Dubious Claim from Swedish Feminists
by W.F. Price on January 4, 2010
Sweden’s premier feminist political party, “Feminist Initiative,” has unveiled a new line of consumer goods to promote their party and their political goals. The clothing and items feature logos proclaiming: “Feminists have better sex.”
Party spokeswomyn Veronica Svärd bases this strange claim on American research that supposedly shows that couples who split housework are more sexually satisfied.
Swedish Feminist
It is not clear whether this is really a purely political ploy, or a pathetic, thinly-veiled example of self-delusion. Given the appearance of the party leaders, the latter is most likely. One wonders whether many of these women would be feminists at all if this claim actually has any merit. To further reinforce their point, the party has put together a porn video, replete with cheesy music:
Tagged as:
Feminist Initiative,
Feminist porn,
Sweden,
Swedish feminists
{ 88 comments… read them below or add one }
I’m beginning to think that the Feminist Initiative is just a hilarious satire.
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Well, I must admit that I do find it very satisfying when hubby comes into the kitchen and……. Oh wait.. is he supposed to help with doing the dishes, first?
Unmitigated nonsense from another bunch of foolish feminist.
Self delusion? Heh! You betcha, Welmer.
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I think the image of Harriet Harman rimming a fat cunt with a beer gut would be closer to the truth than that video.
Rod.
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Using sex to sell feminism. How amusing.
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Did you know a lot of old feminists are taking school trips into mountainous areas with young girls. Apart from hate studies, they teach them yoga, self defense, hiking, hunting and how to eat beaver.
Rod.
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“Feminists have better sex”……with each other.
Somebody had to say it.
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Their Wikipedia Page is comedy gold.
Under ‘Internal Criticisms’:
“… On 13 September 2005 another of the 15 founding members of the Executive Committee, Susanne Linde, resigned from the party. Linde was the only member of the founding group who had previously been active in a centre-right political party, the Liberal People’s Party. She gave as her principal reason the treatment she had received from another committee member Tiina Rosenberg, who, among other claims, had criticised her for being a heterosexual, and calling her a “middle class hag”. Linde was unhappy with Rosenberg’s “reverse homophobia”. Witt-Brattström claimed Rosenberg had called her a “gender traitor” for having sex with men.[citation needed] Tiina Rosenberg herself later left the Executive Committee, but not Fi, after death threats to herself and her children, and perceived harassment from the media.”
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To be fair, the quicker the housework is done, the more time is left for other things.
Splitting the chores, maintaining a good housework schedule/time management skills, or a combination of both can all accomplish the work being done in a timely fashion.
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Rod January 4, 2010 at 16:23
I think the image of Harriet Harman rimming a fat cunt with a beer gut would be closer to the truth than that video.
Rod.
John Prescott???
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Feminists have better sex, now that there are rechargeable batteries.
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It’s probably also true that a healthier man will have more energy to both do housework and have sex. A lot of these studies leave out contributing factors like that, so in reality they are often irrelevant to the point people are trying to make.
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A lot of these studies leave out contributing factors like that, so in reality they are often irrelevant to the point people are trying to make.
Very true.
With this study I’d also be curious as to what the definition of “splitting housework” is. I personally consider pretty much everything that pertains to the domestic realm, including lawn and car care, to be “housework” which means there is hardly a couple I know that doesn’t split the chores in some way. When my husband takes our daughter to the park so I can work on the grocery list or menu plan, I’d call that “splitting the housework”. Cooperation does not require a 50/50 split or competition over who does what IMHO. Something tells me this is not the definition these feminists have in mind.
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Note to feminists:
We know you don’t look like that!
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That’s a good question. I did the shopping and most of the cooking when with my ex. I shopped because I was much better at math than she was, and I cooked because I like edible food.
Of course, I also took care of the machines, including vehicles, computers, etc. I also did some gardening, because home-grown produce tastes really good. I did the taxes as well. I left the cleaning to her, but that’s just about it. Hell, anything that took any thought at all was my job. Now that she isn’t my problem anymore, my life is so much easier that I can run The Spearhead. I have to admit that I’m having a hard time thinking it would be worth it to have another woman because, in my experience, maintaining one is like having another full-time job.
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Speaking of feminists–Mary Daly is dead.
http://ncronline.org/news/women/mary-daly-radical-feminist-theologian-dead-81
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I remember Daly. She was the crazy woman that wouldn’t let men into her classes.
I was hoping that she and the rest of her kind would live to see the end of their movement.
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LOL at the video. Most of those women fuck like men.
Then again, given that it was a video from ugly, man-hating dykes, I don’t find that much surprising.
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When my (and formers) girlfriend ask me to “split housework” with her, my answers is always:
Sure! But first, You have to share my job.
Until now, I didn’t see any takers…
Note: My job is about pouring hot tar in the ceilings to
make them waterproof.
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An interesting way to “sell” feminism.
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Being an older man and having dated very conservative women who acted ashamed of their bodies, orgasms and anything to do with sex I would have to agree with the study if it reached all age demographics.
Try bedding a women that wears a floor to ceiling gown, turns her head aside, does not move nor make a sound a couple of times in your life.
I would doubt though that modern conservative girls would consider the above behavior to be mandatory.
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So what they are saying is, join the feminists and get f****d.
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Forgot to say I doubt splitting housework has anything to do with it. My wife is my wife in great part because she felt the need to be a wife. That can mean many things but in this case her doing the housework for us is something she enjoys, myself doing the housework makes her feel less of a women.
We had a kitchen remodel a few years back, being that the children were close to leaving home I decided we would not get a dish washer. She wanted one, I told her that if she didn’t want to do the dishes I would. I’ve washed dishes perhaps twice in three years. My wife enjoys keeping house for me, and I enjoy being the man of the house for her.
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I have some basic trends to report from the whole mass of comments I got on ‘The Misandry Bubble’, both on my blog and other blogs that linked to me.
1) We all know that women who disagree have but two tacts : calling the holder of the opinion a ‘misogynist’, or a loser with women. They have zero debate arsenal beyond that. BUT, they only did this from their blogs, not commenting on my blog, for fear of being taken to task by other commenters. Only one misandrist really commented on my blog, and quickly vanished after being rebutted by others.
2) The number of whiteknight/mangina MEN was actually larger. They said things like ‘alphas are bitter punks. A real man works like hell to support the woman he loves’. My god. How inobservant can one be?
3) There were a number of people, including women, who agreed with everything in the article EXCEPT the Venusian Arts. They condemned that as ‘disgusting and pathetic’ despite agreeing with everything else. They fail to see how Game is an inextricable part of the whole thing, plus totally ignored my explanation of what Game is, and isn’t.
This further confirms my claim that 80% of men and 99.9% of women can never, ever, ever grasp Game, despite so many logical clues pointing to the realities of it.
4) Every single woman who disagreed (on their own blogs, of course) was adept at saying ‘the man is a deadbeat dad’ or ‘bitter divorced men don’t want to pay alimony’ with zero willingness to admit that SHE filed for divorce. This is such an elaborate ruse that few men will notice it and call women on it. SHE filed, so it is unfair for HER to get anything : this is INCREDIBLY under-discussed in America.
That so many women truly don’t think the current setup is unfair is astonishing, and shows how the backlash will be a total surprise to them.
Grand total : about 18,000 visits so far. Most would not have read the whole thing, but I hope some guys learned a few new things, and will be more aware.
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i had the same response to a girl that refused to enter a doorway until i held it open for her. I said, you want equality? You can buy your own drinks and pay for your own food and the desert that I won’t eat.”
I bailed on the date after having a beer and refusing to order food.
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We talk too much about women!
We talk too much about women when 100% of those named, outed and shamed ought to be male, everytime and everywhere by the mens movement.
This is a correct political method on account of our “searching for male not female archetypes that serve our cause of building a male centred overarching mythology”.
The overarching mythology the mens movement are appropriately to be concerned with building is a male centred, male dominated and male characterised one.
The mens movement must not defeat their own purpose by ever reccognising or ever acknowleging the existing female characteriesd overarching mythology by obsessing about feminism or females.
And there has been nothing so much ineffective and impeding to the mens movements cause than its obsessive preoccupation with female archetypes instead of focussing on male archetypes, good or bad.
Just ask the Isreali mens rights party whom have not picked up meaningful votes on account of obsessing about female characterisations of feminism, instead of the male ones, good or bad
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POIUTY,
I have repeatedly said that we should use exactly the opponent that the troublemaking/enabling group is afraid to confront.
Use MUSLIMS to attack feminists.
Use (sane) WOMEN to shame socialcons.
Those are exactly the opponents that neither group would dare oppose.
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@POIUYT
Good points, POIUYT. However, I’d say that breaking taboos about criticizing women is a good first step. From what I’ve seen, sites and publications that focus only on men and avoid critiquing women tend to slide into chivalry and one-upsmanship quite rapidly. In fact, most of them advocate being a “good man” for the sake of women.
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However, I’d say that breaking taboos about criticizing women is a good first step.
100% agree. Just in the last 72 hours, I have seen strong confirmation that :
1) Whiteknights/manginas/socialcons are more vocal in slamming the men who confront feminism than the typical woman.
2) The typical women who DO protest have exactly two things they know how to say : a) ‘misogynist’, and b) you are a loser. Beyond this they have nothing in their arsenal.
That is why they don’t come to male turf. Only one came to the comments of my article, and we *rarely* see a real misandrist ever come here. Rather a conspicuous absence.
3) Women are so adept at avoiding responsibility for their own actions that most men don’t even notice it. Women say ‘men are deadbeat dads’ or ‘bitter divorced losers don’t want to pay alimony’, with NO ONE CALLING THEM on the fact that THEY INITIATED DIVORCE.
4) Too many men take the female shaming language seriously. When their tactics of either ‘misogynist’ or ‘loser’ are not taken seriously, they really have nothing. This is why Game is important, EVEN IF a man is not seeking to sleep with a lot of women. Game makes a man IMMUNE to this shaming language, and he knows that it should be treated as if a 12 year old called him a ‘faggot’, than if a rational adult condemned him after fair assessment.
I think the tide is turning during this decade. Once more men are not afraid of being called the same 2 names, the are effectively ‘increvable’.
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The Pill and Feminism’s Future –
Part 1 of 2
The Rise and Fall of Feminism/Female Domination
Dec 2009
The Male Contraceptive Pill; and Freedom For Men –
The male pill is on it’s way, and will be with us in less than 5 years, if not from the US or Britain, then from China and India.
The pill for men will be the biggest step for freedom that men have ever had – freedom from the serfdom imposed by fatherhood. So if the present tyrannical feminist British women want their babies, they will have to offer a far better deal to men than at present.
For example –
1
The present marriage laws, and the infamous and secret ‘family courts’ will have to go, and quickly, and the dictatorial marriage and ‘common law’ marriage expectations drastically changed.
2
The constant demeaning of masculinity, particularly on TV in programs such as ‘One Foot in the Grave’, ‘Men Behaving Badly’ and the present ‘soaps’ in general, where men habitually behave in an infantile manner, and are presented in an appalling way, will have to be recognised as highly offensive to men, and dispensed with.
3
The most powerful of the British feminist weapons – the wild and malicious accusations of ‘rape’ and ‘child sex’ – will have to be brought back under civilized law where the accuser will be required to have hard evidence and be held responsible for their actions, both in the making of the accusation, and their part in the incident. The male sex drive is an extremely powerful force, and a woman who provokes it to the point where a man loses his self-control that woman must accept some of the blame. The accused will have to be considered innocent until – and if – proven guilty.
The Rise of Woman’s Dominance -
As far as I know never before in human history has woman obtained such a dominant position in society, and I have puzzled over this for many years. To reason this out I considered that the dominance must coincide with a recent new event, and the rise of science is the most noticeable over the last 100 years.
It seems that the science events most effecting women’s position in society are the invention of domestic labour saving devices – making the ‘housewife’ redundant, the invention of mechanised work equipment – making the ‘male upper body’ strength requirement redundant in the workplace, and – most significantly – the invention of the female contraception pill which gave a woman political power over men by either withholding sex, which she has always been able to do, or rewarding with sex, which for the fear of unwanted pregnancy, she has never been able to do before. It should be noted that recent social science research has found that giving rewards has far more impact on behaviour than giving punishments, which soon lose their effects altogether.
The female contraceptive pill in the 1960s Britain gave British women direct power over sex availability without fear of pregnancy for the first time in human history. There was a popular phrase in the 1960s – ‘free love’, but there was nothing ‘free’ about the ‘free love’ of the 1960s. It came at a price, a price controlled and set by women who seized upon this new ‘pillow power’ with vigour; and some have used this power – unwisely – to disadvantage men in every way possible, thus asserting a position of dominance over men in which she has reduced them to a level of disadvantaged cowed subservience – and infantile behaviour in an attempt to present themselves as children entitled to the protection of the maternal instinct.
The ‘Mad Maternal Instinct’ – the all powerful evolutionary force in women that regards masculine Men as simple mating objects when in lust, and when not, as dangerous predators to be avoided or driven off and away from the precious family group.
Sage1916
Continued -
Part 2 of 2
The Decline of Dominance and Re-establishment of Equality -
The timing of the 1960’s pill and ten years later, the recognition of the feminist movement is an incident that supports the view that they are connected in a cause and effect relationship, but via a third factor.
I would argue that the dominance by women is not a result of feminism, but of the 1960’s pill. Feminism developed out of this dominance. Once the dominance is removed, feminism will dwindle and demise.
The 1960’s pill does give an advantage and dominance via the reward of sex to men. But with an equivalent male contraceptive pill, men can make it quite clear that they are not prepared to have children unless they want to, and are offered a satisfactory position in the family group and society – enforced by law. This would equalise the woman’s power over men’s sex drive with the man’s power over the maternal instinct; and the need to breed. Hence the counter balancing of the power given to women – ironically by male scientists! – by the 1960’s female contraceptive pill.
Once the power of the 1960s female pill is counterbalanced – equalized – by the male pill this yoke of female dominance is likely to be flung off with surprising speed, and retribution and revenge on the British feminist female – and feminist male – is likely to be wreaked, as some wiser and more sensible women have been aware of for some time.
I am very surprised that a social event on par with the 1960s social revolution is within a few years, and the media and people in general have not noticed. I do not intent to attack women in general, but simply to describe – what appears to me – to be in the future.
It appears to me that the combination of -
1 a general grass roots resistance and resentment by modern men to the belligerents and unfairness of feminism,
2 the coming worsening economic decline and worsening male unemployment,
3 the problems of over population,
4 and the balancing of the 1960s female pill with an equivalent male pill
will result in a complete reversal of the present situation and the subjugation of western women into exploited work units with little or no rights at all – and given their attitude to Men over the last fifty years, I would have little sympathy for them; and I doubt if many Men would.
Today belongs to feminism, but tomorrow belongs to Men.
Sage1916
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Welmer January 4, 2010 at 17:54
I have to admit that I’m having a hard time thinking it would be worth it to have another woman because, in my experience, maintaining one is like having another full-time job.
That’s exactly how I look at it. They’re too much of a PITA.
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@sage99:
What you say makes some kind of sense. However, there exists today an effecitive birth control method: it’s called RISUG and is good for ten year.
There is also a very small surgery called vasectomy, which puts men in a very safe situation.
Vasectomy is readily available here (Canada) and RISUG, which is made in India is also 100% efficient: the only problem is you have to travel to India.
Perhaps the men’s movement should do lobbying and obtain its legalization in our Western countries.
I would have more confidence in a male bith control pill that works for ten or twenty years or one that is permanent.
Men can also have some seeds frozen and get themselves zipped via vasectomy. No unwanted pregnancy is then possible, which is what we need. Such birth control techniques are much safer than the female pill.
Men have to take full control over reproduction and since nothing happens without us, all we have to do is to cut the supply of seeds. No life can come if the initial spark is missing.
Therefore, men already have full control of their reproductive capacity. No child is born until a man says so.
The real problem here is that men are lazy and are not willing to exercise control.
I am not so sue that the male pill will change much: men don’t care enough.
I know and have known a few men who, decidedly, did not want children and they never did.
It’s not a male pill that men need, but the will not to reproduce.
Perhaps the solution lies in laws so stiff and inhuman towards men that all men become terrified at the mere thought of fathering a child.
We may be heading in that direction: population control would require that men back off from fatherhood.
Does he earth need 7 billion people on it?
No, the earth does not need us at all. We are basically useless beings: at the same time predators and useless mouths. Our presence on earth was an accident, a crazy turn of events probably caused by shifts in weather conditions.
So, it doesn’t matter if we don’t reproduce and this gives men full power already simply because there is no obligation to reproduce.
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Interesting.
Didn’t that NYT article last year about female sexual desire say that, according to female sex researchers, the often touted notion of doing chores as being an aphrodisiac was more or less complete bunk?
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Novaseeker?
-Remaking Libido.
(Funny).
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Advert is so lame it’s unforgivable.
Interesting to note how feminism sets standards, e.g., ‘you’re either a happening feminist or you’re not’. Feminists have better sex? So one can only deduce that YOU’RE FAILING in your sexual existence if you’re not a feminist. What kind of message is that? More for women to worry about. Some recruitment campaign that is – preying on your very own gender’s self-conscious weaknesses.
Crafty way of drawing the vulnerables in. Feminists have better sex and YOU DON’T.
Same as putting WE have better sex than you do, here’s why, come join.
Sad they have to stoop so low. Stooping low = stoopid.
I just worry that increasingly men are going to have to deal with more women who tune into this crap.
Real turnoff material. Silly ‘glam’ middle/upper class world trying to recruit young professional females I think.
And where’s the representation? Where’s the big fat bird humping?
Steer well clear. It annoys me because the metro world I live in that’s mostly what I see – women, glam culture and all its vanity, now hijacked by feminist nonsense.
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Everything feminists do is inept, except backdoor politiking, so this video is no surprise.
TFH – The common language I notice is that a woman is always “going through a divorce” or “went through a divorce”. That’s fembot code for “filed divorce and trying to make out like a bandit on the alimony”.
I’ve made a mental note that anytime I hear a woman talk about actions as if they were agent-less natural forces, I shall press her to admit the agency.
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What if the feminist ARE NOT having sex at all? So they now need to pay for ads showing attractive women TO GET THE MEN interested in them?
Hmm hmm.
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“Men can also have some seeds frozen and get themselves zipped via vasectomy.”
Anyone actually done this and, if so, how did you legally and logistically structure the arrangements for sperm storage?
My concern is that almost anything can happen once the sperm gets out of my body and into the freezer. Sure, I can hire lawyers to draw up contracts to try to cover my bases and naively rely on the legal system to protect my contracts, but the bottom line is that stored sperm that finds its way into a vagina can get me hooked for child support just as easily as a sperm deposit I make into some slut from the local bar.
Paranoid? Sure it is, but given the last three decades’ events surrounding sex and society, and some of the US legal decisions I have read regarding “family law,” I am all out of trust when it comes to safeguarding my money. And as fucked-up and naive as it sounds, I might want kids once I reach my financial and geographical goals (i,e. get the fuck out of the US forever – a realistic option once I discovered that the NFL is available worldwide via satellite.)
I have been thinking about it because I am not interested in unwanted surprises, unless they can be sucked out of the uterus and flushed down the drain, but relying on that is like confidently taking a proposition bet at the craps table. It’s for suckers.
And how do you use embedded quotations and other features on this site? It would be nice to be able to edit posts too, but that is probably too much to ask for in one day.
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@Novaseeker
The longer a woman has been married, the more sex (with her husband) becomes just one more chore for her, along with doing the laundry, cooking dinner, etc. For a married man, doing housework is not an aphrodisiac for his wife, per se, it’s more of a quid pro quo.
What would we do without Latin? Tell your sons.
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Empirical evidence in the form of birth rates seems to indicate that feminists are both having less and worse sex, actually.
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You knew it was only a matte of time:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1240770/France-introduce-new-law-banning-psychological-violence-marriages.html
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Dragnet,
OMG….
Nope, that isn’t prone to abuse at all.
Plus, see how the law is made to ‘protect women’. No indication that it there is even a pretense of being able to help the man if HE is similarly abused…
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That France’s ‘psychological violence’ law sounds like it’s really far out there. In theory it could perhaps give some leverage to men, but in practice, I doubt it.
Gentlemen, start your ubiquitous recording devices!
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“Icaros2010 January 5, 2010 at 10:45
That France’s ‘psychological violence’ law sounds like it’s really far out there. In theory it could perhaps give some leverage to men, but in practice, I doubt it.
Gentlemen, start your ubiquitous recording devices!”
Yeah. Its easy for men to keep our mouths shut when we want to. A smart man could really make this work to his advantage. Bickering, nitpicking, all that usual verbal diarreaha from women, with a recording and a decent lawyer, it could work to men’s favor. The second that happens however, feminist will have the law changed back. I think this might be a place men can turn the tables against feminist. Someone who speaks French should investigate the cultural awareness of French men and wether they recognize the potential in lobbing this feminist grenade back at the enemy.
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Regulating our private affairs, punishable by electronic tagging, surveillance, criminal records.
Feminism is inside our homes.
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too late for romance- Anyone actually done this and, if so, how did you legally and logistically structure the arrangements for sperm storage?
My husband stored sperm before his first deployment to Iraq just in case he should ever be exposed to any harmful substance during the course of his military career.
Logistically speaking, storing sperm is a fairly easy task. Simply contact a sperm storage facility and have an STD screen and you are good to go. IIRC my husband said the cost (back then anyway) was $2000 up front (this was for the material necessary for two children) and $350 per year storage fee. Do bear in mind the cost of storage isn't the only factor; IVF or insemination services also need to be factored in. I have no idea the price of either since we've never had reason to take the deposit out of the bank, but the price for IVF can be very steep.
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The same from the BBC: France mulls ‘psychological violence’ ban . (Daily Mail doesn’t have the best of reputations.)
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Info on male contraceptive RISUG
http://www.malecontraceptives.org/methods/risug.php
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Well, I think it’s a ridiculous tactic, of course. But the premise behind it could be true: that couples who split housework have better sex. Most of the traditional marriages I’ve seen, the couples do split the housework although the work is often split along traditional gender lines.
Men will work tirelessly for women who love them and treat them well. And women whose husbands help would also feel loved and appreciated. Love and appreciation could certainly tie into better sex for both spouses. Also, sharing housework points to a healthy work/life balance which would probably also contribute to a better relationship and better sex. Someone who spends 10 hours in a coal mine just to come home and pass out in front of the TV probably isn’t going to be the biggest stud-muffin at night.
I don’t understand why they think this has anything to do with feminism, though.
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If a man spends 10 hours mining coal to provide the house that you live in and the food that you eat, it is reprehensible of you to expect anything more from him.
When was the last time a woman spent 10 hours mining coal for her husband? Or anything comparable?
Right. When that happens, we’ll talk.
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Nobody said that the woman expects anything more, just that the sex wouldn’t be as good. It works the other way around, as well. It would be stupid to say, “Did you know that men who are married to women who aren’t 9 months pregnant have more and better sex?” Well, of course. Duh.
Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
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What words did I put in your mouth?
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I thought that that was meant for me personally.
Anyway, there are other dangerous things than working in a coal mine (as my German grandfather and uncle did). Childbirth is seen as being harmless nowadays, but I’ve been to 2 funerals for women who died giving birth (one from complications, one just bled to death). I also have a close friend who nearly died during an emergency C-section.
And this was in Germany, where maternal death rates are lower than here.
My own pregnancies were complete horrors.
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””””””’Someone who spends 10 hours in a coal mine just to come home and pass out in front of the TV probably isn’t going to be the biggest stud-muffin at night.”””’
Jesus Christ are you serious?
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lol!
Hard labour is just what men do. No need to feel any sympathy for them. Sympathy must be reserved for those who carry out the terrible task of washing plates.
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Gunslinger, obviously I was exaggerating for dramatic effect.
Most men aren’t coal miners, nor do they do hard work. Most Americans are suffering from a lack of physical exercise, not a surplus of it. The opposite of the historical norm in which both men and women lived difficult and dangerous lives, most of us are suffocating in luxury and abundance.
The only physical damage most of the men I know of suffer from is carpal tunnel syndrome or tension headaches. Considering I used to do the exact same type of job, I know what I’m talking about.
Snark,
Anybody who knows me, knows that I suffer from an unusual lack of sympathy on all fronts. People who work hard to feed their families don’t receive my sympathy, only my admiration. My father used to be a plate-washer at a canteen in his off-duty hours (he was a PFC in the Army) and, yes, that’s real work. Do I feel sympathy for him? No. He was doing what he had to do.
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Anyway, you are both nit-picking like females about my perfectly valid point:
Saying that women whose husbands help out with housework have better sex is a stupid base for claiming that feminists have better sex. The one does not lead to the other.
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Snark-No need to feel any sympathy for them.
The Good Wife’s Guide would not agree. (Neither would my mother, grandmother, or late great-grandmother for that matter) Parody it might be, the idea of providing a place for a husband to wind down after work, complete with seasonally appropriate beverage and snack, should be part of a proper homemaking routine. Even moreso when you know your husband has had a tough day at work.
Like this week while my poor husband is going through combatives training. He really wants to take this class, but enthusiasm doesn’t stop the bruises and soreness from sparring in hand to hand combat all day. *shudders* Last time he couldn’t complete the training as he managed to get a spiral fracture on the first day. I’m hoping this round goes much better for his sake.
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Black&German-Most men aren’t coal miners, nor do they do hard work.
Work does not nee to be physically tough to be hard and stressful. Just ponder for a moment the sole breadwinner man who goes off to a lackluster job every day knowing full that even an honest mistake could cost him his job and leave him unable to provide for his family. That has to be an immense weight to bear alone, as male breadwinners typically do. Maybe sympathy isn’t the correct word for what men should receive for their hard work, but empathy and appreciation should not be too much for a man to expect from the people in his life, especially those he does the work for.
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Hestia, you are bending point.
This isn’t about being empathetic or treating your husband lovingly because he deserves it just for being your husband (I agree with you there). It’s about sympathy; about feeling sorry for him working hard.
Do you think, “Oh, my poor husband. I wish he didn’t have to be in the military so he could live a cushy life.”?
Anyway, this is all derailing the original topic.
Before I posted this, I saw your last post. So I guess we agree.
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I just don’t like the whole sympathy/pity-thing. There’s too much pity going around and not enough responsibility, IMO. People should just do what they have to do and fight the good fight.
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Do you think, “Oh, my poor husband. I wish he didn’t have to be in the military so he could live a cushy life.”?
Actually I do. My heart aches for him every day he misses of our daughter’s life, every time he lost a friend in combat, every time he helped place the coffin of a fellow soldier on an airplane headed for the US, every time he had to hand the flag to a young widow during funeral detail, and every time I see the scars of combat and training on his body. He’s been through experiences that break a good portion of people and seen things I selfishly hope I will never have to. While I know there is a large part of him that enjoys military service for reasons I cannot fully understand, the part of me that is broken for what he has gone through, what he has seen, and the secrets he will likely never tell doesn’t go away. So yes I do feel a lot of sympathy for what he has experienced, all he has given up, and all that is yet to come.
And because of this I seek to help provide the financial cushion necessary should he decide to walk away before retirement in the future. Even if he doesn’t want to do this now, his options need to be kept open so he can have a choice.
/thread derailment
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I remember my friend’s fathers from the 1960s. They were middle-class and quite successful, but they were stressed. Sole breadwinner males used to be stressed up the wazoo.
And Hestia is right. A lot of men’s jobs are mentally demanding and unforgiving. Even in my job I have to be very concerned about not making errors. Lawyers, doctors, businessmen, all very stressful.
There are no doubt many reasons why men are relatively happier these days, although the media keeps implying that we shouldn’t be, but one of the biggest is surely that men don’t have the stress of being solely responsible for earning a living.
I am quite a believer that, socially, things tend to an equilibrium. Men used to be more clearly heads of houses, but the downside was that they were held fully responsible for whatever went wrong, including financially. Now men have less ascribed status but less stress.
I don’t think that women “shit-testing” their husbands is a new phenomenon, by the way. I was talking with a young man who told me that his grandfather used to go out and get a bottle of liquor, and come home and sit quietly while his grandmother nagged him for hours. My own grandfather used to get talked at for hours by my grandmother. He used to escape into a book.
In Australia, a lot of men retreat into their garden sheds to potter around and tinker. I suspect a lot of this is to escape the Missus. Sad, really.
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I came close to getting killed in a work related accident 15 years ago. It probably would have killed or permanently disabled a woman. It’s funny you mention this, because the old injury has been giving me trouble for the last couple of weeks for some reason (damp, cold weather I suspect). Had a few other close calls at work. I don’t think you have a clue what you’re talking about, B&G. In all of the dangerous jobs I’ve worked the crews were 100% male. You must run in some pretty cloistered circles with privileged males who’ve never had to face any physical risks on the job. There are millions of men who don’t have that luxury.
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Yea welmer I never saw too many chicks working underneath a tank in the mud. Hell look at the show dirty jobs. All the work that actually gets done. The shit that requires physical effort and a brain is men.
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Maybe health care would have to be the dirty job given to woman though. They got one area.
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Uh… just reopening the derailment a bit to respond.
Welmer,
That was my point. Most of the men I know are computer nerds. I do know plenty of guys (and gals, for that matter) in the military, but one was a mechanic for the Navy and the rest have relatively cushy positions in Signal (it’s mostly warrant officers). They’re doing the hard work in the computer center, with plenty of women in there with them. My father used to go out to El Paso and sit in the air-conditioned headquarters and fiddle with the electronics while everyone else was out in the scorching heat. He loved it and went into a depression when he retired.
Hestia’s point was that I should feel sympathy with my husband because he has to go to work every day. My husband doesn’t have a dangerous job (although he once worked as an electrician and had a few close calls).
Hestia, that’s where our viewpoints are fundamentally different. I’m an eternal optimist, I know, but where I come from if you say, “My husband is in the military and has seen active combat.” they’d answer, “Wow. He has a job!” There are plenty of unemployed men who have been rejected for military service that would envy you your husband’s problems. I have a cousin working 2 jobs to support his family who is struggling to achieve his high school diploma so that he can join up. No sympathy here. Good for him and good luck.
Most of the men in my family came from abject poverty and only those who joined the military made it up and out. So, I tend to see the military as a pretty good deal for those involved. Nobody forces them to sign up, just as nobody forces men to marry and carry the burden of feeding their families. It is a privilege to support their families, just as it is a privilege for women to bear and raise children (I know I’m very privileged).
My sympathy is reserved for those who are facing injustice, such as a man (or woman) who sacrifices for his family and then gets left for someone “newer and better” — as just happened with my cousin who got dumped by his wife last week via text message “I’ve changed the locks and don’t bother to come home. I’m going to take your children, too.” I kid you not. She cleared out their joint bank account first.
I also tend to recoil from the whole pity/sympathy thing because I’ve seen the damage it can do to a community, especially self-pity. Black Americans aren’t going to make it back to the middle class until they dump their pity-parties and deal with reality as it is. We need to start counting our blessings and being thankful for what we have.
My husband’s been unemployed twice and that made me the sole breadwinner both times. I know numerous women who are now the sole breadwinner in their home (thank you, Mancession), including one who is doing back-breaking work in a old folk’s home. I have another female cousin who is working crazy shifts as a cook and has a scarred back from being burnt with hot oil. My husband’s cousin’s wife cleans her neighbor’s houses for extra income since his hours have been cut. Do what you’ve got to do.
That’s what help-meets are for, and the advantage of marrying a woman who has the resources to bring home the bacon if needs be. I think that this is a better situation than the old “he brings home the bacon or we all starve” mentality. Teamwork and flexibility is what’s called for nowadays.
And, yes, nagging has always existed. They even wrote about it in the Bible. Proverbs 21 mentions it twice:
And there’s a reason why they keep mentioning that wives should submit to their husbands: the women weren’t submitting. And back then you couldn’t divorce your wife so if she acted like that you were stuck with her until you died. And I bet death was a long time coming, living with a woman like that.
The difference nowadays is that a woman will nag a man near to death, then divorce him and take him for his last penny to boot.
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I,m sorry but if you can see something “optimistic” in people watching other human beings get blown up and cleaning up the bodies, you aren’t so much as optimist as you have ice running through your veins.
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Ice? Perhaps. Is that a bad thing? We’re just very different, Hestia. Being different doesn’t make one better than the other.
Considering that I spent high school in JROTC and nearly joined the Marines myself… would I then have to sympathize with myself? Going to war is part of joining the military and people who can’t deal with it shouldn’t join. Most of the military guys I know like being in the military, just as you said your husband does. I don’t think that’s crazy. I understand the feeling completely, and sometimes feel regret that I didn’t sign up (my parents talked me out of it).
I’m sure there are plenty of guys on here who think women don’t belong in active duty (and I’m inclined to agree with them, on principle), but my own natural inclination tilts that way. I have more than my fair feminine share of aggression. When I watched the towers fall, after getting over the initial shock, my first thought was, “Damn. If I’d have joined the Marines I could go kick some ass right now.” I’m a good shot, to boot.
I’m not ladylike (you’ve pointed this out before), meek, or sweet. Guilty as charged. But when the shit hits the fan, I’ll be the one out front with a rifle. See you there.
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Just as combat can be part of military service, death and serious complications are a real risk of childbirth and one that is fairly common knowledge, yet you brought up this example earlier in the thread. To appreciate this reality, one must feel sympathy for the people this devastating circumstance could happen to and put themselves in their shoes to understand how frightening this could be. In light of this I must admit I am a bit confused by your logic, as when it comes to women we should feel sympathy for the dangers they face through choices they make, yet when it comes to men we are supposed to be “grateful” for the devastation realities they go through. If I am misunderstanding your point, please do explain if you feel so inclined.
I never called you “unladylike” though I did express concerns you might be disrespecting your husband and being immodest by sharing intimate details of the special gift that is the sexual relationship within marriage. To do right by men in general, we must do right by our husbands first and for this reason I raised to concern I did. You then responded with an insult about me finding Christianity irrational when I had never said any such thing. Just as you do not want people putting words in your mouth, I don’t enjoy having this done to me.
As for your remarks about firearms, I carry concealed and know how to shoot a weapon as do quite a few other women I know. Guess this means you won’t be the lone woman at the front, huh?
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Just curious, how precisely are you defining sympathy, B&G? Sympathy does not always mean pity and sorrow. To be sympathetic to a cause means to be loyal. To be sympathetic of the experiences of another person is to share feelings and compassion. Commiseration also doesn’t necessarily imply that you help someone wallow in self-pity, but may very be helping them unburden themselves so that they can move on and overcome a terrible circumstance. This would be the positive form. The negative form encourages somebody to live as a victim, rather than empowering them to pick up the pieces and move on. Both cases, however, have their roots in the same cause: sympathizing with the plight of another and caring enough to help
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Like I said, see you there. Obviously, if you’re hanging out here, you’re not quite as docile as you let on. He, he. I know the deal, Hestia.
I brought up pregnancy as an example of a sometimes dangerous thing that women do, not for sympathy points.
Now I understand your general disconnect with my arguments: you are confusing sympathy and empathy. Empathy is, as you call it, putting yourself in someone else’s shoes; feeling with them or trying to see the world through their eyes. Sympathy is related to pity and implies feeling for them. I am empathetic, but not very sympathetic. I try to understand what my husband is going through and make his load lighter in appreciation for his efforts and his place in our home. But I don’t sit around feeling sorry for him. That is my point.
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According to my 1828 Webster’s Dictionary, sympathy encompasses the definitions given to both terms nowadays. The phrase “empathy” was not included in the dictionary back then. Homeschooling mother that I am, that is my primary source for language related information of all kinds as language has declined a fair bit since then. As so many misunderstandings online can prove.
Speaking of which, I must confess I was a bit shocked to learn your definition of homeschooling as I’d never heard the term used for that before.
In our neck of the woods homeschooling is the typical education at home sort. Always more to learn it seems.
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English is my second language so I tend to go with the modern definitions. Why the 1828 version?
Homeschooling… car schooling… after schooling… Around here there’s not much “true homeschooling” going on anymore, if that means spending all day, every day at home poring over books at the dining room table. My point is that the homeschooling and educational consumer movements are merging and overlapping. Legally, we’ll be considered homeschoolers despite their attending the co-op. Maryland law. Until the age of 5 there is no need to declare in either direction.
Educational consumer is bigger than homeschooling as it begins at birth and continues on for life. Homeschooling is just a subset of that movement. There’s also distance learning, apprenticeships, etc.
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The 1828 dictionary was written by Noah Webster, a devout Christian, who defined words from a Christian worldview. For this reason, this edition is is a fabulous study aid when using the King James Bible (many Baptists and other conservative homeschoolers are KJV only)and also for instilling a good sense of morality as well. Many conservative Christian homeschoolers use the 1828 for this reason as it explained a bit more in-depth here: http://www.mcguffeyreaders.com/1828dictionary.htm
This edition of the dictionary contained 12,000 words that had never published before, including many US specific words, along with the reformed spelling rules used in the American English (color as opposed to colour), and took nearly three decades of exhaustive work to complete. By the time this edition was published, Mr. Webster had mastered numerous languages to better inform his etymology and spelling knowledge. Basically this edition of the dictionary provides a reference that not only showcases US English at its peak, but also provides a good historic and religious education at the same time.
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I’ve heard of the readers before. I use a Catholic Bible, myself, although the KJ is so much more poetic. Interesting that people are still using such an old edition of the dictionary. Sort of a Charlotte Masony-slant.
My empathy/sympathy differentiation comes from German. So, it makes sense that way for me.
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Actually, the best sex is when the man does ALL or at least most of the household chores. For real. I found this to be true because a man that does all that is really caring and giving and makes you appreciate him more. Yep. It’s an aphrodisiac.
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Is this an infomerical that is shown on daytime public access TV in Sweden???
Swedish TV is THAT risque??
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@ Rebel
I fully agree with what you say, there is a lot of sense in your post, but I would caution against the vasectomy. I know three men who have had it done and it does have health problems – both in the short term and the long term.
1 Inflammation of the internal cavity into which the semen is deposited.
2 The restriction of deposit rate can cause problems in the prostrate in later life.
If anyone is thinking of having it done I would advise them to talk to men who have it, and do their own independent research.
The reversal procedure is becoming more efficient.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy
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When women are as ugly as the one in the photo then they WOULD have better sex with another woman. Another ugly entitlement princess woman because no self respecting man would have sex with a woman that ugly.
And I can say one thing with absolute certainty. The 15-20 non-feminised eastern women I have dated the last 20 months? ALL of them out-perform the 4 feminised women I had sex with in my life before then. I don’t even talk to a woman who was not born behind the iron curtain.
There was an article in a tasmanian newspaper encouraging older women to become lesbian because of the ‘lack of good men’. And in the UK older women 50+ are taking ‘sex tours’ to africa. Bright idea. Where about 40% of men have aids. Very intelligent. Yep. Feminism is using sex to sell women on the idea that they are ‘powerful’ and ‘liberated’. That song ‘I kissed a girl’ was in the charts in the UK for what seemed like forever last year.
Women have little capacity for logic so all that is needed is repetition. Those programming the women know this.
too late for romance January 5, 2010 at 08:43
“Anyone actually done this and, if so, how did you legally and logistically structure the arrangements for sperm storage?”
There are places in each country for sperm storage. However, my personal belief is that they are not safe. What is to stop your guvment from using your sperm and sending you the bill for the kid? Nothing.
I got snipped the very week my ex and I agreed to divorce. Kids are over-rated. I don’t recommend them to any young man any more. I recommend against it. Want a kid? Adopt or play ‘uncle’ for the kid of one of your mates.
The Fifth Horseman January 4, 2010 at 21:39
Fifth, this is why, when a man white knights, I call him a feminist mangina lackey not worthy of the title man. I rather enjoy insulting the mangina lackeys as they can’t hide behind “I am so upset you called me names” like the wimmin do.
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“The 15-20 non-feminised eastern women I have dated the last 20 months?”
How can we meet these women – please let us know?
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@ globalman January 6, 2010 at 07:50
“The 15-20 non-feminised eastern women I have dated the last 20 months?”
How can we meet these women – please let us know?
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LOL!
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The most insidous thing here is the false premise that feminists keep pushing for. They try to equate “feminist” with “equality” for example.
The study is about equal-household-chores not feminists. In my household, my father does most of the cooking, and half of the chores, coz my mother is out there working most of the time and she’s an ANTI-feminist.
Its the false premise feminists keep trying to push… “You’re not a feminist? Oh, so you hate women working” Lol… “You support women voting, oh, so you are a feminist” Lol.
That’s the number one lie they keep spreading and trying to slap the label onto everything and anything.
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Alek, I’m inclined to agree.
The study (which I have not seen) appears to indicate (from this reference) what we should have already expected…people in happy marriages will tend to have a positive attitude towards both their sex life and their spouse’s contributions towards household maintenance–and people in unhappy marriages will tend to have a negative view of both. The question is how to effectively maintain membership in the first group rather than the second–and the answer is Game.
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@Arbitrary-
Where have you been you little rascal?
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Oh, you know…there’s a conservation of Arbitrary-ness. Sometimes I’m everywhere and sometimes I’m nowhere, so that it all evens out.
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Very arbitrary of you. I follow.
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Well of course feminists are having better sex – feminism is about criminilizing any man who seeks any alternative to having sex with a feminist.. and they’re largely succeeding.
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