A 30 something woman at work divorced her husband several years ago because she was sleeping with his best friend. Unable to deal with the betrayal; the husband steered the relationship into the ground – minus the safe landing pulled off by Capt. Sully. Before her treacherous escapades began, my coworker coaxed her husband into becoming swingers in order to fill the void that a lone penis couldn’t fill. It dawned on me: swinging is backdoor cuckoldry – husband-approved.
This article in TangoMag described a DC swinger coven. The article makes clear that swinging is “all about the women”. In this underground world, women call the shots. They decide which couples are attractive enough and whether or not the vibe between the dyad is fluid.
Lori, a DC-AREA LAWYER and mother of two, describes the process by which she shamed cajoled her husband into the lifestyle:
“Me, me, me, me, I’m a selfish shrew. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Pussy. You’re not a man if you don’t swing.”
Oh shit, sorry, I was typing in a foreign language: femmespracht. Here’s what Lori actually said in English.
“I’m bisexual and a very sexual person. My husband and I had conversations about it even before marriage, and in the years that followed he wasn’t interested at all, so I dropped the topic.”
Six years later, after talking the issue over for a year, the husband caved and started accepting sensory-dulling sexual electroshock therapy in the form of other women in exchange for foreign dong intrusions into his wife’s private parts. If she’s not into swinging solely to have intercourse with another man, she’s made clear that she’s interested in the other woman – basically marginalizing the men. For both husbands, they have to live with the fact that not only does their wife have sex with another man – causing lifelong flashbacks and PTSD (Post Traumatic Swinging Disorder) – they aren’t even wanted by the other wife they’re banging. Swinging is a ploy for women to get their rocks off; the cost is male emasculation.
As I’ve mentioned before, the act of lesbianism should be unappealing and lackluster to men. As a man, my penis is as welcome in that setup as a turkey at a vegan Thanksgiving. The appeal of lesbos is their attractiveness as two seperate naked entities, not as an intertwined erotic act.
After hitting the Two-Year Wall, an ex-girlfriend of mine started talking about how she wanted to have a threesome with me and another girl. Most guys would jump at this opportunity to check one of the boxes on their “bucket list”, but like a Grandmaster Chess player, I saw several moves ahead. The relationship was faltering, and my girlfriend at the time was no lesbian. She was trying to outflank me by offering up the vagina of another woman as a peace offering then using that Trojan horse to introduce other ball sacks into the mix. It was cunning strategy on her part, but common sense told me all was not as it seemed. I shot down all mention of threesomes and got shit from my friends for not capitalizing on the situation, but I wasn’t willing to accept sex from another woman if that meant my girlfriend would have a reasonable argument to take the sexual experimentation to other realms. Whether she ultimately sought to incorporate another guy into the mix, I’m not sure, but I didn’t want to leave that door open.
Threesomes are for singles. For men in LTRs or marriages, the lifestyle sounds like a deal with the devil. Women take advantage of the faulty ground men occupy in today’s society. Turning over the sexual decisions to the feminine is all-too-common among men today – the feminists are jumping out of their Birkenstocks. Always remember, when something sounds too good to be true, it is. As we have learned repeatedly in our studies of evolutionary psychology and the disparate natures of men and women, how can we expect both sexes to have similar peachy-keen responses to such hedonistic endeavors? Also, do alpha/beta dominance hierarchies suddenly disappear among swingers? One couple or one particular person is going to be more attractive; there is always fallout from such incongruencies. We can’t rationalize these tendencies in order to make swinging work, so its a situation best left alone.
I’ll end with a follow-up question that I posed to my co-worker. I asked her if its true that swingers are able to overcome their jealousy; I’ve always heard the meme that swinging leads to healthier relationships blah, blah, yadda. Speaking for herself she said that she became extremely jealous of the wives of the other men; not because they scored with her husband but because they had more steady access to their own husbands; her husband couldn’t handle the jealousy either. She also pointed out that most couples she knew became overly jealous in one way or another and that fights were common. Her first-hand account is completely opposite that of the TangoMag article; my gut instinct tells me to believe that the coworkers experience is more true to life.
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Behind these words lies the unspoken assumption that the women are in charge, and would remain so even if the situation blossomed into a threesome. Given this assumption, it’s totally understandable why you would find it all boring or even off-putting.
For the classic horndog who’s always looking for a good hustle, though, it’s a classic opportunity. See below.
Wha…? Really?
Chuck, sex is the one area of life in which nothing is reciprocal, and in which reciprocity kills essentially all enthusiasm. She almost certainly didn’t want to fuck other guys, although she might throw some giant but easy-to-pass shit test in your direction regarding such iniquities.
I’m sure she had an agenda. In fact:
Epoxy law #101.1(a): Whenever a woman explicitly suggests that a relationship change in any non-trivial way, she always has a hidden agenda.
Always.
So yeah, she wanted something, but that something was likely not for you to follow suit and accept other men. Rather, that something was probably resources, of some kind or another (tangible or otherwise).
The real Grandmaster move here would be the following:
* Realize she’s got an agenda. Distance yourself accordingly.
* Play on the newfound distance to make her promise you dirtier and dirtier acts. Give her an inkling that you’ll pull back toward her if she does as she’s told, but confound her with additional aloofness (which, of course, will be totally genuine given that she’s shown her hand as a womanipulator).
* When the night arrives, treat both girls as your toys. Dictate their every move. Physically arrange them with your hands, as though you’re arranging a carnal diorama. Cajole them. Raise your voice. Make them want to be dirty girls. Don’t kiss them. Make the closing scene of Requiem for a Dream yours, except with more active participation on your part. Oh, and tape it for posterity (and security).
* Remain distant.
To out-manipulate a manipulator is one of the great joys in life, whether you’re playing a shell game, buying consumer durables, exploiting dealers’ tells in a casino, or doubling down (in both ways) on your girl’s bluff.
Just plan ahead, protect yourself against possible psycho moves, and then go for it. Unless you find real, true love, you will never feel more alive.
epoxy:
as for the threesome/swinging part – it does depend on the desires of the women. if they are down for the experience because they want to seek pleasure from another woman (which the article i cited describes as a major reason women seek out swinging), then the man is ancillary to the act. if it is of a more sexual nature in which everyone is getting their rocks off, the threesome can be handled the way you very poignantly describe.
you are correct that i could have used her manipulation to my advantage, but i was of the frame of mind at the time (a very anti-Game one I might add) of either wanting it all or nothing at all i.e. her and only her or no relationship. i didn’t want to share and didn’t want to entertain any notion of other people mixed up in our relationship. so yes, it was a major shit test; her ultimate desires are unknowable to me.
perhaps grandmaster is too strong a word for how i handled it. i had no thought of Game. my realizing that her just wanting to have a simple threesome was my grandmaster like insight which wouldn’t have been too hard for most guys to see; i just liked the imagery.
You girlfriend most likely wanted for you and her to have a good time with another women. The most likely scenario is if you both liked it she would want it again with another woman. The woman is the motive.
lol. That’ll never happen.
.
Completely wrong. Like, about as wrong as you could possibly be.
You’re generally an awesome blogger, Chuck, but this claim is about as reasonable as saying that wives are, by and large, forced into conspicuous consumption to keep their husbands happy.
I can see why you might think this – namely, because you’re working with a sample size of 1 – but, um, no.
This may be more often true for the subset of swingers who are actively into the “cuck/hotwife” scene – which usually includes extramarital encounters only for the wife, not for hubby (who’s sometimes not allowed sex with anyone). Most of those weird guys actually want to be emasculated, to the point where they actually want to do things like take feminizing hormones, “clean up” after wifey has an interracial gangbang, and even support the children she conceives in these, um, dalliances. Yes, these people really exist, but they constitute an incredibly tiny fraction of the alt-lifestyle population (the preponderance of cuck porn notwithstanding).
But, for the mainstream of swingers (yeah, I know that sounds contradictory, but bear with me here), you’ve got it completely backward: it is overwhelmingly, almost exclusively, the husband who cajoles his initially reluctant wife into the lifestyle.
See here:
husbands initiated swinging activities 58.7% of the time, and wives initiated it 12% of the time
…
Women are introduced in swinging by their spouses, and while many wives are initially rather reluctant to get involved in swinging (perhaps fearing their spouses or their own emotional involvement), once they do, they accept initial experiences more successfully than males, who may be turned off by the experience and feel jealousy (of the sexual kind).
Women on the other hand are more drastic, they either become enthusiastic converts or are completely turned off by the experience.
Also see here. Or basically any other study on the topic.
Or go collect a sample size greater than 1.
–
The real truth of the matter is that it’s almost always the husband who introduces the wife into the lifestyle, because HE thinks only of getting HIS rocks off in the short-term and is utterly ignorant of the “positive feedback loop” of addictive female sexuality. Weirdly, this even tends to be the case for the masochistic cuckold “hotwife enabler” types.
The problem is that these guys are projecting male attitudes onto women. Men can totally be brought back into the fold by offerings of sex that’s “among” rather than “between”, with extra girls.** Women, on the other hand, have a much greater chance of becoming disconnected from sex with their husbands, or of becoming addicted, as a result. (And female sex addiction is, of course, a much much much bigger deal than male sex addiction, since women have no trouble finding partners, and can fuck more or less indefinitely given the right appurtenances).
The danger is not certain, though; there are definitely couples who really don’t get jealous, enjoying their multiple partners as they would the season’s newest varietals. (From what I’ve seen, though, most of these couples tend to have mannish wives with mannish occupations, and they tend to conduct their daily affairs in a disconcertingly businesslike way.) But there’s no question that most of the guys are just horndogs who don’t understand the risk they’re taking.
–
But you are dead right about one thing: If the woman wants to initiate swinging, it’s Over, with a capital O.
** oh yeah, the footnote: Of past partners who’ve baited me with this sort of stuff, all turned out to be backstabbing viper types.
I’m really happy in my current (completely monogamous) relationship now. Primarily because I’m the unabashed leader, we see eye-to-eye on important values, and we’re, um, compatible in ways that are hard to find. But also because my experience has taught me that all girls readily offering up non-monogamy have downsides (down-down-down-sides, in some cases) that just Ain’t Worth It.
The ones I’ve known who were into it were hookers. I wouldn’t do it with them, despite being freely offered the opportunity on a couple of occasions, because I was too scared of STDs. Too bad — they were pretty hot and they didn’t expect anything from me but a romp in their hotel room.
If I were offered it again today, I’d strongly suspect that the girl is, or had been, a prostitute. Lots of women have engaged in prostitution, and you’d never suspect it without a good deal of life experience that would clue you in. Orgies or threesomes are one of those indicators.
Epoxytocin No. 87,
You have a fantastic website.
A more likely explanation is that it is always the man’s fault, no matter what.
So, why should anyone be surprised that “it turns out the man did it”. Gee, you explanation is so BOLD and so DIFFERENT.
Internetwood, just because society is permissive towards women blaming men for everything (of course because we are usually the ones expected to initiate) and we PUA/MGTOW/MRAs are well aware that this is a form of women’s modus operandi of manipulation while simultaneously feigning innocence and leaving men to blame, does not mean that everything men are to responsible for is due to said manipulation.
“husbands initiated swinging activities 58.7% of the time, and wives initiated it 12% of the time…women… accept initial experiences more successfully than males, who may be turned off by the experience and feel jealousy (of the sexual kind).”
I sense two evo-psych forces at play here.
One is the natural male animal instinct to spread it far and wide. This may be responsible for the initial male enthusiasm for doing it with two chicks at the same time.
The other is the female animal instinct to receive it from as many desirable men as practical. This may be responsible for the initial reluctance of a not-previously-initiated-to-group-sex female…because the involvement of another person initially threatens the bond–and therefore access to resources–she has presently with her man. If she hasn’t been involved with group sex before, her natural instinct is to defend that resource access and not threaten it.
I note that this discussion makes no mention of FMM sex or MM sex. And this is an indicator that swinging is a sucker bet for men as Chuck suggests. As we know, women’s sexuality is quite fungible–they are literally switched on by just about any source that has a hint of eroticism–even, disgustingly, depictions of animals having sex (which may help explain the recent spate of lycanthropic love objects in women’s fiction). Straight men…95-odd percent of the male population–on the other hand are much more tightly grouped on what turns them on….women, and only women. Thus the man that opens this door for his heretofore reluctant wife (I agree with Welmer that women who respond positively to this without much coaxing have been there before or are whores or both) is doing himself a great disservice.
I also speculate that there may be an age cohort effect with this, in that the under-25 set…the women born 1985 or later…are much much different in their mores than those born 1980 or earlier. Something happened between the two generations of women, a tectonic shift in their morality that I think our society is only just now coming to grips with. The younger chicks have been shown to be much more promiscuous than their elder sisters; I suspect that they are much less gender-normed in their sexual preferences than their older sisters as well. Thus, while the mores of women that us old men on this board have come in contact with would naturally reject group sex, I’m not confident that younger women would be inclined to do so as strongly. In short, they are more open minded to morally deviant and socially unconstructive behavior.
Perhaps it is because they’ve already been shown that being a slut– particularly being bi–in no way harms a woman’s ability to secure resources in our society, and may even be advantageous in a world where sexuality is king and fidelity is passe.
Going back to Chuck’s main point, the act of introducing other women into their relationship is a bad move for men. It may sound nice at first, but the damage that said act does to the bond between a man and his woman is probably irrecoverable.
“it is overwhelmingly, almost exclusively, the husband who cajoles his initially reluctant wife into the lifestyle.”
I agree completely Epoxy. Accepting this truth doesn’t place any undue blame upon the husband. It is merely accepting the truth in how male and female sexuality are different. Men are far more turned on by the idea of multiple partners than women.
A little more than a few thousand years ago, almost every society on the face of the planet was made up of polygamous pairings where one man had multiple wives. The societies where women have had a multitude of husbands are non-existent.
A man can have multiple sexual partners and still maintain the original love he has for his wife – or main wife in the case of polygamy.
Women, on the other hand, when having sex with another man – start developing romantic feelings towards the other man (or other woman).
Also, Epoxy, you’re right about another thing. When a man suggests swinging, he wants to get his rocks off; When a woman suggests it, the relationship is OVER!
IIRC, men tend to come harder and ejaculate more sperm into their partners if they have come back from being away or otherwise suspect she may have been unfaithful. I have heard the theory that swinging men are playing off this to really get themselves off after watching their her with someone else.
It has been my observation that even among “open” couples, defiling the marital bed reliably leads to ruin. It does not really matter how hip or enlightened you thinnk you are. This kind of thing is relationship death. A threesome with a girlfriend is just recreation since there is no certain intent of marriage. But once you get to that point, the single recognized inviolable element if marriage is exclusiveness. If you are not willing to do that, then your marriage has no point and you may as well just play house together until someone else strikes your fancy.
WRT swinging, I must caveat my remarks that I have no personal experience in this kind of thing, but it seems to me, that no matter which spouse initiates the behavior, there will be a one-to-one ratio of incidence of adultery, with each spouse gaiing exactly the same benefit of experience, at least until the message gets firmly ingrained that spousal participation or notification in swinging is not required. Then it becomes indistinguishable from the common forms of adultery and the most motivated spouse will get the most benefit from the arrangement.
Actually, it might mean that the relationship was a farce from the beginning. If a woman suggests swinging, she’s probably already emotionally damaged and unable to pair-bond properly. If she thinks, “Hey, I don’t mind if someone else shags my husband!” it’s because she doesn’t feel as intense of a connection with him — she’s DBR.
My first boyfriend had dated a girl before me and was soooo in love with her. She dumped him for a girl. That was a humongous blow to his self-esteem. He said later he should have seen it coming because when they were out together she’d point to other women and make comments like, “Do you think she’s attractive? I’d do her,” and make references to orgies.
Wapiti,
You’re right about younger women. They are often emotionally damaged beyond repair (DBR). They’ve been taught that being “bad” is good and strive to live up to that image, even if they have to tear their souls to shreds to do so. There’s a lot of anal sex among young women, too. I’ve asked some of my friends if they like it and they’ll say, point blank: “No, I hate it. It makes me feel like I’m worthless and a whore and it hurts terribly. But don’t tell my boyfriend. I pretend to like it.” You know, they don’t want to be prudes. They’d rather die and be treated like dirt than be thought a prude. They are promiscuous for the same reason.
It’s part of the feminist fairy-tale that men help promote: promiscuous sex is empowering for women, men don’t want to marry virgins, an affair is enlightening, etc.
I’ll never forget when I decided to stop running in the rat race and abstain. Do you know how many men hounded me, tried to convince me that I was making a big mistake, I’d end up an old spinster, or that nobody would want me if I didn’t “give it up” for them? Do you know how much effort they put into that? If refusing sex isn’t empowering, why weren’t they chasing the slutty ones? Why wouldn’t they leave me the heck alone?
Wapiti,
That bit about women turned on even by animals got me thinking. A recent routine I’ve been using in night-game is about Pandas. It sort of starts like a female opinion opener and expands:
- Do you think Panda’s should be allowed to die out?
- Well, apparently the WWF, and I don’t mean the pro wrestling, has to spend millions keeping them alive because they are just crap bears.
- What do you mean, “aw they’re cute”. They are crap bears. They just lie on their arses all day eating bamboo. They probably get bullied in the forest by the proper bears. That’s why they’ve all got two black eyes.
- Pandas are so crap they don’t even have sex. Really, the Chinese scientists had to show them panda porn so they’d get it on. The boy panda will have a big TV in his room where…… [describe panda sex]
Now I thought this was just a silly routine. Now I’m wondering if it’s a good verbal sexual escalation. Ha!
You people have zero experience with what you’re talking about, yet you proclaim broad generalities about it. Fucking morons.
I’ve been married 11 years, non-monogamous for the past 8 of those. I can assure you it does indeed work for some people.
Quick question for anyone in the know. In polygimous marraiges, ancient or modern, does it ever occur that the husband will bed his multiple wives at the same time, or any other type of sexual situations involving “group sex” in some way? It would seem like a logical progression, especially over an extended time, yet I’ve never heard stories of it happening. If I had three wives, I’d imagine I would encourage them to work together and with each other to heighten my arousal.
“P December 2, 2009 at 9:01 am
You people have zero experience with what you’re talking about, yet you proclaim broad generalities about it. Fucking morons.
I’ve been married 11 years, non-monogamous for the past 8 of those. I can assure you it does indeed work for some people.”
We’re just debating about an area most of us would admit we have no experience in. That doesn’t make us morons. It makes us curious. We infer what we can. Their has been not broad agreement here. If you would like to enlighten us, you’ve done a poor job. A job I would equate to that of a moron. Try again, and this time be nice. And fucking sheep works great for some people too, doesn’t mean its psychologically healthy for most. How high is your horse? Or is your anger an ego defense mechanism because you know your family life is deviant (not that I have anything wrong with deviance, you just seem overly angry)?
How old are you? How old is your wife? Were you a swinger before your current relationship? Tell us about it. We’d like to learn.
Jaberwochie, speak for yourself.
I don’t want to learn about this, just as I don’t want to learn about why pedophiles like raping little children, or men get off buggering sheep, or women who have an intimate relationship with a horse, or about parents who encourage their 8 year-olds to come out of the closet. Some people are just sick in the head and lacking any vestige of moral compass and I’m not going to encourage them by placating to them or pretending to think it’s all okay. It’s not okay. Some things are just wrong.
And is the lack of precisely that instinct that is leading to the downfall of our civilization.
Non-monogamous marriage = roommates with benefits. Please don’t call it marriage and insult my intelligence. At least, if you are going to act like a deviant, divorce your wife and live openly in sin. As it is, you are reaping the societal benefits of marriage while breaking your covenant. Anyone who cheats on his wife, even with her consent, is an adulterer.
Do I look like I was born stupid? You, Mr. P Sir, are a LIAR.
That is contiguous with proclaiming that you are pro-choice. What a bunch of absolute poppycock. The opposite of pro-life is pro-death. Either you are for killing babies or you are against it.
People need to start calling things as they are instead of all this PC crap. “Open marriage” is an oxymoron.
And they wonder why kids today are so fucked up. It’s because the adults are fucked up.
Yes, I’m royally pissed off today. No, I don’t care if it bothers you. Some things just need to be said.
Keep that up and you’ll become an activist.
BTW, this is all from the 70’s sexual revolution.
The 70s sexual revolution was a narcissistic joke.
Julie, you are too late. I am already an activist. Come January 22nd, you know I’m going to be out there marching. Freeze my big, black ass off. If you see some colored girl waving at the camera on the evening news, it just might be me.
Now I have to calm down, log off, and bake some freaking gingerbread cookies. So peace out but keep it real. No more PC schtuff, y’all. Do what you say and say what you mean and don’t treat me like I’m an idiot.
P.—I’ve been married 11 years, non-monogamous for the past 8 of those. I can assure you it does indeed work for some people.
Call me in another 20 and tell me how that is working out for you, junior.
Backdoor Cuckoldry? lol. Sounds like it involves anal sex, as if it doesn’t really count or something.
This blog is really going downhill. It started out with thoughtful articles on a broad range of topics and now it’s so much ranting about sensational tabloid level “issues”.
It’s like the real issues have been exhausted and now it’s come down to this. C’est dommage.
tc – It’s about the ratings, and I support this approach. I don’t care if we have to use dancing hamsters to reach out to people, the MRA message has to get out. I am all for it.
t c:
“Backdoor Cuckoldry? lol. Sounds like it involves anal sex, as if it doesn’t really count or something.”
good job putting that together. being cuckolded probably feels like getting screwed in the ass.
“This blog is really going downhill. ”
then start your own.
I come here everyday T.C., and everyday I’m entertained. We can’t always rehash the most important stuff. You’ve got to have fluff in life, unless you only want one new article a week. I’m sure all your time is spent trying to cure aids and invent better renewable energy systems. Never a second do you daydream about chocolate or vanilla? You never let your mind wonder about trivial things? Under common stones is often found uniques bugs. Stop being such a self rightous bore. The Spearhead could have an article about which is better, missionary or doggy style, and still many comments would be interesting and insightful. We’ve got great minds here.
Although I respect nihilism and pessimissim, I personally think neither has a place in the men’s movement. What we are about is too important. Great men are doers, not doubters.
epoxy:
my sample size is the coworker, women in the article i cited, and my perception of my exes intentions. either way, i accept your point that this is a small sample size; i overgeneralize when i say that *all* swinging is backdoor cuckoldry.
my point should have been kept to that group of women who *do* instigate the lifestyle. and that number may be higher than the low figure you cited: this poll indicates 46% female initiation.
Black&German:
Excellent! Yet I don’t need to see you on TV. I can already imagine.
So, umm, what happens on 22nd January?
Life march in DC.
Black & German: “As it is, you are reaping the societal benefits of marriage while breaking your covenant. Anyone who cheats on his wife, even with her consent, is an adulterer.”
Amen, sister. (heathens can s/Amen/Bravo/g)
“Great men are doers, not doubters.”
Doubters start, doers finish. There’s room for greatness in both.
Really.
I can see how a man would enjoy continuing to provide resources for the woman he ‘married’ while she went off and banged bad boys.
After all, he can also TRY to get laid! While she SUCCEEDS in getting laid! Go “open” marriage!
Jabherwochie wrote: “The Spearhead could have an article about which is better, missionary or doggy style, and still many comments would be interesting and insightful.”
Great idea! *starts writing*
Yeah, March for Life. Gotta speak up for the weak, and all that. Our church is going down with a bus. Don’t know if I’m taking the kids or not as it’s going to be freezing cold.
Navel-gazing is okay and discussion is important, but sometimes we need to speak up in public.
which is better, missionary or doggy style
We should do a poll. Eh… an anonymous one otherwise it’s TMI.
But will those be the only choices? What about spooning, or woman-on-top, or…?
Since marriage is just seen as an economic benefit, why it shouldn’t be written so all the women can get it, huh? No wait, is for women get a sucker to pay for her stuff while she fucks a bad guy.
Christian marriage was seen as something more important than an economic problem-solver for the wife. Now, is just that, a way for women and the Goverment to seize the resources of a man. Fuck that.
The point of Chuck is that in most swinging, both women want to sleep with one guy. The other is just there as an ornament. And not a wanted one. And is easy to know when is the women that gives the idea (also serves as an slut detector). In all that I agree.
About meaningful issues, since this is a cooperating effort between several authors, each one of us has a different idea of what is meaningful. And it’s fine. It’s what makes this site interesting.
Don’t confuse secular legal marriage with Christian marriage. They are separate and different things, they just happen to be completed simultaneously in this country. In other countries they are completed separately.
I don’t know that much about other churches, but in the Catholic Church, there is no divorce and remarriage is only allowed after death. That is because in the Catholic Church marriage is a sacrament and a covenant between the two people. It is permanent and insoluble and only the death of one of the persons can change it. The Church considers civil divorce to be a legal separation, but not a divorce.
In practice annulments are often granted to persons who have been abandoned or ended up married to someone habitually adulterous or frigid. But it’s controversial and much harder to get than a civil divorce.
What I meant with that long-winded comment was that Christian marriage (at least in my church) is still a pretty good deal. The legal marriage problems are unrelated, but they contribute to the general bad climate and therefore weaken the Christian marriages, too.
Chuck,
You are right about this. A guy is playing with fire if he allows his wife to talk him into swinging. He simply has too much to lose financially, especially with children. I thought the whole point in marriage was that the two parties were willing to forsake all others anyway, and commit to their own family. Marriage is about both commitment and sacrafice. Both parties are part of the deal. Any couples the duo makes friend with swinging will likely see one of the unmarried pairs become too attatched, leading to the stereotypical problems of emotional (and then physical) infidelity. Its a faustian bargain that men would wisely decline within the bounds of marriage.
We used to have a different name for swinging………it was called “being single”.
Timely post for me. I’m married, with kids, and recently a close female friend of my wife’s told her husband (they too are married with 2 young kids) that she wanted to initiate a sexual relationship with a much younger woman. After thinking about it, he ‘gave her permission’ to do so.
My wife is full of ‘you go girl’ attitude and has commented on how ‘cool’ her husband is for letting her go for it. I expressed doubts to my wife about how I thought this would go for them, and also wondered out loud if she would be ‘cool’ enough to let me sleep with others half my age. It led to an argument, unskilfully handled by me.
I’ve been trying to understand the implications and ramifications of such a move within a marriage and contemplating the likely outcome for this couple so was curious to read this post and comments.
bongoman:
“I’ve been trying to understand the implications and ramifications of such a move within a marriage and contemplating the likely outcome for this couple so was curious to read this post and comments.”
glad you could identify with it.
epoxy did give good advice on how to handle such a situation. but for me, i’d just rather not deal with the drama that would likely ensue from bringing in a third or a fourth person.
one thing that bothers me is that some women have become so full of the “go girl” attitude you speak of that any man who isn’t down (if the wife is the one instigating it) becomes a prude or boring.
Indeed. In many ways, I feel there is still so much ‘erotic’ potential for my wife and I to explore within our relationship that adding outsiders would severely diminish the possibilty that we actually dive deeper as a couple.
Not sure how this will go over, but my opinion is that chances are better than even that any woman who asks to introduce someone else into the relationship has already done so.
Time to start doing a bit of data mining, I think.
I’m with you Welmer but thankfully this is my wife’s friend and her husband. Not my wife. She is not expressing any interest in opening our relationship.
Ah, well, warn your friend in that case. He probably won’t listen, but might as well give him a heads up anyway.
Hey, I would gladly fuck your girlfriend and another woman at the same time if you are not up for it. Just send her my way and I will take care of all her sexual needs and desires.
Why not have the threesome when she offered, especially since you knew her very asking meant the eventual end of your loving boyfriend/girlfriend bliss?
dear sir,
I feel really sorry for you. Life is so short and ends up in death so fast, we have to have some fun on the way to the grave. Swinging if done right is wonderful. Have respect for your wife, have respect for others. The jealousy, maybe I’m the few who overcame it, but there are such a level of trust between husband and wife when you kiss your wife while you’re fucking someone else or your gf choosing a prostitute for the evening for the three of us. Be a man and you will rule your women. Be a politician in your life and rule somebody else’s women too.
I am male and have experience in this as a couple and as a single male.
The alpha/beta dynamic and the cuckhold tendency is alive and well, and the whole idea of the movie “eyes wide shut” is true, and was revealed to me by dealing with swinging singles and couples.
It is common to see women at swinger parties walking around with t-shirts that say “I have the pussy so I make the rules”. This is indeed the prevailing attitude. Many swinger husbands are not getting the pussy , but their wife is getting other pussy and also dick.
However, just like in the general population, there are couples that are alpha male/submissive female. In those couples, if the woman is genuinely bi, swinging can and does really work.
Wow, great post. And a new blog to add to my list.
Anyhow, let me also suggest one thing if no one else has:
Swinging can also be a backdoor strategy if a person is thinking about leaving his or her spouse, and wants to “sample” others before taking off.
In effect, there is no guilt or sneakiness, or even violent confrontation from a jealous partner…at least most of the time.
I’m convinced that’s what happened here. I know this hot MILF and her geeky husband were swinging with another couple. She ended up leaving her husband for a chubby, obnoxious loser who was wealthy. And the MILF’s geeky husband and the other wife, who was chubby and gross herself, never developed anything.
I think that it was her strategy to use swinging to find someone better than her husband (and this guy had money too…he bankrolled a new daycare center for her). She could sample from many men, and have something lined up and ready to go when she took off. And because they had kids, it was a much less risky strategy than outright adultery.
The rumor about them was that they would post ads online to attract others. And now the hot MILF and the bloated, obnoxious new guy were seen relaxing in a hot tub with another couple.
Could this be her way of safely “moving up,” especially now that she has a new daycare financed by that guy?
I don’t know, but she’s way too hot to be with any of those guys.