The Sexual Peak Myth

by Chuck Ross on November 16, 2009

A common myth is that men hit their sexual peak at the age of 18 while women hit theirs at 30-35. Despite literally no scientific support for this theory, this meme has become “common knowledge” in our society.

The myth never sat well with me. And to be clear, this myth is no straw-man concocted by this writer. It has entrenched itself in our culture to the point that most believe it is true without considering the implications or reasons for such an illogical development.

“Well we all know…” is a precursor heard before recitation of the myth. I worked with three 30-something women as a bank teller. Their excuse for their child-like antics, raunchy sex-talk, and monthly vibrator parties was that they were at their sexual peak. They said it as if they had a moral obligation to live up to their billing as sex-crazed mynx. While I’m not proud of it, when I was 20 or 21 I had a year-long sexual relationship with a 30 year-old woman whose fiance couldn’t keep up with her horniness. She justified her behavior by saying she was at her sexual peak and had a right to satiate her hunger. I got into an argument the other day with a female Bulgarian friend of mine who off-handedly recited this meme. The myth has infiltrated the Eastern bloc. I’ve had many encounters with the myth; I’m sure most readers have too.

I’ve never understood why our creator – natural selection – would put men and women at their sexual peaks at such different points in their lives. More importantly, why would women be at their peaks and more horny when they were less fertile? Every thing we know about evolution and sexual behavior indicates that natural selection has made it easy peasy for our genes to be passed on through sexual reproduction – why throw a wrench in the system by making horniness levels – or “desire to copulate” levels – incongruent between the sexes and less conducive to reproduction? Since women are most fertile from the ages of 20-24, it would make sense that they would desire sex more than when they were a decade older and half as fertile.

Those purveyors of the myth don’t account for Dr. David Schnarch’s dichotomy between genital prime and sexual prime. As spouted by the masses, the myth advocates the notion that these women want sex more rather than the more plausible argument that they are more experienced and comfortable with sex. If the myth is fully perpetuated, it grants 30-something women sexual liberation while offering nothing to men of the same age.

From Dr. Schnarch’s book Passionate marriage:

“Most textbooks on human sexuality, adolescent development, and family life teach that men reach their sexual prime before they even hit their twenties. Women supposedly reach their prime several years later…and therein lies our problem. Health-care providers make the same mistake as the rest of us: We’ve confused genital prime with sexual prime.

Genital prime occurs when a person has fully developed sexual organs and are most fertile. This occurs during adolescence and shortly after for both men and women. The myth holds men to the genital prime model while holding women to the other; it doesn’t compare apples to apples. This has the effect of making 30-something female sex some sort of animalistic expression rather than a more mature concept of sex that men of the same age achieve. The widely-accepted meme of late female sexual peak is a false dichotomy.

So why has this meme succeeded in entrenching itself so deeply in our collective mythology? First, it prevents us from being able to call 30-something sexually-peaking women sluts. Saying that a 30-something woman is at her peak is a PC way of saying she’s a slut. But given that “slut” implies something bad (and we know that a woman doing what she wants with her body can never be bad) those myth-sustainers prefer to say she is peaking. A peak implies something grandiose and wonderful. Peaks are achievements of milestones deserving rewards and ticker-tape parades. When the sexual prime myth is used to encourage and support these womens’ shady sexual behavior, it violates Schnarch’s dichotomy. Myth-purveyors seek to use the genital peak behavior of men at the age of 18 to condone womens’ slutiness at later ages by citing the need for equality of opportunity to express sexuality.

Second, older women HATE HATE HATE younger women. Sex is power. Younger women have held it in spades over their elders. Being that everyone desires to wrench power out of the hands of people who hold it, older women and those soon to be of that demographic have an incentive to glamorize the twilight years.

Says sex and relationship expert Pepper Schwartz:

“The bottom line for me: The evolution of the cougar concept is good for every woman and her partner. It keeps sexual possibilities and eroticism alive. And that continued capacity for passion creates lifelong desirability to younger men, older men, or anyone who can recognize a vital spirit when meeting one.”

The myth has sustained because it gives women hope as they venture into the twilight of their ability to be incubators of seed and the commensurate degradation of their looks. Sex is power, and attaching that power to women of ever-increasing ages allows women to hang on to it longer. Older women have declared war on younger women. Through wishful thinking they seek to destroy every benefit and short cut that younger, prettier women have even though they benefited from the same attitudes at an earlier point in their lives. We see this by observing the attitudes towards female celebrities who act in sexual ways. When Madonna was younger, she was considered a slut. Her book Sex was considered raunchy and disgusting. Now that she’s old and in her “sexual prime” she is given a free pass to perform in sexually-suggestive ways. Her behavior today, while not as risque as that when she was younger, is lauded as empowering and even artistic.

Young starlets are hazed by a certain segment of the population for capitalizing on their sexiness, but that same segment glorifies Demi Moore, Susan Sarandon, Madonna, Cher, Jennifer Aniston, and Halle Berry for rocking it at older ages.

We can easily see that the sexual peak meme is widely touted for the empowerment it gives to older women. Rather than being a quirky feature of our sexuality, the myth that 35 year-old women are on the same level as 18 year-old boys attempts to allow women to hold more leverage over men. As feminism achieves its goal of female economic empowerment, we begin to observe “peak inflation”. The peak shifts upward as women delay marriage and children and seek to have fun of the sexual variety at increasing ages. Cougars are a case in point. These women are over 40. Even though the myth hasn’t explicitly increased the age range of women at their peak, the cougar phenomenon idolizes women’s sexual power at these late ages and glorifies their sexuality as empowering.

You see, the sexuality-as-power lobby wants to shift the reins of control from men to women and from younger women to older ones. Younger women are fulfilling their biological imperative thereby submitting themselves to men or to a scheme that plays into men’s strategies. Older women expressing their sexuality is a way for them to hold sway over the purse strings to power. They are having sex on their own terms rather than due to some ingrained chore or obligation. The sex peak myth is a catalyst for creating sexual autonomy.

In terms of species propagation, men and women are most horny whenever they are most fertile; their genital peak occurs at a young age. Both men and women reach their “sexual peak” – their mental maturity – at later ages. The key here is that each maturity occurs at similar ages for both sexes; the myth loses its power when we realize this. The first maturity is biological while the second is social. The myth of the late female peak says that women are hornier in their thirties by trying to equate the 30 year old’s behaviors and urges to that of an 18 year old man. This is simply a perversion of Dr. Schnarch’s dichotomy. Both sexes have had many years of sexual experience and they have had more time to rid themselves of debilitating sexual hang-ups and phobias. They aren’t hornier at later ages, they’re just more relaxed with the ideas of sexuality and have thus reached “sexual prime”. The late sexual prime myth is a convenient tool that excuses perverse sexual behavior in older women. Sex is power, and it is used as a weapon to pry control from those that have traditionally held it; men and young, beautiful women. By ratcheting up the expectations of older females’ sexual inhibition, they wrangle pawns to line their battlefield.

{ 205 comments… read them below or add one }

Advocatus Diaboli November 16, 2009 at 03:10

A man who agrees with this myth has to be either stupid or really hard up.

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Novaseeker November 16, 2009 at 03:58

I also think that a large part of the cougar phenomenon (which is advocated almost entirely by women who themselves are 40+) is revenge. Revenge *against* men for finding younger women attractive. A large part of the idea is “turning the tables” on men of their own age, and “landing” younger men as sex partners to prove that “they still have it” — that is, that they can still pull young men.

The problems with this are (1) young men are not hard to “pull” and will enter into a sexual relationship with an older woman if sex is regularly on the table — provided the woman is willing and decent looking, “pulling” young men for sex isn’t hard and proves nothing about desirability, really and (2) in going after young men, women are trying to substitute male mate selection patterns for their own — that is, they are “aping” male selection patterns, which are based on fertility and hence favor the young, instead of their own selection patterns, which are generally not. That’s the only explanation for the phenomenon of 40+ women suddenly hopping into bed with guys in their early 20s to whom they would not give the time of day when *they* were in their early 20s themselves. In a way, it’s a part of a larger program of these women to not give the time of day to their same-age contemporaries — they didn’t when they were in their early 20s, mostly preferring older men, and they aren’t now in their 40s, preferring instead younger men — and in both cases ignoring the men of their own age. As I say, in some/many of these women the meme or revenge, based on a true dislike for men of their own age cohort and perhaps the older men whom they dated and married, is strong — it comes out very strongly in Michelle Langley’s book, which is basically cougar advocacy in many ways when you read it between the lines –> the meme is that older men have it coming to them, and it’s time for older women to abandon them for younger men.

Again, the funny part about this is that *most* women, of course, are not cougars. Most women in their 40+ range are most comfortable with men of their own cohort or perhaps a bit older. But you do get the odd ducks here and there, and especially, in my experience, the women who used to be “hotties” when they were younger becoming cougars when they get older, because for these women the ability to “pull” male attention is a core part of their self-esteem. Being a cougar helps them sustain their own illusion that they “still have it” (and some of them are quite attractive in their own right, really), when the reality is that “pulling” young men for easy sexual access is not hard, and is not really an achievement of any sort.

And that’s really the rub. One thing that most women hate — whether feminist or otherwise — is the reality that while achieving sexual access for men *is* an achievement (something he needs to work for), achieving sexual access for women is generally *not*. That is the basis for the sexual double standard being sustained in our age of free-wheeling sex, really. And it burns women because they realize that they will never be praised for being able to pull men for sex the way men are admired — by men and women alike — for this ability (even though women may not like men who use that ability to become a player). That’s a true double standard, and it’s based on the underlying sexual dynamics between men and women with women being the gatekeepers of sex. If women gave sex away to a wide variety of men as freely as many men are willing to have it with a wide variety of women, there would be no double standard to worry about, really. But instead, there is a double standard because even promiscuous women are selective, to a significant degree, about whom they sleep with — unlike male players, who generally are much less selective. The double standard exists because men and women fundamentally approach sexual activity differently, and the cougar phenomenon, as much as it is anything else, is an attempt to rebel against the double standard.

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kinseyHater November 16, 2009 at 04:24

The myth was started by Kinsey, who was a propagandist. Kinsey published fraud and fabrication, but it got heralded as science.

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Christian November 16, 2009 at 06:05

Testosteron is what makes people (men and women) horny. It is at its peak with 18 year old men and 30 year old women.

It is biology from the stoneage. 18 year olds can be risky because they are strong and young. So they have a high testosteronlevel. Older Men (stoneage old) with 30 may have had injuries, they may be not so fit anymore or they may have a position of power allready. So they can be more settled down (less testosteron).

Women, being pregant, have more to risk, so in their best years they should be more picky (=search for best genetic material), because they have many years ahead. when they get older (30 years=stoneage) they have just few years ahead in which they can get pregnant. So being too picky could mean they miss the window. So nature makes them hornier by adjusting the testosteronlevel so they want to have more sex and are easier to seduce.

Naturs Intent in short:

Men at 18: You are young and strong, get the women you want, fuck as much as you can. you can die any moment, get your genes into reproduction
Men at 30: be carefull, other man are younger and stronger. Don´t just fuck anything at any risk, choose your targets a little bit more carefull.

Women at 18: you are young, getting a child is a lot of work, choose wisely, don´t let a man fuck you just because you are horny.
Woman at 30: you have 5 more years. your looks are fading. Be horny and get pregnant, it may be your last chance.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 06:22

Ok, the first and third links don’t work. The argument is poorly thought out and seems to consist of a denigration of sexual desire by women over 30- hell, by any woman over 25. The period of peak fertility for females -which I have usually seen being listed as roughly from 15 to 27 or from 16 to 26 is for some some reason shortened to a 4 year?!! period in the early 20′s. The author’s desire for men and women’s sexual parity is confused with an argument for evolution and how it would act – whereas, anyone who knows anything about evolution knows that as scientists consider it to not rely on any type of intelligence in its workings that evolution produces lots of compromises and “just good enough” biological features and functions. And anyway, what would be an evolutionary disadvantage to having female desire increase for a ten to fifteen year period at the end of her reproductive cycle? At 25 to 34 if she’s in decent shape she still has abetter than even chance to produce a baby, esp with a younger partner and thus it makes sense for the female bio clock to make them more slutty around the time when it’s set to go off forever. Sort of a warning – “Hey! Be a single mom or in a harem, but reproduce! ”

Here’s a link concerning female fertility:
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/F/20022307.html

While I’ve enjoyed many of Mr. Rosse’s comments in previous comment threads, I can’t agree that he has came anywhere close to proving his case.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 06:31

Nova:

Purely revenge? ONLY revenge?

You see, I can understand a woman, if she has kept herself in shape and still has any looks at all wanting a last fling at excitement and sexual power, even if, realistically, she can’t get commitment (except for a dedicated childless man) or have a baby at that point. If some young guy from this generation has it just a lil easier thanks to this Ms Robinson than I did when I was his age, I can’t really hate on her for it. Mind you, I’m talking women from age 40 up who realistically shouldn’t count on having kids.

So yeah, while I’m sure there are some “revenge” cougars out there with the whole boatload of toxic feminism and their irrational resentment at me for their stupidity in following their “gina tingle” during all their best years, I’ll just ignore their mostly wrinkling old asses. I wouldn’t want them anyway and I’ll stick to my now preferred demographic of 25 to 35, being that I’m too old to realistically snag a 20 year old.

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Novaseeker November 16, 2009 at 06:39

No, not only revenge, as I said, but I think, in addition to what Chuck wrote, that revenge is also a large part of the equation for a good number of women who are cougars.

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Paul November 16, 2009 at 07:18

The article was coherent and well argued. That myths will build up so as to empower women should be no surprise to any reader here. I think I have observed this phenomena in other situations. There was a time when feminist absolutely denigrated the older woman, as a way of displacing her. Now that they themselves are old there is quite a different narrative being peddled. The point is it is just the same people trying always to keep themselves on top. So we get these myths about the middle aged woman being somehow at her peak. May be she has just learnt not to be so choosy.

I liked your article very much Chuck and it was thought provoking.

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Kimski November 16, 2009 at 07:31

Paul

I concur, 40-year old saggy-assed will always be 40 year old saggy-assed, no matter what you call it. Can´t wait to see what they´re going to call themselves when they get to 55-60.

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Red November 16, 2009 at 07:44

I’ve read that in hunter gather tribes that older women 30+ will marry a younger man 14+ for a few years before they die. It seems to work out well: The man needs someone to cook for him (a big deal when it takes 6-8+ hours a day to prep and cook things) so he can spend his time hunting instead of cooking. The women dies after a few years and the man marries a younger girl and starts having children.

So from that perspective having women crave sex more at 30 works for the betterment of the tribe.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 07:46

Just liking the conclusion of an article does not make it well argued.

Does anyone have any studies showing women’s libido is highest before age 30? If not, I suggest all you are doing is self confirmation of your own hopes.

If anyone must know, I think women’s libido does indeed peak in their thirties and perhaps early 40′s , mostly due to their biological clocks. Women’s libido is practically non-existent after menopause though I’ve seen some conflicting things on the web suggesting that testosterone might revive it a bit.

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G November 16, 2009 at 08:09

“Does anyone have any studies showing women’s libido is highest before age 30? If not, I suggest all you are doing is self confirmation of your own hopes.”

It’s not about their libido, we are talking about fertility wich is the true evolutionnal aspect to consider.
Anyways from a physical point-of-view, women simply “get fucked”. During thousands of years they had not much to say about mating, just wait for it and lay back. Wake up clarence, we are still mammals.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 08:18

No, we are not talking fertility, G. Use your brain. We are talking libido and, according to some posters here the unmitigated gall of women over 24, (heck, some all the way over 30, why aren’t they dead yet?!) to dare and have sexual interest.

People are beyotching in this whole thread at the amazing idea that women over thirty might have sex drives..might even want sex more than when they were younger for a five or ten year period. I posit the conventional (not the only but the most usual) evolutionary explanation of this which is that the bio clock goes into overdrive as female fertility starts to decline as a sort of “use it or lose” it signal. It’s a phenomenon known as “baby rabies”. No one really argues with my “conventional wisdom”, they just dismiss it as the the delusions of all those hated cougars, totally media created, without one shred of evidence whatsoever to the contray being presented. I suppose admiting that women over 25 and esp over 30 aren’t just imagining they want sex more somehow means we’ll have too much sympathy for the 40 plus feminist cougar with a fat ass or something.

I consider this post and this thread massive fail.

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zed November 16, 2009 at 08:39

Nature’s Intent in short:

Men at 18: You are young and strong, get the women you want, fuck as much as you can. you can die any moment, get your genes into reproduction
Men at 30: be careful, other man are younger and stronger. Don´t just fuck anything at any risk, choose your targets a little bit more careful.

Women at 18: you are young, getting a child is a lot of work, choose wisely, don´t let a man fuck you just because you are horny.
Woman at 30: you have 5 more years. your looks are fading. Be horny and get pregnant, it may be your last chance.

Great summary. There are only 2 things I would add. First, fertility for both sexes is highest in the late teens and early 20s. An average 18-23 y/o woman gets pregnant so easily and has so many males sniffing around her that she really doesn’t need a sex drive at all to end up pregnant. The less of one she has, the more selective she will be and there is the perfect selection mechanism at work in that only the very best male specimens will trigger her lust.

Fertility starts to decline for both sexes in the late 20s. Many couples in their 30s require reproductive assistance in order to get pregnant. The probability of becoming pregnant from any single act of sex goes way down, so the frequency of sex must go up proportionally in order to compensate – particularly if a woman is staying fairly close to her own age range in her choice of potential partners, which is likely if she wants to snag a man with resources who will help her raise the child. Pre-menopausal or perio-menopausal women are sometimes just insatiable because their biological clocks are going off like Big Ben screaming “YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME!!!!!!!!!!”

The second thing I would add is related to the point about men at 18 above – recent research has shown that full maturity of the brain is not reached until at least mid-20s. Folk wisdom has always known this, which is reflected by the fact that the minimum age to be elected to the US House of Representatives is 25, and the minimum voting and drinking ages used to be 21.

If an 18 y/o boy impregnates a woman and dies immediately, he has still gotten his genes to the future and is still playing in the genetic lottery. Ten years later, however, he has entered an entirely different social station and has social obligations that the 18 y/o doesn’t. He is more aware that if he impregnates a woman that he will be on the hook to support the child, and is also FAR more likely to already have one or more children to support with whatever resources he has managed to accumulate – thus social considerations assume an ever increasing role in his decision whether or not to take advantage of any particular female display of receptivity.

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Gx1080 November 16, 2009 at 08:50

Women’s libido isn’t higher, women desperation for having children is. There is a misunderstanding there. Besides, having the legs wide open isn’t difficult.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 09:01

Hormonal levels tend to be different for both men and women in their thirties and 40′s as compared to their teens and twenties. Pretending this has no effect either on fertility OR libido is putting your head in the sand. Good job, Gx1080.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 09:02

I should have said AND libido.

grumbles about not proofreading.

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Thursday November 16, 2009 at 09:14

Meston and Buss review the literature in their recent book Why Women Have Sex and conclude that women do indeed peak out sexually in their early 30s.

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Thursday November 16, 2009 at 09:16
jz November 16, 2009 at 09:19

Chuck,
We see how you dismiss the purported libido of single 30+ women who desire sex.
Please elaborate on how you dismiss the libido of married monogamous 30+ women who purportedly desire sex with their husbands.

Clarence,
You asserted that women’s libido beyond menopause is “practically nonexistent.” The survey publication from U Chicago revealed otherwise: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/357/8/762

Among women (ages 57-85) NOT having sex in previous 12 months, the stated reasons in descending order:
–partner’s physical health problems
–woman’s own lack of desire
–partner not interested
–woman’s own physical health problems

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 09:24

jz:

I might have unintentionally exaggerated. It’s enough for me to say that female libido is at its nadir after menopause and leave it at that. After all your own post kind of proves my point: lack of interest is the second most common reason for women in that age group not having sex in the previous twelve months. I doubt that would be the case for 15 to 40 year olds. Plus there’s all sorts of things marketed to try and increase women’s libido, most marketed at 50 plus women.

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Ferdinand Bardamu November 16, 2009 at 09:28

I worked with three 30-something women as a bank teller. Their excuse for their child-like antics, raunchy sex-talk, and monthly vibrator parties was that they were at their sexual peak. They said it as if they had a moral obligation to live up to their billing as sex-crazed mynx.

And people thought I was kidding when I said that women in America become more boorish and immature when they get older.

This is a great time to bring out this classic post in which Agnostic debunks the myth of horny thirtysomethings with hard data:

http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2008/04/older-women-are-not-hornier-do-you.html

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jz November 16, 2009 at 09:40

@Ferdinand,
Agnostic’s remix references a Pay-per-view publication. Since you are familiar with it, please share with us the specs: study population, study method, interventional or observational? stats methodology, etc.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 09:41

Ferdinand:

The person you linked to checks out studies that talk about women aged 40 plus which none of us are denying are middle aged, (the vast majority) infertile, and who’s sex drive has started to plummet.

Then this “Agnostic” person starts hating on 30 year olds. As do you.
I hope you are smart enough to see where your arguments fall down.

The claim I’m making is that women between say 30 and 35 experience baby rabies and enhanced sexual interest as a function of their biological clocks is not refuted by any of the studies mentioned.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 09:45

And as far as it goes Ferdinand a woman age 30 to 35 still has far more sexual market place value than she will when she is 40. I know it’s in your selfish interest to really hate on anyone over 29, but pretending that your typical thirty or forty year old man would pick a 29 year old over a 30 year old to the same extent he’d pick a 30 year old to a 40 year old woman is just stupid.

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Thus Spake Woman November 16, 2009 at 10:17

It may not make evolutionary sense, but it happens. My peaks were adolesence and 30-35.

Some women experience a menopausal as well as post-menopausal peak. Reasons for that may be psychological (can’t get preggers, feel more free).

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Jabherwochie November 16, 2009 at 10:30

I haven’t read all the post yet, as work is hell today, but it is not a myth. It is evolutionary biology. Men at 18 need to start mass producing as best and as fast as they can. They may die soon hunting or in war or what not. The sooner they start the better their chances. Also, to secure a female takes a lot of work, and youthful energy and abandon will help out. Women are not horny at 18 because they don’t need to be. They are the chooser, and to choose wisely, it helps to have a clear head. They peak at 30 for one reason and one reason only. Its nature’s way of making sure they pop out that last kid or two before menopause starts. It doesn’t matter if they have 7 kids already by being lucky enough to not have died in child birth, or zero, nature wants to make sure they get it done at that point before its too late. Like wise, a 50 year old man doesn’t need to be horny either, because by that point he has established himself and has so much status that girls will be throwing themselves at him. Of course this all evolved when life was short and brutal, but it is still the way many of us are programed. Exceptions obviously abound, but we are talking averages. The points in the article still hold plenty of truth though, as they can exaserbate the situation, but this is no myth. Evolutionary biology and psychology explains it.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 10:30

Totally agree, Christian and Zed:

If it’s harder to get pregnant, you have to have more sex in order to become so. If it’s the last point a woman can realistically become pregnant, and she’s less fertile, horniness helps make babies.

Back in the cave, men died young. Hitting their peak early ensured they passed on genes before being gored by mastadons.

And yes, testosterone levels have everything to do with sex drive. Once a woman starts having to wax her upper lip (often in her 30s), her drive goes up. They’ve actually tried giving testosterone supplements to women with low sex drive and found that not only did their libido go up, but they had a better self/body image–they looked the same, but felt less hung up about their flaws. I certainly find that to be true now that I’m in my late 30s–I don’t sleep around (two discreet one night stands in 15 months is not sleeping around!), but I am hornier than ever. And the 96 linear feet of stretch marks (11 lb babies do that) that would have once mortified me don’t bug me at all anymore. I feel more attractive now than when I was in my twenties, even though I consciously know I’m not.

And yeah, I’ve hit that stage later than most women–mid to late 30s rather than 30-35. But in my family, late menopause is the norm. My mom was still getting her period in her early 60s, and both my sisters got preggers by accident (while using birth control–one of them was doubling up methods!) at age 40.

That said, I’m still most attracted to men in the 35-40ish range. That was true when I was 20, and it’s still true now. I’ve had younger men express interest, but honestly, if you’re only 7 years older than my son, what the hell would we talk about in between the sex? No cougar, me.

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Globalman November 16, 2009 at 10:32

Thursday November 16, 2009 at 9:14 am
“Meston and Buss review the literature in their recent book Why Women Have Sex and conclude that women do indeed peak out sexually in their early 30s.”

They obviously did not include my ex, and many other mens exes in their study. Womens sexuality peaks prior to children. Once they have children most men have an affair with their right hand….or left if they are left handed. Women ‘peaking’ sexually is crap.

Women are perfectly able to have sex 5-10 times a day. They are called prostitutes and they have no problems doing this. If perfectly normal women can have sex 5-10 times a day what’s the problem with our wives?…Oh..they haven’t reached their ‘sexual peak yet’.

The easiest way to see if something is Illuminati propaganda is to see if it is widely dispersed in the mainstream media. Women and their ‘sexual peak’ is strewn throughout the mainstream media. So you can be sure it’s a lie intended to break down marriages and relationships. After all, a lot of these women who are ‘trying to take advantage of their sexual peak’ are married and cheating on their husbands.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 10:40

First,

here are the two links:

20-24 year olds most fertile while 35 year olds half so.
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/preconception/activelytrying/ageandfertility/

Pepper Schwarz:

http://www.aarp.org/family/love/the_naked_truth/articles/cougar_state_of_mind.2.html

Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 10:49

jz:

“Please elaborate on how you dismiss the libido of married monogamous 30+ women who purportedly desire sex with their husbands. ”

The thing is, monogamous women in relationships have sagging libidos compared to their husbands. I posted on that here:

http://chuckross.blogspot.com/2009/11/various-voices-in-blogosphere-think.html

Women seek to exploit superior genes. When a man has committed, showing he is a good “Dad” the woman will seek the most fit genes by making it with a “Cad”. Randall Parker links to a German study that shows that women’s sexual desire falls off while men’s remains constant throughout marriage.

Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 11:12

Sorry, the link embedding function doesn’t seem to be here anymore.

From a WebMD article:

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/loss-of-sexual-desire-in-women?page=2

“Low testosterone. Testosterone affects sexual drive in both men and women. Testosterone levels peak in women’s mid-20s and then steadily decline until menopause, when they drop dramatically.”

Another article at Life Extension:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/apr2004_report_test_01.htm

“While it is well known that a surge in testosterone production in the testes of boys brings about the changes that lead to manhood, it is not well known that women also produce testosterone (albeit at about one-tenth the level as men) in their ovaries and adrenal glands. As in men, levels of testosterone peak in women in their twenties and decline thereafter.

Mine was an a priori hypothesis that women don’t have “natural” higher sex drives when they are older and less fertile. It is merely a social thing in which women feel a greater ability to express their sexuality and act on it.

If you even run a simple google search you’ll see the mid-twenties as the common statistic cited for female testosterone production. This fits my a priori argument since testosterone is associated with sex drive. It peaks when females biological imperative to have sex peaks.

I also don’t think some picked up on Dr. Schnarch’s delineation between “genital prime” and “sexual prime”. The thrust behind the peak myth is that 30+ women have higher libidos than men of the same age; this gives credence to a horny 30 something female. It lends justification for it since they are merely behaving as 18 year old boys did. It is a misapplication of the dichotomy; the myth compares apples to oranges.

anoukange November 16, 2009 at 11:27

Men between the ages of 35-45 are very sexy. If the have kept themselves in shape and remain somewhat young at heart, they are at their sexy peak for sure. Throughout my many, many chats with women, sex is better in the late twenties through the mid thirites. Their bodies have shifted in a way that allows them a more heightened climax. Orgasms are better and longer. The baby issue is definitely playing into it but I believe that plays a smaller role than one might think. The mind is more engaged at the 28-38 age range and seems to lead to better and more satisfying sex. Every single one of you who think that under 48 for a man or a woman is old you are ridiculous (and most likely born in the eighties). There are many annoying, time-consuming traits that youth has. And as one gets older they realize that dealing with youthfulness is not all it is cracked up to be. The lethal weapon in society today? Men and women who have stayed in amazing shape and who have the years of expereince behind them. Wisdom and grace equals sexy. I would have this opinion if I were 19 or if I were 42. If you seek the above average then be above average. If you don’t want to ever “peak” then stay in a healthy mind-frame and take care of yourself. “Peaking” is a load of bull just like most of the other bull that’s out there. But stronger orgasms are not, too many women can attest to this and they seem to occur in our late twenties and into the following ten years or so. God has a wicked, wicked sense of humor.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 11:33

Chuck Ross:

The idea behind the libido peak is that while testosterone has gone down this has resulted in other hormone levels going up, so that relatively speaking women feel more horny at 30 then they do at 20. I don’t know why this is controversial to you, Thursday linked to a book that has several studies that seem to say this exact thing, farthermore, while I know of no transcultural studies on the phenomena that would put the lie to your “media driven myth” hypothesis, I tend to doubt that “baby rabies ” for older childless women is merely a western or US invention.

A woman’s hormonal balance changes at several points during her life, menopause being just one of them, and testosterone is not the only chemical that affects women’s moods.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 11:44

Dr. Sandor Gardos discusses the sexual peak myth here saying that men and women have similar hormonal profiles at the same ages, and that the myth likely began from a study purporting that women have more orgasms at later ages (Kinsey study?).

http://www.thirdage.com/sex/qa-when-do-i-hit-my-sexual-peak

Also, to see how the myth has so entrenched itself in our mythology and has been twisted by feminists to fit their agenda, see here (sorry just a first page snippet):

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4065526

To get an idea of how men have bought into the myth and the stupid conclusions they’ve drawn from it, see here:

http://www.boldopinion.com/sexual.htm

clarence November 16, 2009 at 11:46

I should also point out that there are several other reasons to suspect that evolution would favor such a mechanism as a “baby rabies” phase as fertility drops:

A. In the past many women died in childbirth, including young women. While most young women are better than older women at holding up under the stress of childbirth (younger than 16 tends to be a greater risk though as the woman herself hasn’t developed enough) enabling women to be fertile longer clearly helps the tribe out at a time when population was at a premium. Fewer babies will come from the “older” (say 30) babes, but more will make than if the older than 30′s had no fertility at all.

B. Related is that it pays a younger woman much more to be choosy. She has much more time to work with. Evolution would probably favor this as well.

C. On a thread I ran into somewhere someone speculated that older females having interest in sex helped to keep peace in tribes esp when competition for women was sometimes fierce.

D. Need I mention that a second sudden interest in sex can often help pair bonding and thus help babies/small children to survive? Say a guy marries a girl and she is 23. They get it on like gangbusters the first year or two, but then she has a kid. Her interest in sex drops. Not just sex with him – sex with anyone. He’s getting it maybe once or twice a month at most now instead of once or twice or thrice a day. This goes on for a few years until the marriage is on the rocks, partly because she is now 30 and less attractive (though for the sake of argument lets say she’s a 9 at 23 and still an overall 8 at thirty and after baby so he’s still attracted)but partly because her guy is sexually frustrated. Suddenly, out of the blue, without him learning game or whatever she finds herself wanting sex more. How could this NOT be a good thing?

Lastly, how comes females don’t go for the 80 percent or more of guys when they are younger but instead will often wait around for weeks or months to have sex until they can find a suitably “attractive” partner? If women were truly as horney as men at the peak of their fertility, young woman’s choosiness should have never been a problem.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 11:54

Chuck Ross:

I’ll have to assume you misunderstood the good Dr. Men and women don’t have the same mix of hormones ever. While one could isolate a given hormone, say estrogen or testosterone and compare profiles of men and women, one can’t really do that for the whole mix of them as they don’t even have the exact same functions in men and women.

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Jabherwochie November 16, 2009 at 11:55

Looking online, there does seem to be some contradictory data and opinions. I still think women tend to open up sexually around 30-35, but now I question the biological/psychological mechanism for it. I still think its an evolved trait, and just as womens sexuality is more fluid and complex than males, the mechanisms behind it peaking at 30ish are probably also. Very interesting though, and obviously in need of debate and discussion. I’ll continue to look into it.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 12:09

Clarence:

I don’t come close to thinking that men and women have similar hormone profiles in absolute terms, but they do follow similar patterns in regards to their hormonal peaks and valleys at similar times in life.

Also, did our biological ancestors live past 30? Childbirth was much more rigorous for our ancestors; I’ve read that women died at earlier ages than men. Warfare didn’t become widespread until the agricultural age. Widespread tribal warfare is also a myth.

The window was short for women to conceive. It makes sense that they would start having the drive to conceive at early ages just like men. Although they couldn’t do it too early since their bodies weren’t developed enough to make it through pregnancy, they had to start around the age of 18 (when puberty was over with). The baby rabies thing may hold some water, but that likely has a more social aspect than a biological one.

Men and women both have stronger sexual urges (wet dreams, horniness, etc) when they are around the age of 20. Rather than spouting the myth, the meme should go (if we want to assume that baby rabies has a biological root) “Men hit their peak around the age of 18-20 while women hit their peak around the age of 18-20 and 30-35.” Instead, for women, we leave that first age range off. Why?

clarence November 16, 2009 at 12:21

Chuck Ross:

First, while I am all for females having babies at earlier ages than they currently do in our very biologically twisted feminist culture, I’m not sure women have two peaks. The concept of baby rabies has always been tied into the concept of a biological clock. I suppose could try arguing there isn’t one, but I don’t think the evidence supports that contention.

Second, your age mortality figure is off because you failed to account for the fact that the reason the average age was so low was all those deaths as an infant, and all those deaths giving birth. Fact is if you survived as an infant, and made it to adult hood and then survived a pregnancy or two you had a very good chance of living to fifty or sixty as a woman or man. If we went by “average age” of death you’d think that there’d be few or any old people yet surprisingly old people are all over the historical records. Since most women did not die giving birth, the largest drag on the age of mortaility was the very high degree of deaths in childhood. In the past, if you made it past childhood you would most likely be alright till you got to around 60 or so.

So no, we didn’t magically in the past 1000 years invent technology that doubled normal human life span. What we have done so far (genetic engineering promises to let us do actual AGE tinkering but that’s not the reality yet) is decrease those infant mortality and child birth death rates by many dozens of times and due to increased food and sanitation we’ve added a good ten to twenty years onto the older persons life span on average. Given that we haven’t doubled our lifespan there is no reason to assume that there has been any evolutionary changes to women’s fertilty across their life cycle. Even the ten thousand year book talks about changes in the last ten thousand years, not the last 100!

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 12:23

Oh I should add that the reason teens and early twenties getting married/having babies is so reviled is that in our sick culture when it’s not confusing liking 16-19 year olds with downright pedophilia, the older witches of the feminist revolution know that they are being competed with by women half their age and they HATE that and will suppress any information that gives women the idea there is a limit on their fertility. Besides, a mother or housewife isn’t contributing to taking men’s traditional positions and thus is of no use to the sisterhood.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 12:30

clarence:

“Oh I should add that the reason teens and early twenties getting married/having babies is so reviled is that in our sick culture when it’s not confusing liking 16-19 year olds with downright pedophilia, the older witches of the feminist revolution know that they are being competed with by women half their age and they HATE that and will suppress any information that gives women the idea there is a limit on their fertility. Besides, a mother or housewife isn’t contributing to taking men’s traditional positions and thus is of no use to the sisterhood.”

Dude, that’s the whole point of my article. What are we arguing about?

clarence November 16, 2009 at 12:41

Well Chuck:

I thought we were arguing about whether women getting baby rabies in their thirties had any biological reality at all or was just a media invention to let cougars go wild. I make a big distinction between an 18 year old slut, and a 32 year old former prude who suddenly wants to fuck anything with a penis and two legs. That’s because I think the former prude (“good girl” to those who totally embrace the double standard) is acting as her biology is pushing her and truth be told if she really was a good girl I don’t hold her behaviour against her. Indeed, I hope she succeeds in getting that precious human bundle of goo.

Meanwhile, I’m fully prepared to drop kick the 40 plus menopausal cougar who is acting like a spoiled petulant child and treating every conquest of a drunk or young sexually inexperienced male with an “in your face patriarchy!”

The 18 year old and the 40 year old are both responsible for their slut like behavior, though at least the 18 year old has inexperience and youth as excuses. I tend to give the late twenties to mid 30′s woman with baby rabies the benefit of the doubt.

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Doug1 November 16, 2009 at 13:52

Novaseeker; others–

How many Cougars proper (age >40) are there who aren’t divorcees living in their husband’s house and significantly on his property settlement and/or alimony, and child support =alimony often enough? Though many have jobs in addition, often enough.

How many Cougars are there among the never married career women types?

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Doug1 November 16, 2009 at 14:00

What I’m suggesting is that Cougars are psychologically going after “faux alpha types”, that is young guy betas (and rarely higher betas at that unless they’re real young). While they’ve got their provider male (which women in their 30s and up do tend to want to be able to rely on even when they don’t have to) tied up by divorce extractions.

They’re a made up, false alpha based on as Nova says getting back at and aping men their age (or trying to trump them, specifically her ex husband still paying for her by feminist extractions) going after younger women. But doing it one better by going after even younger guys, early 20s often, than their ex husband can typically get.

They’re faux alphas because it’s based entirely on just sex (sexual stamina if not knowledge or ability to last or authority in these betas), or images of that, and not on the full package women actually want, and esp. do when they don’t have a provider male tied up and they 30 and older. Critically this faux alpha image for their beta boys for the night are also based on their allies in the women’s movement and media talking up these young guys and making them seem sexy and desirable, instead of unable to pull young girls their own age or younger because they are beta.

I’m saying it’s basically BS because these young beta guys rarely really feel alpha to the older women. I’m not saying cougars can never pull alpha young guys but it’s mostly a fantasy and not what even the better cougars can get. Especially they can’t pull the guys they’d really like to, especially the 30 somethings, or even the late 20s alphas except in a blue moon.

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Obsidian November 16, 2009 at 14:11

Doug1 makes a very good point that I think alot of folks have tended to overlook.

Look, I don’t have an axe to grind against a Woman having a sex life, be she 20 or 50. If she can get it – and let’s be honest here, most Women at least in theory, can – more power to em, is what I say.

But I think this notion that “Cougars” have it goin’ on just like anyone and everyone else…well, that’s where I tend to part company. True, they can get sex and have the right to do so, and all that. And again, I don’t have a problem with older Women per se. But come on, let’s be honest – a 25 year old Woman trumps a 45 year old one any day of the week – and the vast majority of young guys, let’s say in their 20s themselves? If they could have their druthers, they’re taking the 25 year old young chippie, over the 45 year old MILF. Again, all things being equal.

All that being said, I really don’t have a problem with younger guys hooking up with older gals – hey, nobody’s being hurt by it, so what’s the big whup – but I do think alot of Women, and this is beginning to sound like a broken record, are overestimating their sexual market value if they think they can do at 45-plus what they cold at 25. It. Just. Ain’t. So.

I’m just sayin.

The Obsidian

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 14:25

Obsidian, Doug:

Not that you are asserting that I’m against older women/younger men pairings, but I just want to make clear that I’m not impugning those relationships. I just want to dispel any myths that are out there about why those women want to have sex. I don’t buy for one second the meme that they are acting on some uncontrollable biological urge. It is an excuse that women use to justify their behavior. I would be much more amenable if they’d just say “I want to fuck because it feels good or because I want to.” Enough said there instead of spouting illogical myths.

Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 14:31

Zed et al who argue that women develop a strategy of higher levels of horniness in order to have more copulations to make up for lower fertility:

While there may be some social issues that have fostered this discrepancy, this study provides evidence that the younger a *single* woman is, the higher rates of sexual activity she exhibits. Check out the table on page 3. Single women’s sexual activity decreases in older age ranges even though the prediction is that women who are older should adopt more “slutty” behavior. Perhaps this is merely a function of her lower levels of attractiveness to men i.e. if she weren’t hornier than her younger counterparts her rates of copulation would be all the lower. That being said, I can’t find any studies on the Web that make that point.

Any links?

clarence November 16, 2009 at 14:36

Well , gee, Chuck, when we start talking about “unavoidable urges ” and 40, 45 – I’m in agreement with you and Obsidian. The period of female baby rabies with very rare exceptions occurs way before that by at least five and often ten years. My opinion 27 to 35 with a few outliers to the late 30′s..that’s a woman with baby rabies. Anything else is cougar full stop.

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Obsidian November 16, 2009 at 14:47

Chuck,
Come on Man, I thought you knew better than that!;) You know that Women can’t afford to be brutally honest in the ways you and I and just about any other guy can? Read your Mystery Method, it says it right in the very beginning of the book as I recall.

Personally, I couldn’t care less as to the reasons for WHY Women want to have sex. All’s I’m saying is that Women need a healthy dose of REALITY so they don’t hurt themselves.

;)

The Obsidian

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kis November 16, 2009 at 14:48

While there may be some social issues that have fostered this discrepancy, this study provides evidence that the younger a *single* woman is, the higher rates of sexual activity she exhibits. Check out the table on page 3. Single women’s sexual activity decreases in older age ranges even though the prediction is that women who are older should adopt more “slutty” behavior. Perhaps this is merely a function of her lower levels of attractiveness to men i.e. if she weren’t hornier than her younger counterparts her rates of copulation would be all the lower. That being said, I can’t find any studies on the Web that make that point.

I can only speak for myself in this. I am hornier now (and for the last five years or so) than I was in my 20s. And I have waaaaaay less sex. Hell, even immediately after having two kids fifteen months apart, when my sex drive was below zero, I had more sex at 25 than I do now. This has nothing whatsoever to do with how much sex I want(ed).

I’m soon to be divorced. I’m almost 40. I have three kids I’m not interested in dragging through a parade of short term relationships, who put serious constraints on the time I can devote to getting laid. I live in a small town where anonymity is impossible and discretion a must. If I didn’t have those limitations–which affect both my attractiveness to potential partners (baggage, holy hell do I have it, and my age) and the feasibility of releasing my inner slut to run wild–I’d be fucking every night of the week, and half the afternoons. As it is, I rub one off at least daily, sometimes more.

So no, I don’t have more sex. I have waaaaaay less sex now than at any other time in my life. But that don’t mean I don’t want it all the freaking time.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 14:51

Chuck Ross:

The study you linked to breaks age down into roughly ten year intervals : 20-29, 30-39, 40-49, The problem with this is that really low rates at one one end of an interval can depress significantly higher rates at the beginning of that interval. No one, for instance, should try to tell me that a single woman 36 to 40 has the same sexual market value as one 30 to 35, or 25 to 29 for that matter. Secondly, since it lumps sex into ten year intervals it might not capture a biological phenomenon that starts and ends within two different intervals. For instance, for most women, the “biological clock” time is probably between the years 27 to 35. Lastly, you are attacking a strawman when you assert that the “baby rabies” phenomenon should only grow stronger over the years of a woman’s life – an 80 year old woman will never feel her bio clock is ticking, because she has already went thru menoapause. The sad thing, in a way, is that a womans chances of having a baby are already well compromised by the time her body gets around to getting rid of her remaining eggs, but then biological adaptions are never perfect. What women’s libido peaking in their thirties means as a practical measure is that most women will get a “last chance” to get pregnant while they still have sufficient fertility to make the odds in their favor.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 15:02

kis:

Heh. Too bad we’re not closer. Then again, I’m bad. If you haven’t had a surgery, I suspect you are one of those woman who at your age can still get “knocked up”.

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Kimski November 16, 2009 at 15:05

Kis

Um… you mentioned something about chinese and beer, didn´t you??
;)

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chic noir November 16, 2009 at 15:06

1. women are more comfortable with who they are and they have a better understanding of what they enjoy by this age. Contrary to my darling whiskey, not every woman has had 25 partners by age 25.

2. This could also be the bodies way to “push” a woman to become pregnant since time is winding down and it takes more “shots” for her to become pregnant. Testosterone increases as is evidenced by the number of over 35 women who grow a few chin hairs.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 15:10

Clarence:

i’m asserting that that “last chance” doesn’t create more desire and urge for sex than when the woman is much younger. the desire and urge is there when the women are young; social factors have muted it. as far as the study i cited, i see your points, but its also possible to infer from the trend of the data that as women get older they are having less sex. as i said, there may be other social factors making those numbers’ interpretation vague, but it does at least indicate a trend. we’d need those values broken down for each year i.e. 27,28,29 etc.

also, i don’t recall implying that womens’ “baby rabies” should continue into old age. we’ve pretty much all accepted that a woman’s body, for all intents and purposes, becomes inhospitable to child-bearing at around 40. as a matter of fact, i think that while its possible that baby rabies may have some biological grounding (i honestly don’t know and haven’t found literature on it, links?), i’m more inclined to think its a social thing. women know what wall they are up against. they see others with their babies. i’ve often called it “baby fever” and it is exhibited when a woman holds someone elses infant; more often than not they’ll utter the phrase “ahh, i want a baby”. if the urge were so strong, and not a socially triggered phenomenon, they’d walk around saying those things at the age of 30 regardless of if they were holding a child.

Doug1 November 16, 2009 at 15:13

kis–

I would seem so dysfunctional to be getting a divorce under your circumstances, even solely from your point of view, before considering your and your husband’s kids — and likely him. You’re the one that wanted it, I believe I saw intimated on some thread around here?

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 15:13

chic:

way to read the post and/or the comments…NOT. you didn’t read anything said thus far did you?

first, you spouted two arguments that have already been made. second, i already provided links to show that your second argument that women have higher t levels is invalid. women (and men) reach their testosterone peak in their 20s.

the argument has now switched to whether or not women get a case of baby rabies which therefore increases their sex drive as a last ditch effort to procreate. i suspect this is not the case, but i’m researching it and welcome any help.

kis November 16, 2009 at 15:14

kis:

Heh. Too bad we’re not closer. Then again, I’m bad. If you haven’t had a surgery, I suspect you are one of those woman who at your age can still get “knocked up”.

LOL, Clarence. Any time you’re in the area… :D

Actually, I got my tubes tied three years ago because I didn’t want to face 15+ more years on the pill (sore boobs and mood swings for another decade and a half? I don’t think so). When they were wheeling me into the OR, the doctor chose that moment to inform me that 3 women out of every 1000 get pregnant after a tubal. I shouted, “You’re telling me this NOW? For crying out loud, with my family history, statistically, I’ll probably be all three of those women!”

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kis November 16, 2009 at 15:20

i’ve often called it “baby fever” and it is exhibited when a woman holds someone elses infant; more often than not they’ll utter the phrase “ahh, i want a baby”.

Hah! I refuse to even touch anyone else’s baby. Every time I did, I’d end up knocked up, whether I wanted to be or not. Now, someone tries shoving their baby into my arms, I tell them to “My last kid was 11 lbs. I’ll rip out my reproductive organs with my bare hands before I put myself through that again.”

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kis November 16, 2009 at 15:28

I would seem so dysfunctional to be getting a divorce under your circumstances, even solely from your point of view, before considering your and your husband’s kids — and likely him. You’re the one that wanted it, I believe I saw intimated on some thread around here?

It would seem dysfunctional, perhaps, on the surface. But keep in mind that since we separated, I’m financially no worse off despite working the same hours and him not paying me a dime of support, my kids are getting better grades and not fighting as much. And I get more sex, too, believe it or not than I did in the last couple years of the marriage.

It was the marriage that was deeply dysfunctional. I’ll admit, had I ended it sooner, I’d have been in a better position to start over. But I hated to admit I couldn’t fix it, so I kept trying long after it was sane or reasonable to do so.

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zed November 16, 2009 at 15:37

Zed et al who argue that women develop a strategy of higher levels of horniness in order to have more copulations to make up for lower fertility:
(snip)
Any links?

I really don’t have a dog in this particular fight one way or the other, Chuck, except for the point I made in my post about the biological context of sexuality and mating – all behavior is purposeful.

I don’t think it is possible to separate the purely biological from the social when it comes to human beings. However strong the biological urges of the young of either sex are, when I was in my teens both young men and women were expected to practice sexual restraint, and most of us did.

Simply using my own reactions as a guideline, I know that I had a much stronger reaction to a woman under the age of 27 or so than I did to one in her mid-30s. In order to compete for male attention, women approaching middle age have to try harder. Whether the foundation of this is purely biological, purely social, or a combination of both, I don’t think matters.

I have had conversations with women who said that when they were ready to get pregnant, no man was safe and even doorknobs looked good. It would also make a lot of biological sense for a woman whose purely biological-based attraction was fading to up her game on the emotional bonding front.

Explanations are not “excuses”, and I think reaching an understanding of people’s behavior and the reasons which lie under it gives us a better handle on how to manage that behavior instead of running away from the explanation into ideology and sweeping everything into the catch-all of “sin” which makes people hide and deny the behavior instead of confronting it and seeking to control it.

As a farm kid, I have seen similar enough behavior in several different species to believe that as a female’s fertility declines her sexual receptivity to less that the best breeder males and her signalling to attract attention both increase.

I happen to believe that humans are part of the natural world and that some of the same principles of the well known “birds and bees” apply to us, too.

But, it certainly isn’t important enough to me to get into an argument about.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 15:46

“But, it certainly isn’t important enough to me to get into an argument about.”

Zed, no arguing here. I just like discussing ideas like this. If I’m wrong I like to know it.

chic noir November 16, 2009 at 15:50

chuck way to read the post and/or the comments…NOT

I read the post and comments on your personal blog and didn’t bother reading the entire post here.

As far as the comments here go, I often post my comment before reading the comments of others.

Sorry if I upset you Chuck :(

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zed November 16, 2009 at 15:56

the argument has now switched to whether or not women get a case of baby rabies which therefore increases their sex drive as a last ditch effort to procreate. i suspect this is not the case, but i’m researching it and welcome any help.

Once again, Chuck, I am going purely on the belief that humans are part of the natural world and are subject to some of the same influences.

Now, I can’t say anything specific here about women, but it is a phenomenon well known to farmers and orchard keepers that it is very common for a tree to set a bumper crop of fruit right before it dies. Among barn cats, it is common for litters to gradually decrease over time until the momma’s last litter, which is almost always the largest one she has in her life. Sow pigs which are allowed to continue to produce as long as they can often show the same pattern.

If you live with nature very long, almost everything you see makes perfect sense. To me, it would make perfect sense that when an individual’s potential reproductive capacity was running out there would be complex and subtle mechanisms at work to give it the best shot at reproducing before time ran out.

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Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 15:56

“Sorry if I upset you Chuck”

of course not. my refusal to use emoticons sometimes gets me into trouble wrt virtual communication. didn’t mean for my tone to be misinterpreted as anger or anything like that. and actually, i meant to have the first part with the “NOT” in it read with a Borat accent.

Chuck Ross November 16, 2009 at 16:02

Zed:

that is a powerful argument. i’ve never heard that before to tell you the truth. but it does make sense when put that way.

now, not to pick nits, but the myth that i’m trying to dispel is basically that women @ 30 = men @ 18 – at least in their relative levels of horniness. there may be a last ditch effort on the part of females, but i’m curious how it relates to women in their prime fertile years. if the myth turns out to be “women at 35 are just as horny as women at 20″ then the myth loses all power.

clarence November 16, 2009 at 16:27

The “fact” to me -not myth – is that women on average from 27 to 35 (remember there’s always outliers with extremely fecund or slow to mature women) are the horniest they’ve ever been in their lives. So far, you haven’t disproved this. And I gotta admit Chuck, you’re nice to talk to. But the way you phrased your argument initially seemed to deny it was even moral for women over 30 to have a sex drive – after all their best years are behind them, what could possibly make them want to have sex more desperately than ever before- and to conflate baby rabies with cougerdom. Now I know you are not making these arguments, but when I first read your post it sure seemed like it.

Anyway, grant me for the sake of argument that I, and the culture at large are right – women are as horny as they ever could be just about the time their fertility starts its precipitous decline- what is the big deal if a 30 ish (not 40ish) woman is in some ways a horny teen boy? How does that help our evil feminist overlords?..tongue only slightly in cheek.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 16:28

Chuck, again only speaking for myself:

I wasn’t nearly as horny at 20–but I did have a lot of sex. A LOT.

When I was 20, I never had to go looking for sex, never had to pursue a man, never had to even change out of my bulky sweaters and baggy jeans (no matter how hard I tried to hide my body, there were men who could tell I had one), almost never wore make-up and didn’t bother much about my hair. I didn’t even flirt (honestly, I don’t think I even knew how).

Men had to work a lot harder then to get sex out of me (whether that was just taking time for me to get to know them–even my one night stands were with men I’d known for a few months at least through work or school or mutual acquaintances–or actively seducing) than they do now (we’re talking sex here, not dating).

Because as horny as I was then, it doesn’t hold a candle to how horny I am now. Even during my “dry spells”, which sometimes lasted six months, in my twenties I never felt the need to take matters “in hand”. I was a responder, not a seeker. I’d get turned on when I had the opportunity for sex with a guy who did it for me. Now, I’m turned on all the time, despite the fact that the opportunity to **have sex has dropped to virtually zero.

**I actually have plenty of opportunity with lots of men, some of whom are simply unsuitable (drug addicts, married, not quite right in the head, have more dogs and guns than teeth, etc). The rest want relationships. I also want a relationship, but not with them (for a variety of reasons), so I’m not going to complicate my life and hurt them by using them for sex. Small town means I know or can find out lots about any potential partner, but it also means if I fuck the wrong guy I can’t just quietly disappear and pretend it didn’t happen.

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Welmer November 16, 2009 at 16:39

When I was 20, I never had to go looking for sex, never had to pursue a man, never had to even change out of my bulky sweaters and baggy jeans (no matter how hard I tried to hide my body, there were men who could tell I had one), almost never wore make-up and didn’t bother much about my hair. I didn’t even flirt (honestly, I don’t think I even knew how).

When I was 20 I didn’t have to work at it at all, either. When you’re young, healthy and well-built it just comes over and sits on your lap.

Men had to work a lot harder then to get sex out of me (whether that was just taking time for me to get to know them–even my one night stands were with men I’d known for a few months at least through work or school or mutual acquaintances–or actively seducing) than they do now (we’re talking sex here, not dating).

I don’t believe that. Hot, built chicks gave it up just as easy as the others. When you’re that young and not thinking about money, career, etc., all you want is to have a good night with someone who turns you on. I actually could count on the really hot girls to give it up faster than the plainer ones. They give you that sly eye and next thing you know you’re rolling around in bed together.

Now I ask myself why I gave that all up in my sexual prime for some futile dream of having a happy family…

Such is the bitterness of life.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 17:00

I actually could count on the really hot girls to give it up faster than the plainer ones. They give you that sly eye and next thing you know you’re rolling around in bed together.

I’d agree with that assessment when it comes to most women. I was never much for conforming to type when I was young, though. I was much more likely to sleep with a guy with a big nose or thick glasses if I liked him as a person, than I was to fuck a player–but yes, there were tons of hot chicks in tight clothes who gave it up for the alph-holes. And it may even be that being on the pill messed with my libido, and that might be why I wasn’t horny all the time.

I think that lack of constant horniness when I was younger made me choose based on more than the “ten second assessment”. Now, I’m careful despite my horniness because I have to be–there’s a hell of a lot more riding on my choices than there was when I was single and young and living a largely anonymous urban life with a bottomless mating pool. Last thing I want to become is my small town’s “community bicycle” when I’ve got three kids in tow.

But it’s hard as hell to keep that in the forefront of my mind. Sometimes I think if I wasn’t a chronic masturbator, I’d be frothing at the mouth all the time.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 17:19

kis:

Your comments on what you said in the emergency room and how you avoid holding babies made me laugh.

Thank you :)

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Welmer November 16, 2009 at 17:19

I’d agree with that assessment when it comes to most women. I was never much for conforming to type when I was young, though. I was much more likely to sleep with a guy with a big nose or thick glasses if I liked him as a person, than I was to fuck a player–but yes, there were tons of hot chicks in tight clothes who gave it up for the alph-holes. And it may even be that being on the pill messed with my libido, and that might be why I wasn’t horny all the time.

-kis

What makes you think the guys were all alphas (or “alph-holes” as you put it)? Aesthetics aren’t necessarily tied to behavior; some of the best-looking young guys I’ve known were innocent, pure, and totally clueless when it comes to women. At that age, you can just enjoy pretty people from a purely human, aesthetic perspective. In fact, we can enjoy that at any age, even if we don’t have it anymore. There’s nothing particularly admirable about giving it up for ugly people, although it’s your business either way, and I suppose they will appreciate it more than most others.

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21Guns November 16, 2009 at 18:13

Interesting article. I can’t say for sure whether or not I’m going through my sexual peak right now; I do know that my libido took a dip during my 30′s, then came back with a vengeance a few years ago. At the time, I attributed it to stuff going wrong in my life, but I suppose it could have been hormonal.

I also can’t say whether I’m hornier at 41 than I was at 21; it sure feels that way sometimes. But that was a long time ago, and I was in a very different frame of mind back then.

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Chuck November 16, 2009 at 18:33

Guns:

I’m not saying that this is true in your case or even true in general, but as people get older they have an incentive to make it seem as if whatever stage they’re at, its the best they’ve ever had. since sex is so highly valued, to admit that you might not be at your prime is to admit that your best days are behind you. nobody wants to do that.

My assertion is that people embrace the late female sexual peak because it provides that empowerment and delays the negative feelings associated with lack of sexuality or sex drive.

that being said, the previous comments about the female strategy of using horniness to make up for decreased attractiveness (and that younger, fitter women won’t be as horny) makes some sense. women have strategies to hold off from giving it up because they want a man who will play the Dad role. the late sexual peak may be that strategy in effect. i’m reading up on it.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 18:45

What makes you think the guys were all alphas (or “alph-holes” as you put it)? Aesthetics aren’t necessarily tied to behavior; some of the best-looking young guys I’ve known were innocent, pure, and totally clueless when it comes to women. At that age, you can just enjoy pretty people from a purely human, aesthetic perspective. In fact, we can enjoy that at any age, even if we don’t have it anymore. There’s nothing particularly admirable about giving it up for ugly people, although it’s your business either way, and I suppose they will appreciate it more than most others.

I said players, not all good looking guys. I’ve had my share of very physically attractive men, too. But even including one night stands, every single person I’ve slept with (with the exception of the first one and the last one) has been someone I knew for at least a few months. I lost my virginity to a guy I’d just met–it was a mercenary decision on my part, since I’d had a couple of guys I liked balk at the idea of being my first. I don’t even remember his name. And the last guy I slept with was someone I’d only met a couple hours before. Both experiences were less than spectacular.

What I’m getting at is I wasn’t horny enough for a handsome face and a good body alone to sweep me off my feet. I made my decisions based mostly on whether they were likable guys, and that took time to figure out. Good looks were definitely a bonus, but not necessary.

(That said, I’ve never slept with a guy I considered ugly–a big nose or thick glasses can be balanced out by a hot body or really gorgeous lips or something. And I’ve never slept with someone who was more than maybe thirty pounds overweight, or had poor personal hygiene. I’ve also never slept with an alcoholic or a drug addict or someone with really bad tooth decay.)

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chic noir November 16, 2009 at 18:47

What about progesterone fellas?

Globalman Women are perfectly able to have sex 5-10 times a day. They are called prostitutes and they have no problems doing this. If perfectly normal women can have sex 5-10 times a day what’s the problem with our wives?…Oh..they haven’t reached their ’sexual peak yet’

It’s a part of their job and they don’t have to enjoy it. Don’t forget they use lube too.
Oh, and I can imagine for some, that being with a new and attractive man(rare) might give them gina tingles.

anoukange Throughout my many, many chats with women, sex is better in the late twenties through the mid thirites. Their bodies have shifted in a way that allows them a more heightened climax. Orgasms are better and longer.

If there is a God in heaven, please let this be true. Let there be something for me to look forward to in middle age besides saggy boobs, bills and BS.

Clarence to kis Heh. Too bad we’re not closer.
*sigh*

Another e-alpha dressed in sheeps clothing.

*sits back and sings nothing like my default to myself*

chuck of course not. my refusal to use emoticons sometimes gets me into trouble wrt virtual communication. didn’t mean for my tone to be misinterpreted as anger or anything like that.

*chic noir smiles happily*

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21Guns November 16, 2009 at 18:48

I’m not saying that this is true in your case or even true in general, but as people get older they have an incentive to make it seem as if whatever stage they’re at, its the best they’ve ever had. since sex is so highly valued, to admit that you might not be at your prime is to admit that your best days are behind you. nobody wants to do that.

That’s entirely possible. But that’s also why I mentioned my frame of mind earlier. Even if I were to accept that I hit my peak in my early 20′s, I can say with certainlty that my sex life was extremely unsatisfying at that time, because I didn’t know what I was doing. I knew I wanted sex (lots of it, lol), but at the same time I did not want a relationship AND I didn’t want to be a slut. So I spent a lot of time running in circles and not accomplishing anything.

It’s possible that sex just *seems* better now, because I’ve finally gotten my shit together. It’s all relative.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 18:58

I will add that a lot of men I wouldn’t have really looked at twice–even now–get more attractive to me the longer I know them. There’s a guy in town that I’d always thought was kind of a shy, dorky doormat type and I’d never considered his face appealing, but as I watched him interact with his kids and friends at the restaurant where I work over a few months, well, I’m starting to see him as more handsome physically as well. Plus, he’s got mechanic’s hands. Scars and calluses, mmmm.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 19:08

Lol! Chicklet m’dear, I missed where we exchanged rings and vowed our undying loyalty. I’m actually in Baltimore, so much closer to yours truly than to Madame Kis, who, by the way, seems to want an entirely sexual relationship. I’ll take that over no relationship any day of the week. Now should something develop, I am hoping for a LTR sometimes soon, but I think I’d have to steal you from your precious default and if your heart was to break, mine would too..

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Doug1 November 16, 2009 at 19:14

kis –

but as I watched him interact with his kids and friends at the restaurant where I work over a few months, well, I’m starting to see him as more handsome physically as well.

Yes. I’ve come to realize that’s a general phenomenon in women. They see attractive qualities in men as making them physically handsome. That’s how they translate it at least in our Hollywood saturated culture.

Note women only do this for qualities they viscerally FEEL to be attractive, not for those they know they should like for their children or future security, etc.

In first time meet up, women with any experience (even vicarious through reading etc. if at all deep) will translate male alpha edginess, energy and dominace into looking hot and attractive, even if his face is objectively isn’t handsome at all, or even sub par. Yeah there’s some resistance against physically ugliness, but really there’s a big phenom of women ascribing any kind of instinctive emotional pull to a man to his “looks”.

Ok I’ll say that’s heavily cultural. In another culture it could be ascribe to his “aura” or spirit and so on. It’s Hollywood and girls fitting their feelings into mainstream boxes given to them.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 19:16

I’m actually in Baltimore, so much closer to yours truly than to Madame Kis, who, by the way, seems to want an entirely sexual relationship.

Pfft. I do not. I want a relationship and I want sex. I also want a father figure for my kids and some long term stability with someone who’ll treat me as well as I treat him. Sex is just the easiest thing to swing right now, all things considered.

I could promise you, Clarence, that if you are decent, kind, honorable and a net providor rather than a net drain on resources, I’d bone you eight ways from Sunday on a regular basis. Forget the chicklet. Vancouver Island is where it’s at. Awesome hunting and fishing out here, you know, and it hardly snows in the winter… :P

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zed November 16, 2009 at 19:21

I’d bone you eight ways from Sunday on a regular basis.
it hardly snows in the winter…

The check is in the mail.
This won’t hurt a bit.
I’m from the government and I’m here to help you.
;)

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kis November 16, 2009 at 19:28

In first time meet up, women with any experience (even vicarious through reading etc. if at all deep) will translate male alpha edginess, energy and dominace into looking hot and attractive, even if his face is objectively isn’t handsome at all, or even sub par.

Well, I’d seen him in social situations where he always looked nervous and uptight and painfully shy (which he is), and I don’t know if I’d ever seen him smile.

But then he started bringing his kids in to eat, and I saw how he is with them–stern but affectionate, obviously proud of them. And they were like an ice-breaker. He actually started having conversations with me (about the kids mostly), and becoming more animated and at ease. And he can smile! So I think it was more a matter of seeing him in a situation where he was relaxed and comfortable.

And I have to admit when he told me his ex (I know her, she’s a heinous bitch) wanted more child support and he threatened to sue her for custody since he’s fit and financially able to care for them too? I got a little tingle.

So there are some alpha qualities in there, even if they don’t manifest most of the time. That is very attractive. But I like that they’re balanced with humility, honesty, decency, intelligence, common sense, generosity–which were all also hiding behind the painfully shy exterior.

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JerkDogg November 16, 2009 at 19:30

Women’s sex drive often will change between 35 and 40. Usually this happens if a woman doesn’t have her hands full with kids yet. They become easier and more horny. The phenomenon is called “sexual expediting” and has some academic research to support it. Google the subject.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 19:32

The check is in the mail.
This won’t hurt a bit.
I’m from the government and I’m here to help you.

It’s true! We get maybe two weeks of snow a year here. Most people don’t even own a snow shovel–they clear their driveways with garden spades. Lot’s of rain, though. Oy.

And yep. I’d bone him good and proper. Of course, it helps if the guy takes charge in the bedroom most of the time, but I have an appetite and I’m not afraid to indulge it.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 19:38

Thank you JerkDogg!

Here’s a link to one study I found using your wording. I was using women, libido and age as search phrases on google before, and getting mostly useless results.

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/students/Confer/Presentation2.pdf

They agree that the phenomena is real, but this study seemed to show it occurs from 36 to 40, whereas an earlier one had put it in the early 30′s.

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clarence November 16, 2009 at 19:44

Madame Kis:

Then I must respectfully turn you down. I’d raise your kids, yes, but to be honest I want one of my own or maybe two. I misunderstood your offer, and for that I apologize. You are an attractive woman, but you want from me what I cannot give or promise in good faith. I am sorry.

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Welmer November 16, 2009 at 19:52

In first time meet up, women with any experience (even vicarious through reading etc. if at all deep) will translate male alpha edginess, energy and dominace into looking hot and attractive, even if his face is objectively isn’t handsome at all, or even sub par. Yeah there’s some resistance against physically ugliness, but really there’s a big phenom of women ascribing any kind of instinctive emotional pull to a man to his “looks”.

-Doug1

That’s true. It’s also one thing that makes women a bit ignoble, as I see it. It would be hard to begrudge a woman for falling for a beautiful man, but their frequent attraction to ugly, disgusting types because of some qualities that are often repugnant to other men isn’t something that endears them to me much. It is no wonder that the most beautiful epics have been written by men; were women to compose them they would be bawdy, raunchy and crass — just like “Sex in the City.”

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Doug1 November 16, 2009 at 19:55

kis–

You’re a fun character kis.

How did you discover this sphere?

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C.Tusten Houchin November 16, 2009 at 20:51

The cougar phenomenon is more apparent than real. It is real in the fact that older women are more free to date younger men. But it is stll more acceptable to be an older man with an (often much) younger “girl.” There are factors that have mitigated this somewhat. The days of 59 year old Clark Gable, and 60+ Cary Grant are over. Hollywood has less enduring icons now, who are allowed to get older. But Hugh Hefner’s reality show is impossible to imagine with the roles reversed; and whereas 50 year old James Bond still gets the “20 somethings,” 5o year old Kathleen Turner, and 66 year old Linda Evans, simply vanish; only surfacing in Bad Plasic Surgery posts and blogs.

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Sofia November 16, 2009 at 21:20

Most of my fellow 20 y/o girlfriends feel visceral raw lust but are unable to fully understand, accept, and express it. Half of my girlfriends are virgins, but sometimes when we allude to sex/masturbation, the crude desire is definitely there. There is shame involved however in acknowledging those feelings as not only present, but acceptable.

30 y/o women are in fact, just more comfortable with those aspects of themselves, but I don’t think that qualifies them to be at their “sexual peak”, as you say.

Plus, I can’t accept the possibility my sex drive could get higher than it already is.

Doug,

They see attractive qualities in men as making them physically handsome.

Too true. I have a hard time extricating an “objective” analyses of a man’s looks if I appreciate other qualities about him, good or bad.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 21:32

Then I must respectfully turn you down. I’d raise your kids, yes, but to be honest I want one of my own or maybe two. I misunderstood your offer, and for that I apologize. You are an attractive woman, but you want from me what I cannot give or promise in good faith. I am sorry.

Aw crap. Well, even for a man of your charm and obvious quality, I would not submit myself to another 10 month pregnancy (and we had to induce!) culminating in the birth of an 11 lb behemoth. Or maybe worse, because they got bigger and later each time. Bluh.

You’re a fun character kis.

How did you discover this sphere?

Thanks, Doug. I try to laugh at myself before others get the chance–kind of a preemptive humor strike, lol. I came over with the hoards of women who fembarded PMAFT’s article on science fiction. I’m a (dirty) romance writer and there are a lot of feminists in Romanceblogland. I must say, his article pissed me off (still does a little, mostly due to the fact that feminized science fiction would self-correct if men were a demographic worth courting. If you want shows made for you, you have to watch them, dudes. And buy stuff. And not download pirated shit for free).

Then someone made the comment about feminist’s use of “shaming language” like “you spend too much time on the internet” and OMG, I almost lost it because sometimes (in my ex’s case) it’s not shaming language–it’s true. So then I thought, do these men have anything remotely reasonable to say? and checked out some of the other articles and discovered you did. A lot of it is applicable to the collapse of my marriage, and I figured hey, why not stick around and figure out how to not go so horribly wrong in the future?

Learning a lot from you guys.

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Welmer November 16, 2009 at 21:59

Most of my fellow 20 y/o girlfriends feel visceral raw lust but are unable to fully understand, accept, and express it. Half of my girlfriends are virgins, but sometimes when we allude to sex/masturbation, the crude desire is definitely there. There is shame involved however in acknowledging those feelings as not only present, but acceptable.

-Sofia

In my experience, there’s no argument that younger women are more sexually expressive. They enjoy natural sex without resorting to toys or kinkiness, they are much more open to frequent sex, and they rarely turn down the opportunity. The first time I had a “relationship” with a woman who turned down sex, it was when I was seeing a woman who was ten years older than me — she was 34 at the time. She was very good looking for her age, and must have been absolutely stunning in her early 20s, and although she enjoyed sex and was more open to trying different things, she just wasn’t as into it as the younger women I was also seeing.

One day, when I was really hot and bothered, she turned me down. After trying for a little while to convince her to change her mind (I know, beta, but I was just a kid and REALLY horny), I gave up and went home. Then I simply stopped seeing her, because the 20yo girls I could call up never would have done that, and they just had a good time every time. When you get older, whether you’re a man or woman, your senses dull a bit. This isn’t all bad, because life can be very painful, but I think a lot of people forget how it feels to be an adolescent, when your desires are as bright as the morning sun. The colors are brighter, the smells sharper, and sounds are clearer. Everything is more present and immediate, including desire.

Older women are not more sensual and do not have a higher sex drive — it simply appears that way because their presence is much more formidable, just as a 30-something male player, although he appears to be a raging vessel of lust, does not have a higher sex drive than a typical 20yo boy who gets it on with his girlfriend(s) every day and then some.

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Gunslingergregi November 16, 2009 at 22:19

Once a day is low and it still is a low number for me . It all depends on the inspration and it always did.

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Chuck November 16, 2009 at 23:05

clarence:

i think i just witnessed you gaming chic noir and kis…good job.

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kis November 16, 2009 at 23:38

i think i just witnessed you gaming chic noir and kis…good job.

Now if he’d swatted my ass, I’d have been all his.

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Gunslingergregi November 16, 2009 at 23:50

Except for you being bi
he he he

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kis November 16, 2009 at 23:55

Except for you being bi
he he he

Stereotypes and bigotry! :P

But seriously, being bi doesn’t mean I’m not monogamous. The right man could banish women to my fantasies for good. Or vice versa. When I’m with someone, I’m with them 100%.

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Gunslingergregi November 17, 2009 at 00:12

Oh you where trying to get benefits for being a woman and being a bu woman. 2 protective classes no less. Are there any more you use lol

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Gunslingergregi November 17, 2009 at 00:14

But being bi kind of messes it up though as woman can’t give what a man can and man can’t give what a woman can. Why it doesn’t make sense to get with bi chicks for a guy.

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kis November 17, 2009 at 00:38

Yup, being a bi woman gets me TONS of benefits–usually in the form of eyebrow waggling and propositions for threesomes, usually with men AND women I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole.

But being bi kind of messes it up though as woman can’t give what a man can and man can’t give what a woman can. Why it doesn’t make sense to get with bi chicks for a guy.

Not necessarily so. Most bi women are perfectly happy being monogamous–we just have more options. I love who I love. I didn’t get a wandering eye for women (or for men) until I knew my marriage was dead, and I didn’t act on it until I’d given my ex the death certificate. But being gender-queer helps. I fill the role I find myself in. When I’m with a man, I’m happy being a woman, and my emotions are a lot less conflicted.

Ooh, wait, maybe I can get benefits for being gender-queer, too. Can’t wait to hear what the creepy guy at the grocery store suggests.

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Gunslingergregi November 17, 2009 at 00:58

I think guys who are supposed to like lesbians is mostly from movies. I mean it doesn’t make sense. If I am gonna have a threesome it is gonna be with 2 straight chicks who both want me. Why would I want to share either with some lesbo?

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Chuck November 17, 2009 at 02:07

Gregi:

wow, i’m glad someone else agrees with me. i wrote something a while back on that topic. while i’ll look at lesbians getting it on; it’s only because i’d look at each women seperately in the same way. them being together provides no sexual synergy for me; the hotness is merely a sum of their two levels of attractiveness rather than a product of it.

as you said, there’s usually no place for me in that dance. my sexual fantasies exist because i picture myself participating. i have nothing at all against lesbians qua lesbians, but it is a form of cuckoldry that i think is odd for men to enjoy.

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Gunslingergregi November 17, 2009 at 02:14

Exactly why it is probably always portrayed on media as so cool. But really it is almost automatic for guy to be like oh great bi sex but have they really thought about it. Like is it better in threesome to have two straight chicks or two lesbians?
Seems more like a pavlovian repsponse based on how many times it has been portrayed on tv. Plus I would imagine there wouldn’t really be that many guys who have actually had a threesome.

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clarence November 17, 2009 at 03:59

Kis:

I don’t know you well enough to swat your ass.

And to be honest if I did, I’d probably have a hard time resisting turning you over my knee and spanking it. But you’d like that :)

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clarence November 17, 2009 at 04:08

Chuck:

While I’m enjoying teasing them and bantering with them, I really am not *consciously at least* gaming chic and Kis. Kis has just made a good impression since she’s been here, and I’ve been at Roissys mostly as a lurker since about My or June of last year, so I know Chic Noir’s blog persona really well and I’ve always liked her.

Yes, I could see under some circumstances meeting one or both these women as friends or more, but, as she said, Kis needs something I cannot provide to her, and while I might think she’d make a great friend or fuckbuddy or whatever and I might wish she could find a way to escape her small town and find someone to truly care for her and her kids , that’s really all I can do.

My chickletab is a thought provoking, cute and funny poster whom I know shit all about r/l except I think she lives up in PA or NY state somewhere.

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Jabherwochie November 17, 2009 at 08:05

I hate to be the downer, but more science please, less flirting.

If womens testosterone peaks in the mid-twenties, why the facial hair in the mid-thirties. Do other hormones decrease, allowing the testosterone to surfice so to speak? And estrogen, while apparently not affecting libido, affects the female mood; since women’s sexual stimulation is dependent on varied and more complex factors than men, maybe the mood arousal of estrogen, after testosterone levels drop around thirty, creates a better psychological playing field for sexual activity. High estrogen =good mood = no shame or guilt towards sex. High testosterone =horny, agitated, grumpy = lots of shame and guilt towards sex. Thoughts?

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kis November 17, 2009 at 08:30

I might think she’d make a great friend or fuckbuddy or whatever and I might wish she could find a way to escape her small town and find someone to truly care for her and her kids , that’s really all I can do.

Sigh. I don’t want to escape my small town. I love it here and so do my kids. But it does make dating…problematic. I think there’s maybe one suitable guy I know in the whole town.

I hate to be the downer, but more science please, less flirting.

Poo, Jabherwochie. I was having fun.

I’d assume from facial hair and other physical signs (the slight de-hourglassing of a woman’s body being one) that testosterone levels briefly rise after 30 before plummeting at the onset of menopause. I can attest that a low progestin (an androgen that mimics testosterone) birth control pill effectively kills sex drive, while a high progestin pill ups it like whoa and like damn. High libido doesn’t elevate guilt or shame (at least in me, and I’d assume in most women over 30). It does elevate aggression (sexual and otherwise) and therefore crankiness and frustration when needs (sexual and otherwise) aren’t met.

High estrogen levels don’t necessarily mean a good mood, either, especially if they’re coupled with lower testosterone. Fatigue, weepiness and malaise are more likely.

Testosterone (and thyroid hormones) is largely responsible for libido. Estrogen (and prolactin and thyroid hormones) govern genital response. When the hormone levels are wonky, you can have a woman whose genitals become aroused easily even though she never wants sex, or a woman who wants lots of sex but can’t get off to save her life.

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clarence November 17, 2009 at 08:40

Jabherwochie:

I think I’ve done more than my share of posting science links and opinions to this thread, thank you very much. Until Mr Ross is done his research I think the science portion of the thread is over, unless Ferdinand wants to respond to my criticisms and studies.

And I’ll flirt with whomever I want, thank you very much.

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Jabherwochie November 17, 2009 at 09:19

“clarence November 17, 2009 at 8:40 am
Jabherwochie:

I think I’ve done more than my share of posting science links and opinions to this thread, thank you very much. Until Mr Ross is done his research I think the science portion of the thread is over, unless Ferdinand wants to respond to my criticisms and studies.

And I’ll flirt with whomever I want, thank you very much.”

Your assertiveness is turning me on…..Oh, what! I can’t flirt?!

(Fag humor. Its funny, because its uncomfortable.)

“I’d assume from facial hair and other physical signs (the slight de-hourglassing of a woman’s body being one) that testosterone levels briefly rise after 30 before plummeting at the onset of menopause. ”

I thought it was stated/proven by the OP that testosterone in women peaks in the mid-twenties, not early thirties. That is why I bring up other possibilities.

“High libido doesn’t elevate guilt or shame ‘

Not in you, you little slut.

“High estrogen levels don’t necessarily mean a good mood, either, ”

Thats not what I googled. It says estrogen affects the mood. Isn’t google God? Do I need to take down my altar?

“Testosterone (and thyroid hormones) is largely responsible for libido. Estrogen (and prolactin and thyroid hormones) govern genital response. When the hormone levels are wonky, you can have a woman whose genitals become aroused easily even though she never wants sex, or a woman who wants lots of sex but can’t get off to save her life.”

Interesting.

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kis November 17, 2009 at 11:39

Thats not what I googled. It says estrogen affects the mood. Isn’t google God? Do I need to take down my altar?

It does affect mood. It just doesn’t always put you in a good one. Think of it more as testosterone=proactive mood while estrogen=reactive mood.

Here are some symptoms of high estrogen:

PMS
Migraines
Mood Swings
Depression
Unexplained Weight Gain
Fatigue Osteoporosis
Insomnia
Memory Loss
Acne
Hot Flashes
Thinning Hair
Irregular Periods Breast Tenderness
Miscarriage
Low Sex Drive
High Blood Pressure
Facial Hair
Inflammation

Seasonal Affective disorder is also linked to estrogen (80% of sufferers are women), though it’s not clear whether the problem is too much, too little, or other hormone imbalances translating as SAD through interactions with normal estrogen levels.

Menopausal symptoms and depression are not necessarily caused by increased estrogen levels, but often by the lack of progesterone/testosterone to counter those levels. Estrogen levels tend to be higher these days than they used to be because of xenoestrogens in the environment, from petrochemicals and pesticides that mimic estrogen, to hormonally treated meat and poultry, and plant estrogens (soy is hella popular nowadays, even though it messes with your hormones–sometimes in a good way, sometimes not). It may be that we’ve completely fucked up our natural hormone balances and we’re just stuck guessing what it all means now.

Some symptoms of high testosterone in women:

“Women with high testosterone may experience an elevated libido and their high levels of testosterone may also cause an enlarged clitoris, which might be irreversible. High levels of testosterone can also disrupt a woman’s menstrual cycles, even causing them to stop completely.”

“High levels of testosterone can cause psychological effects that range from moodiness, depression, aggression, irritability and excitability. Also, in a study entitled “Gender differences in financial risk aversion and career choices are affected by testosterone,” and published in the August 24, 2009 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers at the University of Chicago showed that women with higher levels of testosterone take more risks and engage in more thrill-seeking behavior.”

Sounds like a cougar to me–high libido, thrill-seeking behavior, moodiness, aggression, loss of risk aversion.

Not in you, you little slut.

My own lack of shame notwithstanding, I fail to see how any woman who’s had a remotely healthy sex life for a decade or more would be ashamed of her libido.

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kis November 17, 2009 at 11:43

Did my comment disappear? WTF? Here it is again:

Thats not what I googled. It says estrogen affects the mood. Isn’t google God? Do I need to take down my altar?

It does affect mood. It just doesn’t always put you in a good one. Think of it more as testosterone=proactive mood while estrogen=reactive mood.

Here are some symptoms of high estrogen:

PMS
Migraines
Mood Swings
Depression
Unexplained Weight Gain
Fatigue Osteoporosis
Insomnia
Memory Loss
Acne
Hot Flashes
Thinning Hair
Irregular Periods Breast Tenderness
Miscarriage
Low Sex Drive
High Blood Pressure
Facial Hair
Inflammation

Seasonal Affective disorder is also linked to estrogen (80% of sufferers are women), though it’s not clear whether the problem is too much, too little, or other hormone imbalances translating as SAD through interactions with normal estrogen levels.

Menopausal symptoms and depression are not necessarily caused by increased estrogen levels, but often by the lack of progesterone/testosterone to counter those levels. Estrogen levels tend to be higher these days than they used to be because of xenoestrogens in the environment, from petrochemicals and pesticides that mimic estrogen, to hormonally treated meat and poultry, and plant estrogens (soy is hella popular nowadays, even though it messes with your hormones–sometimes in a good way, sometimes not). It may be that we’ve completely fucked up our natural hormone balances and we’re just stuck guessing what it all means now.

Some symptoms of high testosterone in women:

“Women with high testosterone may experience an elevated libido and their high levels of testosterone may also cause an enlarged clitoris, which might be irreversible. High levels of testosterone can also disrupt a woman’s menstrual cycles, even causing them to stop completely.”

“High levels of testosterone can cause psychological effects that range from moodiness, depression, aggression, irritability and excitability. Also, in a study entitled “Gender differences in financial risk aversion and career choices are affected by testosterone,” and published in the August 24, 2009 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers at the University of Chicago showed that women with higher levels of testosterone take more risks and engage in more thrill-seeking behavior.”

Sounds like a cougar to me–high libido, thrill-seeking behavior, moodiness, aggression, loss of risk aversion.

Not in you, you little slut.

My own lack of shame notwithstanding, I fail to see how any woman who’s had a remotely healthy sex life for a decade or more would be ashamed of her libido.

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chic noir November 17, 2009 at 15:22

Chuck clarence:
i think i just witnessed you gaming chic noir and kis…good job.

I think you’re right and notice he did it without ahole game. I notice some men become jealous when the males and females expressions e-affection for one another on the game sites. but it’s perfectly normal for males and females to be attracted to one another even online.

I think e-fliritng gives guys a chance to test some of their game techniques and exposes them to the types of women they will meet offline.

Doug1
kis–
You’re a fun character kis.
How did you discover this sphere?

Kis my dear kis, do not fall under doug 1’s spell. We call him number one alpha for a reason. He currently has about 4 women under his spell at this very moment.

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kis November 17, 2009 at 15:51

I think guys who are supposed to like lesbians is mostly from movies. I mean it doesn’t make sense. If I am gonna have a threesome it is gonna be with 2 straight chicks who both want me. Why would I want to share either with some lesbo?

There’s nothing wrong with sharing. As far as I’m concerned, if there are three people in bed together, everybody should play with each other. It’s only polite. Not that I’ve, you know, done that, mostly because the odds of finding three people who all really and for true and not just faking it want to play together are pretty slim.

And guys aren’t supposed to like lesbians–they’re supposed to like “lez pretend”. You know, those girls who put on a girl on girl show but really just need the “right guy with the right dick” to bring them back to boyville.

“I kissed a girl and I liked it, makes sense cause I’m a lesbian…” wouldn’t have quite as broad an appeal as Katy Perry’s original lyrics, no?

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Jabherwochie November 18, 2009 at 06:06

@Kis-

Ah. So estrogen causes the facial hair in women over 30. That clears that up. You know a lot about hormones. Does that have to do with you researching you bi-ness or something, or did you just pick it up as a normal part of being a female? Female hormone issues defeinantly seem more complex than males.

“My own lack of shame notwithstanding, I fail to see how any woman who’s had a remotely healthy sex life for a decade or more would be ashamed of her libido.”

You and your open minded ways. I live in the bible belt. Their is a lot of unneccesary cultural shame that goes along with sex traditionally (a lot less sense the early 1990′s though, we’ve pretty much caught up with the slut culture of the rest of the country). However, in the past, girls brought up to be chaste, yes, they would have mixed feelings when their gina tingles, especially for men they know aren’t husband material. They would therefore experience shame and guilt. I know you don’t suffer from something I tend to find a lot of women suffer from, that is, they assume everyone else thinks and feels essentially the same way they do. Not only do peoples emotions very in similiar circumstances, but thought processes are often so different that entirely different conclusions can be reached in similiar circumstances. That is why science is so important. It systemizes the use of logic into a easy to follow, step by step procedure that infers reality in the least biased way possible.
Plenty people attach shame to feelings of sexuality, or at least used to. Hell, that shame and guilt is what drives the rush of naughty sex often times. I think you’re just being argumentative because you don’t want women to feel shame or guilt ever. You can think about that while you sit in detention.

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Ray Sawhill November 18, 2009 at 08:31

Lots of good points in the posting. Haven’t read all the comments, so I’m winging it here, hoping I’m not repeating what someone else has said.

I think there may be some confusion about the term “sexual peak.” Women are clearly at their physically ripest from, say, 15-21. And during those years they show off and tease like mad. They’re trying to attract attention, mates, caretakers, etc. Practically speaking, often the sex itself doesn’t mean that much to them. (Exceptions allowed for.) They often like the tease (the clothes, the dancing, the flirting, the kissing) a lot better than the fucking. So if that’s what you mean by “sexual peak,” you’ve definitely got a point.

But there’s another possible meaning, which has to do with consciousness. Young kids and young adults more mostly just blindly acting out. What they do isn’t under a lot of control. They’re just doing it and hoping it’ll work out somehow. You get to be over 30 (or 40, or 50 …) and you do things more reflectively, more deliberately. You’re more informed, and a little experience and reflection goes into your choices and behaviors.

So what often happens with women is a change in their experience of sex. They’re beginning to dry up physically, but they’re ‘way more aware of what they’re doing, and what they’re after. And that can be its own “sexual peak.”

For instance: imagine a 40ish woman. She’s one of the lucky ones: As a 20 year old, she showed the goodies off, landed a dude, popped a couple of kids, got the house … But did she really enjoy it, or was she just acting out her biological drives?

A lot of the time women are driven by anxiety, so however sexed-up and drunk and silly young gals can get, they’re basically anxious about whether their lives will work out as they hope. They’re hoping you (or someone) will like them enough to enable them to have the life they want.

But by, say, 45, a lot of these anxieties are things of the past. She’s got a passable hubby or not. She’s had the kids or not. The house, etc. So her head is clearer. And of course she’s had the experience. What’s life about now? One possible answer: pleasure, exploring sensuality, dropping into the moment, being desired, the raw pleasure of humping …

And so women in their 30s and older are often able to devote themselves to sexual pleasure in a conscious, deliberate, and aware way that younger women (blinded by the need to hook a partner and, usually, reproduce) aren’t. When these gals talk about how they’ve achieved a sexual peak, they aren’t talking about being physically at their ripest — they’re usually painfully aware that their bloom is fading. They’re talking about their own enjoyment, their feelings of being awake and alert and conscious, their new-found appreciation for the joys of humping …

Some cultures allow for this progression, btw. 15-20 year old gals are expected to be out of control teases. That’s followed by the wife-mommy years, up to 40ish. Then they’ve got a decade or two to explore being an awake, conscious, alert, fullblown woman, whether that means with the hubby (often not, as he’s often tired of her by then), or with lovers.

Takeaway: The “sexual peak” that women are often said to experience in their 30s or later (I’ve got one gal friend who’s in her mid-50s who’s genuinely going through a kind of sexual awakening) is genuine. It just doesn’t have to do with physical bloom, it has to do with mental-emotional preparedness and maturity.

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Gunslingergregi November 18, 2009 at 08:54

”””””””And guys aren’t supposed to like lesbians–they’re supposed to like “lez pretend”. You know, those girls who put on a girl on girl show but really just need the “right guy with the right dick” to bring them back to boyville.””””

Ahh yes the challenge of conversion I suppose that might be part of some answer. I’d rather convert whores though at least ya know they like dick more or less he he he

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Jabherwochie November 18, 2009 at 11:13

“It just doesn’t have to do with physical bloom, it has to do with mental-emotional preparedness and maturity.”

If this is true, and it makes a lot of sense to me, I find it sad that they have so many emotional hang-ups that they can’t fully enjoy sex until they reach 30 or higher in age. Women are supposed to mature faster than men anyways. I guess it goes back to sex generally being more a mechanical thing for males, and more an emotional/psychological thing for females. I understand why it might be that way from and evo-psych perspective, but I still think its just another sign women are too driven by emotions and instincts, especially when young, and generally refuse to look at things in the broader context, mainly the context of long term planning and consequences, and secondly, the context of science, and when scientific facts are not part of their culture, then tradition, which is often a time proven example of beneficial behavior. It’s like they have no rules to follow. No script to lead their lives beyond transitory emotional responses. It must be feightening and confusing for some women. I see why they are often neurotic.

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21Guns November 18, 2009 at 11:45

Jabherwochie -

The thing is, many if not most women know, without being explicity told, that having too much sexual experience while they’re young lowers their Sexual Market Value. This can be a terrible problem if her goal is to someday marry a good man and have children. I don’t know if this knowledge is instinctive, or picked up subliminally from our culture, but I know from experience that it’s a very, very powerful force. Hell, I didn’t even want to get married and have children, and even *I* knew that slutting around would be a bad idea. I knew, logically, that as long as I took precautions there wouldn’t be any physical risks, but the social and emotional consequences of liscentious behavior were scary enough for me to keep my legs closed through most of my early 20′s.

As far as maturity goes, women may mature faster than men physically, but emotionally I don’t think we can even be measured on the same scale. There’s just too many social and biological differences.

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Jabherwochie November 18, 2009 at 12:26

“The thing is, many if not most women know, without being explicity told, that having too much sexual experience while they’re young lowers their Sexual Market Value. This can be a terrible problem if her goal is to someday marry a good man and have children. I don’t know if this knowledge is instinctive, or picked up subliminally from our culture, but I know from experience that it’s a very, very powerful force. Hell, I didn’t even want to get married and have children, and even *I* knew that slutting around would be a bad idea. ”

But there is no reason to limit the choice to slutting around or being a prude. What about finding a nice guy to date, and explore your sexuality in a monogamous relationship? The answer in my mind is female hypergamy. This is the main problem that exacerbates the gender wars. Women want perfection and have been taught never to settle. They have been taught they deserve a perfect mate. They have been taught that they are worth it. Well, men want a harem of 16 year old virgins, but we are taught to settle for one life time partner, even when that life time partner can unilaterally end the marriage and take our children from us. Why are men the only ones who have to compromise? Hell, its not even compromising if one side makes all the concessions. Why are men the only ones who have to sacrifice their desires to account for the desires of females? We have extended adolescence far beyond what is rational for both sexes, but I believe it is females waiting too long for Mr. Right that places both sexes in this extended adolescent phase. Women wanting it all, in the long run, simply creates men who want nothing to do with them, and women who end up with nothing. Pair bonding was much more effective when you grew up a little together. Matured together. Discovered mutual interests together. You were chaste in your early twenties. Good for you. Biologically and psychologically, in my opinion, during that time you should have been married to your high school sweet heart. Then men out in the wide world aren’t any better than the men you grew up with. Put the fantasy on the shelf with your dolls and Disney movies where it belongs. Don’t try to make life long commitments when your sexual value is declining. Don’t try to sell a house when the market is crashing. I don’t know. I have a lot of resentment from female rejection. I was nice guy. If I’m expected to finish last, I’m just not going to participate in the race. The finish line is an illusion anyways. I know that now.

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Jabherwochie November 18, 2009 at 12:31

“The” men out in the wide world…

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Jabherwochie November 18, 2009 at 12:34

Don’t take that as a poor ole me story, because I’ve ended up in a good position, but there is no excuse for how much I had to suffer to get here, and womens suffering now will not have any affect on me, just as my suffering then had no affect on them. The value of a man goes up as the value of a women declines. The rules were set up to account for this. Women did away witht the rules, and will now have to suffer the realities of a playing field tipped the other way.

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21Guns November 18, 2009 at 13:13

But there is no reason to limit the choice to slutting around or being a prude. What about finding a nice guy to date, and explore your sexuality in a monogamous relationship?

That was actually what I ended up doing, but it took a few years to figure out how to get there.

My problem was that when I was in my early 20′s, I was A MESS. Bad skin, bad hair, scary personality, not much of a figure, no fashion sense, no social skills, and not even a decent job. The dudes my age wouldn’t look at me, and I don’t even blame them. If I were them, I wouldn’t have looked at me either. That’s how messed up I was.

Besides, I was always worried that a nice guy would want more of a commitment than I was ready to give, and I was afriad of commitments. So yeah, I could have just given it up to random assholes, but that would have been slutting around, which I knew would have a negative effect on me in the long run.

Things finally clicked when I discoverd men in their 40′s, or they discovered me. These guys were all divorced with children, set in their careers, and not interested in marrying again. Yet they appreciated me, because instead of seeing all my many flaws, they saw a horny 20-something with no baggage.

So I had a series of casual, monogamous relationships, and along the way I gained confidence, learned how to take better care of myself, dress better, get some meds for my mood swings, and just generally loosen up and enjoy life. That continued until I ended up in my current relationship.

The really bizarre thing is, at the advanced age of 41, I’ve suddenly got 20-something year old dudes hitting on me. Go figure.

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Arbitrary November 18, 2009 at 13:23

Those 20-something dudes are the young nice guys who aren’t getting anything from the girls their own age. They’ve discovered that there are 40-somethings willing to put out to their demographic, and have decided that that is better than nothing.

If you want it, I suggest you take full advantage of the situation; it will probably make both of you happier for it. Just understand that their initial interest isn’t some special triumph on your part, but rather an aspect of the choices made by younger women.

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21Guns November 18, 2009 at 13:26

LOL! Believe me, if I wasn’t in a relationship I’d be the cougar’s cougar right about now. I don’t have any illusions about myself, but given my past I just thing the whole thing is hilarious.

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anoukange November 18, 2009 at 16:40

“When you get older, whether you’re a man or woman, your senses dull a bit. This isn’t all bad, because life can be very painful, but I think a lot of people forget how it feels to be an adolescent, when your desires are as bright as the morning sun. The colors are brighter, the smells sharper, and sounds are clearer. Everything is more present and immediate, including desire”

Welmer:
Sorry to hear that for you. I have had much different experiences than you and things have gotten brighter, more sensual and sex drive is the same (high) if not higher. hmmmm…I guess it just depends on who you ask, eh?

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Arbitrary November 18, 2009 at 17:13

anoukange, I expect that your belief here is due to the human tendency to view recent events with much greater clarity than events further in the past; your perceptions now are clearer than your memories of the past, so you assume that your perceptions now are clearer than your perceptions were in the past.

It is a human universal that sense acuity dulls with age, beyond some point.

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anoukange November 18, 2009 at 17:53

Arbitrary:
While what you write is not unfounded, I’m sure, I still disagree on a personal level. The brain is a muscle and you can actually teach it to improve itself against age. Now, age will eventually win but if one has been investing a lot in good health and heightened senses and awareness then there could be a decade or so of cruising this that is in the “older years” of a life and not in the younger years. The only thing I have contributing directly (that I’m aware of) to my memory of the past and future is my occassional indulgence in the smoking of herb. If a person is tactile then they’re tactile. That is one “sense” that I feel doesn’t dull out.

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Kathy Farrelly November 18, 2009 at 22:20

I tend to agree with anoukange, here. I myself am a very tactile person, and I don’t believe that “sense” has dulled either. I work out for an hour everyday (at home) and eat healthy food, so that helps a lot, too.
I have always enjoyed sex with my wonderful husband whom I love very much.. Even after 14 years of marriage my interest has not waned. Incidentally, I never had multiple orgasms until I married my 2nd husband.
I do believe that the most powerful sex organ is the brain.

But yep, in the end age will win out. That’s why I’m making hay while the sun shines :)

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kis November 19, 2009 at 00:17

Ah. So estrogen causes the facial hair in women over 30. That clears that up. You know a lot about hormones. Does that have to do with you researching you bi-ness or something, or did you just pick it up as a normal part of being a female? Female hormone issues defeinantly seem more complex than males.

Ahhh, but too much testosterone also causes hirsutism in women. And several other symptoms of too much estrogen are identical to symptoms of too much testosterone. That’s just how complicated we wimminfolk are.

As for your question, I had some hormone imbalances before I first got pregnant–I was actually in the early stages of lactation a year before I ever conceived (don’t laugh, I mean it). Got a bunch of tests done, did some research. Figured out why my boobs were malfunctioning, and a lot of other neat stuff, too.

In our modern world, there’s a ton of estrogen everywhere. There are aggressive xenoestrogens in pesticides, meat and poultry, and petrochemicals, and natural estrogens in things like soy (if a man wants boobs, he just has to eat a buttload of tofu), and estrogen galore in birth control pills.

The problem is, you can have extremely elevated estrogen and have no symptoms–as long as other hormones are also elevated to balance it out. There are tons of hormones responsible for female sexual function–estrogen, testosterone, prolactin, oxytocin, thyroid hormones, just off the top of my head. Some inhibit sexual function, some increase it, others team up (or don’t if there’s an imbalance) to get the job done.

I can only go by my own experience in the great testosterone/estrogen debate. I tried many forms of hormonal birth control when I was younger in order to find one that worked and didn’t mess me up. The ones with higher estrogen to androgen ratios killed my sex drive. The ones with lots of androgens made me a fiend. The high estrogen ones made me weepy and passive. The high androgen ones made me assertive and ambitious. This tells me that male hormones make women (or me, anyway) horny and assertive, and possibly assertive about their horniness.

Hell, that shame and guilt is what drives the rush of naughty sex often times. I think you’re just being argumentative because you don’t want women to feel shame or guilt ever. You can think about that while you sit in detention.

I would guess that some of those shame-filled girls, once they were 35-45 y/o women who had likely had sex within marriage(s), would have shed some of those internalized guilt-mechanisms. They are also at a time in their life where it’s now or never–and they don’t have to worry about how their decisions will impact their future to the same degree young women would.

If this is true, and it makes a lot of sense to me, I find it sad that they have so many emotional hang-ups that they can’t fully enjoy sex until they reach 30 or higher in age.

That’s so totally not me! But you all knew that already, didn’t you? LOL

Things finally clicked when I discoverd men in their 40’s, or they discovered me. These guys were all divorced with children, set in their careers, and not interested in marrying again. Yet they appreciated me, because instead of seeing all my many flaws, they saw a horny 20-something with no baggage.

Bahaha! That’s exactly what my ex has now. Well, except he’s in his mid-fifties.

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Jabherwochie November 19, 2009 at 08:30

“The brain is a muscle and you can actually teach it to improve itself against age.”

The brain begins to decline memory wise around 32. Its peak processing speed/reflexes is around the age of 20. Your senses begin to dull immediately after birth pretty much, but then this process slows at around 20 and probably remain pretty steady up until 50 or 60 or later. So you do probably have imperceptably less sensory abilities then you had when you were an older teenager, but not a young child.

“Everyone requires a certain minimum amount of stimulation before a sensation is perceived. This minimum level is called the threshold. Aging increases this threshold, so the amount of sensory input needed to be aware of the sensation becomes greater. Changes in the body part related to the sensation account for most of the other sensation changes.”

“Processing speed
Mental processing and reaction time become slower with age. This slowing of information processing speed actually begins in young adulthood (the late 20s), although imperceptibly at first. By the time people are past 60 or older (depending on the individual), they will generally take longer to perform mental tasks than younger people.”

“Memory
Memory is a complex function that has been divided into different types. Only some of these are affected by age. Difficulties that occur with memory are usually small and vary widely from person to person, making generalizations difficult. ”

“Attention
Attention is necessary for information to be taken in to begin with. Attention is the ability to focus on certain bits of information and to decide whether and how much to process it further. It’s possible to pay attention to only a limited amount of information at any one time. Certain changes in attentional ability have been reported with older age.

Some researchers have found that many older adults have increasing difficulty distinguishing between information that is relevant and information that is irrelevant to a particular task. They have difficulty focusing only on the necessary information, and are susceptible to becoming distracted. This may slow down the speed of performing a mental task and may compromise accuracy.

Some researchers have proposed that these attentional difficulties may be the result of a general overall slowing of information processing that has been observed as people age. ”

“Some researchers postulate that the problem with working memory is related to reduced speed of information processing, which reduces the efficiency of working memory. ”

“In general, memory tasks that are complex and require manipulating a lot of new information quickly become more difficult with age. Facts, names, and events that are not often accessed may become more difficult to retrieve from memory. However, knowledge that has been accumulated over a lifetime, which is repeatedly accessed and expanded, is generally retained. Well-practiced skills and abilities remain intact. And vocabulary usually continues to increase throughout life. ”

“Fluid and crystallized intelligence
Different aspects of cognition are affected in various ways over time. One measure of cognitive ability is intelligence. A commonly-used system of categorizing intelligence is into “fluid” and “crystallized” intelligence.

Fluid intelligence (also called “native mental ability”) is the information processing system. It refers to the ability to think and reason. It includes the speed with which information can be analyzed, and also includes attention and memory capacity.

Crystallized intelligence is accumulated information and vocabulary acquired from school and everyday life. It also encompasses the application of skills and knowledge to solving problems.

Many studies have shown that fluid intelligence is more likely to decline with age than crystallized intelligence. In fact, crystallized intelligence may continue to improve with age. Many people continue to gain expertise and skills in particular areas throughout life.

It is theorized that much of the cognitive decline with age can be traced back to deficits in the information processing system (fluid intelligence). Tasks that use well-practiced skills or familiar information are generally not affected by age. However, complex tasks that require taking in new information and analyzing it may become more difficult. Many researchers attribute this to deficits that occur in attention, speed of processing, and memory. ”

Exceptions do abound, and you may be one, but you would be an outlier, but most likely, your perceptions being more pronounced, even your tactile ones, is just an illusion. A cognitive bias. Your brain has more crytalized memories to color your perceptions, but your actual perceptions are still dulled. So, what you infer you are experiencing is a real event, it seems brighter and more vivid, but that event is still just an illusion. Sorry. The brain is not a good judge of reality. The question is, is an illusion not just as rewarding as the real thing?

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jz November 19, 2009 at 09:28

what ray sawhill stated.

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Jabherwochie November 19, 2009 at 12:23

I thought this was appropriate to my above conclusion.

“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.” — Albert Einstein

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anoukange November 19, 2009 at 14:38

Jabherwochie:
Well hot damn, where to I send the check for this mini lesson? I just took a college course. Thanks for the info. Well founded and re-stated here. At the end of the day, it does vary too much for a mass generalization. But mass generalization is what ends up being evaluated and say la vie!

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Lupo November 19, 2009 at 16:14

I think you’re wrong here, trying to turn this into some kind of psychological power trip. Women really are a lot sluttier/easier/higher sexed at 30. Part of it probably is fully biological, and there is a very good evo-bio reason for it. It’s their last chance to get some viable sperm. At 20, she has her pick of any man in the world. At 30-35, she doesn’t, and so being easier makes it more likely her rotting eggs will get fertilized. For all this natural selection “they want alpha sperm” shit you guys spout, the fact of the matter is, at 30-35, they have very little pricing power in the sexual market. Them making themselves easier is their way of dealing with their decline in value.
There is also the matter that by 30, a woman has few girlish illusions, and has probably been rode hard and put away wet any number of times. In America in particular, an average 34 year old woman has the mental furniture of a jaded gay dude.

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Chuck November 19, 2009 at 17:16

Lupo,

Many commenters have said the same thing. To be honest, it seems like a very viable argument, one that I sadly didn’t think of when writing this post. I forgot the whole notion of women seeking investment from their mates in order to procreate. If a woman is more fertile and young, she has to be more discerning in her choice of mate. She has the choice, why not maximize the characteristics chosen? I buy that argument.

My only questions to that would be, does this imply that less attractive women are also hornier than more attractive ones across similar ages? If we have two 25 year olds, will the less physically attractive one (assuming we can glean that from her genetic profile) be hornier in an effort to procure mates?

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kis November 20, 2009 at 00:25

“My only questions to that would be, does this imply that less attractive women are also hornier than more attractive ones across similar ages? If we have two 25 year olds, will the less physically attractive one (assuming we can glean that from her genetic profile) be hornier in an effort to procure mates?”

I’d guess they’re no hornier, but act sluttier. Other indicators like shyness/social awkwardness being equal, the less attention they receive from men, the more likely they are to give the impression that they will put out. There were plenty of fat/unattractive girls in highschool that were slutty when I was a young woman. The pretty ones didn’t have to be slutty–they got regular sex from their boyfriends and lots of ego-stroking from other males.

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Gx1080 November 20, 2009 at 05:37

Simple Law of Supply and Demand. At not being wanted by males, ugly, fat and/or old women lower their standards and at being desperate they latch on anything. The most pathetic part is that they actually buy and spread that “Sexual Peak” bullshit so they can’t be faced with the fact that they are not wanted by males. LOL.

Is just as simple as that.

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Kathy Farrelly November 20, 2009 at 05:45

Substantiating links please GX ;)

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sdud January 9, 2010 at 20:17

I am a thirty one almost thirty two year old female that previously had a horrid sex drive. My husband and I can no longer have children by choice, we have three. I want no children. One day, I become overly horny meaning I was not in control of myself because my desire was unearthy. I began having multiple orgasms and I am officially horny all of the time, out of control horny. Something is up that is all I kn0w.

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Tom January 10, 2010 at 09:43

“Widespread tribal warfare is also a myth.”

LOL.

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Desi January 18, 2010 at 07:58

Women have 2 peaks, and neither are in their 20s.

One is during puberty, the other when they are much older and their testosterone levels rise.

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Desi January 18, 2010 at 07:59

Also, at any age, if you are having quality sex, it will make you want to have more. Like the above poster who spoke of her multiple orgasmic experience. It will do that to you.

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ORgasmo February 11, 2010 at 23:51

Now you’re a man, a man man man. Now you’re a man a man man man. Go watch Orgasmo, idiot. And let women be as free with their sexuality as they want to without putting a name on it. You SLUT!

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alek August 12, 2010 at 14:25

“ why throw a wrench in the system by making horniness levels or desire to copulate levels incongruent between the sexes and less conducive to reproduction?”

Precisely the reason. Its actually a meme created to lower reproduction. Our society (whether its group conciousness, evolution or neo-maltusians) has decided that we have too much population, so its self-sabotaging.

So it is spreading this meme, precisely to lower reproduction, by having women being the easiest when they’re the least fertile. Its also with how this is so glorified in hollywood and the media. Its no accident. Society wants to promote this meme really badly, because its a great meme at reducing the population and reproduction among lower-class folks.

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Anonymous October 3, 2010 at 14:48

this guy sounds like a complete asshole to me. calling women sluts and making inflamed commentary on their sex drive, and suggesting that because a woman has sex, I suppose with a man she’s not married to in her 40′s she’s perverse. WHAT THE FUCK?

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chuckhater October 3, 2010 at 14:52

testing.

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chuckhater October 3, 2010 at 15:03

It’s fine with me that you disagree with the sexual peak myth but to suggest that women are sluts or sexually perverse because they act on a natural urge is verging on misogynistic. You further go on to say that women are less desirable as they age and because of this we hate younger women. Reading this made my head want to explode. You make an argument from a strongly masculine point of view and to me it screams of an anti-women’s movement attitude. If you’re going to publish something the least you could do is make it sound educated and leave out the inflamed language. I suppose what bothers me most is that some women actually agreed with you…and not on the sexual peak myth. Jesus!

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chuckhater October 3, 2010 at 15:22

Also, whether a woman wants to fuck a little or a lot it IS a biological urge.

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Mel November 27, 2010 at 23:33

As a 34 year old woman, I can tell you that over the past several months my body had gone through a change that is beyond my control. I am an absolute horn dog. Now I don’t have the urge to cheat on my older husband, but no he can’t keep up with my new insatiable appetite. I have however filled up my toy box. As a matter of fact, I found your article while searching for what the hell is wrong with me. While I don’t understand it, there is suddenly a dramatic, uncontrolable change in my sexual desire.

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Karen December 6, 2010 at 14:29

Well I don’t hate younger women, infact I don’t really pay attention to age as far as competition. Age doesn’t matter anymore when it comes to the dating game. At least as far as I have noticed. So to say older women HATE HATE HATE younger women, is simply a generalization. I know what I want and what I’m after, either the guy will be interested or he won’t, regardless of my age. And truth be told, whether it was me ending an 8 year relationship that was sexless or the myth of turning 30, I have felt since about the age of 29 like I couldn’t shut off this new found drive. I’m hoping it is myth and I have an incredibly high sex drive. I want to stay like this, because I love the drive. It’s awesome. Perhaps it’s also women just not feeling as insecure about themselves as they get older. I remember being in my 20s and being completely insecure about everything. That could be less now for the 20 year olds out there, but that might be another reason that this seems like a peak. Women seem to have more of a sense of self.

And I’m only 33…so hoping it just gets worse the older I get. ;)

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Karen December 6, 2010 at 14:29

Well I don’t hate younger women, infact I don’t really pay attention to age as far as competition. Age doesn’t matter anymore when it comes to the dating game. At least as far as I have noticed. So to say older women HATE HATE HATE younger women, is simply a generalization. I know what I want and what I’m after, either the guy will be interested or he won’t, regardless of my age. And truth be told, whether it was me ending an 8 year relationship that was sexless or the myth of turning 30, I have felt since about the age of 29 like I couldn’t shut off this new found drive. I’m hoping it is myth and I have an incredibly high sex drive. I want to stay like this, because I love the drive. It’s awesome. Perhaps it’s also women just not feeling as insecure about themselves as they get older. I remember being in my 20s and being completely insecure about everything. That could be less now for the 20 year olds out there, but that might be another reason that this seems like a peak. Women seem to have more of a sense of self.

And I’m only 33…so hoping it just gets worse the older I get. ;)

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Anonymous March 22, 2011 at 14:39

The truth is that on average a man will peak around the ages of 18-25; and a woman will peak around 30. Leave it at that… of course that isn’t true for everyone but its on average.

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Sally Wimple May 10, 2011 at 19:55

Piss off arrogant male. Oh, poor young beautiful women, having their un-earned power usurped by slutty cougars. Sexual peak is real. A girl goes from submitting to sex as required to desiring it, over a 10 year course of time. It’s not excusing slutty behavior in women, it’s women not giving a shit what you think in the face of their horniness. It’s having that horniness for the first time without obligation;without feeling as though you must be horny cause some guy wants to fuck you. It’s a literal change in feeling, thought and action. Never thinking about sex unless it’s required or immediate, to thinking about sex when the wind changes and blows just right across the seam if your jeans. God bless your very very very obvious youth, and the fact that you’ve got a penis instead of a twat, cause the world would be a lot more complicated and less tritely explained if you were part of the bleeder crowd.
Fucking dickhead.

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Cougar May 17, 2011 at 15:01

Ha, ha, ha, ha….older women hate younger women…ha, ha, ah…I’m a cougar, milf…I’ve been called them both…I like cougar. Anyway, I find all men hot, but the young ones are hornier and they match me. What can I say. I also love feel for young women (I have two daughters and I remember what it is like to be nubile and preyed upon constantly), but regarding my own cougarliness it works out well. And the only people who have a problem with it are young women and older men (both of whom are left out of this perfect equation we’ve found ourselves in), and it is these folks who hate, hate, hate us sexy older women and younger men simply (I guess) because they’re jealous of what we’ve got.

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almost a cougar May 19, 2011 at 07:40

What a bunch of B.S. Where do they get all this crap about wanting power & sticking it to the men? It sounds like a lot of vindictive and insecure spouting to me. The only reason a woman would “pull” a younger man is performance. Men their own age do seem to pull a “sexual charlie horse” on them. The only reason she would “give in” to a younger man’s pursuit would be the same reason older men like younger women. They are just plain hot. Pure and simple.

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Anonymous June 1, 2011 at 11:48

I have to say as a 31 yr old female that my sex drive is higher than when I was 20. Not that is wasn’t high then, but I didn’t seek sex as much. When I was 20 I was perfectly fine with once a week or even two weeks. After that point I may have actively sought out A partner. At 31 I want it every day. 3x a day. I have WAY more sex now than I ever did in my early 20′s. I’m married btw. My husband is 13 years older than me and barley keeps up (he tries, bless him). As far as trying to “pull” a younger man as a power trip. That’s bs. It would depend entirely on what I was looking for. If I wanted a relationship I would seek someone my age or older. If I was just looking for a sexual partner I would seek a younger man with a higher sex drive. Doesn’t have anything to do with anything else.

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J June 20, 2011 at 14:09

Chuck I know this thread is years old and i don’t mean to be rude but you aren’t a 30yrold woman so you (understandably) aren’t able to KNOW the truth here. I have been in a long term relationship with my partner for years, and now suddenly I want to have sex twice as much as i used to. I am 29. My best friends who are the same age have all commented to me on their increased libido too. It feels strange, an increased libido outta nowhere! With a testosterone increase your sex drive increases. I have no desire for ‘social power’ or whatever else you’re accusing women generally of. I love my partner, I don’t want anyone else, I have nothing but love and respect for men, I just have a higher sex drive now. I hope you have read the last few posts from women who can actually speak from experience. I dont know you and i have no agenda here other than to share my experience to help you understand the 30yrold female sexuality. Cheating is heinous and rampant promiscuity for the hell of it isn’t wise. But it is pretty embarrassing for you to rant in an uninformed way. You’re welcome to ask me any questions if you want to know more. :)

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Angie H June 27, 2011 at 07:15

Speaking as a woman well into her 30s now, part of the increase in libido for me has been mental. As a mother of two who had her children at a younger age, I was simply too tired to think about sex. Now as my children’s needs are less physically demanding of me, I have more freedom to go out to places where other single people might be. Add to that, I had my tubes tied a couple of years back which has been a relief for me. I no longer worry that I will unexpectedly be pregnant and devoting 18 more years to raising another child. Trust me, even when I was in a monogamous relationship that alone increased my sexual desire.

For the record, I don’t hate younger women. I also don’t feel the need to compete with any woman, older or younger. A man who is interested in someone other than myself should actually be with someone else. There’s no need to compete for someone who doesn’t want you. I found a few of your statements to be based on your own myths rather than actual fact.

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Honesty August 14, 2011 at 19:41

Honestly women hate other women in general it has nothing to do with age or power it has to do with beauty and insecurity. Don’t! Try and make women feel bad about there age we were all young once and age gracefully… I think you are assuming a lot in this article judging it from a mans perspective on the female sexual world you have no experience talking about it. Stick to mens topics you obviously don’t understand womens at all.

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alex August 21, 2011 at 10:18

there could actually be truth to this “myth” as you call it, while woman are generally hornier when at there most fertile, women could be driven by an urge to have sex more without linking it to the fact that its not the actual act itself but that its there last years of being able to have one normally and healthily. e.g. “guess what miss, soon you won’t be able to have any more so get moving now”.

just an observation rather than an actual fact, as for men reaching it at 18? not likely but younger men do have more energy, but i don’t think that makes it there sexual peak. i’m no more or less hornier than I was at 18 and i’m now 33.

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carbonmaid August 29, 2011 at 21:45

I was having multiple orgasms in my late teens, early 20s and was always easy to have one. Now that I am 34 I take longer to climax and rarely am able to achieve a multiple unless I work on it myself during foreplay with a very patient lover.

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Angelos October 5, 2011 at 08:21

Below are some words from “The Naked Ape”, the book of the famous Zoologist Desmond Morris: “It is interesting that, if one measures sexual responsiveness in term of frequency of orgasm, the male is much quicker to reach the peak of performance than the female. Although males begin their sexual maturation process a year or so behind the girls, they nevertheless attain their orgasmic peak while they are still in their teens, whereas the girls do not reach theirs until their mid-twenties or even thirties. In fact, the female of our species has to reach the age of twenty-nine before she can match the orgasm rate of the fifteen-year-old male. Only 23 per cent of fifteen-year-old females will have experienced orgasm at all, and this figure has only risen to 53 per cent by the age of twenty. By thirty-five it is 90 per cent”

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jill November 18, 2011 at 22:57

This is so stupid. I’m 33 and wondering what is going on with my out of whack libido though I am sexually satisfied with a partner and in comes this f-wad who was supposedly taken advantage of back in his youth by an older woman. I want all women, regardless of age, to be sexually liberated. For a man to feel taken advantage of, he must be hyper-sensitive, because all I see in advertisements all the live long day is a bunch of breasts in my face from women of all ages asking guys of all ages to screw us with very little to offer reciprocally. Women over 30 don’t have it easy, but most of us don’t want anything worse for our younger sisters, what good does that do us? Most of them haven’t figured out what a man’s worth really is anyway. Seriously don’t know what the fuck you are trying to say. Let’s try to get along. Peace!

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Eff you. November 27, 2011 at 13:32

So much hatred toward women here. It’s like you don’t know that men are hotter when they’re younger, too. Or are you just attacking this myth while embracing the myth that men just get more attractive with age? Um, NO.
Also, it’s like you are unaware that you excuse the sluttiness of younger girls and choose to focus on the sluttiness of 30-year-old women. What world do you live in where 30-year-old women are generally less classy and respectable than the average 18-year-old? You are just paying attention to what you choose to pay attention to.
And, hating younger women? What a stupid generalization. This argument might work if no younger man ever preferred older women, but alas, that is hardly the case.
We live in a world where hot is hot, and being younger certainly does not guarantee attractiveness. If you are personally instantly attracted to a woman based on her age rather than her actual physical features (meaning she can have bucked teeth, severe acne, and an enormous hooked nose but as long as she’s young, you’re into it, and automatically don’t find an older woman nearly as attractive) there’s a word for you. It’s something like… predator.
I agree that it’s a myth, but give me a break. It’s like you wrote this sitting in a rape van while trying to justify how you leer at 16-year-olds. You can’t attack one myth for being based on a lack of evidence while throwing half-formed hypotheses out like facts and expect it to go unnoticed. If anything, the myth serves men, who age just as poorly as women but also become more and more lousy in bed after their “sexual peak.”

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Melanie December 4, 2011 at 23:27

While I was in university, I distinctly remember reading about this and that it was determined that men sexually peaked at 18, it said that women peaked in their late 30s – (age 38 was mentioned – not early 30s as so many have said). This of course varies by the individual and genetics. This was not based on desire for sex, but on ability and frequency to orgasm. Based on my life so far, this has been true. Although I am not quite at my ‘peak’ yet, my ability to reach orgasm has improved over the years. This may come with experience, however.

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Horny People December 11, 2011 at 14:10

Have any of you really noticed that teenaged girls are just as horny as 30 plus women? I also notice that 18 men are horny but dont know what to do they just hit it n quit it when 30 plus men take their time to enjoy it and the older we get the better sex gets for both parties. The only thing is we are human and we dont all work the same. Some are prude some are not. Some dont get it up, or for women some are not horny lol. But we are all DIFFERENT period. All I know is when I was 18 I was crazy horny and in my 20′s I was horny and now in my 30′s I’m still horny :) hopefully my 40′s and on will be the same :) I enjoy my sexuality.

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neuterthehomos December 11, 2011 at 16:19

The 30s isn’t that old. Both men & women are in their best both physically & sexually when they’re 18 to 35 years old. I don’t believe the sexual peak myth because as people get older, they have more medical problems which also reduce libido. Physically libido is higher in 20s, but in 30s when you’re married, you have more time for sex whereas if you’re in teens or early 20s & unmarried, you often don’t have some1 in life. I’ll say that for most people, sex does become boring in a marriage because couples know what to expect which also debunks sex peak myth of older women.

With cougars, if a man has problems getting sex with women his age, then an easy thing to do is have relationship with women old enough to be his mom or pay a prostitute. This wouldn’t be the case for Ashton Kutcher but the fact that Ashton Kutcher is getting divorced & if the allegation is true that Ashton Kutcher had affairs with young women while married to Demi Moore, then it further debunks sex peak myth. Old decrepit men look like old men, but the problem is that old women also look like old men which debunks sex peak myth.

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Jane December 18, 2011 at 14:03

Even if it is just about women being more comfortable sexually (and it makes sense that it would take them an extra 10+ years than it does men) doesn’t that still make the myth true? I.e., doesn’t that still mean that women do actually hit a peak at their 30s?

As someone turning 30 tomorrow, I’m honestly starting to feel it (well, have been the last 6 months or so). I’m sure it is just because I’m more comfortable with myself, my body and sex in general, but it’s still true, and it’s kinda scary how much more I want it than my husband who used to try for it several times a day early in our marriage.

Besides, I’d always heard that we’re peaked physically (both men and women) around our 30s, so it still kinda makes sense.

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neuterthehomos December 25, 2011 at 14:38

Older people have a vested interest in saying they’re good or better @ something vs. when they’re younger. Just as a 30 something year old man or older would have an interest to say that he is better physically & sexually vs. when he was younger, an older woman would have the same interest to say they’re as good or better @ sex when they’re older vs. when they’re younger. Sex enhancement products such as Zestra to raise women’s libido mainly sell to women in their 40s & older just as Viagra mainly sells to men 40s & older. When you get older, you’re also more likely to have diseases which reduce libido like heart disease, etc. But again to repeat-the 30s is not that old because men & women are still strong physically though maybe less than in 20s.

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catherine December 28, 2011 at 14:13

I didn’t hit my peak till I was 40. I thought it was all a myth till then. I am convinced psychological factors are at work. I never had children. And now I am least likely to get any I am horny all the time.. Terrible.

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Anonymous January 1, 2012 at 14:01

Ok. While I want to agree with this author on a number of points, I think there are so many glaring untruths – or at least unsupported ideas – that I find myself questioning the whole article. First off, there is nothing to support the argument that women HATE HATE HATE younger women at all. I have a number of younger girl friends and I like them all thank you very much. The other mistaken assumption is that women and men are at equal comfort levels with sex. Many women are taught to be quite wary of their own sexuality and don’t “discover” it until they are in their 30s. This isn’t the case for many men. And while it might seem to make sense that men and women should hold the same level of sexual interest according to age for reproductive purposes, it is undeniably true that sexual desire happens much earlier for boys then girls. While most boys are shying away from the blackboard in their jogging pants, most girls are playing games like “MASH”, fantasizing about whether or not a certain boy is a good kisser or not. It doesn’t necessarily hold that reproduction must happen between two people of the same age. This is merely a social norm – not an evolutionary imperative. Thirdly, the assumption that sexual desire is only connected to reproduction may be a male-sexuality perspective. While increased sexual drive is a part of fertility, sexual drive is high at other times as well. While men can reproduce at any time, making the assumption that sex and reproduction are equal, women are only fertile for about 5 days a month, but do have sexual drives at other times throughout their cycles. Some women are most ‘horny’ during menstruation which is typically their LEAST fertile time of the month! For women (and probably for men as well) sexuality is deeply connected to a desire for pleasure, human connection, and, yes, reproduction. A woman who has become much more comfortable in their sexuality, may easily find themselves more interested in sex over-all and not for any reproductive imperative. During my so-called “genital prime”, I was nervous, unsure and embarrased about my sexuality. While getting pregnant may have been easier (by degrees – 1:4 each cycle vs. 1:5 each cycle) at 24 then now (33), my desire for reproduction was not based on my genitals, but on my life circumstances. Instability, for women, is a huge genetic turn-off for reproduction.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there are many more evolutionary and genetic variables than just gamete production for prime fertility. Women are possibly genetically predisposed to consider not just peak physical fertility, but also environmental viability. It is entirely possible for a woman to find herself at the age of 33 much more interested in sex than at 22 and with another 7-12 years of viable reproduction. The argument that women’s eggs dry up and fall out at the ripe old age of 35 is pure hogwash. A woman with a healthy body and a healthy husband can reproduce healthy children for another 5-10 years. It wasn’t all that long ago when women didn’t stop having children until they were in their forties – naturally. The progress hasn’t changed all that much since then.

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Lita January 1, 2012 at 21:15

I’ve never read your site before, just stumbled onto this page. But, clearly, you hate women.

Older women don’t hate younger women. That would be true only if women saw themselves through a very limited lens the media suggests – that a woman’s worth is only if she is sexually attractive to a man, and younger women are constantly shown as the people men are attracted to.

I don’t hate younger women & I’m 30. I think all people are lovely, and like them based on their characters or lack thereof.

Calling women sluts is obscene. You make gigantic leaps from writing about women expressing their sexuality, to calling them rude names.

Expressing yourself sexually is great! Too often, the concept of sex is all penetration & ignores a woman’s anatomy (the clitoris). All public talk of sex is about intercourse, which accounts for male orgasms, but rarely accounts for female orgasms.

Being expressive is a good thing! It helps people unlearn bad behavior, especially as most young people these days get their first taste of sexuality and sexual skill through porn – which is all faked on a woman’s end. Additionally, there are very poor attitudes regarding gender in most all popular pornography.

Hormonal birth control suppresses your libido. That’s another factor when it comes to women expressing sexual desire. I have noticed I feel much more sexual approaching 30 than I ever have, and it makes sense – a last push before you can’t conceive as easily.

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Sparklenshine January 6, 2012 at 06:09

“Older women hate hate hate younger women?” What rot. As an older woman (48) I can tell you first hand that that is simply horse shit. Intelligent people realise that aging is part of life. We’ve all had our youth – our “time in the sun” and it passes for each of us. It’s life.

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Kaitlyn February 5, 2012 at 21:08

I think you could have made your point in a less misogynistic manner. Then “Christian” who seems to be disagreeing with you still gives his point of view in a misogynistic way as well. Are men right now so threatened by sexual equality that they have to resort to name-calling? Y’all are just silly. Everybody is different and who really gives a damn anyway. I’m sure some women reach their sexual peak at different times than others and I’m sure it is the same for men. You don’t have to call sexually liberated women sluts in ANY context. Leave people alone and stop being so insulting.

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V February 9, 2012 at 05:18

Women are actually more fertile from 22-26. And I don’t know where you get that older women hate younger women. Most of my friends tend to be in their early 30s (hell, I have a friend who’s 60) and I’m 22. While I agree that it’s a myth that women reach their sexual peak at 30, I think your post completely drifts off when you begin your tantrum about sex being power and older women feeling powerless/hating younger women. This “sexual prime” myth comes from the fact that by their 30s women tend to be more aware of their needs and what feels good to them. They’re not afraid to ask for something sexually or let their partnet know that X or Y is/isn’t pleasurable for her. It’s nothing about 20 year-olds vs. 30 year-olds+. It’s about the confidence and wisdom that comes with age.

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Dave March 25, 2012 at 17:30

“More importantly, why would women be at their peaks and more horny when they were less fertile?”

This  does not correspond with the mechanics of natural selection. Natural selection is a process of survival. As women become LESS fertile in their 30s-40s, they (from an evolution perspective) must have A LOT more sex than a fertile 20 year old to bear children. 

The appropriate question is why cougars are much more sexually active than their younger constituents. Sure, I’ll grant your same-age peak theory credence. But since you mentioned natural selection, I must emphasize that “to sustain survival and yield offspring” a 40 year old must work MUCH, MUCH harder than a 20 year old.

Any abatement in fertility (due to age) must be compensated by more frequent sex. That leveraged by conventional social order (the cougar/MILF phenomenon) and you have a bunch of heated 30-40 year olds that are itching to get under the covers and … preferably with young, stamina-infused, prey that are not prone to have whiskey dick like their husbands.

Case closed. 

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s362012 April 30, 2012 at 16:04

I just started wanting, craving, and enjoying sex. Im 36 years old, married for 11years and mother of 2. I dont hang out at bars. I do not hate younger women. Is there another explanation to why I suddenly can’t get enough?

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Ponderance May 17, 2012 at 12:22

uh … pointing out the obvious – Any child who has 2 parents over 40 has how high of a chance of natural deformity. Any child whose parents split the difference and span that gap then means only ONE party is dealing with cprruption or collapse of DNA

A woman is far more horny and active at 35 and 40 than 22 because:
The end is near – go ahead, you bleed monthly for 20 or 30 years …
The end is near – if I want a baby I better get the hell on it
The end is near – I’ll be how old with a 20 yr old, cannot delay any longer!
The end is near – I now have the wealth to do this ALONE

Because the 20 yr olds crawl all over her like they NEVER DID when she was 20 herself.
Because she’s done her time screwing the undesireable flabby old “cant get it uppers”
Because she deserves to enjoy sex too
Because she is WORTH it after 25 years of crappy “marriage sex”
Because if she doesn’t do it NOW she never will

MEN mature and get smarter or more restrained as their desires have got them in shit over time – women on the other hand are born and IMMEDIATELY repressed and if you want to argue that – See vagina monologues for NAME – AGE and DATE of LAST USA CLITORECTOMY performed in the SIXTIES btw on a girl who – liked to masturbate ya never did THAT to an american BOY did ya? GIRLS are repressed; BOYS are encouraged – boys LEARN to think and have fear abuot their desires and this slows them down but WOMEN have to learn to toss off some repressions and have FUN – it takes the same 20 yrs as that other 20 yrs (of brainwashing) … the POINT you have a PROBLEM GRASPING is the IDEAL and there IS NO MYTH TO IT it is FACT … is the desire/kink levels of these 2 ages match well – a 40 yr old woman is LESS constrained and a 19 yr old male is full of exploration … the 40 yr old MAN is full of fear and repression and the 19 yr old girl is thus wise a better match …
HOWEVER – Chronophilia IS a recognized mental disorder which applies here as well … and SOME might argue it’s a female version of midlife crisis and “catching up” – the male’s way of keeping mommy and getting that sex with mommy fantasy … that it is the male need to prey upon those he feels he can hold power over, his latent desire to have sex with his daughter, and the female daddy complex.

Are you asking MEDICALY or PSYCHOLOGICALLY or are ya spewing some pop-psych BS yourself and hoping no one will notice you can’t get your medical sorted from your psychological?

3rd year Psychology + Sociology Double major honours level over here … what you got a JOURNALISM degree? lol They don’t even teach ya STATS dude it takes you four years to learn how to construct a sentance so your editor can jew you for a word count – yer funny – PATHETIC – but in a funny as you run them over sort of way.

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rich June 18, 2012 at 18:41

Let’s look at what we DO know. An 18 year old male is likely (in some circumstances) to go off to war. LOGICALLY then, he will need to get his seed out there pronto, and efficiently.

Women can’t have children past a certain age. LOGICALLY then, they will be at a maximum ‘sexual peak’ right up to the point when they are no longer reasonably fertile. This is often around 35 or so.

So these ‘myths’ have a definate grounding in reality. Not an ‘invention of feminist nutters’

Perhaps the confusing is arising over the definition of ‘peak’. (a confusion that also crops up when discussing peak strength in males/females).

‘Peak’ COULD mean an individual hitting a maximum, and then immediately declining (as is sometimes claimed for 18yr males, in a sexual sense)

Or ‘Peak’ could mean hitting a maximum, and then REMAINING there untill a later decline. Certainly, physical strength Peaks in this way between 25-35. (a 10 year period of ‘peak’). Who’s to say that men don’t peak sexually at 18, and then remain at that peak till much later.

Worth mentioning that overall strength in men lasts till 35, then slowly tapers off. And the same goes for fertility in women – a direct paralell.

Final Thought:
it could be argued that from 18-25 a male is being ‘tested’ by natural selection. He first passes on his seed, engages in risky/life threatening activities, and if he’s survived by 25, natural selection has done it’s job, and he’s proven to be a solid providor.

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SH June 20, 2012 at 19:18

Just in my own personal experience as a female, I wasn’t very interested in sex when I was younger (teenager-25ish) and now that I’m in my early thirties, sex is all I can think about so the “myth” is actually true in my case.

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d June 23, 2012 at 17:47

god, now that i’m 35 and ‘fading’ but more comfortable in my skin, know what pleases my body and also how to please a man as well as take full responsibility for my own reproduction, you tell me that i might as well go ahead and enter a nunnery because no one in their right mind would want to fuck anyone other than a 23 year old hard body.

what no one has mentioned: yeah, 18 year old boys might look good but they blow their load in 60 seconds and have no idea how to really please a woman, 20 year old nubile girls think hot sex is letting you ‘do stuff’ to them and blanch at the prospect of anything ‘dirty’ (anal sex) and fake orgasms more than anyone. oh, and something else: the hottest sex i ever had was with a man who had a small penis.

applying evolutionary medicine to sex and sexuality is completely fucked up because the rules are so bent they rarely apply anymore. this entire conversation feels like a thinly veiled excuse for appearance based sexism. thanks, guys. next topic i’ll start about how old guys can’t get their dicks hard.

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Laydee June 29, 2012 at 11:31

d.. I agree.

It’s amazing how many men discussed this back and forth, rarely acknowledging the female perspectives offered, preferring instead to reference the writings of other men.

Science is great, guys, but considering many of you can’t even figure out where a woman’s g-spot is, you should maybe ask real women when they peak instead of deciding amongst yourselves.

As for the author assuming that 30-somethings are trying to rationalize their sluttiness: You fucked one. Don’t be so bitter. I think it’s gross to be all verbal about dildos and giny tingles at work too, but I’ve also worked with men of all ages, and they say shit that would make Bob Sagat blush.

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Valerie July 17, 2012 at 14:40

OK, I have not finished reading your piece here, but I do plan to. I just had an overwhelming urge to begin my feedback immediately, which I should point out, is rare for me to do. First, I must say that you sound like a complete ignoramous, among other things. You also come across as very “angry” toward the subject(s) of this thread. I must know how ANYONE could have the balls to hold such an aggressive and confident standpoint on the utilization of and motivation behind a (series of) organs in which you do not even possess. You know nothing about the vagina, or its relationship to the body it is on/within, outside of what you’ve heard or seen. Who are you to make such abrasive assumptions? I’d LOVE to pick apart each illogical asinine suggestion you made, but that may lead to me spending much more time than I’d like to, on you. I will, however, correct some inaccuracies and identify a few things that I find inappropriate, to say the least. Your allegation that women in their late 20s-30s use the “myth” of “sexual prime” as an excuse to be “sluts” makes about as much sense as the generalization that ALL men are sluts ALL the time.. SO, even if your trash talk did hold water, you’d still be suggesting that women are “shady” about their sexual behavior a mere fraction of their lives in comparison to a male, who, generally speaking (since you are an advocate of making generalizations), are “shady” throughout the course of their entire lives. As far as your theory that older women use the “myth” as a means to gain “power” over younger women, and/or to lure in younger men, you are sorely mistaken. The only rationale I can fathom for your lack of understanding in this department is that you have never had the opportunity to experience an older woman, as a younger man. Had you been given such an opportunity, you may have found that any woman reaching/having reached her “peak” does not have the ability to simply turn this off, similar to flipping a light switch. I am only 27 years old, and I have feverishly searched the net for over a year now to find some sort of understanding/explanation for why I have had such an intense shift in my sexual desire/experience/perception, as a whole. I have been unable to identify anything at all that could contribute to this massive change in my sexual interest. I can tell you one thing for sure: my shifted interest/desire has zero involvement with anything “slutty” or cheating. My fixation is 100% on my vagina and my husbands penis, as well as both of our bodies/minds/beings, or, just mine alone. The erotic journey Ive been (unknowingly) set on, encompasses much more than “slutty” behavior. It is as close to a soulful journey Ive ever experience and it, I believe, has contributed to good amount of higher awareness on a macrocosmic level. Ive somehow, innately become a master of tantric sex and masturbation, before I even knew what all of that consisted of. I have been hyperaware of my body, my sensations, my energy, and its relationship to its surroundings, whether that be my husband, or some other external environmental element of my choosing. I am sorry that, for whatever reason, you have yet to even scratch the surface of such a life-altering, highly orgasmic (physically and mentally), and insanely energetic and spiritual phase of your life. Thats too bad.

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Deb August 24, 2012 at 13:05

I’m 46. I do not hate younger women by any means, and the idea of sleeping with younger men as revenge or because I want to exert power is absolutely ridiculous. I am very slim and trim and look like I’m in my 20′s, and therefore men my age don’t approach me. I like sex, am relaxed about it, and know what I like. All I want is someone enjoyable with energy, whether he’s 30 or my age, or older. The problem is, the older the men get, the less likely they are to be that way.

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Ridiculous September 27, 2012 at 09:07

Your valid points are rendered irrelevant by your ridiculous assumptions concerning women both young and old. Good luck in your relationships.

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SP November 6, 2012 at 14:49

I am beyond menopause and have desires stronger than those that were present during my child-bearing years. My current husband (2nd of 2) taught me experiences I had never fathomed of a prior marriage lasting 20 years. My current husband (20 yrs my senior) has been afflicted with many health issues and not able to perform as he once did; however, he was able to teach me many things that I miss and very much enjoyed. When he taught me these things he was in his early 60′s and was very viable.

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Alice January 14, 2013 at 16:49

Men and women are sexual all their lives. The idea that somehow there is a certain period for sexuality for either gender is silly. Sex changes over time, it may deepen and become more connected and sensual as a woman (or man) becomes better acquainted with her body and its needs. Some women lose interest in sex in their 30′s, some women get a rush of libido during perimenopause in their 40s, some women feel most sexually free when the anxiety of pregnancy is no longer a worry, after 50. A woman with a loving and sensual partner will always be a sensual lover.

There is a misogynistic tone in this piece that concerns me. Young women should not be set against older women or vice versa. It is not a competition. It’s all good. Wishing everyone great sex to the end of their days.

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Avery February 2, 2013 at 14:34

I love the article wonderfully astute observations the only thing it seems to be missing in the sections about women being called sluts is that women are in fact the key offenders of doing this to one another well women with no self confidence I’m tired of women bitching about the double standard women throw out these names usually in jealousy or in a look everyone this women proves I’m not the biggest whore in the room kind of way I had a close girl friend who was a call girl two clients a week the same men females fell all over themselves to call them these things when in fact they actually slept around quite a bit more and for free the same went for strippers when for all these ladies knew this slut they were talking about could have been in a healthy marriage for ten years so please ladies if you hate the double standard love yourselves more and talk less shit then we all can get our orgasms from where ever we want without needing to use a fake name hiding under a rock with a paper bag over our heads no matter how old we are bottom line as long as no ones harmed we shouldn’t need age or anything else as a excuse to celebrate the awesome power and privilege of our sex or sex lives

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Anonymous March 2, 2013 at 10:07

I’ve done my research.. girls over 21 use sex as a tool. Under 21 just wanna fuk. Simple as that..

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Nicole March 8, 2013 at 07:07

Uhhhh….I wouldn’t call a woman in her 30s “older woman”, a cougar, or in her “twilight” years….are you serious?? Your post lost all credibility.

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Anonymous March 15, 2013 at 14:24

I haven’t read ALL the posts just the first 30 or so….
some strange ideas floating around based on no knowledge whatsoever.

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WillowRose April 14, 2013 at 07:01

Back in the 80′s and probably for years before then, it was said that a woman didn’t reach her sexual peak until she was 40. 40 was the big number. It took a few years to start convincing everyone that is wasn’t 40 after all, it was 30. So give it a few more years and suddenly “the myth” will indeed be 20. Except you bring out an interesting point. According to the way a female body works when it come to reproduction, 20 really should be the number behind “the myth”. Age is fleeting, for both women and men. It happens to everyone for as long as they stay alive. And age obviously takes its toll physically. It’s more unfair for women that a man’s “peak” is at 18 than it is for men that a woman’s is allegedly in her mid 30′s.

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WillowRose April 14, 2013 at 07:19

Me again. I was reading through the comments and I want to just point out another myth and that myth is how a woman loses the stamp of being fertile at 35 or somewhere in her mid 30′s. We all have different levels of learning but this is a big one everyone should know. A woman isn’t as fertile in her mid 30′s as she was in her early to mid 20′s, but a woman is more fertile in her mid 30′s than what she is at 40 and she will be more fertile at the age of 40 than what she will be at 45. So in other words 35 isn’t the cut off age of fertility. Some people in the comments seem to be assuming that (and in a way the article seemed to have assumed that too).

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L May 7, 2013 at 20:49

This is the dumbest website ever, it was obviously created by men who have bad luck with women. I would never hate a younger woman. I am 25 myself and getting older is a part of life. Its all about how you take care of yourself, because in the end, age is nothing but a number. Halle is having a kid at 47. Shakira had her first at 36. There are women half their age who don’t look nearly as good. Furthermore, women have less insecurities as they get older, hence why they are more comfortable with their sexuality in their 30s. Also, stop hating. 30-35 is not old!

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Lol June 12, 2013 at 09:25

FIRST OF ALL, I am a 20 year old woman who thinks more than half of these comments are stupid or hilarious. It seems most older men don’t like the idea that as they age, they become less physically fit, less sexually desirable and may not always be in top shape in the bedroom. Well get over it. Both sexes deal with aging and pressure. There are more important things in life, like: love, honesty, loyalty, integrity, kindness, trust, respect, etc etc. Your self worth doesnt depend on your looks or sex. Thats why its so pathetic to see older men chasing young women. Grow up and stop it with the silly mid life crisis or whatever it is. Im going to be very blunt and honesty…. What young women WANT is a man their own age! Or at least close to their own age. None of the young women I know are attracted to or interested in older men, because young people are more drawn to someone their own age & they have more in common with each other. Be realistic, would any attractive normal woman go out with a middle-aged or a handsome young muscly guy she sees around? She will go with the second option. I get perved on by older men more than id like, and like most girls I find it embarrassing and creepy. Its like they’re desperate to feel young, which is pathetic. A few women will date an older man for money, but can you really trust someone who is probably only interested in your wallet and may not really find you appealing? I mean, as soon as you turn your back she’ll be laughing about the sex to her friends and then checking out a boy her own age. Ive seen it happen. Besides, most smart and attractive girls are capable of making their own money these days and despite the man-originated myths, they are looking for the complete package (not just money). I know older guys don’t like hearing this and they will react badly, but im just putting the truth out there (at least the truth for most women). You guys had your chance to date young women when you were also young, the times have changed and its time to move on… The new generation if young women want to be with their fellow younger men. Its not a big deal. Men and women can still be attractive at 40+ (from what ive seen, women age slightly better), but it becomes creepy for them to chase someone half their age. You should have grown up and become mature by now. No one likes looking at the “father daughter” romance… it ain’t cool. Furthermore, one commentor above said ‘how come prostitues can comfortably have sex 5x a day’ – its not comfortable… they are paid. Most prostitutes are sex slaves, drug addicts or very poor… Most people don’t even recognise or know if a woman is a slave or being trafficked, and some don’t care. But these women suffer. The so called higher class ‘call girls’ dont work as often coz they’re wealthier. There have been stories of regular (even non-trafficked) prostitutes crying and complaining about the work… A vast majorityddon’t enjoy the occuoation or the meaningless and shallowsex with their ‘clients.’ A private call girl may sometimes have a ddifferent opinion though. Overall I see this article and a lot of the male comnents as very defensive. Maybe the truth hurts? Guess thats why we women really should stick together. And FYI a lot of women over 30 are better looking than the 20 year olds I see at college. Being younger or older does not determine that you will or won’t be attractive.

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Anonymous June 12, 2013 at 09:58

Men are so defensive. Evolotion gappened a long time ago, humans are still chabging in some ways as the society changes. Older men criticise women their age, but guess what? You are not getting better with age either, so take a bug look at that inflated ego and lower your standards. If you don’t look like a 25 year old handsome Brad Pitt, then do not expect to have a 25 year old Angelina Jolie lookalike. Its not going to happen, and if it does, she may very well have her eye on other men she really likes. At university there was a study that actually revealed men have much bigger egos than women, so men usually over-estimate their looks and fitness, etc… In reality most men are NOT as desirable, attractive or appealing as they think they are. So in some ways men are more prone to being aggressive, defensive or jealous. Women really don’t hate each other that much… some women just like gossip and have a bitchy attitude, jealousy or power is not that big of a deal. Men often accuse women of jealousy, but its a pathetic excuse they use to explain something they dont really understand. Its silly. All humans feel jealousy, but not to that extent. Many women of different ages can get along easily. Some older men think they stand a good chance at finding a loyal younger girlfriend, but if you are not her age or close to it, than she probably does not find you that attractive or appealing compared to the fit young guy her own age! Women get wrinkles as they age, but guess what? So do men! In fact all humans do. Though judging from my observations 50 year old women usually look better than some 50 year old men (sadly though some silly, pathetic and sleazy old men think they are God’s gift to women… yuck). Oh and women don’t hate each other due to age. Im young and have older female friends who are nice, confident and still beautiful. Plus I shpukd mention that even though im in my early 20s, I would never consider 30-35 to be old. A 35 may be too old for me, but like a 35 year old men… they are not old. Middle aged is after 40 or 45. Old is after 60 or 65. Another thing, most of my young female friends arenot that interested in sex (unless they’ve got a young boyfriend)… so maybe the myth is true! It seems plausible that men peak at 18, they often play with themsleves a lot at that age. Oh and there was another article on sexual peaks and it said that sone men don’t notice their decline after 18, until they are over 40. And women often feel more sexy, confident and kniwledgable in tge bedroom after 30.

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Uncle Elmer June 12, 2013 at 10:01

Laff riot, Lol.

Young women are attracted to older men like a magnet. As you freely admit, men can be attractive as they age. It is perfectly normal for older men desire youthful women. Women over 30 are hurtling past their prime however and can’t compete with younger gals. You had better wake up and abandon your delusions.

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Uncle Elmer June 12, 2013 at 10:11

Anonymous-Lol, stop reading feminist studies and essays before your life is ruined. They are full of lies and distortions, many of which you have repeated here, specifically designed to appeal to your female need for rationalization. I am forwarding your comments to Dalrock.

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Opus June 15, 2013 at 11:45

Frankly amazed that anyone could disagree with the premise of the article (which I have just come across linked from Rollo) – confusing female desperation with female desire as Clarence seems to do. Predictable of course that eventually some females would find it and start shaming (yawn).

Reminds me of the time when I was still eighteen – young and pretty -and went to the Xmas bash of a film-society (hard to believe, I know) of which I was a member. Got talking to this presentable middle-aged woman. She tested me by suggesting that I might prefer chatting-up two of the younger girls, but a bird in the hand… Later, she is telling me how insignificant her husband is and how successful she is in business (her own). This impresses me not one bit, and merely tells me she is on for it. Sitting with her in her car, and wondering how to break through to mutually satisfying sex therein I tell her that I need to catch a bus (the last one for the day) which I saw as her opportunity to say ‘don’t worry I’ll drive you home’. Had she done so I would have been certain that sex would occur. She didn’t, however, and I was not prepared to make a grab for her for fear of her suddenly freaking and I looking like a gauche rapist. If she was so hot as she appeared to be (at age forty-five) for an adolescent as I then was, why did she not make that subtle suggestion – being the strong-powerful-independent-woman ™ she had been telling me that she was? I concluded that the sex-drive in her was just not strong enough, to overcome the embarrassment of making that first move. Did I misjudge? I don’t think so. Men can never force themselves on women, and no way am I doing that on a woman old enough to be my mother! I after all am, here, the prize. Never saw her again (don’t know why – maybe she couldn’t quite face the possibility of…) and it was a good few years before I again got involved again with an older bird. Why should I, when younger ones are more appealing and seemingly worth making an effort for.

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Opus September 21, 2013 at 04:03

Later on, I was offered sex by a woman – god knows how old she was, and she became what I suppose today we would call a booty call, that is I would go and visit her when ever I felt horny, and did whatever suited me and quite the kinkiest sex I ever had. It was clear that I was her last hope in life and clearly wanted a proper relationship but her options were so limited a booty call with me on my terms was what she put up with. I found her fairly physically repulsive. ‘Age doesn’t matter’ she used to say and I suppose in one sense she was right.

Naturally I was dropped, and I could not have cared less. So far as I can tell she died shortly thereafter so quite how old she was I will never know, but the idea that pensioners are more horny than women in their twenties is what certain commenters here would have you believe. All I see is the female need to be desired influencing her sexual behaviour.

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Anonymous October 10, 2013 at 10:49

That’s the most ridiculous article. Chuck. Do some research. You can’t just speculate and run with it as fact. I am not typical. And can prove your Theory Wrong! Its not a myth.

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Dina May 15, 2014 at 08:23

I hit my sexual prime in my late 30s, it was the first time I started to have a sexual appetite, Also first time having orgasms through intercourse

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Gaz May 27, 2014 at 12:55

The biggest myth is a male sexual peak is 18, some studies were performed and they averaged the peak at age 33 for men in terms of sexual satisfaction. After that it slowly waned but still stayed relatively high until around 46. After this time is when men may start to get sexual problems in terms of loss of arousal etc. But of course no two men are the same. A good diet and exercise helps keep testosterone levels in the upper normal range even into the 50′s.

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