A murder can be a sudden, unexpected event, but sometimes you can sense it coming like a train hurtling down the tracks at night. There is something about the darkest human passions that strikes us at our very core, and nothing has such a strong emotional effect on social creatures such as ourselves as the arrival of death.
On one gray afternoon years ago, I was walking to the local convenience store when I heard a commotion from a house across the street. A man had burst out of a side door closely followed by a woman, and something about the scene immediately drew my attention. It was a working class, middle-aged black couple, the man fairly tall and and the woman stout, neither out of the ordinary in any way.
The man’s head was down and he was taking long, quick strides away from the woman, who was on his heels like a harrier. The man’s hands were spread out from his sides as though he was desperately imploring someone unseen; the woman’s hands were in front and up high, pointing, gesturing, taking an aggressive posture. In a voice that was half moan, half scream, the man shouted in a rising tone “why won’t you just LEAVE ME ALONE?” His voice was so anguished and tortured that I stopped in my tracks, staring at the couple. My first thought was to tell the woman she’d better listen to him and leave, but there’s something about a domestic dispute that gives one a strong feeling that getting involved at all is a very bad idea.
I stood watching for a moment, near a payphone on the corner of the street. I was prepared to call the police if it got any worse, but at that point I hadn’t seen any actual physical violence. Nevertheless, I felt very strongly that there was something desperately dangerous and dark about the scene I saw unfolding before me. The drama was so intense that it looked like an overacted play, but it was undeniably real, and I could feel the anguish welling up in the man through his tormented cries for relief.
Not all men have felt the black clouds of desperation and despair that blot out the light of reason, or the buzzing crescendo of insanity that overwhelms one’s senses like an angry swarm of hornets, but when a man has been stricken it is plain to see, although not easy to understand. It is something one feels, yet cannot readily explain, so I stood there watching with no real comprehension, but a deep sense of unease.
Soon, the scene appeared to calm, and the couple, perhaps sensing my attention, went back inside the house. I lingered for a minute, warily watching the house until I heard no more. I then continued on my way to the store, made my purchase, and headed back home, my eyes still on the house as I passed it again. For some time, the scene preoccupied my thoughts, but it soon passed out of mind and life went on as usual.
A few days later, while skimming a newspaper, I noticed a story about a murder. When I saw the address I stopped cold and read the story. There it was: same house, same date, same time of day. It was a short story; a simple notice of a small tragedy, such as happens every day in the city. A man strangled his wife, and then called the police to confess and turn himself in.
So I had witnessed the prelude to murder, and instinctively I had seen it coming, but I still couldn’t consciously believe it even as I watched it unfold. It struck me that violent crime can be an intimate act, often one in which the victim is very much a participant. As an outsider, I felt somewhat indecent and uncomfortable for having witnessed such a passionate exchange between two intimately-connected people who were strangers to me. For me, this posed a quandary: was my failure to intervene a moral lapse on my part? Had it been my duty to get involved?
In the abstract, of course, if I had known that the man would strangle his wife, I should have called the police. And in a sense I did know, or rather felt, that something very bad could happen. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have stopped to watch or positioned myself near the payphone. However, every bit of urban propriety and my sense of common decency had also told me that it was wrong to interfere in the intimate lives of strangers, especially in a case that was clearly not one-sided as a mugging or purse-snatching.
It is this lesson, this simple murder I saw coming, that makes me wonder whether, in our society, a private, intimate relationship between two people can exist in the framework of contemporary public morals and laws. If, as the feminists say, the person most dangerous to a woman is her intimate companion, and statistically speaking this is true, can an institution such as marriage survive laws that make interpartner violence a more serious crime than other, physically similar crimes? Can it survive a campaign to eradicate conflict between intimate partners?
Clearly, it was the ancient sense of the sanctity of such relationships that prevented me from getting involved, and possibly stopped me from preventing a murder. If it had been a conflict between two strange men or women I wouldn’t have felt any qualms about intervening or calling the police immediately, in fact, right around the same time I did break up a mugging. However, despite my reluctance to get involved, modern discourse and policy would never suggest that, at times, it is best just to stay out of it, because it has become our philosophy that the prevention of violence in relationships is a far more pressing concern than respect for or preservation of such relationships.
On the face of it, there is a strong moral case for taking preventative measures to head off interpartner violence, and for interfering whenever one has the sense that trouble is about to begin. If I had called the police right then, a woman might still be alive, and a man free. It is exactly those kinds of incidents that argue strongly for better domestic violence enforcement and more public vigilance.
But sometimes the face of things is not the entire picture. If we interfere in every domestic dispute that comes to our attention, regulating and sometimes destroying relationships, might there be some unintended consequences? Can we legislate an end to the passions that sometimes explode in the confines of an intimate relationship, or will they simply be set off in public, exposing others to the conflagration?
If we do gradually legislate an end to the sanctity of private relationships, there will eventually emerge a vagrant kind of passion, where people’s intimate lives are displayed in the open, as in a troop of baboons.
Perhaps marriage was originally conceived as a means to confine passions to private space, so as to preserve the integrity of the community by isolating the fires of passion. Our taboo against involving ourselves in the domestic disputes of others is a cultural relic of this peacekeeping practice, and we break it at our own peril. However, we have to recognize that the case for interference can be very strong, and many people, both men and women, have paid a heavy price for the survival of marriage, that oldest of all civilizing institutions. As always, we humans are ever weighing life and peace on the balance.
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{ 60 comments… read them below or add one }
If there was going to be a killing, there was going to be a killing. If you had prevented it that night, it would have happened anyway the next night.
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In the past, the sanctity of the home was counterbalanced by tighter social fabrics in the community, whether through family, friends, or religion. Family or close friends have more of a “right” to get involved in domestic problems if they see them escalating over time. Though it’s still difficult, it is less invasive and more effective than strangers or cops having to get involved.
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I don’t know what you should have done Welmer. I do think I know why he killed her. This was the only way he had to get her to leave him alone.
There will be men here who understand this. They will know what it is like to be endlessly pursued. They will know what it is like to try to hind but to never find a place far enough away.
I feel sorry for this man. For the woman I feel nothing at all.
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Welmer -
I’ve noticed recently cases similar to this, but the man will actually attempt to intervene, and end up getting injured or murdered.
One case in particular, the white-knighter got murdered while intervening for DV outside of a bar, and the woman still stuck by her man’s side. I decided then that I would never intervene in a male/female domestic situation.
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If you had called 911 the police would not have come. The dispatcher would have asked you “did either one hit, or were they just shouting?” and answering in the negative that would have been the end of it. If they had come, they would not have done anything. That might have cooled things off a bit, for a few days, or it might have made things worse.
Maybe you could have called the police and told them what you saw in the aftermath, but would it have helped him? Probably not. Sometimes there is nothing you can do.
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http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Jun/12/ln/hawaii806120345.html
Here’s the case i mentioned….pretty disgusting, actually.
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I’ll exclude myself from this because I truly loathe white knights, and don’t give a fuck about whether some bitch got killed. And this is coming from someone who stopped a rape at 17. Shame on me.
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Yeah, cops say domestic situations are often the most dangerous. Getting involved is very hazardous. That is perhaps the best argument against doing so. It’s actually kind of my point: if we insist on people always getting involved, it could well make the problem worse, and a lot of other people’s problem, too.
Nowadays, if the police had responded to your call they’d arrest the man even though the wife is the aggressor. I’m not so sure that makes the man “free”, and this injustice if anything increases the likelihood he murders his wife.
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A thoughtful article.
As someone currently enduring a false rape allegation, and reader / users of the False Rape Society blog, here is my 2 feminists worth…
Recently I corrected a document that my lawyer sent me for proof-reading, the correction I made was from “her behaviour caused me to sometimes lose my temper” to “her behaviour caused me to sometimes get angry”
The difference between “lost my temper” and “got angry” is the difference between reason and non-reason, between self-control and uncontrolled, between standing there and letting it wash over you and killing her where she stands.
In my life I have met a lot of men who could psyche themselves up to play the angry lunatic, none of them ever scared me, 99.9% of the time I’d just walk away, or just stand stock still, the other 0.1% of the time I’d just relax, let the internal smile and amusement out, and say “I can do that crazy shit too buddy, but I can do it a lot better than you. Want to see?”
Men have something inbuilt, like dogs who will roll over in submission, the submitting dog knows it is a safe, game ending, tactic.
Men won’t hit someone standing stock still.
Men won’t hit someone who smiles at their shit.
(smiles, not laughs)
In my life I have met and been intimate with two women who did not “get” this shit.
They just did not “get” when to quit, because the next word, the next action, tipped the balance from the man being angry, to the man losing his temper, and then you die.
The first one I got on my old shovelhead on my birthday and rode away into the sunset, no warning, no notice, just fuck it, I’m outta here.
The current (false rape accuser) one I was not able to just walk far enough away due to kids. Nor did I lose my temper, due to kids.
The false rape accusation, to my mind, was simply her response to not being able to goad me into putting her into hospital, so that she could call the police and “win”.
Animals just do not fight to the death for no good reason. Nor do men, on the whole.
Women do, on the whole.
The fact is these women are like mad dogs, the only thing to be done is kill it.
If you kill it yourself, like the man in the story, you still lose.
If you kill it legally, e.g. within the law, beat the false accusations, and then pursue her through the legal system with the same implacable will to destroy that she has shown you first, then you win.
You stay sane.
You stay free.
You stay morally superior.
I do not need neighbours meddling in my life, nor, crucially, do I need misandric police / laws / family courts in my life.
However, if I *must* have these things, then I must be a MAN, and that means using the tools available, adapting to the situation that actually exists, and most of all, determining to do whatever it takes.
So, in closing, here is what I have learned, here is my advice for all men, especially the younger ones.
The very first time you feel an urge to punch the bitch in the face, throw her and all her shit out in the street, do it *instantly*, do it so it is done, dusted and completed within 15 minutes.
Don’t talk to her, don’t communicate with her, don’t empathise with her, don’t feel for her, just throw her and all her shit out into the street.
If you do ANYTHING else, you could end up like me, dealing with a false rape / domestic violence / child abuse accusation, or like the guy in the story, doing jail time for murder.
(btw shouts to Snark, a fellow UK traveller on the road)
AfOR
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The more amazing thing is that more men don’t kill their wives. If I were easy to move to violence my ex would be dead. After divorce I had no less than 4 offers for her to ‘meet with a fatal accident’. One guy even offered to do the deed for ‘expenses only..no fee’.
The way women treat men now? Perhaps if more of them wound up dead they might get the message. Men are vastly stronger than women and we can kill you easily. So behave yourself.
After all. What man goes into a bar and starts pushing some huge biker around? Men instinctively know that someone who is much bigger and stronger might actually hurt them and we take this into account when we deal with men.
Women on the other hand treat all men terribly and believe that because they have a vagina they can do so with impunity.
May fav#1 is 50kgs and I am 100kgs. Yet she seems to think she is just as capable of defending herself from a man as I am of defending her from a man. Women really are that stupid.
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Where only one sides personal is political and worthy of public policy…
Where interference is only for the one sides benefit…
Where protection is good only for the one sides advantage…
You leave the other side no option but to make up their own policy about their personal, to resist all interferance and to organise their own protection.
Perhaps if more elite and non-elite males forming the cultural majority, the very architects and profiteers of this social mess, also find themselves optionless and ready to … because of a sheer lack of choice then … !
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AfOR December 19, 2009 at 12:53 pm
“The very first time you feel an urge to punch the bitch in the face, throw her and all her shit out in the street, do it *instantly*, do it so it is done, dusted and completed within 15 minutes.”
AfOR,
it is a lot harder when the bitch happens to be your wife and you happen to have two children with her who she is hitting on a regular basis and you fear for the childrens safety. Most of you young guys do not realise that this behaviour of women does not come out until after baby#2.
For example. Is there any man here who thinks tiger woods wife did not know he was screwing around? After all she was a ‘swim suite model’. What did she bring to the party? A womb. period. She nabbed him with a hot body, not her intelligence. And when does this whole thing blow up? The second baby is 10 months old. Tiger Woods wife is doing exactly what mine did. Show her true colours after the second baby when she knows she has ‘got him on the hook’.
This is why Tiger should walk away. All these people criticise him? He should walk away from EVERYTHING. No golf. No child support. No taxes. No nothing. Just say “you people don’t respect me for what I have done? Well I am done then.” Let the sponsors pull out of golf. Let everyone know that they are all watching the second rate golfers. And only when everyone BEGS him to come back should he come back. And he should double his fees for the dis-respect that he has endured. Tiger should say, you want to see the best in the world play golf? Pay up big time for your dis-respect of me. Other than that? Watch the second raters go around.
I am a Tiger Woods fan as far as his golf goes. I appreciate and understand what he has achieved. He is head and shoulders above the ‘next best’. Tiger Woods has worked his whole life to be the best golfer who ever walked onto a golf course. His talent and skill is to be savoured as possibly never to be seen again. He is the Bradman of golf. We are blessed by HIS presence not him with ours. I am sure in the 30s lots of people thought that they would see another Bradman one day. But more than 60 years after his last innings his average of 99.96 stands at almost double the 55 or so of the ‘worlds best’. I watch a guy like Brian Lara, genius that he is, play cricket and I think to my self ‘Bradman was twice as good, what must that have looked like’. I saw Sachin Tentulkar get 100 february befor last. It was one of the most exquisite innings I have ever seen in my life. It was the 100 of a true genius, a master. Yet Bradman was twice as good. This is who Tiger Woods is. We may never see the like of him again. And people are criticising him for screwing a few women? What crap is that?
All this crap about Tiger trying to be a ‘better husband and father’ is just that, crap. He is already a great husband and father. He will provide for his family better than pretty much any other man. The bitch should shut up and be greatfull that a stupid swim suite model can have such a good life. Period. Its like Lady Di. A kindergerten teacher ‘still not happy’ at being the princess of wales. Still can’t shut up and enjoy ‘the good life’.
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I one time got pushed and kicked *hard* by a girlfriend in a completely unprovoked attack. At the time, I said calmly “If you continue this, i will be forced to defend myself.” she stopped and never did that again.
In retrospect I should have dumped her on the spot, as I was taking a risk that she could have just gotten worse over time.
P.S. A few months later, her mother threw a kitchen knife at her stepfather, right in front of me. Completely unprovoked of course. So it goes…
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Globalman
it is a lot harder when the bitch happens to be your wife and you happen to have two children with her who she is hitting on a regular basis and you fear for the childrens safety. Most of you young guys do not realise that this behaviour of women does not come out until after baby#2.
Dude, it says that in my post.
Why do you think I was still around to be the victim of a false rape accusation? Cos of the kids…
“you young guys”, according to your online profile you’re younger than me.
If you and I had thrown the respective bitches out at the first sign, neither of us would be where we are.
Where I am now is simple, she declared nuclear war, fine, to the (legal) death it is, and the best man will win.
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AfOR December 19, 2009 at 2:06 pm
“Dude, it says that in my post.”
My apolgoies. In browsing your post you occued to me as ‘younger’. I just re-read your post and still can’t see reference to a number of children or long term marriage. Though it is saturday night and I am pretty drunk!
As for using the legal system. Do you know when you hire a lawyer you declare yourself mentally incompetent, a ward of the state, and waive all rights? I am using the LAWful system against my ex. I have not paid one cent in two years and she reports to the court she is miserable. Horray!! I have charged two magistrates with common law theft and propose to try them and hopefully incarcerate them. Using the common law LAWful system is much more powerful.
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So I have a personal story that the young guys might learn from.
In 2002 my ex was about 70kgs and she is 5’4 1/2″ and I am 100kgs and 6’1 1/2″. There is a sizable disparity in our size and strength. My wife abused me for most of our marriage, especially around ‘sex and intimacy’. Anyway. In 2002 I decide to ‘pull out all the stops’ in being nice to her in the prelude to asking to make love with her. I was working in New Jersey and living in Ireland. I got our eldest daughter to live with us for a year, which included moving house in Ireland to a larger place. I brought my wife over to the US to visit. We went for a few days in Boston. We stayed at the SwissHotel (USD800/night for the suite but I got good deal). I gave her money to go shopping. I took her to shows. We ate Clam Chowder at Legal Seafood. I asked her to tell me all she wished and desired and I delivered everything she could possibly want. I simply did everything I could to ‘please princess’ in the lead up to asking her to make love with me. This was on the end of about 9 years of her using sex as a weapon in our marriage. This was my ‘last big effort’ to do all I could to ‘jump start’ our love life.
Anyway, when we got back to New Jersey I asked the women I loved, was devoted to, married to, the mother of my children to make love with me. She said no. Given the previous 9 years of abuse this was the ‘straw that broke that camels back’. I lost my temper for the first, and only, time since I was 12. Since it had been nearly 30 years since I had lost my temper it took me a second to realise what was happening. As soon as I did I got up and ran from the bedroom into the bathroom. My ex had no idea what danger she was in as she ran after me and tried to come in the bathroom. We were both pulling on the door handle for a second before I pulled the bathroom door shut and locked it so that I could calm down. It took me about 5 minutes to calm down before I knew I could face her again and not hurt her. After that date I never, ever asked her for sex again, 5 more years, for fear that the next ‘no’ might spark my temper and I might hurt or kill her in my response. Asking for sex was simply off the agenda, every again.
I put that story onto the Sydney Morning Herald Blogs and the women called me a ‘wife beater’ and ‘violent’ despite the fact that what I had done was the very OPPOSITE of violence. Having realised I MIGHT be violent I got myself locked away from my wife even though I was in the middle of having completely lost my temper. That is a pretty hard thing to do.
I have said to women they are so stupid they treat men as less than dogs. Even the most stupid woman knows that if you poke a dog with a stick enough times the dog will eventually bite you. But a man? They think they can ‘poke us with a stick’ endlessly and we are supposed to just ‘suck it up’. Well, you women should listen up. There is only so much ‘sucking it up’ that us men can do. Mind you, you princesses won’t even ‘suck up’ the most innocuous of comments. Now? When I live every day without the endless ‘poking of a stick’ that my wife used to engage in, it is just bliss. Like I said. The most amazing thing, and the thing that points to men having such class, is that so few men kill their wives. It is only because I have the patience of a saint that my wife is still above ground.
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Globalman
As for using the legal system. Do you know when you hire a lawyer you declare yourself mentally incompetent, a ward of the state, and waive all rights?
Not always, lawyers are like used cars, if you buy the first one you see you deserve to be broke and waiting for a bus.
Some lawyers are excellent, and an excellent lawyer that is on your side (don’t laugh, it is no rarer than an excellent doctor etc that is on your side) is worth a million men representing themselves in court.
I will however agree that a crap lawyer (either just not very good, or who doesn’t care about you) is much much much worse than representing yourself.
Please remember, crap lawyers don’t make it through barrister to become judge.
Good lawyers do, and it is suddenly members of a club, and one of them just vouched for you.
You are surely smart enough, even drunk, to know exactly what I am saying here.
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Globalman, that was absolutely unforgivable behavior on her part. Awful.
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“Men are vastly stronger than women and we can kill you easily. So behave yourself.”
Women are very stupid about this. They have no idea how weak they are compared with men. I am very unathletic, but I still have very broad, powerful shoulders and could easily put my wife through a window. (I nearly put my brother through a window once. And he was over six feet tall).
And yet, my stupid wife keeps giving me love taps. I have started returning the compliment, and she is starting to ease off on this.
She is not a bad girl. It is just that women seem to have no idea of certain realities. She’s not a feminist, and nor did she grow up with ass-kicking fantasy babes on TV (cf. Summer Glau). I don’t know where she has got the idea that she would survive ten seconds with me if I really let loose.
I have a kind and laid-back temperament, but men are built to kill. Women should remember that.
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Speaking of interfering in the life of strangers…
To what degree is it acceptable to interfere if you overhear a woman contemplating doing a harmful action to a man, i.e. false sexual assault charge, taking custody of the kids for innocuous reasons, etc.
It’s not like the woman will listen to you anyways, but is it still worth it to but in and say something, to at least try?
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“But sometimes the face of things is not the entire picture. If we interfere in every domestic dispute that comes to our attention, regulating and sometimes destroying relationships, might there be some unintended consequences?”
I would argue the ‘the face of things’ is rarely the entire picture – and the entire picture may not be knowable in our current legal (no fault) environment. What is desired is the best ‘face’ to present to the public/media.
In the end I have simply become an advocate for the abolition of the family court system. Short of that I’d support the lynching of anyone even tangentially involved with the (so called) family court system – lawyer’s, judges, H&W flunkies, right down to the court room clerk should be drug into the street and hanged from the nearest light post – that would be justice!
Ho, ho, ho . . .
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Deborah asked…
Don’t talk to her. Talk to HIM.
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This may sound as off topic and I don’t have much energy to explain.
Why doesn’t this make anyone think about what make societies work?
To me it’s Brotherhood and respect for property rights.
Respect for property rights is what keeps society going, not much else.
Hereof follows that society is MEN, only men.
Any government is (or should be) based on agreements among men. Nothing else.
Thus it isn’t the anyone elses bussiness how you treat your wife or family, not the government, not some outsider – period.
Family relations is governed only by common culture. Malfunctioning families destroy themselves to the benefit of all others.
Civilisation and culture is a sort of ‘software’ that is passed on from father to son. This software can be destroyed so it must be preserved.
Therefore I strongly advocate Brotherhoods – multiple local brotherhoods not an all-encompassing big one.
Furthermore; The logical conclusion to man-made society is that women are not part of it although we belong to the same biological species.
Listing the references supporting this is too much work, so this is only a personal statement,
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Re: Female weakness
even without resorting to physical violence, it is pretty incredible how much “command” a man can have over a woman just through voice tone and body language. Especially since demanding and emotionally-manipulative women usually have the mind of a dysfunctional child.
In fact, a woman will probably want to get fucked by you for twelve hours straight if you successfully command her.
Remember, deep down a woman wants to submit to dominant males more than anything else in her life.
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I am with David Brandt and others who would not intervene to help a woman. But in this case it was the man who was being threatened when Welmer witnessed the incident. This is much harder to judge. I know that part of my instinct would be to help the man. But I would also be aware of a powerful reluctance on my part to get involved for fear of unforeseen consequences.
I don’t think my mind works like other peoples’. Although I understand Globalman’s story I just can not conceptualize why he would have wanted sex with her in the first place.
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I’m a lot happier now since I lost, for the most part, my anger at women. That happened after I decided that most of them take way more than they give, and I just didn’t need one any more.
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AfOR December 19, 2009 at 2:38 pm
“Some lawyers are excellent, and an excellent lawyer that is on your side”
AfOR, you might not know that ALL lawyers take an oath to the law society to ALWAYS act in the best interests of the law society…and some times that means putting on a good show so that the sheeple don’t wake up. The legal system is merely part of the control grid…nothing more, nothing less. They are DEFINITELY the enemy. Once you understand how the legal system really works you will find your comments humorous!
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AfOR December 19, 2009 at 2:38 pm
“Some lawyers are excellent, and an excellent lawyer that is on your side”
PS. Why would I want a ‘lawyer’ on ‘my side’ when I can easily refuse to be subject to any statutes that the lawyer might be hired to re-present me over? There is no law forcing me to be subject to any legislation of anything called a ‘country’.
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@ Globalman
I read the Mary_Croft.pdf book. Amazing stuff.
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Globalman:
“In 2002 I decide to ‘pull out all the stops’ in being nice to her in the prelude to asking to make love with her. I was working in New Jersey and living in Ireland. I got our eldest daughter to live with us for a year, which included moving house in Ireland to a larger place. I brought my wife over to the US to visit. We went for a few days in Boston. We stayed at the SwissHotel (USD800/night for the suite but I got good deal). I gave her money to go shopping. I took her to shows. We ate Clam Chowder at Legal Seafood. I asked her to tell me all she wished and desired and I delivered everything she could possibly want. I simply did everything I could to ‘please princess’ in the lead up to asking her to make love with me. This was on the end of about 9 years of her using sex as a weapon in our marriage. This was my ‘last big effort’ to do all I could to ‘jump start’ our love life.”
David: I was pleased to read recently that you are doing better in your private life (with a private dancing girl, no less!), but mate, what you write above is a classic example of what not to do. I gather that you have since learnt “game” and things have improved.
Remember: the less you give a woman, the more she will do for you.
In fact, my advice to a young man would be to take all the marriage advice he has ever received and simply do the opposite.
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“In fact, my advice to a young man would be to take all the marriage advice he has ever received and simply do the opposite.”
True wisdom (my own beliefs and actions have confirmed this for years anyway). If she starts up just tell her to sit down and shut the fuck up. If that doesn’t work, look up Sean Connery on Youtube. Men, it is the truth, you are dealing with beings that have a very low level of emotional maturity. You ARE NOT equal, you are men. Ok, I can hear it already, what about the bullshit DV and the police. Ask me and I’ll tell you what I will do if they ever come to my home. I have no qualms about defending my home from anyone and I will die doing so it that’s what it takes. There is a better way however, and you don’t have to put up with this shit. Men like John Nada/Fred Reed/Irlandes have proven it not only can be done, but IS being done. Why even bother with the bullshit? When I make up my mind to do something and firmly commit to it, nothing will stop me–and I mean NOTHING.
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To David Brandt and others,
There are plenty of practical things you can do right now, if you are living with a woman. If she hits you, hit her back (no harder). If she shouts at you, ignore her or make fun of her. Laugh at her if she is carrying on like a spitfire. Ignore most of what she says, except the small amount that is important to know. If she asks you to do something, don’t do it, do it slowly, do it later, do the bit you want to do, or jsut plain forget to do it. Make her work hard for everything. Limit affection. Give her few gifts, if any. Give her limited attention. Be blunt in your language with her. Laconic. Terse.
In many respects, women are inferior to men. Keep that in mind. (I remember watching a show, might have been a CSI, on TV which had pretty women manipulating a complex display. I suddenly thought – this is bullshit, these are actresses, they wouldn’t have a freaking clue how to do this in real life. Don’t let the media fool you about men and women.)
Don’t hurt her physically in any real way. A smack on the bum is usually pretty safe – I suspect that is what God gave women plump bottoms for, a safe target! But protect your own physical safety and those of your children. Otherwise do what you want, when you want.
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If you are living with a woman then I think David’s advice is good. Also never give a dam if she stays or goes. If fact going is better.
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Have you ever thought of appearing as a witness in defense of the man? He could claim emotional abuse as a extenuating circumstance. All you would need to do is contact his lawyer. Of course, you would have to be willing to sacrifice your time, energy, and emotional investment.
Definition of extenuating circumstance:
moderating factors: factors that make somebody’s actions excusable or less blameworthy
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Such is what a man is brought too. You see if he had simply slapped his wife and told her shut up and leave him the fuck alone (a freedom all women are afforded even to the point of using weapons – see the Tiger Woods case) that would have been the end of it. But no, the lid is screwed on so damn tight that when the pressure finally explodes its a murder and nothing less will do. You see *any* violence against a woman is now a greater crime than gassing a trainload of Jews at Dachau. The line is thick and it is drawn so very close and with such vicious penalties that once it is crossed you might as well go all the way. Women love this right up until the murder. They have been given such power by the state to push a man around, and they abuse him so gleefully, that it isn’t until that last minute when darkness folds up around their sight and they see the desperate man in front of them and breathe their last they realize that a jack boot isn’t there to protect them and its just too late.
Try this experiment. Take two children, a boy aged seven and a girl aged 6 and lock them in a room with some toys. Before you do this take the boy into another room and tell him flat out that he can NEVER hit the girl, never offend her, and if she loses her temper at him for ANY reason and he merely defends against her throwing something or hitting HIM he will be locked in a dark basement with a vicious frothing dog. Make sure you know how frightened he is of that dog – take him downstairs in the dark where that dog is hungry, barking, and tie it just out of reach of his face and hold the boy there for a few minutes. Bonus points if the boy has a phobia of vicious dogs. Go upstairs and tell the girl the “rules” of your game and lock the door…. how long will it take? How long before the pressure cooker you just started explodes? How long before the fear of the dog, the darkness, and the omnipresent threat of the jack book is finally FINALLY less than the present problem of forcing the boy to roll up in a little ball in front of yet another “empowered” female? Eventually the boy will crack, and when he does he may as well go all the way.
As adults our tolerance for said torture grows dramatically but the situation is the same. A vicious bleating harpy of hell is unleashed to torment the man continuously and he has no rest day or night. Eventually he’ll pick the hell of the prison over the hell of being demeaned, hit, and badgered by a lesser powerful being if only to have some pride again. It will happen and when it does it only gets a byline and some senator somewhere will call for yet another law to “protect” women. Another layer of metal to reinforce the pressure cooker to fix the problem they have created.
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Privacy said:
Yes, I’ve experienced this in my own life as well. When a gf of mine tried to pull the feminist trick of withholding sex from me one night several years back, I sat her up and with my face about 3 inches away, I basically commanded her in a calm and patient voice that as long as we are together, her body is mine, and that she is to make it available to me at all times. She quietly and submissively replied, “yes.” From that point on, I had no problems with her.
Never let a woman shame you when she accuses you of wanting “submissive” women. Submissiveness is actually a very pleasing, feminine trait. American women need to learn how to be submissive towards men.
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Brilliant Brian.
Unfortunately feminists regard this as DV!
LOL!
Anyway a just society shouldn’t have any laws on DV. It’s nobody’s bussiness how a man handles his family.
See it from the pow of society.
Things work themselves out over the long run.
Families that are abusive towards each other will not be successful and thus eliminate themselves.
This works towards constant improvement of a more efficient and kinder society!
Problem solved at no cost to society!
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Well…this is why girls should take martial arts. It makes you aware of the reality of how much stronger and more instinctively combat able men are than women. Really brings one down to earth, literally and figuratively. It will take most women years to get where a guy does from just showing up.
Having a dad helps too, and I think that’s the big issue with harpies. Most of them had weak or absent fathers.
So if you see your daughters starting to absorb some bad, anti realist influence, sign them up for Judo or something. It might save their lives in more ways than one. Not being stupid is more important than just being able to physically defend yourself.
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@Nicole-
Let me tell you what Bruce Lee taught me, and it should help even the playing field.
Step 1. Poke em in the eyes, then kick them in the nuts.
Step 2. Repeat.
Step 3. Start back at step 2.
(When you poke in the eyes, splay all your fingers out like a fan (to increase your chance of contacting an eye), with them flexed and taught, but slightly bent in so they won’t break.)
(I also suggest carrying around mace, as you are less likely to hesitate in using it versus a gun. There are very bad men out there. The MRM would do a diservice to say otherwise. Now, if we can just get women to stop being attracted to them, we can breed out sociopathic tendencies.)
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Jabherwochie, I’ll admit that I giggled.
Still, in this case, we’re not talking about bad men, just men. Men have limits and power that should be respected. A little healthy fear is good for a woman. So before one needs to break out the mace, if a man is walking away, let the dude walk.
Do not chase a guy down, corner him, or try to close him in with words. Words < fist.
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Absolutely. My advice was for life and death/rape type situations, which are less likely to happen then getting in a serious car accident. Plan for the worse, hope for the best, but take into account the percentages.
Rambling, semi OT rant begin:
I’ve avoided a beatdown or two with back handed compliments;
“Dude, I’m not going to fight you. You’d kick my ass. You’re a big fricken ogre. Like a mindless gorilla, you’d just rip me to shreds. I don’t need that, but thanks.” (I’m paraphrasing, but it was along that theme. The guy got the most confused look in his eyes as I walked away, saving my smirk for the people behind me so he couldn’t see it.)
or
“I know that look. Thats the look of crazy. I don’t fight crazy people. They don’t stop until someone is seriously hurt, and I can’t take the chance one of us might end up in jail while the other is in the hospital. Its best for everyone if you just drop it.”
By the time they’ve figured out what I’ve said, I’m half-way across the room.
If they continue to shout stuff at me, “I hear you man. You might be right.” Again, a cocky smirk only the crowd can see is always cherry. Backing down isn’t the problem, as long as its done in style. I won a high percentage of my fights by picking them wisely. My reputation got way, way overblown, practically legendary. Don’t believe the hype. I didn’t, but it also gave me enough confidence that I wasn’t afraid to fight, because if I lost one, it would just be considered an anomoly against all the ones I won (or appeared to win), and that confidence and calm helped me keep winnning. The opposite happend to me with girls. The rejections quickly threw off my game, so to speak, and the more I got rejected, the more my attitude and behavior reinforced my rejectibility. I tried to get a fresh start at college, but I only marginally did better, and soon found myself in the same feedback loop of Betaness with chicks.
Of course, I don’t walk away from fights often, I’m normally quick to fight, and when I feel like its a good bet (I’m talking in the present sense, you can tell I miss it. I haven’t been in a fight in the past 5 years, and only a handful the past decade.) I normally don’t say a single word, and don’t listen to the shit talking for more than a sentence or two, and start with a quick jab, fist vertical so I can throw it from my hip, harder to see the telegraph, and that normally gives me the momentum to control the flow of the fight. Sometimes, if group on group, I worm my way around to the back of them, (I was never one of the shit talkers, so no one noticed) where my side can see me, and when it goes down, I’d grab the biggest guy in a rear choke. Dirty? Extremely. Confusing to everyone, not just the guy I grabbed? Priceless. Then use him as shield if anyone interferes. Bury your face in him as best you can. The skull can take a lot of punishment. If I do get hit first, which was rare, and not enough people do this, cover you face, elbows pinched in front, and as calmly as possible step back and circle left and right until you form a gap. I follow the 5ft rule. Don’t allow them closer than 5ft unless you are on the offense. Bar fights, street fights, fraternity fights, the stuff I got into, which are pretty safe, no ones looking to kill anyone, at least not the places I’d hang out at, normally never lasted more than a couple minutes, thank god for me. I’m quck and strong enough, but I have horrible cardiovascular. I remember one fight, after a little bit of punching and circling, he tried to take me down, I sprawled, and then I was holding the guys arms/shoulders, his head in my torso, and I was repeatedly kneeing him for probably 30 or 40 seconds or so, which feels like 3 or 4 minutes in a fight, and the guy basically gave up, went limp, and when I let him go, he just stayed bent over looking down gasping. I’m sure I knocked the wind out of him a bit. Thing is, kneeing uses some of the biggest muscles in your body, and if you’re not conditioned right, you will exhaust yourself, like I did. I went over to my pals, and when the opposing side couldn’t see or hear me, I went straight to one of our most athletic ass kickers who I could trust and barely able to talk b/c I was so winded, I was like, “I’m done man. I can’t go anymore. Make sure this shit don’t start back up.” And walked to the back of my group hoping everything would die down. It did thank god.
I hope to work on my cardio, anaerobic is best I here for combat, but I’ve thrown up twice in Ju-Jitsu class in the past year already. I’m that bad. Gotta stop smoking weed everyday. I’d tried to give myself the nickname One-Lung in class, but it didn’t stick. You can never give yourself a nickname for some reason. God. Nicknames. Mine were Egg early on, as in Egg head, Ning, as in Ning-Ning, which is what my group called goths and other related freaks and geeks, and then in college, Flashy, as in I dress, decorate, and my car looks like it all came from good-will.
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Oh, and my fighting started in elementary school, as kids made fun of my speech impediment. Me and my older brother were always banging on each other so it came natural to fight back, so when a kid would make some snarky comment, I’d push him down. They normally acted like a baby about it. I assume most of these kids never had someone lay a hand on em’. I didn’t start throwing punches until middle school. My older brother, for all his meaness and envy towards me, it was the best thing in the world, as we pushed each other to be better men in our areas of weakness. He was the dumb jock who now has an MBA. I was the geek who beat up jocks for sport (and am generally not afraid of confrontation). Some of the best fighters I knew where twins, who basically of equal ability, constantly fought and trained each other through out their youth, always trying to one up the other one, and prove his uniqueness or superiority or something. I’m suprised not to see any MMA twins. Anyone know of any?
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“Remember: the less you give a woman, the more she will do for you.”
Absolute rubbish, David!
I myself would not like a smack on the bottom.
I have long been disturbed by your posts David. That your wife asked you to smack her around is indeed no indication of what women in general want. She obviously has issues that should be discussed with a qualified therapist.
You are treating your wife like a doormat. Do you really think that she will love and respect you for that?
Men and women should be considerate of one anothers feelings..
My husband works hard. When he comes home I welcome him with a hug and a cold beer. I often massage his neck and back. He in turn will compliment me on the dinner I have cooked for him and give me a cuddle
He is the head of the household. He controls the finances. However, he always asks my opinion before he makes any important decisions.
Even though sometimes I suspect he has already made up his mind about something he will still ask me for my input. Why? Because he is a considerate and caring man.
A woman who submits to her husband should be treated with love and respect. A husband who loves and cares and provides for his wife and family should likewise be treated with great love and respect.
I love my husband deeply. He is a good husband and father . He is not a gift giving and flowers kind of guy, but he loves me and that is all I care about.
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@Kathy Farrelly
Not ALL women are like that, huh????
-Well, MOST men WILL kill you, if you push them too far !!!
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Yeah, the advice from David is fine, works well and do not care about women who disagree.
They are not or equals, not at all.
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Damnit Kimski – that’s my line . . . ! LOL!
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@Ragnar
Take it up with the one that gave me the red pill…Oh, btw, that would be you!
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Kathy Farrelly:
“Remember: the less you give a woman, the more she will do for you.â€
Absolute rubbish, David!
I myself would not like a smack on the bottom.
I have long been disturbed by your posts David. That your wife asked you to smack her around is indeed no indication of what women in general want. She obviously has issues that should be discussed with a qualified therapist.
You are treating your wife like a doormat. Do you really think that she will love and respect you for that?”
David: Let me make a few points, Kathy. She asked me to smack her around once, when we were courting. People go a little crazy at that stage. We have been married for over twenty years, so we must be doing something right. The remark about her needing therapy would seem to be exactly what the men here call “shaming language”. I am sure she is no more peculiar than any other woman.
Yes, she likes being spanked. I have seen figures that one-third of married women like this.
My wife is a volatile woman. She is not a china doll. To be honest, she can be a bit physically aggressive, with me and our children. I NEED to use “game” to keep her under control. I don’t want her accidentally hurting me or our children. This is a matter of survival for me – mental and even physical.
As I have said, “game” works. I have always done this unconsciously, and I have also at times “supplicated”. Believe me, “game” has always made for a happier home all around. Whereas my “supplication” has led to mutual hatred.
My wife regularly threatens to leave, etc. etc. My world has grown a lot more enjoyable since I “called her on her bullshit” as Americans say. These days, if she threatens to leave, I tell her to go. She always stays. Funny that.
I have woken up to the reality of women. I don’t put them on a pedestal and so on. I feel like I finally understand how to run a happy home. I wish I had known all this ten years ago.
I make no apology for doing what works. I think women have their points, but they are no more moral than men or more intelligent. In fact, I think on the whole they are less moral and intelligent. If more young men knew this, they would not be so disappointed when their lovely bride turns out to be only a woman after all.
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Many women but by no means all like being spanked.
Several women I have seen in the past liked a good spanking on the ass & sometimes asked for it. I doubt they all had psychological problems or needed to see some therapist who would spew some psychobabble.
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My wife likes to be spanked sometimes. It is not something we do all the time, but she has consistently asked for this for over twenty years of our marriage. In fact, it was one of her first requests of me when we were “dating”.
I suppose I have spanked her maybe 100 times. She likes to be put over my lap, to have me take her panties down, and for me to give her a spanking with my hand. Sometimes I get her to stand in the corner afterwards, panties down. This is all her idea more than mine. This typically lubricates her, and leads to sex.
Since practically every American woman, including Kathy I suspect, is de facto a feminist, they find this aspect of their sex’s behaviour embarrassing. Men are constantly shamed for their sex’s behaviour. But women have a lot to be ashamed of too. It’s called being human.
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“Since practically every American woman, including Kathy I suspect, is de facto a feminist, they find this aspect of their sex’s behaviour embarrassing.”
Lol, David, nice try with the shaming language. And, I am, as most know here, not American, but Australian.(for what it’s worth)
I only mentioned about the therapist because in one comment you said that your wife asked you to “smack her around” Certainly not the same as a spanking., and to me a very troubling sign. Peculiar, yes. I do not know of any other woman of my acquaintance who has ever wanted to be “smacked around”
“My wife regularly threatens to leave, etc. etc”…. and
“Whereas my “supplication†has led to mutual hatred.”
No one should have to beg and plead, David. Sounds like she is more trouble than she is worth, too much hardwork.
I do not think that love and respect and “game” are mutually exlusive in a marriage.
Slwerner, has given good examples of this..
I myself employ a kind of game in our marriage to keep from getting into a rut, and to keep the passion burning.
Explicit text messages. Whispering risque things into hubby’s ear while I massage his back and shoulders, etc. It works a treat, for both of us.
Hubby has a very demanding business. He is tired when he gets home.
Why should he have to do all the work ( on me ) when he gets home too?
As you are an Australian, David, I am fascinated how you seem to know so much about the American man and woman?
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As I have already said, Kathy, it was one occasion, over twenty years ago; and I still maintain that references to “therapists” are a form of shaming language. Perhaps that was why I thought you were American. They are always advising each other to “seek professional help”. It is a form of insult.
My wife is very good to me in a practical sense. But she can be shrill and “high maintenance”. But it is clear, from the experiences described by other men, that she is not uniquely difficult. She just needs intelligent handling, “game”; and this has already helped enormously.
I am pleased that you say your husband is the head of the house. Frankly, you sound a bit too good to be true. You remind me of another Australian girl who posted on one of these sites recently saying that she and all her friends want to meet and marry dominant men. I remember thinking, where were you when I was young?! I moved in some religiously conservative circles, and I never met a woman like that. Let’s put it this way, maybe you women really exist, but you are culturally silent.
I haven’t heard an Australian woman say, publicly, that her husband is the head of the house in decades.
By “supplicate”, I don’t mean beg. I mean try too hard to please. Maybe you are an exception, but in most cases this leads to a woman becoming irritated. It is practical insight like this which is the really useful part of game.
The truly fascinating thing is that game is totally paradoxical. Treat a woman too well, and she doesn’t respect you. I’m sorry if this offends your feminine sensibilities, but it is true. Once, I would have thought that my wife and I are unique in this regard. Now I realise that we are not. She is a fairly typical woman and there are things I can do to improve our emotional situation. Game.
I said to an unmarried male friend recently, that the silliest thing was that the only really good advice on handling women I ever heard was a remark by an “unenlightened” young man at a college I was at, whom I heard say, apropos of women, “treat ‘em mean and keep ‘em keen”.
There is more wisdom in that remark than in twenty books of advice on marriage and in 100 articles in glossy magazines on “relationships”.
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“treat ‘em mean and keep ‘em keenâ€. ??
What does that really mean?
Just say, for instance, that my hubby ignored me, never asked my opinion, never complimented me on the meals, that I cook for him… How in heavens is that going to make me more conducive to wanting sex with him, eh?
)
Beats the hell outta me ! (pun intended
David, it is not that I am opposed to a bit of rough and tumble. I love nothing more than being surprised from behind in the kitchen whilst doing the dishes.( when the kids are in bed of course) Hubby ignores(the right time to ignore) my protestations. This is one of those occasions where no means yes!
I think that a balance is necessary in a marriage.
Yes, my husband is the head of the household. He controls the finances, he is the breadwinner. However he always asks my opinion on important matters. I do not work outside the home. Have’nt since my daughter was born 13 years ago. I do a little work at home for our business. My husband wanted me to stay home once the kids came along, and I agreed. He never pushed me to do this , however. He explained why he believed it to be a good thing for our family. So yes, I am completely dependent upon him. I am quite happy to admit it. For some reason, many women are horrified at the prospect of being totally dependent (and therefor vulnerable) on their husbands. Not me.
I love and trust my husband.
I gave up a well paid job (I owned my own car and had a villa with a modest mortgage) to look after my husband and family. It was hard to do initially, but it has certainly been worth it. I have never looked back. That’s not to say that marriage is all beer and skittles. It can be a tough gig when the kids come along. This is why I work to make sure that the passion doesn’t die. Kids can be demanding, and sometimes the physical side of marriage falls into neglect, to the extreme detriment of the marriage.
I believe having good parents as role models helped shape my outlook. My own mother never worked once she had kids, and she always looked nice and tidy when Dad would arrive home from work. She was always very careful about her weight, too., always taking pride in her appearance. I have fond memories of Dad grabbing Mum and giving her a kiss and a hug when he came home from work.
And btw, I don’t need to be smacked around to realize how lucky I am either.
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Perhaps you are different Kathy, but as I said my wife is volatile. She is very sweet in many ways, but she has always been a teensy bit immature.
Just this morning, she lost her temper with me because I would not jump quickly to smell whether a defrosted duck was fit to eat or not. I refused to bend to her tantrum and insisted that she bring it to me to smell it. I refuse to be at the beck and call of a grumpy wife. Do you have any idea how much a man can suffer if he lets himself be nagged and abused by his wife? She is slowly learning to be more polite. Perhaps next time it will be, “Smell this, please. What do you think?”
She’s a good girl on the whole, and an excellent housewife. She regularly asks my permission to spend money; she has always been pliable in the more intimate part of our marriage; she is a dutiful mother; but I am sorry to say that she needs firm handling.
I do not physically or mentally abuse her. I tease her a bit, and if she insults me, I insult her back. It is mostly playing around.
I spank her (on the bottom, in the traditional way!) because she asks me to. I quite like it, but she really loves it when she is in the mood. Sorry to be crude, but it lubricates her.
My wife is fundamentally an attractive woman; nice skin, pretty, tall and quite shapely; but over the last ten years she let herself go quite badly with excess weight. For moral and religious reasons (and because we have three children together), she is my only option. I have to live with her, preferably happily. I have found that since using these game techniques, she is more respectful, more polite and she has – amazingly – finally gotten serious about losing weight. She is starting to look really quite nice for her age.
You seem like a nice woman, and please don’t take offence at what I say. This is a blokes’ group and men can get a bit crude (so can women when they are with their friends). But I feel sorry for these men who say their wives have cut off sex. My wife has tried this a bit, and what worked the last time in getting her interested was a few smacks on the bottom to wake her up. I know this sounds like “Australian foreplay” (!) but it actually works. It beats Jewish foreplay (“two hours of begging”).
“Treating her mean” for me means turning on the cold scientist side of my personality, and my inner male chauvinist, and turning off my “nice guy” side (which is pretty strong – I am a notoriously kind boss at work). Nothing dramatic. It’s not hard work; it’s not abuse; it’s just being mentally firm.
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Kathy says, “Men and women should be considerate of one anothers feelings.”
Yes they should, but being deluded about what those feelings are, gets many men and women into trouble.
There is a big difference in the mentality of women who had certain advantages due to beauty/youth, and women who didn’t, regardless of what they actually look like. The lucky have to be treated differently, and actually want to, if they have a shred of honor. They don’t want someone who will let them get away with things, and they understand that if someone lets them walk over him, they will. I’d say a woman who accepts her nature with a guy who accepts her nature is a balanced relationship. Same with a guy who accepts his nature with a woman accepting his nature.
Much is individual, but a good proportion of the issues between people in heterosexual relationships are near universal. Most women, left to their own devices, will get into parasitic martyr or parasitic harpy, without people (especially male role models and their mate) keeping that in check. This is because of a combination of social expectations that can get twisted without guidance, and plain old human nature that people need to be told no in order to not become spoiled.
It can be hard to imagine what someone goes through who has to learn balance, if your own relationships have been good. What might snap you out of a bad direction might not work for a woman who was overly coddled for too long.
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“beer and skittles”
I like that for some reason. Seems…relaxed. Did you come up with it, or hear it from someone. No need to lie. I steal a lot of my material. There is a saying in the art world, paraphrasing of course, “Good artists borrow ideas. Great artists steal them.”
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Nicole:
“It can be hard to imagine what someone goes through who has to learn balance, if your own relationships have been good. What might snap you out of a bad direction might not work for a woman who was overly coddled for too long.”
David: Thanks for your comments, Nicole. Insightful. My wife has actually said she sees me as a daddy figure. What works with Kathy probably won’t work with her!
Jabberwocky, “beer and skittles” is an old English expression, from Northern England. “Life is not all beer and skittles”.
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I wouldn’t say that I was necessarily different, from women in general, David.
I think that my husband is more rational, sensible ,and level headed than I . Men normally are, I think. I am a passionate, impulsive and affectionate person. I can sometimes get a bit cranky just before my period is due, but hubby just ignores me then.
I think too, that most women act a bit childishly (as many men have noted) from time to time. I admit to having been guilty of this, too. Men on the other hand are more controlled, sensible and…. well….. manly!
When our nine year old boy fell over and broke his nose about five years ago, I was beside myself. I saw blood and panicked..Hubby , cool and calm, as ever, took control and quickly scooped up our son and whisked him off to hospital.
“But I feel sorry for these men who say their wives have cut off sex.”
I do too David. I have said before in this forum, I don’t believe a wife has the right to refuse her husband sex. I certainly wouldn’t like it if my husband ever rejected my advances (he never has, phew!) I would be extremely hurt, as I have never rejected his.
Possibly it is because I have a high libido myself. It is certainly not in my own interests to cut off sex, cause …if HE AIN’T gettin’ any, I AIN’T EITHER!
Thanks for explaining more fully, David. If it works for you. you must be doing something right.
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“I steal a lot of my material.”
Me too, Jabberwocky from home.
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