Do Western Women Want Gender Peace?

Android/cyborg with an inbuilt uterus. Programmed to please.

Problem solved.

Men will be in one tribe with their androids cloning babies for them and building greater and better civilizations all the while women will be in another tribe living in lean-to’s and without any sanitation .

Seems very just after all this.

The Spearhead is just another Cultural Marxist endeavor. This “sphere” embraces multiculturalism which is just another branch of Cultural Marxism.

1.Lose the female moral superiority act. Stop happily offering your bodies as a reward to society’s most violent and sociopathic men.

2. Try to balance logic & emotion in your perceptions. Think of it as using both sides of your brain.

3. Don’t stand up for a woman, or follow a woman, just because she is a woman. Do so because of her merits. Women obeying the Feminist Sisterhood will be regarded by history as “good germans” before WW2, or the American public leading up to the Iraq War.

4. There are tons of female archetypes throughout history that offer wonderful lessons on being a strong and capable person. You don’t have to be a “good german” feminist to be strong and capable.

5. Acknowledge the difference between a fact and an opinion.

The title question is meaningless and can not receive a meaningful answer. The only possible response will be seen in actions, and women’s actions depend on and are reactive to men’s. Asking women about this is pointless. Asking men about it is pointless. The only thing to be done is, like Gandhi said, “be the change you want to see in the world”. Live like a man, be a man worthy of the name. If and when enough men do that, everything else falls into place.

How about gender cooperation?

Were readers intent on exploring these questions fully, this would be an unending thread. And I think the question to men could be qualified even more.

We live in two realms with women. The first is that of pair bonding; our romantic connection. The other is political. I have a very different set of desires from women in each realm.

I wrote an essay on what I want from women in relationships. I won’t hog this area by posting it all here, but for those interested here it is:

What I Want from a Woman

As to the political realm, or what I want from women in general, the answer is nothing. For in the current state of affairs, they have nothing to give.

Sorry, with all respect to some of the women here and other places that offer support to men’s causes and are willing to take the laudable action of renouncing feminism, they are the infinitesimal exception. And it is not because the others even really support feminism, but because by an large women are in possession of only transient and fleeting moments of insight into what they themselves want and need.

I have met women, and I mean lots of them, that even in their 40′s and 50′s were not ever totally sure of their own sexuality. I have heard some refer to this as women’s sexuality being more fluid. That may be true, but it only points to the reality that everything else about them appears to be fluid as well.

I have talk to scores of men with the universal experience of wanting to pull their own hair out from the frustration of giving women what they say they want, only to find out that they really wanted something else, and then giving them that “something else” only to get the same result.

My advice to men in the scores of men’s groups I used to facilitate was to more or less ignore what women said they wanted. I told them to figure out what their women needed to the best of their ability and to be prepared to hear them complain anyway. And I advised them also to just learn to take the complaints with a grain of salt instead of internalizing them. Or better yet, to ask themselves to reconsider their involvement in such a slanted arrangement.

With this in mind, asking a woman “Do you want gender peace?” is not that much different than asking her if she would rather have flowers or candy. Once she gets either one, she will find she wants something else.

I use kis as an example. I have enjoyed most of her posts by the way, sans the ex bashing, but she presents a glowing example of what I am talking about. Her sexual fantasies change dramatically depending on exogenous circumstance. When she is feeling like a failure, she is turned on by one thing. When she is feeling empowered, something else floats her boat. And there were other examples she gave all of which point to the fact that whatever was going on in her life had a profound effect on not just her feelings about those circumstances, but about her identity itself all the way down to what she found sexually appealing.

And that defines women for me. They are creatures not of solidly internalized identity, but of self-concept (and desires) that shift with the wind, or the last episode of Oprah. The women that are exceptions to this are rare enough to be inconsequential in the scheme of things.

I think it also has to be said that in order to get gender peace that women must mature in ways in which they may not be capable, or more accurately, willing.

A concept as grand and noble as gender peace will require change, sacrifice and a dogmatic consistency of values to fully realize from both sexes. I wish I did, but I don’t see it coming from a generation of women who embraced feminism, but bemoan the loss of chivalry; who demand equality and special treatment simultaneously; who say men are dogs and then pretend to be in search of a good man, and when given any or all of these things are still not satisfied.

So, in my opinion, if there ever is to be gender peace, it will come from men. And the only way to get there is for men to totally and finally renounce the old paradigm, that of chivalry and traditionalism, and to give women what they need.

And what they desperately need, though it is surely not what they want, is equality. They need to pay their own way, carry their own weight, fall on their own faces and get back up without our help. The need to register for selective service, give up alimony, valentines day, jewelry and other things as expressions of love.

They need to accept that men should be able to unilaterally renounce parental obligations during the same period of time a woman can legally do the same via abortion. We need to fill our death chambers on death row with women who have committed capitol crimes. We need to imprison them for every false police report and for every lie in court to get a restraining order.

The list is longer, but that will do for starters.

And when we have fulfilled those objectives, and in doing so give women the equality they so often lament being withheld from them, we might well be on our way to peace. For when they are forced to live in the world of men, they might well start developing the internal controls and consistency it takes to survive in such a world. Perhaps when they find, once and for all, that equality with men is a huge step down for women, their expectations of us will shift as well.

As it is, we just give women whatever they say they want at the moment and then watch our watches till they want something else.

There will never be any peace in that.

How about gender cooperation?

Isn’t that what we had before all this BS? Do men really want to go back to that now?

I’m like Hope. I like men–more than I do women truth be told. I have a young woman friend and I’ve been trying to convey to her for a couple years that her entitled attitude is foolish and self-defeating, that dealing with others honorably and compassionately is its own reward. I think maybe she’s getting it.

I cringe when women cheat on their men, or screw them over child support or custody. I don’t care what a dick she thinks he was, or whether he’s paying support or not, it’s wrong to deny him access to his kids–to deny kids access to their father. When my other friend bitches about her husband, I let her know how lucky I think she is that she has a man like him–one who’s reliable and decent even if he doesn’t take her out dancing as much as she likes or make her wet the way he used to.

When my kids watch TV, I tell them the bumbling hapless husband on the sitcoms is a caricature to make women feel superior when they’re not, to make men feel inferior when they’re not. Expose the brainwashing for the poison pill coated in chocolate that it is.

I tell them half of what they learn in school is total bullshit, from Global Warming to multiculturalism to a hundred other things. I tell them I’m not as good a father as a father would be.

I don’t know that there’s much I can do other than to try to make the women I know think about the shit they do, change their attitudes a little, let them know that just because the law says it’s okay for them to do something doesn’t make it right. And let them know that feminism didn’t make their lives better or easier–it just ensured their kids will be handicapped as adults.

“How about gender cooperation?”

Give me a fucking break. In the world of male-female relationships, the gutters are filled with the mutilated hearts and decapitated heads of men who thought women wanted gender cooperation.

@ What Me Want.

Yeah, “Give me a fucking break.”

I propose a much harder attitude towards this. We, men, are the ones who make civilisations.
By doing that we can get the women we need!
There is no reason to hold talks with women. Just leave them, GYOW and make a new civilisation. Due to lack of new territory it needs to be done right here under the noses of the feminists.

Do you want Gender Peace? Do you want men back as your lovers, husbands, fathers, and perhaps even friends? Are you ready to stop hating us, using us, suing us, stealing our children from us, feeling entitled to support from us, and holding us in complete contempt?

Like Hope, I also have gender in my personal life and have been blessed to have wonderful men in my life, from my father and husband, to my cousins and uncles, to family friends, my grandfathers and father-in-law, and many others who have all enriched my life. I was also fortunate, as I’ve mentioned in conversations you and I were both a part of that one other blog zed , that I’ve been fortunate to come from a family in which a divorce has never taken place, where I was never a latchkey kid, and where I never spent a single moment in daycare. In the post-feminist world, I’d have to consider this being extremely fortunate.

As for the second question, absolutely. I’d also fall into the “I like men more than women” camp as I’ve had some very evil things done to me by women and find my gender to be less trustworthy, sane, noble, intelligent, and empathic than are men as a rule. Truth be told, if I were in the proverbial dark alley or alone on the bus, I’d be far more frightened of a woman approaching me than a man as my experiences with women have been that bad.

To “walk the talk” in my personal life, I made a painful split from a theology that gave me security at a scary point in my life as it had the potential to be devastating to my marriage. I’ve worked hard to find a way to earn income and turn our home into a place of production rather than consumption, all while being able to take our daughter along and fulfill all the other obligations at home. It’s a “work-life balance” that works in our particular situation and helps me make a meaningful economic contribution to lift some of the burden off my husband’s shoulders, as well as provide us both with “fun money” that is hopefully going towards a motorcycle for my husband very soon.

In addition to this, I’d also be willing to get a post-nup agreement if my husband were interested. I don’t believe in divorce but do believe such an action goes right alongside the marriage vows I made, and hence the contract I entered into.

In the more “political” (using that word very loosely) realm, I’ve worked up the nerve to challenge feminist lies, both online and off. I regularly write/call to complain to companies that promote misandry when I hear of a commercial or TV character or whatever, commend political officials when they make a pro-male or pro-true equality vote and decry their actions when they do not.

My husband and I have also purchased quite a few copies of a few choice books to hand out to people who might be interested in one of these “gateway” mens rights issues. During my time as a La Leche League peer counselor, I’ve found it quite easy to begin to open the minds of women about men’s issues when I’m explaining the inequality their son will face as opposed to the privileges my daughter would have if she went to public school, etc. Circumcision can usually serve as a good “gateway issue”. “Isn’t it outrageous to consider my daughter is protected from genital mutilation under the law and your son is not?! Did you know the schools are also anti-male and your son will suffer in them as well?! Why here read this book about the war on boys (or the evils of compulsory schooling)!” *hands them book* Or “Isn’t it crazy to realize we still have the means in place to conscript young men into the armed services while our daughters don’t have to be slaves for the government? How would you feel about your son going away to war?” *hands them a book*

Maybe it’s not much, but I do try. I’m always open to suggestions of what more I can do, what I could read to gain better understanding, and so forth.

Zed, is there anyway you could delete those last two comments from me? I popped online real quick before my daughter finished her solo learning activity this morning and then forgot to close the screen. Those are Peapod’s thoughts on the gender war, not mine.

How about men really start fighting? You can’t make working treaties from a position of weakness, only from positions of equal strength.

We lost the gender war because we never bothered to fight. How about we do what men have done for 200,000 year? We go to war and take women as are slaves when we win. Nothing could be more manly. The only thing stopping men from regaining a working civilization is men opposing other men. The day that men stop defending women from other men is the day femasupreamist world dies. Women are not capable of stopping us, only other men are.

There are two basic problems with what you say, Hope:

1 – It assumes that we can only go backwards, not forwards, in terms of quality of government.

2 – You assume that we have liberty, freedom, and democracy here for the majority of men, which, for the most part, we do not.

We are not that much different from the rest of the world; we just paint over it nicely.

… that 25% number for the largest part includes child-support. But taking a man’s children away from him, and then making him pay for them is hardly “libert, freedom, and democracy” either.

Critique taken, Reinholt.

1 – It assumes that we can only go backwards, not forwards, in terms of quality of government.

This is the realist in me speaking. Governments can progress in superficial ways (which ties into your next point), but the general pyramid structure of Babylonian and Egyptian times continues today.

2 – You assume that we have liberty, freedom, and democracy here for the majority of men, which, for the most part, we do not.

There is the ideological adherence to it, and there is the realistic version. In the West, people have sufficient amount of purchase power and individual sovereignty that they have relatively more liberty and freedom than men in other parts of the world.

People in the West, due to superior overall conditions, are generally healthier. My fiance, who lived in Ghana for over a year, mentioned that de-worming medication are sold everywhere and over-the-counter, while the same is difficult to procure in America because intestinal parasites are not a major health issue.

Certain non-tangible aspects of living are highly important in the West. Freedom of speech and the ability to vote is not cared for in many areas of the world, nor is the concept of individualism useful to many. Taking away the right to vote for women would send a great shock culturally here, but to billions of women across the world, it would be far more valuable to have access to clean air and water.

Ragnar,
Here’s a translation:
http://www.britting.de/prosa/cain.html

Text is medicore (lots of wrong letters), but it adds only a half-second to the read.

Zed, notice the tone of the posts from the men here? It appears that more and more guys are opening up ginormous cans of quit. And rightfully so.

There will be no gender peace in any of our lifetimes. And we certainly aren’t going to win the current war by engaging with women. Take a look at the numbers. I happen to subscribe to the 80/20 rule. Do you think that the men and women involved in this “circle of sex” are going to initiate change? Right there we just lost 80 percent of the women and 20 percent of the men. On to the sisterhood. I am sure that all guys here have seen what happens anytime it is man vs woman in anything. 99.999999999999999% of the women automatically back the woman. While we are at it, you can throw in the pile of manginas that are sure to play the part of the white knight. That’s another what, 30%, 40%? So, we are down to .00000000000000001% of the women and roughly 50% of the men.

Unfortunately, I am not finished with the math yet. Out of these 50% of the men, what percentage is still stuck in the matrix? I am going to be generous, and say that with the advent of the internet, maybe 20% of these guys are still wandering around unaware of WHY things are as fucked up as they are. Or, more likely, they haven’t been scorched by women/the machine yet. We are now down to roughly 40% of the men that understand why things are fucked up and might have the capacity to do something.

There is just one “small” problem. Men are incapable of presenting as a united front. You and I have both seen this first hand on other forums.

Change/Peace will not happen because men lack the numbers and cohesion to impact change, and women lack foresight and morality to be proactive in initiating change.

The only way to “win” is to not play the game. Which brings us to the responses you are seeing. Our energy would be better spent telling guys the following:

1) yes things are fucked up.
2) there is not a damn thing you or anyone else can do about it, so don’t waste your time or energy.
3) quit, do not feed the machine, GYOW.
4) get a hobby/hobbies.

Those ideals went out of the window

Ideals of liberty, freedom, democracy and individualism did help lead to today’s conditions.

Democracy led to voting enfranchisement for women and equality between people of all creeds.

Freedom led to the idea that divorce should be easily accessible, because people should be free to do what they want and have the right to pursue their own happiness.

Concepts of human equality led to Western governments handing out welfare, particularly in Europe, because everyone deserves access to basic comforts of living.

High divorce rates led to many single mothers who could not afford what they perceived to be a life they deserve, and cultural messages tell them that they deserve it as they have high value as a human being in Western society.

Thus women voted for legislation favoring high alimony and child support. Governments pass such legislation because they would otherwise spend too much money trying to support all the single mothers.

In the end, idealism has led Western society astray. Idealism can only function for a group of highly intelligent, highly self-aware and compassionate individuals, such as the very philosophers who conceived notions of liberty, freedom, democracy and individualism. They lacked the foresight to realize that their ideals would lead to this.

I would prefer to see all people prosper under such ideals. However, reality does not work according to wishes. Like most others I needed strict discipline and proper teaching. The masses of humanity are like children that yearn to be led and often must be led. By endowing all the people with too much power, the leaders have abdicated their authority and responsibility, and they have led the masses to their own demise.

It is nearing a state of anarchy and lawlessness when it comes to relations between men and women. People possess frighteningly infantile feelings of empowerment and simply do whatever they want to do. Rampant sexuality, casual experimentation, lack of personal responsibility and glorification of adolescent behavior are a few examples.

Individualism has taken on a life of its own.

As an aside, cooperation is traditionally a feminine trait, but the masculinization of females in Western society has caused cooperation to fall by the wayside, and the masculine ideal of competition to flourish.

When I said gender cooperation, I meant it instead of the word peace. I don’t think peace is possible with men and women having two different agendas….and women often having more than one. Really, women need to take the red pill. They need to WANT to see the world for what it really is, and not this femininst Utopia everyone speaks of. I know it’s possible, because I did. Honestly, the only things you can do now are get the laws changed to protect men, take a stab at the indoctrinated schools, and de brainwash the millions of women in this country by stuffing facts in their face. They can’t hide. But if you want to get some work done…we have to change the minds of the women. JUST LIKE FEMINISM.

“As an aside, cooperation is traditionally a feminine trait,”

Oh? Any historical evidence to support this?

It should also be pointed out that complacency and consensus-seeking are not the same as cooperation.

I’d still consider cooperation as both a masculine and feminine trait, but present in different “phenotypes,” if you so will, expressing themselves as social harmony (female) and productive though not necessarily harmonious cooperation (male).

I don’t want to derail this thread, but male cooperation has, at least as much as male competition, driven progress and civilization.

@ Fiercely Independent John Nada

lack of new territory? are you kidding me? there are large areas of the world uninfected with that nasty little virus, Entitlement Materialist Feminism. it is simply an ugly little anomaly contained mainly in the Anglosphere.

Be a sport, we are gonna do it right here!

@ Hope-

I value your insights. Even when I don’t fully agree with them, I find them intriguing and feel they are based on logic. Do you know your IQ and/or could you share any relevent information on your thought processes? Did you find a hard time relating to females growing up? You may have a male systemizing brain is what I’m getting at. It happens more than people think.

I also would like to state that I don’t believe women are inferior to men. That is just too general of a statement. The bell-curve differences in intelligence (and other abilities) simply show that there are more extrodinary men then women and more dysfunctional men then women. The average man may have a slight advantage over the average female in IQ, but I respect the synergetic nature of the female brains various processing areas and see untapped potential. If females could detach their thought processes from their emotional processeing areas of their brain, they could see things far more logically. I feel this could be done through practice and training. For example, they are currently hindered because when they think of an apple, they are more likely to simultaniously process the visual aspects of an apple, the word apple, the emotional response to the taste of the apple, the emotional conection to the apple representing the fruit from the forbidden tree of knowledge, and how they felt that time little Johnny threw an apple at them in middle school. This failure to isolate the specific element of the apple that applies to the context of the conversation at hand can be a hinderence, but can equally be valuable from a creative stand point. Take Marylin vos Savant for example, who I don’t personally like, but is undeniably a genius.

Wiki-
“It is generally acknowledged vos Savant has an extremely high intelligence quotient (IQ) score, and she has held memberships with the high-IQ societies, Mensa International and the Prometheus Society.[5] But there is much confusion over the actual value, with data and calculations variously yielding 167+, 180, 195, 215, and 230 (the high variance reflecting the higher standard deviations which accompany high-range IQ tests).[citation needed] Extremely high IQ measurement is not an exact science: high IQs are very difficult to quantify because so few people have IQs at that level, giving rise to the problems associated with small sample sizes, ceiling bumping caused by tests not designed to measure such high IQs, and fat tailing which gives the impression more high IQs exist than predicted by a normal distribution.[citation needed] Moreover, there are general disagreements and controversies over the validity of IQ scoring at any level.”

I believe she has tapped into the synergistic potential of the female brain.
Where as male brains specialize, and further, internally specialize, she uses different regions of ther brain simultaneously, sorta like a multiprocessing computer. Men will always have more powerful processing potential, especially when it comes to visual-spatial analysis, and generally capable of crunching any type of data faster and in larger quantities, but women can have a more elegant and subtle system capable of amazing feats of its own, specifically I believe in creative problem solving, if…and this is a big if…they could disconnect their thinking from the irrational emotional regions of their brain. They also probably have their thought schemas overly tangled up, because the data is never really put into any of us in a logical manner by the education system, creating confusing cognitive dissonence situations that they most likely deal with by accepting the rationale most emotionally pleasing. This is a working theory of mine, and only bring it up for analysis and debate. It in no way is dogma to me. The male advantage of visual spatial thought to me is the deciding factor in male intellectual greatness. Seeing a problem in the minds eye is superior to “talking it out” internally, as words can be slippery, vague, and contradictory. On that note, all numbers are to me, is language boiled down to the most basic, clear cut definition possible. Hence math is the best language to represent reality in its truest sense, although still inherently lacking somehow. I think the foundation of number theory itself may be flawed. A better math system might be closer to the binary language….now I’m ranting and I’ll stop.

Ragnar November 5, 2009 at 12:04 pm

@ Fiercely Independent John Nada

lack of new territory? are you kidding me? there are large areas of the world uninfected with that nasty little virus, Entitlement Materialist Feminism. it is simply an ugly little anomaly contained mainly in the Anglosphere.

Be a sport, we are gonna do it right here!

***
thanks, i’ll pass. that’s an exercise in futility.
but by all means, knock yourself out!

Getting back to the original question

“For the men, anoukange’s question above – which she will print up and throw from the rooftops – What do men want and like from women?”

one could ask for a lot of free ponies for everyone, but I’m not sure who would be helped by hearing that. So, staying within the realm of the possible — and even the not-too-strenuous — what I would like to see from women is simple honesty, about themselves and the world.

Signal examples: (1) Don’t say “I want a nice guy” if the plain truth shows that you don’t, in fact, favor nice guys. This kind of hypocrisy really damages the world and leads to a lot of pain and hatred. Directly related, (2) Don’t say “All men are assholes” when the truth is that all the men _you choose_ to favor are assholes. If you look back and discover that all your men have, in fact, been assholes, then have the guts to admit the truth, that this is what you chose.

I don’t think it’s reasonable or realistic to ask women to change what they want or how they feel, at least in the very short run. But it is not unreasonable to ask them simply to stop lying about it, and admit the truth of what they actually do. Make the world more navigable and less insane; that will do for a start.

“Agreed, and I have seen examples of this first hand. Furthermore, a good family unit is a team, with natural divisions of labor, good leadership from the man, purposeful subordination from the woman, and good cooperation between the two.”

The same can be extrapolated to civilization at large. Had women not gone along with male designs to create civilization (largely through religion) we would still be squabbling over females and living in caves.

Similarly, had men not cooperated, we would have been ruled by barbarians, be it the Huns at Chalons, Ottomans at Vienna, the Nazis in Europe, the Japanese in Asia, or any other of countless examples.

Though feminists are quick to disparage female qualities, and the fact that “complacent” has basically become a swearword in our brave new west, I consider cooperation through complacency every bit as important as cooperation through reason. In the grand scheme of things, they both helped us create and uphold civilization, though the only shortcoming of women seems to be that they are too easily mislead by the emotional appeals of charlatans, hence the lack of vast female outcry on feminist designs on them.

Though the western ideal of a man may be the romanticized “cowboy,” it was not cowboys who paved the road for the creation of the United States, but the cavalry who fought side by side, whatever their personal differences.

@21 guns

“I was too busy drawing pictures and flunking out.”

I would also say to you-

I value your insights. Even when I don’t fully agree with them, I find them intriguing and feel they are based on logic. Do you know your IQ and/or could you share any relevent information on your thought processes? Did you find a hard time relating to females growing up? You may have a male systemizing brain is what I’m getting at. It happens more than people think.

Or a very well written contract equally honored by each participant.

My point is that people are inherently selfish, and will generally angle for an upperhand when an oppurtunity presents itself.

With that said, the male style of cooperation is generally superior, as it is more adaptable and flexible, if less pleasent, but we don’t live in a pleasent world, so the former is superior from a survival perspective.

Novaseeker-

The practical implications? Hormone-driven idiots, both male and female, should be given no say in (long-term) partner-selection.

Though the term “arranged marriage” immediately summons forth mental images of weeping 13 year-old girls and oafish men in their late 20s, from my practical experience of people who were married by their parents, couples who are the results of arranged marriages last much longer and are on average happier, though maybe not as passionate as couples which are the results of object-related love.

The wisdom of my parents is slowly dawning upon me (they always suggested I hit on and marry girls who were cute, sexy, agreeable and rich, though I was in my wild “never gonna marry gonna play the field forever” phase back then), and I’m kicking myself for the opportunities I have missed.

It is indeed preferable to present the artist with a raw rock and demand that he create a sculpture, rather than presenting him with a finished sculpture, for his attachment to the former will be much greater than his attachment for the latter.

“It is indeed preferable to present the artist with a raw rock and demand that he create a sculpture, rather than presenting him with a finished sculpture, for his attachment to the former will be much greater than his attachment for the latter.”

Poetically true. Adolesence is extended to long. Permanent pair bonding should happen much sooner. Of course, I was a late bloomer, so that wouldn’t have worked out well for me, unless my marriage would have been arranged.

“Of course, I was a late bloomer, so that wouldn’t have worked out well for me,”

So are most people. It depends on how much our parents can ignore our kvetching and tell us to turn our lemons into lemonade, keeping us on the track, not on some preconceived notion of adolescence and maturity.

Ahhhhh I can’t stand my youthful idiocy, the one girl they insisted on is of model-like beauty and very wealthy, if only I had listened instead of being a cad. All the easy lays of the world cannot make up for what I let slip through my fingers

Oh well, live and learn. And I still do not concede defeat, my much polished gentlemanly side might still win her (and more importantly her traditionalist family) over.

@ Paul Elam’s comment

That pretty much sums up the entire discussion. Not that we can’t/shouldn’t elaborate on it, but that is a great analysis of the issue(s) we face.

Johnny Bravo- Hormone-driven idiots, both male and female, should be given no say in (long-term) partner-selection.

It depends on how much our parents can ignore our kvetching and tell us to turn our lemons into lemonade, keeping us on the track, not on some preconceived notion of adolescence and maturity.

Excellent point. The earned wisdom of the older generation is all too often brushed aside when youthful zeal and hormones come into play. There was much I thought I “wanted” or “needed” as a teenager that my “overprotective” parents wouldn’t allow and I can honestly say I am the better for their strict rules just a bit past my teenage years now.

I thankfully had enough sense about me to listen to my parents when it came to my marriage in particular. They had wisdom, were thinking of the long-term, weren’t drunk with infatuation, and had my best interests in mind in a way only family can. Several of the women I was hanging around with when I got married voiced their opposition to my choice of husband, as well as my young age at marriage (I was 18), but my parents, grandparents, and uncles all thought my now-husband was a great guy and that I was ready to be a wife. Nearly six years later I am most thankful for having had family who cared enough to guide me well on the path into adulthood.

Women don’t think that way so much. To them, whoever has the higher perceived status is always in charge — the plumber is simply fixing something because she is in charge and she told him to. To men, it’s actually a cooperative task (which can admittedly be annoying when guys are trying to help you even though they don’t know a damn thing about what you’re doing).

Hehe, my mechanic tells his customers it’ll be $75/hour–$100 if you watch, $150 if you insist on helping.

I’m beginning to think I’m narcissistic more than I would like to admit, because I really like attention, although I was a latch key kid to an extreme level bordering on neglect, so whatever…..I’ll just join Kis in being an attention whore.

*pats seat cushion* Just come sit by me, ‘kay?

I don’t think there is a basis for cooperation among men and women. I agree with Novaseeker that the interests are too divergent.

Women want serial monogamy with Alpha dominant men, and are willing to “share” them defacto with other women. Soft Polygamy in other words, this is what most women want. Or African style matriarchy, seen among Brit Chavs and Ghetto American areas.

Western men want exclusive sexual access to a woman of their own comparable attractiveness and status.

This is simply impossible given women’s preferences. Thus, men get (around 80% of them) variations of women with far too many Alpha male partners at the end of their attractiveness and fertility. IF that. Many women are now choosing to be single mothers with various Alpha spawn. This means degeneration into some sort of soft polygamy and matriarchy, absent any challenges form Arabian hard patriarchy. Most guys will gradually thug it up to be just what women want: the most dominant man in the room. The trade-0ff is about zero investment in women and kids, and most women are perfectly happy with that arrangement.

There is no basis for cooperation because there are no mutual interests. Women abhor the nuclear family and would rather, a few exceptions aside, be part of some soft, rotating harem of the most dominant man.

Hope, I have a problem with much of your post here…but before I get into that, I will say that I’m not personally attacking you, I do recognize that you are one of the few women that does recognize the current injustices of the system and how screwed up gender relations have become.

That being said…

In China, there is not a war between men and women. It is a peace enforced by violence.

That is the only kind of peace possible.

Men are superior to women, on every level, full stop. They abort female fetuses and kill female newborns until boys now outnumber girls by 35 million. Little girls are told from the moment they are old enough to understand that they are inferior to men. There is no possibility for anger or rebellion. It is simply a part of life, like the fact that the Chinese government will censor you, imprison you or shoot you dead if you dare to speak out against it. You live under oppression, full stop.

Wait…what? You’re inferring that men are in a full out effort to oppress women in China? What about the authoritarian communist government dictating a one child per family policy? Given that Chinese culture is one of the oldest continuous, living culture in the world, and that it is common knowledge that the Chinese culture was based on Patriarchy – in which the eldest son carried on the name, got all the inheritance as well as carried all of the responsibility for caring for his parents in their old age, is it not obvious that the rulers of China that instituted this ‘one child’ policy new PRECISELY what would happen?

I have been told since I was young that I was inferior. By who? Why? Can you not understand the conditions that have been in effect for two generations now may have certainly distorted an entire culture’s value towards a particular gender? I’m part Chinese. My Great Grandfather was from Canton, and he had 9 children. Not a one of my Grand-Aunts ever expressed dissatisfaction or oppression or inferiority from their lives in a small farming village in China, prior to the Communist takeover and mass social engineering they instituted.

I have wished that I could have been born a man. Despite living in the West, I was born and raised in that world and can live under it again if need be, thus I am not afraid if men fight back and place women under oppression. I have known worse, and I do not take what I have for granted. Western women are spoiled; they perceive small things as wrongs and injustices. But they are not faced with real issues, because from a position of privilege, they can only demand more privileges.

Now that was an excellent point.

It is interesting to note here that the Chinese women participate in abortion and infanticide themselves, and willingly. Chinese women have early access to ultrasound diagnostics, and it is routine for families to opt for abortion when they find that they are expecting a girl. China’s laws do not expressly prohibit or define late-term termination. Infanticide, while illegal, is speculated to be in the hundreds of millions.

Thank you, communist authoritarian government…not some diabolical gender plot the Chinese men have perpetrated on the women, en masse.

What does it show? That females do cooperate, and en masse, they cooperate with the prevailing culture. Who sets the dominant culture? Men.

Men as a whole? No dear, most men in this world are just as beholden, blinded and controlled by the exact same elite as any woman…in China, America or anywhere else.

Human lives are perceived as less valuable in other parts of the world than in the West, and female lives even less so. Females have such feeble status in China that they are already seen as little more than commodities, and they will become even more of a commodity as men wildly outnumber women, with resultant increases female kidnapping and trafficking.

LOL – Hope, you are actually describing females INCREASED value…as females become more and more scarce, their value will continue to rise.

Western men actually — and correctly — have a reputation around the world as being the most chivalrous towards women. Individual lives are more respected in the West. Nowhere else, in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and South America, have men given women so much power.

True. And what have women done with this power? They were fooled into participating in an insane gender war that has devastated the nuclear family, and begun the dramatic decline in civilization.

That is not to say that verbal and physical abuse do not happen to women in the West, but that as a whole, Western men are far more gentle and behave more kindly, and are far more willing to share their power with women.

That, my dear, was the influence of what was once a Judeo-Christian, god fearing religious culture. We are literally watching this disappear before our very eyes.

Partly this is because Western civilization has more power to dole out in general, and partly this is because of Western political philosophies of progressing towards a democratic ideal.

Wrong again. “Progressing towards a democratic ideal” is PRECISELY WHY civilization is in decline. The US was originally designed to be a Representative Republic, in which the rights of the individual, and the minority, were protected from the tyranny of the majority. In which the sanctity of the home — the Patriarchal Home — was considered inviolate. This is what gave rise to the civilization. Subverting it into a Democracy (largely under the guise of “women’s right to vote”) was precisely the mechanism to divide and conquer the foundation of civilization, the nuclear family.

The West has moved away from more traditional and authoritarian styles of governance to power for the masses.

No, the West started out as the grand experiment of limiting the power of the government and vesting it into the individual. By fooling the masses into accepting Democracy as it’s ideal, we have been moving towards a more authoritarian style of government…while convincing the average useful idiot that are somehow moving towards freedom via “democracy.”

Remember, we live in an age accurately predicted by Orwell in 1984. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY.

When power is given to all individuals, many will use it irresponsibly, and many will ask for more individual power until the system topples. The alternative is to return to the Athenian style of democracy, in which only privileged men have a vote.

No, the alternative is to return to the Representative Republic that limited the power of the Government to involve itself in the everyday lives of the citizenry. Also, by using the language of “privileged men” you are simply using the rhetorical device of class warfare instituted by the cultural marxists.

The reason they use “privileged” was to foment dissent about the previous requirements of owning property to vote – which meant only the producers of society, those that worked to achieve and build enterprise, were those that had a vested interest in voting to maintain the environment that fostered so much prosperity.

Remember A. de Tocqueville’s observation:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship.”

We are currently in that collapse stage de Tocquville was talking about.

Fuck Democracy.

Men in other parts of the world do not enjoy as much power as men in the West, and many of them have low status and live in poverty. However, as a whole, they have power over women.

That depends on how you define “power.” On a purely physical level, sure…but this completely ignores the biggest power women have over men is their ability to manipulate men to do their will with their sexual desirability. If you are familiar with the Bible, than you should review the story of Samson…the strongest man in the world…laid low by a Delilah’s sexual manipulations.

Are men in the West willing to give up a part of their own power to remove power from women? Are men in the West willing to remove voting for the masses except for a select few?

Hell yeah.

Are men in the West willing to use real violence to enforce disenfranchisement? You mean real violence isn’t being used to enforce THE MOB RULE (your precious “democracy”) right now?

If men take a hardline approach, this is the path they must inevitably come to and follow to achieve victory in a real power struggle. Yet it clashes with the very foundations of Western ideals of liberty, freedom and democracy.

As I detailed above, Western ideals of liberty and freedom have been subverted, corrupted and destroyed PRECISELY because the masses have been fooled into believing Democracy was some sort of desirable ideal.

Heh Jabherwochie, you remind me of myself in many ways.

It’ll probably mean sacrificing some of their power in the sexual marketplace for the benefit of men and children, so the answer is a resounding “fuck no”. I have no doubt men would respond the same if they enjoyed the same advantages, however.

JohnnyBravo November 5, 2009 at 3:41 pm
“Heh Jabherwochie, you remind me of myself in many ways.”

I value your insights and ideas, so that means a lot to me. I hope people aren’t too bothered when I talk so much about myself, but I try to offer plenty of other intellectual nuggets also. I will try to limit my auto-biographical baggage more, except when absolutely relevent to the discussion at hand. I just feel like I’m a posterboy for someone screwed by the system, particularly the educational system. And venting here is 10x better than the handful of stupid ass therapists and shrinks I’ve been to. (No offense Mr. Elam, I’m sure you would have done wonders by comparison)

“If you were my man I would stand before you as an offer. I would work to know you and dream your dreams with you. I would vacuum in lace, I would time release my secrets and my desires to extend the ride of intrigue, I would be elegant on your arm and never question you in public, I would whisper dirty deeds into your ear and leave your thoughts to wander, I would keep my wrists skinny through out the years so that you may always pin them down with one hand only, I would give you the pillow you preferred, I will keep my skin firm, my muscles toned, my mind flexible, I would go deep, I would go down, I would cook your favorite foods, I would water your roots and iron your shirts, I would carry myself with class, I would fill your cupboard with Jack, I would kiss you with my hands on your face, I would sneak my foot up your leg under the table at dinner, I would steal glimpses of you in movie theaters and memorize your profile, I would keep my hair long and lush so you could pull it, I would absorb your stress and melt it, I would desire your brain, your ways and your pauses, I would trim your hair with precision, I would never stand in the way of your spirit, I would listen to your stories, I would digest you in inches, I would allow you your space and freedom, I would love you, hold you, fuck you, know you, believe in you, travel with you, stay in with you, drink with you, sleep beside you and live beside you.”

I wrote this in a post a while back and it reamins my vow to the man that may be in my future. I sense that I am this way due to my background with men, my age, my upbringing and my lack of attention span for today’s television. I have never, ever watched “reality” tv. My mother stayed home to raise my siblings and I. My father supported all of us consistently and I spent a good chunk of my twenties helping two men become great while loving and living with them in long term relationships. I actually believe that it is not a wetsern woman issue that we all discuss here. My roommmate and her group of friends are raging feminists and they all hail from other countries (Turkey, Russia, India, South Africa, Australia, UK and others). I, the lone American, am the only one amoung them that defends against their attacks on men. I am also the only one amoung them who has had successful relationships with men and who has gained the trust and respect of men because it is what I enter meeting them with. I had to admit to and adjust many of my own behaviors to reach success in my relationships. I always look to myself first. The buck stops with me, period. I have tried to show these women that they are hyprocitcal and shallow and wrong. I have tried to tell them that their unhappiness will contiue if they do not hold a mirror up to themselves. I believe that this country has an over-all failure in self awareness and self psychology. I don’t have the answers but I do know that I am interested in the solutions. I submit my request again: We must wipe the slate clean. Please, as men, lead us. And I, as a woman, will follow you if you are wise, and kind, and strong, and just, and funny, and balanced.

“Oh? And where has pure capitalism even been tried? In the name of moderation, capitalism has been subverted into the current mess we have today – which is really nothing more than corporatist fascism.”

If its never been tried, its because its not feasible. I can accept that our system has allowed for too much socialism, and that it could use a dose of more capitalism (I can accept that, although I don’t entirely agree), but the fatal flaw in pure capitalism is that power corrupts, and it would corrupt the people at the top of the darwinian capitalistic totem pole you seem to think is a good idea, especially since the attributes in people that allow for wealth accumulation are not always the most benevolent ones, and that system would turn into nothing better than kingdom states ruled by the ultra rich, battling it out with each other, while everyone else is a serf, slave, or soldier. I would think that corporate facissim is an appropriate parallel to the kingdom states I’m talking about. If you accrue too much power, you can stifle competition.

You’re inferring that men are in a full out effort to oppress women in China?

No. Both men and women in China live under a social and ideological oppression such that they willingly abort their own children for the good of their families.

I lived in China when the new census were taking place, and as a young girl I remember that having an abortion was even seen as an patriotic act. In their place, I would have likely done the same.

By who? Why? Can you not understand the conditions that have been in effect for two generations now may have certainly distorted an entire culture’s value towards a particular gender?

My father and my father’s entire family wanted a son. My teachers told me that boys were smarter. My mother’s family told me that I was ugly, my skin was too dark, and that my looks were not up to par.

These cultural values are not particular to that generation. Lighter skin has been glorified since at least the Imperial period. Women were not particularly valued at any point during Chinese civilization.

What about the authoritarian communist government dictating a one child per family policy?

Yes, the one-child policy caused a wave of female fetus abortions. There is also a great deal of authoritarian control, such as forced abortions.

The root cause is the ideology that men are inherently superior to women. It is just as foolish and ignorant as the ideology that women are inherently superior to men.

eldest son carried on the name, got all the inheritance as well as carried all of the responsibility for caring for his parents in their old age

Your point is valid, but you seem to imply that it is a desirable and sustainable situation. I am pointing out the folly of gender power imbalance in both directions.

females INCREASED value…as females become more and more scarce, their value will continue to rise.

Increased value… as objects. Gold’s prices rise due to scarcity as well. In Western morality, a human being is not a mere object.

most men in this world are just as beholden, blinded and controlled by the exact same elite as any woman…in China, America or anywhere else.

Ironically, my grandparents were high-ranking Chinese government officials. As members of the “elite,” they were basically towing the party line and brainwashed into the same cultural revolution that swept China.

As I detailed above, Western ideals of liberty and freedom have been subverted, corrupted and destroyed PRECISELY because the masses have been fooled into believing Democracy was some sort of desirable ideal.

I did not disagree. Read my subsequent comment on liberty, freedom and democracy.

I actually favor a less sophisticated, less evolved government.

More primitive, smaller towns and city-states more closely resemble the natural human condition, and do not suffer from the issues that plague huge nation-states and imperialistic powers.

It is unrealistic at this point, however, to ask Western societies to give up power for human fulfillment and happiness. Nations who aspire to imperialism such as China necessarily oppress their citizens in order to grasp more power.

“I actually favor a less sophisticated, less evolved government. There are only two states of power – either it’s vested in the states or it’s vested in the individuals. The greatest trick foisted on our current reality was to fool people into believing that vesting the power in the state increased the power of the individual, when the exact opposite is what is actually occurring.”

Depends on if the state is benevolent, which it rarely will be, but neither are people, and some of the people in your system will gain too much personal power and control. Like I said, moderation. Checks and balances. Its the best we can do, despite its ineffecencies. If democracy is “we are all equal, one person = one vote” and capitalism is “survival of the fittest, Darwinian logic”, I see the two as a natural check and balance to each other. Its the best we can hope for, and only natural the two would blend together.

“Jabber – my point is that under “pure” capitalism, you cannot have wealth accrue unfairly. All of the corruption attributed to capitalism has occurred from capitalists that used their money to purchase influence in the Government to achieve sanctioned cartelization and de facto monopoly powers…which is not “pure” capitalism – though it’s often blamed as an intrinsic feature of capitalism.’

What about robber barons, and monopolies, and corporate espionage. Not all corruption is directed through the government.

War. Imperialism. Conquest.

You realize this….yet you still buy into the propaganda that women in China are “devalued” and “oppressed” due to cultural values of Chinese men?

Assume for a moment, then, that there are no Chinese men who have devalued or oppressed women, and that it has been entirely the fault of a de-gendered government that has done this on a systematic level.

This is a false dichotomy, as erroneous as your previous statement inferring that ALL men devalue and oppress women.

China is a right, good and proper state, culturally and politically?

Prior to the communist takeover, China was a Patriarchal culture in which male kinship system was valued…which is one of the primary reasons China was an advanced civilization when so many other countries and cultures were back waters.

Also, to get a better picture of the ancient Chinese and the role of “power” back than, how do you explain the greatest admirals and generals were typically eunuchs?

This was PRECISELY because the ancient Chinese understood the power of pussy manipulation over men!

China was a Patriarchal culture in which male kinship system was valued… many other countries and cultures were back waters.

Then, just as now, many “back waters” countries and cultures were patriarchal as well. Patriarchy is not the primary indicator of a country’s progress. Intelligence, work ethic and strong / strict traditional adherence are greater predictors.

Also, to get a better picture of the ancient Chinese and the role of “power” back than, how do you explain the greatest admirals and generals were typically eunuchs?

“It is said that the justification of the employment of eunuchs as high-ranking civil servants was that, since they were incapable of having children, they would not be tempted to seize power and start a dynasty.”

This was PRECISELY because the ancient Chinese understood the power of pussy manipulation over men!

So, if being immune to the power of “pussy manipulation” is required for a nation’s ultimate success, should it be required of men in the West? (Lest someone take me seriously, I say this in humor.)

So, if being immune to the power of “pussy manipulation” is required for a nation’s ultimate success, should it be required of men in the West? (Lest someone take me seriously, I say this in humor.)

While your quip was humorous and certainly a witty retort (ha!), understand that the current paradigm has actually magnified the power of “pussy manipulation” exponentially, while emasculating almost all vestiges of males natural powers.

We are currently under the influence of a pussy hegemony.

Show us a single Matriarchal culture that rose to civilizational status throughout history?

Can’t do it.

You are constructing a tall strawman out of my assertion that treating women as inferiors does not create a great nation by its own accord. I have never argued for Matriarchy or that women should be leading wars or nations. I believe that as the post states, men should lead women culturally out of this

I do not care for Western feminism. I do believe that while the Western tradition of chivalry is flawed, it is preferable to the Eastern model. Having grown up with two different cultures, I much prefer culturally Western and Westernized men’s attitudes toward women.

We are currently under the influence of a pussy hegemony.

It is not as simple as that. Look into the “fascist” style capitalism and the way it has exported many jobs overseas. The way that the Protestant ethic of savings and hard work have been corroded into easy credit and investment. The influence that advertising which preys on human instincts concerning sex and food has wormed its way into both male and female psychology.

What myriad of factors brought about this culture? Was it only women? Can it be solved by only addressing gender dynamics? Think about it.

Jabberwochie

Thanks. I have an IQ of 134, but I don’t always act like it. The man I’m currently involved with (mathematician, IQ 172) thinks I’m a scatterbrained dreamer. But among my artist colleagues, I’m seen as Mr. Spock. It’s all relative.

I never really sat down and analyzed my though processes, but offhand I can tell you that I don’t think very fast, which is why I don’t comment here that much. I can’t think and write on the fly like so many others here can. It can take hours for me to organize my thoughts and choose my words. Working out a problem can take weeks or years; the bigger the problem the longer it takes. BUT, when I finally do figure it out, I’m usually right.

I had a very difficult time relating to other girls when I was growing up, although I did form a couple of close friendships. I didn’t get along with boys all that well either, but I put it down to being an introvert.

I read this post with great interest because it finally attempts to answer: if men are so angry about what’s happening what do you want us women to do?

~100 comments… and very few that give us answers. Most seem to say, “I give up. There will never be peace with women.”

What happened to men being the leaders of civilization? Do you think George Washington gave up when things got tough with the British? Do you think Jesus and his follower gave up when he was faced with most awful kind of opposition again and again?

A man who “gives up” on trying to lead women and tell them what to change, and says his life sucks because of women… is probably in denial that problem is his and his lack of self-motivation to “be the change we wish to see in this world.”

I’m very, very sorry if that sounds mean to say… but if you guys want tough love women out there to push the anti-feminist tide… we have to call you out when you are not leading us in fighting the good fight too.

By the way by the problem with men/boys I mean the things you’re talking about here. Again I still don’t understand it enough to be able to describe it. If I had to take a quiz on it I would probably fail. I just know it has something to do with child support, unequal wages, unfair hiring and college admission practices, and alimony. And maybe what’s taught in the educational system too and higher prosecution of men in legal terms (e.g., violence gets a man in jail while passive aggressiveness in a female goes scot free).

A man who “gives up” on trying to lead women and tell them what to change, and says his life sucks because of women… is probably in denial that problem is his and his lack of self-motivation to “be the change we wish to see in this world.”

You had three choices.

You could have posted about something you agreed with – a comment that struck a chord, someone’s reasoning you admired. A new insight that has made your world a little larger.

Or you could have formed the judgment that there’s nothing of interest to you here, and passed on quietly to another web-site for something more to your taste.

Or you could have taken offense, and made some kind of negative comment.

You chose the third, and ironically, castigated the negativity of others.

lovelysexybeauty , thats a very pretty name.

You are asking why the men are talking but not acting. What should we fight for? Spoiled women with hundreds of shoes? The nanny state ? We don’t care anymore.

I believe in self-implosion. Just let it go. Then we will rebuild.

Time is really undervalued. “A gentleman is a patient wolf”.

Actually this relationship seems like the dynamic tension between your average investor and wallstreet. Now that the average investor has a better idea of the true ridunkulousness of market mechanics…. he’s considering the option of either non-participation or exploiting the system where he sees arbitrage (notice the huge amount of first time option traders popping up – everyone is playing casino style now because it’s the most appropriate response)

PiercedHead & Bhetti – You guys are right. I failed to point out how much I appreciated to Paul, What Me Want, the gentleman who talked about foreign women, and later zed. This is unfair and incorrect. And I focused too much on the negative and not the positive, and didn’t point out specific people and made the same mistake I hate – generalization of the whole based on just a few opinions.

And thank you also for the response G.

This was a good learning lesson for me in more ways than one… OK off to bed now. Good night and best wishes to all.

Deborah says:
Repeal quotas at the workplace
Repeal equal pay acts
Do away with alimony in divorce
Change No fault divorce laws

Nice analysis and concluding points (above)!
Doing away with the draft is something that should be added to this list, as nobody should be conscripted into government slavery.

Also guaranteed anonymity for men accused of rape and punishments under the law for the deviant women who make false accusations. Ideally being the same amount of time that would be served for rape. This would provide protection for men who are falsely accused, as well as send a message to women that this behavior is unacceptable, detrimental to society, and intolerable.

Something needs to be done about sexual harassment as well, though I am not smart enough to know what precisely a solution to the current legal issues surrounding this issue would be.

@ Paul

What I want from women is nothing. If I see a woman (any woman) all I see is danger, threat and my only natural enemy. So what I want from women is distance. My natural instinct (call it chivalry if you like) prevents me for doing harm to any woman on the other hand I would not go out of my way to do them any good either. I expect nothing from them and have nothing but disdain to offer them in return.

So for me the way forwards would be a way without women.

The very first post in this thread said it all. It said what more and more men are thinking.

Let me add women are unhappy and as long as they got the ability to fuck with the controls of our society we should keep them unhappy.

Any woman regarding herself as equal to us should be regarded as an enemy. I real life there is no Geneva Convention, there are no rules, many men has learned this by now.

Ragnar : Men and women can only live together when women accept to male rule.

Exactly. And the brainwashed women today aren’t going to do that unless they’re made to. I think one of the most effective ways to make them (us) accept male rule wold be to let them (us) live for a while under female rule. What a horrible thought.

Neil: On the legal sphere, much can be done. Changing laws is a matter of determination… and propaganda. Counter-propaganda, the more based in factual proof it is, the better.

Don’t forget the effectiveness of fiction and drama in propagandizing. I always feel like a voice crying in the wilderness when I try to pitch fiction as a propaganda tool, it’s so ignored by conservatives, traditionalists and assorted other anti-feminists. But for how many generations has feminism and leftism used those tools, to great advantage, to sway the masses to their viewpoint? And with the rise of digital publishing, it’s within reach of more people than ever. In 2008, there were more books published digitally (although not all were fiction) than traditionally published books. An added bonus is that the printed page — whether an e-book on a Kindle or print-on-demand on paper — boosts literacy.

Some of the problems of Western culture may stem from the fact that people attempt to seek protection from all “wrongs” and “injustices.” There is great virtue to trying to make things “right” and “fair” for all men, all women, all minorities, all animals, etc. but ultimately are men’s rights activists not doing the same thing they accuse feminists of doing?

Undoubtedly some may be. But this is not a particularly useful observation – it is the kind of comment one could make of any group of various people.

It must be apparent to you that there is no real commonality of strategy amongst men here, any more than generally exists between people who for some reason have a commonality of sympathy. What unites us is our common experience as men – and the most significant part of this common experience is that we are beginning to see the world in an entirely different light to how we may have seen it formerly. The remarkable thing to me is that so many of us are speaking what only seems like the truth, but we are also well aware that expression of that same truth in open society would provoke hostilities of the most extreme kind. We are in the same position as any who in the past would have been called heretics, and as in the past, the cruelest punishments have always been reserved for heresy. There appears to be room at the top for only one version of truth, and all other contenders are dealt to ruthlessly – no matter how sincerely held, how innocuous, and so clearly supportable.

Indulging in such heresy doesn’t necessarily mean each heretic wants societal structures erected to protect his point of view – but it is oxygen to him to hear the thoughts of other heretics, and to know that the truth that is clear in his own eyes is also clear in the eyes of another.

The exchange you are witnessing is not merely a political device to secure government favour and regulatory recognition. It is a repudiation of long-held and fundamental expectations of men that no longer correspond to necessity. There is no half-way position between useful and useless, so the seismic shift associated with throwing off these old values is swift and overwhelming. The greatest value for men here is that they are learning how to ride that wave. What follows in its wake is anyone’s guess.

“When I read angry sounding words, I can’t help but soak up the tone… and as a girl I felt attacked. ”

lovelysexybeauty—

Damn, the bitch is revealing my tactics . . . LOL!

S.R.

I honestly hope that chivalry dies an agonizing death in my lifetime, and is never resurrected.

Many men agree with you on that.

It is not efficient for men to fight for justice against misandry.

It is more efficient for men to transfer the costs of misandry over to women, so that women crack under the weight of their own misdeeds. That is already happening, in the form of Game, outsourcing of women’s jobs (since women are paid more than men), men Expating and/or marrying foreign women, men refusing to maintain a level of safety that women have become accustomed to, etc.

“~100 comments… and very few that give us answers. Most seem to say, “I give up. There will never be peace with women.””

Wrong. Most say “I give up on western women. There will never be peace with western women.”

There are plenty of non-western traditional women on this planet, so most guys here seem to prefer trying their luck with them instead of becoming contortion artists and trying to fix a system and people which seem fundamentally broken.

“What happened to men being the leaders of civilization? Do you think George Washington gave up when things got tough with the British? Do you think Jesus and his follower gave up when he was faced with most awful kind of opposition again and again?”

Ah, what an easy argument to turn around. Men have tried their luck elsewhere and looked for greener pastures since the dawn of time.

Had the first pilgrims not done so, there would not have been a George Washington. Had Moses and the jews of Egypt not done so, there would have been no ten commandments and no Jesus.

Hell, if men hadn’t done so, we would still be stuck as scattered minor tribes somewhere in Africa.

SexyBeauty,

When I read angry sounding words, I can’t help but soak up the tone… and as a girl I felt attacked.

Good. Figure out what parts of what we are saying is wrong, then tell us so. This is how better ideas are developed.

Do you men want all of us women to commit suicide basically? We’re worthless? I mean c’mon… I know you guys are angry and venting, and this blog is a place for that. But if this is just a “yelling shack” place than please don’t expect a lot of positive actionable social change to come from it.

Some of the people posting here may honestly not care. But, given what I’ve seen on the other side of the debate, this attitude isn’t that horrible.

Consider, what do you really have to offer to, say, a 50 year old man? In what ways can you really enrich his life? Do you have any shared experiences, things that would enable you to relate to him on a personal level and supply useful philosophical insight? Do you have any shared hobbies that you could pursue together (that he wouldn’t have more fun pursuing alone)?

Women are (often, although not always) social creatures; they define themselves by their relationships with others. Men are (often, although not always) solitary creatures; they define themselves by what they accomplish, and they define what accomplishment means by setting goals. This, ultimately, is why the initial questions are themselves misguided.

When women ask what men want from them, they’re making the mistake of thinking that the male-female relationship is important to the identity for the male in the way that it is for the female. They think (so near as I can tell) that the problem men have is that they are unhappy because they are not getting what they want from women in terms of a relationship, and so are struggling with their identity. Thus, the solution must be to find out what men want form women, and have women give it to them so that everyone is happy with how their relationships define them.

But men don’t treat their human relationships as definitional to who they are–they have goals and accomplishments for that. Their human relationships are pure exchanges; sometimes one side supplies resources to the other, sometimes vice versa. But then love comes along. Love (among other things) is when you subordinate your own happiness to the happiness of someone else. So, when a man loves a woman, he gives her resources in order to try to make her happy. This makes the exchange appear one sided, which has direct effects on the woman’s identity with respect to the man–suddenly, the man is subordinate to her. But this isn’t what the woman wants, so she wants to know what she is supposed to give back in order to make the exchange even. Society tells her that the answer to this question is sex…but this is an unsatisfying answer, since women (usually, if not always) do not want to have sex with their social inferiors. She never realizes that the thing she is supposed to give back is just her being happy. That her happiness will make the man happy, allowing him to achieve his original goal in giving her the resources.

Then Game comes along, and tells the man to never (or basically never) give the woman gifts. This makes both parties happier, because the woman never feels like the man is declaring himself her social inferior to begin with, and is thus happier with the relationship, making the man happier because he is dependent on her happiness (either through love, or through the sex they’ll be having because he feels like her social superior).

For the opposite question, a similar problem arises. To women, a gender peace means a nice connected society with a happy consensus on all issues relating to gender interactions. As new issues arise, they are dealt with (to borrow a term from Shriver) through “negotiations”; by which she means group sessions that end in emotional consensus. This is not what men mean when they are asking about having a gender peace. Peace, to men, means drawing a line in the sand, and declaring an end to all hostilities as long as nobody crosses the line. There are no renegotiations of boundaries, except as a prelude to the inevitable reopening of the conflict. The hallmark of a good peace agreement among men is that both sides feel that they got less than they might have been able to get by continuing to fight, but that the decrease in risk by ending the conflict was worth it. This is why you see so many posters here against the establishment of such a peace. They don’t like where the line in the sand would end up, and they don’t think the risks of continuing to fight outweigh the possible benefits.

That ranged a lot further than I initially intended, but I think it may be of some use in understanding this mess.

Arbitrary

They don’t like where the line in the sand would end up, and they don’t think the risks of continuing to fight outweigh the possible benefits.

That’s right.
Men know that we need to fence women in if the future shall be worth it.

We can start our own movement. We can gain momentum and attention and word will spread. Our society isn’t neccessarily ready for this movement but it is ripe for change as has been discussed above. People are unhappy and we may or may not have the path for them to follow to obtain a better life, but I want to try. Set any baggage on a shelf and let it simply push your writings and not be the voice of them. I also believe it should begin with women changing first. I will push for these results. I’ll handle the women, you all handle the men. Get them to climb down off of the fences. Get them to lay down their guns. This is our time and our lives and our culture and we can take it back out of the hands of fools. Let’s end feminism, it has long since lost it’s value.

That sounds like a female trying to take over by ‘surrendering’. <_<

I agree with Finsalscollons that men are programmed to please women. But it does not have to be that way for all a man’s life. There are other parts of the brain. For sure in youth the the situation is near hopeless but with age so comes a little capacity to rise above this self destructive instinct to please women.

In the gym I exercise in the owner has put up a few very interesting signs. One reads ‘You are old too soon and smart too late’. This is a terrible truth. But the point is you can get smart even if it is too late. May be only in one’s dying breath can this be achieved, but in that moment perhaps for the first time one becomes a Man.

Would not it be good here if we could help each other to become a Man even if that is in our last breaths?

Paul November 6, 2009 at 1:53 am

Remember foreign women are not attracted the western me because they think we are wonderful and their ideal love, but because they think we are a better economic bets.

***
fixed.

Do confuse yourself. This has been fact across cultures since time immemorial: Men seek youth & beauty. Women seek security.

Remember foreign women are not attracted the western me because they think we are wonderful and their ideal love, but because they think we are a better economic bets.

Cynicism does kill love.

I know that I am attracted to my Western man because I think he is awesome and I love him. He is not an economic bet at all. I would still love him if we were paupers, and we have faith that we would stick through thick and thin, go through the apocalypse together if need be.

And I was able to fall in love with him thus, and he was able to fall for me, because although both of us have been burned by love in the past, we remained open to it. Neither of us is filled with hatred, anger, bitterness or resentment toward any gender or group of people. We may be saddened, temporarily frustrated or annoyed, but we remain in love and light, a spiritual kind of inner peace.

“Puma November 6, 2009 at 6:25 am
Wow! Excellent analysis finsalscollons. Please preserve your post as an essay (either in a blog or in one of the MGTOW message board; it will surely make a classic). It describes very clearly where things stand now.”

Agreed! Awsome post summarizing da’ truth!

Since some women seemed focused on concrete solutions to a complex problem, I would like to add the list below -Legalize prostitution-

-Repeal quotas at the workplace-
-Repeal equal pay acts-
-Do away with alimony in divorce-
-Change No fault divorce laws-
-End male only draft-
-Legalize prostitution-

It brings fair market value to the pussy, and stops the pussy monoply allowed by our laws.

Dave from Hawaii-

In an attempt to fully understand your thought paradigm on economics and politics, because I accept you are far more studied in those areas than I, do you give much credence to the ideas discussed in “Guns, Germs, and Steel”?
I’m just wondering, so as to see if we have more common ground to see eye to eye on in terms of these issues? If you are familiar with the book, keep in mind that I think it is an oversimplification of the reality, as I believe individual merit, especially in the modern era, affects history to a greater degree than the book would imply, but I feel it is an important paradigm changing analysis for the development of civilizations. I’m just trying to get you on this front. Please take my interest as a compliment.

I have probably made too many posts already on this thread. But it just occurred to me not to post an answer to ‘What men want’, but instead say what is is that men are FORBIDDEN. What men are forbidden is sex without guilt or responsibility.

I wont post again on this thread but would be happy to see what others think.

Paul-

I think men can have sex w/o guilt or responsibility if they’re willing to break the law and pay for it (in this country) or travel to where such things are legal. Just be sure to take precautions as far as safe sex. (Which you should do anyway, regardless of who you’re having sex with.)

“Support sex-segregated schools. Studies show girls tend to do about the same or marginally better when sex-segregated rather than mixed, while boys show significant improvement in verbal development when sex-segregated.
Support competitive school environments (at least for boys). Nothing has hurt the education of Western children more than the removal of competition from the educational system.”

Can’t believe I missed the above idea for practical immediate change. This is a huge issue to me.

Current list:

-Sex segregated schools/competition for male students-
-Fix date rape laws-
-Gender neutrality of domestic abuse shelters-
-Repeal quotas at the workplace-
-Repeal equal pay acts-
-Do away with alimony in divorce-
-Change No fault divorce laws-
-End male only draft-
-Legalize prostitution-

Did I miss anything else?

Jabherwochie

Current list:

-Sex segregated schools/competition for male students-
-Fix date rape laws-
-Gender neutrality of domestic abuse shelters-
-Repeal quotas at the workplace-
-Repeal equal pay acts-
-Do away with alimony in divorce-
-Change No fault divorce laws-
-End male only draft-
-Legalize prostitution-

Repeal Title IX.

I agree on sex-segregated classrooms. Someone on here should cover that topic. Of course, the set of circumstances needed to allow sex-segregation would, ironically, mean there wasn’t as much of a need for one in the first place; in other words, if we lived in a less male-hostile world, there would be less need for sex segregation in the first place (the needs of boys would already be largely met). This is also why it’s rather severely doubtful we’ll ever see this situation implemented. It would require an admission that we’ve been massively failing boys – and that we wanted to do something about it. As we’ve seen (the “Shriver Report” being just the latest example in a very long line), feminists generally take male disenfranchisement to equate to female empowerment. They’re perfectly content with how things are. Besides, sex segregation would also be an admission that there are innate differences between the sexes, and that strikes at the heart of another PC bugaboo: “equality” among the sexes. That’s another major strike against sex segregated classrooms getting off the ground.

I realize that the status quo would still freak the fuck out, but segregated classrooms + mandatory uniforms would seem to be a low-impact way to benefit both genders. Everybody would get the same teachers, same facilities, same curriculum…

By the way classrooms should NOT be racially segregated, just separate by gender.

””””””’As for those who say that there are lots of none western women and they are to be preferred. Well may be but I think you should be warned that although they may in a sense be ‘traditional’ they will still want to have children and your function will be to provide. Remember foreign women are not attracted the western me because they think we are wonderful and their ideal love, but because they think we are a better economic bets. I know some men want the ‘traditional’ role but I am not one of them.

””””””””’

But you have swallowed the coolaid of feminism and know nothing.

“Western women don’t want peace. Why should they? They’ve almost won.”

No. There is no “winning” this.

This is scorched earth. Nobody wins, everybody loses, men in the short term and women in the long term. If women “won,” it was a pyrrhic victory in the truest sense.

“The genie is not going back into the box. It can’t, really. As your post points out, men have a few options open to them, and need to pick one. But the West, as far as it has been known in the past, is effectively finished. It will persist in name, likely, but will morph into a different civilization. That process of morphing is, of course, already underway.”

I don’t understand why people think that, somehow, trends are irreversible. This very same genie was put back in the lamp time and again. The crucial thing here seems to be the time it takes to do so. It will not happen today or tomorrow. A lot of time will pass, and many other civilizations will surpass the west, climax and then crumble themselves, but the west will get its turn again.

Western man has demonstrated that he is genetically capable of erecting a powerful civilization. All the dysgenic breeding in the world will not completely eliminate that potential, and as the west’s situation deteriorates, the sheer number of attempts by western men who carry that potential in them will eventually result, merely through statistics and the law of large numbers, in a revival of civilization in the west. Jesus did not emerge out of nowhere, prophets preaching very similar messages were around since time immemorial (for one such, though unsuccessful, example, read up on Mazdak of ancient Persia), it just so happened that Jesus hit the sweet spot of history where his attempts at reviving civilization could eventually flourish. The west will eventually produce more Jesuses (Jesii?) and one of them will eventually be successful yet again.

This is why I don’t buy into all the panic about irreversible damage to the west. Claiming that that is the case is like claiming that the sun will not rise tomorrow. It will, but depending on how patient you are, you will consider it a distant impossibility (if you have the patience of a mosquito) or a certain inevitability (if you have the patience of a mountain).

What western men here and now must decide is whether they will split with the current, terminally ill west and go their individual ways (through expatriation), or stay and just do whatever they want while they watch the fireworks.

“I guess, when I see successful people and unsuccessful people, or successful groups and unsuccessful groups, I see a confluence of factors that go far beyond just merit. To think that randomness, ie. luck, does not affect the outcomes of our lives is naive. Some great men end up in the gutter, some loosers end up powerful and rich. Genetic superiority is just one element in a tapestry of elements that predict success. When I see people with more than me, I see it as perfectly fair that I demand part of what they have, and perfectly fair that they refuse to give it to me. How that plays out, again, will be determined by a tapestry of elements, many of them beyond our control. If you haven’t infered, I’m a proponent of class warfare, for the simple reason I already feel that it is being waged by the rich on everyone else, covertly as they can make it. Doesn’t mean I’m a commi-socialist, just that I feel the gap between the haves and have nots has grown into an unsurmountable chasm (hey, a new oxymoron). I know many will disagree.”

Ah, but one must never be limited to a short time-frame (and I consider a single human lifetime a short time-frame).

Though idiots who deserve worse than death might, through a sheer stroke of luck or caprice of fortune, come upon riches which they do not deserve, their sons or grandsons will, if they do not better themselves, squander it.

No resource is infinite. It might be too much to squander in a single generation, but it will eventually peter out, no matter how infinite it might seem to you at the moment.

Consider, for example, the Ottoman Empire. Through sheer fortune, they landed on a geographical goldmine, controlling both the silk road and the mediterranean for a long time. There were those who could see their ineptitude and hubris even in the early 16th century, but all they could do was gnash their teeth and quietly seethe for the time being. It was not until the early 20th century that the Ottoman Empire finally got its comeuppance, and got its comeuppance big.

Fortune might delay this comeuppance, but everyone’s luck runs out sooner or later. Nobody is innately favored by got or the odds. Eventually, the undeserving will fall from grace, and the deserving will ascend to power. This, in short, is divine justice. It kicks all those who are undeserving in the nuts, it just needs to warm up longer for some, so that it might kick them in the nuts all the harder.

And realize that the whole “class warfare” thing is a ploy by certain academics to dethrone ruling elites and place themselves on top (a la Animal Farm). There is no class warfare, and members of the various classes have been very fluent throughout history. A bad investment demotes a member of the bourgeoisie to the proletariat just as much as a stroke of genius catapults a proletarian to the bourgeoisie. The rich will of course try to keep their riches for as long as possible, but eternal domination of one class through the other is a pipe dream, a strokes of luck and the ascendance of the deserving results in an ever-fluid class dynamic (which is also one of the tenets of evolution).

*favored by God

I need to lay off the raki.

That was a good read and I do not bother about minor differences.

Freedom means a huge middle class – something that women find boring – but men love to have a tranquil homebase, where they can relax. Women who believe that men are at their service when returning from their jobs need to be heavily corrected. It’s the other way around.

A good woman is measured upon her ability to work for benefit of her husband. She should never expect otherwise!

“Ah, but one must never be limited to a short time-frame (and I consider a single human lifetime a short time-frame).”

And this is why I come here; to learn new perspectives. Great point.

My sins then are impatience and envy. I still want rich peoples money now, because I’ve got a lot of buisness ideas, ideas my progeny will not have or will be too late for them. I could be a single man economic stimulus plan. Old money rich people think so “in the box”. I don’t think genius or drive gets passed from one generation to the next without it becoming severely watered down pretty quick. Does Einsteins son deserve credit for the theory of relativity. DNA, on purpose, gets jumbled up each time its passed to the next generation. I don’t find children of the rich deserving of their parents spoils. I accept my irrational selfishness, but it being “irrational selfishness”, I will continue to act upon it (which is a polite way of saying, “I reject your reality and replace it with my own.”)

CLASS WARFARE NOW AND FOREVER!!

BTW: I grew up around a lot of rich people. That obviously has emotionally influenced me.

“And realize that the whole “class warfare” thing is a ploy by certain academics to dethrone ruling elites and place themselves on top ”

You do realize I consider myself an academic. I can’t help it if I’m more equal than everyone else. And you don’t have to share in my unearned spoils, since you seem so intent on being less equal.

I kid. You made good points I will chew on.

You do that, I’ll keep on waiting for father time and mother nature to work their magic.

As a human being I realize that all the riches in the world will never lead to absolute happiness and bliss, and envy will only lead to misery and unhappiness, so I will simply wait until, under wise guidance and armed with superior genetics, my offspring eventually dethrone the misbegotten kind of Paris Hilton and her ilk.

Rather than become a pawn in the game of the likes of Marx and Engels (themselves elites who were favored by fortune) and expending myself struggling against a bulwark which god, fate or randomness put up, I will lay low, do the best I can and find happiness not in schadenfreude but in my own accomplishments on my own terms.

Hell, I am still young, I might still be the one to dethrone them myself, but I won’t tempt fate the way the Paris Hiltons of this world do. Do it once and you might get away, twice and you might just survive, three times and I hope you remembered to pack a paddle, for you’ll be taking a tour of scenic shit creek.

I guess it’s part of my German upbringing, but I still believe in their old saying “In der Ruhe liegt die Kraft,” which, translated, roughly means “in patience lies power.”

The frantic and fast may dash forward, but eventually reality will present them with an obstacle which proves insurmountable for them, and those who move systematically and slowly will crush them under their treads and move on.

The fly may zip around from pile of dung to pile of dung, but the spider slowly spins its web without any hurry or rush. And we all know who comes out on top in that confrontation.

I think the choice between the ivory tower academic and Joe the plumber is a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Welmer November 6, 2009 at 4:02 pm

Chill out, guys. This is just an online thread. If you’re going to spar, no low blows.

***
Nope, let’em hash it out BUT using facts and logic.
This is what men do.

Zed:
Exactly how old are you?
My significant relationships were with men eight to twenty years older than myself. I have lived with and owned property with two men for a total of ten years. I am not bewildered at all by certain men not being affeted by my romantic, even pathetic prose. I have been smacked off of my feet by a man, I have been spit on by man, I have been neglected by a man, I have been played by a man, I have been left standing on a corner while pregnant by a man, I have been verbally, emotionally and psychologically abused by men. I would venture to say that I have been harmed more by men than most of the men who comment on these blogs by women. I am not an idealist. I am a realist. And in my reality those betaings, those kisses stolen under my eyes and behind my back , and the forgotten birthdays, and the punched holes in the dry wall, and the drunken fights that end with someone sleeping at a hotel, and the blood, sweat and tears shared with those men are all worth the LOVE that was exchanged and felt with them. Love is a reality and I have been fortunate enough to have experienced it. I have experienced love because I have bowed to it. It is everything that one would read about. I know men. I know them becasue I have spent years, intimately with them. I do not ask what you guys want from women emotionally. I ask what you, as men, want from women in today’s day and age. What do you NEED? What will help you raise yourselves higher than where you are now? What will add value to your lives and can women assist in your journey/goals? What do you like about us? You have not been with the right woman if your leg was blown off. There is no reason an exchange or relationship should have escalated to the point of no return with massive permanent damage resulting. You should have gotten out sooner. I put it ALL on the line and invested for YEARS and still lost. And yet I still believe in and seek love. Because mixed in with everything else there was ecstasy and intimacy and moments where time stopped and everything was perfect. To lose that and to now live without it will be what does me in personally. I can choose to block myself and carry resentment and let it bulid to a level that prevents me from ever loving again. Or I can choose not to.

I can’t speak for guys like Roissy and Roosh but I suspect they are happy with what they do. Players are players. Some have ADD, some have an insatiable appetite for variety, some have a power/control fetish, some are deeply insecure and have to prove to other men that they are “manly” by fucking a lot of women, some were not brought up in good homes with good parenting, some just like sex….or whatever else may contribute to their lifestyle choices. If they’re happy and having a good time, carry on, in my opinion. Roosh is young (younger than I) so it sounds like he’s just out having fun. He knows how to fuck women but I would guess he has never lived with one, therefore his knowledge of them is limited. Roissy is older from what I can tell and he seems to enjoy himself just as much, but also seems to have had a couple of long-ish relationships. He writes of girls with some truthful insight. I have no bones with either of them. Roissy is quite funny actually and is a fantastic writer. I think at times, they give absolutely rotten advice to men who could go either way in life (player or relationship with a quality woman) and that’s a shame, but in the end it’s the guy’s choice. They are just examples that don’t apply to this thread or topic.

Maybe it is all doomed and I should just leave the country because my values are too “old-fashioned” and I wish to please my man and run a good house and raise my kids well. I’m not sure yet. I honestly believe there are more women out there that want these same things and are just looking for someone(s) to speak up on the topic and give them reason to believe it’s possible.

I appreciate your patience and your chatting with me on this. I conclude that bitchy, feminist women, and bitter, angry men have never been truly in love. I supspect many, many people don’t know how to give love and will spend the rest of their lives without it. I wish to show them how to love and THAT will help ease the tensions between the sexes. Here’s to hoping…cheers.

DNA studies showed that aboout 80% of women of yore managed to reproduce as opposed to 40% of men

Which means they were subjected to less selective pressure. Which, in turn, means, they are less evolved — i.e. more primal in their urges. No surprises there.

In segregated environments, girls and boys may develop without the skills to interact with one another naturally, making dating and relationships even more difficult and awkward than they already are in contemporary society.

Ass-backwards, elitist-egalitarian sociology in action.

It’s actually like that “sexual revolution” thingie, Deborah*. Elites say, “hey, we’re all equal, we can all have wonderfully romantic lives.” Then, 5 decades, umpteen million abortions, and millions of destroyed or miserable lives later we see that when “whatever floats your boat” is made the norm, only the bad boys and sluts float their boats, the rest end up sitting on the bench.

Right at the ripe time when they should be concentrating on learning mental discipline (primarily, curbing their primal instincts) they are thrown into the “learn how to date boys/girls” game, a significant number of them get scarred right there and then, learning right in their teens that they are not “popular,” that most of them don’t even have a shot with the other sex. And women like you, who probably didn’t have that hard a time finding dates (because a) probably you’re good looking, otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about this so comfortably, b) you’re a girl and all you have to do is to accept/decline offers**) dole out “let them eat cake” advice to others.

–

* The IQ problem is another case in point. All elites now smear and ostracize who so much as mentions it since “we’re all equal, given enough opportunity, we can all be what we want” makes life easier for them. What’s not to like in a race where a 100 yards world class sprinter gets to compete with a 250 lbs slob? So, the classes are either dumbed down, and No Child Gets Ahead, or dumber ones are forced to study material they’ll never get, ending up with learned helplessness plus few productive skills. And the elites still send their kids to private schools where the screening procedures are proxy IQ tests, while scoring points for holding the moral higher ground that they are “anti-discriminatory.”

** I’m sure you will give us a “I had a rough time, too” speech about this.

Abject Man November 6, 2009 at 11:07 pm
DNA studies showed that aboout 80% of women of yore managed to reproduce as opposed to 40% of men

Which means they were subjected to less selective pressure. Which, in turn, means, they are less evolved — i.e. more primal in their urges. No surprises there

If You ar eimplying that Men are more involved and less primal, I think You’re right.

LOL!

Sorry, edited

Ragnar November 7, 2009 at 4:06 am
Abject Man November 6, 2009 at 11:07 pm
DNA studies showed that aboout 80% of women of yore managed to reproduce as opposed to 40% of men

Which means they were subjected to less selective pressure. Which, in turn, means, they are less evolved — i.e. more primal in their urges. No surprises there

If You ar eimplying that Men are more evolved and less primal, I think You’re right.

LOL!

@anoukange…
You do realize that the more you post the more you paint yourself as the poster child for what we despise in women, right? Read any site where men discuss women and the main complaint that guys have is that women choose bad boys early in life and then yearn for a “nice guy” to clean up the mess.

And don’t try to spin it. You tried to call the behavior of the men YOU CHOSE “alpha”. Please. Don’t pee on our backs and tell us that it’s raining.
This behavior is the very definition of “bad boy”. Before you try and argue, don’t. We, as men, will assign the definitions. Not you. You will not change our minds.

Don’t bother playing the “growth” card either. We see right past that. You haven’t outgrown anything. The only thing that you have outgrown is the ability to attract the bad boys and the drama that you so desperately crave. This is due to advancing years and fading looks. So now you cry out into cyberspace looking for a nice beta guy to clean up your mess. Maybe you will find a sucker out in the real life. But you won’t find one here. We are onto your game. Attempts to argue/spin/beg will either fall upon deaf ears, or be met with blunt rebuttals. Thanks to the internet more and more men are coming to the understanding that whatever a woman is attracted to at age 12 is what she will be attracted to the rest of her life. There is no growth.

Which brings me to lovelysexybeauty.

Reading comprehension and math aren’t your strong suits, are they? Can you even grasp what we are discussing here? Do you even have a basic understanding of what is going on?

One more time. And I will type slowly, because I know you can’t read that fast. That wayback machine that you are so anxious to fire up works for both men and women. If you want to compare us to, and have us men fill the roles of men from days of yore, then you women get to do the same. So how far back should we dial that bad boy?

Which brings us to exactly what we are talking about here. If you pay attention to my math breakdown, we are severly outnumbered. If you pay attention to the posts and responses to anoukange, today’s woman is of very low quality. If you pay attention to the rights that men DON’T have, we have no investment in this society.

You want this shit fixed? You fix it. Save your “win one for the gipper” speeches for football games.

LOL!
Zenpriest, You are the master of patience and I admire it.

To me there is only to put on the armor and go to war, like Harry says!

There has always been a population of treacherous women. It wouldn’t be such a bad thing, though, if we didn’t reward their behavior and punish their victims.

Zed:
I still believe. And I suppose I will until the last drop of goodness is wrung from me by the hate that many carry in their hearts. Thank you and eventhough you say you’re older than dirt I still find you handsome

to all:
men and women are to blame. I was hoping to stimulate conversation in the direction of healing but I guess the scars are too deep for most here. my apologies for such ridiculousness on my part. good luck, whether you go it alone or with someone beside you.

Oh, and I wanted to clarify that I was trying to express that women love men for what men make us feel. That often has nothing to do with material or practical things they give us. It usually has more to do with the way they relate to us–whether that means “the look” or the kind of sex we enjoy or the teasing banter that happens at the beginning of a relationship that often fades after a commitment.

The biggest problem I see in the marriages around me is complacency on the part of both men and women once that commitment has been made.

Is there a picture of zed about, or am I taking things too literally?

Is there a picture of zed about, or am I taking things too literally?

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/03/the-art-of-loving-2-why-western-women-are-so-empty-unhappy/#comment-8179

Geez, I missed that picture.

Looks like a mullah!

See, Zed? You could have totally posted the full frontal, and Welmer wouldn’t have even noticed it.

Jean Auel? I remember reading. She’s very verbose. Only got as far as Valley of the Horses.

[spoiler]
You sure she wasn’t ‘you go grrl’ with her ‘a woman invented everything, including fire, and survives improbably on her own. And possible little for-the-heck-of-it symbolism of patriarchy in Clan of the Cave Bear?
[/spoiler]

kis: Jean Auel’s not unentertaining writing, you understand. Just got distracted by other books.

But you would have been all eyes, drooling all over yourself, wouldn’t you?

As soon as fedrz stops being your wingman, I might.

Dude, I never invited him to the party. You think he’s gonna listen to me when I tell him to give us some privacy?

kis: Jean Auel’s not unentertaining writing, you understand. Just got distracted by other books.

LOL. Hard not to get distracted when the woman takes ten pages to say ANYTHING. I couldn’t get past the first few chapters. If I was her editor, those books would be half as long as they were.

Zed has more blog groupies than Roissy!

Nothing sexier than a man who wants nothing to do with you, don’t you know? He’s like Spock. We dream of chipping through his layers of ice to find the fire underneath. Rowr!

Are you listening, Zed? OMG, take me now! LOL

I should point out that the inability for Indian women to mature past the age of 12 in terms of understanding the issues at hand is a uniquely Indian female trait.

Other conservative cultures still don’t produce such handicapped women. Bhetti, for example, is a Muslim who also does not date much, and is only 20 (several years younger than LSB), but is probably the wisest and most deep-thinking woman here.

The Indian pathologies are unique.

LOL!!

Do Western Women Want Gender Peace?

Er… no. Ask one me on sport.

I can’t believe I’ve spent all night reading this thread, and some v interesting posts, but not one has mentioned the uniform black and white nature of the argument, and this is precisely the fault with feminism as a whole: ie that all men are baaaad and all women are good. So, let’s adopt the MRM view that all men are good, and all women bitches… really… now.

There’s so much about this argument that pisses me off… but if Hope wants to come over and sit on my knee and play “bouncy-bouncy”, then I’ll be nice and placid

zed wrote :

but when the end of their high SMV years comes and they start looking around as a stable beta provider as their “Plan B”, there simply won’t be any available.

I call this the ‘Wile E. Coyote moment’.

The reason women are vulnerable to this now is that in the old days, the steady hand of the mother and grandmother knew that the girl’s beauty was short-lived, and thus made sure she got married off to a good man early. Now, however, no one is there to tell a woman how quickly her looks will fall off, and she is thus entirely unprepared for how much male attention she loses in just the 4 years from age 31 to 35.

Online websites like match.com make women even more vulnerable, since the 2:1 male:female ratio allows many average-looking women to get a lot of interest from guys, which they falsely interpret as a measure of their marriage prospects (that too off of photos of the woman that are 5 years old). Hence, the Wile E. Coyote moment is even more stealthy due to the artificial simulation from a skewed ratio that match.com and other sites create for a woman.

Separately,

Zed, you look like a mujahideen jihadi. Alpha. Condemn feminism from a pretend Islamic point of view, and feminists will NEVER retaliate against anything you say. Multiculturalism is their Achilles heel.

And, I wouldn’t have lost that one except for the right-wing religious assholes in bed with the feminists.

BAD VISUALS! BAD VISUALS!

I think what I would want from women or like to see more openly displayed is a form of ‘acknowledgement’ of the things men do, that has nothing to do with the present day demand (which is that men should be more domestically trained).

I see myself as a layman, my background is very practical and I enjoy all pastimes related so. I don’t think women really appreciate how much men have done in this sense, well I don’t feel it. Take a look around you. Just walking down any street or taking a panoramic view of a city, guaranteed it is men that have given their hard graft and sweat to build what you see.

Next time you walk past a construction site ladies, pay your respects, those men are working damn hard to build your cosy offices. See those rows and rows of old Victorian houses (initiated by the policies of men, to end all squalour centuries ago)? Think about how much men have built, physically. Not a day goes past where I do not think this, and it makes the world an even more amazing place on this realisation. It becomes unfathomable when you consider the scale of building that ensued after WWII also. Many parts of e.g., London, totally rebuilt after being blitzed.

And all the great engineering feats conquered (Brunel) so we can travel city to city?

Though I doubt these kind of acknowledgements of men’s physical contribution will ever occupy the mainstream as many of our worlds are now service-industry led, and even men tend to ‘forget’ how much their brethren is contributing to the wheels of society, laying the ‘foundations’, literally. Men’s physical contributions are taken for granted too easily, in the same way women would feel their housework is taken for granted too easily. It’s a parallel I don’t see acknowledged by women.

More and more, if I use the above argument, then to me, women’s roles become reduced, and in the physical/material world I live in, I equate a lot of women’s existence as just ‘occupation’. Not that I want women to become builders, but more the fact I want to see and hear ‘acknowledgement’ coming from the sisters. I want to hear women acknowledging the fact that men build them shelter, build them cities, build them infrastructures and so on. My god, look at the London Underground, what a masterpiece (although many will disagree), but what an amazing piece of engineering. All those men years gone by, tunneling away under the sewers of London. Come to think of it, who built the sewers..? Stop once in your busy lives to consider what’s around you and the efforts involved, men at the fore. Pay your respects.

Acknowledgement of these feats on all levels would actually boost a nations pride and bolster its culture, something slowy being eroded by differences in industry values.

You have to start from the bottom and build up and that is what men do. Another example is here in the UK, everyone has gone ‘property-mad’, programmes galore on how to buy or renovate property (now recession affected). But sometimes I’ve seen the projects ‘couples’ undertake, and the work the men take on is baffling, literally building a whole house. And then comes the interview – ‘Yeah, I’ll see what the missus says, she’s the lady of the house’. Also when couples go to look at property, the guy is always thinking about the lady’s wants and like a cowering idiot is always dictated to by her whims. Never have I witnessed ‘love’ to be so conditional other than in the arena of property buying/selling, amazing.

Back to my request to the ladies. It was probably your Grandaddies that built a lot of the amenities you are privileged to. Gonna have a pop at your man, gotta beef to settle? Stop a moment and think of him as one of the many who put in hours of unconditional effort of hard toil, long hours, hard graft. Acknowledge this fact more wisely, praise it, as much as you would wish your housework to be praised. Never undervalue anything but look to the real efforts involved, try deconstructing what a builder or any worker does in a day.

I’ve never, ever, heard a woman praise the constructions, the infrastructures around us that men have built, pretty architecture, maybe, but for artistic reasons mostly.

I think this form of ‘acknowledgement’ women should display is one step towards regaining respect for men. That’s what women wanted with housework right? They seemed to have got it. I’m not asking women to start talking nuts and bolts to keep their man happy, they’d probably find it boring, but if you just respected more what’s happening around you, you might look at men in a different light.

(Hope this displays correctly as I’m looking at previews and it’s massive and bold (?))

zed-Point taken. Shaming language drives me batty in general, but especially here, thus why I opened my big mouth.

kis-So yeah, things change after marriage, but I really do think the changes in the little demonstrations of love–not so much the sex–are the true death of a marriage.
I’d personally say it’s immaturity, inflexibility, poor communication, and a fear of change that kills a marriage, when the little bits of love that used to be make way for something else. Life is always changing in general, so why wouldn’t this hold true in our expressions of love as well. They mature and might become more practical and whimsical, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Maybe they aren’t in words anymore but silent appreciation and little practical actions. But they might still be there if somebody takes the time to look and honestly consider their partners actions and accept who they are.

Instead of getting upset over changes, taking a step back and considering all your partner does for you would be much more beneficial. Being thankful for what you have and honestly looking at the big picture and seeing what they do that really does say “I love you” even if it might not be in the way you prefer. Maybe a husband isn’t the random gift buying type anymore but he is the sort of man who cleans up the bathroom floor when food poisoning strikes you. Maybe cute little poems have stopped because he’s working longer hours. Maybe he feels unloved and appreciated because you have never taken the time to ask him, or better yet really listen to what would make him feel loved.

For example: My husband used to write me gushy love letters from the Middle East when we first met, but these were few and far between during the last deployment. Some would say it’s because he loves me less, but that’s not true at all. He is at a higher rank now, a more dangerous job, and has more responsibility. His time and head need to be at his job and down on earth with his soldiers, not up in the clouds of lovey dovey land.

This change made way for another one that surprised me to say the least, when my husband thanked me in front of many people we know for making his deployment a success, being his pillar of strength back home, and keeping him very dear in the mind and heart of our daughter. This was very out of character for my husband, which makes his action all the more special. Both of us have matured in our expressions of love, as well as the gratefulness we feel for having each other and the forgiveness we feel when the other goofs up.

Being grateful for you do have and forgiving towards others in important, as is assuming they have the best of intentions. Not only is conflict avoided but much heart ache and grief as well. For the appearance of complacency to destroy a marriage, other factors must be in existence as well.

Lethargio

It doesn´t stop with buildings. I recently read a piece about midwifes. Despite the fact that they have been around for millenia, none of the instruments that are used in giving birth today, where invented before men, through their education, entered the delivery room.

I see myself as a layman, my background is very practical and I enjoy all pastimes related so. I don’t think women really appreciate how much men have done in this sense, well I don’t feel it. Take a look around you. Just walking down any street or taking a panoramic view of a city, guaranteed it is men that have given their hard graft and sweat to build what you see.

My dad was a heavy-duty mechanic. He dabbled in carpentry, plumbing and electrical stuff at home, turned our basement from a huge concrete cell into a cozy, habitable living space. I used to love watching him work on the car or install electrical outlets or tile floors–I learned most of my best curse-words while filling the position of “flashlight holder” for him. I developed my love of building things, hard physical labor, the intricacies of construction from those experiences.

As an adult, I love doing those things, but even more, I love watching a man doing them. It’s to the point that a man’s hands are his #1 attraction for me–the more scars and calluses the better.

I think women really take the work their men do for granted. They tell their husband “I want a frog pond–make it look like this!” And the men do it. I tell those women, “Yeah, I want laminate flooring in my living room, and if I want it done my way, I do the work.” Final say should go to the one who’s putting in the sweat, not the one who’s only contribrution is leafing though home decorating magazines. But at its best, it’s a compromise where both parties have a say and both share the work. And I think women would have a better appreciation for that work if they were expected to heft a wheelbarrow once in a while. Am I wrong?

(think of that show ‘Dirty Jobs’ for a good selection of this work),

Dirty Jobs is my favorite porn.

kis: you are welcome to enjoy my desk (Secretary anyone?)

ftumch, if you ever visit the wilds of Norther BC, bring your desk.

Ida and Pingala must be united.

For all the times I’ve heard women say how much they appreciate a hard-working man who does physical labor, in my experience such men are the most likely to be left by their wives, and the soft-handed, upper-middle class professionals the least likely to be ditched (although plenty of them get it, too).

Quite possibly so. But for me, I adore blue collar men. I want a man who has to wash his hands with varsol when he gets home, who has flecks of metal stuck to his wristwatch from welding, who knows how to handle a chainsaw.

I think the problem lies in the fact that I want a man who is my intellectual equal or superior, and that most women do as well. And most of the time, men with brains don’t work on road crews, they’re the civil engineers who design the roads. My dad could have had a career in engineering or automobile design–he actually modified several pieces of equipment on his worksite to improve their effeciency (though he never patented his modifications), and he still has the schematics in a trunk somewhere. He’s a brilliant man who chose to work with his hands and fed his brain in other ways.

That’s what I want. Oh yeah. Not easy to find, though. Sigh.

When a woman says that she wants a man who does hard physical labor the implication seems to be that:

1) He also has an ivy degree, is well-read and the life of every cocktail party.

2) He had a rich distant relative who just died and left him a few million dollars, cause there ain’t no way he’ll be able to afford all the other shit she wants if he fixes roofs for a living.

It basically seems to be the female equivalent of the popular “perfect 10/10 babe who knows how to cook, knows kung fu and can fire sniper rifles and mounted machine guns” fantasy that nerds have.

or is that gay? are mrm types in the closet? lol

now, thats sexist tupac…. can’y pick on the grrrls

Btw, some off-topic but very joyous news for those thinking about expatriating:

The supreme court of Turkey has decided that if a divorce is caused by a fault of the wife (ie she cheats on her husband) the husband can demand compensation from her because his “domestic peace” has been disturbed.

The court reached this decision after K.A.and F.A. had a divorce, and the husband sued his wife for compensation. He successfully argued that while they were married, his wife spread damaging rumors about him and left their home based on these ungrounded rumors alone (ie for no good reason), and that this should entitle him to compensation for the stress he has been put through.

After having this rejected by a local court, it went all the way to the supreme court, which argued that in a society where men and women are equal, it is impossible not to hold wives responsible for their behavior if it leads to a divorce, especially when wives reserve the same right for themselves.

My, how backwards those muslim countries are, right?

zed, I can’t help but admire your composure against such a sustained attack of syrupy sugar (with a hint of vomit in it, but that could just be the flavor in my mouth after reading what these women come up with). I think under similar circumstances I would have to swear off the net for a few days, just to recover my appetite. Full marks for showing a fellow cynic that his education is far from complete.

“In terms of family law, I don;t think they are backward at all. For example, the so-called (by Western feminists) “rape law” in Afghanistan that stated that a man was entitled to so much sex from his wife didn’t have a thing to do with forcible sex. It simply gave a man grounds to sue for divorce if his wife wouldn’t sleep with him.”

I am not sure (will have to delve a bit deeper into the case) but I think that played a role.

Of course the “usual suspects” (feminists/women’s rights activists and progressives) cried bitter tears of defeat over this decision, but tough shit.

In Turkey, the supreme court doesn’t have to worry about hurting anybody’s feelings. That is the beauty of equality which is not upheld by a democracy which prostitutes itself. Members of the supreme court (technically the correct name is “Court of Cassation,” but what the hell’s a cassation?) are elected by an assembly of lawyers and judges, so no pandering bullshit here.

@ kis (Hestia, Kimski)

“And I think women would have a better appreciation for that work if they were expected to heft a wheelbarrow once in a while. Am I wrong?”

Far from wrong, far from it but it’s the ‘expecting’ part which would get me into trouble. Probably end up face down in that fish-pond. I wouldn’t expect help anyway (that’s my hard-wiring), unless she wanted to help.

I would respect the acknowledgement you, ‘Hestia’ and ‘Kimski’ allude to, the understanding you’ve shown already through knowing what hard graft men have to endure. But like everyone has discussed, the attempts at reciprocity get misunderstood.

And the reasons why reciprocity is either non-existent or misunderstood is because there is no ‘acknowledgement’ in the first place to translate into some other form of giving – which could easily be ‘leeway’ instead of hot dinners. I’m not actually asking for hot dinners as acknowledgement. I’m asking for women in the present day not to come down so heavy on men, to demand more and more so subtly too, and more for women to acknowledge what men have done, have to do, have to endure. It is a starting point that allows us to exist without creating more demands. It’s like saying ‘well they have done/do enough already’ I suppose.

On hot dinners, probably some women are acting on auto-pilot. They’re not preparing a dinner because the husband has been out working but because they think it’s just what’s expected, hence the resentment. And then the routine brings things down on both sides.

And now with women in the workplace comes an additional demand of recognition from women.

Am glad to hear three rarities on here anyway acknowledging what’s been said (see, you had an outpouring of acknowledgement, it’s like making people aware, stoking the fire, but you’ll probably say you had it in you anyway, which you did, though dormantly). ‘kis”s childhood sounds cool, I reminisce.

So, it seems like men just have to ask for acknowledgement, shame we had to ask, or I need a louder megaphone, or ‘Anoukange’ can get printin’. Things like this need to be innate, internalised, made to exist in the culture. A most basic form of respect.

And ‘Hestia’ – “All of these men deserve appreciation as well.”. You’re right but it’s just not celebrated as well on a great scale, national, even. Mens graft and feats need bringing to the consumption blinkered masses, celebrated, rewarded. Haven’t seen ‘Dirty Jobs’ but hope it doesn’t have a mocking feel to it.

Timing out (time difference…)

“They thought he was dreamy.”

Kinda reminds of Zed.

The man shovels shit all day long, and chicks dig him for it.

“Shit Shoveler Game,” I suppose.

Part of gender peace may actually come from women exhausting themselves, e.g., opting for more part-time work arrangements than is currently happening now. But, I just can’t see part-time arrangements working that well considering women’s lifestyle impulses and the culture of consumption they can barely avoid, and the pressures it can offload onto men.

Maybe I just woke up sooner than the rest. I’m exhausted. I never wanted to work more than part time, and I still don’t. Even (or especially) now that I’m single, I resent the extra hours I may need to work to make ends meet–hours away from home and kids. Not only that, juggling everything is stressful, and that stress is felt by everyone around me.

The people in your life are always more important than the things in it. I’ve never owned a car worth more than $8000, or a piece of clothing more than $75. I don’t own or wear jewelry, either. It’s just not who I am.

I see women driving expensive SUVs and I think “Crap, that car payment is three hours a day she could be spending with her family instead of working!”

I honestly don’t get it, the choices women make these days. Enough should be enough, you know?

By the way, just read up some more… don’t feel the need to justify, but… my handle is a play on words of a favorite perfume – part of that perfume’s name doesn’t apply to me at all… the other two, I hope I am working towards them.

I spent a month trying to come up with something good for online, that’s catchy and fun. It’s not supposed to describe me as I am today… perhaps my hopes, certainly. Please don’t read too much into it.

I realize that only I am aware of the entire narrative of what I’ve posted on my blog, and comments on others… and I feel OK because 1) I’m living my reality and know what that is and 2) I feel like I’ve justified myself enough previously.

But you guys only see the little teeny slice of me from what I’ve commented here. Oh well… not much I can do about that at this point. Makes me more conscious on how to word what I say though, so less assumptions are made on where I’m coming from, my religiousity, my prior experiences that have shaped me, etc.

If someone doesn’t want to listen to me, no worries. I’m only trying to help myself… as in help myself in real life.

Also, I am aware of my own self-deception too. So?

Lastly, it was the Guy I am seeing seriously (marriage path) who made the comment about guys who talk about men’s rights sounding closeted gay. I removed my post because it did sound like I was trying to insult, I just found it interesting that a guy who is happy with his ability to get women (my Guy) would think that. I know that it came across as an insult… but why would that be an insult mm? What’s wrong with being gay?

My dearest Zed,
If I had been born in 1914, or 1843 or 1960, it wouldn’t matter what the sociological culture around me was to expect or say regarding marriage, sex and relationships. I believe in love. A beta (nice guy) left me on a street corner, crying while pregnant. An alpha held my hand while I got a bone reset and cradled me after I watched a very dear friend get struck and killed by a car. The mean guys can go soft and the nice guys can be dicks. It doesn’t matter what side of the line they claim to stand on. I swear on my own life, if I could, I would prevent any and all “drama” that comes with living. I have seen my share but not because I seek it. My argument was that with life and living comes pain, gauranteed. It’s a packaged deal. I do not require “drama” as you all refer to it, to feel that I am alive. Peace is just as alive. I have been sheltered somewhat from the dating wreckage because I was in a long term relationship based on love and trust and respect. Arthur was out of line with his attack. He misunderstood the point I was trying to make with acknowledging the bad behavoir of some of the men I have known. Arthur personally attacked me saying (among other things) that with my “advancing age and fading looks” that I was seeking someone to clean up the mess. I have read the commenting policy here at The Spearhead and that was a nasty, unwarrented personal attack, which I thought was not allowed. He wrote those words with much anger behind them. I do not seek drama BECAUSE I’ve had it. We all have. Men and Women. While it may not be ideal, I have a higher tolerence than most it would seem, to accept that it does happen between two people romantically involved. His OWN baggage and damage made him write that. He is wrong about me and I was expected to just sit and take it. I was expected to allow someone to mis-gauge me with their own blinders on and scold me openly on this thread. He made it personal. I have known great men and that is why I still believe in the greatness of the opposite sex. I am not damaged like most of you here. I am earnest and sincere and those are qualities that are vulnerable to have and are often laughed at. You wrote somewhere here that guys seemed to be damned if they do and damned if they don’t. What about someone like me? I am not dirtied nor am I a princess. Anger clouds the view of you men and I feel sorry for you. Your lives are more than halfway over and you have nothing but wreckage to look back on. I certainly would not seek advice from a website such as this one. I thought that I might, but not now that the curtain has been pulled back to expose the real voice of OZ and there is nothing but crumpled, jaded, spiteful old men projecting their own woes and ways onto their readers. I’m sure I will get shredded by guys for admittitng to my feelings getting hurt. I’m sure that they too will make it personal and I know many sit at the edge of their seats just waiting for the opportunities to sling shit at women so they can have the glory and fulfillment of publicly shaming us. If women are tough they are said to be cold and calculating and if they are sensitive they are said to be silly, childish and ridiculous. Damned if we do and damned if we don’t. If you get some down time, please do have a look-see into where I’m coming from, Zed. Could be that I too, am wise…hence the politeness and softness of my approach in life in general.

http://anoukange.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/as-you-wish/
http://anoukange.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/no-pussy-but-no-ass-either/

Zed:
so you approve of Arthur’s comment then?

We can compare the lives of men and women accross the board til the cows come home and it would most likely break even. I hold both men and woman resposible for their actions.

We are all fans of the writings and personalities of certain people posting, and if you are a fan of Hestia’s, then that’s splendid. If she has insight that can better represent you and others here then even better. I was asking questions not providing answers. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

You exclaim: “she sees it so clearly, why can’t you, anoukange?”

And I respond: “because Zed, I have not been dating men under 35, I have not been buring men with flaky, selfish behavior. I do not vlaue money over quality of life, I do not live for what others think of me. I am a hippie artist who has been poor, and then rich and then poor again. And because Zed, if at 32 I have managed to NOT become spiteful and jaded, aren’t I doing something right?” Explain how a girl, born in 1977 growing up in America (New York, no less) can still believe in love, treat men with kindness and respect, be on good terms with my exes and enter a room, a blog thread, or a conversation with a soft bow of respect to all who are there? (note: I have lost some respect here, so my tone is not one of softness) How did I not get caught up in feminism? How do I still believe that men and women are not equal and anyone who thinks so is destroying the beauty of those differences? How did I protect myself from the wrath of those who have too much life hanging from their skin?

It’s all in the mind set Zed. Adversity can be handled in any way one chooses. I left home at 16. I put myself through college. I was born poor and to parents too young to know any better. What I’ve been through doesn’t touch what my father had been through and his father before him. Can we as a society honestly say that the war of the sexes competes with the wars waged a hundred, two hundred years ago? My children will face things I never dreamed of (or nighmared of) and I hope to install in them a timeless set of strengths and values that will enable them to gracefully, kindly and successfully win their own battles with adversity. I got the sense that many who comment blame culture, the opposite sex, the media, the government, the fucking weather…and so on. MUCH of it is correct and is to blame, but hardships and communication break-downs are nothing new. I make one blanket statement on a thread that was littered with blanket statements and you jump on my back?

You mock my innocence (or ignorance, depends on who you ask) and seem bewildered as to why I couldn’t understand the anger straight away. Piercedhead actually patted you on the back for your patience. I ask you why you men cry, why you write what you do and you and others feel it is something to be admired to remain patient in explaining to a younger generation the roots behind it? Are you guys fucking kidding me? How about MY patience with previous generations slinging mud and name calling? You are my elders…my leaders…my wisemen. What an example to behold. Excuse me why I remain unimpressed.

It is your generation with its face in the pile of coke, and because my generation and ones inbetween us for some strange reason thought is was a cool sight, followed. You all go to the mattresses and this is the way to handle it? Maybe you should have stood up to the lousy women back then, maybe they should have stood up to their lousy men. Maybe you all should have never married. Maybe you all should have sought counseling. Maybe you should have smacked the bitch. Maybe you should have smacked the bitch’s mother. I’m not sure.

I won’t stop popping over here for a good read, I stand by my remarks of the intelligent and insighful writings that occur. But I won’t raise my hand and ask questions anymore because this school of knocks believes in stoning the student. Although, I now have my doubts as to who is the teacher and who is the student. I was only selling hope. And hope is superior to surrender.

anoukange

I think you´re making a mistake if you don´t see the difference between surrender and indifference. For myself, I´m just going to stand over here and watch you grrls destroy, what countless generations of men have built up, and I´m going to do absolutely zilch about it. As the Stones once put it: Time Is On My Side. There´s no matriachy in history that has survived for very long, so from my point of view it´s now just a question of being patient, not play the game, and wait. Eventually women are going to realize, that a society driven by women is an illusion of the worst possible kind, and can not sustain itself on it´s own for long. When women have absolutely nothing to put into the game but greed, bickering, and me-me-me, then there´s really no reason to play anymore, is there?…Think I´ll go fishing and hang out with the other guys instead. Let me know if you can persuade the vibrator and the cat to do the dishes and take out the trash, won´t you ?

@anoukange

I´ve been on the thread since day one, when you entered with your peace offer…
Consider that my answer.
NO peace.

zed

Ohhh, yeah, -you better believe it. And I bought the whole shit, -hook,line and sinker for a looong time. She used those marriages to move up in society. She was a real piece of work.

zed

Okay, I´m a boomer then. She was 20 years older, almost to the date. I´m 46, so…

Kimski- I cannot even begin to imagine how terrible these experiences were for you. My MIL who is a special sort of crazy shipped her children off to Hawaii when she decided to divorce my FIL. She didn’t tell them why they were leaving or when she’d come back for them but just left them with a relative they’d never met before who could only speak broken English all while my husband was the only one of the kids who could communicate with the family member in korean. In a rare sane moment in the family court system, my FIL was granted full custody of his children and didn’t have to pay a cent in alimony.

My husband attempted to give his mother a second chance to be in his life shortly before we got married nearly six years ago, but this didn’t go over well. Last fall she sent him an email while he was deployed demanding he choose between us (meaning myself and our daughter) or her. He responded and told her never to call him again and hasn’t had any contact with her since and doesn’t intend too. She’d surely be out of her mind without feminist ideology, but with its help she was able to harm her family more than she could have otherwise.

What feminism enables is just sick and seeing past the few pretty promises shouldn’t be that difficult for women to do.

single danish word…gotta start reading up on faults, soon.

kimski- How about a piece called: 2012-The End of Feminism ?
ha, that would be an excellent “ending of an era”. This could even qualify as an apocalypse to some, fulfilling the prophecies of a nutty few about this date.

On a serious note, thank you for sharing what you did. I’d like to think every time the real life effects of feminism are shown, by somebody expressing their anger, outrage, or pain, that maybe it helps chip down the wall of willful ignorance so many women want to hold onto as they cling so desperately to this ideology.

Feminists and their sympathized can argue against this all they want, but the fact is people are hurting, with wounds that will never fully heal, because of how out of check and unbalanced everything has become. People need to see this and acknowledge it. Contrary to what the culture at large thinks, men aren’t robots who do not feel any pain and can just take being stepped on and berated, over and over and over again.

zed-It seems that almost no one, women or men, want to hear that men are real human beings who are profoundly affected by the selfishness of others. They want us to be nice little robots who just do what we are told.

One of my biggest goals for whatever men end up doing, is demanding that people recognize men’s humanity.
This is a noble and important goal, one that should be at the front of the mind when contemplating the future IMHO. Telling men to “suck it up” just doesn’t cut it; look at the suicides and tragedy this attitude has brought us when it comes to the military. Surely “sucking it up” isn’t any different outside the base gates, just more easy to cover up and blame the effects on something else.

Hestia

Oh, did I tell you why she wanted a divorce from my dad?-She always told me it was because he beat her. She forgot to tell me that the reason he went nuke, were because he came home from work and found her in bed with a dance instructor. He told me years later…

How about a piece called: 2012-The End of Feminism ?

I have written such a piece (as a comment), but put the date at 2020.

http://fbardamu.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/the-apocalypse-is-coming-but-not-how-you-think/

ah…the gays and the internet birthed the word drama. I hate that word.

ok, sorry for the “drama” boys, didn’t see it that way. I was genuinely offended. If you need me to ‘toughin up’, then I shall try.

Welmer: jesus, you seemed so sweet. thanks for the kick in the ass. Do you know MY dad by chance?

Kimski: You see, we all just need to enter a brief bio before we explore such topics so we don’t get tangled up in nonsense and lose touch with the issues at hand. Sorry for your woes…and I’m not a feminist. Capiche?

Zed: our love is back on. and you can walk on those beaches by your self, just send me post cards.
re: issue at hand. I don’t know I guess. How does one approach such deeply nested wounds? If you were to talk to a shrink I would gather he/she would ask you to go back in time and illustrate how you got to where you are. There comes a point when so much sadness, disapointment, hurt, anger, etc. occurs that it either kills you or you re-birth, so to speak. My request to wipe the slate clean seemed reasonable given the overwhelming history you spoke of. If the “bad” women speak so loudly and so frequently, I thought, why not try to gather up women like myself who adore men and their attributes and togther we could flip the switch on the raging man haters out there. I’m in a weird spot here. I sympathize and even empathize with you and it is incredibly unfair. I’ve heard the stories from the woman’s side as well and men can be real dicks. hmmmm…
I had just assumed, all labels aside, that fierce, masculine women would marry/date soft, submissive men. And that soft, traditonally feminine women would marry/date strong, dominant men. The birds chirpped in this image and the earth spun on an even axis and all was right in the world. Then I left my long term relationship and entered the present day hell of reality and I was blind-sided.
I think the jig is up and less people believe in a god or afterlife so they have become a society of selfish a-holes that seize every moment of life for themselves and no thought of others. The money thing? A HUGE aspect to this whole thing. Why do people value money so much? I’m not sure. I also see where the virtue of selflessness got a bit sappy and people were being do-gooders for the same reason people care about money. Because they care so much about what others think of them. It became fake and just as selfish. and round and round we go.
At the risk of getting eaten alive, I belive there was a time and place for feminism, just like there was a time and place for affirmative action. Both are out-dated and this country has a real problem with phasing things out. FDR was a great president and stepped up to the plate at the time, but we are now screwed with many government programs that encourage laziness, mouching and down right stealing. Keep in mind, I live in DC. Wow…what a wreck of a “state” governement we have. I actually have to ride around with “taxation without representation” on my plates. So shameful.
but I digress…
anyhow…So women, back in the day were probaly being mis-represented a bit and we should have quite possible made a slight adjustment in that regard but like a lot of other things, it got over-corrected. Like I stated long, long, ago in the begining of this thread…the pendulum swung and it is high in the air on the opposite side right now.
What to do for future generations?
a.) teach kids that the differences between the sexes are beautiful, often funny and at best, can be very balanced when a man and a woman unite together.
b.) teach kids how to love. I mean truly love and don’t allow any of them to marry anyone until they are 40. I’m a big fan of not making any permanent decisions until the main growth/exploration phase has occured.
c.) teach kids to follow things through
d.) teach kids not to OD on anything, whether it be TV, food, sexual partners, drugs, consumerism…etc.
e.) other things that my brain can’t access at this hour

and for us? Well, that is so much harder. Because like it has been well documented, we are all scared, weary and dis-trusting.
for us…
a.) have mandatory “switch days of work” with your partner (anyone remember the movie Mr. Mom?) we seemed to have lost the ability to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes.
b.) only marry someone after a minimun of 8 years together. If you still want to get married the go for it.
c.) hand out foam bats to all couples making a go of it
d.) realize that life is LONG, not short and to spread out the highs and stop searching so hard for the next “fix” of excitement. Bring more zen into the den.
e.) teach ourselves to forgive.
f.) teach ourselves to juggle all of the balls we choose to carry.
g.) try to work through fears and to let the baggage go once and for all
h.) and unlearn all that we have learned and look at the world through innocent eyes again (ok, this one may be harder…that’s why “Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind” was such a brilliant movie)

I’ll come back to feminism again but it is easy to trail off…so many other things contributed to where we are at now.

and Zed, sweetie…the reason is was so easy for me to suggest we all wipe the slate clean is because eventhough I may not be sqeaky clean myself, I have not participated in the damage to men. That is a point the I have been trying to hammer home to YOU!! Why do I get blamed? I have had good, healthy realtions with men. I support them and love them and fight right along side of them. Please, please stiop including me in the resposibilty for the mess. I was off to the side in a long-term being a good woman to my man.

As a gen X’er I have definite scars from the excess of the times when I was born. I am 35, born in the mid 70′s. My parents split up when I was 2 or 3. I have some faded memories, but it was violent and tumultuous. My dad was a philanderer and my mom had a violent temper. Once they split up until I was 9 it was a game of hot potato as to who would keep me.

For a time around 79-80 my mom lived with a cocaine dealer. I lived with them for a short few months. My dad actually kidnapped me from there. Shortly after that the coke dealer beat her to within an inch of her life. She survived, but was in the hospital for a month. Before that he had thrown the two of us out. I remember watching him throw all of our things out on the porch and him telling me that if I did not go get my dog he was going to kill it, as he was beating my mom. I was all of 6.

After that I lived with my dad and step-mom. She was a full on Borderline Personality with Manic Depression. It did not help that she smoked an ounce of pot per week. My dad had a job that took him out of town and she would slap me around whenever he was not there. I remember vividly whenever she got pissed off at anything I was her punching bag. I did not dare tell my dad, partially from fear of retribution from her and partially from fear that he would punish me for telling on her. He was a pussy hound and I was convinced he would believe her over me. I am sure this had a role in my perpetual habit of seeking out abusive BPD woman to torment me for a few months.

During this time my mom had managed to get straightened out and meet my step-dad. They moved out of town. When I was 9 I moved in with them to escape my step-mom. I lived with them until I left for college. My mom was the domineering type who tolerated no dissent. I had to be the perfect son or she would remove her love from me. She molded me and raised me to be the perfect nice guy. Along with the psychological molding I was met with her temper. I was never punished with temperance, but with rage. I learned to walk on egg shells and never make a mistake. Whatever my mom was into I developed an interest in. She was a member of the league of women voters when I was a freshman in high school so I would go to meetings with her. I became the perfect little feminist. I was the guy who never got into trouble and never did anything that would displease my mom. Not from fear of punishment, but from fear that she would abandon me again. I repressed my budding masculinity and would not hit on girls for fear of offending them. Obviously never had a girlfriend, too busy supplicating to women as I had been taught.

I do not know why but some part of me decided that I needed to man up. When I was a senior in high school I decided to go to an all male military college. I went and did my four years there but even that did not man me up. I remained for all intents and purposes a pussy. Always the girls best friend but never a lover. I was so feminized that I make myself sick when I think of some of my old behaviors.

It took me finding the MGTOW movement to realize that I had been cheated out of my manhood. I have been on the forums for years and as odd as it sounds, it took me until I was 30 to realize that I am supposed to be a man. That I do not need to apologize for my masculinity. Every relationship I have ever attempted has failed. Dumped for being too nice. I have been the punching bag for too many women and had too many of the girls I was dating go out of their way to destroy the part of me that is capable of loving them. I know I am damaged, but too many women saw that damage as weakness and exploited it. I guess it is a weakness. But it has left me totally indifferent to women and set me on the path to becoming who I am now. If not for the hurt and anger I would have never done the soul searching and digging to find and remove all the behaviors that have held me back. The good is that I am almost there, but just dammit. Not once has a woman ever shown me one ounce of compassion. This battle to reclaim myself and to fight all my demons has been done alone. No way does some chick get to lay claim on the finished product.

I did not post this to complain or evoke sympathy. Just as a means of showing what it took for me to get here. To be totally indifferent to women and just desiring to be left in peace to live my life. If any of it seemed whiny I apologize. I tried to summarize in a completely non emotional manner.

I hear you, BillyT !
Didn´t lose that “eggshell-walk” until I reached my 30´ties.

zed-All the wounds, all the poison that has been spread, isn’t just going to magically disappear because some woman wants to “wipe the slate clean.” The damage has be dealt with and cleaned up in some way.
ITA. I must admit I am a bit stunned that this concept is such a difficult one for people to grasp. Have some people really been so fortunate to be walking around without one of these deep wounds? I have a few and while they might not be comparable to what many men have gone through, they aren’t hurts that will ever go away for good I’m sure. They will be with me, along with the lessons I learned, for the rest of my life. They’ve caused me to mature, change, and grow. One in particular wounded the trust I used to give out more freely than I do now and has caused me to be more fearful of what I share in friendships. There’s no way for this slate to be wiped cleaned. Time might take the edge of the pain, but it’s not something I’ll forget. The emotional wounds men feel are any different.

Not only is the damage not going to be wiped clean, trying to take blame off of one’s self isn’t going to do any good either. Regardless of when a woman was born, we’ve all contributed to this mess in some way, shape, or form. Maybe it was being cowardly and staying silent while some misandric lie was spread or women cracked a dumb man joke. Evil continues when good people do nothing. Maybe it was more involved, with actively spreading the lies and myths of feminism or even serving a man with divorce papers. Maybe it was the many actions in between. Whatever it was, there are attitudes and behaviors that need to be owned up before a woman can try to make any attempt to deal with the damage that was been done in her name by feminists.

What men here don’t know is that I have lost friendships over this issue. I have gone to battle over this issue. I have written into blogs and newspapers over this issue. I have practiced what I preach and have a “traditonally” structured home life and work stituation and it has worked beautifully for me. I have gone on a few dates and have had them go sour because of the damage done by this movement and how I get lumped in with the rest is so defeating and frustrating to me.
and the most recent action I have taken to try to find solutions? Posting that very question and idea that began this post and thread. I came under personal attack and have spent much time reading and trying to understand the whys and hows of the entire issue. I did put my neck on the line. I will continue to do so, I just needed it be clear that that I was fighting on the same side here and that kept getting lost in all of this. Anyhow…I miss my friendships with my roommate and others and I wish for people to stop causing and feeling suffering. now, forget about me form now on as long as it’s clear that I am here to help…and let’s focus on how I can be used as a tool, not a weapon in this battle.

oh, and dude, a lot of PUA’s are just sex addicts.

good god I need to stop typing so fast and skipping letters, switching letters, etc. sorry there.

Arbitrary-Even if you weren’t involved, that doesn’t mean you can meaningfully approach these issues while willfully ignoring the past. You don’t have to accept personal responsibility for the failures of others; you merely need to acknowledge that these failures have occurred, and that dealing with the issues of the now includes addressing or assuaging the personal experiences of the recent past.
This was the other point I was trying to make with my comment.Thank you for stating it better than I did.

The damage done by feminism/misandry needs to be addressed before any true empathy can be felt for those it has hurt or the reality of its power. The man who had his children stolen from his, his role as father taken away just like that is not going to be trusting towards women or care that you “aren’t like that”. Neither is the man who has been dragged out in handcuffs in front of people he’s known when he’s been falsely accused of a crime. A man with a story like kimskis or my husband’s has been wounded by the woman who should have been better–their mother–a woman who should have had the best interests of her children at heart, not her own. People in my age bracket, who lived through their parents divorce or came home to a dark empty house with their latchkey everyday, who were treated with nothing but indifference during what was likely the selfish pursuits of their mothers, aren’t going to have their painful childhood memories just evaporate. None of these people likely care if somebody is “not like that”, especially when somebody seems to not care about the real pain, trauma, and devastation that has been left in the wake of this ideology.

Let me chime in briefly to support Zed here:

There are enough toxic women that it is a wise decision not to trust any women, given the downside risk in this country for doing so. In short, with the laws as they are, and society configured as it is, it makes no sense at all to invest in a woman if you are male; some men are foolish enough to do it anyways, and some of them even get lucky and have it turn out okay, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a stupid decision in the first place from a cost/benefit analysis perspective.

Likewise, to push the point further, if you are the type who says “I’m not like that”, I’m going to ask what, exactly, you are doing to support men’s rights and push back on feminism. Because if I don’t get a good answer then yes, you are like that.

Don’t like it? Too fucking bad. Actions speak louder than words.

Well, well, well. It appears that you really are “like that”, eh anoukange? The minute someone (me) calls “bullshit” to what you are posting, you go to the victim card. Just like millions of other women do every day. How very original.

Not.

You want to meet me over coffee? No way in hell.
You want an apology? Double no way in hell.

You see, this is the beauty of the internet. Men can actually speak their minds and there isn’t a damn thing women can do about it. What you are getting here is the unabashed truth. This is how we as men feel. It appears that the overwhelming sentiment is “take your peace offering and shove it”. Furthermore, if you get all butt hurt over what I type here then I don’t consider you any sort of ally. Zed knows that I possess the tact of a sledgehammer and I have no intentions of changing my style.

A question was asked and most of the men have answered: Fuck this, we quit.
It ain’t about hate, it ain’t about anger, and it ain’t about being bitter. It’s about basic survival, as in staying completely clear of interactions with women and all of the laws that are on the books to crush us men as individuals resulting from these interactions. It’s about being apathetic to a society that doesn’t give a shit about us.

That’s what it’s about.

You want to discuss your “feelings?”
Ivillage——————————————————————->

@Lethargio

I am an only child, but with various step brothers and sisters that I do not really ever talk to. As far as questions, I really don’t get them. I do not find it often that people ask me anything. If they do I have a way of just blowing off the question.

As far as work, I am in a position where I work with mostly men. There are women in my workplace, but I spend most of my time working with other men. For the most part we all get along. I have heard a lot of stories from the married guys. I sometimes tell them how I feel about marriage and they all agree. Never get married. They all know women and no one questions me either way.

Depending on your situation there are a few options. There is the earnest, yeah I am looking but I just haven’t found her yet…hopefully soon. There is the stern, mind your own damn business. There is the smartass, yeah my girl is turning her last trick at two this afternoon, bitch better call me before she shoots up and passes out. There are lots of ways to dodge the question, depending on your personality and what your work requires. Luckily my job does not depend on any of that. My buddy has everyone thinking that his wife is a stripper, just to screw with them for asking too many personal questions at work.

You do not have to express your views. No one at work or in your life has rights on your thoughts and beliefs. Make up whatever you want to. I have found that opening up to too many people is a bad move. I am guarded but friendly. I let my personal life stay personal.

@ BillyT

Well heeded advice. I think humoring off people works, or kind of saying ‘I don’t know why myself tbh’ creates a fog. You’re right, there are days where I could just use the guns blazing lea’me alone hollering, but I think you’re very right with ‘You do not have to express your views.’. Also to whether the recipient is M or F.

But yep, you do not have to ‘justify’ things further than you feel is needed, even though people may probe. ‘Friendly but guarded’ sums it.

However on a point, with some words from ‘Zed’ which perhaps relates more to the mud slinging on the internet.

“Any time any man even dares speak out, he is viciously personally attacked with stupid statements – “can’t get laid, small penis, mommy issues, filled with hate, bitter, etc. etc.”

That’s the thing, on the other side out there, ‘speaking out’ is still largely confined, and yet I still have the desire to do so, anywhere. Unless attention is brought to others why we are as we are (becoming as we are), people (mainly women) remain unaffected. I think speaking out will abrase initially, but done correctly it will win (some) people over and they will respect and should understand real reasons as to why men feel this way. Speaking out serves the wider group.

I also thought of saying something like:

Asker: So do you have a girlfriend then, eh?

Myself: Nah…

Asker: How come?

Myself: Yea weird, but haven’t you noticed? Not only me, guys out there, feel they’ve been burned, are taking it cautiously, just timing things differently y’know… It’s like men’re questioning women differently and stuff, holding back for some reason, have you found that?… Yea I fall into that category and just feel to take it easy y’know, time will tell…

Very broad but get’s ‘em thinking.

When it’s a woman it’s like you’re throwing questions of her gender back at her, for her to question women rather than to have her gauge you up and down. It could go either way.

From there this is quite a lead-up to a lot of discussing if one’s in the mood and puts the feelers out there to gauge other people’s views on men’s/women’s relationships (there’s me crying out to be left alone, it’s kind of unavoidable sometimes so it has to be worked with).

I think a chunk of what happens here on the internet needs to exist in the everyday. It may come to a riot but whichever way it’s a much needed transition of debate. I do feel my existence in the everyday is still ‘repressed’ more than need be, as most men have been moulded this way.

Work in progress.

Thanks for your insight!