper way for a guy who wants to become better in game is to first focus on the basis: self-confidence, physique and fitness, inner game, sociability and so on. The rest will almost take care of itself in a natural way.
Cheers,
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The Fifth Horseman:
“I am not sure why there is a recurring belief that Game is some form of ‘magic’ that works on young women in bars, but not slightly older women in a relationship context.”
David: Precisely. It is useful in preventing yourself from not being driven nuts yourself by the insanity of the typical wife. It can be used in a purely defensive way.
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Good explanation, thank you. You’re right, both Game and PUA tactics are being mixed together on this thread (by myself included). I understand what Game is better now. I could be wrong, but I think this is the stuff my father’s and grandfather’s generation knew….and it got wiped out by the last 40 years of fem-think.
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Well, fuck you,Madam. You are not the lifeguard of the gene pool,
you don’t decide who fucks who. — Dave
LOL!
That’s a phrase I’m definitely going to appropriate for my own arsenal!
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The art of seduction (game ) is nothing new. Cassanova springs to mind
Wiped out? I don’t think so.
What HAS changed is women’s morals. No longer the gatekeepers, many are, just the skanky pump and dump types. So…. men have adapted accordingly and are reeling them in hand over fist.
It is just so easy for them.
Women reap what they so.
A decent girl with morals and principals would not fall for that crap. Sadly they are few and far between.
The world’s goin’ to hell in a handbasket alright.
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It is a very good quote, and one which should be trumpeted.
Because it shows once again the totalitarian mentality of these people – wanting to pigeon-hole people into ‘leagues’, and to deny that they should step out of their own. It absolutely reeks of the same kind of fear that led to anti-miscegenation laws. These people are so arrogant that they want to dictate to the entire human race whom may sleep with whom, because people apparently can’t decide that for themselves.
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Aw shoot! SOW!! NOT SO.
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I sense something other than arrogance. I think it is fear. The less a woman has to offer a man which might entice him into a relationship with her, the more she fears that he might find some other woman attractive and succeed with her – (“Do you think she’s prettier than I am?”)
These people have such unpleasant personalities that they only way they will have any prospects for anything other than a pump&dump is if they can find a way to restrict men’s access to a better quality of woman than they are.
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>>Most men of honor that are anywhere from 20-40 and are intelligent, successful, attractive, honest, respectful, etc still open doors and take a woman on at least 3 dates before he even tries to kiss her. That’s what you SHOULD do. A “nice girl†wouldn’t GIVE YOU anything before that.
If you were young and attractive, would you go for that?
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I agree, zed – but the fear prompts their desperation, which leads to indifference and anger towards the men who might just choose ‘something better’, which makes them aggressive and arrogant enough to feel entitled in dictating who may sleep with who.
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According to the bible story… You should all remember that, and stop overvaluing women and taking them so seriously
This. Women are meant to be your partners, not the center of your whole universe.
I don’t believe in those bible stories in a literal sense. I offer them as interesting metaphors for some of the issues being considered here.
Agreed. The Bible and other sacred scripts and writings contain the wisdom of the ages. We can all learn something from them.
You should make a bigger distinction between ‘PUAs’ and the entirety of Game.
Pro-Game, anti-PUA here. Guys with Game make more attractive husbands and better fathers (have you ever noticed that men who can’t keep their women in line tend to have rowdy kids, too?). All men should learn Game, if they mean to interact regularly with women. Actually, Game is probably useful in interacting with other men, as well.
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now Suzy Screw had a partner named Sasha
Thumper
I remember her number like the summer
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I sense something other than arrogance. I think it is fear.
Yeah, there’s definitely an element of fear. Not just of being left for “something better”, but of becoming irrelevant. All they have is their physical attractiveness and once they lose that, they have nothing.
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They do seem to feel entitled to try to dictate who may sleep with who, but I’m enough of a jerk that I get a kick out of rubbing in their faces how impotent they are to force people to go along with their blather.
They know that they are at the bottom of the barrel in terms of attractiveness, which is why they try to keep men from going for anything better. As B&G says, they are irrelevant, and the noise they make also seems irrelevant to me.
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>A decent girl with morals and principals would not fall for that crap. Sadly they are few and far between.
With all due respect, there’s no actual correlation between a girl having morals and principles and what is attractive to them. A man with morals and principles finds attractive the same women that a man without morals and principles does. Same the other way around. Attraction is not a choice.
However, choosing to act in that attraction, or not, is possible. But I think it falls more within the realm of impulse control than within the morals&principles field. For instance, golddiggers have a great deal of control on that, yet they have not much morals, do they?
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When you don’t care about a specific woman. She is yours. If you are a player so are all of her friends. It’s about that easy.
They get even more interested if you tell them you are going to visit a fuck buddy. Sometimes they even want threesomes. Even the good ones get corrupted, because if you truly do want a good mother and wife to build a family, the power the State gives them once you make this choice eventually corrupts them.
Lord Acton was and always will be right. The only solution is to not give them that power in the first place. It’s too easy to just get laid. Much like the law of marginal utility.
Ladies you have become marginal. Way to go.
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Here’s the crux of her objections – faux alpha men learning the methods to bed hot women.
Some PUAs have learned the secrets of women, big deal. Women aren’t that mysterious, after all. Men can easily learn how they think and act; then behave accordingly.
I also agree that Raine and Romero are projecting on to other women their own feelings regarding PUA. Those two are outliers and their wildly inflated egos lead them to believe that what the feel is what every woman should feel.
Newsflash – PUA works on the vast majority of women. I urge all men to learn it, though not necessarily to use it.
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Zed,
I agree, there is certainly an element of fear involved. I think it also has to do with the financial prospects of her female competition. If a rejected beta uses game he can meet lots of women and keeps his money or if he does marry, (perhaps someone younger) he can share resources with her. He is not available then and desperate when a used up woman will have him when she is 45. Not only is the “beta” not a retirement plan but also her competition gets access to the resources.
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“Agreed. The Bible and other sacred scripts and writings contain the wisdom of the ages. We can all learn something from them.”
There are many contradictions between sacred scripts, as well as within the same ones.
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“The less a woman has to offer a man which might entice him into a relationship with her, the more she fears that he might find some other woman attractive and succeed with her – (“Do you think she’s prettier than I am?â€) ”
The same applies in the reverse. This is why so many lower betas are using game strategies to appear higher beta or alpha, in order to keep women away from the real higher betas and alphas – men who have high social, economic and cultural standing. (“do you think he is more alpha than me?”)
The best advice for BOTH men and women is to actually do something with your lives and make something of yourselves so that you will have more to offer each other than just your genitals during a dry period.
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An aura of confidence, a swagger, good jokes, cool clothes, these will do nothing to keep a woman with you beyond more than a few weeks unless you have the real social standing and financial assests of a higher beta at least. So start working on that if you want to garner LTR prospects. If not, and you fine with women seeing you as nothing more than a punp or dump, jump off, one night stand, or at most, ONE of their boyfriends until they find “the one”…. keep doing what you’re doing.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/20/dont-hate-the-player/#comment-22932
We can either accept the truth and go from there, or continue living in a fantasy.
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‘Wiped out’ in the sense that a lot of men don’t seem to be learning it from their fathers or brothers. Perhaps it’s just that what I’m reading on the internet ( I don’t live in the US) isn’t reflective of what’s going on in society at large, but I see so many young men saying that the first time they hear of these ideas about how women think, it’s on the net.
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@Vancouver
There it is that “Game can’t be used for LTR” lie again. Yes is a lie. Read Hawaiian Libertarian (his blog is on the front page links) , he applies Game to his marriage and he is doing much better than many men with wives from hell. You aren’t the first one to try that argument.
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Go search “nice guy” in wikipedia. Fairly interesting stuff. Fair amount of conflicting studies, but I attribute the studies refuting the phenominon to be feminist driven.
I liked this one the most:
“Bogaert & Fisher (1995)[13] studied the relationships between the personalities of university men and their number of sexual partners. They found a correlation between a man’s number of sexual partners, and the traits of sensation-seeking, hypermasculinity, physical attractiveness, and testosterone levels. They also discovered a correlation between maximum monthly number of partners, and the traits of dominance and psychoticism. Bogaert & Fisher suggest that an underlying construct labelled “Disinhibition” could be used to explain most of these differences. They suggest that Disinhibition would correlate negatively with Agreeableness and Conscientiousness from the Big five personality model.”
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QFT women don’t exist without men and vice-versa
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Vancouver, you seem to be running under two large, faulty assumptions:
1) That money is the primary distinction between who is alpha and who is beta.
Alpha and beta are distinguished purely by social behavior (and not cultural or economic standing). Wealthy betas can and do exist–but they often have problems in their relationships with women, since there is often a gross mismatch in social skill.
2) That people learning and using Game are primarily poor.
Among other problems, if this were so, they would be unable to afford those expensive seminars. No, the primary consumers (and I say this without any actual market data, so it should be taken as merely a collection of anecdotal data from people’s self-identification) of the ideas of Game are reasonably well off geeks, who have had little success in their previous social endeavors (despite success in other realms of life).
I suspect, though I cannot guarantee, that these issues come from you belonging to that same demographic, and seeing many guys less well off than you achieve greater success with women (which you have insisted is short term) , and thus assuming that these guys are the ones learning and using Game. This is a half truth–it is certainly possible that they are learning Game, but it is much more likely that they are some combination of Naturals and people who have learned some fraction of Game through personal experience.
Your disdain for their behavior and their personal choices does not alter Game’s effectiveness, in both the short and long term. Game is fundamentally about giving women what they actually want instead of what they say they want (there may, of course, be exceptions for whom this is not the case), and your opinion is either a tiny fraction of that collective (if you are female), or entirely irrelevant (if you are male).
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GX1080, I never said “game” cannot be used in LTRs. What I said is for men who are not in LTRs, “game” is not going to help you get into one UNLESS you already have your life together to the extent of “higher beta” or close to.
Game was designed to illicit sexual attraction in the opposite sex – quickly.
That sexual attraction is NOT going to last unless you have something to offer beyond d*ck.
I know some men read MM, The Game and other books and extrapolate tips that can help them manage their LTRs. But make no mistake, that is NOT what these books were written to do. That some things overlap is a given with almost any subject.
No amount of kino-escalation is going to cause a woman to stay with you longterm if you are poor and your standard of living is less than her’s.
Outliers notwithstanding.
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Neither men nor women should kow-tow to the other, rather cooperation and division of labor based upon skills and talents works best in a relationship. This can not be achieved in the current environment. Whenever a man enters into a relationship with a women, he also enters into a relationship with her ally (whether she consents or not) the state.
The state is a monopoly on force. It backs the woman in most cases. One man alone can never win against the state. Men are realizing this and not committing. Women are flabbergasted. The solution to our problem is to take the state out of the equation, then men and women can once again come to agreeable terms.
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@Suigintou
Depends on how hawt the dude is.
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If there is truth that the most Alpha men get the hottest women, and that leaves both less hot and less Alpha (in any way) men and women to each other, there is no disparity. If on the otherhand non-Alphas want to compete with Alphas for the hottest women, or the less hot women want to compete with hotties for the Alpha males, they need to be ready for a cut-throat, dog-eat-dog environment. And at the end of the day there is no guarantee that you will be accepted into either “league”.
If you can’t stand the heat, get outta the kitchen.
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Vancouver, you are ignoring the soft polygamy side…these people are not pairing up one to one, they’re “pairing” one guy to several girls (each of whom is involved with one guy at a time, usually). In this way, a small fraction of the men are rotating through a large fraction of the women, and the remainder are left largely looking on fondly and wishing they could be a part of it (but on their own terms).
Also, no one here is afraid of not being accepted into those “leagues”; the point of Game is just in systematizing how to do it.
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“…or the less hot women want to compete with hotties for the Alpha males, they need to be ready for a cut-throat, dog-eat-dog environment. …”
If only Insane Lady Vaine, who is a physically and psychologically repulsive Untermensch, would understand this.
Memo to whores: All the attention whoring in the world will not get you a relationship with a high status male — it will only get you a pump-n-dump — since, sadly, most men will have sex with nearly any woman, not just attractive ones.
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/10/04/to-all-the-pretty-young-things-by-alpha-unit/
This is men’s fatal flaw — casting his pearls before swine women — and this must stop if civilization is to be saved.
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But you can’t force women who do not want to be with you, to be with you. And who would want to be with someone they know deep inside doesn’t really want to be with them?
I guess your best bet IS game, convincing a woman that instead of the natural Alpha, who she really wants is you. But once she finds out she’s been “duped” – there will be hell to pay.
I’m not telling you something you don’t already know.
Reincarnation is often a user-friendly and upwardly-mobile transmigration.
What you aren’t in this life, you can be in your next.
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Except, of course, for when it is. Because, y’see, some of us actually do not fit into your restrictive little box. Some us actually do have meaningful control over our emotional conditions. Some of us, in short, actually do get to choose to be attracted or not to some people.
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Vancouver, your recurring assumption that lifetime committed partnerships with women are superior to serial temporary relationships is unjustified. Increasing numbers of informed men are questioning and rejecting that traditional belief all the time.
Marriage is not just a contract between a man and a woman; it is also a contract between a man and a woman one one side and a community on the other, and not only is there a lack of women worth committing to, but an increasing lack of communities worth committing to as well.
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Vancouver- Yes, women mostly want the “real-alpha” but those alphas have so much choice available to them that they choose young, fertile and hot women. Also, many “real” alphas pump n’ dump so the women that do get them have limited access. The truth is, most women who say they are too good for this or that guy are delusional. Game seems to be in part a response to the typical woman’s over-inflated value.
So while many men may be pretending to be more than they really are, this may be because they were rejected by women who were pretending to be more than they really were.
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Acksiom, I have no problem at all with men or women who are polyamorous or seek to have seriel STRs, one night stands or what have you.
But there seems to be an assumption here that a woman should not trade a man in for a better model (genuine alpha) if she has the oppurtunity.
Game for one night stands and STRs is fine, as long as there are no expectations that a woman should want you for anything more than that if you do not meet her standards, whatever those standards may be. She is within her rights to trade you up for what she is truly looking for, especially if you tried to give her the impression that you were that, when you weren’t.
And of course the same holds in the reverse, that goes without saying.
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The natural Alpha is the one who instinctively engages in social dominance…from the perspective of the woman, there is no difference between successful use of Game and a natural Alpha. People with Game is exactly who most women want to be with, regardless of how or why they have Game; they just sometimes regret that decision later because it doesn’t help them pay the bills. PUAs are taking advantage of the fact that women’s decision making is not always (not generally?) in their own long-term self-interest, in the same way that cosmetics corporations, clothing vendors, and other sellers of non-essential goods take advantage of people’s warped sense of their own future utility for profit. This is not fraud; it is effective marketing (in order to be fraud there would need to be a good or service that did not perform as advertised; there are no guarantees of this sort on human relationships, only products exchanged for money).
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And why should a young, fertile and hot woman choose you over an Alpha?
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There is no such assumption (apart from those who would prefer she not do so after marrying the first guy).
The woman’s expectations are not the only inputs to that equation. Men get to decide when they’re done with the relationship, too. That said, a man who promises more and does not deliver is a liar.
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Marriage is a binding contract. Whichever party breaks it ought to be subject to the terms of dissolution as agreed to. Sadly, that is not the case.
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Vancouver- I didn’t say anything about myself in my other post, so your question makes little sense; having said that, I don’t expect anyone to want me over an “alpha”, but a woman who can’t get one is in no position to complain.
You imply by your use of terms such as “real-alpha” that all men are not equal in the dating arena; while this is true, not all women are equal to other women as well. I see no reason for women to complain about fake alphas when the real ones ignore them.
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Um, because she can’t?
Which is because alphas, in the sense that you’re using the term, don’t commit in the first place?
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There are advantages to a long term relationship with a woman. I could be facetious and say that any reasonably attractive man can bed a girl; but it takes a real master to get her to iron your shirts.
Sex is the easy bit for a female. Bearing your children is the real test of commitment. Many players set the bar too low.
I do see some problems with a lot of the men on this site, just a few. I do think that many men overvalue women. This is bad for men and women. Westerners, particularly Americans, have always placed a high value on women, expressing it differently at different times. But I think a lot of this has been based on polite lies.
The best women I have known, and I have benefited enormously from the kindness and services of women, have been women who are in their place. Women make excellent followers but in most cases they make bad leaders. I have known some good woman bosses, but it is telling that most surveys find that men and women prefer male bosses.
Even my mother-in-law knows this instinctively. She has always been polite and deferential to me. At times she has been positively servile. This is the proper feminine attitude.
With very few exceptions, women are not meant for headship, although they make excellent followers, helpers and supporters. In all the excitement over the failure of Martha Coakley in the American Senate contest, I have yet to see anyone point out the obvious – she is a woman, probably chosen as candidate because of her sex, and she performed in the characteristically inept way women in such situations often do. Another dud female is Mrs Clinton. Yes, there are exceptions, but the pattern is there. Men and women are really not interchangeable.
Game works because it is founded on a single truth – women are not men, they do not think deep down that they are men, and they do not want to be taken as seriously as a man. They want to be treated as women, in the traditional sense. This gives them comfort and satisfaction.
People are always happiest when they are behaving in accordance with their true nature.
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(Zed)
I agree entirely. What next? ‘Are PickUp Artists Rapists?’ as part of the new Male Studies curriculem? If we’re going to give this psychopathic bitch exposure let’s do it properly and display her e-mail address here so we can all spam her with angry rants of our own.
I know there have been some crazy feminist laws introduced recently in places like France and Mexico, but there is NO immediate danger of rape legislation being broadened to cover pick-up artists. Giving her so much exposure might just serve to validate her argument as something worthy of debate.
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David, take a listen to this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOQu07i2zuA
“man as leader of women phenomena works against MRA”
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I guess your best bet IS game, convincing a woman that instead of the natural Alpha, who she really wants is you. But once she finds out she’s been “duped†– there will be hell to pay.
There should also be hell to pay for a woman wearing a push-up bra, make-up, getting a perm, and dying her hair.
Btw, much make up, like rouge and lipstick, is designed to mimmick a woman in estrus, and is a direct manipulation of men’s sexual senses – as is highheeled shoes which makes her rear end mimick estrus signals.
Also, there ought to be hell to pay when the guy finds out that wedding cake does indeed affect sex drive.
But don’t worry, Betas are smart enough that in a few generations, they’ll learn game so well that they’ll breed all these bad traits out of the women, and into more docile and honest creatures.
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Vancouver
I’ll try to listen to that, but my PC is a bit slow at the moment. I think my daughter has been downloading some big files.
You only have to rule your own roost. To me, a man is the master of his domain. Ideally he becomes the boss at work and at home. But I don’t need to run a huge company and have scores of chicks on my dick; I just want a small team under me at work and one obedient wife under me at home. That is enough of a challenge to satisfy me.
I want enough game to keep my wife in line. That is all. And I have found that it works. Most of what women say is just random static. Once you realise that, you are on the path of wisdom.
A man controls his environment. Other men can control their environments. But we can always swap notes. I was thinking last night that in the absence of anything else, places like this are excellent ways for men to swap tips.
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As a male who frequents a few MGTOW blogs, I have to say this b.s. is precisely why I call myself “Switzerland” in the Battle of the Sexes. BOTH genders disgrace themselves!
JESUS CHRIST, Y’ALL! It’s to the point for me where in my wildly imaginative moments I think “I don’t wanna be associated with either gender. Therefore, I’m gonna go see a surgeon and become a non-gendered asexual (in both senses of the word). All my male equipment will be taken away, plus I’ll have a complete hormone purge so I won’t feel attraction to EITHER gender”. No, I not really going to do that…but it’s certainly to the point where I positively envy asexuals and people with VERY low sex drives (of either gender).
In the immortal words of J. Geiles
“Well, the Yanks hate the Reds
and the Greeks hate the Turks
I really hate to say it
but they’re ALL a bunch of jerks
Seems like everybody’s shakin’ cuz’ the big one ’bout to fall
I’m just trying to hold it steady while I piss on the wall”
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the analogy seems to rely on treating sex like an economic transaction.
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Vancouver,
There are still far too many flaws in your understanding of female attraction circuits, and Game.
Game is actually MORE valuable to a wealthy man, than a poor one, because Game enables him to retain his money.
Plus, independent of Game, you don’t seem to account for the fact that a bartender or drummer in a crummy bar gets laid more than a man who sold his Web 2.0 company for millions.
Ask lots of questions, but don’t lecture others until you get a better understanding of all this.
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Of course, that makes perfect sense.
Looks and sex appeal. Natural alphas.
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Vancouver:
Looks and sex appeal. Natural alphas.
…sex appeal which has as much to do with being a big fish in a small pond as it does having social calibration.
The “nerdy IT businessman” doesn’t stand a chance.
And how is this supposed to be a mark against Game again? I’m not seeing it.
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SES =/= Alpha
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but it takes a real master to get her to iron your shirts.
David, you are completely wrong. “a real master can get her to iron your shirts happily.”
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It is, indeed Fraud. You are attempting to extort a “good” or a “resource” from the woman by using “deception”.
Deception is considered an element that makes “consent” now “non-consent” or “consent under duress”.
Wearing a push up bra is NOT “intending harm with deception” because the woman is not using the push up bra to extort something from the person looking at her breasts.
The “deception” (fraud) element that PUA’s are using IS intended to extort/take something from the woman directly by using that deception/lie/fraudulent action. It’s used to gain sex. That is considered something a person “owns” and is also considered a resource/good that can be stolen/taken.
And for the rest of the people I hear shrieking about how the First Amendment Rights “must not matter to these ladies”.
The First Amendment does NOT protect against your “right to lie”. That is because of the same element: Fraud. You do NOT have the right to deceive and to lie and be protected by the Constitution OR the Law from prosecution FOR those lies.
Since “Fraud” is considered a “criminal act” in the United States, that is why the Constitution nor the Law will protect you if you are willingly using it against someone else to get something from them (like sex or money).
I don’t think it would be considered “rape” to defraud a woman into having sex with you, but certainly attempted sexual assault or sexual assault (in some states “sexual abuse” would be likely to).
Definition of what is NOT consent:
“The consent of the victim is not legally effective
and is not a defense if it is induced by (force)
(force which) ___) (duress) (duress which ___)
(deception) (deception which ___).â€
Note the “deception which ___”? That would be where the PUA techniques and coercion come into play. It would be something along the lines of “Deception which is used to intentionally extort sex/sexual favors that would be otherwise unwanted”.
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LR- You say it is fraud, but you don’t say how. Your argument appears to me to be a smokescreen. I really believe your problem is that “regular” guys will not be frustrated and then not be so willing to become “beta providers”.
The real issue peple have with game is the status of those who use it. The truth is, most women don’t have enough of their own status to question anyone else’s.
With game, men act like they have more status than they do, which is to counter they typical female behavior these days of acting like they have more status than THEY do.
My issue with those here who complain about “natural alphas” can’t actually get one, so there is no point in criticizing betas.
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The First Amendment does NOT protect against your “right to lieâ€. That is because of the same element: Fraud. You do NOT have the right to deceive and to lie and be protected by the Constitution OR the Law from prosecution FOR those lies.
Gee, by this standard, the whole US government and nearly every politician should be in jail as well. Doesn’t seem to stop them.
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Lying is not a crime.
Lying is not the same as fraud.
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Vaginas are not considered “goods” or “resources” under law, so no, it isn’t fraud.
Yes she is.
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Vaginas are not considered “goods†or “resources†under law, so no, it isn’t fraud.
What a princess — LOL.
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“Lady” Cumstain thinks claims to have nothing but contempt for PUA’s, saying they should have the book thrown at them legally and be charged with rape (RMLMFAO
).
However, this evil witch seems to have nothing but the highest respect for serial killers!?!
However, yes of course. I have always loved/studied Crime, Psychology, the Human Mind, and Law. All those things sort of invoke an interest in the other. I absolutely LOVE studying the Human Mind and especially the mind of a brilliant Psychopath or Sociopathic Killer. They ARE brilliant (most of the ones who get away with it for awhile at least) and if they weren’t already killers they’d be geniuses would could have changed the world. — LR, “Consent: What’s the Confusion?â€
You cunt, you are the type who would f-ck a serial killer, and you probably already did, many times over. It is garbage like you that rewards these satanic monsters.
Commentators like Whiskey are sooo right – you are against ‘game’ cause your concerned that you wouldn’t be getting the ‘real deal’ – a full bore psychopath like yourself.
You sub-human piece of shit, you are proving everything Roissy said about you (and your type of female) is 1000% TRUE. Fucking whore, raise your son rather than spending 24/7 online and leaving comments like this.
Guaranteed we are going to see you on the show ‘Snapped’ one of these days very soon.
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It is, indeed Fraud. You are attempting to extort a “good†or a “resource†from the woman by using “deceptionâ€.
What are you so worried over 0.02 cents for there, LR??
After all, that’s how much your “goods” are worth.
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Men need to extract sex from washed-up strippers, like a husband needs a parasite that can’t “cook” a friggin’ SANDWICH!
Jeez, Raine!
Single mom, saggy tits, cottage cheese ass, washed up face, ex-stripper, a hole in which a brontasaurus could lose it’s neck…
Better learn to make “cook” some sandwiches, or else what good are you?
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Fedrz,
That was absolutely toxic. Laughed my ass off.
Seriously, I think she is so pissed, because game just means that there aren’t all those lonely guys going to her strip club and sticking dollar bills in her panties (or maybe those are pennies). She’s losing money, that why she’s upset.
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David:
but it takes a real master to get her to iron your shirts.
Black&German:
David, you are completely wrong. “a real master can get her to iron your shirts happily.â€
David:
Actually, I have had my wife iron my shirts in bare feet! (It was hot.) And when we were young and naughty, I used to get her to iron them in a blouse and panties.
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‘lady raine’ is an anagram of ‘ride analy’
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minou999.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/the-dark-side-of-the-pua/#comment-16
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this is how it’s fraud:
response to a blogger:
Serious Issues With the MRA Extremist Groups Which Do Seem To Inform the PUA Industry:
1. Women are vilified as “gold diggersâ€, yet men are celebrated as “beauty diggersâ€.
2. The PUA language denigrates women and is abusive. Similarly the numeric rating system does the same thing. Additionally, the PUA language itself models how women’s feelings and needs are completely disregarded, minimized, mocked, denied, and circumvented – in short – she is merely a prop for his pleasure.
LMR = mocks, minimizes, and disregards her right to her own boundaries and decision-making capabilities
Bitch Shield: ditto
ASD (anti-slut defense) – ditto
Arbitrary target: when a man chooses to practice on a woman for his own game practice only.
Bait-hook-reel-release: this is pure manipulation, dishonesty, and immaturity
False disqualifiers and Negs: manipulative and abusive
and many more. I will do a future post focusing only on game language.
3. A woman who “keeps her legs closed†in order to discern if and when she wants to be sexual with a man is said to have her “bitch shield†up. Women’s rights and responsibilities to determine their own sexual boundaries are mocked, minimized, and insulted.
4. Gamers and MRAs do not WANT a level fair playing field with women; they ONLY want to have the upper hand and power over. Why not instead just learn to be more attractive, better men and partners? The information is out there from REAL psychologists. Game trainers are ENTERTAINERS who need legal disclaimers to remind you that they are NOT professionals. The “dating science†they claim to know is NOT science and is not ethical.
5. Women who freely choose to enjoy their sexuality as men do are also called sluts/whores/skanks, etc.
6. There is a complete lack of modern sex education and knowledge in both communities. Instead of teaching men that 1 in 3 women are raped; A PUA who studied with LoveSystems told me how he learned that 90% of women have rape fantasies.
7. There is an alarming lack of knowledge about how STDs are transmitted, how condoms do not protect from all STDs, and that women are much more likely to be infected with STDs than men are, simply due to anatomical differences.
Additionally, AROUSAL IS NOT CONSENT!!
Infidelity is ABUSE in every way: Emotional, Psychological, Verbal, Sexual and Physical. AND if a woman sleeps with you after you’ve been sexually unfaithful but she is not aware of the infidelity, that is Rape because if she did know of the infidelity, she would NOT sleep with you. The same is true if the genders are reversed.
This is how deception prevents anyone from making responsible decisions for themselves and why those who are intentionally deceived cannot be held responsbile for those decisions – only the person who is being deceptive is responsible.
8. There is tremendous anger and rage in the MRA community about laws that have given women the same rights as men. There seem to be a great many men who have been very hurt by experiences in their lives – yet instead of considering the myriad of causes for these hurtful events or outcomes, they have very conveniently chosen to blame either all women or the laws that give women the same freedoms men have.
There probably are legitimate issues that MRAs are angry about, and I’d like to learn more about those. However, it is hard to see past the “all women are evil†slogans that seem to plaster the more than 50 MRA sites I’ve reviewed in the last several weeks.
There is a pendulum swinging in culture around gender issues. Why swing to an extreme position? Why not step off the pendulum, realize that men and women have an enormous amount of common ground, and that issues of abuse, violence, infidelity, divorce, marriage, parenting, etc concern both men and women equally. There is no reason why women and men cannot work together to better understand and respect each others’ feelings, needs, perspectives, experiences, and positions while making it all much better.
9. There is a disturbing and intentional misuse of distorted cherry-picked theories from Evolutionary Psychology and other scientific disciplines in a desperate attempt to justify the maltreatment, abuse, and domination of women. This is outrageous and dishonest.
10. There are irrational and illogical arguments about men’s and women’s “natures†and what their “evolutionary hard-wiring†does. This is complete nonsense.
Isn’t it interesting that those who claim to believe this celebrate men’s infidelities, domination, and rights to behave in those ways, yet find other “natural†aspects of women to be things they can’t deal with:
body hair
the human body’s need to excrete
menstruation
a woman’s decision-making abilities
a woman’s critical reasoning skills
a woman’s boundaries to determine who she does and does not want to sleep with
etc.
Game teaches men to intentionally override, jam, disable, and disregard a woman’s natural decision making processes and awareness of her own feelings and needs so that they can get laid as often and by as many women as possible.
11. Men who have been angered by my characterization of Game as Unethical and Abusive keep shrieking that women are responsible for their own decisions.
Ah, yes, responsibility. A wonderful thing. How are you Gamers handling your responsiblity to respect the feelings and needs of women? You aren’t. You believe you have the right to influence a woman to sleep with you by any means necessary. Perhaps you’ll find this article of interest:
http://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/gazette/previousissues/56vol1/Part8
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot do whatever it takes to make sure you have the upper hand, advantages over the situation, and undue influence due to using tactics that are manipulative, coercive, abusive, and deceptive – AND THEN claim that you are not responsible for the outcomes and that women should use their better judgment.
Many of you have written to tell me “Game Worksâ€. Yes, it does BECAUSE it is using unethical methods of coercion.
12. Game seeks to defraud women of their rights and responsiblities to make fully informed decisions about whom they’re attracted to, who they sleep with, and who they date.
When a man lies or is in any other way deceptive about who he is, what he wants, and what his interest in her is, he is conning her, and she cannot make a sound decision, because he is misrepresenting himself.
Gamers are just like the Enron’s accountants and Madoff’s investment reports: they’re false – using false means to present a false persona with the goal of bedding as many women as possible with no regard for what the woman wants.
There is a reason that fraud is brought to both civil and criminal courts; Fraud causes EGREGIOUS HARM. Game teaches men to
defraud women by deceiving them.
13. Game does not teach the skills needed to be a healthy relationship partner. For those Gamers who seek girlfriends or wives, I hope you’ll try EI and NVC skill-development. Quality women are attracted to genuine human beings, not showmen who think they have to be someone they aren’t and who aren’t present because they’re always thinking of techniques, methods, and strategies to keep a woman on her toes.
Quality women do not want to be kept on their toes. They want a man who is the best man he can be – meaning he has worked on and healed any hurts he has suffered, he is doing the best he can with whatever his appearance is, he is well-mannered, he thinks rationally and uses critical reasoning skills, and he can handle the logistics of planning, co-planning or allowing her to plan a date.
In addition, he is a good listener, but he also has something to say. He is assertive but not aggressive or passive. He knows who he is, what he wants, and what he doesn’t want.
He is sexually intelligent, he understands that all women are different, and he wants to learn what pleases his partner sexually because he wants to please her as long as he doesn’t have a problem with her preferences. He understands a woman’s sexual anatomy and has read the following books:
She Comes First by Ian Kerner
The Guide to Getting It On
Getting Love Right by Terence Gorski
Boundaries and Relationships by Charles Whitfield
Anything by John Gottman
Coach Yourself to Success by Talane Meidaner
Anyting by Stephen Carter
When Love Goes Wrong by Ann Jones and Susan Schechter
Unexpcted Allies: Men Who Stop Rape by Todd Denny
The Macho Paradox by Jackson Katz
14. MRAs and PUAs are not using credible, reliable sources to back up anything they claim is true.
I have yet to see credible sources for the claims of how the female brain is different than the male brain in the ways MRAs and PUAs claim it is.
I find it fascinating that the MRAs and PUAs have chosen to ignore the ongoing evolution of the human race that is happening NOW and instead focus on the way things were when we were all living in caves, or when women were still legally the property of their husbands, or when women did not have the right to vote.
15. MRAs and PUAs do not seem to have the most basic understandings of what abuse is, and the distorted and false theories they espouse all justify the mistreatment and abuse of women, even going so far to say that this is how women WANT to be treated. This is false.
16. For those of you who are on a Marriage Strike, please remain there. Though you do realize that you have a responsibility to reveal that to women whom you date or are in relationships with.
Ethical Issues with “Gameâ€:
In The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women into Bed, there are a number of ethical problems:
1. The subtitle is predatory and completely focused on using women sexually.
2. There are completely false statements made throughout the book as though they are scientific fact, when they are not:
 “Nature will unapologetically weed your genes out of existence if you don’t take action and learn how to attract women now.†(p.xiiii).
 “This is why I am privileged to share with you more than ten years of experience in the science of social dynamics and the art of the cold-approach pickup.†(p. xiv).
 Casanova, who allegedly “enjoyed erotic liaisons with 122 women during his travels across Europe†is celebrated. (p. 1).
 Women’s “value†is entirely based on physical appearance and is rated on a degrading numeric scale. (throughout the book).
 Despite Mystery’s “Statement of Ethicsâ€: “Mystery protégés focus on attraction first, not seduction. Ethically, they are attractors, not seducers†(p. 44), the book contradicts this by routinely advising men how and when to seduce women. Mystery includes the definition of Seduction:
 1. To persuade to disobedience or disloyalty
 2. To lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises
 3. To carry out the physical seduction of; entice to sexual intercourse

 The marketing of “Game†to men is unethical in that terms such as “algorithmsâ€, “the science of courtshipâ€, “dating scienceâ€, dynamic social homeostasisâ€, “rewiring her attraction circuitryâ€, “dynamic social intuitionâ€, “replication valueâ€, “survival valueâ€, “backward rationalizeâ€, “anti-slut defenseâ€, “decimal rating scaleâ€, “calibrationâ€, “internalizationâ€, “negative replication valueâ€,
 Actual scientific theories such as Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs (check this), “pre-selectionâ€, and Evolutionary Psychology are distorted and misused.
 Non-critical use and validation of the term “slut†(p. 28).
 “She does have a boyfriend and she is willing to cheat on him (they often are if your game is tight), but she doesn’t want to feel guilty about it. This is her rationalization process at work. As long as she mentions the boyfriend before sleeping with you, she can rationalize to herself that it was your fault. Sure, she might regret it later, but that won’t necessarily stop her from cheating.†(p. 36).
 “Emotions are circuits in the brain that judge value and create motivation. They are designed to keep you alive and to replicate your genes. (p. 37).
 “What a woman likes or says she likes, is not necessarily what she responds to emotionally (and thus sexually). (p. 37).
 “All women have a powerful interruption system knows as “anti-slut defense†or ASD. When you play solid game, you will be able to escalate smoothly without triggering a woman’s anti-slut defenseâ€. (p. 38).
 “A woman often won’t do anything that makes her feel responsible for the escalation – she needs plausible deniability. The Venusian artist must take responsibility to make things happen and act with moxieâ€. (p. 38).
 “Don’t act as if things are a big deal. Just repeat the words “no problem†in your head until you really believe it. No matter what happens, it’s no big deal. (p. 38).
 “As you proceed with the pickup, keep the woman just inside that window between revalidation and rejection. She must be baited to chase in small increments, just like a cat with a string.â€. (p. 38).
 Women are referred to as “targetsâ€, “girlsâ€,
 “Attraction is not a choice†– David DeAngleo (p. 44).
 “In the same way that we men automatically feel an overwhelming attraction toward any Sports Illustrated swimsuit model because she turns on all our switches, women can be made to feel exactly the same way toward us if we only devise a clever method for systematically turning on all their attraction switches.†(p. 45).
 “the majority of a man’s attraction switches are set to respond to…p.45 check this!
 “Demonstrating that you have women interested in you, in this direct manner, is only one of many ways to trigger the same sexual selection switch. There are other ways. You can also wear women’s perfume. When a woman asks what you are wearing say, “Nothing.†Smell your collar and then, as if remembering, say, “Ah,†and smile to yourself.
 Another way to flip her preselection switch is to have a lipstick kiss on your cheek. In the exact same way you feel greater attraction for a woman if she has an appealing hip-to-waist ratio, a woman will feel toward you because of that all-important lipstick kissâ€. (p. 46)
Seduction is mutual: p 47
“it takes an average of 5 to 10 hours of cumulative comfort building before a woman is ready for seduction. (p. 54).
Coming Soon: A similar outing of the rest of the proof of unethical methods in the rest of the Mystery Method as well as in the enewsletters sent by Nick Savoy’s Love Systems.
Response to “the obsidianâ€:
“1. They’re all bloggers of varying stripeâ€
The above statement is one of the few things you’ve said that is actually true).
“2. They all have deep issues with regard to Gameâ€
The issues we have with Game are not “deep†but are legitimate.
“3. But they haven’t read the key source material, and almost always use, as their “primary†source info, Roissy in DC, or blogsites like it (such as say, Tucker Max, in the case of Ms. Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart.com)â€
Again, you make statements that are untrue and misinformed. Lady Raine and I have BOTH quoted from primary sources (which you don’t need to put in quotes by the way).
“Yet, the level of reasoning, and simple investigative research into the basic of issues surrounding Game by these and other Women is, I have to say, a slap in the face to all that the Academy stands for.â€
Again, you express an uninformed opinion that ignores what we have already put forth. I am weary from repeating myself to you. Perhaps you should reread the entire thread on Lady Raine’s blog and the threads on my blog as well to remind yourself of what is true.
“I am NOT arguing that these or any other Woman has to AGREE with Game, but rather, to merely be educated on its basic premise and methodology, as propounded by its creators and key thinkers themselves.â€
We ARE educated on its basic premise and methodology; it’s not rocket science. We’ve made this clear in all of our blog posts. I’m beginning to think you have severely deficient reading comprehension skills.
“Apparently, she got wind of my back and forth epic struggle with Lady Raine…â€
Are you delusional as well? I did not “get wind of†any “back and forth epic struggle with Lady Raine†and you. YOU are the one who decided to post an open letter to me, and I am now keeping my word and responding even though you’ve proven that you are intellectually dishonest and have no understanding of what it means to be an American.
“Ms. Romano’s comments over at Lady Raine’s struck me as a bit odd, considering the string of letters following her name; perhaps I do give such people a bit too much credit, because I have always been taught that such individuals are by definition, people who attempt to live by Reason, Logic and at least some understanding of and application of, the Scientific Method.â€
I have used the scientific method above. Read it again.
Just because YOU think my August 1, 2009 blog post is “outrageousâ€, does not mean you are correct. What is YOUR expertise? Oh, that’s right, you won’t tell us because you’re too cowardly to use your real name or real identity.
“Speaking of Style, it should also be said, that he goes out of his way in BOTH of his books, to warn Men about the very real Dark Sides of Game; in fact, I attribute a goodly bit of my own “style†to Style, not just in a stylistic sense, but in a moral one, too.â€
Neil Strauss’ warning about “the dark side of Game†is insufficient. He has made a great deal of money teaching men to deceive, manipulate, coerce, and utimately harm women and themselves whether they realize it and whether you agree with me or not. End of Story.
“Game (noun, verb): A corpus of knowledge, and series of behaviors, designed to win the SEXUAL ATTRACTION of the Female.
PERIOD.â€
As usual, you are being intellectually dishonest. You fail to acknowledge that the word “win†above really means the following given how Game is taught to men: con, trick, deceive, coerce, lie to, manipulate, pressure, psychologically abuse, hypnotize, and misuse NLP techniques.
“It is a mating strategy, and ALL living things found on the Earth has one, if not several. Game, is simply a mating strategy for Human Males to use.â€
Yet more lies from Obsidian above. It is NOT a mating strategy; it is a strategy to get men laid by any means necessary; there is an enormous difference.
“Game draws its knowledge from the insights gleaned from Evolutionary Psychology, itself considered by some a controversial corner of the Psychology world; PUAs (or “Gamers†if you will) study not only Game-specific materials, but also the work of noted Evolutionary Psychologists, like David Buss, Mat Ridley, and Steven Pinker. “
And yet more misinformation from Obsidian above: Game uses cherry-picked aspects of Evolutionary Psychology which have been grossly distorted in an attempt to justify the abusive, manipulative, and unethical methods which Game intentionally uses and teaches.
“In addition, Gamesmen (my preferred term) study the great works of literature on the topic of romance, seduction and Human Sexuality, such as The Story of O, the compendium written by Robert Greene The Art Of Seduction, My Secret Life and others.â€
You have a very odd idea of what constitutes a “great†work of literature and what the definitions of “romance†and “human sexuality†are. I would suggest instead that you read Getting Love Right by Terence Gorski, She Comes First by Ian Kerner, Cutting Loose by Howard Halpern, Boundaries and Relationships by Charles Whitfield, Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft, The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans, Unexpected Allies: Men Who Stop Rape by Todd Denny, The Macho Paradox by Jackson Katz, and Coercive Control by Evan Stark.
“Many of its core tenets may seem bizarre or counterintuitive to the uninitiated or otherwise untrained eye; but to those well-practiced in the Game, they know well the efficacy of its use and practical results.â€
For the Millionth time, we are NOT saying it doesn’t work to get men laid. We ARE saying it’s unethical.
“Game can also be said to be an “applied science†in the sense that it relies heavily on trial and error, after periods of intense and lengthy observation. Field reports, detailed accounts of actual, realtime interactions with Women are a staple of Game practice, and much of what is viewed today as the core tenets of Game came from said practice.â€
You’ve got to be kidding. Game is NOT an applied science, Game materials and practitioners have proven their lack of critical reasoning skills and ability to reality-test their beliefs, and “field reports†are not reliably accurate.
“Moreover, Game is NOT in itself moral or immoral; in fact, Game is AMORAL, and it is left solely to the practitioner as to how he will use it.â€
This is the same argument used about guns, fireworks, and cough medicine. And the conclusion is that the argument is invalid; THAT is why most states do have some amount of legal control for who can obtain and use those things. That is because they ARE harmful to many people.
“This is where methods such as the use of what is known as NLP-and forms the backbone of the Ross Jeffries school of Seduction or Game-comes in, because it uses considerable degrees of hypnosis in its methods.â€
Yes, and I’ve already posted on Lady Raine’s blog the comments from NLP and Hypnosis professional practitioners statinm.g that these methods do work, a person can be hypnotised without knowing it, and that it is unethical to use these methods on people to get sex from them.
“Does it work? I’ve seen it in action and can say, YES, it does work. But then we are left with the moral implications of such a strategem; is it RIGHT to do it? I say NO, and I am not alone.â€
Yet you still defend game and the other methods in Mystery’s book which I’ve provided examples of above.
“It is unclear if Mystery himself is cool with NLP, but what is clear, that his school of thought does not include or incorporate NLP in any way; instead his school of thought deals with what has become known as Social Dynamics, how people interact with each other within the context of group activity.â€
Ah yes, “social dynamics†– another fake, scientific-sounding concept made up by an entertainer, not a psychology professional.
“Again: Game is amoral. In and of itself, there is no “right†or “wrong†way to get a Woman into bed with you.â€
You’re kidding, right? There are multiple WRONG ways to get a woman into bed with you, and Game very intentionally teaches almost all of them.
“The only one to determine ultimately if something is good or bad, is the practitioner himself.â€
Really? I disagree. The women the Gamer has deceived, manipulated, lied to, hypnotized, used NLP on, psychologically coerced, and whose boundaries have been minimized and defiled by calling them LMR, and violating them – THEY are the ones to determine if something was good or bad.
“In this regard, I view Game in the same light as Niccolo Machiavelli’s The Prince-a practical and pragmatic, how-to guide to gaining political power and keeping it. It doesn’t concern itself with the moral or ethical implications of Statecraft; it is left to the “Prince†to decide for himself which way to go.â€
And the above is a complete cop-out. Guess what else didn’t concern itself with moral or ethical implications? Slavery. It was very very good for the American Economy, which would have completely collapsed if Slavery had been abolished earlier than it was. Do you feel the same way about that?
“Furthermore, Game is NOT relegated to the niteclub, bar or lounge, although it certainly can be used in such environments; Game can be applied to a whole host of situations and scenarios, from the boardroom and shopfloor, to the local taproom or formal events.â€
Right – and that makes it even worse. Women can’t even avoid these unethical manipulators by simply avoiding bars and clubs.
“Basically, ANYWHERE Men and Women get together, there will you also find GAME.â€
And that is why all PUA trainers, students, and practitioners need to honestly acknowledge the unethical aspects of it, denounce those, STOP using them, learn the definitions of rape, and learn how STDs are transmitted. Otherwise, they’re all willfully being negligent and choosing ignorance.
“That so many Women are so very concerned about the blatherings of weird guys with funny names in our time-a time where Women enjoy an unprecedented level of advance, freedom, opportunity and largesse-is proof if there ever was any, that Game does indeed WORK.â€
You are again being obtuse and missing the point. I’m going to start referring to you as “Obtuse†rather than “obsidian†as it suits you better. Try again please to use some critical reasoning skills. That so many women have a very bad reaction to Game, indicates only that women have serious and legitimate concerns about it.
In fact, Lady Raine and I have both outlined these and instead of acknowledging them, you lie and say that we havnen’t done this. Instead of thinking about what we’ve said, you erroneously claim we are making ad hominem attacks, proving you don’t even know what an ad hominem attack is.
“The very fact that Women from Lady Raine to Susan Walsh and now Denise Romano, make such a stink about it all, is again proof positive, that despite all the protestations and denunciations and denials to the contrary, that Game is indeed, highly effective.â€
You’re already said this. So I will reply again. No, what that proves is that we have legitimate concerns about it which should be taken seriously. You and Nick Savoy have both proven that you are too cowardly to do that.
“Understandbly then, they would be concerned about the way in which it is applied by its practitioners, and to what ends.â€
So, now you understand that we’re concerned about the way in which it is applied and to what ends? HERE is where you should have started your thinking and writing to me. Let’s see if you’re able to further develop that thought into anything useful as part of this discussion….Nope. You had one tiny moment of constructive clarity – and now it’s gone. Obtuse, indeed.
“It is important for these ladies to understand that, like any discipline or field of endeavor, there will invariably be many approaches, understandings and stances by many corners of said community; it is not at all unusual to find multiple, seemingly conflicting interpretations of things such as, say, the “Neg†is and how it is to be applied. For example, some say that Negs are indispensable to any seduction; others argue that it plays at best, a tangential role. Some say that Negs are to be employed in “carpet bombing†fashion regardless as to the Target is, others say that Negs should be “calibrated’ for use depending on how “hot†the Target is-the hotter she is, the more you Neg her. Those who attempt to diminish the whole of Game, are akin to those who attempt to diminish the whole of ANY field of endeavor, because within each one is bound to find differing takes on core or key tenets and ideas or principles. Such critics shouldn’t see this as a weakness or failing of Game, but indeed a strength, just as we would say, Psychology, and its many differing takes and “squabblesâ€, LOL. Viva La Difference, indeed!â€
The Neg is abusive. I’ve already blogged about this. So have other men and women. I do not have the energy to explain it to you YET AGAIN.
“Now-with all the above being said and laidout-it is also important to let Ms. Romano and every other person, Male or Female, reading this, know that YES, there are what I consider to be “Dark Forces†in the Game; who twist and pervert it to their own ends, and has the potential to really damage many lives with their “Black†Arts.
Are we know in the middle of a science fiction script or are we having a discussion? Your intentional obufscation is really exhuasting. The point many of us have made is exactly that there are those “who twist and pervert it to their own ends, and has the potential to really damage many livesâ€.
Again, had you even tried to find common ground with us and respecting our legitimate concerns, you might have started with that point. But you are not trying to find common ground. You are more interested in using big words and latin phrases you don’t understand in a long blog post to increase traffice. Disappointing indeed.
“For my part, I and others whom I consider good friends, do what we can to act as a kind of check on said behaviors, by speaking out against them and their kind.â€
And yet you have put enormous energy into arguing that none of our concerns are legitimate. Do you even understand what the concepts of “dicussion†and “finding common ground†are?
“For example, I liken NLP to Sith Magic, effective and highly seductive, but deeply morally unethical and potentially soul-killing, for both parties involved. While I respect Tyler Durden’s knowledge of Game, I refuse to use much of what he’s gleaned, because I so thoroughly disagree with his philosophical stances and just overall “vibeâ€. He creeps me out, quite frankly. And, as much as I respect Roissy’s deep knowledge of Game, I also deeply disagree with his application of same in many instances, as well as the overall vibe of his “houseâ€-which explains why few if any people have seen me posting there after my own blog launched, nearly three months ago.â€
Ah yes the launch of your blog. I keep forgetting that is *really* what this is about for you.
My question to your statement above is the same question I posed to Nick Savoy and other Gamers: IF you truly respect women, why would you be comfortable with being confused with men like Durden and Roissy? And, furthermore, WHY would you compliment anything about Roissy, given his egregious violence against women? That is alot like defending what a great painter Hitler was despite his “transgressionsâ€.
“While I’m on the topic of Roissy, let me also say, that in many ways, his presence on the Internet is both a triumph and a curse. He is a triumph in the sense that Game has real utility and, quite frankly, power, to change things. His promotion of Game has touched many lives, mine included, and I would to think, at least in my case, for the better.â€
Exhibit A Above: Obtuse thinks Hitler is a great painter. That’s why we call him “Obtuseâ€.
“But he is also a curse, in the sense that because of the way in which he blends his personal views on many topics in with Game itself, people on the outside looking in get the impression that HIS TAKE ON GAME IS “THE†TAKE ON GAME, and that’s where they would be sorely mistaken-but by then, the damage is done.â€
And now again, above, a momentary yet fleeting glimpse of clarity in Obtuse’s brain.
“Women, such as Lady Raine, Susan Walsh and Denise Romano, are convinced, based on Roissy and a few others like him, that Game is no good, that it is inherently misogynistic, and that it is also deliberately deceptive and manipulative.â€
You have clearly failed to read or comprehend anything I’ve written on Game. I base my assessment of it on many sources, other than Roissy.
“That Roissy attracts so much attention to Game on the one had, yet so much negative publicity for it on the other, is truly sad. It’s sad because Game itself has a much harder time getting a fair hearing. I’ve taken it on as my own personal mission to do what I can to present Game in its best light, since it’s been so good to me in meeting my goals in life. The record clearly shows me not only speaking out against what I consider “Sith†applications of Game no matter who does it, but I have also opposed Roissy himself publicly on a host of issues, both on his actual blog and here at my own, and will do so again if the need arises. Let me be clear here: Roissy’s understanding of Game information is not and cannot be in dispute; it is his application of Game, his undergirding philosophy, that IS in dispute, and that which I take deep issue with. This is the key distinction that I think is lost on many of his critics, many of whom refuse to properly acquaint themselves with key Game source materials, most notably Style’s works.â€
If it looks Obtuse, sounds Obtuse, and walks Obtuse; it’s Obtuse.
“I would also like to address Ms. Romano’s charges that to be a Gamesman is to be an abuser-something I take great umbrage with, for a number of reasons. First, depsite the presence of Men like Roissy, there has been no reports of Women being abused, and by that I mean, physically abused by PUAs.â€
Roissy counts and you don’t know that there have been no reports of women being abused in any way by Game, and you are mistaken.
“By the way, Roissy does NOT consider himself a PUA, he’s said so himself. Just wanted to be clear on that point. Moreover, as one who has put his livelihood and very life on the line to protect Women from abuse, I find Ms. Romano’s slinging out the term “abuse†to BE abusive, and a most disturbing trend in the popular culture of late-merely call anything you have a personal issue with or otherwise don’t like, “abusiveâ€, “misogynisticâ€, “racistâ€, “homophobic†and so on.â€
Right, I nearly forgot until you just reminded me that when I disagree with you I am both UnAmerican and abusive. Yet your frequent lies about what Lady Raine and I HAVE said and how I’ve told you repeatedly why I would not be able to respond to you right away but that I eventually would do so is an acceptable way for you to communicate.
“Such abuses of truly powerful terms cheapens their meaning, makes REAL instances of such abuses seem trivial, and makes the whole exercise a joke and a laughingstock, while at the same time throwing the true victims of such practices under the bus.â€
YOU are cheapening the meaning of every word and phrase you’ve misused in this ridiculous letter. Lady Raine and I have been using legitimate defintions of the words we’ve used, we have not cheapened their meaning, we have not trivialized instances of other abuse, others agree with us (including men who have stated so on LR’s and my blogs), and YOU are the one who is making this an unnecessarily ridiclous experience.
YOU have misquoted us, have lied about my communications with you, have been intellectually dishonest, and have failed to acknowledge that there are men who find merit with aspects of PUA trainings yet also share most of our very legitimate concerns.
“One would think that a Woman of Ms. Romano’s statue would be a bit more deliberative with her language, especially the written word.â€
You’re kidding. Once again: I’ve been extremely deliberative with my language, have provided citations, and have asked others in this important conversation to do so as well. YOU, however, need a repeat of tenth grade English, agood dictionary, and a course in critical reasoning skills.
“I also find it most interesting-aw heck, I’m just gonna call it what it is-hypocritical-of Ms. Romano to, on the one hand, deride those in the Game community who sell their wares to customers as snakeoil salesmen, to then turn around and implore Men to instead spend some $250 on “NVC†training.â€
This is not hypocritical at all. Again, your astounding lack of any ability to think rationally is shocking. Let’s try this in baby steps and see if you get it:
1. Yes: I see Game as something that is a fault product sold to men.
2. I encourage men to NOT spend their money on it because it is a faulty product.
3. I do encourage them to spend money on HELPFUL and HEALTHY products.
4. I do not teach NVC, so I’m NOT encouraging anyone to give ME their money.
There is nothing hypocritical about that.
“Mind you, I’m not yet in a position to say whether NVC is worth its weight in gold or lead-just that I find it interesting that she wants to shut down one aspect of commerce in favor of another. Hmm.â€
This is not a mystery; I have made it clear that I believe Game is a fault product that harms both men and women, and I’ve repeatedly said why, though you fail to comprehend or acknowledge this. Let’s try some baby steps again.
What I am saying is just like when someone says, “It is alot better for you to buy and consume fresh fruits and vegetables than it is to buy and consume fast food. It’s alot healthier for youâ€.
See? Now do you get it or are you still obtusely confused?
“Then there’s Ms. Romano’s seeming indifference, or intellectual dishonesty when it comes to the full range of “abuseâ€, indeed violence. Her Aug 1 2009 post was terribly one-sided in its view of the situation: Women are victims, Men victimizers. And while no one would deny that Woman are indeed abused and victimized, it seems incredibly hard for Women to even acknowledge that the same can happen to Men, too-even when the stats back this up.â€
This is another lie. In that post, I do say that men can be abused by women and that such abuse is wrong.
“And, as if to bring heaven sent proof of this fact, we need no other than one Mr. Tiger Woods, who, on Thanksgiving Day, was clocked upside the head with one of his own golf clubs by his wife, Mrs. Elin Woods. To be sure, no one I personally know-and definitely not me personally-defends Mr. Woods actions. But that doesn’t give Ms. Elin Woods the right to physically abuse her husband.â€
I’ve thought alot about this. This is my take on it. Tiger Woods intentionally and willingly CHOSE to have unprotected sex with more than ten women outside of his marriage vows to his wife (which he also willingly chose to make) thus exposing Elin (and their youngest child if that child is being breastfed) to every STD there is – including potentially fatal ones.
AND, any sex that Elin had with Tiger after his very first instance of infidelity (whether it was unprotected or not) WAS AN ACT OF RAPE.
WHY? Because Elin would NOT have chosen to sleep with him after that, as is true for most women. After the very first time he betrayed her, he was no longer who he claimed to be, and every sexual encounter with his wife thereafter was a rape because he DENIED her the information she needed to give full consent to sleep with him.
Had he told her what he did, she would NOT have slept with him.
Furthermore, I will say it again: Infidelity IS Emotional, Psychological, Verbal, Sexual, and Physical Abuse all at once.
Therefore, I see Elin’s having hit Tiger with a golf club as justifiable given that he raped her and abused her in every way possible repeatedly, and she now has to wait several months to learn what STDs she’s been exposed to.
“Now, where is the intellectual consistency on Ms. Romano’s part here? Hmm? To ask the questin is to answer it. If she can take time out of her schedule to write a lengthy hit piece on Game and PUAs and MRAs, if she can find time to log her comments in to Lady Raine’s blog about same, then why can’t she find the time to speak out against what Elin Woods did? Hmm?â€
You are a complete idiot. Yes my intellectual inconsistency MUST be the only explanation for me to write a lenghty post on Game and post on Lady Raine’s blog but not to speak out against Elin Woods! There couldn’t possibly be any OTHER explanation for this.
Seriously: You’ve recently hit your head very hard, right?
First: I have clarifiied my position on Elin Woods over the past week, having thought about it quite a bit. Hint: it’s a good idea to think before you comment, you may want to remember that. AND, the focus of my blog has been on concepts and learning, not on individual acts of violence, other than my very recent post highlighting Dimitri, the PUA who was prosecuted for criminal behavior.
Second: Let’s talk about YOUR intellectual inconsistency. Have you gone to the MRA websites and asked them to evenly examine and publicize violence against women and violence against men? No, you haven’t. Because you see that their mission IS to bring attention to violence against men, and you respect that. Now try respecting this: I have a different mission for my blog, which you obviously don’t understand and did not consider.
“And why is that NO MAJOR FEMINIST WEBSITE TO DATE, has done so either? If anything, it’s the exact opposite, a kind of “You Go Girl!†sentiment, not tacitly expressed, by EXPLICITY expressed.â€
There is a reason for this. Reread my Elin Woods comments above. I’m sure many women feel the same way.
“If Ms. Romano is truly interested in the fairness she exhorts PUAs to exhibit with regard to Men and Women, one would think she could start in her own backyard. Afterall, charity, begins at home.â€
You get minus 10 points for misusing a cliche. And, you haven’t seemed to notice that my backyard is EI and NVC. And there is nothing unethical going on with those.
“What about Mary Winkler-who shot her hubbie in the back with a shotgun, while he was sleeping? The only “proof†we have that she was “abused†comes from Mrs. Winkler herself-there was no independent record of spousal abuse on Rev. Winkler’s part, and to add insult to injury, Mrs. Winkler was even feted on Oprah-white platform shoes and all-to tell her story. No one was there to speak for Rev. Winkler. Dead Men tell no tales.â€
What is your point? If you want to blog about this, go ahead. I am interested in raising awarness about how GAME is unethical and how most MRA groups are (like the PUA industry) alarmingly misogynistic and lacking in the most basic critical thinking skills.
“I saw no such denunciation of Mrs Winkler on Ms. Romano’s or quite frankly, any other Woman’s site who claims to care about “domestic abuseâ€. Seems that they care about it only when it involves Women-on the receiving end.â€
There you go lying again. This is officially the LAST time I will ever respond to you. Your lying is inexcusable and exhausting. You KNOW that both Lady Raine and I have denounced abuse and violence (other than self-defense) regardless of the gender of the person committing it or being victimized by it.
I see what Elin Woods did as completely different as Tiger raped her and exposed her to many diseases including potentially fatal diseases. And their young child has likely been exposed as well.
“Last month, in specific response to my lady readers, I put up a post taking up the question as to whether Game was inherently deceptive and manipulative. Without exception, excuse or apology, I said that YES, Game can indeed be used this way, that there is a contingent of the Game community who does this, and that I neither condoned or endorsed it, nor did I want to be associated with anyone who was known to be engaging in such activity. Then I asked the Women who claimed to be so concerned about the ethics of the Men in the Game community, about the many deeply deceptive and manipulative things Women do, and have done, for YEARS.â€
Perhaps the problem is that you read your own posts but not those posted by LR and myself.
“I invite Ms. Romano or anyone else reading this open letter to see my post for themselves, it’s in the Dec 2009 archive and very easy to find. The replies I got back from the majority of Women-notable exceptions aside-were in a word, ming boggling. Some actually wanted to justify the actions I pointed ouit that Women did; others wanted to actually put up for debate, other things Women have long done that was at the least a misrepresentation of herself, if not out and out deceit. Finally, in a followup post I put up directed at the ladies of my forum, also found in the Dec 2009 archives, I questioned them as to why we never see those issues addressed on so many Women’s blogs and websites. The responses were again, in a word, mind-boggling-if not quite deceitful in themselves.â€
Here’s a hint to you: when something is mind-boggling, you need to learn how to THINK about it and ask questions so you can then do your best to understand something you don’t understand. That is how we learn. Try it; you might like it.
“It all adds up to a feeling on the part of many Men, of a very real double-standard-Women want Men to be held accountable, but they don’t want to be held accountable themselves. Women have no problem using every advantage they can get out there on the Mating Grounds, but deplore anything that might help Men get an advantage, too. Women want Men to speak out against their own who do wrong, but Women can never seem to be found when time comes to speak out against a Elin Woods, a Mary Winkler, a Crystal Gale Mangum, to say nothing about the many scores of Women who take advantage of Men every way till the next Xmas. Women want Men to take the high road, but don’t seem to have trouble at the very least, condoning the low behavior of so many of their “sistersâ€.â€
RE: the above: please read my post: “In Response to Several Questions Posed to Me at this Blog About PUAs and MRAs†about logical fallcies, intellectual dishonesty, and a complete lack of critical reasoning skills in the PUA and MRA groups.
“That Ms. Romano makes outrageous claims against Game, indicts someone like Style and lumps him in with known and documented spousal abusers, rapists and murderers, asserts that ALL PUAs are “abusers of Women†and then falls completely silent on the well known and publicized events of clear, present and REAL abuse perpetrated by the Women above, someone who’s LIFE WORK is to advocate for victims of violence and abuse, really says it all to me, and to any thinking, caring person who gives a damn about fairness, decency, and just plain ole getting the facts straight. If this is the best our Academy can do, it is little wonder we as a society are in the mess we’re in afterall.â€
Where have I said that my life’s work is to advocate for victims of violence and abuse? That is not my life’s work. Where do you come up with this stuff?
My life’s work, is to examine issues of those who wish to have POWER-OVER others and the many ways those people and groups try to accomplish that. My life’s work is also to write about such things so that others can be eduated about these important issues.
“I’ll say this in closing, and it behooves Women like Ms. Romano to listen close: your “war†against Roissy, Savoy and others, will not succeed. It won’t because not only are your motives wrong, but so to are your own convictions.â€
I do hope and pray that this is really nearly the end of your ridiculous letter to me. Our motives are not wrong and neither are our convictions. If you had merely repeated for the 100th time that you disagree with us, your only error would have been more redundancy on your part. But, now you’ve also made a further ass of yourself by claiming to know what motives and convictions are right or wrong.
“More and more Men aren’t flocking to these guys for nothing, Ms. Romano-there’s a “there†there.â€
Yes, men are flocking to the PUA industry because they haven’t read the many healthy sources of relationship advice and training that are out there because are not slyly marketed directly to their insecurities as Game is. Men flocking to Game is a triumph of marketing and nothing else.
“And so long as you and others like you refuse to address the root causes of why the Roissys exist in the first place, all you’ll be doing is standing in the middle of a sinking boat, trying to prevent it from going under by tossing overboard bucketfuls of water.â€
I’m SO glad you brought this up! Let’s clarify what you mean by this:
Are you giving women credit for the root causes of creating a man as wonderful as Roissy or are you blaming women for the root causes of creating a monster like Roissy? Which is it and why?
I need to repeat to you that due to the many lies you’ve told since you posted your letter and IN your letter, I will not again give you this kind of attention or respond to any open letters you post to me unless I choose to do so for some reason of my own.
Thanks,
Denise
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And this:
http://www.justdetention.org/pdf/Rape%20by%20Fraud.pdf
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Learn about LACK OF CONSENT:
http://www.svfreenyc.org/survivors_legal.html#A1
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What constitutes a sexual offense:
http://www.svfreenyc.org/survivors_legal.html#A2
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Read this:
http://www.svfreenyc.org/media/factsheets/fsht_149.pdf
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Denise, do you actually think someone…ANYONE…is going to take the time to wade through that extraneous SPAM post you just copied and pasted here without any formatting, spaces, or paragraph breaks?
I got a headache after the first three sentences.
Geesh.
Go feed your cats or something.
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Go feed your cats or something.
LOL
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””””’I see what Elin Woods did as completely different as Tiger raped her and exposed her to many diseases including potentially fatal diseases. And their young child has likely been exposed as well.””””””””
So woman cheating on men is also rape according to you it would be acceptable for the man to hit her in the face with a golf club.
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion huh
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I did but only had to go a little ways in to pull the gem I did. lol
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I guess that means no blowjob or sandwich either.
I’d be crushed if it were me she was talking to…
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Supposing for a moment that this was true, so what? Why should all motivations be considered to be equal?
So was this paragraph: you’ve denigrated and abused PUAs in this paragraph, and completely disregarded, minimized, mocked, denied, and circumvented their feelings. That this occurs is simply a fact of human existence. That you expect men to get over it, and simultaneously avoid doing it to women is how we know that your position is morally bankrupt.
Tell me, in what way does calling it a “bitch shield” minimize it? Sure it’s mockery, and I’ll trust your assertion that it’s insulting, but you’ve stuck a severely inaccurate assessment in between two accurate ones; giving it a condescending name doesn’t stop it from working.
Really? Did they tell you this? Every single one of them?
That’s exactly what they’re doing. If doing this didn’t work for that purpose, they wouldn’t be doing it.
And real doctors used to saw off limbs; the advice of a licensed professional is not necessarily optimal or even helpful.
What they suggest involves the construction of hypotheses, the testing through experiment, and the rejection of failed hypotheses. This is science, even if they aren’t using statistics. Ethics is a different question, but one which you have not (yet) meaningfully attacked.
Tangentially, and entertainer is still a professional…they’re just a professional entertainer. What you meant here is that they are not credentialed, professional psychologists. This may or may not be true, but your method of claiming this was disingenuous at best–licensed professionals are not the only people qualified to have opinions.
Boohoo… if person X does something person Y doesn’t like, person Y calls them names.
Wow, so instead of learning one set of false statistics (your claim that 1 in 3 women are raped is false, see for example the national crime victimization survey for a more accurate estimate) they learned another set of false statistics (assuming, as you imply, that the statistic noted is false–a claim that I accept, though I have no handy evidence on the matter).
Really? How do you know that people don’t know these things?
News at 11. Seriously, the most common form of the claim that arousal is consent that I have ever seen or heard is women claiming that men can’t be raped, since if they didn’t want it they wouldn’t be erect. This bogus justification is not exactly common around here.
So all the women who have lied about the number of previous sexual partners they’ve had are also being abusive? And the ones who can’t remember or didn’t keep track, or refused to answer are being abusive? And it’s also abuse if she doesn’t mention any other sources of disease she might be infected with (after all, the exchange of bodily fluids and high degree of physical contact can result in the transfer of all sorts of things)? In short, a complete medical history is necessary before consent of either party can be established?
Which brings us back to guys getting raped by women just because they are wearing push-up bras and makeup.
No, there is tremendous anger and rage about laws that have given MORE rights to women than men.
And you have very conveniently chosen to completely ignore the possibility that they might be right. If I’d worn my left shoe differently when I was three, I’d be a completely different person now, but that doesn’t mean that I’m likely to consider my (largely normal) childhood shoe-wearing habits as a significant factor to making me who I am.
No, Game teaches men to market themselves effectively to women’s natural decision making process instead of fighting the uphill battle of doing what people say should work, but doesn’t.
I doubt very many of them were shrieking, but I will accept this claim at face value. It’s nice that you noticed this.
The answer to this question is moderately complicated. By practicing Game, we are giving women what they want (as measured by their behavior), which might be seen as upholding this “responsibility” even if it is done out of self-interest. In reality, however, Game is generally adopted by people who recognize that many (most?) women, ignore any sort of “responsibility” towards the feelings and needs of men, and so are simply responding in kind.
You have again made an assessment of someone else’s motive on essentially no evidence. I do not know which came first–your study of psychology, or your belief that you could tell what everyone else was thinking–but the inaccuracy and distortion endemic in your assessments speak for themselves.
Ignoring for the moment that you have precisely described the current situation without Game with the genders reversed (i.e., many–if not almost all–women currently do everything they can to get the upper hand, use tactics that are manipulative, coercive, abusive, and deceptive, and claim that they are not responsible because men should have better judgment), your claim is not describing Game in a meaningful way. Yes Game is manipulative–you want someone else to behave in a particular way, so you behave in a particular way in order to get your desired response. Coercion is not involved. Abuse is only involved if you grossly distort its meaning–and even then you have to apply the meaning asymmetrically. Deception about material facts is entirely optional. Even with Game, men still do not hold most of the cards–women still have more legal and social protection than men do–Game is simply the dance that convinces these women not to use the full extent of their legal arsenal.
No, it works because it is what women want most of all. The fact that there are a number of other things they want that they compromise on in order to get a man with Game is their choice, and is also your objection. You have found that you cannot get women to stop compromising on those things (or else you don’t want to get them to do so), so instead you attack the people willing to tell people what matters the most to many women.
No, it doesn’t (and again you’ve spoken in terms of the motives of others). It seeks to teach men what they need to know in order to be selected for such things.
And again we have the makeup problem. When you take a stand to ban makeup, I believe that you are serious about this assertion.
No, Enron’s accountants and Bernie Madoff lied about what they were doing with other people’s money. If a guy says he’ll hang onto your purse to keep it safe and spends your loose cash or runs up debt on your credit card, that is comparable. By all means, I suggest you go after anyone advocating that sort of theft with the full force of the law.
No, the reason fraud is brought to both civil and criminal courts is that fraud both can cause financial damages (for which it is a civil offense) and is itself a criminal offense.
Part of the process of determining fraud is establishing that there were material misrepresentations of fact. None need necessarily occur in the practice of Game.
Beyond this, there is the question of whether there is intent on the part of the supposed fraudster; a lie made accidentally or with disregard for whether or not it is true is not fraud. Most of the deceptive practices of Game that I have seen or heard of do not meet this requirement.
Further, the supposedly defrauded party must reasonably have been ignorant of the falseness of the claim, and must have, under law, a specific right to expect that the claim can be relied upon. No such right exists for the sorts of circumstances in which Game applies.
Finally, legal damages must be suffered by the defrauded party due to the fraud. These are unlikely to be present.
If your claims in this paragraph were true, Game would not have developed. Men did not turn to Game because they were unaware of how to tell people about their feelings. Men turned to Game because women generally didn’t care what those feelings were.
This seems a difficult assertion to prove…unless this is how you intend to define quality women. If that’s the case, I think you will find that quality women are almost literally one in a million–there are perhaps a few thousand in the world who are so deformed as to not want to find new and interesting challenges. Of course, they are also so rare as to not be worth a significant quantity of consideration.
In other words, you want men to handle all the details perfectly, except whichever ones the woman decides she wants to handle–that is, you want him to hand over all the power in the relationship to her.
This strategy is neither equal (which you claim to prefer), nor likely to be successful (stated from personal experience).
So, in addition to handling all the details, but handing over the power to her to do whatever she wants, he also has to be entertaining, both as a listener and as a provider of entertainment–with no reciprocal expectation.
As a side note, you have suggested that you would prefer that men know who they are, what they want, and what they don’t want–but you have decried men’s efforts at measuring what they do and don’t want as abusive. Hopefully, this is food for thought.
In other words, he views sex as another opportunity to worship her preferences, only caring about his own desires when they don’t conflict. So far, it sounds to me like it is YOU who would prefer that your partners of the opposite gender are doormats.
In other words, he believes exactly what you do, reads exactly the things you want him to, and has no opinions of his own, except the occasional quaint bit of entertainment.
And you wonder why you have trouble getting people who’ve discovered that they can have relationships without any of this garbage from buying into your plan? Never mind the question of whether you really think all men should be like that, since this really reads as a list of what you, specifically, think you want.
The source of a statement does not determine whether or not the statement is true. A respected physicist is not incapable of saying, “Electrical charges of the same sign repel,” or similar nonsense, and Stalin would still have been telling the truth if he had said that the grass was green.
We have a distinction between credible and non-credible sources in an effort to help us determine what to believe, but the failure to use “credible” sources does not in and of itself make someone wrong.
Duly noted. Believe them or not, it’s up to you. I certainly don’t believe everything they say.
Between the beginning of Homo sapiens in the fossil record some 200,000 years ago, and the beginning of recorded history some 6000 year ago, you can hopefully understand why the former might have a larger effect on our evolution than the latter.
Behavior speaks louder than words. Men employing the tactics you suggest are routinely ignored, or used for their money. Men employing Game find themselves with as much or more willing female attention as they could possibly want.
No more of a responsibility than she does to reveal that she expects him to marry her. If she doesn’t reveal that fact, she isn’t exactly on sound moral footing to complain about his silence. If she does, and he lies, he is indeed a liar (and there is little point to such a lie; it doesn’t actually get you anything).
You would have preferred that the subtitle not be descriptive of the contents? And I’m only giving the term “predatory” a pass here because it has essentially no meaning in this context.
This is a simple call to action…and failure to learn how to attract women seems likely to cause a failure to reproduce, so I’m not sure on what grounds you think you are attacking this statement.
Do you have any evidence at all that this claim is false?
This does not, on the face of it, appear to be a false statement. Did you forget what you were listing?
This also does not appear to be a false statement. Your attitude towards being measured quantitatively is noted.
No, the book tells people how to attract women. Seduction is generally a desired side-effect.
It appears to me that you are simply unhappy with terms you typically like being applied to something you have decided you don’t like. To take the first example off of your list, you assert that the term “algorithm” is distorted and mis-used. An algorithm is just an effective (used here as a technical term, not its usual meaning) method of solving a problem. You will have a great deal of difficulty in providing evidence that this term (or any other term on this list) is being distorted or mis-used.
Um, boohoo? It’s a word in the English language, and if my objective is to communicate, I am not afraid to use it.
And if you think that this is just because I am not a member of the class it is typically used on, consider that I, as a white Jew, have answered to both “Hey, cracker!” and “Hey, Kike!” If you think I am going to care about your choice to get offended over this term, you are barking up the entirely wrong tree.
I must again ask why this is on a list of supposedly false statements…I agree that assisting in her infidelity is reprehensible (and the blame shared, though mostly on her–he is just being an enabler), but your methods of trying to convince others of this (namely, by burying it in the middle of a vitriolic diatribe largely filled with nonsense), leave much to be desired.
You have provided no particular reason you don’t like this passage. I disagree with the claim that emotions are circuits in the brain, but the rest seems fine.
Do you honestly believe this claim is false? Anyone who has studied any amount of psychology should know that this is very generally true–people’s claims are extremely poor predictors of what actually makes them happy.
I suppose I must concede that it is possible some women without ASD exist. Removal of the word “all” here is indeed appropriate.
This is another one that I have a hard time believing you really think is false…never mind the unquantified “often” that makes it essentially impossible to disprove: do you really think that it is not typical for men to drive most of the escalation in a relationship?
So, you are standing here against the idea that men should have more confidence in their interaction with women–that they should view things as being a big deal and get neurotic over it?
This seems like proscriptive advice; again, you seem to have forgotten that this was a list of “false statements”. You might think it is bad advice, but you will have difficulty convincing those who have seen it work.
Largely because using the same word repeatedly makes for dull writing. Next!
A great truism. Action is a choice. Attraction is a feeling, and, like most feelings, it is largely not under the control of the person who feels it.
I’m again not sure how you plan on showing this statement to be false. Are you saying that it is not possible for women to feel attraction?
You seem to have left yourself a note in the middle of your bloated rant…and failed to go back to it. In any case, this is an incomplete thought.
We seem to have drifted out of false statement territory again. Fortunately, it seems obvious why you put this here…you have decided that men wearing perfume is deceptive and therefore (according to you) abusive.
Assuming that that was your intent, you will need to explain why, exactly, you think women should be allowed to wear perfume, and men not…unless you are prepared to simply ban perfume.
Alternatively, you disbelieve that this causes any sort of attraction. I have never tried it (and I don’t know of anyone personally who says they have), so I cannot rely on experience here. That said, it seems plausible, and you have supplied no evidence against it.
This requires no particular commentary separate from that of the preceding section.
Disproving this is, quite literally, impossible…it is simply and irrevocably dependent upon your understanding of the terms mutual and seduction. Under the usual interpretation, this is a true assertion.
I will admit that this claim stands largely unsubstantiated, although the conventional wisdom in the PUA community is now something like 7 hours, tested through collective experience, but not substantiated by anything more than that.
In other words, your random thoughts, as you have them, and whatever you feel you don’t like, regardless of any sort of objective principles of morality (notably absent from your judgments). In the unlikely event that are not simply repetitions of the same ideas you have presented here, I may comment on them, too.
I hope you won’t mind if I respond even if it isn’t directed at me.
On the contrary, they are pretty deep (you’ve gone quite far into the matter), but they appear to be largely illegitimate.
He put them in quotes because the sources he listed are not primary. You have, above, gone to a primary source, quoted it a bunch of times, and said little or nothing.
You have, further up in this very comment, personally perpetuated the idea that hypnosis is a part of Game. PUAs are offended by this for one simply reason–it is an attack on their skills to claim that they need such tactics. Not identifying as a PUA myself, I largely don’t care about that facet of this, but I consider your presence an excellent opportunity to learn more about the inner workings of the mind of someone who vehemently rejects Game.
And now you talk past each other, for the reason I noted above.
and now you throw in some ad hominem attacks for good measure…I don’t care who started it, but you’re here now.
No, you have not. No experiment has occurred or was directly mentioned in your rant up to this point.
If he’s right, his degree of expertise is irrelevant. If he’s wrong, his degree of expertise is irrelevant.
Tell me again why I should care if he keeps his anonymity or not…
Really? If the story went as you said and ended there, I don’t think we’d be having this discussion, since it seems to take place after all of that. Of course, that hasn’t happened, so maybe this is future events you are predicting.
No, it is you have interpreted Game as being these things. His definition is entirely honest: of your list of components necessary to “win”, the only one actually inherently part of Game is manipulating.
Please be more specific. What is the enormous difference between mating and getting laid?
I think you will find that any application of one field to another results in a cherry picking of results…some part can be applied and others can’t. Your insistence that this is immoral is fundamentally unsound.
Another opportunity to shill for the above books. I hope you aren’t failing to disclose a conflict of interest on the matter, but I don’t care either way.
That’s nice. Cite some sort of impartial ethical principle, some aspect of Game that you think violates it, and then be prepared to be told that the principle isn’t impartial and the aspect isn’t a central tenet of Game anyway. That’s the way a discussion about the ethicality of Game would actually work.
Instead, you have taken as many opportunities as possible to shill for a bunch of books and a method that doesn’t work, in the hopes of enticing away people from a method that does.
Field reports are not reliable, but they make an excellent source for hypothesis. Personal experience for each practitioner of Game supplies plenty of data in support without the need to rely on the reports of others. If someone tried to introduce methods to the Game community that were not effective, practitioners would individually try them, find them ineffective, and ignore them. This is science, whether you like that fact or not.
No, states have legal controls in place on firearms and medicines because they can get away with it, and because politicians who supported that sort of legislation were able to get elected and re-elected. Morality is not dependent upon law, and the passage of laws is not, in general, dependent upon the correctness of the arguments made by those supporting them.
The fact that people, in general, have decided that placing a restriction on the right to own a gun is worth the increase in safety they believe it implies does not validate any of the arguments that got them there.
Unfortunately, you have then extended this to the idea that all of Game is immoral. This is false, and those who agree that hypnosis is immoral, yet still practice Game are annoyed at having you stabbing them in the back on this issue.
That’s right. Because, like any other body of knowledge throughout the world over essentially all of history, there are some people who use it immorally, and there are some people who insist on incorporating immoral parts into it. But you have chosen to undermine the people who stand against those components in an effort to sink the whole ship.
Given that there have been a lot more words invented by entertainers than psychology professionals, this should not be nearly as surprising to you as it appears to be. People had something they wanted to talk about. they didn’t know a term for it. So they picked one. This is how language forms.
I’m going to agree with you on this one. There are two wrong ways I can think of: (1) through direct physical force or the threat of force, and (2) through the use of a coercive drug.
Fortunately, Game teaches men social tools so that they won’t feel that they need to use either of those methods.
You are both wrong. Morality is only meaningful as an objective tool, and you have both picked subjects with a vested interest in a particular conclusion.
If, however, you seek to avoid appeals to outside authorities as much as possible, you are stuck trying to convince the practitioner of what is moral–which is, I expect, precisely why you have attacked Game. Your objective is to get men to believe that Game is immoral. You will, for the most part, fail. If you stood with the people who practice Game without hypnosis or NLP programming, you might have some hope, of reducing the number of people who make the leap to those methods, but as long as you do not supply an effective alternative, your bleating will have no effect on the moral judgments of these men in the longer term.
No, it is an explanation. Hiding behind it in the face of a moral principle condemning a specific practice or collection of practices (rather than a single person’s whimsical claims to abstract ethics without specific moral principles) would be a cop-out.
On the contrary, it largely did. Most of the time it was justified by claims that the slaves were better off.
Doubtful. It was nearly abolished much earlier, but the arrival of the cotton gin made it effective to own slaves for half a century longer. If that invention had arrived even a decade or so later, slavery might have ended before its arrival.
Slavery, as it was practiced in America, was immoral.
Biblical “slavery” defaulted to a limited term, and the master was responsible for making certain that the freed indentured servants (for that is what they were) were able to restart their lives after their term ended–and failure to do so was punishable by financial ruin.
Saying “slavery is immoral” oversimplifies the question, as you have assumed a context. Similarly, saying “game is immoral” oversimplifies the question, as you have assumed a context not generally present.
This is you agreeing with his assertion, and then making an unsubstantiated extension of you existing unsubstantiated argument.
Most people are okay with choosing ignorance most of the time, so you might want to pick a different tack there.
Further, you have taken a stand against all practitioners of Game, so you are unlikely to find many willing to support you in your efforts to get them to renounce specific practices. If you instead picked specific practices, and sided with the people who have already taken a public stand against them, you might find yourself actually achieving some degree of success.
No, it indicates that they have serious concerns about it. Legitimacy stands unproven, and certainly isn’t guaranteed by the mere fact that they have concerns.
This is an ad hominem attack you just made:”You are again being obtuse…” this is an attack on his character in an effort to discredit his argument. That you can make such a statement in one paragraph, and then claim that you have not made ad hominem attacks in the next is, quite frankly, staggering.
Regarding your original point, the only specific immoral practices I have seen you stand against about Game on any sort of meaningful footing are:
(1) Hypnosis
(2) NLP
(3) infidelity and enticement of others to infidelity
There are many who fight against the first two amongst PUAs, but you have chosen to tar them with the same brush as the ones who use such practices.
There are many who fight against all three amongst believers in game who do not identify as PUAs, but you have planted yourself against them as well.
This forces us to question whether you really think that these are problems, or if you are simply interested in preserving female superiority in the relationship market. Most of us won’t bother waiting to hear your answer, since you are not the first to take this position and then lie about their motives (as measured against future behavior).
And again you assert that your concerns are legitimate without proof. At least I don’t have to say anything more on the subject at this point.
Your effort to shame Obsidian, however, is comparatively new. You should be warned that is unlikely to have a significant effect…too many have relied on it for him to care much at this point. your willingness to resort to psychological abuse in order to get your way is, however, duly noted.
Here, I’ll develop it for him. You recognize that these methods are effective. The methods you are trying to sell to make a living aren’t effective. Thus, you are concerned about trying to removed the effective methods from the market, so your ineffective methods have a chance.
That was something of a low blow, so I’ll supply another possible motive (I obviously can’t definitively determine your true motive); you are honestly concerned that these women will not have the presence of mind to choose what will be good for them in the long term. You do not believe you can convince them to act in their own interest. So you plan to hold the practitioners of Game up at gunpoint to try to get them to stop, since using violence or threats of violence against men doesn’t have the same emotional weight to you as the possibility that some women, somewhere might make bad choices.
That was still a shot below the belt, so we’ll assume even more altruism on your part. You honestly believe that your methods will work, but they are outcompeted by other methods that will also work, for whatever reason (perhaps you think that they simply got there first). Since you think that your methods are better for everyone, if only they’d switch you’ve decided to make a big stink about it as much as possible in the hopes of grabbing a few converts, and gradually gaining traction. Your failure in this regard has confused you, but not so much that you will change your behavior.
Of course, that last one makes out that this is in some sense your life’s work; I doubt it’s quite that important to you, so we’ll go with another approach as a final possibility: you have decided to rise to the collective defense of women everywhere against these upstarts with their effective methods of giving them what they want instead of what they need. Since some of them do things that are easy to fight against you latch onto these practices as a tool to fight the entire group…if only you can slay this beast, then you will finally be safe. If only you could control what everyone was allowed to say or tell people about, only those you deem worthy could have the forbidden fruit of knowledge and be allowed to speak–and everyone else would continue with their subservience to you. That situation couldn’t possibly be the fastest track to violent uprising, of course.
So you abused him when you called him cowardly a moment ago? Stop the presses…you better turn yourself in, they’re sure to get you and it might go easier.
No, your point, over and over again, has been that EVERYONE who practices Game is reprehensible. Then, when some people tried to submit the idea that SOME PEOPLE who practice Game are reprehensible you agreed with them while simultaneously vilifying them along with the rest.
Tangentially, your assertion that your concerns are legitimate has again popped up…along with a claim that you desire common ground. Since you have not made it in any way clear that you are okay with any aspect of Game, lets start the search for common ground with that.
Since you agree that Game is effective (hey…there’s some common ground we discovered pretty quickly), name two effective strategies from Game that you are fine with. These can be any two things you can think of about Game that we can point to as common ground, but it would be useful if you would pick something as central as possible, so we have an easier time trying to build off of it.
Meanwhile, we’ll continue to practice Game as is, until we
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While I did not read the entire 90 page document, examining the most likely sections (the introduction, and anything that did not involve impersonation of particular people, or other obvious forms of fraud like claims of medical necessity) leads to the straightforward conclusion that Game falls under none of these categories.
Again, none of the forms indicated here substantiate your claims about infidelity causing future sexual acts to be rape, or Game being rape. In particular this link indicates that in the state of New York, lack of consent falls into one of the categories:
Forcible Compulsion
Physically helpless
Under 17 years of age
Mentally Incapacitated
Mentally Disabled
Inmate
or a more inclusive category:
Some Factor Other Than Incapacity to Consent: Rape 3 and Criminal Sexual Act 3 have recently been modified with a “no means no” clause. In cases of intercourse only, if the victim expressed that he or she did not consent to the sex act in such a way that a reasonable person would have understood those words or acts as expressing lack of consent, this would be prosecutable as Rape in the third degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the third degree. This makes a case easier for the District Attorney to prosecute because it is based on a reasonable person standard, and not on the specific interpretation of a defendant.
Yet this requires expressed lack of consent (and not just assumed lack of consent based on misinformation). Your assertion that sex after infidelity is rape is disproven, for the state of New York, by your own link.
This section details what acts are considered sexual offenses–if lack of consent is established according to the above, which I have already explained has not occurred.
Okay. The UCR under-reports because it looks specifically at cases of violent rape as reported by police, and meeting a particular definition. The NCVS asks questions that bunches of people seem to think leads to under-reporting, but I doubt their correctness. The latter groups use dodgy statistics, and samples not large enough to make the claims they want. The NWS-R, for example, which makes the largest claim, hasn’t told you its 95% confidence interval for a reason: they say more than a million women get raped a year, but they don’t tell you that that count is plus or minus about 350,000. Regardless, all the surveys supplied indicated between 1 in 8 and 1 in 6 women raped in their lifetimes, unlike the 1 in 3 figure you supplied in your earlier comment on this thread.
Obviously, this is a very real problem. The continual efforts to expand its apparent proportions serve only to make it sound ridiculous rather than actually do something to reduce it.
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How PUA methods teach and encourage men to rape women and irresonsibly and negligently FAIL to teach men what constitutes sexual assualt and rape and what CONSENT is and is NOT:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/12/11/state_college_man_bound_over_f.aspx
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OK Denise, that’s enough. Quit spamming my sites now.
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That woman wasn’t raped!
They were both drunk.
She flirted with him. Gave the guy the come on.
I really tire of reading about stupid, sluttish, drunk women who put themselves in such precarious situations.
Play with fire , you get burnt.
No sympathy from me.
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As I’m sure Ms. Romano will respond, this still meets the legal definition of rape…the mental capacity of the alleged rapist is not a factor in determining rape in any state whose laws I’ve looked at on the matter (20 or so at this point); if both are incapacitated through alcohol, then both are rape victims under the legal definitions most commonly used (excepting the ones that only recognize the penetrated person as the rape victim).
That said, the guy was an idiot for getting himself into a situation where consent was unclear. There obviously isn’t enough evidence to determine whose story was accurate here (i.e., whether she was conscious when they started or not), but there is every reason to think that the crime of rape really did occur. Of course, under the legal definition, he may also have been raped (it’s not clear how much he was drinking), so I’m going to side with Kathy on the moral implications of the matter.
Finally, it’s not clear how much material this man has seen relating to Game; given that his only reference to it is an offhanded component of a single television episode, there is little reason to believe (based on this article) that he has seen more than a few minutes on the subject. Blaming Game for this would be little different than blaming a feminist publication that stated “No means no” if some idiot claimed that he didn’t think it was rape because she didn’t say “no” until after he started.
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Given that I’ve overrun apparent character limits in WordPress twice, I’m going to try posting the remainder of my above marathon response in chunks…hopefully this will only require one or two components:
So you abused him when you called him cowardly a moment ago? Stop the presses…you better turn yourself in, they’re sure to get you and it might go easier.
No, your point, over and over again, has been that EVERYONE who practices Game is reprehensible. Then, when some people tried to submit the idea that SOME PEOPLE who practice Game are reprehensible you agreed with them while simultaneously vilifying them along with the rest.
Tangentially, your assertion that your concerns are legitimate has again popped up…along with a claim that you desire common ground. Since you have not made it in any way clear that you are okay with any aspect of Game, lets start the search for common ground with that.
Since you agree that Game is effective (hey…there’s some common ground we discovered pretty quickly), name two effective strategies from Game that you are fine with. These can be any two things you can think of about Game that we can point to as common ground, but it would be useful if you would pick something as central as possible, so we have an easier time trying to build off of it.
Meanwhile, we’ll continue to practice Game as is, until we can get the Denise Romano MA, EdM approved version put together. Consider it an incentive to work quickly.
No, he has put an enormous amount of energy into arguing that you have grossly misrepresented the nature of Game. You have stood against all its practitioners, so even the ones in favor of moral limitations on its use are now standing against you.
For the same reason feminists were and are perfectly comfortable with being confused with the likes of women like Andrea Dworkin. We can take extreme positions and still look moderate by comparison. This helps us get people to accept the actual truth where it lies, in between. We owe a great debt to the people who take the impossibly extreme position, since otherwise you wouldn’t bother taking us seriously enough to give us the time of day.
That we are still closer to fairness than the position of our feminist counterparts just goes to show how far the pendulum has swung.
I have not seen Hitler’s work, but he might have been a decent painter. I assume he wasn’t a great painter, or else he probably never would have gotten involved with politics.
Less tangentially, your comment here makes it evident that you have no desire to seek common ground yourself.
Your insistence on injecting an inane comment rather than an insightful one is duly noted. I expect you to note the same here about me.
I’m sorry he used the word “few” rather than “many”. I have, however, seen little evidence to contradict his stance on the matter.
He didn’t say Roissy didn’t count, and your lack of reading comprehension skills has been noted.
You are correct to say he doesn’t know. He’s assumed from the lack of reporting within the community on the matter.
You, similarly, have supplied no support of your claim that he is mistaken.
So far as I know he has never called you unamerican. He certainly hasn’t here. Your apparent desire to make it look like he is on a witch hunt is transparent at best. Instead, his argument here correctly notes that it cheapens the nature of violent physical abuse to use the same term in describing some of the practices to which you have applied the term.
I find it telling that you have no defense against his claim beyond reflecting it and referring to this as an “unnecessarily ridiculous experience”. At every stage in this process your responses have been entirely voluntary; yet you behave as if it is we who have attacked you.
Supply an example if you expect anyone to take this claim seriously.
Hmmm… “agood” as a single word in the middle of a sentence criticizing someone else’s usage of English. Almost certainly a typo, but still an ironic one. It seems that you didn’t bother spell-checking this at the very least, which says a great deal about the level of deliberation in your use of language.
But I digress. Obsidian did, after all, refer to your “statue” instead of “stature”, and an argument about typos is frivolous at best.
Instead I will turn to the interchangeable way in which you have used the terms Game, PUA, and MRA: three very different terms (to be fair, you seem to have been getting better about this). The first is a body of knowledge, the second is a group of people who identify themselves as the users of that body of knowledge (though there are many who believe in the former, but don’t identify with the latter). The third is a group only related by some common political motives to the ideas of the first term and the beliefs and behaviors of those who identify with the second term.
You have admitted that you believe Game to be effective; you have supplied no evidence as to why you believe the product to be faulty. At best this means you are suggesting that people replace one effective product with another, for essentially no reason. In fact, you are suggesting that they replace an effective product with an ineffective one.
No, what you are saying is more like: why don’t you stop buying all those foods that actually give you nutrition and jump on this new diet fad that everybody else is doing…never mind that what you are doing now is perfectly healthy, this is the fad that everybody who’s anybody is doing, so you should do it too.
Actually, after a quick perusal of the page for every use of the word abuse, abuser, and abusive, every single instance referred to a circumstance where the abuser was male, or supplied no specificity as to gender (except for your second example after your OCD person, whom you find to be simply a “very average, normal boss”–although I agree this is not abusive behavior, it was on your list of examples of enforcing order).
In particular, you give every appearance of believer that all abuser are male and all victims of abuse are female, in relationship abuse, in that post (you recognize abuse in other environments, but set that aside as a topic for another post, and leave that question androgynous).
And now we’re back to needing a full medical history in order to give consent. And women lying about their age and number of previous partners are rapists. But you have taken no interest in taking a stand against either of those groups.
You don’t know that. If she knew, but slept with him anyway, where does that leave your position?
This is why he says you make light of the term. We’ll accept emotional abuse just fine. Similarly psychological abuse. Neither of those are illegal in this country (though France is another story).
You’ll have something of an uphill battle on claiming that it’s verbal abuse though… to say nothing of sexual and physical abuse–both categories that you are mocking by calling infidelity by the same term.
Really. “In every way possible.” I guess that means that Game isn’t abuse, since he didn’t use it.
But seriously, we’re back at the point that, since women often lie about the number of sexual partners that they have had they are often committing rape by your definition, since they are not disclosing the degree to which they are exposing their partners to STDs, and the men might not consent if they knew the truth.
Hm. “You are a complete idiot.” And she says she doesn’t engage in ad hominem attacks.
You obviously need not speak on every issue, but your blog appears to be largely about domestic abuse, so you would think that the subject would be topical.
Yes, you’ve indicated that you think it was okay for her to attack her husband despite not being in immediate physical danger from him. Your stand “against abuse” is a shining example to the doublethink of abusers everywhere.
I have found no evidence linking “Dimitri” to Game. The term PUA seems to have been applied here with little relevance to Game as it is taught by those whom you have directly attacked. I will admit that I have not looked closely at the matter, however.
No, their mission is to bring attention to the fact that violence against women and violence against men have been repeatedly found to be about equally prevalent in heterosexual relationships, despite the fact that this is largely ignored by existing public policy. The exclusive focus on one direction is to the detriment of both sexes.
Yes, many women have chosen to rationalize her behavior instead of impartially applying the rules they have fought for.
Actually, you seem to be going about it in a largely sexist manner, which could certainly be seen as immoral. I will, however, concede that that is splitting hairs.
In other words, you are interested in attempting to further women’s dominance of the sexual marketplace, and have no interest in stopping actual IPV.
I don’t know if he “knows” it or not, but you certainly haven’t done so here, anywhere obvious on your website, or in your 1 Aug 2009 entry (as you claimed you had earlier in this comment).
At this point I’d just be going in circles on this one.
Or perhaps the problem is that you read only the posts you feel like reading in order to confirm your existing beliefs.
I expect he’s just being polite; the responses were only mind-boggling until you realize that many (almost all?) women believe in subjective morality–anything they or other women do must be right; anything that hurts their interests or the interests of other women must be wrong. This is, in part, because they have been taught to determine right and wrong through their emotions rather than the application of universal principles.
No post of that title is currently publicly available on your blog (or your search function is broken: it does not show up in a search for “response” “PUA” or “MRA”).
You don’t think that Elin Woods wished to have power over Tiger when she swung that golf club at him? If so, then Obsidian’s failure to identify your exact “life’s work” isn’t relevant to the point he was trying to make, that you’ve dodged.
I will admit that, in this instance, he has indeed sunk to your level–asserting he knows your motives and convictions. The motives and convictions you’ve claimed to have, amended by your selective choice of how to act upon them, are wrong.
On the contrary, relationship advice of the sort you support has been shoved down men’s throats.
Neither, he never said he was talking about women. Feminists–of both genders–made Roissy; the good parts, the bad parts, and everything in between.
In other words, exactly like it was before he said any of that.
It is encouraging that you at least ended your letter with civility, so I shall do the same.
Regards,
Arbitrary
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She who believes that credentials are more valuable than knowledge consistently uses the timeworn female form of debate:
Conflate, reframe, project.
It allows her to slay thousands of strawmen in her (self)righteous indignation.
She also uses another female tactic – extreme verbosity. The goal in this tactic is aquiessence (which is then equated with agreement) in order to just get her to shut the hell up.
It reminds me of what George Burns said was the secret to the sucess of Burns and Allen over the years:
” One day I turned to Gracie and asked how her mother was doing – she talked for 27 years.”
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Categorically not rape. If you take your checkbook to the electronics store and the clerk manages to talk you into an iPod, at some level you wanted to buy it. You may not have wanted to PAY for it, but you wanted to have it.
Watering down the definition of rape does no service to women. True rape is a horrendous violation and should make everyone with any sort of feeling shudder. Crying rape when you have buyer’s remorse makes men angry, and angry men dismiss crimes against women far more easily when true crimes are committed.
Reading this and other discussions like it makes me realize again why I wasn’t having sex in college and before marriage. I didn’t trust that I would be able to separate men who were playing me from men who were interested in me personally if sex was a possibility. Taking it off the table allowed for several things: 1) men who were only interested in that could waste no more of their time; 2) my other relationships with men could proceed on a more normal person-to-person footing, and 3) men who might be interested in me romantically had to see me without the cloudy lens of sex interfering. Honestly, there weren’t very many 3s, but I also never woke up in a frat house with my panties and several hours missing either.
As for The Game, if it means acting charmingly but sometimes a bit aloofly, being hard to contact or communicate with at times, offering little personal information about yourself or just in dribs and drabs to keep interest going, giving and then withdrawing, giving and withdrawing, offering compliments sparingly but sometimes generously, and basically controlling how often she sees you, where you go, and what you do together, I think I’ve been “gamed” once. He didn’t get that much out of me, just some dignity, but that’s the only “relationship” I’ve had that I bitterly curse some 16 years after it ended. I felt fully and completely manipulated and ashamed that I participated to fully in my own manipulation. If that’s what you’re after, game away.
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