In Part I, I dealt with the fundamental issue that most people consider the “problem” of love to be the problem of an object – of finding the right object to love, or to be loved by. Thus do people, Western women in particular, draw up long lists of the attributes that their preferred love object must have in order to qualify for them. Sadly for them, even if they get every last attribute on their list, there is still going to be a sense of something missing. And that “something” is the fact that they, themselves, can never feel love until they learn the action of loving.
Here is how a Western man perceives Western women -
“Question is, are modern Western women truly capable of heterosexual love? I get the distinct impression that most want to *be* loved, but are not so good at loving back.”
No, in fact they are not capable of love, and that fact by itself provides the answer to a whole host of questions.
Suppose I were to claim that I’m about to share old Uncle zed’s version of “The Secret”? And, unlike the O-cow, I’m not going to charge for it, I’m going to give it away for free. (yeah, Nada, I know. Well, if you can find a way to sell it and make money on it, then send me some royalties.;) )
The only thing it will cost you is your own illusions and bullshit. A dear price to pay, I know. But, I will offer the following guarantee – try it for one year, and if it does not work, then everything you didn’t pay for it and all your current misery will be cheerfully refunded. How’s that for a guarantee?
Western women are incapable of feeling love (or loved) because they are incapable of loving. They are still trapped in the problem of the object. By looking for love in an object, or in objects coming from an object (shoes, jewelry, cars, etc.) Western women cut themselves off and numb themselves to love. They experience love when they they experience loving feelings. Because they are unwilling to learn and master the Art of Loving, they choose to spend their entire lives devoid of love.
I learned the hard way that you can take a 5 gallon bucket of love and pour it over a woman’s head, and she still feels nothing inside but emptiness. And the biggest mistake men make is taking on the responsibility for her emptiness. They can work themselves to death (literally) trying to fill up the black hole, the bottomless pit, which exists inside her, and experience only frustration for all their efforts.
All this can be solved if men will do 2 things -
1) transcend the problem of the object and stop treating their own love like an object to be bartered with their love object for love in return, and
2) stop making their own happiness contingent on the happiness of another.
“Don’t worry, be happy” actually turns out to be pretty good advice and not the pop drivel that a lot of people think it is.
By perfecting the Art of Loving, a man can learn that happiness is a choice and if the woman in his life chooses not to be happy, that he can still go on being happy and let her poisonous mood poison only her and not him.
Feminism teaches women the Art of Unhappiness. No matter how much a woman has, “women still have a long way to go.” As long as the glass is even 1% empty, happiness will remain forever beyond their reach.
If you want a good look at the absolute void which is modern womanhood, check out these two sites. You will have to copy and paste, because I won’t give them the trackback of a direct link. No point in broadcasting troll-bait. A short stay on either of these sites will leave most men with absolutely no question why these women are divorced, and if anything will fill him with gratitude that he is not one of the ex-husbands who they so skillfully flay in the public eye.
firstwivesworld.com
divorcedwomenonline.com
This is the face of the modern woman after her feminist illusions have failed her and before she has formulated a “Plan B.” There are 3 essays in particular which illustrate the emptiness and shallowness of modern womanhood -
firstwivesworld.com/community/house-bloggers/do-i-really-have-it-bad/
firstwivesworld.com/community/house-bloggers/good-enough-not-ideal/
divorcedwomenonline.com/2009/08/my-regret-about-marrying-the-wrong-man/
The first two are the morose black hole into which everything falls and nothing comes back out. In the midst of luxury, one woman wonders “Do I really have it that bad?” It boggles the mind to think what a resident of a Calcutta slum, a refugee of the Dharfur, or one of the victims of a Middle Eastern suicide bombing would say in answer to that question. But, the real kicker is the 2nd bit – “Good enough is not ideal.” Nothing less than perfection will ever do.
The third post is the perfect illustration of the problem of ”the object” in the consideration of love – “I married the wrong man”, “I have a broken picker. If I had just picked the right object to love and be loved by, life would be groovy.” In the never-ending search for “Mr. Right” (or Miss Right), the problem is always boiled down to finding exactly the right object, and never on one’s own conduct in the relationship once that object is secured.
Kis has a “broken picker”, she picked the wrong “object.” Both her parents have Game – her father had “husband Game” and her mother had “wife Game”, and they are still married and loving each other after more than 50 years. They realized that there was more to a marriage than how well their “picker” worked – that a marriage, a relationship, must be nourished, fed, cared for, and tended.
If you want a quick guide to how a woman will be in a relationship, look at the condition of her houseplants – if she has them. Never even date a woman whose plants always die. Anyone who cannot nurture a plant can most likely not nurture any other living thing – such as a relationship.
It is interesting that almost all the responses to the original post on this topic immediately interpreted the word “love” purely to mean “romantic love” between a man and a woman (in most cases). Yet, the concept of actual “love” is much broader. In addtion to “eros”, romantic/sexual love, there is also “agape” – “divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love.” There is also “philia” – “dispassionate virtuous love. It includes loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality and familiarity.” And then, there is always, and often under-rated, “gusto” – love of life itself.
When one is fully engaged in the Art of Loving, there is no time nor space for morosely reflecting on what one’s life does not have in it, because one’s attention is fully engaged with what is in it.
Obsidian has in several comments mentioned a very powerful and universal truth – you can only change yourself. You cannot change the rest of the world. Demanding that the rest of the world change to meet your specifications is the ultimate prescription for unhappiness.
And that leads us back to why men are happier today than men were 40 years ago, and why women, despite 40 years of feminism, are less happy. Fedrz said it perfectly – “Women wanted men’s curse along with their own.” Whoever in the world came up with the idea to sell them men’s curse and call it “empowerment” was an advertising genius.
A common synonym for “love” is “passion.” Once again, people usually always leap to thinking only of sexual passion. But people can have passion about many things – a passion for learning, a passion for social justice, even a passion for inventing things. I seriously doubt that anyone could accuse Nikola Tesla of not being a “passionate” man.
The bottom line is this – I believe that happiness lies within the reach of most western men if they are willing and able to reframe the situation within their own minds and become more focussed on mastery and practice of the Arts of Life than on acquiring and being objects. The fact that post-feminist Western women cannot reciprocate our love because they see love as an object to be acquired, and a man simply as an object to serve as the source of other objects, need not be our problem as much as it is theirs.
Let them try to fill their own emptiness through the perpetual quest for more objects (shopping) and the endless consumption of emotional roadkill in the form of television drama and the O-cow. They will fail, and they will always remain empty, because they are constantly looking outside themselves for answers. We may not be able to talk them out of or save them from their folly, but we need not allow ourselves to be dragged down into it along with them.
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I’ve seen a lot of stupid shit on this website, from articles about the POTUS being a “beta” (whatever that means) or mindless ranting against liberals, homosexuals, etc. But every now and then, there are genuinely thoughtful, reflective posts that really advance the debate. This series by Zed definitely is a perfect example of this.
Thank you.
I agree with gist of this, but I’ll also say that women can find happiness if they follow these precepts as well. They don’t have to look outside of themselves either to find happiness, they’ve just been conditioned to do so. They can put a stop to it, the same way men can, if they only would.
And many people of both genders are beginning to make just that choice.
Great piece, Zed.
“The bottom line is this – I believe that happiness lies within the reach of most western men if they are willing and able to reframe the situation within their own minds and become more focussed on mastery and practice of the Arts of Life than on acquiring and being objects. The fact that post-feminist Western women cannot reciprocate our love because they see love as an object to be acquired, and a man simply as an object to serve as the source of other objects, need not be our problem as much as it is theirs.”
Brilliant. The only thing I would add is that the emasculated modern male is in the same exact boat as the woman, only he is more inherently equipped, even in his castrated state, to jump overboard and swim for shore.
Dragnet, you are a dumb fuck. You could walk up to Nobama, slam him in the stomach, spit on him on the way down, and walk out with Michelle if the Secret Service weren’t around to stop you. He is that much of a pussy.
That is, assuming you wanted to sleep with an ugly Klingon like the First Hag. Me, not so much.
“dragnet November 3, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I’ve seen a lot of stupid shit on this website, from articles about the POTUS being a “beta” (whatever that means) or mindless ranting against liberals, homosexuals, etc. But every now and then, there are genuinely thoughtful, reflective posts that really advance the debate. This series by Zed definitely is a perfect example of this.”
@Dragnet-
Has there been gay bashing on this site much? I havn’t really seen it, but I’m not looking for it either. I would argue against anyone who hates on gays. The few gays I’ve known who see through the bullshit of females would be powerful allies to our movement, as women tend to idolize gays for some reason, like its magical or something that they aren’t affected by the power of pussy.
I like to point out that this site doesn’t suffer from “group think”, by either its authors or the commentors. Maybe all the negatives you perceive from this site just stand out more in your brain, while its easy to forget the things you agree with, as your brain just skims past redundant information. Our memory tends to grab hold of things that cause us pain or discomfort. Clearly remembering the bad is simply an evolved mechanism to help us better survive in a dangerous, complex world. Just a thought. I respect pessimisim. It has its purpose. Just don’t get disgruntled. Don’t leave the debate. Then no one learns.
@ Lurker-
Got hate?
Chill out a little. That debate is over in another thread.
Another bang on article from the MRA community but changes nothing, you could blare as loud as possible, nothing will change, the countless hordes of manginas will insure the never ending supply of gimme gimme princess`cupcake`s will get everything they need and the countless mangina politicians like Joe Biden and they`re VAWA laws will insure they get every penny they can give the poor wittle darlings.
Try to tell a young mangina what we know and all you will get is ùr a fag, FAIL, woot, loser, LOL, wut are u talking about
You’re going to love a piece I am working on now. Do you know the story of Br’er Fox, Br’er Rabbit and the tar baby? “Oh please, oh please, oh please, Br’er Fox, don’t throw me into that briar patch.” But, Br’er Fox, preferring being evil to having dinner, throws Br’er Rabbit into the briar patch, not realizing that it is Br’er Rabbit’s home.
From the middle of the briar patch comes Br’er Rabbit’s laughter – “it’s where ah live, Br’er Fox, it’s where ah live.”
Women thought they were doing something awful to us when they threw us out of the prison cells of the provider role and demanded to take our places in them. They thought they were doing something awful to men by throwing us into the briar patch. But, life for men has always been hard, never easy. We are far better prepared to lead a spartan life with few comforts than women are.
As Fedrz said – they now have both their traditional curse as well as ours, and we men are free if we choose to be.
The Briar Patch – “it’s where we live, Sis’h Fox, it’s where we live.”
Dragnet, one of my goals has been to give guys pretty much free rein to write as they feel or see things. Maybe it seems a bit like the blind men and elephant to you, but you know how the world looks when you’ve just awaken from a dream: kind of blurry and unreal, and you feel a bit groggy.
I welcome additions to the discussion, and would welcome pretty much anyone who wants to contribute, from a masculine perspective, to the discovery of the solution to the many problems that beset gender relations in the West.
zed
That allegory doesn’t really stack up. When women entered the workforce, it wasn’t because they wanted to do something awful to men, it was because they thought they were doing something wonderful for themselves. Most probably didn’t even think about the effect it would have on men, if any. The few who did probably thought they were doing men a favor by relieving them of the pressure of being the sole breadwinner.
Their motivations were selfish, but not malicious.
“Be the change you want to see in the world.” – Mahatma Gandhi
“Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. We cannot cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to live in joy.” – Joseph Campbell
To live a life of love, one must also accept that suffering is a part of life. You can focus on the negative, or you can focus on the positive. Your thoughts frame your reality, be it a positive one or a negative one. That is not to say “ignore the negative.” The negative thoughts and feelings will come, but you can let them wash over you and stand firm as a large rock in a river torrent.
Indeed. Living a life full of love, one would love all life — the earth, the trees, the sky, the stars — or to use a perhaps clichéd phrase: All That Is.
21Guns –
Google “Women on Top” or “Women Getting Even”. Look up “A Woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.” There are thousands of references in feminist literature about women getting back at men for “10,000 years of oppression.” Maria Shriver just recently declared that it is no longer a “Man’s World”, but now it is “A Woman’s Nation.”
There is a great old story about P.T. Barnum. One of his shows was so crowded that he spread the word to the barkers to start shouting “This way to see the great Egress!!!” People rushed in the direction they were being pointed, only to find out too late that “egress” meant “exit.”
Whatever women’s motivations were, and they were selfish and a lot of them hostile, they have changed the cultural dynamic which allowed many of them to be supported by men in a way that can never be changed back.
For good or ill, we can only go forward, not backward.
@ 21guns
Please. Their motivations were both selfish and malicious, as well as vengeful. The entire construct of gender feminism is that women were freeing themselves from the evil oppression of patriarchy, aka MEN.
If you have seen anything in the gender feminist literature over the past forty years that indicates that women coming into the workforce was doing men a favor by relieving pressure on them, PLEASE point it out to me.
“Try to tell a young mangina what we know and all you will get is ùr a fag, FAIL, woot, loser, LOL, wut are u talking about”
Doubtless.
But who here is pitching to such a reluctant audience? Most of us are commenting because it gives us pleasure to say something coherent, and most of us are reading because it gives us pleasure to read something coherent from another. I wouldn’t dare to say original – the articles and comments to which we are most drawn tell us what we already know, but capture in words that truth without being compromised by poor diction, equivocation or vagueness. They have a touch of poetry that lift them above the mundane.
How could it be that nothing is achieved when so much pleasure is given and received? I suggest re-reading the OP.
In Sept of 83 I bought a houseplant and I still have it.
(Meaningless comment but I couldn’t resist)
zed
I wasn’t talking about the pundits and slogan-writers and other Fearless Feminist Leaders, I was talking about the millions of ordinary women who went rushing into the job market in the 70’s because it seemed like the groovy new thing to do. These were the same women who had second thoughts in the 80’s and wanted to drop out and have babies, only to find themselves trapped in an economy where two-income households had become the norm. These women were not malicious, they were just stupid, shortsighted, and selfish.
Paul E.
The entire construct of gender feminism is that women were freeing themselves from the evil oppression of patriarchy, aka MEN.
True. But “freeing themselves” is not quite the same thing as “getting even.” The Fearless Feminist Leaders could not have gotten to where they are today by appealing to women’s sense of vengeance, they had to appeal primarily to selfishness. Sure, the leaders themselves were motivated by vengeance, but they were savvy enough to know that selfishness is a much, much better motivator. Vengeance takes too much energy.
If you have seen anything in the gender feminist literature over the past forty years that indicates that women coming into the workforce was doing men a favor by relieving pressure on them, PLEASE point it out to me.
It’s out there, I know I’ve seen it in the writings of Naomi Wolf, at least, and possibly Gloria Steinem as well. It’s usally tacked on as an afterthought or last-minute rationalization, along the lines of “oh, by the way, men should appreciate us taking up our share of the breadwinning.” Just in case the reader might be having second thoughts. I don’t think the writers believe it for a minute, but the readers latch on to it in order to quell any misgivings they may have, and the writers know it.
Again, I was talking about sheeple, not leaders. I should have been more clear on that point.
jfr
My plants are alive and kickin’.
True, but which kills you more dead – being gored by an angry rhinocerous, or crushed by a lumbering elephant?
It’s fairly typical in having a discussion with a woman for it to be very difficult to get across that men don’t see a great deal of difference between malice which produces destructive results and stupidity which produces destructive results. The bottom line is that the destructive results still have to be dealt with.
I have been at women for years over the issue that all these “ordinary” women needed to start providing a counter-voice to radical feminism. A few radical women were waging war on men in the name of all women, and very few women were saying jack shit to the contrary. Instead, they were bragging about being “strong independent women who don’t need no man.”
In the meantime, the media has been pouring gasoline on the flames of the gender war. MarkyMark, on his blog, http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/11/shes-happier-without-hubby.html just ripped into an article in the Times in the UK (which interestingly suddenly seems to have been taken down after being online for almost 2 years) – “I’m happier since he died.” On that same page was a snide article titled “101 uses for a man.” A few weeks ago, the web was awash in articles giddy over men’s redundancy now that scientists had been able to make sperm in the lab. This is the impression that men have gotten regarding what women think of us.
Women have been sparing no effort for a lot of years to make sure we know that they do not need us, do not like us, and (particularly around Valentine’s Day) find us so annoying and bothersome that we have to bribe our way out of their emotional abuse with jewelry and other presents.
And through all this, the silence of the “not-all-women” saying anything else has been deafening.
So, what we have is the “marriage” between men and women at the cultural level gone really bad, and a lot of men left with absolutely no reason to think kindly of or trust women. If you have not already, spend some time at http://www.glennsacks.com/blog/ and look at the travesties going on in the family courts. Then go to http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ and have a look at the very real problem of false rape accusations.
The only exit strategy from this stupid gender war that the feminist leaders duped stupid, shortsighted, and selfish women into waging, is for women to wake up to how badly they have screwed the pooch and start suing for peace with men willing to entertain the notion.
Feminism has been men’s problem for the past few decades, but our old roles have been totally destroyed and there is nothing left to force us to keep throwing ourselves into the meat grinder of the family courts. Feminism is now women’s problem, and it is going to be really entertaining for those of us who have been in the war zone for years to retire and watch how women cope with it.
Feminism = The Art of Unhappiness. Brilliant.
One of the most damaging half-sentences around is the myth that women are paid just 75% of what a man is paid. They leave off the second half of the sentence.
The full, factually correct sentence is :
In the US, women earn 75% of what men do, for doing about 70% of the work.
So women actually earn more than man per unit of productivity. This, of course, hastens the outsourcing of women’s jobs a bit faster than men’s jobs.
Now, if women knew the full sentence, they would be happier. Instead, by being fed only the first half of that sentence, they not only mistakenly feel mistreated, but will never, ever see the day when women earn parity with men as per that rigged half-sentence (even though they already earn more per unit of productivity).
Feminism = the Art of Unhappiness.
I don’t know. At least, I don’t know that men and women experience love the same way–at least romantic love. I mean, if you look at Zed’s post on sex and mating, I think the strongest and most selfless love bonds are going to be from man to woman, and from woman to child.
In evolutionary terms the woman doesn’t have to love the man to pass on her genes, she has to love her child. Her love for the man is dependent (narcisissistic) in that she needs what he can give her. Her love for the child is selfless. Whereas, the man’s love for both mother and child must be selfless, otherwise he’s just wander off and find someone else to fuck and share his resources with (or keep them all to himself and fuck everyone he wants).
That doesn’t mean that women can’t love selflessly, just that they’re more likely to feel that way about their children than their husbands.
Dragnet is coming from a left-wing point of view, and has been trained his whole life to assume that white males are automatically racist, misogynist, etc. and that gay-bashing is accepted even before any example of such.
He is a long way from realizing that 2010 is no longer 1968, and that today, his ‘maleness’ is much more under attack than his ‘blackness’.
He is undergoing a paradigm shift, and as we know, this can take months. So bear with him and give him time. He’ll come around by March or so.
I would recommend that he have Obsidian ‘e-mentor’ him in the process.
Dragnet, how old are you?
Good.
I would say it shouldn’t be “Don’t worry.” but “Don’t care, be happy”
And by Don’t care, I mean don’t care about the outcome, don’t care about the turmoil that other people places themselves.
I agree completely that women don’t know how to love.
It doesn’t have to be “selfless.” In fact, I would be very suspicious of anyone who claimed it was. Nor is a man’s love “selfless.” Normally it is an even trade – he trades his love for her love. That is what used to make marriage work.
What has happened to relationships since feminism is that women have lost the concept of “investing love” in their husbands. Hestia and crella “invest” love in their husbands, and reap major returns. It sounds to me like your mother fully understood what returns she would get if she “invested love” in your dad.
The problem is that when it comes to love, feminism taught women that their investments and the payoff they got from them was actually “oppression” and made them believe that they were just entitled to a man’s “selfless” love without ever giving anything back – except maybe a little infrequent bad sex.
“few weeks ago, the web was awash in articles giddy over men’s redundancy now that scientists had been able to make sperm in the lab. This is the impression that men have gotten regarding what women think of us.”
That’s not impression, that’s reality.
“you can only change yourself. You cannot change the rest of the world. Demanding that the rest of the world change to meet your specifications is the ultimate prescription for unhappiness.”
That’s fine for you all, but I will change the world.
Yeah, I can see that.
But what I was trying to get at is that the strength of the pair bond for a woman is predicated largely on what the man brings to the table in practical terms. A man could love a woman to the ends of the earth, but if he provides nothing practical for her that she couldn’t provide for herself–money, security, shelter, protection, leadership (and if she can provide those on her own, then yes, chocolate and flowers and jewelry and status)–maybe she can’t love him. Because the pair bond for females is based on taking resources from the man and using them to make sure her kid lives long enough to mate.
That is, the pair bond for a man is fed by what a woman IS–everything he needs to love her is already within her, from her nurturing nature to her child-bearing hips, her health and genetic attractiveness, her submissiveness, whatever. The pair bond for a woman is fed by what the man CAN DO FOR HER. The one is selfless, and the other dependent.
So now we have a situation where women don’t *need* anything from men that they can’t provide for themselves. They don’t have to depend on them, so the pair bond is severed in one direction. But you still have men who love selflessly who end up getting burned because women don’t have a reason to love them. The only way to maintain the pair bond is for husbands to game their wives, because game is the only thing left that can trick a woman into thinking she needs him, or at least that she’s less without him, which is the only way to keep her love from withering like an unwatered houseplant.
But maybe I’m talking out of my ass here? I don’t know. Just thinking out loud.
5th Horse…good point….and you’re not even factoring in the fact that men pay more in net taxes than women as a whole to support women and their social programs. A statistic never factored in the the 70 cent argument.
Feminism = the Art of Unhappiness.
I have a correction –
Feminism = the Politics of Unhappiness.
“Western women are incapable of feeling love (or loved) because they are incapable of loving.”
This sums it up exactly. And this is at the heart of the whole problem.
The only solution might be to learn to become as cold hearted as women.
Life uses its resources as sparingly as possible.
It was not necessary for species survival that women loved men, since men love women. If life had given the female of the species the capacity to love, it would have been a waste… and as we know, life is thrifty.
Women are not, therefore conditioned to love but to be a “recipient” of man’s love. That’s different. Women are meant to be loved. Please do not expect reciprocity: it will only cause you pain.
Men believe in love because they have the capacity to exercise it. Women do not because they don’t have to in order to propagate the species.
So here we are: we realize now that women are not creatures of love… we are!!! How ironic!
We are just pawns in the game Life plays. We must make the best of it.
Knowlege, sometimes, induces pain.
But that’s how we evolve.
If you want a quick guide to how a woman will be in a relationship, look at the condition of her houseplants – if she has them. Never even date a woman whose plants always die. Anyone who cannot nurture a plant can most likely not nurture any other living thing – such as a relationship.
uh-oh
Kis:
In evolutionary terms the woman doesn’t have to love the man to pass on her genes, she has to love her child. Her love for the man is dependent (narcisissistic) in that she needs what he can give her. Her love for the child is selfless. Whereas, the man’s love for both mother and child must be selfless, otherwise he’s just wander off and find someone else to fuck and share his resources with (or keep them all to himself and fuck everyone he wants).
That doesn’t mean that women can’t love selflessly, just that they’re more likely to feel that way about their children than their husbands.
Truth.
zed:
What has happened to relationships since feminism is that women have lost the concept of “investing love” in their husbands. Hestia and crella “invest” love in their husbands, and reap major returns. It sounds to me like your mother fully understood what returns she would get if she “invested love” in your dad.
Yes Zed, but she invested because there was a definite return. There was something approximating a (healthy) dependent relationship.
Now that women are more educated and earn more money, this sense of “soft obligation” no longer exists, or is at least highly attenuated.
kis:
That is, the pair bond for a man is fed by what a woman IS–everything he needs to love her is already within her, from her nurturing nature to her child-bearing hips, her health and genetic attractiveness, her submissiveness, whatever. The pair bond for a woman is fed by what the man CAN DO FOR HER. The one is selfless, and the other dependent.
Goddamn, Kis is knocking ‘em out of the park tonight.
kis:
But maybe I’m talking out of my ass here? I don’t know. Just thinking out loud.
No, I hear you loud and clear.
rebel:
“Western women are incapable of feeling love (or loved) because they are incapable of loving.”
This sums it up exactly. And this is at the heart of the whole problem.
The only solution might be to learn to become as cold hearted as women.
Life uses its resources as sparingly as possible.
It was not necessary for species survival that women loved men, since men love women. If life had given the female of the species the capacity to love, it would have been a waste… and as we know, life is thrifty.
Women are not, therefore conditioned to love but to be a “recipient” of man’s love. That’s different. Women are meant to be loved. Please do not expect reciprocity: it will only cause you pain.
Men believe in love because they have the capacity to exercise it. Women do not because they don’t have to in order to propagate the species.
So here we are: we realize now that women are not creatures of love… we are!!! How ironic!
Bolded part is the answer.
Which is why the future will belong to guys like Roissy. Guys who are already married, like Dave, may pick up game to keep their wives from raping them in divorce court, but the guys who aren’t already trapped will simply get as much tail as they can as long as they can.
It isn’t possible to “sever the pair bond in one direction” – it either is a bond, or it isn’t. And, clearly in today’s world, it just doesn’t exist.
The fatal miscalculation women have made in all this is to expect men to keep on doing exactly as they have always done while the women did whatever they damn well pleased. Women did not realize that the restrictions which chafed them so badly applied just as much to men and when the restrictions started getting thrown out the window – all of them would go sooner or later. A Fred Astair needs a Ginger Rogers as a dance partner – it just ain’t the same when he is trying to dance with graceless cows like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton.
As soon as men realize that women don’t love them, and never have loved them, except for what they could provide, some men, perhaps a lot of men, are going to decide to quit wasting their lives so cheaply and invest their love somewhere else that gives them better returns. This is really going to suck for most kids, but as I said before – in order to keep men in the game there has to be something more on the table for them than the opportunity to be noble corpses.
Men have always known how to live without love. Most of history has had huge numbers of men who were explorers, or “Mountain Men” like Jeremiah Johnson who just “Went Their Own Way.”
All these terrible times in the past that feminists love to throw up to prove that women were “oppressed” were simply the fact that there wasn’t much chance for women to make a living on their own, and raise kids, and there certainly wasn’t a huge government around to replace husbands for women, so the whole game was rigged to give men enough benefits from taking on supporting a wife and kids to encourage a large number of men to do so.
Take that away, and fewer men will do it. We are in the final years before the whole house of cards collapses. The marriage rate is down by half over the past 40 years, women have been getting the majority of college degrees for the past 25 years, and there simply won’t be many high-earning men for the girls of today to pair up with.
The poison pill done been swallowed.
As it stands, there is a fork in the road for us men:
Those who desire children must go about finding a suitable broodmare with all the practicality and unsentimentality of starting a business venture. This means romantic sacrifices must be made: no more expectations of beautiful women or non-stop sex in the marriage. It is JUST about the children. There are many fine, kind, good-natured women who would fit this bill. (One must cover all legal bases, natch)
Those who do not desire children must either GTOW, or learn Game and enjoy serial monogamy or “alternative” sexual lifestyles and subcultures.
The love our parents had no longer exists in this world.
Funny, the only women who have loved me without reservation are those for whom I did nothing practical. As soon as a woman starts to expect something from a man, she starts to hate him.
This is the reality I have seen throughout my life. I have learned that if I want love from a woman, the best course is to give her nothing and take whatever I can get.
BTW, the part about a woman already having everything a man needs to love her is bogus. Men are not so simple that they will never figure it out — if a woman has only her sexuality to offer she is little more than one stepping stone among many along the path of life.
Women are the gatekeepers of sex.
Men are the gatekeepers of safety.
The physical safety of women is entirely dependent on the ratio of ‘protector’ men (police, good samaritans) to that of ‘aggressor’ men being above a certain level. When this ratio is favorable, it goes unnoticed.
While white-collar professional men will not resort to violence, they might just not feel inclined to help a feminist in distress. A male police-officer who has been on the receiving end of misandric feminism, might just take his own sweet time to respond to a distress call. The loss of men willing to be ‘rescuers’ is a huge cost that women will inflict on themselves.
Women have no idea how much they have to lose by letting the ratio that ensures their safety fall below a certain level. Of course, urban SWPL feminists in the big city who go home from work after dark are far more at risk than a housewife in the suburbs, and deservedly so.
In the old days, marriage also offered a woman safety that an unmarried woman did not have.
This is Horseman #4, of the Four.
Good catch, Welmer, I missed that while I was focussed on something else.
This is the classic issue of mistakenly equating “sex” with “love.” Infatuation lasts at most 4 years, which is the window a couple has to build something more lasting. Miss that window, and it’s back on the merry-go-round.
Plus she has a total shelf life of maybe 25 years, if she takes real good care of herself. A lot less if she doesn’t.
You really need to go to those 2 links I posted, kis, and read all the stories of middle-aged and older women getting dumped by their husbands. The woman with the “broken picker” was even honest enough to tell the story of having an affair with a married man when she was in her “hot” years. Mate poaching is more of a problem for women than for men because once a woman ages out of her years of high SMV, the only thing holding her husband around is the emotional bond and social pressure. If the emotional bond never forms, and social pressure is just about totally dead these days, a lot of these women end up dumped at middle age with so much baggage that few men will be willing to take it on.
There are some shockingly good observations in the comments here.
I will add an addendum to the quote above. While women are not conditioned to love a man, they are, however, biologically wired to “love” their biological offspring.
@ Welmer,
A definable characteristic of a “stepping stone” is that you must actually trust it to step upon it.
@ 21Guns
“True. But “freeing themselves” is not quite the same thing as “getting even.” The Fearless Feminist Leaders could not have gotten to where they are today by appealing to women’s sense of vengeance, they had to appeal primarily to selfishness. Sure, the leaders themselves were motivated by vengeance, but they were savvy enough to know that selfishness is a much, much better motivator. Vengeance takes too much energy.”
I would argue the in the feminist and generally female psyche they are pretty much synonymous. First, of course, there never was anything for women to be “freed” from. Pure feminist myth since women were never oppressed.
So the feminists used a classic Tavistock tactic and manufactured an “identified enemy” That would be you and me. And it seems from the destruction of almost all male institutions that were not set up to serve women, and the ultimate marginalization of men and boys in the culture that the vengeance game has been going pretty well for them.
Just my two cents worth.
Oh, and we DO!!!! Ask kis’s husband.
“Please, oh please, oh please, Sis’h Fox, please don’t throw us in that briar patch.” (tee hee hee)
“Tear off our ears, poke out our eyes, skin us and fry us up in a pan, but whatever you do, please don’t throw us in that briar patch.” (tee hee hee) 
The Briar Patch – “it’s where we live, Sis’h Fox, it’s where we live.”
Thank you so much for sending us home.
Tupac,
Is it just me, or does this article, and the comments, have better advice for how a woman can achieve happiness with men, than the sum total of the articles written on GirlGame – a blog specifically devoted to helping women achieve happiness in their relationships with men?
“So the feminists used a classic Tavistock tactic and manufactured an “identified enemy” That would be you and me.”
(psst, Paul E, 21Guns is female)
5th Horseman:
I was thinking the EXACT same thing.
Fifth Horseman
I know you weren’t talking to me, but I agree with what you just wrote. The problem I have with GirlGame is that it assumes its readers all want a relationship with a man. It does not ask them to examine WHY they want a realtionship.
Outstanding observation!
Tupac,
Great minds…….
What observation of GirlGame tells me is that most women (with the notable exception of Bhetti and possibly Sofia) just can’t pin down the essential elements of what would create their own happiness. Hence, they are not progressing towards this goal.
This means that MEN have to lead (as we know). Men cannot expect a woman to figure it out.
The apparent mission of ‘GirlGame’ or ‘The Rules’ is to ‘teach a woman how to get the best possible man to commit to her’.
But what determines which guy is the ‘best’? Reading between the lines, what that really means is :
‘We wish that the men we can currently get learn Game, so that we can feel more attracted to them then we presently are.’
So it begins and ends with MEN learning Game.
They will disagree with this, of course. But the real message seems clear.
But see, here’s the thing.
I realize there is a LOT of injustice going on right now. You MRA guys cover a lot of ground, and thanks to you all, I’ve become familiar with it: custody laws, divorce theft, alimony, government support of single-mothers, feminist intelligentsia warping the brains and expectations of women, etc.
But with respect to the topic of this blog entry, I have a suspicion (as I alluded to at Ferdinand’s) that if you removed all of that stuff, yet still had to deal with the closing of the income, education, status, and sophistication gap between men and women that occurs in ANY wealthy civilization, we would STILL see the type of broken marital/romantic relationships written about by Zed. It is INEVITABLE.
Women, in the main, do not want equals. Well, not for their boyfriends/husbands anyway. In the old days, women WERE weaker, dumber, dependent. They felt a kind of love born out of THANKFULLNESS and APPRECIATION. But when women become independent, much of this vanishes — corrupt divorce law or not — and so we then begin to see the hairy black heart that was beating menacingly at the core of womens’ souls ALL ALONG.
This means that for independent women, most men (who were already somewhat genetically expendable to begin with, per evo-psych) are even MORE expendable. Now, the men who exist in the tapestry of an independent woman’s life — the ones who keep the lights on, the mechanics who fix her car when it breaks, the plumber who repairs a leak, etc. — they hold little to no meaning for her except as “extras” on the set of her fabulous life. Solid, hard-working, tax-paying decent men are now relegated to the Darwinian deathbin of history.
Women will not begin to “love” such men ever again, UNLESS, the whole country/world implodes and we are thrust back into a 19th century existence(hey, it could happen), OR, women finally GROW UP and EVOLVE, and start to value other things in life. How likely is that?
Tread quickly and lightly, Rob, like we do when crossing a stream.
Women will not evolve. Keep in mind that we are all living on credit here in the US. Trust me, I’ve seen the other side of the coin.
When men have nothing to give anymore, women won’t get anything. They’ll be SOL, and selling themselves on the street like the Russian girls were in the 90s. I saw that, too. At least American girls have been busy learning to dress like whores for the last fifteen years or so — that’s about the only skill that will serve many of them in coming years.
Welmer:
Tread quickly and lightly, Rob, like we do when crossing a stream.
Well, that’s certainly been my M.O. for some time now.
Let them build up their little hopes and dreams for as long as they can manage, before they start getting too demanding, whereupon I skedaddle.
How likely do you suppose in 1900 that someone would guess that 69 years later men would not only be flying, but walking on the moon?
Women will never grow up until men force them to, just like no child does until its parents force it to. Betty Friedan’s book in some indirect ways took women to task for always dodging behind the “Feminine Mystique.” They continue to do it today because men allow them to.
Men can force the issue by upping our Game and holding them accountable, and making them suffer the consequences of being stupid.
And, don’t give me any of this helpless futility “we can’t.” We will never know whether we can unless we try, and if we don’t try our futures will suck anyway.
If you have to go down, why not at least go down fighting?
Men are already evolving. Game is one evolutionary innovation. The Rhetoric of Ridicule is another. Take a look at a couple of the posts here where the femanasties piled in and tried to use their tired old, worn out, shaming tactics. They don’t work any more. They roll off guys like water off a duck’s back. When I was growing up a woman could cut a man TO THE BONE with a few well chosen words. Women have thrown away the power of that weapon by overuse. It is only effective when used sparingly, with finesse – like a scalpel. Instead, women have been using it like a bludgeon and it has no edge left at all.
The big game is far from over. The fat lady most definitely has not sung yet. Men have a lot of power and options available to them, if they do not just give up, roll over, and die.
We can start to really hold women’s feet to the fire, and the good part is that we have learned ALL THEIR GAMES AND NOW KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT THEM!! They have shown up on a couple of threads here throwing their entire arsenal at us like they were firing blunderbusses, but they were loaded with popcorn.
We’re men. We can be bold, be daring, and realize that women are now our competitors and our enemies.
At the very least it will keep us from getting bored while we are sitting around waiting to die.
No no no. Not just her sexuality–her personality, her submissiveness, her attractiveness, etc. If the infatuation is to lead to a true pair bond, yeah, she needs to be more than “boobs, butt and knees.” (Copyright Steve Dallas)
What I’m getting at is that the man loves the woman. That doesn’t mean that she can be a selfish shrew if she has good looks and a nice ass, because once the shine of new love wears off, he’s gonna notice she’s a cunt. It means that he falls in love with her. She doesn’t need to bring anything into the relationship but herself (and possibly kids).
But though I don’t believe women are completely incapable of loving another person (who isn’t her child), the woman loves a man as much for what he gives her (not all of them practical things like money, of course–some of this is how he makes her feel about herself, or a sense of being protected and safe, etc) as for who he is. That is, her love for him is going to be self-centered by nature. She doesn’t love him so much as she loves the way he makes her feel.
Ask yourself why Valentine’s Day is a day for men to buy women expensive things, take them to dinner, etc. The resource path throughout human history has been man–>woman–>baby. And I almost feel like one factor encouraging the rampant materialism today is the fact that feminism and the nanny state removed necessities from the list of meaningful things men can give women. The woman doesn’t need food or shelter from him–she can get those herself. She doesn’t need him to protect her–she has the police for that. But in order for the pair bond dynamic to work, resources have to travel from man–>woman–>baby.
So what’s left? A diamond necklace, or a nice car, or new furniture, or designer clothes! She wants these things from him because to keep her love alive she needs him to give her things she can’t get for herself. But they don’t work, because they aren’t necessary. In the short term, $100 worth of roses makes her feel wonderful, but they’re empty, so the feeling fades. And instead of fixing the problem–maybe she could stay at home, or only work part time, or whatever, or maybe he could game her into emotional dependence–she only wants more things. But it’s all empty because she knows deep down that they’re just pointless things she doesn’t really need. They don’t work.
I think a lot of women would be happier in themselves and their marriages being SAHMs whose husbands are factory workers than they would raking in $60 grand a year, no matter how much or how little her husband makes. Because the resource path (healthy dependence as Tupac put it) that is the heart of the pair bond is crystal clear in the former example, and non-existent in the second.
Zed:
We’re men. We can be bold, be daring, and realize that women are now our competitors and our enemies.
Indeed, but could one truly LOVE the creature one is fighting?
At the very least it will keep us from getting bored while we are sitting around waiting to die.
Heh. I like your style, Zed.
Cheers.
To start with, absolutely GREAT input, kis. This is some of the best internet dialogue I’ve ever been engaged in.
Having said that, I think you are still stuck in the old paradigm. The one beef I have with EvPsych is that it is too rigid and deterministic. Just because something has worked one way in the past, does mean that is the only way it possibly can work. Women love men for what they can get from them that they can’t get anywhere else. But all the things you mention go along with the old breadwinner/protector role.
What about a man being able to give a woman the feeling of not being totally alone? Of having someone who sees that she has more value than just “boobs, butt and knees.” Someone who gives a shit whether she lives or dies.
Aren’t these things of real value to a woman? Does it all boil down to nothing more than money? I thought women were the big ones on having “relationships”, now that pairing up is not based as much on coercion, are you telling me that women are so shallow that nothing else matters to them except “show me the money”?
Don’t you think your mother has some real fondness for your father that goes beyond his retirement fund?
@ Tupac
“Indeed, but could one truly LOVE the creature one is fighting?”
The question of the century. My answer is yes. But only after the fight. I don’t think it is possible for a man to fully love a woman till he has unshackled himself from the old paradigm and won the battle to make her do the same.
zed:
Aren’t these things of real value to a woman? Does it all boil down to nothing more than money? I thought women were the big ones on having “relationships”, now that pairing up is not based as much on coercion, are you telling me that women are so shallow that nothing else matters to them except “show me the money”?
It’s not quite like that Zed. Now that money/stability/protection are no longer an issue, womens’ criteria has become more rareified. Now it’s things like fame, popularity, coolness/hipness and hunky-ness which comprise the new standard.
Oh, and Game, and the ability to mindfuck a woman and her emotions.
NowTHAT’S progress!
And now that women are making their own money, think how much time that frees up for men to develop all those characteristics! They spend 8 hours at the office, you spend 4 hours at the gym and 4 hours playing WoW.
One key to understanding women, Tupac, is that their self concept is not firm like men’s is. They don’t have clear boundaries, some of them is always leaking out. Solitude drives most of them insane. They have a very difficult time being alone. They need someone around to keep shoring them up. Contrary to the crap of the past 40 years, some of them actually do like to feel like women, and they get damn little chance to do that.
Get inside their head and play around, you will be amazed at what you might find there and how much they will like you for it, or at least find you “interesting.”
You need to watch “Dangerous Liasons.”
So what’s left? A diamond necklace, or a nice car, or new furniture, or designer clothes!
Many things if a partnership isn’t solely defined by sex, take take take, and resource flow.
Firstly though a woman needs to realize Valentines Day is a a rather idiotic & misandrist holiday and a diamond war is forever. (Really…google some info on conflict diamonds and tell me if you really want the blood of a poor African on you for some sparkly shine. Sick!) These things aren’t special and aren’t something that is worth tears over not receiving or a man giving three months salary for. Until a woman acknowledges the fact happiness is not bought, nor does love come in gift wrap she can never find happiness nor can she have give or receive any sort of love.
Part of the beauty of being human, as opposed to an animal, ought to be overcoming biology the best we can and aspiring towards something greater, including self-sacrificing love not only for romantic partners, children, and other family members but for our fellow man ins general as well. The world is a mean cruel place but doing a little bit to brighten the darkness is rewarding for yourself and others. Far more than a consumerist holiday or piece of jewelry could ever be.
So what’s left? Many things are. Someone with whom to share mutual companionship in life and loving cooperation to find happiness and success in whatever way one defines such terms. Someone to invest in and give everything you have to help them out and allow them to accomplish their goals and plans. A person who is interesting, funny, a joy to be around, and always a bit of a mystery to unravel. A partner-in-crime for zany plans, explorations, and adventure. A fellow traveler through the seasons of life who knows and shares your history and pens their life story alongside you. An iron to sharpen iron and challenge each other to better, not be lazy, and realize that no might often be the worst case scenario when one takes chances to go after their dreams. A father alongside your mother if there are children. The yang to your yin. And on and on.
@Hestia,
Your husband is one lucky man!
zed:
Get inside their head and play around, you will be amazed at what you might find there and how much they will like you for it, or at least find you “interesting.”
Zed, it’s my forte. I’ve been doing this for a while now. You must not frequent Roissy’s blog.
You need to watch “Dangerous Liasons.”
BTDT got the T-shirt.
Shit, I even *played* Dangerous Liasons with Alias Clio. Didn’t quite pan out that time, though.
Tupac, I’m going to answer your question obliquely.
Women today are no different than they always have been. There have always been a lot of very miserable marriages – with some members of both sexes being stuck with really bad partners. That is why divorce has almost always been allowed, even if not condoned.
The way things are today, no one has to be stuck in a bad marriage. That works for both sexes.
You may not end up finding love. In reality is far more rare than anyone wishes it was. But, at least you won’t have to be stuck supporting a really sick screwed up bitch, and still not finding love.
We make of our lives what our abilities, and our luck, allow. If someone wants guarantees, they need to buy a Kenmore appliance.
I don’t. I know him mostly by reputation.
zed,
You should at least read Roissy’s articles under the categories of ‘misandry’ and ‘marriage is for chumps’. Those articles overlap with your subject matter.
I agree. I mean, my mom does say, “I love your dad because I like who I am when I’m with him.” He obviously gives her more than material things. But even so, her love for him is based largely on how he makes her feel.
And really, my love for my husband hung in there, wailing and hanging onto the cliff’s edge by the ragged ends of its fingernails, until the moment I realized World of Warcraft was more important to him than sitting and eating dinner with me and the kids every (or any) night, or coming to bed with me, or having a conversation. When I realized that if I replaced myself with a robot that cooked and cleaned and put money in the bank, he wouldn’t even notice I was gone.
But the weird thing is, when I told him to go, I was consumed with guilt. How on earth was he going to make it on his own? What was he going to do? It was more like kicking a troublesome teenager out of the house than separating from a spouse. And at that point I realized that my feelings for him had turned from wife/husband to parent/child. Oy.
And in my defense, I didn’t say women only want money. They want to feel safe, secure, sheltered, taken care of, and dominated–and there are other ways to do this than with money. What I was trying to say was that so many women (and men) turn to money to fill this gap because it’s easier than actually figuring out other ways to evoke those feelings in women. She doesn’t know what she needs–she just knows she needs, and the quick thrill of buying a $12000 dining room table from Ethan Allen makes her think she’s hit the nail on the head.
And for men, buying her an expensive gift is effortless compared to learning game. Handing her a credit card is easier than spending time with her. And at the same time, men and women are bombarded with the “more, more, more” culture that tells them happiness is a 70 inch HD flatscreen TV and a pair of Manolo Blahniks. Not only is it the path to happiness, it’s easy and it shuts her up for a while. Hell, he might even get a BJ out of it.
But it’s just bandaids on a festering sore.
Shit, at least some part of me would be getting some action, which is more than I got going right now.
Preaching to the choir. My entire wedding–including the ring–cost us less than $500. Other than house and vehicle, the most expensive thing I own is my computer–$700. Money gets you what you need. After that, it’s not important.
And yes, Hestia, your husband is a lucky lucky guy. And I’m also willing to bet you feel very lucky to have him.
Here is a very weird misandrist ‘blog’ that bashes MRAs using textbook feminist shaming language :
http://winecatsandfeminism.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/oh-the-jealousy/
I put ‘blog’ in quotes because it receives no discernable traffic.
I thought you were getting vicarous thrills by hanging out with us!
Seems like the national anti-alimony tide is growing. After this weekend’s WSJ story, and this mornings NPR piece, two news-stations have also broadcasted Alimony stories this evening:
Channel 8 – Northern Nevada:
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/69001572.html
Channel 25 – Boston:
http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/spec….te-alimony-laws
Alimony is only the beginning. It’s the easiest MRA issue to tackle, but will open the way for tackling other injustices on men.
@TFH
I’ve read a few of his posts – enough to know that we are pretty much on the same page. I don’t read many of the comments, though. He certainly does get a lot of comments, so he must be hitting a nerve.
kis-My entire wedding–including the ring–cost us less than $500.
Ours too! Always cool to “meet” another woman who did not buy into the party that costs more than a down payment on a house. What is the point?!
And, yes, I absolutely feel lucky to have my husband, more and more everyday in fact. Sometimes I’m amazed I’ve been so fortunate and doubly so at my young age!
TFH- Is that blog for real? The writing and logic seemed odd and comical even for a feminist.
Any port in a storm, Zed.
If I’m going to hang out vicariously with people, they may as well be smart ones. Big brains are so sexxay!
It has to be satire. It HAS to be. Otherwise, I may just cry, and then everyone here will make fun of me.
Well, then you are getting some “action” after all.
Hasn’t stopped you from doing or saying anything so far.
No it hasn’t. I mean, even I can’t believe some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth sometimes. Oh well. Keeps things interesting. Gotta do something while I wait to die.
Aww, just get a big box of blush wine, invite your mangy cat up on your lap, and curl up with some Emily Dickinson.
BTW, the best satire is unintentional.
My belief, which I will take to the grave with me, is that woman are incapable of any emotional thought at all towards any man. They simply process their self interest. I say this having endured a long marriage. The terrible truth I discovered was that as far as my wife was concerned I did not exist at all as a separate entity. I was simply an appendage to her existence. Let me give you some examples which might not seem so very important but are none the less telling.
My wife will begin to speak to me even though I am not in the room but a long way off in another room and could not possibly hear her. She thinks of me as only has part of herself, ever ready to hear even though I am not there to respond.
Also suppose my wife is reading something and feels compelled to impart something that she has read. She will look up, deliver her speech. Then even before I have chance to respond she will return to her reading so that she will hot even hear anything I say. Having said what she wanted she will completely cut me off and literally not hear what I say. Having said what she wants I have fulfilled my purpose as recipient of her words after which I go back to not existing at all. I hope you will understand what I am saying and will understand I am being accurate in my descriptions.
So that’s about it, as far as women are concerned men don’t exist at all as any sort of separate being. I feel we are more like meat and women are the merciless predators.
@ Tupac and Kis: Your posts were bad-ass. Cheers.
In other words, a woman’s love is something a man rents by the moment. Any moment that he doesn’t “make her feel” good, is a moment that she doesn’t love him, but hates him instead.
Gotta love your honesty, kis. What you are saying is exactly what I have observed over years of dealing with women. And I do think post-feminist women are so empty that it is simply impossible for a man to “make her feel” anything. Feminism and advertising-driven consumer culture have combined to create a chronic sense of dissatisfaction – “Good enough is not ideal.”
I think the key for men to remain sane and find a way to navigate the war zone of relationships is to start to refuse to take responsibility for women’s feelings. I say this as a result of having learned the hard way that I could pour buckets and buckets of love into a black hole, a bottomless pit, and I could never actually “make her feel” any better. And simply by trying and taking on that responsibility I was volunteering to be blamed. If I didn’t – couldn’t – “make her feel” what she wanted (in the case of one really awful woman I knew years ago – “special ENOUGH“), then it was a failure on my part, not on hers.
It was only when I realized the utter futility of “making” a modern western woman “feel happy” and stopped trying that my life stopped being chaotic and unpleasant.
I know that what I was trying to do was “give” a woman so much love that it would eventually fill up her bottomless pit and some would come back in my direction. But, I learned it doesn’t work that way – the absolute second a man cuts off the “love” fix is the second that a woman’s feelings for him turn from love to hate.
I have known many women who really could love. And they were an absolute delight to be around. But most of the women I have encountered in my life could only feel good when they were constantly receiving from a man, and they were an absolute horror to be around. What you are saying might be true for kis, but I have to laugh and say “but, NOT ALL women are ‘like that’!”
If women ever can learn how to really love, their lives can be full. If they aren’t willing to, men do not have to allow women to drag them into the emotionally bleak and empty pit that women inhabit.
I don’t think it’s necessarily true for me. I just think it’s something for men to think about. Especially since there’s something they can do about it that doesn’t involve working more or buying her stuff–just changing the manner in which they relate to her. Like Dave from Hawaii did.
Here’s a brief passage between two women I wrote in a WIP. One has been in love with a man for years and hid it from him so she could serve him, the other is his wife by an arranged marriage.
“He’s going to make you leave, and you don’t seem sorry at all!”
“I will have the memory of what it was like to lie with him the one time, and I will have my love for him.”
“But you won’t have him.”
“Love is not selfish. It doesn’t covet. It simply is.”
The young woman shook her head in bafflement. “I do not understand you at all.”
This kind of encapsulates what I feel about it. Even if you get nothing from it at all, you can still feel love and still be a better person for it.
Ok, I got ya.
And that is pretty much what the point of both these essays has been – the one who is doing the loving is the one who gains from it, not the one who is being loved. The trick is to avoid getting entangled with someone who is so addicted to the rush of love that they feed on it like an emotional vampire and end up sucking you dry – demanding more and more and more, and returning blame, anger, and emotional poison for that love. That is when trying to love someone who is un-love-ABLE (unABLE to love) gets you into trouble.
And, yes, it seems that young women do not understand this at all.
BRIFFAULT’S LAW:
“The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.”
and
“Women have no sympathy… And my experience of women is almost as large as Europe. And it is so intimate too. Women crave for being loved, not for loving. They scream at you for sympathy all day long, they are incapable of giving you any in return for they cannot remember your affairs long enough to do so.” — Florence Nightingale
“Women have no sympathy… And my experience of women is almost as large as Europe. And it is so intimate too. Women crave for being loved, not for loving. They scream at you for sympathy all day long, they are incapable of giving you any in return for they cannot remember your affairs long enough to do so.” — Florence Nightingale
Oh Florence, even though your experience of women is almost as large as Europe, don’t you know that not all women are like that? Gosh!
Hestia, Kis,
I think that blog is actually real, even though it looks like a parody. It is not clever enough to be Onion-like satire.
A more extreme case of projection, I cannot recall. Even online.
Also, if it was a parody, it would not ban comments, as that ‘blog’ does.
But isn’t that just as much putting conditions on your love? If you aren’t lovable, I withhold my love?
Let me put it this way. Nature made us the way we are–for men to lead and dominate within a relationship, and for men to be providors within that relationship. Maybe therein lies their natural ability to love selflessly–not only must they lead, they must provide.
Nature made women followers and responders. They naturally follow the male’s lead, but only when he plays the part. When he abdicates it, she’s anchorless and empty. When I look at it this way, maybe it is the case that men have to take the first step and approach their interactions with women from the right direction. Simply by women’s natures, they will follow the man’s lead–and by their natures, men are profoundly unhappy following the woman’s lead. If a man is alpha, she will follow him happily. If he’s beta, not only can she not follow him, but she’s left with a sense of being cast adrift.
Being alpha isn’t that hard to do. From what I’ve read of Dave’s experiences, the role of providor can be achieved simply by him deciding what restaurant to go to, the role of leader/dominator can be achieved by him saying “You’ll find out when we get there, you just gonna stand there hungry? Let’s go.”
In other words, everything he needed to cultivate her love was within him–it didn’t matter how much money he made or how many gifts he bought her (in fact, he likely buys her fewer nice things now than ever). He just had to learn how to relate to her as an alpha (but not an alph-hole) rather than a beta.
I reflect myself in a lot of my writing. The older character in that snippet is as gender-queer as you can get–like I am. Because of that, perhaps, she can see love as not coveting, but simply a state of emotion that doesn’t require anything to feed it. But I don’t know that it’s exactly fair for men to expect the average woman to love that way–at least, not romantically.
The love of a leader is unconditional. The love of a follower is by nature going to depend on the leadership qualities of the leader. Or am I overthinking?
kis-My entire wedding–including the ring–cost us less than $500.
Ours too! Always cool to “meet” another woman who did not buy into the party that costs more than a down payment on a house. What is the point?!
Awesome. You are women of praiseworthy values. So rare in today’s bridezilla culture.
On the topic of ‘GirlGame’, Obsidian has struck a few nerves – it is worth a look.
WAY overthinking.
Bullshit. Prior to the Industrial Revolution both sexes “provided” for the family. Life and livelihood were not separated. Clear back when we lived in caves, men might do more of the hunting but women certainly gathered.
It is exactly this dumping on men the responsibility to “provide”, coupled with enclosure off their land and separation from their traditional means of being self-sufficient so they could be forced into the factories and mines and work for wages, which allowed for the unbalanced nature of relationships between the sexes to develop.
Fostering this whole “noble cannon fodder” ideal of “selflessness” as a masculine quality worked for those who wanted to jerk men around and profit from their lives and deaths, but it was a very raw deal for the men themselves. This is why the changes of the past half century have freed men far more than they freed women.
Man can only remain “the disposable sex” as long as they voluntarily go along with it. A man has to volunteer for self-immolation, and when men stop doing that everyone dependent for their own survival on men doing it are in a world of hurt.
By destroying the “honor” in that old aspect of the male role, the culture has created a huge number of Atlases shrugging. It was created and perpetuated by the same social system and social pressures which were so “oppressive” to women, and now that women have destroyed those “oppressive social values” men are freed we are headed back to the briar patch where we live – and can live in peace.
In Japan today, up to 75% of men have no interest in women or forming relationships. They consider the whole mess just too much hassle.
This is the fatal trap of EvPsych – it can explain trends if correctly understood and applied, but it is principles, not absolute laws.
This is the fatal mistake women have made. I have said this over and over and over again – the only thing which kept men in their old roles were the same social forces that kept women in theirs. Now that those are destroyed, it is fruit-basket-upset.
Think about what you have just said, kis – if those characteristics you think are just so hard-wired into men that we can’t do anything else, why didn’t your own husband do that? Wake the fuck up!!
Gosh, don’t we live in interesting times?
In imperial China, taxes were collected in a way that mandated female productivity. Each household owed so much rice and so much cloth. The men planted and plowed the fields, while the women spun the cloth. Chinese men may have fed the nation, but the women enriched it. You’ve heard of the Silk Road, I’m sure… All that silk that flowed out of China all the way to the Roman empire was produced by women.
The sole provider role was a blip. It was no more than a temporary aberration from the norm, and did great damage by giving women an entitlement mentality.
And that damage is being compounded now that the US is “A Woman’s Nation.” The IR enclosed men off their land and away from their families and into the factories. Women, seeing men having so much fun dying young, stressing out, hating their jobs, and being cut off from their families, decided they wanted some of the action too. So, they rushed out of their own homes, dumped their kids in daycare, paid the dregs of the educational system minimum wage to raise their kids, and became totally addicted to constant unlimited consumption so that CEOs of soulless corporations can give themselves Billon$$$$ in bonuses every year.
Smart, real smart, I gotta tell ya’.
The sole provider role was a blip. It was no more than a temporary aberration from the norm, and did great damage by giving women an entitlement mentality.
Amazing how many people do not realize this reality. During my fundie days our church leaders would not hear any of this history as it wouldn’t work into their rule of women must never EVER work for wages, either inside the home or outside, or else they are committing blasphemy per Titus 2. *rolls eyes*
Even in the heyday of the SAHM which many people remember so fondly, many women were still doing hard work to help feed their families. Not everybody had the time to read Betty Friedan and ponder their oppression in their nice suburban houses. My paternal grandmother took in laundry which she washed the old fashioned way with a bone crushing wringer and washboard because they couldn’t afford the new washers and dryers. She did this job in addition to raising five children, gardening & preserving food, and tending to the house while my grandfather worked as a police officer.
My great-grandmother helped her husband build a motel with her two hands, ran the housekeeping end of the business, and took care of everything at home as well. All while they raised their children and were active volunteers in their community. I’m amazed when I think about my grandparents and great-grandparents. They did difficult work together, to build their lives and take care of their families, as did so many other families during their time.
Part of me can’t help but laugh when I see how the SoCons and feminists both spin the same lies about history. With the way both camps talk, you’d think that the common folk never existed and that fields tended themselves, factories operated with men dying on the job, the most dirty and unpleasant jobs didn’t need humans to do them, and women never worked alongside their husbands or did anything to contribute economically to their families. Most people didn’t live the cushy cozy lives both these camps seem to think was the reality for most people in the “good old days”.
I didn’t say the characteristics were hard-wired in men. They were hard-wired into reproductively successful men. Hell, back in the cave, my ex would have been an evolutionary dead end. But look at him now! Five kids!
What I’m saying is that women love men because of men’s dominant role in the relationship. And that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with money–money was just the most obvious in recent history because wives stayed home. Men were hunters, women gathererers, both contributed, certainly. But there was nothing keeping those cavemen with their women other than selfless love. Why hand over half your resources when you could keep them all to yourself? Men were perfectly capable of picking berries, but women hunting mastodon, not so much. What kept the man in the cave? Selfless love!
If men want to be loved by the average woman, they need to give her something she can’t give herself. That doesn’t mean money. It doesn’t. It means an anchor.
I’m going to relate the tale of the moment the last vestige of romantic love for my husband died screaming and wailing in the dark.
My whole family was visiting for a couple of weeks. On a Sunday, my dad, myself, my youngest and I drove down to the airport three hours away to pick up my sister and her two small kids. A few months before, we’d received a notice that the insurance on the van–in my ex’s name–was about to expire. I asked him repeatedly to renew it, explained more than once why I couldn’t do it. He finally told me to stop nagging and he’d do it when he did his errands. He went out the next day, did his errands, I figured it was done.
Well, I got pulled over at a routine checkstop about an 150km from home. The cop said my insurance had been expired for more than 6 weeks. I was stunned. He was very understanding, and didn’t apply the $900 fine or tow and impound my vehicle, but he wouldn’t let me continue driving. He escorted me a few miles back to the highway junction so I’d have access to services, and radioed my husband to come down and take care of the insurance at the one place in the area open on Sunday–two hours from our town.
About twenty minutes later I phoned to let my mom know we’d be late and my ex answered the phone. I asked him, “Why are you still there? The cop said you were on your way.”
“I can’t come down there! I have to work at five!”
I didn’t bother even explaining that he still had enough time to come down and deal with this, and make it to work. “Well, what am I supposed to do?”
“Just go to the place and renew the insurance.”
“I can’t. The van’s in your name.”
“Well, I don’t know what you expect me to do about it.”
I asked him to put my mom on, and she told me to rent a vehicle, pick up my sister and drive it home and we’d deal with the van the next day.
Two helpful tourists gave me a ride to the city 60km away, but the rental places were both closed on Sunday. The lady at the insurance place went over and above the call of duty and managed to find a way to fax an authorization to my ex so I could put a 24 hour permit on the van. She found me a ride back to my van for only $75 instead of the $150 a cab would have cost. We were back on the road and only two hours late picking my sister up.
My dad advised me to not even mention it when I got home–and to be honest, the anger I felt at my ex’s casting me adrift to fend for myself had been replaced by a sense of “I got myself out of a pretty sticky situation. Go me!”
I walked in the house, stuck my head in the door to find him on the computer, said hi. He looked at me with this defensive, angry look on his face. I stood there, wondering what the fuck to say.
“What’s your problem?” he said.
I sighed. “It might be nice if you said something like ‘You must have had a shitty day. You okay?’”
His response? “I knew you’d find a way to blame this whole thing on me.”
And the awful thing is, if he’d come to deal with the problem, I’d have loved him for rescuing me, and his forgetting the insurance would have been forgotten.
If he’d gotten out of his chair and taken me in his arms and said, “That must have been rough. You okay?” [not even an apology, ffs], I’d have loved him for comforting me and him not rescuing me would have been forgotten.
But what I got instead was the killing blow to my love for him. Because it was at that moment that I realized only loved me for what I did for him.
He’d become the woman and I’d become the man, and gender-queer as I am, my love is not selfless enough to survive that. He had ceased to be the anchor in my life. Had he been a female partner, I would have been okay being the anchor, and her tethered to me. But he’s not a woman.
(Sigh) Well just keep on believing that, dearie. If you can’t realize that women who are able to keep their man give him something of great value to him, there just isn’t much else to say.
Yes, we know your husband was an absolute shit. However, I am sure you would not be the slightest bit interested in any feedback about the ways you come across that might make a man not want to do anything for you.
You know…it amazes me how so many women who don’t need a man, are getting advice from a site like divorcedwomenonline.com to well….get a man.
In imperial China, taxes were collected in a way that mandated female productivity. Each household owed so much rice and so much cloth. The men planted and plowed the fields, while the women spun the cloth.
That is why, in today’s high-tech workforce, the only women of high productivity (including those who report to me) are Asian.
They do their job (which is highly analytical in nature) at full competence, and don’t complain.
That’s the point, though. I loved him selflessly for a long time. Long after any normal person would have left. Women can love like that. I just don’t know that it’s always in their best interests to do so. It certainly burned me.
Actually I would.
“But look at him now! Five kids!”
This guy had to have something going for him on a genetic level. How else did he end up with 5 kids?
I still think he must have been the “bad boy” type that women stupidly are drawn to. I’m not saying he isn’t a complete duoche bag, I’m just saying how much blame must be laid upon women for giving such a duoche-bag five kids. Was he a master manipulator? Was he that good at the bait and switch? How do women keep ending up choosing the wrong man to the point of breeding with them? Did they not see any big red warning signs before they had his babies? Go make some babies with a cancer researcher or aero-space engineer for gods sakes women? If your not going to stick with the guy because of his shortcomings, at least make sure they have genes that will be benificial for civilization as a whole and just just genes that make your gina tingle? Stupid sure does seem to out breed smart. Thank god for wars and diseases.
“… as a whole and not just genes that will make your gina tingle?”
I don’t even know if it was bait and switch. I honestly think he believed he wanted the same things out of life as I did. He was a bad boy in his youth (hence his ex and his first two kids), but wanted to settle down and get serious. And he managed to pull it off for more than three years, so I really think he believed what he was telling me.
I thought I was the resolution to his midlife crisis, but I’m figuring now I was the beginning of it.
If women are the choosier sex, they sure do suck at it. Most guys I know from high school who got the most girls never finished college and generally screwed up their lives. The more girls they got, the more of a druggy/criminal they turned out to be, and I’m counting the ones who came from good homes. I no longer have patience for female buyer’s remorse in the mating market. Even when they pick a good one, they still want the worthless cad. My mom ditched my dad for a good looking vacuum cleaner salesman!! No lie. My dad is smart, has aged gracefully, and pulls in 80k a year as an engineer. The vacuum cleaner salesmen lasted maybe 3 years. She destroyed my family and made my male adolesence that much harder. Why? Because my dad was boring! Well jesus christ, for that shitty of a reason, why don’t all men ditch their wives when they hit menopause! Thats a damn better reason for fucks sake!
Oh, he wasn’t stupid. We both have above average intelligence, and our older two kids are in the 98-99th percentile. I can’t imagine either of them being unsuccessful due to lack of smarts. Lack of motivation, maybe…
Game might have kept her from leaving a good providor for a vacuum cleaner salesman.
That’s the thing I’m getting at. It doesn’t matter how much you make or to a certain degree what you look like. It’s more subtle than that. Female self-interest makes sense–if she loves without self-interest, her children starve. Look where selfless love got me?
But her self-interest doesn’t need to have anything to do with the tangible things a man can give her. He doesn’t need to be a wage slave. I bet mine could have quit his job and lay on the couch for the next 30 years and I would have loved him if he’d been an anchor in my life.
Women are not the choosier sex. They are just the sex that gets to choose.
“Game might have kept her from leaving a good providor for a vacuum cleaner salesman. ”
Oh yeah, my dads a big nerd for sure, but you’ve got to take the good with the bad. If you choose “sexy genes” but the guy is unreliable, thats life, no reason to blame all men for it (like my mom). If you choos a good provider, but he’s boring, thats life, no reason to blame all men for it (like my mom, see where I get my issues from). Women have got to get over their desire for perfection. You really can’t have it all.
“Oh, he wasn’t stupid. We both have above average intelligence, and our older two kids are in the 98-99th percentile. I can’t imagine either of them being unsuccessful due to lack of smarts. Lack of motivation, maybe…”
Well, you got that out of the relationship at least. Your poor son will probably suffer immensely for his brains. Take him to a hooker when he 17ish, and let him get it out of his system.
“Women are not the choosier sex. They are just the sex that gets to choose.”
I don’t believe that. Its evolved genetic hypergamey. Its most likely exsaserbated by being able to choose, and further by the inherent narcisism of modern women, but I think it would be their anyways, on a genetic level.
We are all choosey, women are just inclined to be choosier in my opinion.
Leaving an engineer for a vacuum cleaner salesman was to feed her children?
kis, I’ve met meth heads who were less frenetic and all over the place than you are. Take a chill pill, and start thinking about what you are saying before you say it.
Here you have one of the “kids” talking about how his mom fucked up his life, and it’s because his dad didn’t have enough Game to keep her from leaving a good provider? Put down the pipe, get up from the computer, take a walk, and clear your head – you often don’t make sense, but at the moment you are REALLY not making any sense.
Oh shove the martyr bit. If I didn’t know better I’d think you were angling for one of us here to bend you over our knees and beat your ass until it glowed as red as a stop light.
You may think you were being “selfless”, but everything you say comes across as giving him what you thought he wanted, or should want, and not understanding what he actually did want.
As men, we have heard all the female tales of woe we need to hear in a lifetime. Stop being such an attention whore.
I’m actually thinking of pointing him toward game. He’s already trying to put the man shoes on in his interactions with his sister–especially since his dad’s not around. I almost think he’s practicing on her, but OMG, I pity his first girlfriend. He’s domineering, overbearing, demanding, egotistical.
Game might help him soften those qualities to the point where they’re attractive to the average woman.
The salesman made her feel something the engineer didn’t–dominated. To a woman, being dominated means being protected. Plus, it’s exciting.
Problem is, we’re half in the cave and half out of it.
Isn’t that what the OP was about? How you poured all your love into a “bottomless pit” and got nothing for it? Well, maybe you didn’t give her what she actually did want. Maybe she wasn’t a bottomless pit at all. Maybe you, like me, just kept giving her more and more of what you knew how to give, because she didn’t know what she really wanted or how to ask for it, and you didn’t understand what she needed.
*Many hugs to kis*
I am sorry to hear about what happened. While I disagree with some of the things you have written, I feel like you are still lost, adrift and wandering, seeking but feeling unhappy and bitter that you were dealt this hand. You seem to suggest that “game” is what you needed and would fix things, but I can tell you that it is but an illusion. True leadership, dominance and inner strength is all too rare. You may find a temporary simulacrum in a guy with “game,” but it is the fast food version of a genuine human connection.
Forgive me if this is unwanted advice, but I think that you should try to forgive yourself and your ex-husband. It will not be easy, and it will be a process for some time. I am also healing from my past and my own failed marriage. I chose a bad guy, and I have had my own excuses and my own feelings of selfless martyrdom, but I’ve moved on.
I cannot say that I know very much, since I am younger than you and have not had nearly as much life experience, especially in childrearing and family matters. But I’ve learned some things, and in some ways I am lucky because I met someone who guided me onto a path of true love.
What’s past is past. Learn from it, digest the lessons, and let it go. Stop thinking of the “could have” and “should have” scenarios. You are hurting yourself by rehashing history and holding onto the pain. You have great capacity to love! Don’t let one bad person make you fear giving your heart again. Fear is the antithesis to love. And love is the most amazing gift we can ever give to ourselves and to the world.
You have a choice. You can choose to live in negativity, pessimism and despair, always mistrustful and thinking of other people in a negative light. Or you can choose to live in positivity, love and light, accepting the wrongs of the world as lessons on the path towards greater understanding.
You can focus on those things in your life which give you joy. Your family, art, music, play, exercise, community, creativity… anything that makes you feel that life is worthwhile, that lifts your spirit higher. You have so much love and joy inside of yourself, but you have shut it all off because of the injuries in your past. Reach inside and let yourself feel that again.
I would also suggest that you consider stop posting at places where men congregate to air their grievances about women. Yes, it is a male bonding mechanism and a good movement in some sense. It can also be instructive to read and participate in discussion from time to time. But you are spending quite a lot of time and investing a lot of your emotional energy here.
You are obviously compassionate and empathic, and you feel a great deal of guilt, so you are letting yourself get beat up. You are being called a bad mother, a woman with faulty taste in men, and an attention whore. Don’t continue to do this to yourself. Have some self-respect! That’s part of what your ex-husband took from you. Take a break, for your own sake.
As this post states, you cannot change the world, but you can change yourself. You sound intelligent and self-aware enough to make a mental and emotional shift. Turn that energy of “complaining” into a spirit of acceptance, gratefulness and calmness. There are so many people in the world who live with joy despite terrible circumstances. They are not fooling themselves. They overwhelm pessimism with possibilities, dispel the darkness with light, and turn hate into love.
I write this to you with much love and hope you will not be offended by these words.
Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! That is the most intelligent thing you have said in a long time.
Listen to this woman, kis. She has great wisdom.
I have watched you spinning yourself up faster and faster, not knowing whether to defend yourself, defend women, bitch about your ex-husband, shit or go blind.
The faster you spin, the more annoying you become, and like a lightning rod you draw men’s frustration and anger. You aren’t going to be able to work out what went wrong with your marriage among a bunch of guys who don’t have a lot of reason to think kindly toward women.
All you are going to do is find evidence to reinforce the tired old ruts you have been running in for a long time. And, provide the men here more evidence that attempting to discuss things with women and work things out is a waste of time.
You have an attitude of opposition. It is easy to naturally fall into argument mode with you. No one is 100% right and no one is 100% wrong, but two people never get sorted out which parts they may be right about and which ones they may be wrong about by arguing about it.
Listen to Hope and Hestia. They are women with good marriages who might actually have something you could learn from them about having a good marriage.
“Female self-interest makes sense” and “But her self-interest doesn’t need to have anything to do with the tangible things a man can give her. ”
Self interest makes sense, just like mugging someone out of self interest makes sense. And yeah, I agree, self interest doesn’t have to be about material things at all, it is inherently a personal choice. You can choose whatever you want in the moment, and can choose to change your mind just as easily. Thats the problem.
Its in my self-interest to kill my brother so that I get more inheritance, doesn’t mean its okay. What you, and women in general, need to understand, is that you are driven by instincts, instincts that were beneficial a long time ago, but counter productive today. We cannot blindly follow our instincts. We cannot be slaves to our emotions. I have the instinct to have sex with 16 year old girls and the emotion of anger that makes me want to do something drastic to Feminists. I choose not to follow my instincts or emotions. I am better than them. They are more counter productive today then beneficial. My logic and reason guides me. Feeling something does not make it right. If women want to do what feels good, fine, but so do I then, and I enjoy having sex with young girls and killing people that piss me off. Am I making my point? I’ll stop ranting.
Hope, you don’t offend me.
Part of what initially attracted me to this place is that it’s been providing me a better understanding of what the heck went so very very wrong in my marriage. I’ve been learning a lot about gender relations and I’m hoping I can incorporate them into any future relationships I might have.
I try not to dwell on the past in my day to day, but it’s been a year since I split with my husband, and I do feel I need to reexamine things, put them in context, figure out why. I’m pretty sure I’ll learn more here than at divorcedwives.com.
Thanks for your words and your encouragement. Hugs.
Well, see that’s the thing. She wasn’t a bottomless pit, and neither was my ex. But shouldn’t the onus be on both men and women to love each other in the ways they need? But from the tone of your post, you seem to see a woman needing something different from what you gave her as a character flaw, instead of just her nature.
I mean, say what you want about selfless love–it’s nice. But we’ve both discovered that it only stays selfless up to the point you realize the object is unworthy. But is it always that the object is unworthy, or maybe it’s just that it needs something different from us and it’s starving in the land of plenty?
I do like and respect you Kis. Just so you know. Nothing I say is personal, just trying to pry open people to understand them as best I can, or help them understand themselves better, or hopefully, a little of both.
Kis still isn’t putting her kids first by finding them a reliable father figure.
“No one is 100% right and no one is 100% wrong, but two people never get sorted out which parts they may be right about and which ones they may be wrong about by arguing about it.’
No offense Zed, and I understand your growing impatience at spinning your wheels with Kis, and I have the highest respect for you and your thoughts, but I thought that the whole point of arguing was so that we can sort out which parts may be right and which ones may be wrong. At least in terms of intellectually honest arguing, ie true debate (which your point may be that the current interaction has devolved into something else).
You’re preaching to the choir here. I mean, I basically had to come to the point where I knew if I stayed it would harm my kids, and I would be miserable for the rest of my life, before I conceded defeat. I hate that women don’t feel satisfied with what they have–because it really takes very little to satisfy me.
Honestly, I’ll stick with a man for a looooooong time, and I’ll be faithful and do my thing. Game on his part would help him get more sex, but I wouldn’t need it to hold me there. And he’d still get sex without it.
If all I cared about was my self-interest, I’d just be single forever. I don’t need a man to eke out a basic existence, and I’ve never had a taste for expensive things. I can give myself all the orgasms I want, and I don’t even need batteries to do it. But I do long to connect in a meaningful way with someone. Not giving up just yet.
Like I said, once the “argument” starts, communication stops. Let’s go back to my original post, before the argument began –
At the time, I would say I was stuck in a co-dependent mode – I tried to MAKE her happy, to MAKE HER FEEL what I WANTED her to feel. I was still dealing with her as an object.
Now, I’m not going to go into the reasons from my upbringing why I was never keen on the idea of dominance, other than to say that I wasn’t. Ok, maybe she wanted to be dominated. But, I grew up in the 1950s and learned a 1950s model of relationships, and then got shoved into a world of adult relationships where those did not apply and everyone was making it up as they went along and making a major mess of the whole thing.
Maybe I really didn’t want to give her what she wanted, because giving that would have not been what I wanted. And maybe you really didn’t want to give your husband what he wanted, because that would not have given you what you wanted.
Despite the massive volume of words that has gone back and forth on this thread, there is still very little communication which has occurred.
In my original post I did not say one thing about “selfless love” – I know, I just searched the page and the first use of those words was by you. So, all the arguing you have been doing is with what you thought I said, not what I actually said.
And to further compound that, you are literally still talking about an “object”. That is the problem – looking at your “object” as “worthy” or “unworthy.”
Love is not a thing, and it is most certainly not an instrument with which to pry or bludgeon someone else into being what you want them to be. And, it does not “conquer all” – despite what the pop drivel says.
Your last line is a killer – aren’t we all starving in a land of plenty?
Do you suppose as a culture we will ever figure out what we are doing wrong and start taking steps to change that?
And that is my point. This are issues about people’s LIVES!!!! Nothing is more significant to them. Nothing brings up more emotions, and frustrations, and passion. We cannot view them dispassionately in a cold and rational manner.
So, all of us need to be aware and self-aware and watch for signs that the argument has taken on a life of its own and become argument for the sake of argument. When it does, it is time to take a time out.
I’m looking! I am! And in the meantime, I’m practically throwing them at their dad, hoping them seeing him as a self-sufficient MGHOW is enough to counteract the damage of the last few years of our marriage. I hope so–they see a guy who works full time and takes care of himself. Better than the example he gave them when we were together.
Granted. I think we got on about selfless versus unselfish because of the assertion somewhere in the comments that a woman doesn’t feel love for a man–she’s incapable of it. She accepts love from him–she’s the object of it.
So we come to the place where we have to ask–is love (object or otherwise) enough to keep a man and a woman together?
And a flag goes down on the play….
Aksiom – I agree with you a lot of the time, but not in this case. Kis’s kid don’t need a “father figure”, they need their own father.
Kis, STOP!!!
Stop defending yourself, stop bitching about your ex husband, stop running around in circles trying to cover all the bases all the time!!
Stop beating yourself up, stop beating him up, stop feeling like you have to defend womanhood here, and stop feeling like everything said here about women is about you – it’s not.
If you can’t read stuff here without it winding you up and making you feel the need to pop off a reply, then you really do need to take a break.
@ Hope
I think some of your points are right and comments could be directed differently at ‘kis’. But – ‘where men congregate to air their grievances about women’. Quite rightly so. It is good that men are airing their greviances otherwise nobody would know. Some of it may offend you but this is the most logically, intellectually thought out debating website I have come across.
Yet things get ‘emotional’ sometimes but the majority of visitors have the capability to decipher such. And the truth hurts, but we have to debate it and you rightly say – ‘and a good movement in some sense’. Yes, the end result is a more wiser person/man, aiming for better, more meaningful relationships than one men have been socialised into thinking is required of them. The change of many a man’s indoctrinated mindset may seem ugly, at present, but I think it is for the better. You are witnessing change.
A point I’m noticing is a consensual (?) desire (cry, even) for things to move away from the materialist/consumerist culture that dictates to the framework/ideal of a man/woman’s relationship. More men are pursuing an ‘anti-materialist’ approach, and it won’t stop. Men have come to realise or pursue much more from relationships I think. And hence placing a new (?) onus on women.
And you mention you are ‘lucky’. Well let’s ‘hope’ that some of us here come across the same luck. Believe me, many of people here I bet are working on it.
You being a woman, I’d say the odds of you ‘healing’ yourself are significantly higher than many males. This has been debated many a time on this website I take it. Men have it hard (in my theory I would say ‘harder’) moving on but I will use some of your positivity for guidance and am sure ‘kis’ will too.
Kis, this board is not here to be your therapeutic outlet, or a place to work out all the unresolved stuff from your marriage.
Once again, going back to what I said in the original post – which said nothing at all about keeping a man and a woman together, but was aimed specifically and only at men and how they could be happy regardless of what any particular woman, or women in general, chose to do.
Now, stop trying to drag all of us into your unresolved marriage stuff.
Then why title the post “Why Western Women are so Empty and Unhappy”?
Kis, STOP!!!
Stop defending yourself, stop bitching about your ex husband, stop running around in circles trying to cover all the bases all the time!!
Stop beating yourself up, stop beating him up, stop feeling like you have to defend womanhood here, and stop feeling like everything said here about women is about you – it’s not.
If you can’t read stuff here without it winding you up and making you feel the need to pop off a reply, then you really do need to take a break.
zed, hope, and the others have offered you some important words imho.
Reading MRA blogs and websites has sometimes left me feeling a bit upset and offended and when it has, I’ve taken a step back to regain my focus on why I believe the MRA movement to be an important one. Many men are very angry, and understandably so, and might find the internet to be one of their few outlets where they can safely express their disgust at the culture without a backlash of some sort. They need these places without censorship and shame for their thoughts and feelings. To read on these boards as a woman requires you to have enough self-respect to not become too upset over insults that are thrown your way, just as you must be prepared to do if you confront idiotic feminist drivel.
Just last week I was advised I am an “entitlement princess” because I wouldn’t find it fine and dandy for my husband to cheat on me while he’s deployed since this couldn’t adversely effect him, myself, or our daughter. Several days ago I was told I was a child because I used the word ‘blame’ on a post on my blog about conspiracy theories rather than ‘responsibility’. My dictionary seems to believe that to place blame is also to place responsibility, so I guess this fine book must be wrong. This is mild compared to what feminists aimed at me when I used to pen my old blog, and that was quite nice compared to the backlash I got by socially conservative women just before I pulled the plug at that blog. Growing a thicker skin is important if one wishes to engage in debate or read online.
With that said, I have learned much about relationships and have had my marriage enriched as a result of reading in the MRA blogsphere. I’ve been reading several anti-feminist, anti-circumcision, father’s rights, and MRA blogs since high school and began to read more and more as I became aware of how many issues are interconnected. I never realized what wisdom could come from my readings, beyond simply understanding the world in which I live, but the words of several very smart men, including zed, taught me about far more than the social/cultural issues I set out to research, unravel, and understand better.
Take a step back if you need to, kis, at least from sharing your thoughts publicly as you learn and try to understand yourself, your ex-husband, and what might have went wrong. You do not owe people here an explanation, but you do need to find this knowledge out for yourself. This will likely come in a safe place where you don’t feel as if you’re being bullied or picked on.
Because they are. Look in the mirror for exhibit A. Unhappiness and misery just drip out of a lot of your posts.
And, as men we don’t have to be. Feminism freed us, and trapped women.
The key, for me, was to Go My Own Way, make happiness in my own life, and let Western women figure it out for themselves. You have already admitted over and over that women only love us for what they get from us. Instead of continuing to give them more in hopes of getting love back from them, why don’t we just learn to love and learn to insulate ourselves from their unhappiness?
Ok, maybe we can focus more on solutions instead of finger pointing. You guys write well and thank you for your intelligent and masculine outlook, but how about someone write about what men want and like from women and we mass produce it manifesto form and I’ll throw from the rooftops of NYC and DC to start. I for one am going to start a revolution of anti-feminism and being a woman, I’m quite sure that will make me unpopular in the eyes of my fellow gals. I am willing though. Let’s recover society, let’s swing the pendulum back to the middle and SEEK and FIND balance, eh? Break down wants and needs for sex/relationships/friendship/love/companionship, etc. Players need not contribute due to the temporary nature of their wants but everyone else should.
I don’t really feel as if I’m being bullied or picked on at all. Although I do get defensive when someone says I don’t have my kids’ best interests at heart, because every decision I’ve made, right or wrong, has been because I thought it would be best for them.
I suppose I’m just…terrified of the possibility that men en masse will do as Zed suggests.
I agree with much of what you say, but on this we must differ. I’m not terrified that they might follow his advice en masse (certainly I intend to do so). I’m terrified that things will continue such that they have to.
Well then, best get busy coming up with ideas about how to give men reasons not to.
At my age, kis, women do not have much to offer me except grief, baggage, and unpleasantness. And yet, they still demand much in exchange for the pain they cause. You have about 20 years to keep men of your generation from reaching the same point I have.
Forewarned is forearmed.
“And that is my point. This are issues about people’s LIVES!!!! Nothing is more significant to them. Nothing brings up more emotions, and frustrations, and passion. We cannot view them dispassionately in a cold and rational manner. ”
Not that this is relevent, as there are always outliers, and hell, I’m actually very emotional, but I’m pretty good at looking at things dispassionately. I even understand the female side of this war more than I would admit, and I would never bring up their legitimate gripes or concerns about men, as it wouldn’t advance my sides position and instead would rather hinder it. I might play more fair than I should, but I’m not going to help the other side out. I do allow much of my emotion to seep through because I feel it is a powerful tool of persuasion, especially for people prone to relate more on an emotional level. One mans crying over his lost children in a custody battle may be worth a hundred rational arguments to the unthinking masses.
On that note, one thing I find quite rational, but I still can’t get across to the female population because it is about my personal male emotional experience, and therefore hard for females to empathize with, is that growing up in sex saturated culture, surrounded by sexually signaling females in their sexual prime, and being (I have solid reasons to believe this if you want me to go into them) far hornier than the average male, my developmental and adolescent years were nothing less than pure -PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE-. No hyperbole intended. This torture existed from 5th grade, all the way through college. It was psycho-sexual solitary confinement. It was being starved my whole life by slave masters who kept me chained by the table from which they ate feast after feast. Kis, do you understand this? Do you understand why I have resentment for female sexual power. A power that is often misused, as in your case probably, by using it to attract the wrong type of man, abused, as many girls think flirting and playing hard to get is just a game, when it is really more like a cat playing with a mouse before it devours it, or not used at all, which means it is wasted and not used for any good at all. How many women reward nice, honest, caring men with their sexuality. How many pity fucks do men get, who are so broken by the opposite sexes rejections that they can no longer even approach a women? Zero. How many women look down upon men for being so affected by their sexuality, as if that biological imperitive is just an itch, yet at the same time demand that its power holds sway over and tame the most untamable of Alpha beasts.
Maybe I’m a pathetic looser. That doesn’t change the fact that my pain is ignored or dismissed by every female I have ever shared it with. It is outright mocked by Feminists. They often say MRAs are loosers who can’t get laid and have mommy issues, and in my case, that is the case. In shaming me with those words, the psychological torture I endured is openly mocked by them, like I’m some pathetic creature not deserving of the most basic human consideration.
Of course I’m not horny anymore and get laid whenever I want. But sex barely does it for me now. My psycho-sexual development has twisted me that much. That is why I’m into the BDSM community. My sexuality feeds off of my anger. Now, instead of always being horny, I’m simply angry. Women created my rage. That rage still fuels me, and I suspect it always will. I’m 31 and don’t see myself stopping this war against Feminism until I die. Tell all the women you know that they have naively created a monster by weilding the power and gifts granted to them by God in selfish ways. Tell them you fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant.
Your failed relationships, your failed marraiges, are nothing compared to existential hell I went through. Keep in mind I left out the details, which paint a much worse picture than even described.
Anyone who thinks this is too much information can go jump off a cliff. I hardly can be affected by words at this point. I remember all the fights I used to get into, and how alive I felt after them, even after the ones I lost. That pain was the most life affirming thing in my life. I’m that damaged. I’m here to see it doesn’t happen to anymore young men than it has to.
And do I see you telling her to take back their bio dad now that he apparently has his shit together again? No, I do not.
And am I likely to ever see that happen? No, I am not
What her kids deserve is the best father kis can get them within a reasonable span of time. Unfortunately, though, kis isn’t willing to compromise on her hypergamous desires. . .remember?
So yeah, despite my 7 y/o’s assertion that he really wants me to get married again (I think he sees good dads at his friend’s houses, and wants one), I’ve gotta say it’s going to have to be one hell of a super-humanly decent, impossibly honorable guy who’ll convince me to go down that road again. And it’s kind of sad that men who would have made me happy before all this–average guys with flaws but who are basically hardworking and decent, are going to have to jump through hoops to prove themselves to me.
Said it before, saying it again: feminism is about prioritizing women’s interests ahead of those of men AND CHILDREN — even the feminist’s own children.
It simply is not that hard to find a reliable and grateful beta provider. It’s been a year. The obvious conclusion is still that kis hasn’t done it because she’s not willing to put her children’s best interests ahead of her own petty, narcissistic hypergamous ones.
Please also note how this actually supports the thought and behavior recommendations that follow from your ongoing thesis about love here, zed. Flag on the play my ass; bad call, dipstick.
“No, in fact they are not capable of love”
Zed, I agree with you 5000% on this statement.
Dogpiling on a cripple is bad form, Aksiom. I’ve been fucking with kis’s head since she showed up, and she has been a remarkably good sport in letting me lead her on to make the points I want to make. Yes, she has proven my points repeatedly. And, she has gotten soundly berated by lots of guys.
But, she has still kept coming back and hanging in there. Why?
I suspect it is because she knows somewhere down deep inside that things are as fucked up as we say they are, and just like us is searching for a way out. She’s got spunk, and grit, and is not a quitter. Made a few stupid mistakes, yes. But, so has everyone else here.
“This is only a test. If this had been your real life, you would have been given better instructions.”
There are some guys here who are so angry at women that they have just written off all women. But, what is one of the fundamentals of Game that kis has also mentioned here over and over – leadership by men.
That does not equal 20 different guys throwing their autobiographical shit into her already muddled head. It means taming the shrew and knocking the nonsense out of her until she gets clear on what she needs to do.
Would YOU take her on with her life the way it is? It’s great to say “go out and find a new father figure”, but until she gets her head on straight it would be pure dumb luck if she stumbled across one that was any better than the one the kids already have.
I don’t know if women even want to resolve the mess we are in. But she is terrified that men en masse will become like me. That is good. Scared is good. People tend to listen better when they get scared.
I’m willing to give women a chance to grow up by giving them hell.
Besides, it is just so damn much fun!!!!
Will you marry me?
“Throw me in the briar patch”…..Zed, you are on fire man!!! When I have a date and I am going to get great loving all night long and my mate at the office (the only one who knows much about my private life…the rest think I am just a happier than usual divorcee) asks me if I am doing anything tonight our little code in case anyone overhears me is “I’m going to the briar patch.” LOL!! When I first started dating eastern women we used to get drunk and laugh about how much hotter they are then my ex and say “She wants to divorce me? Oh no!!! Throw me in the briar patch!!!”
The other thing about eastern women is that they are much more in tune with nature and much more natural people. One of our favourite activities now is to walk in the forrest not far from where I live. We also take trips down to the black forrest in germany and just spend the day in the forrest walking and being together….it is a much more natural way to be….I am not sure how but we seem to be more ‘in tune’ with one another after being in the forrest for a few hours.
“but the guys who aren’t already trapped will simply get as much tail as they can as long as they can”
I would argue no guys are ‘trapped’. They can educate themselves now on how to refuse the adjudication services of the private run for profit company called a ‘divorce court’. If you understand you will know that the Family Court has the same jurisidction as McDonalds. You have to consent to eat the burger.
The linked articles weren’t quite what I was expecting. While I agree that the third article indeed portrays a clueless woman whose selfishness and narcissism corrupted her chances of achieving “true love”, the first two really aren’t that appalling. In fact, I would say the author of those is almost a somewhat commendable example of a modern woman. Her posts seem to be a reflective and contemplative analysis of her life situation and show an emergent, mostly honest, understanding of her mistakes. Her first post posits an idea that is congruous with your argument in this article: that perhaps one needs to appreciate what they have and “learn to love”. She also gives the impression that she understands that divorce is not a trivial matter to be pursued on a whim, which is beacon of hope when compared to the average Western woman’s brash and irreverent attitude towards the subject.
The second post also ties into the idea of optimistic outlook and appreciation for the benefits of your life situation. The author realizes that her marriage isn’t so bad after all, and that maybe she just “needs to adjust”.
anoukange
“I for one am going to start a revolution of anti-feminism and being a woman.”
-About time that somebody got it in to their thick scull, that the only gender that can REALLY make a difference, when it comes to turning this around, before we go over the cliff, are women themselves…
I salute you !
anoukange November 4, 2009 at 2:04 pm
“Ok, maybe we can focus more on solutions instead of finger pointing.I’m quite sure that will make me unpopular in the eyes of my fellow gals. I am willing though. Let’s recover society, let’s swing the pendulum back to the middle and SEEK and FIND balance, eh?”
anoukange,
you don’t seem to understand. The real men have FOUND our solution. We are going to refuse to co-habit with women. We will refuse to pay income taxes, alimony, child support. Women can pay those. Men who don’t have kids will refuse to have them. We will create men only businesses, men only clubs. We will party and get drunk with our mates. We will play hard, and play to win.
As far as women go? We will only date the hottest bits of pussy we can score in our target profiles. We will never be faithful. We will kick the ones out who voice the tiniest instance of the word ‘no’. We will have women do our cleaning and our washing. And they will be grateful.
With all the ‘non-money’ we make we will live great lives as women fall into poverty and then are housed in the crappiest council houses you can imagine because they can’t compete on the job market to make ‘non-money’. As they fall into economic oblivion they will be more and more willing to be retained as sort of ‘housepets’ to the well off men. They will lose the vote and they will lose property rights because they have shown they are not responsible enough to have them. I see a future where alpha men and high betas get to go to the council housing and select a woman rather like you might go to the RSPCA to select a dog. Only he will have no obligation to keep the woman. She can always get a job in the pin factory instead.
For those insane few men who want to have children the common law of children being the property of the man along with the mans obligation to care for those children will be returned. Men who abuse their children will be severely dealt with by other men. All in all, the solution is that women will become third class citizens, if not 4th class citizens after our children and our dogs. Well done!! Women have won the ‘race to the bottom’. LOL!!
Why would we seek ‘balance’? That implies us men must give up something to allow women to participate on an equal outcome basis. Sorry. We are now going to compete on an equal opportunity basis not the legally mandated women are winners basis. And since men are better than women we are going to massively outcompete you in every way, shape and form. Men will obtain ‘trophy women’ according to their means which will highly incent men to do well. The women who can not make it to ‘trophy’ status will be left with the less well off men if any. I expect that prostitution will become far more widely accepted as women fall into poverty so it will become even easier for me to get the sex they want without paying for a woman as a wife.
Those guys like me at the top of the economic tree? We have a great life. And guys further down the economic tree? Once they come to grips with this new way of dealing with women? They are going to work their butts of to get money to improve improve the quality of ‘trophy woman’ they can get. Yep. With no such thing as ‘until death do us part’ all the guys will be competing for the hotties in the 20-40 range. All the fuglies will be poverty stricken or work themselves to death. Marriage was created to oppress men into forcing them to take on the burden of a wife. Now we are ‘liberated’ as well we won’t seek balance. We will seek domination and control.
By the way, isn’t the current unhapiness of women also that, because a lot of it is based on consumption which is futile in its ‘relative’ form?
Writer Oliver James boiled down consumption into two categories – relative and survivalist. Sadly women fall more into the relative bracket where consumption and happiness are gauged by having more than the other (keeping up with the Jones’s).
Men are more commando shoppers (in and out) or consume more for the sake of surviving, practical necessity, just a theory I’ve come across.
Get a bunch of women together and it’s all about what their man does and can provide. Note that women are darn competitive in these get togethers. Supposedly friends but overly comparitive behind the scenes. And that’s why they’re not happy, it’s all ‘relative’ and not for more meaningful means. I’m not arguing for peasent lifestyles but the pressures to keep up with the Jones’s are too great.
Girl A comes back from holiday and brags about where her man took her. Girls B, C and D all wow in amazement.Then girl D announces she’s being taken to some nice place too. Watch Girl A’s face drop. It’s all about who has the best deal and who got the best catch.
Women’s unhappiness is scary – they’ve achieved singularity but are also blind to the fact that their consumption habits are motivated mainly by competition amongst themselves and impulse. Look at the ’sales’ days too. Madness.
Kimski November 4, 2009 at 3:22 pm
“About time that somebody got it in to their thick scull, that the only gender that can REALLY make a difference, when it comes to turning this around, before we go over the cliff, are women themselves”
Nope. The damage has been done. What women CAN do is volunteer to sit on de jour juries and try women for crimes they commit against men because our courts today are corrupted and don’t do this. Once men can see that they have recourse to law and justice via credible all female courts that the women defendants can not complain about then we can get on with dealing with the bad guys who started all these problems…if we are successful in dealing with them life will turn out for women as I noted above. If not life will turn out far worse for both genders.
Guys like Paul and Zed will confirm. Women have been offered the hand of peace for years and they bit it. We are not going to settle for “Gee sorry, back to status quo please?” Nope. We are going to do what men do. Compete and win and then ‘buy and sell’ women like the commodities they will become. Anyone who tries to tell me I need to “give women a break” will be laughed at. As Paul said “What if there was a war of the sexes and men showed up.” Well. We have shown up. And an awful lot of men are awfully pissed off and they are not going to be nice about it.
Globalman
Works with me, I´m to old to give a damn anyway, and having given up on marriage and women in general, I really don´t see any truce as something that would have any impact on my life, whatsoever. I were thinking about the generation of boys, that are in the process of being messed up right now, and for times to come.
@Globalman
If that were the only solution, then the Spearhead would not need to exist. I never thought the day would come when I would get accused of being a softie, but I think the vast majority of men would prefer a reconciliation with women over any other solution.
Your side definitely represents the stick side of the motivation, but where is the carrot?
Vengeance may seem desirable when the anger is hot, but when it cools, the sense of having been wronged and having something taken from you is not soothed by harming someone else and taking something from them.
My goal all along has been to make feminism into women’s problem more than it is men’s, so that women would become motivated by their own enlightened self-interest to turn around on the sisterhood and start to eviscerate the bitches in a way that only another woman can do.
I think an open thread titled something like “A Woman Sues For Gender Peace” would be a good addition to the Spearhead. As we have seen from the writings of women like kis, there are many women who see that the situation is as messed up as many men see it.
There are plenty of men who are going to do what you suggest regardless of what women do. But, I think there is an even larger number who would rather end this stupidity that is tearing families apart and setting men and women at each other’s throats and find peace with the people who are already here around them. They will not leave and turn their backs on women unless women do nothing, or try to do something and fail.
No good general attacks simply to vent his own spleen.
So…many of you guys want Pakistan? Fine, go there. Although countries have fall out for me, I just cannot give the back to civilization and act like a rabid animal fueled by hate.
In a personal note, this is coming from someone that had fights 6 to 1 against bad boys that had all the females and left me dry in high school. I just won because they were too coward for getting in gangs and I went to the gym. That was until the P.E. teatcher told me “If you keep doing that you are going to kill someone”.
Perhaps expresing my agresivity helped me to not going mad, but killing someone in a rage attack scares me. Following your blind wrath does that. And is an scary thought. So I can see from where you are coming from.
But many males, including myself will NOT throw the civilization and become rabid animals or lash out at women. Sorry, no chance for that. Let the women fix their shit? Fine, but really, I’m going to tell you what I realized in my graduation from that hell: It doesn’t matter. The raw hatred doesn’t deserve all your time and energy.
Not from a moral high ground, not because is the right thing to do, is because we are free to live our lives the way we want to. I’m a concient human being that can choose not to care, and frankly, I became happier when I made that decision.
Hope this is what you wanted
Hope this is what you had in mind
Hope this is what you wanted
Cause this is what you’re getting.
I hope you’re choking
I hope you choke on this…
–Tool
zed November 4, 2009 at 4:16 pm
“but I think the vast majority of men would prefer a reconciliation with women over any other solution. Your side definitely represents the stick side of the motivation, but where is the carrot?”
Zed, that IS my reconciliation offer!! LOL!! Be a 3rd or 4th class citizen and be happy about it or off to the glue factory for you!! LOL!! Well, maybe not the glue factory. But really. A serious question. With the world over populated what are women good for any more? We don’t actually need all these women to be producing all these babies. And they can’t do any other job that can not be done by a man. Name ONE job that a woman can do, other than have a baby, that a man cannot do just as well. To keep our society running we need motivated men. To motivate them they need food, sleep, sex and money. That’s all. Why bother with a ‘carrot’ if the stick is big enough? Meh….forget carrots for ‘the modern western woman’.
Think about this. My mates and I have often talked of the idea that it could well be that the hot looking women are just kept in apartment blocks all around cities etc. They have the obligation to give sex to any man who selects them and this is how they earn their keep. They would be motivated to really take care of the men to get ‘return business’ because when they can’t ‘attract’ enough ‘business’ any more it’s ‘demise pill’ time. There is simply no need for them any more. There is nothing useful for them to do once they are not good looking enough for sex. Really. What does a women do now from 50-85 apart from use up resources? As a man who was with 1 woman 23 years and now get to date a variety? I am much happier with the variety. If we organised it so I didn’t have to go through the hassle of finding the new ones and they were just handed to me on a platter that would be nice. ‘Relationship’ with a woman? Don’t make me laugh. I did that. It doesn’t work. I do ‘relaxionships’ now.
Take the realities of prostitution. A prostitue can make between 5 and 10 men very happy every day. And most men would be very happy to get that 2 or 3 times a week. So one prostitute can keep, and lets keep the numbers low, maybe 20 men happy. But hey, let’s halve it and make it 1 in 10. That ratio of 1 to 10 is a very bad ratio for women. What if we created these places and we gave these women the very best of everything including medical care and what they did in return was ‘keep the men happy’. So, if us men create a society where all the good looking women 18-40 were housed in ‘facilities’ where their obligation was to ‘keep the men happy’ what would be wrong with that? The ugly women can raise the kids. The older women? Well, there would be no older women. The ugly women would be out of sight…hey, it gets better all the time!!
You may call this radical but it’s not that far from the truth in Russia today. Women claim 30% of the time they have sex at the job interview. And 100% of women claim sexual harrassment at work which can’t be true because the ugly ones won’t be harassed. Womans Nation. Yes, Russia in 1936 was a womans nation. Once the men fought WW II and took dominant position again? They have treated women like the 3rd class citizens they are for their betrayal. Talk to a few russian woman and ask them what it’s like in Russia now.
“There are plenty of men who are going to do what you suggest regardless of what women do.”
Zed,
you should try coming to Germany. German men are doing this in their millions. They just refuse to co-habit with the german women. They keep taking eastern brides if any at all. Prostitution is legal in Germany and there are millions of them. The brothels are often in well populated places and the culture is that it is perfectly ok for any unmarried man to be going in and out. You can’t be more than 200 meters from a whore house in any major german city and usually you are within 200 meters of 4-5 of them. It took me all a little by surprise at first.
You have no idea how many men told me openly just to go down to the whorehouse when I was getting divorced. Even some WOMEN said the same! The volume of prostitutes is also another reason that ‘normal’ women put out so fast. They know that the guy they are hitting on is 200 meters from great sex pretty cheaply. So they have to make the offer. In the really BIG brothels there can be 50-80 girls. A lot of my mates are trying to convince me it is a good idea but I figure I am already doing well enough.
If all these other men you say might like to meet half way? If they got a taste of my life….or prostitution became as socially acceptable as it is in Germany and men did that? There is no way guys will stick to one woman in preference to a series of younger hotter women. I’ve seen both sides of that coin. I know which one is shinier. The BIG worry I, and I guess most men have, about prostitution is diseases. We don’t want it to drop off. So if something could be done as to excellent medical facilities then more men would be interested, I’m sure….that would be the ‘brave new world’. I could never go back to one woman and be happy with that. And women I date openly say if I marry them I can keep having other women. That’s how desperate they are. Germany is much further down the ‘feminisation’ track than the USA.
LOL. Sorry, Globalman, doesn’t interest me. I was one of those who stormed the barricades during the Sexual Revolution, and then got stuck in the Army of Occupation it left behind. All those 23 years you were married, I was in the trenches. Believe it or not, even variety gets old after a while. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn’t sleep with more than half of the women I have slept with.
But, every man has to choose his own way. If you are making up for all those lost years, that’s your choice.
My situation is totally different than yours. Never married, no kids. Not one cent ever paid to family court. My house will be paid off before I retire, I have a place in the country, and lots of family ties here. None of those girls have anything I haven’t seen before, plenty of times. I don’t care how well they know how to use it, I can’t imagine that they know any tricks I haven’t seen before, plenty of times.
Nah, I like it here. A woman would have to offer me something unique in order for me to even bother anymore.
Call me jaded.
I tried to stop this stupid war from getting started, have fought for 40 years to keep it from getting as bad as it has, and if men’s only choice to win is clobbering women, then count me out.
I’ve already won because, aside from pure paternity fraud or a false accusation, they can’t touch me.
Believe it or not, that’s why I got married. Sounds crazy, but there you go. I guess I believed in something higher and more pure. Boy, was I violently disabused of that notion.
Zed
Same here…Never married, no kids, 2 houses in the country, girlfriend living in one of them, boat, 50 m. from a fjord.
No worries…
Welmer
You should make a thread like the one, zed mentioned above at 4:16 PM.
I do. And looking back over my posts, I have to say I sounded pretty glib and dismissive of what you said about your mother. I’m sorry about that, because I do understand where you’re coming from. And every damn day I feel so lucky to have the parents I did.
I feel the same way about women’s sexual power as you do–jerked around and left high and dry. Not because I’m a nerd, but because they lead me on and then giggle and run back to their boyfriends. I had one woman on Halloween dancing right in front of me flashing her cleavage while I tried to play pool, and she knows I’m bi. I finally had to tell her if she kept it up, she’d better not complain when I made a grab–and I’m well aware that I could only get away with saying that because I’m a woman.
Women can be the most vicious, self-centered people out there. They can. It’s a shitty thing to put another person through.
Thanks, Zed. Some of these posts just make me feel so fucking hopeless. I love my town because it’s probably the least feminist place on earth. It’s great for families, because they stay together. Not so great for a woman with kids who’s going to be 39 in a couple weeks who’s discovered the only unmarried men my age here are single for a reason–gay or players or borderline psychotic.
I don’t know what the hell I’m supposed to do. I don’t know what to do about you guys or the world, and I don’t know what to do about me. My kids’ dad has picked himself up, but I just can’t bet everything on the small chance that once there’s someone there to catch him again, he won’t just let himself fall the way he did before. But I’m facing a choice between being alone or going back to the way things were or luring a good man from his own family, and all of those options suck balls.
Lothargio, I don’t personally know any women like that–but as I said, this is a small, traditional town full of blue collar people. But yes, I think feminism and materialism feed off one another to make women not only unhappy, but just bad people.
And Globalman, I just don’t even know what to say. I really really don’t. I’ve met Jewish survivors of concentration camps who hate Nazis less than you hate women.
You have fjords in Denmark? I’ve visited Norway (my great-grandfather was from Trondheim; great-grandmother from Bergen), and seen beautiful fjords there, but I thought Denmark was just a bleak sand-spit.
We’re working on it, and will get there soon. The ontogeny of this site is something to behold, but it still takes time.
Welmer
They´re smaller, just as beautiful, and still called fjords….I guess it´s a scandinavian words for big laguna…
I´ve been at both trondheim and Bergen in Norway…Great fishing there…
It’s in the queue and ready to go. Have a look at turn it loose any time you want.
Zed
Couldn´t find out where that novel were..So I got the local librarian looking into it..called her yesterday..:)
That hatred is real, kis. And, there are concentration camp survivors who probably did not have as raw a deal as Gman did.
And, if you ever figure out how you add to it, a huge leap forward in gender relations will have occurred.
You do not see that mine is just as deep, because I have intellectualized it, but it is there.
Zed
And yes, it´s Bradbury, -my girlfriend remembered it too..
I’m going to put you on notice, kis, that your days of using the Spearhead as a platform to bitch about your ex-husband are over.
I ran B&G out of here because the Spearhead is not going to go the way of so many men’s websites in the past and get invaded by a bunch of women who turn it into a Koffee Klatch and try to impose “wimmins rules”, and brag about their sex lives and how big their tits are to a group of men pretty much defined by having a lot of difficulties with the women who have been in their lives.
I cut you a lot of slack because so much of this is new to you, and I know that you really aren’t intentionally being a bitch.
From this point forward, if I see a post by you bitching about your ex-husband, I’m going to delete it, or if it contains something worthwhile, just the part about your ex-husband. I know you don’t know what to do about the problems, but one thing you can do is keep in mind that this is a men’s oriented site that deals with men’s perspectives – and even that restriction puts us all over the place.
Don’t keep adding fuel to the fire that is already raging, and you will find that for some odd reason you aren’t getting as many beer bottles and pieces of rotten fruit thrown at you.
You could always just tell me so I can stop doing it right away. Because from the way he talks, me existing (and not being a prostitute living in poverty yet) is enough to add to it. It’s hard to filter through the vitriol to get to the meat. It’s like when you have food poisoning, trying to pinpoint what you ate that didn’t make you sick.
kis, do you think you could just shut up for a day or two please?
@ Zed
Not that I imagine you need it for a second, but I heartily approve of your drawing a line on the content of the threads.
Okay. I get it. I’m just…at a loss. I feel like you guys want something from women that I’m not in a position to give. I got nothing, really. No clout, no pull, no platform to speak from, it’s just me and my kids trying to live in this shitpile we’re all in without making things worse for anyone else.
If I’ve made things worse or harder for you guys, I’ll stop posting.
kis – here’s a hint – when guys start clobbering you, you have just said something to piss them off. Instead of arguing, defending yourself, and generally continuing to blabber on, it would be a real good strategy to STFU until you figure out what you said that pissed them off.
Just a friendly suggestion from ole uncle zed.
You know the biggest thing you could give men, kis? Something that would make them like you a lot better?
Lack of argument.
We don’t expect you to “fix” all this, kis. But, the least you can do is not keep justifying it.
See, I think this is one thing that screwed up your marriage – you put so much pressure on yourself that you jump in and try to “do” or say something to “fix” it, and that just makes it worse. Listen, don’t blabber, and don’t argue.
You’re already our mascot, and lot of guys are quite fond of you despite how annoying you can be.
Yeah. Yeah. When I was a kid, it was stray puppies, baby birds, nerdy kids that got picked on. I hate seeing things that aren’t right, and people getting the shaft. And I hate that I can’t stop it. I can’t even fix my own fucking life, what the hell am I supposed to do about you guys? Shit.
Sorry.
yip.
Kis, anyone who knows me very well knows that if I am in the mood to crack heads, I will. If you aren’t bleeding, I’m not pissed.
Men need women allies, and we need women as outspoken and energetic as you. We’ve been bringing you along for a long time.
Your good intentions are admirable. Now, all we have to do is teach you how to turn them into good acts.
BUT FOR GOD’S SAKE, RELAX. This mess has been building a long time. Now matter what a whiz bang you are, you can’t fix it all at once – so you might as well slow down, take it a bit easier, and stop acting like a damn hyperactive wiener dog.
With all the time and energy you are spending posting here, how do you ever find time to work or take care of your kids?
@Paul Elam
I figured you would get it.
Haha! I make good money by the hour (usually), and we live on next to nothing, so I don’t have to work full time. The time I spend here is time I would have spent writing if I didn’t have writer’s block. Laugh if you will, since I’ve been doing nothing but writing stuff here–but I have three WIPs that are stuck.
And I’ve been slacking on the heavy cleaning. It’s the time of year. First sunny day, and I’ll be up vacuuming the stairs and cleaning behind the fridge, but right now? Bluh.
Suggestions? I’ll do anything within my power but dishes. I already have enough of those.
Zed, I think you know what you can do with your misrepresentative falsely accusatory knighthole shaming language assclownery. In fact, you can and should do it multiple times.
As far as I can tell, all kis keeps coming back for is the attention. And no, I wouldn’t take her on, but so what? I said it simply is not that hard to find a reliable and grateful beta provider, not it simply is not that hard to find an Acksiom. So you’re even more unentitled to come the ref at me, after trying to move the goalposts like that.
I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself. I’m enjoying myself too, in showing the less experienced guys the how and why of the speedy rule of thumb application of adult standards to people like kis and what the result should be, namely indifference.
We’ll see if your moderation discipline changes her behavior. But I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for her to admit that what her children actually deserve in a new father right now is incomparably more important than what she thinks she deserves in a new husband someday.
Because again, and as always, it’s not what people say; it’s what people actually do. And you know just as well as I do that there’s still a veritable host of good, reliable, trustworthy provider beta candidates for job of new father out there whose mere existence doesn’t even register in her field of view in particular and that of the average woman in general, let alone said men’s potential suitability for marriage.
”””””’Women, in the main, do not want equals. Well, not for their boyfriends/husbands anyway. In the old days, women WERE weaker, dumber, dependent. They felt a kind of love born out of THANKFULLNESS and APPRECIATION. But when women become independent, much of this vanishes — corrupt divorce law or not — and so we then begin to see the hairy black heart that was beating menacingly at the core of womens’ souls ALL ALONG.
”””””””””
Although for the sake of mankind I will test this theory.
on November 5, 2009 at 1:48 am Gunslingergregi
I have thought it before as a test but yea I think I will follow through and place myself at the financial mercy of my wife as her final test to see if she is really some kind of saint on this earth or something and see how the dynamic plays out.
on November 5, 2009 at 1:54 am Gunslingergregi
Can we find one good woman. The bible says no. I like to think its possible.
on November 5, 2009 at 1:59 am Gunslingergregi
Little backstory she said I could come home and chill after working the 5 years and she doesn’t care about me having money she will take care of it with what I gave her already. She said she just wants to have me there so yea just taking her at her word.
”””She doesn’t need to bring anything into the relationship but herself (and possibly kids).”””’
lol Gun expects a little more from his woman and funnily enough they tend to rise to expectations.
”””””’The woman doesn’t need food or shelter from him–she can get those herself. She doesn’t need him to protect her–she has the police for that. But in order for the pair bond dynamic to work, resources have to travel from man–>woman–>baby.
””””””
In us though it is not woman providing for themselves when they have the baby and are a single mother. It is the governemnt and the man paying child support that helps quite a bit along with some free medical insurance for her and baby. So it is not this super strong empowered woman. It is a leech.
The whole fucking problem in a nutshell is that men are not requiring enough of woman. You need to require them to become self sufficient before marriage. They need to be required to build something before marriage and kids by the men in their lives. That includes men with money. Don’t just give them a free ride with you hard earned money but make them build something on their own as well.
””””””’Paul Elam November 3, 2009 at 7:33 pm
@ Tupac
“Indeed, but could one truly LOVE the creature one is fighting?”
The question of the century. My answer is yes. But only after the fight. I don’t think it is possible for a man to fully love a woman till he has unshackled himself from the old paradigm and won the battle to make her do the same.
”””””””’
Word And that is why I am willing to invoke a new paradigm.
””””Bullshit. Prior to the Industrial Revolution both sexes “provided” for the family. Life and livelihood were not separated. Clear back when we lived in caves, men might do more of the hunting but women certainly gathered.
It is exactly this dumping on men the responsibility to “provide”, coupled with enclosure off their land and separation from their traditional means of being self-sufficient so they could be forced into the factories and mines and work for wages, which allowed for the unbalanced nature of relationships between the sexes to develop.
””””””
Truth
””””Part of me can’t help but laugh when I see how the SoCons and feminists both spin the same lies about history. With the way both camps talk, you’d think that the common folk never existed and that fields tended themselves, factories operated with men dying on the job, the most dirty and unpleasant jobs didn’t need humans to do them, and women never worked alongside their husbands or did anything to contribute economically to their families. Most people didn’t live the cushy cozy lives both these camps seem to think was the reality for most people in the “good old days”.””””””’
Hell and yea. Teamwork. And with how fucking easy it is now in us every team should be able to become free. So really people are just too fucking stupid to take advantage of the sytem in place aeven though they are more “educated” supposedly than before.
I suppose it’s a philosophical difference, Aksiom. You and I have been pretty much on the same sheet of music in the past, so I don’t get your abrasiveness on this issue.
My preference would be that there wouldn’t be a “veritable host of good, reliable, trustworthy provider beta candidates for job of new father.” I would like nothing better than for women who screw up a perfectly good first husband to never be able to find another one. Maybe then instead of sitting around obsessing about “Do I really Have It That Bad?”, they would start counting their blessings and start thinking about how good they do have it.
(Warning to kis, don’t bother posting some sort of “Oh, but I did that, but my worthless husband did….” blather, blather, blather)
I think that all those “good beta providers” are the biggest cause of men’s problems these days. Manginas like that are the ones who always bail women out of the mess they have created of their own lives and save them from having to face the consequences. Women will never learn as long as fools like that keep giving women a steady stream of potential new provider husbands.
An almost-40 y/o divorced “genderqueer” woman with 3 kids doesn’t just have “baggage”, she has “freight.” These pandering Beta providers lining up to sign on to pull it for her make women believe they don’t have to have any concern about saving or holding on to the marriage they already have because some fool out there will be mincing to give her another one and agree with her totally that the whole problem was her ex-husband and the Beta will turn himself inside out trying to be a better husband that her defective old one.
My personal opinion is that the best possible course of action is for her to take what she has learned here, realize that she had a role in the breakdown of the marriage, become humble enough to actually try to work on it instead of obsessing about blaming everything on him, and maybe give her kids back the father they already have. Fathers are not “plug in providers”.
@ kis
Interesting, sounds like a traditional hard-working town where you live. What I mentioned probably happens where you are but it’s more hidden. Ok, you might not see ‘Girl A’s face [literally] drop’ but listen to her the next day bitchin’ about how Girl D doesn’t deserve it. I hear this a lot, I can’t avoid it either, all these cellphone conversations I try not to eavesdrop on when I’m out and about, but people choose to have loud private conversations. Puts me off women tho’.
Living in the city and being exposed to a relentlessly driven mass materialist/consumerist culture creates this competitive streak in women, who praise each other, put on a smily face but man get them alone and all they do is criticise and bitch. It’s like therapeutic for them. And that’s where the ‘relative’ drive comes in. It’s not frugal and practical but more about what friends are doing and then demanding the keeping up (subtly in an interpretation of love), by offloading it onto a guy. Women may say they don’t want things from a guy but a woman’s materialist whims will always manifest. It’s how they control these whims realistically, not relatively, that will secure a more stable relationship.
Yes. This was very reasonable. Thanks.
1. Own your own shit.
Bhetti has already said she would read it. 
2. Own your own shit.
3. Own your own shit!
4. Write us a really good, get-em-sqirming-in-their-seats-and-creaming-in-their-panties, erotic short story to post here. Incorporate everything you have learned here, and all the MRA themes that you understand. See if you can write in a way that will turn men on as much as it does women. Call it something like “zed’s kis.”
You claim to be a writer – so write. Maybe this will break your writer’s block, establish a whole new genre of romance fiction that appeals equally to men and women, and open up whole new markets for you.
Freight, huh? Why do I all of a sudden feel fat?
For what it’s worth, decent, average beta males aren’t lining up around the block to date me. I live in a town with about 400 men between 30 and 50. Probably 85% of them are married. Most of the rest are single because they want to be, or because they’re drunks or drug addicts or gay or players. And there are plenty of younger women with fewer kids out there for the few decent ones to date.
I’m thinking a dating site is going to have to be the way to go–but having a LTR with a man 200km away would probably mean moving myself and my kids that much further away from their dad.
For all that I love this town, for all that it offers me in the way of a sense of community, if you’re not paired up permanently by the time you’re 25, it’s a hard road ahead. Just sayin’.
Hah, I don’t know. Politicized erotica? I’m not sure I’d even know how to go about it. Despite the whole “the personal is the political” stuff, I just write what I like.
Can you give me a set-up? A one time fling between an average, decent guy and the girl of his dreams? A woman discovering what she really wants from men when the most unlikely one gives it to her? Female’s POV or male’s? I think that would likely make a huge difference as to how much men would enjoy it.
I follow along with some erotic literature now and then – it is quite an interesting genre, actually, and like the book “My Secret Garden”, it is an interesting way to study sexuality and differences between the sexes. Female authors tend to write their sexual stories in a distinctly different manner than males.
One thing I have noticed is that more and more male authors are beginning to put real life twists into their erotic stories – lol, shitty ones. For example: One story was about being asked to be a “natural sperm donor” for his wife’s sister & her infertile husband… anyways, at the end of the story, after all the huffing and puffing, the author put in a twist: the couple/in-laws were poor… they divorced… the sister-in-law took him, as the donor, to court, and sued the bejeezus out of him and won, because he had a better paying job, and now he’s forced to pay for the next 20 years. Lol!
I am seeing this quite a bit. Male-authored erotica is now often involving the legal pitfalls of being with women. The “Black Widow Theme” but dialed back to reflect, accurately, the current cultural & legal climate, mixed in with heavy sexuality. The sex angle is quite an interesting approach, because as we all know, sex sells.
kis
“..establish a whole new genre..”
I were thinking the same thing, when I mentioned making Zed look like Sam Elliott, and you wrote back-”I don´t do westerns!”
- Why not try it ???
-You got something that will be interesting for men, in an inviroment traditionally viewed as a place where “men are men”. -You got the MRA-stuff from in here, -you basically got a whole lot of different characters, that you can draw upon from these posts. And you wrote at one time you were a “prairie-girl”, so obvious you know about horses, and life on the plains…
-And perhaps writing in a different genre, and milieu for a change, could annihilate that block…
Just an idea…
Actually, I know more about trucks and the oilpatch than horses and cattle, but I see what you’re saying.
But westerns and historicals aren’t anything new. I think it would have to be more a “mindset” genre than a specific time/place thing. That is, doesn’t matter where you set it, only that it has a man who behaves like a man and a woman who becomes a woman in the truest sense when that man treats her like one.
But at the same time, I wonder if it would come off as a woman casting off the shackles of feminism only to throw the shackles of chivalry back on men who might not want it anymore? I have some ideas, but I don’t know if they’ll be well-receieved or whether they’ll come off as me dictating what women want from men, and really, if it’s going to turn me on, it has to be that to some extent.
I’ve got some good lines running through my head right now, though, so that’s a start.
kis
Make it a modern-day thing.Throw in a gang of escapees from a FEMA-camp for men? Some female overlord-kidnapping and a good hunt in the mountains? A sort of the-strong-becoming-the weak-thing?And a lone gunslinger, -every western should have one of those…lol!
kis
Loose the horses-Trucks are better…BIG machines !!
kis
Ships in the night, then ?
I was thinking more an overachieving, competitive, modern woman discovering what she really wants is to just be…savaged. And a regular guy–nothing alpha about him, really–discovering he loves doing the savaging, at least in the bedroom?
//There was no battle, vital or petty, I would not fight to my last breath, no concession I would not demand of a man, no backing down for me, ever, until I got what I wanted. Why should I treat my lovers any differently? And yet the flowers they would buy me–so beautiful at first–always withered, their apologies and placating curdling my pleasure. Every victory hollow the moment it was mine, yet I only craved more of the same. //
Yeah, it’s crap, but I’m working on it…
@ kis
“I’m thinking a dating site is going to have to be the way to go”
I’d say steer well clear of dating websites, they are just one big scam, but that’s coming from a guy.
The women can just upload a profile, sit back and wait while the men come a chasin’. Been there myself and never again. Waste, waste of time chasin’ who knows what. Back when I tried, the ratio was about 10 men to 1 lady (apparently). Nowadays it must be a zillion. Bet you can’t wait…
I could go on about this, where companies start off with fake profiles, eventually genuine people register and ‘purify’ the system a bit but the whole thing is one big con. Ask any dating website who their first customer was and they couldn’t tell you. And how come websites appear out of nowhere with hundreds of ladies ready? Bull. Men get so exploited sometimes. Learnt the hard way and am glad for it.
For the ladies you’re gonna attract allsorts but at least you get the attention and get to do the choosing.
When it comes to dating websites I’d rather bump trolleys in the supermarket. Many guys need to wise up to this.
kis
-Oh, please do !!…must…not…yawn…;)
And Lethargio´s right..Dating site´s are scams..Tried it 10 years ago…
Poo on you, Kimski.
@Lothargio
My sister actually met someone through eHarmony–they dated for about 10 months, then moved in together. He’s a nice guy. But yeah, it was a long odyssey through a shitload of free sites before she realized spending a little money might get her better results.
Honestly, my options where I am are somewhat…limited. I have no shortage of guys asking me out, but this being a small town where everyone knows everyone’s business, I know most of them are drunks or players or not right in the head. The ones who aren’t are usually married. Bluh.
kis
“The huge metaldoor almost caught the ironcast chains, they had placed around his ancles, when it salmmed shut behind him, with a boneshattering sound. A huge spider, startled by the vibration, scrambled across the wooden floor to hide in the far corner. His face was aching and pulsing from the repeated beating, and he had to force his brused eyes open, to see the small bench and chair, placed in the small room. Across the cell, through a small, barred window, he could see the constructionteams working on the gallows, where they were going to hang him and his three buddies, in the early morninglight, on the forthcoming day…
No, that´s crap !
LOL!!
Kimski,
Um, spelling and comma abuse aside, that’s not nearly as bad as some of the stuff I’ve beta-read for people who have “aspirations”.
kis
Yeah, I noticed-*cringe!*
Kimski
so then what happens?
21Guns
A darkclad stranger, -which are really not that strange, but are really his brother, rides into town at sundown. He gets hold of the jail keys by impersonating one of the guards, after getting him drunk, and they all make a run for it. This does´nt come over to well with the FEMA-camp leader, who is a real mean bitch, so she gathers a possee, and goes after them…-Naw, just messing around…;)
Let´s stay on the topic here, okay ??
Hey, I thought you were the writer.
Use your imagination, girl.
See if you can build a story around this -
You take it from here. How is she going to break through his icy indifference, and why is it there? How is she going to respond to this failure of her sexual power to put men in her thrall?
Is that you??!! That’s a shit-ton of facial hair, dude.
Nice ass, though.
kis
Um, eh, -I´d go with the Sam Elliott look…..ROFL !!!
That’s me.
Both the girls and boys here will get a kick out of this.
BusinessWeek has a debate area called The Debate Room. Their topic this week is “Low Income Women: Get Married”. You can read it here:
http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2009/11/low-income_wome.html
Zed
Nice meeting you, man !!
I can totally envision you going down the highway on a big bike,leatherjacket and those shades !!
-Don´t know why, but I kinda thought of you like a Gandalf-type of guy…:)
Okay, maybe not that old…
zed
as, that is, sorry…:)
geez, my english sucks…:)
Well, now that you mention it, Kimski –
Your English (Danglish) is fine.
zed
Yeah, that´s it…What type of bike is it ??
Got an old suzuki-but nothing like that…
Honda V45 Magna – 1988
I had a Suzuki about 25 years ago.
zed
Well, it´s in need of repairs,-it´s in the garage..partly in pieces..
Been a long time since I rode it…
Smashed my knee to pieces on it, a couple of years back..
-You know, guys riding bikes at age 46, and all that..
zed
Not all that bad, though, -got a “weather-knee” now, that´s more precise than the weather man….LOL!
43, sorry..
zed
kis got real quiet, huh ?
Think you scared her???
Ragnar
Godmorgen !-Sovet godt ?
Actually, I was reading another thread, thank you.
Scared? As if.
Zed, if I write you into an erotic story, I’m trimming the beard. Authorial intrusion, perhaps, but it’s the way I roll…
Don´t know why, but this make´s me think of The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel….Weird….
Gesh!
Stop feeding his ego before he show us his nudie pics!
What-what? Nudie pics? Have to say, I would not be averse…
zed:”In Japan today, up to 75% of men have no interest in women or forming relationships. They consider the whole mess just too much hassle.”
Source for that percentage?
A main problem which causes massive social malaise in Japan is that it is way too overcrowded and over-urbanized — living like sardines in tiny apartments in mega-cities tends to deaden the soul and will-to-live because it is such an unnatural living arrangement for humans due to the fact that it is very much unlike what we evolved in.
If that percentage is true, than in some sense Japanese men are just reacting in keeping with their healthy instincts for societal and nationalistic improvement; they sense that Japan is unsustainably overcrowded and that the population needs to drop by many tens of millions for Japan to be a more desirable place to live for all Japanese men, women, and children.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20090510×1.html
You are such a horn-dog.
Ouch! That may the sign that it is time for you to give up riding. Injuries and pain just take all the fun out of it.
I think kis is angling for full frontal. It would blow the Spearhead’s PG rating, so you don’t need to worry, Rob.