My first post on “manly women of honor†praised country women who seem to be comfortable with the fact that they aren’t men—but yet aren’t pampered princesses, and who are ready to jump in and get their hands dirty when necessary. Women who don’t blink at driving tractors or getting muddy to the waist, but who allow their men to be men and manage to retain their femininity.
However, these are not the women who originally got me started thinking about Manly Women of Honor. About a year ago, I was working out at my gym when I looked over and saw a young woman with a shaved head. She was wearing loose fitting tank top, presumably made for a man, and some military looking pants. Very “G.I. Jane.†Few women who are actually in the military seem to have shaved heads, and I was in downtown Portland. So I doubted she was actually in the military.
Dyke. Probably thinks she’s “just like a man.â€
That was my first response.
But then I thought about it some more. Was I being unfair? Unreasonable?
That stereotype was based on my experiences with urban manly women and lesbians, and it probably would’ve been accurate. Unlike the country women I mentioned above, city dykes and other manly chicks like to act and dress tough, but are really far more emotional and tend to act more like hypersensitive, spoiled girls than their tough (heterosexual) country cousins. I’ll offer their bumper stickers as Exhibit A, and this famous letter from “pregnant man†Thomas Beatie as Exhibit B. Such women are normally hostile toward masculine men and seek to change or neuter male behavior.
But the questions that came to mind that day were hypothetical.
Is it ever acceptable for a woman to try to “man-up?†And if so, under what circumstances? What kind of manly woman could I respect on a personal level? Is there a path of honor for women who feel they have little in common with other women, and who prefer the things and the ways of men? Perhaps a woman like Calamity Jane, as portrayed in the excellent Deadwood HBO series—a woman who squares up like a man, is prepared to fight like one and who asks for no special favors.
As a man who yearns for the return of heroic masculinity, codes of honor and male dignity, I could sympathize with a woman who found herself attracted to these romantic ideals and who then resolved to emulate and embody them as best she could. Charitably, I could imagine that for a few early feminists, a womanly reverence for traditional manhood was a good intention that paved the road to the emasculation that modern feminism demands. If a woman wants to live by the laws of men, that seems admirable enough. However, if she decides she must change men or redefine masculinity so that it better accommodates her desire to live a manly life, her attraction to masculinity has become cancerous.
A true manly woman of honor—a mannish woman whom I could truly respect and admire—would have to conduct herself in a way that is complementary to masculinity, not corrosive or hostile to it. Here are a few guidelines I propose to distinguish a manly woman of honor from a female enemy of men.
- A Manly Woman of Honor acknowledges that she is not a man, but a rare woman who prefers manly pursuits and ideals to womanly one.
- A Manly Woman of Honor does not believe she is better than men at being a man, though she may well prove herself to be better than some men at doing some things men do.
- A Manly Woman of Honor does not want to change men; she admires them and prefers their codes and ideals to the codes and ideals preferred by women.
- A Manly Woman of Honor does not seek special accommodations or handicaps on account of her sex; she acknowledges that she is a woman playing a man’s game and wants to play it by the exact same rules. If she does well, good for her!
- A Manly Woman of Honor does not want to be regarded as a man; she wants to earn the respect of men and be regarded as a woman of honor.
- The Manly Woman of Honor does not need to redefine intelligence to appear smart, she doesn’t have to redefine strength to be strong and she doesn’t ask men for special favors. In fact, her sense of honor would make this impossible.
- Like men, a Manly Woman of Honor asks for help only when she truly needs it—after giving her best on her own.
This is only a preliminary list of guidelines, and I welcome suggestions and comments.
I have met women whom I would consider Manly Women of Honor. Far from believing that women are “the same as or better than men,†they are often acutely aware of just how rare they are among women. They seem to find it difficult to relate to other females for this reason. While I often rant about women who are kidding themselves or who live in a fantasy world or who expect men to happily live by the double standards women craft and then change at whim—I think it’s important to be fair and I don’t want to tar all women with the same brush.
There are women who have made themselves the enemies of men, and they should be treated as such. But if a woman wants to hold herself to the same standards as men, and doesn’t need to redefine masculinity or ask for special accommodations, well, more power to her.
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{ 93 comments… read them below or add one }
Thank you for this.
Would you rank Joan of Ark among those?
I’d probably put Marie Curie amongst these women. They are rare gems indeed — probably rarer today than ever.
From the internet, a site to fit my mood:
http://www.despair.com/viewall.html
The original Demotivators.
Joan of Ark?
I dunno…this may offend some, but I’ve always liked the crazy eyed Milla Jovovich portrayal of her in The Messenger. I tend to suspect that people who saw visions and heard voices in the past were as nutty as the people who do the same today–people were just less cynical then.
However, I could be wrong. Maybe the crazy side of her myth was played up, and she was merely a patriotic woman fighting alongside men.
Another post idea I had was how the masuline/feminine dynamics play out in even homosexual relationships…
During my late teens I did fairly well as a javelin thrower and managed selection in national teams on numerous occasions even though most of my competition was a decade my senior.
I had the privilege of training with a lady called Bev Francis for a couple of years. She was, at the time a world class phot putter and discus thrower. As can be seen in that recent photo Bev is still very strong and masculine. Today she runs the successful Powerhouse Gym in New York in partnership with her husband Steve Weinberger. They have two kids.
To this day I have great respect for admiration for Bev. She was a woman who was willing to break the mold. She endured enormous criticism for her desire and willingness to push boundaries. She was treated as a freak show but persisted relentlessly towards the goals she had set for herself.
She also had no illusions about her ability to compete physically with men. This is something common to the elite female athletes I’ve encountered over the years. While our communities more generally tend to kid themselves that women are as capable as men physically the women who actually excel know better. I remember Bev telling me that being told she “ran like a man” was the greatest compliment she’d received – because “men run perfectly”.
I see a lot of discontent around the mens rights movement regarding women competing in mens sport. The reality is that none of them do it to beat the men. That’s something that comes from the ignorant. They actually do it to be beaten. They get sick of winning by the proverbial length of the straight. They want to chase for a change. Only that way can they learn and improve.
TG,
I prefer not to frame it in those terms, because the net effect is the emasculation of one of the guys. (I speak against, but never for, homosexual women–they’re basically another species)
I’ve been with the same guy for 12 years and I’ve cut off good friends completely for referring to him as my “wife” one too many times. I consider it on par with calling a man’s wife a whore. If you tell them it’s not cool and they keep doing it, at some point you either have to punch them or cut them off.
Sometimes you have a stark, gendered difference between homosexual couples. Sometimes you don’t. Sometimes, it’s a “Greek” age differentiated power balance.
Basically, in any long term relationship, there’s going to be division of household labor and some sort of unequal power balance. The guy in my house who watches ESPN 6 hours a day is not my wife because he does my dishes and laundry. He does them because I’m a self involved slob who would live in a pile of garbage. He’s still a guy.
With homosexuals, I tend to look at it more as an alpha/beta thing.
gwallan -
The woman you’re describing is pretty much exactly what I had in mind when writing the post.
While it’s admirable on the woman’s part, I think it’s a good idea to keep certain things separate. Men need their own space and they need to be able to be men without the influence of women–and sports is one of the few remaining areas where that happens. And as you basically said, for a woman competing against a man–it’s all about her. The men get little if anything out of it.
I know a girl like that.
By the way, I recommended her this piece. She is fluent in english so language wont be a problem.
I’ve met lots (at least 4) women like the one’s your describing in the military. I always think of them as honorary men. They are humble compared with the average “independent” woman and aware of how they stack up as “men” (usually somewhere in the middle of the hierarchy) and often don’t respect a lot of other women. I would have one of them watch my back than a mangina or cowardly guy.
These women are usually attractive and get their choice of alpha guys because men respect them. They stand out because they are so much more capable than other women. (i.e. no whining, can do actual hard work etc.). Any guy who finds a woman like this is very lucky.
@Welmer
I do not diparage Marie Curie’s achievements but find it amusing that they are harped upon so much that more children’s books are written about Marie Curie than any other male scientist or inventor ( while Pierre’s works and her father’s influence go unmentioned and that she got her first at the insistence of Pierre and the second prize would have been shared with Pierre had he not died).Dug a little further and found it interesting-
http://www.hypatiamaze.org/marie/c_bio_p3.html
http://omgili.com/newsgroups/soc/men/10737561-ce95-4586-8e05-a9cbcb201767t13g2000yqtgooglegroupscom.html
Going to school with Madame Curie and Mr. Einstein: gender roles in children’s science biographies-
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g6121418t1h58087/
And finally this travesty-
http://www.springerlink.com/content/1591012m1l760308/
Nothing is free from the BS that surrounds us today and even kids are taught along those lines before they even know what they have gotten into.Not only children’s books but even standard text books have to have this history section where this BS has to be inserted.
Just the other day my friend was telling me how Marie Curie had discovered radioactivity. I had to politely correct him by telling that it was someone else, someone who shared that first nobel prize with her.Where did he get his info from? Most probably his high school physics or chemistry book.
A shaved head is a practical hairstyle for most purposes in the modern world. I know several Buddhist nuns who shave their heads.
Hanna Reitsch
It bothers me that you seem to only be able to support or respect your so-called “manly” women. What about women who you don’t consider “manly?” What about men who don’t enjoy your “manly” pursuits? Are these people you would never respect or honor? Shouldn’t all individuals be admired and loved? That’s what we ask of our peers, isn’t it? To treat us with basic human decency. That’s what a person deserves, and not just a person who fits some mythic or elusive “manly” or “masculine” set of traits and characteristics. It’s your kind of thinking that serves only to continue the all-too-familiar division our society has set up between genders. Shouldn’t we be working toward a reality in which there is no game played between men and women? Shouldn’t we be drawing attention toward and celebrating our diversity, rather than condemning men and women who fall short of your illustrious ideals? Frankly, your notion of “manly” men and women places masculinity above femininity – and that’s a hierarchy to which none of us should be childish enough to subscribe.
You certainly did not read “manly women of honor part I”.
“country women who seem to be comfortable with the fact that they aren’t men—but yet aren’t pampered princesses, and who are ready to jump in and get their hands dirty when necessary.”
That´s is not true,
Men don´t like women “so called manly women” like these, they see them as mates, and companion, but they aren´t attracted to them.
Men seek femenine women, and women who are much different to them. men seek the essence of womanhood, and those one described doesn´t appeal to them as to have a date, or a relationship
Tamora Pierce’s series Lady Knight and Protector of the Small are both excellent examples of Manly Women. Alana of the first series works five times as hard as the boys and as such becomes not only a knight of the realm, but Champion to the king. Good books, and admirable female role-models.
Men grow up, Lara. Nowadays, I find myself disgusted by over-the-top displays of femininity. I might actually consider spending time with a woman like the ones Jack describes, but I have no use for the squealing, half-naked little trollops one finds all over the place these days.
@ Lara,
I thought Jack was talking about “admiring” these women.
Not everything is about dating.
People,men *or* women, with honor are rare. Precious.
Greg –
I guess you’re going to stay bothered.
Women who are not manly and who are not trying to be men are not covered in the scope of this essay. I hear they make good wives and mothers.
Males who put the word manly in sarcasm quotes are part of the problem.
Case-by-case basis. Generally speaking, you can’t honor men who have no honor.
No.
What’s this “we” shit, pilgrim?
Respect should be earned, not given freely and unconditionally. I’m not your mommy.
That, and all-too-familiar “physical reality.”
Hilarious.
Shouldn’t you get back to commenting on Huffington Post?
Thanks for your string of left wing cliches, and the finger wagging scold at the end.
I was imagining a chorus of John Lennon’s “Imagine” while I was reading it. Sung by African children, probably adopted by celebrities.
Fruitcake.
Soap –
Exactly. This post was not about dating.
It was about distinguishing women who like to play at being men from Manly Women of Honor.
Welmer:
this is not a question of rationality, you can think about some thing, but feel another, you are atracted to another completely different: I am sure you like determined woman with strong personality and assertiveness, and hate manipulations, but you like them to be femenine, not manly.
Jack,
Great fisking re: greg
I understand, while reading his post, my eyes just sort of glazed over — or it may have been the fog of unicorn farts.
I insist, you don´t like (or admire) a “manly” woman; you like (or admire) a woman with certain features (self determination, who drives herself with principles and is smart – and beautiful if possible-), but in a feminine way. You don´t like a manly woman for a relashionship of any kind, what is more, you secretly despise her.
So now you’re a mind reader?
This is a bit of a dilemma. However, I’d like to point out that I didn’t necessarily have women who move and look like men in mind when I read the post, but rather those who have a manly sense of honor, justice and duty. I wouldn’t say that it is necessary, or even helpful, to have a “strong personality” or be assertive to be this kind of woman — plenty of very feminine women (and men) are “in your face” and have “personality.”
What Jack is getting at in this post, I think, is the core concept of virtue. Virtue, as we know, derives from the Latin root “vir,” which means male. Virile is another word derived from vir. Manly qualities were so treasured that when a woman possessed them this was seen as a positive thing, hence our concept of the “virtuous woman.” Unfortunately, like so many other things, the meaning has been twisted and worn by time, and the word virtue has lost its strong, early association with manliness.
As our society degenerates into the farcical, as evidenced by daytime network television, a few of us are reaching back to that core concept. It is essentially a spiritual thing, although it has physical attributes.
I’d say that a woman with these qualities need not be butch, although she may be, but she embodies the original meaning of virtue. She esteems above all the masculine concepts and attributes that have brought us civilization, progress and the elevation of humanity from beast to something higher.
No, she’s an internet psychologist.
That was in reply to zed.
I observe life, and reactions, that´s all.
you can convince yourselves you like women like the ones describes above, but you don´t, maybe you can treat them as friends, but you cánt see them as a a real woman.
Remember we seek on the other sex the opposite.
One more thing, lieutenant Rippley in Alien is a “real woman with principles”, not a manly woman, do not get wrong.
And another thing…a woman can have a sense of justice and duty, and feel and be deeply a woman, not a “manly” woman, that is a complete bullshit, it you thing men only (only, wahahaha¡¡), have this sense you are completely wrong and a kind of fool
Lara-
Women only have honor when it feels right. Real honor is about doing what feels wrong, but doing it because it is right.
Justice? They can have a sense of it, but it is often distorted.
Duty? Only because of guilt, something feminism is successfully stripping from all female consciousness.
Yes there are exception. Not all women are like that. Not all sharks will eat you also. Don’t blame me if I choose not to take a swim.
Every cool girl, like one of the guys cool, that I and others knew growing up, remember what they always espoused?
“I have way more guy friends than girl friends. I like hanging out with boys more than girls because they are laid back and have more fun. There is less drama.”
Why would that be Lara?
Jack Donovan January 15, 2010 at 14:15
“I tend to suspect that people who saw visions and heard voices in the past were as nutty as the people who do the same today”
Jack, why do you characterise people who ‘hear voices’ or ‘see visions’ as nutty? This is a very wide spread phenomenon. You calling them all ‘nutty’?
When I think ‘women of honour’ I think about my grandmothers. They were not ‘manly’. They were very comfortable in their skin as women. One had 5 kids and the other 6. Their children were born in the 37-50 time frame and things were tough in Australia back then. Damn tough. But these two women worked hard for many years raising their kids and then helping with the grandkids, then great grandkids. Ones had a bad husband (comitted suicide in the end so he was not a happy camper) and she worked as the cleaner at my school for years.
What these women said was ‘law’ in our families. They disciplined the girls as much as the boys. One famous story is one of them ran onto a football field and attacked a player who had knocked out my dad. She bashed him with an umbrella in the middle of the field. She was a tiny woman but that did not deter her. They both had a very sharp tounge and would really give anyone who did something wrong a working over.
One thing I remember is that they were very, very fair. When someone did something wrong they were punished fairly and had to make amends. I was on the end of plenty of that! They NEVER complained about anything. I never heard a complaint come out of either of their mouths in my entire life and they had plenty to complain about compared to modern women.
Nothing was ever too much trouble for them for their grandkids. I remember we used to shoot rabbits and ask one of them to cook them for us. She had 100 recipes for rabbit because in the 40s that was pretty much the only meat to feed the kids. I recall her laughing at how she never thought she would cook another rabbit and how funny it was us grandkids would prefer her rabbit to a piece of steak or lamb. Food cooked by nanna was ‘made with love’ and was ‘special’. We would clamour for more praising her cooking and telling her how wonderful she was. For some reason women now think a ‘career’ is better than the love and adoration of a tribe of grandchildren. Women of honour like that seem to have disappeared.
Does anyone else find it odd that the only thing women seem to have to offer these days is that they aren’t poisonous? We all know that they are relying on the inherent attraction men have for women – you know, that desire to “rape” them – to drive men to continue digging through all the turds to find their tootsie roll.
Y’know, maybe women should start giving some thought to defending men’s right to find them attractive and desirable.
Just a suggestion.
Jaber,
“Real honor is about doing what feels wrong, but doing it because it is right.”
My opinion? Real honour is about doing what you said you would do, what you gave your word you would do, even if it is not good for you. Indeed, even if it kills you.
One of the things I was very well known for in Australia was being a man of honour, a man of my word. I have been given very large deals by some of the biggest companies in Australia based on my handshake and my word I WOULD get the job done.
One time my boss, who was the MD for Asia Pacific for my company, pulled a guy off a project over-riding me and risking the project. The CIO of the client (one of the largest conglomerates in Australia) had him over to his office and said:
“GM gave me his word he would get this project done. You had better not make a liar of this man.”
I was sitting there when he said it and he was not best pleased. My boss was livid he had to sit through such a hostile tongue lashing from such a big customers but I told him every time he broke my word for me he’d could look forward to the same.
Honour is really simple in my book. Do what you said you would do. Don’t give your word to something you do not want to do. This is why women have no honour. They simply will not do what they said they would do. They will tell you why they can no longer do what they said they would do. Standard.
@Lara- I have heard the phrase “honorary man” offered as a compliment to a woman who does not play victim, is no nonsense, and does her best to live by good virtues and manners, even when doing so hurt or didn’t earn her brownie points. When this phrase was used, it was not meant to denigrate a woman’s femininity, and often the women this phrase was used for are quite feminine, but instead was to lift the woman out of the realms of the common, conniving, gossipy, morally relative character that makes up large portions of women. Such a phrase is a sincere compliment, not something to get bent out of shape about.
Have you ever read the Proverbs 31 passage about the woman of virtue? If not, take a look. This is a woman who is strong, capable, and mature in a way feminists can never hope to be. She is industrious, honorable, virtuous, and can get done what needs to get done without complaining. Some might say she is fairly manly, especially compared to certain ideals about femininity today, but she is all woman, a good wife and mother, despite any manly traits she might posses.
you can convince yourselves you like women like the ones describes above, but you don´t, maybe you can treat them as friends, but you cánt see them as a a real woman.
A man need not have a romantic relationship with a woman to be “liked” by him. Being a “friend” may be different than being somebody’s romantic interest, but it is still a special relationship to be a friend. What precisely this has to do with being a “real woman” is a bit lost on me. Can we only be “real women” with those who are sexually attracted to us?
Welmer -
I like your use of “vir” there and that’s a word I want to research more thoroughly because it’s an important concept in understanding manhood.
Globalman –
This post was about Manly Women of Honor–basically my response to the question, “when is it OK for a woman to act manly?”
I like your examples of Women of Honor, which would be a different subject, because womanly honor is different from masculine honor. Different gender ideals.
I’m not sure I agree with that, Jack, except to say that maybe womanly honor might be a subset of masculine honor. Keeping one’s word, not lying, standing up for those you love, are things which a woman can do as well as a man. Being willing to lay down one’s own life in defense of others may be more masculine than feminine, but having known many women in my youth who I would consider “honorable”, there was nothing they did which was different than what a man might do and was uniquely feminine.
I think women can follow the 10 commandments and the golden rule as well as any man. I know that some men here consider them lesser beings than men, but I am not so willing to let them off the hook. I would prefer to have high expectations of them and hold them accountable for their actions and try to develop them toward the best they can be rather than accept any pathetic offering as the best they can manage – because they are “just women.”
zed January 16, 2010 at 11:13
“Does anyone else find it odd that the only thing women seem to have to offer these days is that they aren’t poisonous? ”
No, I do not find that odd. Women have nothing to offer. On the Sydney Morning Herald relationships blog I have asked for ONE thing that a woman could offer me that might be of value to me. The ONLY response to date has been ‘I will make your dreamd come true’. What does that even mean?
‘Bachelor for Life’ has asked for ONE reason why a man might marry. The best response, and I shit you not, has been “Just because we can’t come up with a good reason to do something does not mean that there are good reasons NOT to do that something.” At which the men ‘fell about laughing’ because we have constantly presented all the negatives of marriage.
Simply put. Women offer sex and lovemaking for those guys who know the difference. Period. They no longer offer children because the children are no longer HIS. So, if they are not to look like the whores they really are all they can say is “I won’t be as bad for you as the next woman” which is about as enrolling an argument as crushed glass is appetising.
Eastern women know this is the case and they are quite open about it. Take this ‘gem’ for example. I asked my fav what, exactly, she offered a husband other than sex. The conversation went like this:
Fav. “Because I am one of the most beautiful women he can take me to parties and events and show me off to all his friends as his ‘beautiful wife’ and they will all admire him for being such a ‘studd’ to land such a beautiful woman as his wife!” (ie. She will boost his ego and social status among the men.)
GM: “But you have already said that after marriage the amount of sex you would give would drop a lot. He wouldn’t really be much of a ‘studd’ once you were married, would he?”
Fav: “Yes, that’s correct, but his friends don’t know that and he won’t tell them!”…she said with a wicked grin and a gleam in her eye. She knows exactly what she is doing! LOL!
@ Hestia
Well said.
@ Lara
Again, not everything is about dating.
@zed-I would prefer to have high expectations of them and hold them accountable for their actions and try to develop them toward the best they can be rather than accept any pathetic offering as the best they can manage – because they are “just women.â€
This would be ideal. I strive to hold myself to high standards, even ones that have been dubbed “manly” (said as an insult), and surround myself with worthy people who do the same for themselves and with whom I can share mutual accountability. With only one life to live, always striving to be better, to do good to others, and being prepared to handle whatever life throws in your path is of the utmost importance imho.
Women need to be held more accountable than they are, not simply said to be amoral, as low standards are causing great havoc and pain for so many. Equal accountability under the law and in the eyes of the culture would be ideal, but until that happens individual women need to hold themselves to higher standards and not excuse fellow women who do evil deeds.
Now my first comment is showing up. If my second one to Lara shows up as well, could it be deleted please? Thanks.
Ah, but in 21st century feminist Newspeak that is exactly what it does mean, Hestia.
Years ago I had a woman who I was under the mistaken impression was a good friend nail me with the accusation “You don’t see me as a woman!” What she meant was that as a married woman, I did not see her as a potential romantic partner.
The Vagina Monologues says that women are their vaginas, and I think there may be more truth under that than most people realize.
I’ve said many times, and I will say it again simply because I can – the unbelievable overt displays of their sexuality by women these days is because feminism has stripped them of every other aspect of a uniquely female identity. A lawyer is a lawyer, not a woman. The only way women have to feel like women is by being sexual.
When a man actually does as feminists have demanded men do and no longer see women as sexual beings, women without those other forms of female identity go through a sort of emotional/identity vertigo.
Yeah, I deleted the second one. First one went into spam for some reason (probably the link flagged it, although usually it takes several links to do that). The spam filter is a necessary annoyance. It may not work perfectly, but without it we’d have dozens of spam comments per day.
No one has given you authority to speak for or about what “men do or don’t like.”
And, since you are so clearly clueless about the matter, it would behoove you to desist from making such a complete ass and fool of yourself.
There’s something that has been irking me for a while whenever I read these “Manly Woman of Honor” posts.
Are you saying that women can’t be honorable and earn respect without being “manly”? That femininity in and of itself can’t have it’s own honor (that doesn’t revolve around chastity)?
I’m thinking that the “manly” in “manly woman” refers to manly characteristics and drive. But I wonder…what makes something “manly”? Is it really “manly” or can it be found in both sexes? As for getting dirty and doing jobs that are male oriented, that I can understand.
I know that you’re distinguishing a “manly woman” from a “manly chick”, but I would like to think that the guidelines you posted also describe a true woman.
Hestia:
the way some men refers to women denigrate us deeply: I cant stand this, I cant stand how they speak about us so freely and without giving a damn on the damage it causes. I don´t know you Hestia, but I meet many man and woman of principles (no talking about honor as this is very old fashioned).
Maybe a woman wont´go to war or expose herself in war or a hard work(much less than man but this is simply a matter of historical roles and customs) but a woman can expose her life in having a baby when there is a risk; men an women are differents, but human beings. Gossipy..relativeness is the state of most women?? I don´t think so. I thing you are being rude and rough to women. The vistuous woman is not “manly” Why woman shoud be manly for being virtuous, for good sake, many women are truly, hardworkers and good people, and aren´t manly. calling women (I am a woman) manly is an insult
Ok, I think this answers one of my points. I only saw this after I posted, when the page updated. I started typing my comment earlier but didn’t actually post it until later.
What damage? I don’t see women being hauled off to jail because men give their opinions of them. Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods, but here in the US a man is far more likely to be damaged – in a real sense, as in sometimes killed – by a woman’s words than the other way around.
Then so is calling them “virtuous,” because that’s what virtuous means.
Zed January 16, 2010 at 11:29,
Hmmmm….I never looked at it that way before.
Lara,
You pretty much summed up the thoughts I’ve had since coming here lol.
I’m still questioning as to whether some of the complaints about women are as wide-spread as they say (key word here is “some”), but anyway.
I think that post is talking about when it’s ok for women to act manly and the difference between a manly woman of honor and any other who acts manly. I don’t think it’s saying that acting manly is a woman’s highest, virtuous, state of being, so to speak.
zed -
Honor is a tricky word, because it is used so casually these days. It can mean anything from old school dueling and “affaires d’honneur” to getting good grades in school, as with “honor roll.”
When I talk about honor I’m not using it as a synonym for being a good person, I’m talking about a more traditional gender-specific version that Welmer referred to in his mention of the word “vir.” My understanding of it comes from the book Honor: A History by James Bowman, which I will probably review for this site sooner or later as I need to re-read it.
When I talk to men about women of honor, a lot of them bring up the Queen of Sparta from the movie 300. A 2-dimensional comic book heroine, to be sure, but for some reason a lot of guys seem to agree that she is an awesome ideal for the woman of honor. Strong–even fierce, when need be–but not a man, and not trying to undermine men.
zed,
Does anyone else find it odd that the only thing women seem to have to offer these days is that they aren’t poisonous? We all know that they are relying on the inherent attraction men have for women – you know, that desire to “rape†them – to drive men to continue digging through all the turds to find their tootsie roll.
Y’know, maybe women should start giving some thought to defending men’s right to find them attractive and desirable.
I don’t think I am understanding what you mean here in the send paragraph in reference to the first. Would you explain further?
Lara said:”no talking about honor as this is very old fashioned”.
*This* is the problem. Far to many people believe this in this modern world.
I think honor is doing what is right,even when it hurts,even when no one but you will know that you did the right thing.
Certainly we are not perfect,but honor is an ideal because it challenges you to do better.
@Learner – give it some thought. Maybe something will occur to you.
Globalman:
Ah, the plague of wabbits that afflicted Australia.
And then it was toads!
http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0417-tina_butler.html
Rene:
manly comes from man.
a woman who acts straight, fair and with ethics (ethic principles are more common and easy to understand nowadays than honor), isn´t a man-ly woman, she is a true, real woman, that´s all.
Welmer:
the psychological damage is deep and profound: Our mothers and grandmothers didnt believe themselves as capable or doing nothing except giving birth and raising children (the most important human achievement,
after all), General attitudes are quite important, the damage is there in workplace, in opportunities and posibilities, even in the thoughts that us women have over ourselves. I will deeply be against those considering us less morally concerned.
man-honor, what a joke: in one and a half year time four marriages in my environment have split because the acknowledged infidelity of husbands ( yeah, pretty good “manly honor”¡¡)
Lara, I think your ’1′ key is upside down.
@Snark
I think she might be writing with Spanish as her browser’s primary language.
Shark, I´n not english-native spoken so express yourself not in a cryptic terms, please
Lara,
If you’re going to be a Fierce Feminist Warrior, you really need to grow a thicker skin. How do you expect women to be taken seriously if you’re going to get your feelings hurt over something this inconsequential? In any case, do you actually think anyone here cares about your feelings? Nobody knows who the hell you are.
You are acting like the worst kind of female stereotype right now. Stop it.
You GO, grrl!!
@zed-I’ve said many times, and I will say it again simply because I can – the unbelievable overt displays of their sexuality by women these days is because feminism has stripped them of every other aspect of a uniquely female identity.
When a man actually does as feminists have demanded men do and no longer see women as sexual beings, women without those other forms of female identity go through a sort of emotional/identity vertigo.
This is true, but a bit difficult for me to understand. My Dad said there is no honor or goodness in flashing skin and I have made it a point to live by his moral instructions. Not using and abusing your sexuality could be included on a list of womanly honor.
Dressing modestly and using sexuality only in appropriate ways allows for more self-respect and also a better feminine identity IME. There are many roles I’ve served in in my life that have made feel all girl/woman in different ways than “sex object” ever could be. Wife, lover, mother, daughter, sister, friend, babysitter, caretaker, nurse, confidant, cook & baker, volunteer, you get the point. Bringing meals and cleaning the house of an elderly neighbor recovering from surgery makes me feel like a woman. Helping care for my sister after she had major surgery did too, as did being pregnant, breastfeeding through the early nursing issues and getting through the painful experience that was natural childbirth without the help of drugs, in very different ways than the “lover” role does.
When women flaunt skin and make their femininity all about sex, they are missing out on something important in life: living their lives as “real” women in the true sense of the word, rather than the twisted sex is femininity that feminists have sold us.
if you don´t like what I say, just scroll down my comments.
Hestia:
womanly honor (or ethic principles) that´s much better¡¡
@21guns-
Lara,
If you’re going to be a Fierce Feminist Warrior, you really need to grow a thicker skin. How do you expect women to be taken seriously if you’re going to get your feelings hurt over something this inconsequential? In any case, do you actually think anyone here cares about your feelings? Nobody knows who the hell you are.
You are acting like the worst kind of female stereotype right now. Stop it.
Well said! You deserve half of my slave-free chocolate bar for that. If only I could share through the internet.
When women flaunt skin and make their femininity all about sex, they are missing out on something important in life: living their lives as “real†women in the true sense of the word, rather than the twisted sex is femininity that feminists have sold us.
your are completely right, but take into account that big industries on fashion, cosmetics, plastic surgery, diet and so on have a very strong influence in women. We are taught from cradle to be sexy and desirable as the most important thing in our lives, I agree a change must come in , but how to change the pervert message of media about this?
Hestia: tell me…in what sense i am acting like the worst female sterotype?
just explain it to me, as a woman.
thanks
@Lara- The answer is really quite simple. Women can stop all of the nonsense by refusing to allow big corporations to influence them. They can stop slathering their faces in toxic chemicals, cease chopping up their bodies in the ORs of plastic surgeons, and wear clothing that covers up their breasts. Instead women can spend their time exploring their femininity in ways other than being a sex object. They can look outward and address the needs of others. Maybe reading stories to children in the hospital or helping an elderly person with yard-work. Women can beautify their minds by studying a subject they are passionate about or learning some useful talent or skill. They can develop their character and virtue and learn to offer something to the world other than their outward beauty.
Women can also take a good hard look at themselves and take responsibility for their actions. The media doesn’t make women pay billions into the cosmetic and fashion industries, women hand over the money themselves and need to start taking responsibility for this.
Try turning off the TV. Works wonders.
Hestia didn’t say that, I did. You are acting like a female stereotype by:
1. Putting women in the role of victim by claiming “psychological damage” from some men flapping their jaws, and
2. Taking things personally that have *nothing* to do with you.
@Lara-Hestia: tell me…in what sense i am acting like the worst female sterotype?
21Guns explained this quite well. You are wanting to play big and strong until somebody upsets you, then you seek to shush them up because they are hurting you. This is a common attitude in Today’s Woman, as women, especially in the West, are not too formidable and are unable to take criticism, though they can certainly do a good job slinging mud and insults at others. Either one can handle debate, nasty parts and all, or they can’t.
To be “strong” requires not only the ability and desire to speak one’s mind, but also the humility to gracefully accept criticisms and hear others out. Several of the men hear have offered criticism to me before as I was being illogical or missing an important point, as have people in “real life”, including my husband. Such words are constructive criticism which shouldn’t be seen as insulting but as something that helps the person in the wrong to step back, ponder, and refine their argument/views/opinion.
zed,
@Learner – give it some thought. Maybe something will occur to you..
Okay, I can ask my “man stuff” interpreter. Unfortunately for me and my overloaded gray matter I did give it some thought, yet no occurences of “something” were forth coming, thus the question.
Hestia: totally agree, but live in the real world.
In my country, mass media, they expect women to be a pocelain doll (dumb at all).
publicity is more than a tv commercial, it creates models and steryotypes, it is all around us, craving our minds (men, women, children)
I agree there´s something more to do for a woman, and is much more required as personality, culture, a smart conversation and a decent look, but this means going against the mainstream, really complex.
@Lara
The media only influences you if you let it.
I see many media images of men acting stupid. But *I* am not influenced by that. I turn it off.
OK, here are a couple of hints –
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/15/false-rape-accusation-awareness-steps-toward-understanding-and-avoiding/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/16/considerations-of-the-denise-romano-worldview/
All sex is “rape”, according to the most vocal women on the subject. In any of these discussions do you see women giving a counter-voice saying “no, it isn’t, we like having men desire us.”
No, they simply take it for granted that men do, and will continue to do so no matter how much effort women put into poisoning the experience for men. They assume that men’s sex drive is so powerful, and that men are so one dimensional, that they don’t need to offer anything more than the implied hint of sex, and men will continue to beat paths to their doors and stand at the foot of Rapunzel’s tower begging for a chance to “get lucky.”
Now, women have brainwashed me. I am convinced that women, in general, hate sex and only engage in it for the power it gives them to manipulate men and get their egos stroked. As an example, I will give this experience I wrote about some time ago – http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/31/the-biological-context-of-sexuality-and-mating/#comment-7091
(read a few of the follow-up comments under that, as well)
Or, perhaps I should take the time to write out the story of a grossly obese woman at a weekend retreat I once attended being led by other women to act in the most disgusting manner I have ever seen – becoming a really sad and sickening caricature of female sexuality. Throughout the weekend no one could comment about anything that was longer than it was wide without her making some reference to sticking it you-know-where. She took to jumping up and screeching “Big ones line up, little ones bunch up.”
If all sex is a crime, as Romano and the culture at large regard it, and if the only reason women act sexually is to gain male attention with no reciprocal interest on their part and no intent on following through with what they are implying, why in the hell should men continue to want them?
After hearing tens of thousands of jokes by women over how stupid men are for desiring them, I now tend to agree. I once thought that my desire for a woman was an expression of the highest possible regard for her.
But, when I discovered that it is really either “rayyyyyype” or “sexual harassment” I had to change what I thought about it.
Lara,
I absolutely agree but that’s not what the post is saying (at least I don’t think so). From Jack:
I don’t completely agree with Jack’s choice of words, but I understand what he’s getting at here. “Manly” would mean “doing things traditionally done by men.” “Honor” means “doing aforementioned things without complaining or expecting special treatment or attempting to change the rules.”
@Learner- All healthy male sexual expression is criminalized in our culture. The leftist feminists consider all men potential rapists while their right wing sisters believe all men are potential adulterers. Both are justified by the “visual nature” of men and the fact they (typically) have a higher sex drive than do women. There is nothing wrong with either parts of man’s nature; they are part of normal male sexuality, but female supremacists have turned these natural expressions into crimes and elevate female sexuality as being normal. Well, a sanitized form of female sexuality anyway.
Men were made to appreciate female beauty and to respond to it. Such responses are noble and help us make new life and move forward as humanity. A man admiring a beautiful woman is as natural as admiring the beautiful view of a mountain or flower filled valley, even a spiritual experience at times, and a positive part of human life. Even many women can appreciate, in different ways, the beauty of women. Think of the portraits of beautiful women than hang in museum, bits of beauty many different people respond to in some way. Not all responses to female beauty are supposed to culminate in some act with the admired person, at times the longing and desire will be the extent of the experience and sometimes possession can even ruin the magic (consider the idea of the muse), but the vast majority are healthy and should be seen as positive, perhaps flattering. Beauty is something special, an experience that can take us to a higher plane in life, whether we be the attracted or the attractor.
Considering this normal, natural response to be a negative one, as is done today, has criminalized male sexuality and left it open for abuse. Women dress and behave in ways that allow them to use their beauty power over men, men whom they have no intention of sharing themselves with, all to earn favors or manipulate men into performing for them. This is a terrible abuse of something good, a perversion, and is causing a great rift in gender relations, one that is already breeding hatred and upset and will continue to until it is stopped.
If a Man is “allowed” by a woman to be “a man”, he is NOT a man from beginning with. A Man is a Man regardless of some women’s “permission”.
Yes it is: in a country where Men think that they’re not Men unless some women “allows” them to be… in such a country, emasculated men are replaced by manly-women. And until these men thinks that there must come a woman to “allow” them their masculinity, nothing will ever be fixed.
AF –
Agreed. That was a poor choice of words and I’ll pay attention to that in the future.
zed,
Thank you for taking the time to answer and make the connection clear enough for me to understand, I appreciate it.
Hestia- Agreed.
@ Hestia
you are the first woman I’ve ever heard say it. A man needs no permission to be a man. Thanks.
Woops guess not hestia. Good post up above though.
@Hestia January 16, 2010 at 15:21
Very profound and observant. I thank you.
” . . . the way some men refers to women denigrate us deeply: I cant stand this, I cant stand how they speak about us so freely and without giving a damn on the damage it causes.” -Lara
Deal with it.
This sounds like your typical Ameriskank—always trashing men for sport, for approval, for sympathy, for fun, for the hell of it, to get men in hot water, and not caring for the damage it causes—social malaise, a ruined rep, a job loss, a false sexual harassment charge that he can’t shake or barely defend because no one believes him.
Until you have some empathy for men and masculinity, I suggest like another poster you get a thicker skin and start reading more and listening rather than just reacting with smug righteousness. BTW, most men DON’T speak of women freely because of the above.
So why are so upset, again?
“I cant stand how they speak about us so freely and without giving a damn on the damage it causes.†-Lara
Oh no, not free speech.
Would that be the same free speech that women have exercised in order to denigrate men? That has resulted in society finding castration and male rape ‘funny’? That has criminalised men and made them feel guilty for having sexual desires?
That has ultimately led to an extraordinarily high rate of male suicide, and has created such indifference to male suffering that feminist politicians can pass increasingly punitive laws against men, in order to imprison and punish more and more of them simply for being male?
You know – that free speech women exercised, which has led to men being tagged as ‘rapists’ and ‘pedophiles’ simply for being men, which led British Airways to mandate that no child shall be seated next to that most horrible of all things – a man?
And I don’t believe many women voiced doubts about the damage this all caused.
God forbid that this same right to free expression should come around and bite women in the ass when they act like bitches.
I generally don’t read Lara’s comments, because I have had a belly full of her type over the years. So, thanks for homing in on this one particular point and responding to it, SR. It provides me the perfect opening to harp on one of my favorite themes – man bashing harms women. Misogynists are not born, they are made.
I’m going to dig out one of my old essays on this topic and post it here soon. But, in the meantime I’m going to make another of my favorite points to Lara.
As SR points out, few if any women seem to have any problem at all when women bash men. My current favorite example is by that washed up old hag Liz Jones, who has made a career out of dishing out poison on every relationship she has ever had – including friendships. She moved from London to the west country, and typically starting using everyone around her as her verbal punching bag to fulfill her loyal readers’ endless appetite for trash.
Not surprisingly, the people who never asked her to move into their midst so that she could start looking down her nose at them were not impressed. Someone filled her mailbox full of bullet holes.
Eman, the Desperate Houseboy, takes her apart pretty well in this piece –
http://forahouseboy.blogspot.com/2009/10/living-proof-of-stripped-bare.html
The most telling and destructive aspect of the gender war is that women routinely spew this kind of crap in major outlets, and nowhere is there a woman’s voice to be heard talking about “the damage it causes.” As SR points out, men have no patience left for hypocrites who show up whimpering about not being able to stand how men are starting to talk about them, at the same time they giggle, titter, and agree when useless bags of skin like Liz Jones says things about men like –
Men are not anvils. We are not inanimate creatures devoid of feeling, one-dimensionally motivated by our sex drives. Women cannot pound on us as hard as they want forever and have us remain unaffected by that and still regard them with affection and caring.
Women tend to get “hurt”, while men tend more to get angry.
Well, Lara, if you don’t like how men are getting fed up with being bashed by women, don’t just keep trying to suppress the symptom and shut men up as women have been doing for years – do something about the cause.
Until then, some of us don’t care how much we hurt you, because women have taught us that none of them care how much they hurt us.
It’s very much as zed says here.
Many women seem rather oblivious to the very real damage that the feminist movement’s rhetoric — and how that rhetoric has become mainstream — has done to men. We hear endlessly and breathlessly about the damage to women done by “society” (meaning men, mostly, when used in this context), but never a breath about the harm to men other than an occasional self-serving finger-wag by a radical feminist saying something stupid like “See! Patriarchy is bad for men, too!” — something which is just yet another line of attack against, you guessed it, men. Drawing a distinction between the conjured from nothing phantom known as “patriarchy”, on the one hand, and men on the other is nothing other than a substance-free rhetorical sleight-of-hand. Men are bad, to the extent that they believe in being men, and do not support the thorough emasculation of men, and the transformation of men into feminized she-men (“evolved” men as the feminists like to say) — and so more bashing comes.
After a while, as zed points out, men either (1) begin to believe the bashing and give in (something called Stockholm Syndrome — Patty Hearst is a good example of this) or (2) begin to hate back. It really is that simple. Some guys who fall into category (2) eventually process through the hate and anger and reach a more relaxed apathy at some stage, which comes as a relief. But the long-lasting impact is still there, because these guys are apathetic about relationships with women, and have rather negative views about women and so on based on the pain inflicted on them by feminism and its worldview. The anger can dissipate and often does, but the damage is done, and the attitudes remain.
As long as women are in a rhetorical mode of attack against men, this will remain to be the case — a divergence between men who are emasculated (and found wanting by most women) and men who are angry and disaffected. There are a handful of men who are profiteers under this scheme — PUAs and so on. But otherwise the characterizations are pretty accurate.
@Hestia–Thank you, first and foremost, for the elegant defense of male sexuality. Also for the praise of female beauty, not the primped, powdered, altered, engineered bodies dangling before men like so many marionettes.
I work with young people and am incensed when I see the confusion, anger and self doubt felt by so many young adolescent men who are learning lessons early about girls who use their beauty and their bodies to exert power over them. How I feel towards the girls is altogether more complex, as it’s often the case that, at that age, they don’t fully realize what they are doing, or why, or why it works. Still, this doesn’t make me any less angry with or disappointed in them. Regardless, when this begins to happen around age 11 or 12, it is all the more palpable as “a terrible abuse of something good, a perversion.”
@Lara–This response is not going to address everything you’ve said; it can’t. I hope you take SR’s advice; read more and listen to what people on here, and elsewhere, are saying about how “real world” expectations AND ALLOWANCES for women’s behavior do far more to harm women, men and the relationships they form than you suspect. I also hope that you have some good friends where you are–men and women–and that you talk about these ideas with them. The real world is made up of the people who are close to you–the people you really value. You told Hestia to “live in the real world,” but how you appear to define it is pretty troubling, and I have to wonder how much you’ve thought about that phrase.
I agree, to some extent, that the “real world” you describe can make women believe that to reject mainstream expectations for our appearance and behavior is really complex, and perhaps not in our best interests. Don’t you believe it. Media images, women’s magazines, tv programs–all the outlets you mentioned–do NOT constitute the real world. They’re constructs, vehicles for advertisement and entertainment (for God’s sake), and they should be taken as such. Women have lost their sense of perspective with monstrous results by choosing to believe that these constructs (so many of which purport to empower women) in any way constitute a standard to which we should aspire because it reflects our lives in the “real world.” Women have consciously abandoned honor and virtue, not to mention their better judgment, in favor of a constructed, rapacious femininity that has to consume and consume and consume to support itself. It is NOT real and certainly not in our best interests to subscribe to this “ideal” for women.
Regarding the word “virtue” and it’s root “vir”, in Sanskrit “virya” means heroism.
in latin vir-viri: men
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