Readers of my Welmer blog may be familiar with this piece, but considering the the recent debate over zed’s latest post and the fact that The Spearhead draws a wider audience, I’d like to bring it to the attention of our new readers. The issues it raises certainly deserve discussion.
Perhaps nothing illustrates our society’s blindness concerning the true nature of female sexuality as clearly as the widely held belief that rape is anathema to female desire. If my suspicions are correct, this fiction is likely tied to the same paternalist sub-theology that is responsible for feminism, the family law industrial complex, and widespread, legalized discrimination against men. However, before I get into any speculation here, let’s take a look at the evidence.
Matthew Hutson, writing for Psychology Today, raises the question “Why Do Women Have Erotic Rape Fantasies?” To prove that they do in fact have these fantasies, he points to studies and statistics, including the following:
A recent analysis of 20 studies over the last 30 years indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have rape fantasies, and these fantasies are frequent or preferred in 9% to 17% of women. Considering that many people are ashamed to report rape fantasies, these stats are most likely lowball figures.
If Hutson’s inference is correct, more than half of women likely have fantasies of being raped, and in perhaps up to one in four women these are their preferred and most common fantasies. Other studies are referenced in the article as well, if you care to research them yourself.
Although not a scientific study, I also found the following quote particularly revealing:
In one survey of romance novels (which tend to be written by and for women), the lead female character was raped in 54%.
If anything caters to tawdry female fantasies, it is romance novels (as well as soaps and dramas). 54% is no coincidence here. Furthermore, Whiskey remarked in one of the comments on my “Mad Men = Female Porn” post that “Mad Men had a couple of rape scenes where the bad boyfriends rape the women the they love.”
So, it being established that rape fantasies are a core component of female sexuality, Hutson goes on to explore why this might be the case. He offers up a number of potential explanations, including, among others, sexual blame avoidance, “male rape culture”, and biological predisposition to surrender. While I reject outright the “male rape culture” explanation (I will explain why shortly), sexual blame avoidance makes some sense, and probably is more relevant to American culture in particular, but I think the biological predisposition to surrender is the most likely explanation.
Suggesting that some “male rape culture” that makes rape normative exists in America is ridiculous on its face. For one thing, rape was originally treated as a crime against men first, and society second. In Deuteronomy, for example, the rapist is punished mainly for his transgression against the husband if the woman is married, and against the father if she is not. This concept continued to be reflected in criminal law until quite recently, when the state took on the role of the father, and then finally the husband as well. In fact, the spate of Mexican rapes of young women and girls that accompanied mass immigration over the last fifteen years or so was in part the result of a cultural misunderstanding. In the old Catholic tradition, which still has considerable influence in Mexico, rape was not considered much worse than fornication (which was a big no-no), and could in many cases be expiated by marrying the victim — this is why the victims of these rapes were almost exclusively unmarried young women; raping a married woman is seen as a far more heinous crime in that particular culture. Rather than a cultivating a “rape culture,” what we see men doing in societies around the world is criminalizing and discouraging rape because it is contrary to their interests.
As the authority of the state has increased over all Americans, we still see the same principle of rape being a crime against more than simply the female victim, but the offense against the husband or father is no longer relevant — instead it is the jealous state (paternal authority) that is now the aggrieved party. So morally speaking (from the feminist point of view), there is little difference between now and then, but practically speaking the scope of prosecution has widened considerably. Given these circumstances, any suggestion that there is a “culture of rape” in America is absolutely ridiculous.
Because rape is a very primal threat to men, acting on a deep-seated insecurity about his relationship to the women in his life, it is likely that the taboo against acknowledging this aspect of female sexuality is rooted in men’s desire to have a more comfortable and less stressful view of the women upon which they have invested so much of their emotional well-being. It is little different from the husband who sees his wife as a “good girl,” only to find out the truth the hard way when she commits some sexual indiscretion.
Despite the comfort that this taboo may bring to some, I would argue that it is a dangerous thing to deny the truth of human nature — even sexuality. Not only does this blind men and keep them from gaining a deeper understanding of the women around them, it also leads women to feel confused and ashamed about feelings and desires that they apparently have little control over. It is possible that the high rate of false rape accusations and obsession over the subject in America is in fact a result of confused, repressed feelings, which lead some mentally disordered women to project their fantasies onto innocent men.
We have to accept that there are dark, uncomfortable aspects to both male and female sexuality, and that neither gender in particular is any more guilty than the other. In fact, neither is guilty at all; we are sexual beings equipped with emotions and desires that, although often mysterious, serve a greater purpose than our rational minds can comprehend.
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{ 160 comments… read them below or add one }
oh crap, I actually know what book that is.
Seriously, though, this jumped out at me:
and in perhaps up to one in four women these are their preferred and most common fantasies.
One in four. Gee, where have I heard that percentage before? Hmm…
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Does this mean I don’t have to feel bad about my own rape fantasies now? =)
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I’ve always wondered about this and was curious as to the whole idea of rape fantasies.
In alot of Japanese anime, especially hentai, there are many instances of rape of a character. I recently watched a yaoi anime that had scenes that one would consider rape, but the characters were lovers lol.
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Excuse the horrible grammar in my above comment. I sometimes think faster than I can type
Goes to show you how important proofreading is lol.
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I don’t think anything you fantasize about should be held against you…only your acts.
and fantasies ARE fantasies, not necessarily something you would EVER want to actually experience…makes me think of sex on the beach…the IDEA is wonderful, the air, the water, the primal tide pulling…but in reality, sand gets places it really really shouldn’t and there are sharp shells that cut your back, and dang seagulls flying around…it doesn’t live up to the whole fantasy thing…
fantasies are easily controllable…even in a rape fantasy a woman can draw lines…who rapes her, how rough or gentle he is, what acts he performs…it may have the hallmarks of rape but it isn’t really rape.
simply put, having a rape fantasy does not mean a woman wants to get raped for real.
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Wow, thank god for anonymous commenting. Yes, women do have rape fantasies. Yes, I had a long-term relationship with one who did (who also happened to be a militant feminist and a grad student.) Yes, our consensual “rape” scenes got pretty wild. But that was a few years ago. Nowdays, if I met a woman who asked me for such things I’d make her sign a contract first. And I Highly recommend every man, should you tread in these waters, read up on legalities and get documented consent. The various bdsm websites have good advice on this matter.
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Jess- of course, a fantasy does not mean reality. But partners can pursue this with caution, respect, and documented consent.
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if I were a man and had the SLIGHTEST doubt about the woman I was with, there is no way I would do that…written or otherwise, she could just claim you forced her to sign it.
yes, fantasies are fun to play out IF you are in a relationship you feel safe in and if things don’t go too far.
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Pursue-resist, persist-resist, persist-resist, persist-surrender.
Women like that in a romance novel because it speaks to their innate desire to be mastered or dominated. Another way of putting it is she was “swept off her feet”. In mainstream romance novels–especially those written after the 80s–it is usually clear from the narrative that the woman finally surrenders, even if only in her own mind, to her own desires. I see it in submission guidelines all the time–and in warnings of “ambiguous consent” on some books–it must be clear to the reader that the heroine wants to have sex with the hero before penetration occurs. But, tellingly, there is no admonition that it be clear to the hero.
Also tellingly, there’s a whole subgenre within erotica and erotic romance called non-con. And the premise of these stories is usually that she does not consent before penetration–perhaps there are many times she does not consent–but that over time she realizes that this is what she wants in her deepest heart. To be mastered. In those cases, consent comes closer to the end of the novel–it may be in the final sex scene, where she’s come to discover this truth about herself and her own desires.
Also tellingly, BDSM is gaining a huge following among vanilla readers. RL practitioners rail against many authors who live a vanilla lifestyle disregarding the very strict tenets of “safe, sane and consensual”. They feel these books not only give BDSM a bad name, but that people who get ideas from these books could act on them and regret it. The problem is, the readers who adore the books that disregard those tenets–books where Doms are mind-readers who “just know” what their subs need, and where things are not negotiated beforehand–are typically vanilla women. They are not drawn to these BDSM stories because they are safe, sane and consensual, but because they are just the opposite. Because it’s dressed up like a kink, they feel more comfortable with indulging those desires–it’s not reallynon-con–it’s BDSM.
The idea of non-con or dubious-con sex is appealing to them because it not only speaks to their reptilian brains, but because it removes the onus of consent, and therefore accountability, completely from the female. She is free to enjoy these stories because she can indulge those aspects of her sexuality in ways that are not real life rape.
That is not to say that women who have rape fantasies want to be raped IRL, but there is something in the act that calls to them.
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thank you Kis…great post.
I think women want to feel they are with someone strong enough to protect them. I know that is not PC but I think it is the truth. Women need men that they can lean on. (and men need women they can lean on but in a different way.)
right or wrong, in their hearts women want strong men. I think it is one of the reasons women are so unhappy these days, we teach women that they shouldn’t want what biology tells them they need.
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I suspect the driving force being rape fantasy is vanity. It is the love of being desired, of being wanted so much that a man loses his reason in order to have possession of the rape fantasist.
Of course, I doubt the fantasist ever dreams of being raped by a skinny little nerd type. The figure she imagines will be a giant amongst men, a man desired by all other women. You only need to read Ayn Rand to get one woman’s account of the ideal rape.
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Female sexual power – to be so desirable that the man literally cannot help himself.
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Bingo.
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Guys,
On the topic of ‘rape fantasy’…Of course I have not done a study and I have limited experience but lots of guys tell me this is so with their wives. My ex and I played out a few of these that were fun for both of us. Yes, in my experience women do want some ‘big strong alpha’ to come along and sweep them off their feet and then passionately ravage them against their ‘initial resistance’…….surprise, surprise….any man who does not know this must have been brought up by a woman.
Personally I am in the Marc Rodov camp. A woman says ‘yes’ at the alter. Sure, she might have a headache or have had a bad day, but months on end of rejection is not acceptable in a marriage any more than it is acceptable for a man to refuse to feed his wife when he is the sole breadwinner. If the wife has an ‘entitlement’ to food provided by her husband a husband has an ‘entitlement’ to intimacy provided by his wife. I used to use the ‘food’ analogy a lot with my ex. I used to explain that lovemaking, sex and intimacy nurture the relationship and desire and willingness to sacrifice in a man like food nurtures his body. Most women seem to think that men are robots and will keep going without the slightest in support or appreciation while continuously demanding to be given all sorts of acholades for the most insignificant of contributions.
Doing ‘playful rape’ now with western women I would consider right out unless you videotaped the whole discussion and agreement and scene. I would disagree a signed contract is enough. She can say the magic words ‘I changed my mind’ and your signed contract is worthless. Your arse is going to jail. Gee ladies, isn’t it great we need to videotape our most intimate moments with you to protect ourselves from false rape allegations! Winning strategy! How many of those tapes are going to make it onto the internet later on after you piss the guy off? Plenty. I just bought a little flip and tripod to make videos when I go to court. But it is so small and so unobtrusive I’d suggest it’s perfect to record having sex. No woman would know what it was. Just have it up on a shelf and put a little cover over the red recording light.
One idea I have kicked around but not made up my mind on is that husbands might be well advised to videotape sex with their wives and then if the wife commits kidnapping, perjury, fraud etc meet her with the threat of publishing sex with her on the web. It’s a tough call because it breaks trust but hey, women are breaking that trust in their droves. I’d be interested to hear other mens comments on that one. If women don’t like that idea? Maybe they should rethink their support for women stealing children from their fathers. Which is more brutal. Putting a womans fat arse on the internet or stealing a mans children?
Women bitch and moan and make all this noice about the ‘violation’ of rape. Bah humbug. Sex is an entirely natural act and claiming your husband of many years ‘raped’ you is bogus unless you have the bruises to prove it. On the other hand consider how abusive it is to remove a man from his own home and children at gunpoint. Which is the more abusive act? I say taking a mans children from him at gunpoint is ffffaaaaaarrrrrrr more abusive than a wife going through and act she had done a few hundred times before with the man she sleeps with every day…call me crazy.
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“Gee ladies, isn’t it great we need to videotape our most intimate moments with you to protect ourselves from false rape allegations!”
It’s interesting that the one thing we would probably most vehemently oppose if governments directly proposed it – namely that our private lives be subjected to the scrutiny of recording cameras – is something that we are all encouraging each other to do with gusto. Record that sex! Install cameras all over your house!
Orwell would be killing himself laughing.
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Oh, certainly. I mean, it’s one of the things I’ve come to understand about myself recently (I’m bisexual and sort of a gender-switch, but it’s been a long, confusing road to assigning meaning to my needs and desires throughout my life).
When I’m feeling in control of my life, the bills are paid, the house is clean, the kids are happy, I’ve just sold another book, etc–that’s when I’m more attracted to women. I’m comfortable in the pants, and I want to wear them, and I want that complementary feminine to balance out my masculine. I also want to be dominant in bed.
When my life is kind of veering out of control and I can’t stay on top of things, that’s when I’m more attracted to men. I want to let go of these damn pants that are making me unhappy and find someone to lean on, to protect me, to shelter me, and to dominate me sexually.
Those qualities–a longing to be dominated, a yielding nature, a desire to give up control and be sheltered, those are innately feminine qualities. It’s possible that all humans have these qualities to some extent, but they certainly make up much, much more of the female’s psyche than they do the male’s.
And I think it’s why some women drawn to BDSM sex games are control-freak women–over-achievers, those who in daily life have a lot on their plate, or who have to be tough and hard-ass in their jobs. It often comes as a complete shock to them that they secretly yearn to be mastered. The extreme forms of submission they find in D/s sex counter the more “masculine” lives they live day to day. It’s like letting off steam they never realized was building up inside them.
It’s not just that, but that there are fewer of those men around. Part of leaning on a man is having him in the providor role. Especially these days. I mean, she doesn’t need him to fend off raiders or wild animals, or to hunt, or to even do hard, physical work around the hut anymore. So what’s left? Picking fights with encroaching males in bars, and earning money–because money is security in a very real sense.
As women displace men in jobs that would make women able to lean on them in that way, well, there are not only fewer of those men around–the standards as far as what constitutes “lean-on-ability” are going up at the same time. How many women making $60k a year would feel like they can “lean on” a husband who earns less (perhaps significantly less) than she does?
That’s not to say that I think women should earn less for the same work, or be barred from those jobs, or all be SAHMs. It’s just that the reality of our needs and the reality of the situation in our society are now profoundly at odds. And this puts enormous strain on people–men and women–who are trying to find meaningful relationships.
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I think it is an indirect testament to the overwhelming power of some men’s sex drive that they will go through all this just for a little bit of bad sex.
We are clearly in the middle of an unplanned breeding experiment selecting for pure raw aggression and willingness to throw all caution to the winds.
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@piercedhead
“Of course, I doubt the fantasist ever dreams of being raped by a skinny little nerd type. The figure she imagines will be a giant amongst men, a man desired by all other women. ”
Strangely enough, not true. He just needs to be ‘vicious’ – for want of a better word.
@All
This common desire in women to be ‘abused’ leads men to be aggressive, sexually speaking, because they have LEARNED that this is what turns women on.
Then, along comes Ms Victim, who has a different point of view (or claims, later on, to have a different point of view) and the man is in trouble – in trouble for trying to turn her on.
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My perspective, as a sort of foreigner to the USA…
My fantasies have always been pretty simple and basic. When the internet came along and I came here, I saw and read about things I would’ve never imagined because I never knew they existed.
I think technology and the media go a long way in putting ideas into peoples heads.
People left on their own are pretty simple and simply wouldn’t think up all this kinky stuff.
It’s like what comes first – the chicken or the egg?
Does life imitate art or does art imitate life?
The West seems hellbent on perverted peoples’ minds via technology. That’s where people get all these crazy ideas.
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But, there really aren’t, kis. There are probably about the same percentage of the human race willing and able to do that as there always have been, if they had been able to find a mate willing to do her part.
What has happened to women since feminism is that they have become so terrified that we (men) are going to “oppress” them that they have to fight us compulsively on everything. If we say “up” then she has to say “down.” If we say “left” then she has to say “right.” I’ve seen it happen thousands of times. It is purely reflexive and reactionary – if the woman actually thought about it, she might realize that the man was right in the first place.
Women today simply wear out their men by fighting them, and by the time that the man actually does over-power her, he is so exhausted he hasn’t got anything left to conquer the world with.
Look at these discussions here. No one in their right mind would really accuse the men here of “supporting rape”, but dozens of hours and thousands of words have been wasted in what looks a lot like argument.
How much could all of us have gotten done if we had been able to spend our time doing other things than trying to get this cultural train-wreck that all of us are in the middle of back under control?
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@DADT
Women’s rape fantasies were fairly ubiquitous well before the arrival of the recent technological innovations.
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Welmer – I’m interested in reading more about the Mexican rapes that you write about. Can you or someone else here point me to some articles, etc.?
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@piercedhead
“I suspect the driving force being rape fantasy is vanity. It is the love of being desired, of being wanted so much that a man loses his reason in order to have possession of the rape fantasist.”
Yes indeed, but it is only part of the equation – though a big part, I imagine.
However, many women are masochists, and they enjoy being hurt. Pain = Pleasure (Same goes for many men.)
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piercedhead November 1, 2009 at 3:28 pm
“Orwell would be killing himself laughing.”
Correct…if the guvment said ‘you have to tape all sexual interactions so we can tell if it was consentual’ women would scream blue murder. Most women do not like their photo taken fully clothed. LOL!! But these guys are smart and women are dumb as rocks. So instead they tell women they can get vengence against a man by false rape allegations so that the one and only safety net the man has is videoing his sexual encounters. It is so obvious it’s laughable.
All that ACTUALLY has to happen is for women to be held accountable for their actions. You know, like perjury still being a crime when committed by a woman….But no…women are not up to being responsible….Women are children, nasty, vindictive, overly empowered children in the west.
So the guvment is manipulating them to produce exactly the result the guvment wants and women are too stupid to see this manipulation. If women just obeyed common law we could kick the guvment out of our families. They have no right to be in our family. The only way they get that right is to be invited in by our faithless wives for the promise of ‘babies and money’.
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@DADT
“Women’s rape fantasies were fairly ubiquitous well before the arrival of the recent technological innovations.”
……………
novels are also technology.
people left on their own just don’t think up kinky stuff.
we are pretty basic.
also, any statistic that talks about “women” must specify what KIND of women. which country? which type of cultural background, etc.
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Exhibitionist fantasies fulfill the same desire–to have a man drooling and insane with desire. But exhibitionist fantasies do not remove the context of accountability from the woman or fulfill the deep-seated longing to surrender the way rape fantasies do. In fact, they place female accountability and agency front and center.
Femdomme fantasies fulfill that desire, also–the ultimate power over a man, who is driven to the point of helplessness by his desires. But the power is expressed in a way that is completely contrary to natural female sexuality, which is why it’s an enormously uncommon fantasy and barely a blip in the market for female-targeted erotica and erotic romance.
Rape fantasies are so popular because they touch on many aspects of female sexual desire all in one tidy package.
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Jess November 1, 2009 at 2:36 pm
“I think women want to feel they are with someone strong enough to protect them.”
Gents…#1 women don’t think, they can’t, they just spout opinions they pulled out of their arse or got from another woman. So.don’t listen or give credence to blatant lies like this just because a woman says it. ok?
Women want to be with someone strong enough to labour for 20 years to pay for her fat arse and her children while also being compliant enough to be dominated and controlled through sex. A ‘dumb ox’ if you will. When women say they want to ‘change’ a man they mean break his spirit and dominate him……only problem is…if she manages to dominate and control him she loses all respect for him and goes looking for the alpha who will dominate her as she needs to be to be happy…….western women are crap. They are all mixed up via the programming. Look at how mixed up Kis says she is. She’s so mixed up she doesn’t know whether she likes men or women. And she thinks she got that mixed up all by herself…LOL!
Eastern women, on the other hand, openly expect to be dominated and controlled and ‘made to behave’. They will even tell you so to your face. I had my fav#1 tell me this weekend when she snapped at me and I told her I didn’t like it “You must stomp on me and put me in my place. You must make me behave.” It really came as quite a shock to me as I have not heard a western woman say that. We went on to have quite a long coversation about how she felt that the man must dominate and control the woman because “women have no idea what we want, we must be told what we can have and to be happy with that”. Pretty much the same as children….really……
Mind you, this is only the second time she has ‘snapped’ at me in 18 months…..married men are lucky to make it through the day without many such incidents. I could get 10 or 15 such incidents a day for such terrible behaviour as “putting the plate in the dishwasher all wrong”. Feminists actually tell women to “Criticise, criticise, criticise. Wear him down. Never let anything be good enough. No matter what he does he did it wrong,” Yeah, way to run a marriage.
When I was a kid, every evening at the dining table, us kids were expected to thank mum for making dinner and thank dad for working to provide our dinner. We got a nice dinner, we must say ‘thank you’ for it. My dad thanked mum for making the dinner and mum thanked dad for his days work and providing for the family and they would give each other a kiss when they did this. Do we see this any more? Nope. Check it out now. Women almost never say thank you for anything. I was noticing here in the UK. You hold a door open for a guy he will say ‘thanks’ 99 times in a hundred. You hold a door for a woman they say ‘thanks’ about 1 in 10 now. Try this for yourself and see how infrequently women say thank you in the west.
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@DADT
“novels are also technology.
people left on their own just don’t think up kinky stuff.
we are pretty basic.
also, any statistic that talks about “women†must specify what KIND of women. which country? which type of cultural background, etc.”
Yes, you are correct.
But I’m not so sure that rape is ‘kinky’ – in the sense of being way out of line with some kind of primordial desires.
I’m only guessing though.
When we were living in grass huts, I imagine that rape was reasonably commonplace but, perhaps, it would not have been seen as something amazingly cruel.
Like Germaine Greer, I reckon that most women would rather be raped than lose their little fingers.
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I doubt anybody has gathered statistics on these, but I used to document the incidents for work. Their prevalence confused me until I did some research into Latin culture. My conclusion is that Mexicans are not by nature any more rapacious than anyone else — it is simply cultural dissonance that leads to this perception.
I’m pretty sure I’d just be wasting time elsewhere, lol.
Not so. At age ten I was playing with my Barbies in ways that would have made my mom’s head explode had she caught me. I played with them in sexual D/s ways–often with Ken involved on the sidelines–elaborate scenarios of domination and submission, punishment and sexual reward (mostly kissing, hey, I was ten) between “mean Barbie” and “nice Barbie”, with Ken sometimes ratting out nice Barbie and advising methods of punishment. I’ve come to realize, having consent/accountability removed from nice Barbie allowed her to explore bisexual feelings and attractions without being “bad”. I mean, she was just being a “good girl” and doing what she was told. Having Ken involved placed those more questionable interactions one extra step outside the context of female consent.
And I had never, at that point, been exposed to sexual domination/submission in any overt way (I suppose I’d seen the odd “punishing kiss” in movies), same-sex relationships (didn’t know what lesbians were, let alone that they existed), or the dynamics of sexual consent. I did know that my feelings were confusing and scary and made me feel out of control–and that they would be seen as…odd or worrying by others–and they dynamics of my play were ways of letting me explore those feelings within a safe context.
Same way rape fantasies do for many women. Those fantasies existed long before romance novels came along.
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kis November 1, 2009 at 4:15 pm
“I’m pretty sure I’d just be wasting time elsewhere, lol.”
Yes, you would. That is because you are a woman and women waste time. Especially when they are being paid by someone and supposed to be working. Meanwhile, men invent civilisation.
kis November 1, 2009 at 3:33 pm
“As women displace men in jobs that would make women able to lean on them in that way, well, there are not only fewer of those men around…the standards as far as what constitutes “lean-on-ability” are going up at the same time.”
Gents, if you read Kis note you will see her tell you exactly what women are looking for. Someone else to be responsible for them. Someone to pay for them. She calls it ‘lean on ability’ to make it look nice but what she means is “who is going to pay for me and be responsible for my actions”. She says that when things are not going well she tends to be attracted to men. Why? She is a child and needs to be told what to do.
One of the really interesting things, and it was covered in a Chapins Inferno is that women who are ‘gay’ report being attracted to women who are, surprise, surprise masculine in nature. The women who are out there in the work force, earning the big $$, slaying the dragon and doing the business. Chapins inferno on it is hysterical….how these women ‘loved their new partner to pick up the bill at the restaurant’ etc. When I watched it I was screaming with laughter.
And women think that the social engineers are not manipulating them so they have fewer babies…LOL! The birth rate has halved across the entire world just about in the last 40 years. Yep, all these billions of women independently came to the conclusion to have fewer babies.
Just look how many men have been denied good educations so that they will make ‘unattractive’ husbands…Once you can see it it is so blindingly obvious. Women almost NEVER marry down so by oppressing men by refusing them the education they are entitled to and filling them up with ritalin as kids and keeping them down in blue collar jobs those men become ‘unattractive’. And all societies that alienated their young men fall into chaos. Young men with no future and no qualms tend to rob people because it’s easier than working for a living. Anyone who has been to south africa in the last 10 years can see with their own eyes how dangerous it is to have massive numbers of young men with no hope for the future. It was the place I felt most unsafe.
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zed November 1, 2009 at 3:35 pm
“I think it is an indirect testament to the overwhelming power of some men’s sex drive that they will go through all this just for a little bit of bad sex.”
Dude, you are ON FIRE tonight!!! Excellent comment.
I used to leap through hoops to try and get my wife to have sex with me. (She refused lovemaking since ’96). Now? ALL the sex I get is wwwaaaaayyyyyyy better than she ever did. Especially russian chicks. Their mommas must teach them or they must have schools or something. And I am getting so much I just can’t be bothered trying to find new ones. I’ve been in the UK on an off for a good portion of a year and have not bothered to try and pick up one woman because what I get back in Germany is so good the memory of it can keep me going for a month easy. Younger men are very driven for sex…but as you get older and you are not so desperate it becomes much easier to satisfy your desires.
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harry November 1, 2009 at 4:11 pm
“Like Germaine Greer, I reckon that most women would rather be raped than lose their little fingers.”
I think most women would rather be ‘raped’ than miss an episode of Oprah.
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In one result I read something like 70% of women who were classified as ‘rape victims’ were still dating their ‘rapist’. Yeah..sounds like a really bad problem to me….
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You’re pretty funny, GM. I mostly just skim your posts, because a man bemoaning what horrible, selfish sluts western women are, while at the same time avenging himself on the “quality” eastern ones in ways that are all too likely to turn them into western ones (using for sex, then discarding when bored), seems like kind of a hypocrite to me.
But maybe that’s just me.
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I want to know how women would feel being confronted with the fact that they perpetuate rape culture more than men do.
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They would dissimulate, as usual.
I know where the desire for rape fantasies come from and I acknowledge their right to do it, but I think the chicks and dudes that are into that kindof thing are all sick fucks that need their heads examined.
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“it also leads women to feel confused and ashamed about feelings and desires that they apparently have little control over.”
Thankfully so.
Seriously, when did the west abandon shame as a powerful tool to maintain societal coherence?
People need to feel ashamed of more things. Enough with this bullshit about letting it all out and living “at peace with yourself.” You aren’t a bunch of shit-chucking apes anymore, shape up or get out.
Don’t tell people you barely know about your sexual exploits and desires. Stop dressing like children or whores. Learn some etiquette. Don’t make every other word that comes out of your mouth a swearword. Don’t act on every impulse. In short, have a sense of shame.
The west would be a much more bearable place if people were still bound by shame instead of the new mantra of limitless self-expression.
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The deepest taboo is a man’s rape fantasy in this climate.
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What does that mean?
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An observation I once made privately to Bhetti, who’s devoured a whole lot of romance novels, which on reflection she readily agreed with, is that rape fantasies generally involve a man who is for some social/culture rules reason forbidden or supposedly undesirable, but is personally highly sexually arousing to her. She might be a virgin, or almost and saving it for marriage; he might be married or she might be; he might be the wrong religion or ethnicity; he might be from the wrong side of the social and economic tracks, but a hard charger and fast riser (frequent American theme particularly when there was more prejudice against even high achieving poor origin boys than there is now); or he might be a heartless and sometimes cruel and amoral bastard she knows she should and indeed does disapprove of, but an exciting and hard charging one nonetheless; and so on. In other words girls have rape fantasies for men they secretly are very attracted to, but know or have been told they shouldn’t be. Their id or hindbrain wants him; their superego says it’s wrong; the ego is overwhelmed by him, but ends up being ecstatic. At least in the moment. Maybe not with the consequences.
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Bhetti
Speaking of the devil … I mean my angel …
Yes. I know exactly what you mean.
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I bet men have their equivalent brutally suppressed. Certainly it’s not as openly discussed.
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Well, there is certainly no objective way to verify whether you are correct or not. I certainly have not seen any literature aimed at men which had any sort of rape element to it. I think men’s fantasies tend more toward the conquering hero type – and being mobbed by adoring women.
I’ll bet that your bet is projection.
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zed
Nancy Friday put together a book called Men in Love, which was a collection of men’s sexual fantasies. It was intended as a companion to My Secret Garden. There was a section on men’s rape fantasies, but I don’t remember what percentage of responders counted those as their top fantasies. Interesting book, in any case.
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Thanks, 21guns. My original point still stands – there may be one book out there, written by a woman, that deals with the topic, but I’ve never seen anything in the mainstream. It seems to me that things like Mutiny on the Bounty, Moby Dick, Superman, Batman, and even Conan appeal to men far more. I wonder if Friday searched out those men’s fantasies because she thought they would appeal to women. I’ve never thought of her or heard her referred to as any kind of “men’s author”.
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Friday’s findings, while intensely fascinating, ought to be viewed with some skepticism.
I understand that basically what she did with “My Secret Garden” was put an ad in a New York newspaper asking for people to send her their sexual fantasies… so, already, you are skewering the results towards the more sexually liberated of people who will take the time to write down their sexual desires on paper, post it, and share it with millions of anonymous people. Most people don’t do that… at least I don’t.
“My Secret Garden” was a worthwhile read – but, one ought to keep in mind that the respondents might possibly be far more sexualized than the “average” population… don’t know if her male version was done the same way, but if it was, I would say that the type of men who would put their fantasies to paper and then post it because of a personal’s advertisement in a newspaper, are well, already way more comfortable about their sexuality than most men that I meet.
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I remember Friday saying something that BDSM, or being “forced” to perform sex acts, and acts of exhibitionism, were the top two fantasies that women sent in to her… and there were lots of good, and WILDLY kinky fantasies sent in… don’t remember which one was top – but, it does seem to fit. Lol, I think it was after reading that book that I started notching up my adventurousness with women in the sack.
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Scenes of unambiguous rape doesn’t fire my imagination at all, but borderline situations, where’s she’s won over in the end, and how, do.
If the woman never loves it, I never like it. But the timing of when she does is another matter.
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fedrz–
Brings to mind some of the problems with Kinsey’s sampling methods, which similarly skewed his results to what you’re hypothesizing here, it’s fairly well accepted now.
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Doug1,
Something interesting about Kinsey, despite all his other shortcomings, is how society seems to ignore the results of his second book about female sexuality.
His first book, about male sexuality, and male masturbation, homosexual fantasy etc. etc. – all the low down dirty nitty gritty on those dirty, heathen men, was enthusiastically embraced by society at large, especially the women. It is what made Kinsey famous: his “findings” on male sexuality.
His second book, about female sexuality, nearly destroyed him. Society did not have much tolerance for hearing about wives desires for extramarital affairs, needing to masturbate to relieve sexual frustration even during marriage, desire for lesbianism etc… it was all HOTLY attacked. Just as today, women demand men (and society) view them as angels, even when the devil is moistening their panties.
The societal reaction to his findings on female sexuality might prove to be the most valuable, scientifically accurate data which that joker compiled.
It has been thus since Eve approached Adam with the forbidden fruit.
(Anyone ever notice that women are trying to demand “men’s curse” but no man in his right mind is trying to demand “women’s curse?” Things that make you go “hmmm.”)
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It appears to me that women have both curses now, which might explain why men are happier than women. I know that I certainly enjoy living with no curses. What will interesting is whether the future holds artificial wombs, which will sort of relieve women of one part of their curse, but will just save the wear and tear on their bodies that having kids has on them. They will still have to pay for child care, unless they can force the government and businesses to pay for it.
I’m not sure how much longer the cult of the inherently moral woman can be maintained. Guys like Roissy certainly seem to hold no illusions about females. Maybe when old fools like Joe Biden and the boomers pass into oblivion, younger men will be able to force a more realistic view of women.
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“As the authority of the state has increased over all Americans, we still see the same principle of rape being a crime against more than simply the female victim, but the offense against the husband or father is no longer relevant — instead it is the jealous state (paternal authority) that is now the aggrieved party.”
You can’t possibly believe this. This is sheer lunacy. When a women is raped, she is the aggrieved party, in addition to the state. The same as if someone is robbed or murdered. I can’t believe I have to even say this. What kind of website is this??
And your confusion about why exactly women have rape fantasies just makes it clear that you don’t know much about women. Yes, I do believe it is in part due to a biological predisposition to surrender that you are more likely to find in women than men. But the fantasy largely has to do with control. The man is physically stronger and overwhelming her in the fantasy, but he is doing so because he is so smitten with her that he can no longer resist—meaning that it is she, paradoxically, who is in control.
I would think that this would be obvious to anyone who ever had any type of sexual liaison with the opposite sex.
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Dragnet, I was writing about the origins of the law. Your objection is entirely irrelevant to that.
Violent Acres nails it:
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/51/how-feminism-ruined-my-sex-life/
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I think “control” is the wrong word here, but I think the concept is right. It is about sexual power, and if she has the sexual power to make him lose control of himself then she is sexually powerful indeed. However, it keep sounding like the very aspect of losing control of him and his actions, and being swept away, is where the thrill comes from.
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Good read.
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@dragnet
” The man is physically stronger and overwhelming her in the fantasy, but he is doing so because he is so smitten with her that he can no longer resist—meaning that it is she, paradoxically, who is in control.
I would think that this would be obvious to anyone who ever had any type of sexual liaison with the opposite sex.”
That’s just not true.
It might be the case for women whom you have come across, but it is certainly not the case for some whom I know.
Besides which, what makes you think that you know the source and the rationale behind ALL rape fantasies that women might have?
Women are not all the same, you know.
As for the notion that the men in their rape fantasies are largely ‘smitten’ with them, one again, this is not the case. Many of these fantasies involve women seeing themselves as ‘dirt’ – for want of a better word.
Some time ago, it was found that many women dominant in their workplaces fantasised often about being treated as if they were worthless – the argument (possibly having some merit) being that they were seeking some kind of counterpoint – something different.
Many young women in nightclubs often just want a good pounding in reality – presumably, therefore, occurring much more often in the fantasies of women.
This notion that women usually want men to ‘lose control’ because they are so smitten with them is wrong.
Women like men to be IN CONTROL, not to lose control. Indeed, the latter is usually a turn off, I would suggest.
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zed:
This comes from saying ‘brutally suppressed’, doesn’t it, which gives the idea that men don’t know that they have the fantasy or that it appeals to them.
Clarify what nature of literature you believe is aimed at men.
One notable current fantasy writer with many depictions of rape (and other expressions of male sexuality — dark and not), Terry Goodkind, who is an Objectivist:
Forgive me. This is the Disney version of men’s fantasies. I will point you to the Disney version of women’s fantasies if you so wish.
Projection solely is an unfair accusation. I’m basing it on reports of pornographical content and its nature, the actions of men as reported by history, recalling this post at roosh’s blog, a troll called Biting Beaver and the delicate/rationalising/defensive way in which men around me have talked about it around me in contrast to women.
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This notion that women usually want men to ‘lose control’
because they are so smitten with them is wrong.
Women like men to be IN CONTROL, not to lose control. Indeed,
the latter is usually a turn off, I would suggest.
Dragnet is saying that the man’s sexual dominance of the female, his control of her, is derived from her irresistible sexuality that leads him to act that way. Hence the paradox of her really being in control because this is what she really wants.
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That’s not to say women don’t apologise for their rape fantasies, develop pathologies around them, suppress them or hide them, they do. For many reasons, including the misinterpretation or generalisation about what ‘being raped’ means — especially true of saying it to a man who does act with judgement more often than not — a belief that it makes them sick or it would be viewed as so and also feminist guilt and conflict with ‘you’re only wanting to submit because of the patriarchy!!! Fight it!’
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That’s one type of female rape fantasy only. In others and I think the more prevalent sort she most definitely loses control to her passions and to the dominant male.
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@Marlon
“Dragnet is saying that the man’s sexual dominance of the female, his control of her, is derived from her irresistible sexuality that leads him to act that way. Hence the paradox of her really being in control because this is what she really wants.”
Yes, I understand that. But it simply is not the case that this is the essence of ALL the rape fantasies that women have.
Many women have fantasies wherein they are simply raped by brutes – brutes who would rape anything.
I am sure that many women do fantasise about CERTAIN men being so erotically charged by them that they lose control and rape them. My point, however, is not that this does not occur, but that Dragnet attacks anyone who believes that rape fantasies might have other sources. To quote: “I would think that this would be obvious to anyone who ever had any type of sexual liaison with the opposite sex.”
Well, it’s not obvious to me!
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dragnet
I would say that what I said just above to you is obvious to anyone who’s ever had much notably male dominant flavored sex.
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@Bhetti
“That’s not to say women don’t apologise for their rape fantasies, develop pathologies around them, suppress them or hide them, they do.”
One reason is that women often do not want to give the impression that they particularly enjoy sex because, to do this, would mean that they lose bargaining power, and/or appear to be sluttish.
Another reason is that it often takes a while for them to sexualise their partners properly. This can be difficult because they tend not to take control (for various reasons) and so the wrong pathways can be chosen.
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Consummated marriage. History 101.
—– > http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html
History tells us about our evolution, wich tells us about our biology.
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“The Fountainhead” by Ayn Rand, the precurser to “Atlas Shrugged”, had quite the rape scene! She fell in love with him too, if I recall correctly.
Ah… Mz Rand, where are you when the culture is demanding a female President?
Oh yes, that’s right! You stated that a woman directing a man is ludicrous!
(AH has the link, if you doubt the everlasting wisdom of that statement).
Or something like that.
Grrr… what a cougar, that woman!
She make me horny even after death!
Well, intellectually horny, anyways.
“Smarts” aren’t all they are cracked up to be in woman-land.
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One of the more famous TV rape scenes was “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” where (Mad Men’s Marti Noxon) had “bad boyfriend” Spike rape Buffy, and Buffy blame herself, and love him even more. Indeed her male friend Xander and her sister Dawn were shown to be “petty and small minded” for objecting to Buffy’s continuing relationship with Spike, culminating in off-screen sex.
These fantasies are destructive for women. They speak to the ugliest part of woman’s erotic fantasies — to be dominated cruelly by a totally dominant man. A man who if he exists in the real world is likely to go by the name of Pol Pot, or Josef Stalin, or Abimael Guzman, or Musab Al-Zarqawi. Men who are borderline serial killers and psychopaths, with enough charisma to inspire mass killers on their behalf.
Much of the social collapse of the West can be laid squarely on the shift in women’s sexual selection from get-along, cooperative, “beta” type guys who may not be very dynamic or thrilling, but keep things going. Guys like Charles Durning, or Don Adams, or Ed McMahon (certified WWII heroes whose exploits would stun all — Adams was at Guadalcanal, Durning survived D-Day and Malmedy and the Bulge, and McMahon a Marine fighter pilot in WWII AND Korea!) Indeed the entertainment industry as a whole depended on guys like that who seldom had the center spotlight but played valuable support roles.
None of these guys were very “sexy” nor did they ever figure in women’s rape fantasies of powerful, “bad boyfriends” who they loved but abused them. Nevertheless when things were down, the West DEPENDED on them in their darkest hour. Which did not just happen — society was built that way.
Now, very destructive fantasies take hold of women, teaching them wrong things about men and choices they may make. Who would storm Normandy beaches for the women who read these things? Who would fight the Japanese for “Buffy’s rape fantasies” in Guadalcanal? Who would strap themselves into a fragile fighting machine and race off into the upper atmosphere to kill or be killed for some girl whose darkest desire is to be the forced handmaiden of Joe Stalin meets Charles Atlas?
Not only that, who will do the day in and out stuff that must be done for a chance at a woman who has consumed all that for most of her life?
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Yup. The woman was her husband or father’s property, and raping her would have been the equivalent of taking a bat to his car. It damaged her value–especially if she was a virgin.
One might assume women also suppress or hide their rape fantasies because they don’t want people to believe they’d like to be raped. The whole point of a rape fantasy is to experience it within a safe context. She chooses the rapist, whether he (or she) is attractive or ugly, his motives, his facial expression and language, the time, the place, the sequence of events, the ways he touches her, and she can adjust all these things as needed to achieve arousal.
Yes, there are many types of female rape fantasies, and they’re popular because they touch on multiple aspects of female sexuality. They work on many levels, if you will.
Women’s fantasies are mostly receptive–they’re almost always about a woman *receiving* pleasure. Male fantasies are more often about giving pleasure. Doug1 says it well:
I would assume that a man fantasizing about rape of the sort that the woman does not enjoy (because even if she’s acting like she hates it, it’s his fantasy and he can imagine her loving it “on the inside” even while she gives every outward indication that she doesn’t), or does not *come* to enjoy at some point during the rape, would be pathological in some way.
Rape of the pathological sort–violent stranger rape, for instance–is about taking something. A sexually healthy man’s rape fantasy would be more about giving something.
I’ve read a fair bit of (really bad online) erotica written by men, and even when the things the women do in those stories are dirty or degrading, the women in them almost invariably enjoy their own degradation.
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To be fair, the husband was also the property of the wife under Christian doctrine, so his murder or physical incapacitation would have given her grounds to seek compensation. This was seen as just at the time, and it worked after a fashion — perhaps better than contemporary family law in many ways.
I should also point out that rape undermined the concept of patrimony, which was very much a part of the foundation of society in days past.
You speak as if no woman ever had this type of fantasy until the very first romance novel was written. The reason the fantasy exists in the novels is that it *already* existed in women.
Further:
Castigating women for fantasies that are so common as to be innate to them is…kind of silly.
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This view that women were just the chattels of men is simply more feminist-inspired hokum that is based on nothing but the usual discounting of the context in which such a notion was held.
Fifty years ago, for example, children were, more or less, seen as ‘chattels’ here in the west, in the sense that they were seen as ‘belonging’ to their parents; but it does not follow from this that their parents were prone to treat them like disposable objects. On the contrary, most parents adore their children and will do anything for them.
And the fact that the parents had ‘command’ over their children made a great deal of sense, given that, firstly, the parents knew better than the children what was best for them and, secondly, that the people most likely to best look after the children were the parents!
Well, from what I can see, the same kind of considerations applied when it came to men and women. The women were always more vulnerable – especially in those more dark and more dangerous days – and it was their men who were charged with looking after them.
Imagine a child walking down the street a thousand years ago. What is to stop some stranger picking up the child and saying, “Hmm. I think I’ll have this one.”
After all, if the child does not ‘belong’ to anyone then why not scoop it up for your own purposes?
Well, I imagine that the same sort of thing applied to women. You couldn’t just pick them up off the street and haul them off somewhere because they belonged to someone else!
Even nowadays unwed women will wear rings on their wedding fingers if they want to send out the message, “Leave me alone – I’ve got someone watching my back.”
And so my own view is that the notion that women were the possessions of their men was quite a good one given the circumstances in which most people had to live in those days.
Putting this another way: If you had lived 500 years ago, would you rather have been ‘possessed’ by the man to whom you were married, or would you rather have been at the mercy of all men – like the child walking down the road.
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Well, I think that since it’s just a damn village, I ought to be able to take any one of these snot nosed, communally owned feral brats, and smack their bottoms till the wailing fills the streets!
After all, who can complain? Their parents? After all, if people don’t belong to anyone, then who do your children “belong” to? (A mean SOB like me, that’s who! Stop your whining… SMACK! And stop whining because you’re getting SMACKED, you communally owned brat! AAARGH!)
In 1979, the US Supreme Court upheld the notion that parent’s interests of their children superceded that of all others… upholding Common-Law, which was declared by Blackstone in 1765 that the “law has recognized that natural bonds of affection lead parents to act in the best interests of their children.”
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0442_0584_ZS.html
This decision was upheld in the year 2000, in the US Supreme Court Case Troxel vs. Granville. It was affirmed under the principle that “fit parents act in the best interests of their children.” The Troxel case rejected the argument that a judge should supercede a “fit parent’s judgement” about the “best interests of the child.” http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-138.ZS.html
Fuckin’ eh right!
If your children don’t “belong” to you, then who, EXACTLY, do they belong to?
Cause if they belong to the village, I just might gander to smack their feral asses, whether YOU like it or not… my village, my communal property!
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Anyone got a spare wooden spoon?
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Yes women have rape fantasies. It is quite common.
I think when it comes to the fantasy of rape it speaks to female narcissism. IMO, it fits quite well with a narcissistic female personality that she would imagine her sexual allure would be so strong and compelling as to render a man unable to control himself sexually. Thus “taking” her, in the sense of the fantasy, is not so much a desire to be forced as it is the ultimate affirmation of her desirability.
Many women say they like spontaneous sex. IMO, many of them are attracted to quick, spontaneous sex not because there is anything so erotic about spontaneity, but for them there is something intensely erotic about being the subject of a man’s immediate sexual demand.
Women have and always will obtain the lions share of their self esteem and identity from their sexual desirability. The more intensely they are desired, the better about themselves they feel.
Rape, at least in the sense of the fantasy, is the ultimate boost to their self esteem.
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A spoon! My Kingdom for a spoon!
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-”Well, there is certainly no objective way to verify whether you are correct or not. I certainly have not seen any literature aimed at men which had any sort of rape element to it. I think men’s fantasies tend more toward the conquering hero type – and being mobbed by adoring women.
I’ll bet that your bet is projection.”
Eh, there’s a lot of “rape porn” around. All of it horribly fake of course, but I’d say that’s the male equivalent. Of course you won’t find any literature like that, because men like watching porn, not reading it.
That’s why you won’t find a male version of “book about some greasy Italian 30-something life-guard with a pony-tail who has a fetish for middle-aged chubby housewives from Nebraska.”
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Yes and yes. Know what’s an instant turn-off for me? A man who goes into sex like it’s some damn mission, determined to bring me off multiple times–even if he sprains his tongue. Walking to a hotel room one night, one man informed me that he’d make me come five times before he even got down to business. And then he was left wondering why my enthusiasm took a nosedive.
This is why realistic m/f BDSM erotica doesn’t do it for me. Those stories are all about the pleasure of the submissive, and they keep score with an orgasm tally. Often, the Dom doesn’t even have one–he’s totally focused on pleasing the sub. No thanks. Number one, I want a man to actually, you know, *want* me. Number two, talk about performance pressure! Like if I don’t manage to get off, for whatever reason, I’m not giving him what he wants. Now I am a bad lover! I know guys can sometimes feel pressure to last longer–but honestly, you shouldn’t worry so much. You know what lasting an hour or more says to a woman? “You don’t turn me on.”
What I (and I think very many women–and granted, not every time, but frequently) want is to be pinned down and taken. Use me roughly, even callously. Don’t worry about whether I get off, just slake your lust as if you can’t get enough of me. Devour me. Ravish me. If you finish before I do, hell, it only takes about thirty seconds for us to rectify that once things have calmed down.
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Funny, I have some mixed feelings about your post.
“Yes and yes. Know what’s an instant turn-off for me? A man who goes into sex like it’s some damn mission, determined to bring me off multiple times–even if he sprains his tongue. Walking to a hotel room one night, one man informed me that he’d make me come five times before he even got down to business. And then he was left wondering why my enthusiasm took a nosedive.”
My first reaction, at this stage of my life, is disdain for the fact that so many men and women seem to care about what turns a woman on or not in the first place.
What you post says to me is that you and the guy had the same idea but with differing views on how to go about it. Both your views have you as the center of attention and the onus on him to do things in a way that please you. And though I admit your way makes a little more sense to me, it still speaks to an imbalance that I think leads a lot of men to see the sex as “some damn mission.”
The whole trip that a lot of men don’t get is that they key with women is not to satisfy their sexual needs, but to satisfy their narcissism. And as long as sex is based on the emotional pathology of women, it will result in men not knowing what to do and a lot of women not feeling satisfied.
That describes a hell of a lot of sex in this culture. And it is a really good reason for men to consider that indifference to the sexual needs of women may actually be best for both sexes.
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Around where?
So were are talking about a phenomenon of the past 20-30 years. I’m not going to buy any broad global generalizations about “men” based on a very recent phenomenon and a tiny percentage of men. There have always been niche and fetish markets, but they have always been defined by being the aberration, not the norm. I keep hearing noises about how porn is going “mainstream”, but at least where I live the outlets still seem confined to dirty bookstores on the margins of populated areas.
Literature, on the other hand, gives us thousands of years of sorted ideas with the ones with the most staying power rising to the top. If we are talking about what happens in men’s imaginations, then I think those works which have stirred their imaginations through the ages are a much better indicator of what “men” respond to.
I think your statement would be more accurate if it read “illiterate men like watching porn, not reading it.”
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Interesting. I didn’t realize that Disney wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey, I thought it was some guy named Homer. (not Simpson)
Thanks anyway. I pretty much swim in a sea of women’s fantasies, and have grown quite weary of dealing with them.
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During the gauntlet of the mating years it would be pretty much expected that both men and women would be focussed on what it takes for men to get women into bed. And the culture has just spent the past 60 years with a very large cohort in those years, so I don’t think it is surprising that matters of sex and mating have been so prominant in cultural concerns.
I think your key phrase is “stage of life.” Most people don’t grasp the fact that life goes on, things change, they will grow older, and things which seem very urgent today will not always seem that urgent, or even important.
It seems that the futility of chasing women’s sexual satisfaction as a sort of life quest has to be discovered on an individual basis. One by one, men come to the realization that the best part of the experience of beating their heads against a stone wall is how good it feels when they stop.
The current view of men as warm blooded vibrators and women as warm blooded sex dolls doesn’t seem to be satisfying either sex, which is not suprising because narcissism is inherently unsatisfying. Hopefully some lucky few will stumble on the understanding which gets them out of the downward spiral and gives them the chance to pursue things in their lives which are satisfying.
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-”Around where?”
Go to xvideos and search for the tags “rough” or “abuse.”
It is by no means the norm, but a sizable market exists.
To clear up any confusion, when I say “male equivalent” I of course mean that the guy is still the dominant one. Of course very few men (mostly those we refer to as “screwed up in the head”) have fantasies of being dominated or raped.
I think we have different definitions of “porn.” I would not consider classic “guy gets girl after exerting effort and displaying fortitude of character” tales porn per se. I would seriously be surprised if those “got off” guys the same way that tales of some dark, tall and handsome mediterranean gigolo raping a middle aged housewife in his beach bungalow gets off women.
Those stories don’t hold any sexual value themselves, they are more about the general message (ie if a man holds true to his values and perseveres in the face of adversity, irrespective of his position in society, he will be rewarded). I don’t think any of those stories carry a message like “and then he screwed the princess proper solid. Time to get out the lotion and tissues, guys” so they are very different from all those female rape fantasy books, which carry no message at all.
-”I think your key phrase is “stage of life.†Most people don’t grasp the fact that life goes on, things change, they will grow older, and things which seem very urgent today will not always seem that urgent, or even important.”
I’m going to have to put the blame squarely at the feet of baby boomers and those who were raised by them. In their youth, they short-sightedly rejected all the wisdom of old age, instead upholding the values of youth (personal freedom and a lack of responsibility rather than authority, hierarchy and social coherence).
Their problem is that they haven’t gotten over themselves yet, they haven’t been able to age gracefully. They cannot admit that they were wrong, that there might be things more relevant than the immediate gratification of urges, that there might be something bigger than the individual.
And they never will. They are too lazy and stupid to face the truth. They will forever be stuck in the mental state of teenagers and impart this stunted view of the world on their children.
Hence the excessive focus on sex, status and all the other causes of teenage anxiety. Hence the cougar phenomenon and all that “60 is the new 20″ bullshit.
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Being a boomer I will take that hit and own that up to a point. And that point is the one I tried to make in my Baby Bomb post – that the boomers did not actually reject the wisdom of old age, but picked the wrong bit of wisdom from among what was being fed to us. As Arthur put it, when we came to a fork in the road we almost always took the wrong one.
Guys like Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper who made Easy Rider were not boomers – they were our older brothers. James Dean, the ultimate god of Nihilism, died before more than half of the boomers had even been born. Abbie Hoffman, the ultimate hippie, was born 10 years before the first boomer. When violence erupted at the 1968 Democratic convention, the youngest boomer was 4 years old. Very few of the boomers were hippies, we just easily fell into the ruts they had cut.
I remember being absolutely stunned when I was at a college party and the father of one of my friends said “Hey, do you want to smoke some of my dope?” Then he ran to the car and returned with bag and bong in hand. This was a middle-aged man, in a very respectable occupation, at the time that a lot of boomers hadn’t even sprouted pubic hair yet.
So, blaming the boomers only works for people who aren’t making exactly the same mistakes. And it only works for those people who are willing to really look at what the mistakes were and listen to someone standing at the fork in the road and saying “Hey, the boomers took that fork, and where it led was fucked up. I strongly suggest you take the other one.”
Any yeah, there is some cruel pleasure in making life hell for boomer women and driving home to them the fact that 50 really is not the new 30 – and that it is the same old saggy-ass 50 it has always been, even after they have had so many face lifts that their navel is now a dimple on their chin.
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This article actually reminds me of the sex scene in the book “The Fountainhead”. That scene was always kind of a non sequitur to me. However, maybe it says something fundamental about sex and individualism. I’m not going to take the leap on what that is, however, for anyone who read the book, maybe this is something to think about.
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Excellent commentary, JB. I really have no idea how “porn” is defined these days. I’m aware that there are tons of still pictures and videos on the net, both amateur and professional, but the stuff I’ve seen leak across to ordinary surfing habits seems to be run-of-the-mill female exhibitionism and ordinary sexual activities like BJs and intercourse. The most “male dominant” thing I’ve heard of is bukkake.
The part I’ve bolded above fits my experience about male oriented entertainment in general, the focus is less on the specifics of the act of sex itself, and more on being the kind of man that women desire – the kind of man that women want to have do all these “nasty” things to them.
That kind of men used to be the ones termed “heroes”, and I really do think that heroic fantasy is much more common among men than any other kind.
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See: rape scene in The Fountainhead for sure. The entire book is a masterpiece but this topic is definitely covered, or uncovered and it was HOT.
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Indeed, Paul.
There was that article a few months ago in the NYT that basically confirmed this, saying that women are aroused primarily in a narcissistic fashion — that is, the fact that someone they want to desire them actually does desire them is what arouses them. It’s a narcissistic loop beginning and ending with their own desirability. The rape fantasy plays directly into that — because in the fantasy the man is so overcome with desire that he can’t control himself –> this means, to her, that she is very desirable, which is what turns women on. The article pointed out that the stereotype that men are narcissists and women are relational is exactly backwards when it comes to sex –> when it comes to sex, men are relational in being aroused by the object of their desire, whereas women are aroused by indications confirming their own desirability. Women are the narcissistic sex, but they’ve managed to turn the dialogue around about male sexuality by calling it “objectifying”, when in fact the proper way to describe it is, in contrast to women, relational rather than narcissistic.
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Seems rather self-defeating to me – ask for what you don’t want, punish the men who give you what you do want.
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“I really have no idea how “porn†is defined these days.”
I think the official supreme court definition is “you’ll know it when you see it.”
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Consider the “women’s emotional pornography industrial complex”. It’s a huge and well established mass media industry aimed directly at women which sets up unrealistic emotional expectations about relationships. It’s in books (romances), Hollywood (romantic comedies), magazines (Cosmo), TV (Lifetime), and of course, the Net.
Women are exposed to emotional pornography almost constantly. It guides their emotional expectations and their overall life scripts. Hell, such emotional pornography is even in TV commercials for food products. Consider the yogurt advertisement featuring the two young women eating their yogurt and waxing how good it makes them feel (“this is half-off at the shoe store good”) … as if every woman eating this particular brand of yogurt would have such an emotionally blissful response.
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Occam’s razor: a woman’s fantasy about being raped is in being raped i.e. being attracted to being completely physically dominated by a male. That is the unchangeable component by its very nature and the most simple biological drive; it’s an enaction of the fundamental difference between the genders in relation to the physical plane.
For different women, different factors could play a greater component:
the abdication of responsibility or guilt from being sexual herself,
the narcissism of being strongly sexually desired (I’m having trouble with this one; it’s very easy seeing that her being sexually desired is important as part of the fantasy but on the other hand… it is very difficult seeing rape as some sort of teenage loss of control or that as attractive in a male fantasy figure i.e. him being strongly sexually attracted can only play part of the story, one would think.),
having the burden of her freedom of will taken away or at least a temporary illusion of it,
the punishment, retaliation or humiliation element (i.e. some part of women don’t actually feel they should ‘get away’ with oversexualised behaviour or that they should provoke a man without him responding thus getting off on the ‘retaliation’ fantasy).
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@Novaseeker et all
Yes indeed, when it comes to Narcissism and to what turns women on – but when it comes to their fantasies about rape this is not mostly the case, in my view.
There is a great deal of confusion in this thread concerning women’s fantasies relating to their desires to be extremely sexually attractive, and their common fantasies about rape.
The latter do not necessarily involve the former.
Think, for example, about the common phenomenon whereby Mr Nice Guy keeps losing out to Mr Couldn’t Care Less.
Why does Mr Couldn’t Care Less keep winning if the real sexual desires of women are mostly based on narcissism?
This doesn’t make sense unless you sneakily (and without much justification) step back and invoke some Freudian double-dealing.
In my view, most women who fantasise about rape are very definitely NOT fantasising about men who want them so desperately that they cannot control themselves. These women are *mostly* fantasising about being used and abused by somebody who is not particularly concerned about them.
This is why Mr Couldn’t Care Less wins, whereas Mr Nice Guy who is completely smitten gets nowhere.
When it comes to women’s rape fantasies, forget about the romantic books wherein Mr Gorgeous sweeps women off their feet and has his wicked way with them, think, instead, about Oprah Winfrey and the soaps that women like to watch.
The former accounts are not really accounts of rape. They are mostly to do with being “swept off one’s feet” – which is not the same as rape.
Rape means being forced into having sex and not wanting sex to take place.
With Mr Gorgeous, women do want sex; so it is not really rape when they finally succumb.
Think also about similar ‘forced’ situations wherein intercourse does not take place – perhaps the fantasy – often found in older women – of having to go to the teacher’s room to get a caning.
The fantasy here seems mostly based on the notion that the woman is being forced to undergo some kind of (sexual) punishment from a man (or woman) who cares not at all about her pain or discomfort.
Furthermore, this fantasy is often heightened if the teacher is decidedly undesirable.
Once again, therefore, these women are not fantasising about someone who is smitten with them.
Also, I think you will find that most women – certainly attractive ones – have a great deal of contempt for those men who seem to worship their bodies, because they have spent a lifetime being irritated and irked by the constant attention that their bodies keep getting from such men. And the idea of being raped by such a man (who worships their body) is not a turn-on at all. It is something that they have grown tired with.
Of course, the idea that someone is so wildly interested in your body that they can never stop tampering with it in some way, is a great turn-on for both men and women.
But, in my view, this is not the essence of most women’s rape fantasies. It might be a part of the fantasy – but it is not the essence of it.
The essence is more like, “I just have to ENDURE whatever he wants to do to me.”
In some cases, ‘he’ is an attractive figure. In many cases he is not – apart from when he is doing whatever he is doing.
Think also about women’s fantasies to do with bondage; being tied up etc. These things are to do with being generally controlled, submitting to someone else, and ENDURING things that are uncomfortable – or painful – simply because one has no choice.
In other words, if anything, the essence of all these fantasies – including rape – is the desire to experience a complete lack of power and choice, submitting to someone else’s will, and suffering somehow in the process.
And the fact that the ‘abuser’ might be salivating over your body at the very same time is merely an added bonus!
LOL!
Finally, let me stress that I am not quibbling about the narcissistic element to the sexuality of women in general. My points above are only to do with the rape/bondage-type fantasies of women.
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I remember my Psychology 101 class from college.
The text-book listed the top four sexual fantasies of women and men.
Both were the same – except for one – women said, “forced intercourse” where men said, “forcing intercourse”.
It absolutely suprised me that women even had fantasies about being raped.
That surprise can be attributed to me growing up in this Miss-Information-Nation!
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I wonder if we are all using the word ‘rape’ with the same meaning. To me, Rape is by definition an undesired and forced sexual act. That all parties involved wanted it (whether in retrospect the liked it or not) means that it is not rape. I don’t think many women fantasize about being raped – because by my definition this isn’t possible. To be fucked really hard, sure. To be fucked really hard by a man who is stronger than she is and whom she couldn’t physically resist if she wanted to, sure. But the fact that she is fantasizing about it means she wants it – means it’s just not Rape. It’s rough sex with her husband’s entire softball team. Last weekend.
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I have a few kind of rape fantasies.
1) the man I desire being overcome with desire and giving me violent sex that I enjoy, even though he’s only concerned with his own pleasure. This is the kind of sex I prefer IRL. It’s a frequent fantasy for me.
2) a man–could be anyone–or men using me brutally and viciously against my will, and forcing me (or a placeholder) to do humiliating things which the fantasy me does not enjoy, but the real me, watching, really does. It’s less frequent a fantasy, and usually appears more when my life is in chaos and I feel like a failure.
3) a man, usually someone I would find attractive, using me brutally in ways that make me uncomfortable or embarrassed, to which I initially object, but discover part of the way through that I am enjoying. This one comes up when things are really hectic in my life, but I’m still managing to keep on top of things.
4) I am the rapist, forcing another woman against her will in ways she comes to realize she really wants. I’m forcing her to face her true desires. This one shows up when I’m on top of the world.
5) I am the rapist, forcing another woman against her will. I humiliate and degrade her, hurt her, and I don’t care that she hates every minute of it. This one crops up when I’m frustrated at everything and everyone.
All these fantasies involve rape, but they all derive from different parts of my sexual psyche.
I don’t think you can pin rape fantasies on any one source. They call to many aspects of female sexuality, which is why they’re so common.
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You are an uncommonly frank woman, Kis.
kis
Sometimes You almost make me blush, woman !
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“I wonder if we are all using the word ‘rape’ with the same meaning. To me, Rape is by definition an undesired and forced sexual act. That all parties involved wanted it (whether in retrospect the liked it or not) means that it is not rape. I don’t think many women fantasize about being raped – because by my definition this isn’t possible. To be fucked really hard, sure. To be fucked really hard by a man who is stronger than she is and whom she couldn’t physically resist if she wanted to, sure. But the fact that she is fantasizing about it means she wants it – means it’s just not Rape. It’s rough sex with her husband’s entire softball team. Last weekend.”
Sure. It’s not real rape. It’s pretend rape.
But what if a girl puts herself in a position to be raped, where the rapist doesn’t realize she really wants to be raped, is that rape? Is it rape when one person is aware and wanting what is about to happen, but the other thinks it is real rape? Thats a trickier question, but one that hopefully will not come up in real life. I’ve never heard a story of a women going out of her way to put herself in the position of likely being raped because she was that hardcore kinky, but I’m sure its happened, just based on probability. Hell, people have sex with animals, I’m sure at some point some women went into a dark ally half naked and drunk and waited to be raped. If a rich person walks through the ghetto with the hopes hill get mugged, just for shits and giggles because he is bored and can afford it, is he still being mugged? I’d have to say yes to both questions. I practice a lil’ BDSM, and safe, sane, and consensual is a must. For the above examples, they are neither safe or sane, and only partly consensual.
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There is a school of legal thought that holds that victims are also often participants in crime. It’s called “victim precipitation theory”. In China, for certain types of petty fights or domestic disputes it is common for the police to extrajudicially punish both parties.
@ Harry
“Why does Mr Couldn’t Care Less keep winning if the real sexual desires of women are mostly based on narcissism?”
Just as with men there is some level of narcissistic gratification when the “conquest” is more difficult. IMO, to many women it would be even more of a narcissistic affirmation to be raped by a guy who is otherwise indifferent.
The guy who shows overt interest is frequently seen as weak and undesirable to be easily controlled and used. For women, being desired by the weka is less likely to satisfy narcissistic needs than the other way around. It is sort of like for men when they are desired by ugly women.
One scene stands out from my previous marriage that I think speaks volumes. My ex used to like very rough sex. I remember once taking her roughly from behind as she was cleaning a bathtub. As I entered her, she said aloud “You just have to have me!” Then she instantly had an orgasm.
I know it is anecdotal, but clear enough to me that this is pure narcissism at work.
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@ kis
Fascinating and honest post. I was most intrigued by how you correlated the particular fantasies to the current state, or state of mind, you are in.
I have spoken with many women who acknowledged fantasies of being humiliated and abused. I have often wondered if this was an unconscious desire to seek punishment for how they operated in real life.
I have met many women who could say, with a twinkle in their eye, “I’m a bad girl and should be spanked.”
And as I examined how they behaved out of the bedroom, I couldn’t agree with them more. Now if I am correct to assume that for some women being spanked is an unconscious desire for correction that manifests as a sexual desire, then I rhetorically wonder what might I infer from women having fantasies of being severely humiliated, even sadistically punished?
The funny (sort of) thing is that my general experience with women is that IRL most wont get any where near authentic accountability for their actions and behaviors. And of course men reinforce this.
Just wondering aloud here if that symbiotic connection that reinforces immaturity in women often finds its outlet in sexual fantasy.
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As I entered her, she said aloud “You just have to have me!†Then she instantly had an orgasm.
I know it is anecdotal, but clear enough to me that this is pure narcissism at work.
Or pure *infantilism*, alternately.
The feeling your wife expressed is not unlike what a baby feels when Mother returns after an anxiety provoking absence.
Most babies however, eventually learn to grow out of it and develop some form of ontological security.
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Paul Elam:
I have often wondered if this was an unconscious desire to seek punishment for how they operated in real life.
I have met many women who could say, with a twinkle in their eye, “I’m a bad girl and should be spanked.â€
And as I examined how they behaved out of the bedroom, I couldn’t agree with them more. Now if I am correct to assume that for some women being spanked is an unconscious desire for correction that manifests as a sexual desire, then I rhetorically wonder what might I infer from women having fantasies of being severely humiliated, even sadistically punished?
They get to have their cake and eat it too.
Women have the luxury to act immaturely, emotionally, short-sightedly, often employing rationalization and evasion in order to live with themselves, act petty, vindictively, narcissistically and opportunistically, and *then* — after having gorged themselves on the fruits born out of such self-indulgence — are allowed the luxury of experiencing sexually sadomasochistic pleasure at the hands of the men in their lives. In other words, the “punishment” is not really a punishment. Anyone who is acquainted with the BDSM community will know that very often the woman being “tortured” and “humiliated” secretely believes in her heart of hearts that she is the one in control of the abuser. This is part of the satisfaction.
The funny (sort of) thing is that my general experience with women is that IRL most wont get any where near authentic accountability for their actions and behaviors. And of course men reinforce this.
This is the problem. They get a free pass to remain overgrown children. So much has been said here and elsewhere about the dysgenic effects of unrestrained female sexuality: the feminism and the hapless suckers who bought into it to only end up alone with 12 cats, the fatherless homes, the license to have thrilling affairs with dangerous sociopathic outlaws (and frequenty getting killed for it), the loss of incentive for beta males to be honorable productive members of society, a social zeitgeist that values flash and fame over substance and progress, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum…
The possibility of the human race to finally and for once overcome itself in order to evolve to something higher, something noble, something which might be, oh I don’t know, just a tad better than this cyclical self-destruction of Rome-like civilizations, is denied and thwarted at every turn by one root cause: women and their need for their gina tingles. And the men who indulge them.
We as a race are mired in the muck, forevermore, without end.
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I get those ones when I’m feeling like a failure. I didn’t used to when I was single and only had myself to take care of, but now that I have three dependent children (and when I had a husband I could not motivate to fulfill his role), those feelings of failure are magnified. I don’t know that they have anything to do with punishment, because they don’t employ very much as far as spanking or whipping or anything.
In short, when I feel worthless, I get off on fantasies of being used as if I’m worthless. But I never had that type of fantasy to any degree until after I found myself living the life feminists would tell me is the end-all and be-all: independent providor for my kids, playing both mother and father to them. Even my two spectacular flunk-outs from university didn’t inspire that, because they were mostly my choice, and only I had to deal with the consequences of me choosing failure over success.
I find myself wondering if rape fantasies are more prevalent now than before feminism, or if the form they take has changed from predominently narcissistic to more of these humiliation, degrading, belittling types of fantasies as more women feel the pressure to be everything and inevitably can’t manage it. We’ve been set up to fail, and most of us are doing just that.
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This puts a real interesting slant on an experience I had about 25 years ago. At the time it appeared to be somewhere else on the “continuum of victimhood”, but I may have totally misinterpreted what was really going on.
It was the one and only time I ever made the mistake of “oppressing” a woman into living expense-free on my generousity and allowed a woman to move in with me. It was a disaster from the get-go, for among other reasons the fact that I found out that she had herpes only the day before she was supposed to have all her stuff moved from Wisconsin. That was back in the days when I was still hampered by my indoctrination in 1950s values and that whole “a man’s word is his bond” thing. I still live by that, but it is almost impossible to get that word out of me now.
The whole thing started in September when she haughtily announced that she wasn’t going to attend my family’s Christmas celebration because “she was Jewish and Jews don’t celebrate Christmas.” I chuckled because I was well on to her game of trying to find something important to me and withhold it in order to get me to make concessions and beg her for it. Guys who know Game know this was obviously a “shit test”, but that terminology didn’t exist back then. However, the method of dealing with them had been around since the beginning of time, and it was the old “mind over matter” stand – if you don’t mind, then it don’t matter.
So, I said “Well, you apparently don’t celebrate family, either. OK.” Well, the fact that I had busted her Game became instantly obvious when she went into shrieking hysterics about that proving I didn’t care. It was fortunate for me that she was so stupid, because if her Game had been better it would have been harder to handle. But, having just said “ok” to something that she had just said she wanted, and I wanted as well because she had already been a poisonous ugly presence in the middle of 2 family Chrismas celebrations (which are SACRED in my family) I was actually quite happy she wouldn’t be around to try to ruin another one for everyone.
But, she was still determined to get her Game to succeed, so she played the martyr and was determined to cook dinner for everyone because she had “promised” my sister. I kept telling her that if she wasn’t going to go and take part in the spirit of the event, then she wasn’t going to have any part of it – we would take care of dinner and get along quite fine without her.
About the first of December the chronic tension between us began to escalate to outright hostility. As December wore on, the battle over whether she was going to cook dinner and force me to take it kept raging and getting worse – culminating in a 7 hour screaming match in my kitchen on Christmas Eve. At one point, after facing hours of endearments like “jerk” and “asshole” I had finally become so enraged that I punched one of the cabinet doors and cracked it.
At this point she got right up in my face and started screaming at me “Don’t hit that, hit me, HIT ME!!!”
Instantly my rage went cold because my first thought was that this whole business had been planned and orchestrated to enrage me to the point where I would hit her and she could call the police, have me dragged off to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas Day in jail, get a restraining order to keep me out of my own house, and start legal proceedings to take it away from me. It was like being in a scene from The Excorcist when the demon’s head pops up.
I stepped back, just looked at her for a moment, and said “You have to move out.” Right after the holidays I found her an apartment, got all the utilities established in her name, paid all the deposits, engaged a moving company, and told her “You are leaving on Saturday.”
Now, after hearing the perspectives here, maybe she really was just unconsciously trying to push me to dominate her and put her in her place. The problem would have been that if I had done that, I would maybe not have been able to get rid of her the way I did. As it was, instead of having to perpetually battle a poisonous presence in my life, I was able to purge it fairly quickly and painlessly. Right after the moving van left, I installed the new locks I had ready, and in the matter of a few hours the obnoxious ordeal of living with her came to an end.
If she hadn’t been such a truly toxic and fucked up person, I might have gotten trapped. However, she was such a bitch that fairly quickly I was able to respond to her “do you love me?” shit test with “Love you?!?! Hell, I don’t even LIKE you.”
And, yes, I know that “not all women are ‘like that’” Doesn’t matter – I wasn’t dealing with “not all women”, I was having to deal with her.
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But, he didn’t have a role, kis. He was as irrelevant to you as a bicycle is to a fish. He had that on the authority of hearing it from thousands of women, not all of them feminists. He probably starting hearing that about the time he was 16 – before or at the lastest shortly after you were born. You were sabotaged before you got out of training panties.
Feminism ands feminists have really hosed you from every direction, kis. It screwed up your marriage, your family, and now it is screwing up your sex life.
Ever think about doing something about that to fight back?
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Well, I have started posting some fairly provocative comments on romance writing and review blogs–especially since there’s a debate going on right now about BDSM romances that disregard the safe, sane, consensual tenet. I openly blamed feminists for women’s rape fantasies invading BDSM. We’ll see how many sparks fly over that one.
There’s also a guy I know who belongs to a writers’ forum. He’s the most miserable, pussy-whipped guy I have ever seen in my life. His wife walks all over him. I think I’ll PM him a link to Dave from Hawaii’s blog…
As to doing anything more concrete, I’m still thinking about how to go about it. I don’t know there’s much I can do to help myself, but I’m already talking to my kids about a lot of aspects of gender relations I probably knew deep down but understand a lot better after hanging here. Figure I’ll teach my oldest son some game–with the admonition that he is NOT to use it for eeeeevil.
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Speaking as a very kinky heterosexual male, I have fantasies of being sexually dominated. I also experience ecstasy from pain. Therefore, I totally understand female rape fantasies, especially since women are more hard-wired to desire dominance than I’ll ever be. (kinkiness aside)
But the key is that it has to be with consent. I would very much not want to be followed home by a bunch of crazy women who tie me up, whip me, stick a dildo up my butt, or whatever without my consent. And I would assume the same goes with women, conversely.
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@Paul Elam
“Just as with men there is some level of narcissistic gratification when the “conquest†is more difficult.”
Oh yes, I agree. This might often be true when it comes to rape fantasies – because it is much more satisfying to be desired by someone who is normally indifferent and ‘unobtainable’ than by someone who is always readily available.
However, in some (perhaps, most) women’s rape fantasies, it is precisely NOT the woman’s narcissism that requires pandering to, it is her desire to be viewed as worthless.
She does not WANT to be looked up to. She wants the man to look DOWN upon her. She wants to see herself as the second-class citizen – when compared to the man.
This is not narcissism.
This is pretty much the opposite.
And so, for example, when she falls for Mr Couldn’t Care Less but rejects Mr Nice Guy, Yes, it could be narcissism – because she wants to attract the unobtainable – but, far more likely, is that she feels more comfortable (sexually) with someone who Couldn’t Care Less.
A narcissist wants to be looked up to by those around her. She wants men falling at her feet. A woman who chooses Mr Couldn’t Care Less is, patently, not doing this.
She also might choose Bad Boys rather than Good Boys.
Thus, it is very difficult to keep arguing that such women mostly have a narcissistic personality – unless one uses strange Freudian logic.
Think also of men who tend to choose women who treat them like dirt.
Are these men narcissists? – or the opposite?
Once again, IMHO, when it comes to women who enjoy rape fantasies, bondage etc, it does not make much sense to believe that they are, mostly, endeavouring to satisfy a narcissistic personality.
Finally, I don’t actually think that a narcissist would want to spend much time in the company of someone who views them with contempt or indifference. A narcissist wants adulation!
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I think the most common female narcissim comes from a sense of moral superiority to men. Something taught to them by society and culture since a very early age. If they feel they are morally superior, they may come to believe nasty, energetic sex is taboo or dirty for cultural reasons, and rape/bondage fantasies free them from the confines of this false morality, allowing them to enjoy something they believe is immoral in a guilt free way. Ironically, they take something that is not immoral, and is rather natural and healthy, and turn it into something that is deviant, simply to not be held accountable for their actions. They can’t admit to themselves of wanting to be a slut, so by fantasizing about having no choice in the matter, they retain their supposed moral superiority. Just brainstorming. I think any reasons are probably varied and due to complex socio-sexual contradictions being worked out, and most likely fairly unique to the particular individual. I do think you can point to a general theme however, one that incorporates a state of submissivness more natural for women then men, something that probably evolved to protect them from the brutal realities of the past, when life was cheap and danger lurked everywhere. Being submissive can save your life. It would be an evolved trait even for males, but especially for the physically weaker sex. Keep in mind that males fall into hierarchy structures without much protest. It is natural for us to understand the value of a leadership pyramid. No matter how Alpha you are, you generally accept that you have to work your way up from the bottom.
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Harry:
A narcissist wants to be looked up to by those around her.
A narcissist wants to be looket AT. Period.
The direction or valence is contingent on other factors.
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Think also of men who tend to choose women who treat them like dirt.
Are these men narcissists?
I think those are called “husbands”
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“Harry:
A narcissist wants to be looked up to by those around her.
A narcissist wants to be looket AT. Period.
The direction or valence is contingent on other factors.”
Good point. In many bondage scenerios, the female “victim” is the absolute center of attention. She is the extreme locus of action, thought, and feeling. She dominates the experience to the point that the, often masked, perpetrator is just a prop, a sex toy, an instrument of sexual force that acts upon, around, and at, the gravitational center of a sexual reality.
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@ Zed
An unfortunate and common story. I was rather surprised to see you say “And, yes, I know that “not all women are ‘like that’†Doesn’t matter – I wasn’t dealing with “not all womenâ€, I was having to deal with her.”
Personally, I still have to monitor myself against statements like this (and no, I am implying that you should. It is just that your posts always provoke me to think).
To a greater or lesser degree it can certainly be argued that the general population of women have these traits. By that I mean the manipulation and histrionics.
I know in the real of your work with the pen you have undoubtedly heard a thousand times how “not all women are like that.” What I have taken to saying in response is “No, not all women are like that. Just all the ones I have ever met and all the ones any man I know has ever met.”
There is more truth in that statement than if I made any attempt to qualify it. And the truth is though I have met a wide variety of women, many of who were excellent human beings and some quite brilliant, I have never known one personally, even on a platonic level, that did not reveal herself in some way to operate with childlike self indulgence and the expectation that satisfying what she “feels” is supposed the be the benchmark for both people in the relationship.
I am living with a woman now, a very dear person to me that I used to be involved with romantically. We make pretty good room mates, but even on that level I have to, from time to time, shut the bullshit down. I have to send the little girl in her the clear message that she “isn’t running shit,” and she gets it, with remarkably good nature, but the insight is only transient. So the lesson has to be repeated.
She just does not seem capable of being a grown woman on her own volition.
I think it is quite fair to say that this describes enough women in this culture that it is quite fair to generalize without any qualification needed.
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@ Harry
“She does not WANT to be looked up to. She wants the man to look DOWN upon her. She wants to see herself as the second-class citizen – when compared to the man.”
“This is not narcissism.”
“This is pretty much the opposite.”
Perhaps, amigo, but I think this assumes her reaction to being the object of a rape fantasy is to view herself as being a second class person. I am not buying that one….yet.
That might be the reaction to actually being raped. But I think for most of these women that the fulfillment of the rape fantasy at the hands of a known and accepted lover, or withing the confines of her fantasy world, simply leave her horny and feeling like the center of attention.
Being humiliated and enjoying it/feeling turned on by it is not the same things as actually being humiliated.
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Oh, and by the way for Novaseeker, et al
I ran this thread past my roomie/ex. When she got to the point of the rape fantasy being tied to being desired and not to being forced, she looked up and smiled.
“That’s it,” she said. Another anecdote for what it’s worth.
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It’s part of my enjoyment of playing with words. If we know that “not-all women” are “like that”, then the obvious question becomes, then what are these “not-all” women actually like? It seems that we have short women, tall women, fat women, skinny women, and now the ubiquitous “not-all-women.” I’m anxiously awaiting the release of “Attack of the 50 ft Not-All Woman!!!”
I toss in throwaways like that when I get otherwise bored.
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Slightly off-topic, but not really.
These recent discussions about rape invariably have led to the watery definition of the word “rape”. This is a recurring theme on this topic, and it is actually an excellent opportunity for men to return a subversive “counter-punch” right to the big witch’s snoz… that being, feminism has “new-speaked” the living shit out of the word rape to suit their own purposes, and there is absolutely no reason why men, and MRA’s in particular, ought not to New-speak the living shit back out of the word, to suit our own particular viewpoint.
This is the way, or an easy way, to battle back – as I described here, in a comment on Novaseeker’s article about Cultural Marxism:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/16/the-menace-of-cultural-marxism/#comment-3427
When we start discussing how the watered down definition of rape has expanded its meaning and yaddah yaddah yaddah… if we realize that this “play on language” was done on purpose, to suit and agenda, then we can look at “the mechanism of language” and how it affects human thought… the purpose of Newspeak.
So, a counter attack would be, whenever the “rape definition discussion” thing comes up, to begin to add our own definitions to the word “rape.”
When the Newspeakers wanted to attack the notion of “the family”, they sought to divide it into different definitions, and then slightly alter each of those definitions, until there is a kaleidescope of different definitions that can be used for the word. Thus, we now have conservatives defending “traditional family values” – this forces the thought into a person’s head, by default that there must be other kinds of family besides the traditional. If there wasn’t, then why would its defender need to label it in such a way? Otherwise they would just have said “family values” and got on with it… they have already lost part of the battle by defining themselves as “traditional.”
Well, that is pretty sneaky and dirty… because it screws with people’s minds, and subtly brainwashes them over time… and we should do it back!
“Traditional Rape”, if repeated enough times, can be used to inject the notion into the masses minds that there are, indeed, other kinds of rape than the traditional kind.
The “Rape Industry” has ever expanded the definition of the word “rape” to increase their own power and feather their own nests, and they cared not one jot about the innocent men they sacrificied in their quest for more power…
“Critical Theory” can indeed be also used as a foil to strike back, and keep watering down the definition of the word rape until the word simply becomes nothing more than a joke…
When people hear the word “rape”, and then automatically ask the next logical question that comes into their head: “What kind of rape was it?” And they go through the list: “Traditional Rape? Prison Rape? Date Rape? Excuse Rape? Regret Rape? Visual Rape? Financial Rape? Cyber Rape? Attention Rape?” When that becomes the default that enters into the average person’s head when they hear the word “rape”, then a mortal blow will have been delivered to the “Rape Industry.”
A way to do this, is simply to request a clear definition from a debating opponent as soon as the word “rape” appears in the argument.
“Just to be clear, what kind of rape are we discussing here ?”
If they reply “traditional rape”, then just keep saying “traditional rape” over and over again, except when you specifically refer to an alternate form of rape, which you similarly identify with an appropriate adjective.
It doesn’t matter if you actually win the argument… what matters is that the reader is subtly exposing their thoughts to the various kinds of definitions of rape, and starts to fracture it to bits in their minds. After time, it will become part of their regular thought pattern in regard to the subject.
This can be done for a host of different subjects, obviously.
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@All
Think about situations other then rape e.g. a woman who fantasises about having to give a blowjob to a man whenever he wants it.
Can this really be Narcissism at work?
It seems to me that if you stretch Narcissism this far then you can deem to be a narcissist anybody who gets a kick out of satisfying someone else sexually.
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Using their own weapons against them! Brilliant!! Remember what I have said a couple of times, Rob? We now have the chance to seize control of the dialectic and instead of the two choices we are given, add our own “none of the above!” We can put them in the middle of the dialectic – which would they rather have, their traditio-feminism, or a bunch of wacked-out radicals that they have to chase down and drag to the altar in handcuffs and leg irons?
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Why don’t you write an article on this in your signature style, and we’ll get it posted here. I think this is a brilliant suggestion!!!
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@fedrz
Rob? Rob?
Rob Fedders?
Scumbaaaaaaaaaaaaaag!
Where have you been for the past year?
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@zed
“Guys like Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper who made Easy Rider were not boomers – they were our older brothers. James Dean, the ultimate god of Nihilism, died before more than half of the boomers had even been born. Abbie Hoffman, the ultimate hippie, was born 10 years before the first boomer. When violence erupted at the 1968 Democratic convention, the youngest boomer was 4 years old. Very few of the boomers were hippies, we just easily fell into the ruts they had cut. ”
Actually, you are way off there. The term “Boomers” refers to the surge in births that occurred following World War II and lasted through the prosperous years of the 50s. Those born in the 60s, like myself, are actually Generation X. We are the first ones to be raised in dual income homes at best, or by single/divorced mothers and were key latch kids, mainly raised by TV.
The “Boomers” are very much responsible for the decline of Western Civilization, at least the decline that was accelerated in the late 20th century. The “Me” generation thought they knew better than all the millions of people that had gone before them. Their collective narcissism, smugness and gluttony was beyond anything the world had seen before.
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The generally accepted parameters of the generation designated “the baby boom” are those born between 1946 and 1964. The oldest boomer cast his/her first vote in 1967, the youngest in 1982.
We were not entirely dumped out of the wombs to raise ourselves, but it came close to that in some cases. TV was a built in babysitter for a lot of suburban moms “running for the shelter of her mother’s little helper.” They didn’t become the “me generation” all on their own.
It’s splitting a pretty fine hair to claim that someone born in 1964 is part of this mess, but someone born in 1965 wasn’t.
The point is that if you think the problem is solved by pointing fingers and laying blame, while doing exactly the same thing as the people you are pointing at and blaming, in 20 more years nothing will have changed and it will just be your turn in the box.
Remember “Greed is Good”? That certainly seemed to be a Gen X ideal.
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“The “Boomers†are very much responsible for the decline of Western Civilization, at least the decline that was accelerated in the late 20th century. The “Me†generation thought they knew better than all the millions of people that had gone before them. Their collective narcissism, smugness and gluttony was beyond anything the world had seen before.”
I’m a boomer, born towards the end of the spectrum. My father wasn’t. He was too young to be enlisted for WWII, turning 18 a few months after the war ended.
Apart from a few years in his earliest infancy, the flow of government subsidised benefits never stopped. He was assured a pension for his elderly years before he was 10 years old. Medical costs, hospital stays and schooling have been free of charge nearly all of his life (and remain so for his age group). A university education was freely available, with most living costs provided by the state up until around 1980. My parents received state benefits simply for being parents, as did all other parents at the time. Child-care and monitoring services were free. Kindergartens were free. Interest payments on mortgages were taxable deductions from income.
It was those of his generation, and the generation before that introduced unemployment benefits, sickness and accident benefits and government sponsoring of unmarried mothers. It was also them that brought in no-fault divorce, abortion-on-demand, punitive marital property law for men and the notion of marital rape.
We boomers grew up in such a world, we didn’t invent it. If anything, we’re the first generation that has started paying the price of those before. The families of my father’s generation were not blown apart by divorce laws – ours was the first. We were the first generation that had the malicious presence of the TV in our households – one of the principal agents in the destruction of the family. We’re also unlikely to get the same retirement benefits – many of us have already accepted that it’s wisest to expect and plan for getting nothing.
It may be convenient to blame us for all that went on before, but it’s far from correct.
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Lol!
Hello Mr. AH,
It is I, said me!
Haven’t been up to much… which is the way I seem to be prefering life nowadays. Gesh! Life is as simple or difficult as you choose to make it, eh?
@ Zed,
I have put a series of four articles together in one final article, trying to tie it all together, here:
http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2007/09/achilles-heel.html
I have been half-assed going through my old articles and “polishing them up,” but this one I haven’t done yet, although, this was one theory that took me quite a while of having it bang around in my head before the fog lifted. It could definitely be expanded, and – I believe, it is extremely well suited to the kind of online activism that most of us are familiar with… as in, I believe it could actually be a real effective strategy. But, then again, I am just another Moses, and the horses don’t seem to want to drink my water too easily. It comes down to, I think, the various levels of which people become aware of “the problem.”
Although, with all my studying on this particular subject, I must say that this is still the only “Achilles Heel” that I can find. It is a pretty smart system we are fighting.
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The thing what I find is the hardest is the Dialectic… well, to convince people to study it and keep it in mind.
So far, the best way I can think to describe what is going on is to bring it back into “man terms” and refer to a game of pool/billiards.
If you imagine what happens when you first get presented with the game of pool, it all seems so simple. Put the ball in the pocket, and put them there faster than your opponent. Seems pretty simple.
Until you discover that your opponent is playing with “shape”, and using bank shots and english… now the game becomes different.
This is what has happened to us. We think it is all about potting balls, but it isn’t, it is about playing shape.
I love hustling a hustler.
How about you?
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Props to fedrz, this the sort of thing I was invisioning a few weeks back:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/14/data-and-denunciations/#comment-2245
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/14/data-and-denunciations/#comment-2309
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Most of the women I know have rape fantasies. My own follow three scripts (and have done so since I hit puberty):
1) Hero: I’m about to be raped by the “bad guy” and the “good guy” saves me. Sometimes he’s just a few minutes too late and then he beats the crap out of the “bad guy” in retribution.
2) Narcissism: A man — usually someone powerful or forbidden — becomes so overwhelmed that he just can’t help himself. These aren’t really rape fantasies because I begin to enjoy it at some point.
3) Violation: These are the ones no woman wants to admit to having. In these I’m raped (sometimes gang-raped) by men I find absolutely repulsive who beat the crap out of me and leave me lying in a gutter in the rain. Sometimes I die in the end and sometimes I’m just beaten senseless and my face is unrecognizable because of the swelling and bruising.
I used to think having these fantasies made me some sort of freak until I asked a few friends about it when we were all drunk. They all had rape fantasies and one of them even had the violation kind. Except in hers she’s suffocated, cut up into pieces, and thrown into a garbage can at the end.
This doesn’t mean we want to be raped or abused in anyway.
I think it’s more the female version of wet-dream. It’s emotional release. We’re stuck in dominant roles so much and it grates on us over time. Many of us would like to be submissive but even when we try our men aren’t up to the ball. They refuse to make decisions, refuse to show leadership, refuse to be rough in bed. They’re not used to being dominant and the whole idea is foreign to them. Often they think something is wrong with us for even bringing it up.
This is when women start nagging, screaming, picking fights, flirting with others, etc. It’s a cry for help. I’ve heard men say they think it’s because we want attention, and for some women it is that. But often it’s because we want domination. It’s like we’re saying, “Step up and act like a man. Don’t let me get away with this!” Children do something similar when they act up and are disappointed if they’re not punished. Women aren’t children, but sometimes we react like children.
Being with a weak man makes us feel unsafe. We want our men to be heros not jellyfish. If he can’t even dominate me, how is he going to protect me?
At this point she got right up in my face and started screaming at me “Don’t hit that, hit me, HIT ME!!!â€
The problem was that you were arguing with her before. Never argue with a woman. A quiet, sane discussion is okay but if she’s getting emotional it’s because there’s an undercurrent of something more. She was losing respect for you and when you hit that cabinet something primeval just jumped out of her. She didn’t want you to hit her, she wanted you to “put her in her place”; to put your foot down and tell her what’s what.
I’ve been in a similar situation. I once nagged my boyfriend about something inconsequential for days on end. Drove him absolutely batty. He kept trying to reason with me and then he just blew up and got in my face and screamed, “Shut up! I told you what I’m going to do and that’s the way I’m going to do it. If you don’t like it, tough!” I completely shocked him (and myself) by responding, “Oh, okay.” We had a couple of incidents like that and now I don’t nag him at all anymore.
Now I even act sort of snotty toward women who nag their men. Not just because they’re rude but because they’re with weak men. Often I’ll snicker and make a comment like, “My man wouldn’t put up with that kind of crap.” It’s in the same tone I use when I point out a sluttily-dressed girl and ask, “Does her father know she’s walking around like that?”
It’s true that women are strange but that’s just the way we are and if you want to get along with us you just have to recognize that and deal with it.
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Honesty award for Anon!
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She didn’t want you to hit her, she wanted you to “put her in her placeâ€; to put your foot down and tell her what’s what.
Bullshit. I had been telling her what was what for 3 months. She had this entire elaborate dinner cooked for me to take to my family’s Christmas celebration and I had told her all along that it wasn’t going to happen. While I was upstairs gathering things to take with me, she had set the entire batch behind my car and came up demanding the keys so she could load it.
Now, I agree that I had failed a lot of her shit tests along the way, including letting her move in in the first place. But, it was more than 20 years ago and I was still caught in that “my word is my bond” trap.
A shit-test ceases to be a “test” when it turns into a perpetual control battle. Yes, the mistake I made was not simply setting the boxes of food in the yard and driving off – but I had not yet reached the point of realizing that there was absolutely no point in continuing the relationship.
As a result of that argument, I did tell her what was what – that she was being put out of my house. End of story.
It’s true that women are strange but that’s just the way we are and if you want to get along with us you just have to recognize that and deal with it.
And when getting along with you is more trouble than it is worth, we go do something else.
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Anon
“Women aren´t children, but sometimes we act like children.”
Excuse me, but where the hell is the difference?? If you act like a child, you automatically lose the right to be treated with any of the respect and courtesy that you show an adult person. Female or male.”Step up and act like a man! -Don´t let me get away with this!” -Has absolutely nothing to do with wether the guy is a man or not. As a matter of fact, I´d consider him a whole lot more of a man, if he refuses to play the game and “put her in her place”. Grow up, fer crissake!!-It has however a whole lot to do with the fact, that most women who practice this, are snotty-nosed brats who have been treated like little princesses since day one, and refuse to grow up and face the fact, that they can´t always have it their way.
“It´s true that women are strange but that´s just the way we are and if you want to get along with us you just have to recognize that and deal with it.”
No, YOU deal with your own “strangeness”.I don´t have to recognize any of that shit from anyone – I am an adult person!!
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I do think we need to be realistic as to what women are like, though. Someone like anon is just being honest.
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Novaseeker
Why are you making excuses for that percentage of female grown-ups, who can´t handle being an adult ? Who refuses to take the responsibilities of adulthood, and demands to be treated like a child whenever things are not going their way? Who wants to eat the cookie while keeping it ? In doing so, you are only making things worse for the women who actually wants to be treated like adults, and who has proven that they can handle it.
Whereever they are…
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Not making excuses, but I think that Anon is telling it like it is. She’s basically admitting that the core, underlying ideas of LTR game are 100% true.
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Anon just laid out the principles of Game in all its glory. Thank you.
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She’s basically admitting that the core, underlying ideas of LTR game are 100% true.
Which is why I am strong supporter of all young men learning Game.
Men of my generation were really set up. We were raised to be good little Beta providers in the Beaver, Wally, Ward Cleaver mold. Nothing prepared us for the real behavior of women, and many of us were stuck with BS ideas rooted in chivalry that simply did not work.
In addition, the suburban lifestyle was a wasteland that created a deep divide between fathers and sons. Men spent the day away from the family, and when they did get home all that most kids saw of them was their temperament – which after a day of dealing with corporate BS was usually stressed, impatient, and often rage-filled. Men’s role as the enforcer of mom’s dictates – “You just wait until your father gets home” – made the authoritarian position many men took appear irrational and extremely biased. Mothers could lie through their teeth about what a child did and fathers would often clobber the kid without even giving him a chance to tell his side of the story.
There were a lot of reasons why Abbie Hoffman came up with his famous dictum “Never trust anyone over 30.”
Boys were faced with the dilemma of accepting alienation from both parents, or choosing an affinity for the one which was generally less angry and punishing as well as more supportive. For a lot of men of my generation, the idea of how to be a “good man” was to be as unlike the explosive SOB as we could.
As I watched divorce rip through my generation, I repeatedly saw behavior of women that made absolutely no sense until I started learning about Game. That alone explained a lifetime of being baffled by the disparity and conflict between what women said and what they did, which I had previously had simply attributed to “Estrogen Psychosis” because I had no other explanation.
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Zed?
I was aware of you as Zenpriest on the Nice Guy boards a few years ago. I’m curious: WHEN did you learn “game”?
The reason I ask is that while alot of what is codified now could be gleaned from various books and an observation of lots of human female behavior back in say the 80′s or 90′s , it would have been much harder. I’m unaware for instance, of a single pickup guru who gave as much good useful practical and demonstratable advice as Mystery, and he didn’t start his classes till, if I remember from “The Game” the early part of this new century. Plus, you always seemed like a guy with at least the ordinary skills at picking up women, you just chose not to as you learned more about the laws and saw how they were from the 80′s on. Am I correct? Anyway, inquiring minds want to know -when did you learn about game?
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you always seemed like a guy with at least the ordinary skills at picking up women, you just chose not to as you learned more about the laws and saw how they were from the 80’s on. Am I correct? Anyway, inquiring minds want to know -when did you learn about game?
I’ve only learned about Game as Game in the past few months, mostly through guys like HL. The first exposure I had to it through doorknobs like Ace Poindexter who emphasized the PUA aspect gave me the same reaction as a lot of guys who oppose it without really understanding it.
I would say that there is about a 60% overlap between Game and the notions of traditional masculinity that I was taught 50 years ago. The 40% that doesn’t overlap includes a lot of really destructive BS I got taught, plus what seems to be a spontaneous rediscovery by men of the right things to do even if the reasons given for doing it are different today than they were 50 years ago.
As a result of my involvement with guys like Welmer, HL, Novaseeker, and some of the y0unger men who hang out here, I am seeing a significant change in the behavior of women over a couple of generations. The youngest woman I have ever dated was only 12 years younger than I was and still within the boomer generation. Most of the boomers have flailed around through some strange hybridization of old and new social values, and I believe it is only on the women raised entirely post-feminism that Game actually works.
I don’t know that I ever had any skills at “picking up women”, because that entire concept was as alien to the social landscape of my early life as cell phones and text messages – no one had even conceived them yet. I was brought up to be the kind of man that women had traditionally found attractive, and women of my generation still had enough vestiges of traditional values that they found that attractive. It was pretty much that simple. I remember being somewhat bewildered when I got a woman wet just by kicking the tires on my truck. It was a habit I didn’t even think about – I just did it as part of my routine inspection of the road-worthiness of the vehicle I was driving.
I didn’t ignore or neg women as a DHV, I did it simply because I was focussed on other things. The fact that it works the same no matter why you are doing it, is a testament to how accurate Game is in describing women’s behavior.
It seems odd to me that men today have to read books about how to be “manly.” I learned about “manliness” not from reading a book, but from standing in a barn stacking hay when it was 95 degrees outside and 140 degrees inside. If young men don’t have the opportunity to learn it in the way I did, thank god they at least have the chance to learn it somehow.
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A shit-test ceases to be a “test†when it turns into a perpetual control battle.
Agreed. That was my point. If it goes on for too long, the test is over and you failed. Her scream was one last hysterical attempt to get you to recognize the test. You reacted correctly by throwing her out, BTW. She had no more respect for you and was just going to continue to annoy the heck out of you and nag you to an early death. In fact, her respect for you probably climbed AFTER you threw her out.
She’s basically admitting that the core, underlying ideas of LTR game are 100% true.
Yeah, they’re true. But you won’t get me to admit to that in public. I’d be immediately lynched.
The problem I see with Game is that the kind of guys that generally use Game aren’t the “good guys”, they’re the “bad guys”. So you can use Game to weed out the undesirables. Then you’re stuck with men without Game and have to train them up yourself. Shit-test and see if they man-up and call you out on it. If they do, great. If they don’t, drop him (“You’re a nice guy.” or LJBF) and keep looking or keep him around for procreation and then drop him when you find someone better. It’s a highly inefficient and cruel system. It’d be better if every man knew how women actually work as that would level the playing field.
I sometimes think that that is one of the effects of feminism: because women can no longer assume that men are dominant they have to test each one singly. And it gives alphas a leg-up. Pre-selection means that some other woman probably already shit-tested him and he passed.
If you act like a child, you automatically lose the right to be treated with any of the respect and courtesy that you show an adult person. Female or male.
Men do a lot of baffling things, as well. Feminists use that as a reason to claim that they are worth less than women. But that reasoning is false. Men are men and women are women. We are different and should be judged in comparison with others of our own sex, not in comparison with the opposite sex.
Telling us to act, think, or behave the way men do, because that is the “right” way is foolish. That’d be like women telling men that they should really enjoy sipping tea out of dainty cups and knitting and if they’d just “get in touch with their feminine side” they’d finally see the light.
Be realistic. Women won’t change. Even feminism hasn’t changed us, it’s just warped us a bit and made us feel guilty for our true natures.
Excuse me, but where the hell is the difference??
The difference is that children act like that because they’re testing the boundaries and have low impulse control. Women act like that on purpose to shit-test you. They realize fully that you might just get annoyed and dump them but they figure it’s worth the risk to find out what you’re like. Get it right the first time and she may never try again. Get it wrong and your relationship will slowly decline.
You may say, then I’ll just stick to women who are naturally meek and submissive and skip the shit-testing control-freaks. That’s fine. But just realize that often the most intelligent, powerful, sexy, loyal and resourceful women are shit-testers. They’re tough and they’re looking for someone tougher. If you pass the test you’ve got it made. On the other hand, if you fail she can turn your life into a living hell. No pain, no gain.
Also remember that sometimes the meek women shit-test passively. They gain weight, laze around the house, act uninterested in sex, etc.
I don’t think it has much to do with feminism, either. Nagging and shit-testing has been around forever.
Just being honest here. Don’t shoot the messenger.
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Anon
Pull that shit on me and see how fast you´re out the door.
Wasn´t trying to shoot the messenger.
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Pull that shit on me and see how fast you´re out the door.
That’s where romantic love comes into play. Usually a woman won’t shit-test until she’s aware that you have invested emotionally in her. And remember, she’s not doing this out of malice. It’s more like instinct or a right-of-passage. She’s hoping you’ll pass and will be disappointed if you don’t. If she didn’t feel that way she wouldn’t be bothering with you in the first place.
The shit-test has a purpose. It’s to divine:
Is he emotionally strong or will he crumple and show weakness under pressure?
Does he have boundaries or does anything go?
Will he allow me to dominate him or does he have a backbone?
Is he fit to be my protector, provider, and father of my children? Yes or no?
Now prove it!
Shit-testing used to be unnecessary. But our world is so safe, regulated, and orderly now that there is little evidence for fitness. There’s a reason why so many women get turned on by men who do dangerous jobs, have powerful positions, or wear a military uniform. It shows fitness.
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As Anon said: “It’s true that women are strange but that’s just the way we are and if you want to get along with us you just have to recognize that and deal with it.â€
The point that some here are missing is that this is how many women are, because this is how they are “wired.â€
This is the way that they are, not the way that they have chosen to be. And, unless men want to remove women from their lives entirely, they do have to accept women for what they are, and then deal with them appropriately.
Continuing from Anon: “She didn’t want you to hit her, she wanted you to “put her in her placeâ€; to put your foot down and tell her what’s what.â€
Actually she didn’t want you to “tell†her, and then expect her to say “that sounds logical, so I shall now change my behavior.â€
She wanted you to remain in control of yourself, and put her in her place, physically. And for many women, that means a thorough bare-bottom spanking.
Men: when women try to explain their needs, for example on http://www.takeninhand.com, you should shut up and listen, instead of interrupting with “you are wrong, and what you really feel or mean or experience is actually …).
Women: it really isn’t reasonable to expect men to deal with your natural childishness in the way that you want and need, when that childish part of your nature (which can ultimately lead to many fun and loving experiences) can also call the police on a whim and destroy a man’s life.
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Anon:
In a long term relationship, it’s known men can fail SOME “shit tests”. Plus as a woman matures she tends to shit test a bit less. Women don’t forever remain incorrigible children waiting for daddy to spank them, and most “shit tests” are minor or playful in nature anyway – at least in the few long term marriages I’ve known about. I have no desire to mate with someone who will hate me for the slightest mis step or sign of weakness. Men are, after all, human and not robots.
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Her scream was one last hysterical attempt to get you to recognize the test.
I had recognized it the first time she brought it up 3 months before – when she announced that she would not be coming to the family celebration and I said that was fine. Then I ignored her hysterics. And, I ignored her ulitimate shit-test to try to harass me into marrying her, even though she enlisted the aid of some SoCon asshole to try to shame me into it.
just realize that often the most intelligent, powerful, sexy, loyal and resourceful women are shit-testers.
PR nonsense. “Meek” and “stupid bitch” are not polar opposites. Not one of the “shit-testers” I have known have been even slightly intelligent, powerful, sexy, loyal or resourceful. The sexiest, most intelligent, most resourceful woman I’ve ever known – a triple Scorpio – only hung around with men she could twist around her little finger. I asked her once why she always ended up with wimps. “Because I can control them. I could never control a man like you.” I never failed one of her shit tests, and I scared her.
There is no need to shoot any messengers – hitting the road works just fine.
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Zed
-Hitting the road…AAhhh, listen to that silence….
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Truth-telling from women is rare. Thanks for your candor. This is exactly why guys need to understand at least the underlying ideas behind Game, because they demystify women — regardless of whether a guy wants to “run” Game or not.
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Nothing like a good spanking.
It’s not about being mean all the time or ordering her around like a maid. That just shows weakness. It’s about drawing a line in the sand and saying, “Here’s the line, woman. Don’t go over the goddamn line.”
In a long term relationship, it’s known men can fail SOME “shit testsâ€.
Agreed. But that only happens if you’ve already established dominance. Then it becomes a game and part of flirtation and she’ll overlook the occasional fail. Otherwise it goes in the other direction: more and worse shit-testing. Eventually he ends up hen-pecked and dreads coming home at night.
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kis November 2, 2009 at 12:17 am writes
…………………………….Editing……..
What I (and I think very many women–and granted, not every time, but frequently) want is to be pinned down and taken. Use me roughly, even callously. Don’t worry about whether I get off, just slake your lust as if you can’t get enough of me. Devour me. Ravish me. If you finish before I do, hell, it only takes about thirty seconds for us to rectify that once things have calmed down.
Kis, what you describe is not rape. It sounds like rough, aggressive, *consensual* sex. A fantasy about rough, aggressive, *consensual* sex is not a rape fantasy.
It sounds strange to me, but who am I to dictate another’s sexual life?
Please keep in mind that for a man to try what you suggested would result in arrest, imprisonment, loss of job and other negative outcomes.
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@Hellbunny:
That doesn’t describe only my fantasy. It describes the sex I like best. And it is consensual–consent is tacit or implied by lack of firm objection (a “no” or “stop” in a firm voice). And the last man to try it did not end up arrested or imprisoned or unemployed. He ended up pretty damn pleased, and so did I.
I find it terribly sad that feminist laws making rape the default setting for any sex between a man and a woman make it next to impossible for me to get the kind of sex I like from men–whether it’s casual or within LTRs.
For my actual rape fantasies, I’ll refer you to this comment:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/01/womens-rape-fantasies-the-deepest-taboo/#comment-7501
The first one is pretty much what I described above. The others are things I would never do (or want to do) except maybe as roleplay with a very trusted, long term partner.
The issue here is that most women like to be dominated in bed–maybe not every time, and maybe not as…vigorously as I do, but they want the man to take charge. That’s what feels most natural–he is the penetrator, she is the penetratee. He acts upon her, she is acted upon. A man cannot take charge in bed if he must ask permission for every escalation of sexual interaction. He just can’t. And the very act of him asking for permission is enough to spoil the mood for a lot of women.
It’s the classic catch-22 for men. Don’t ask permission and risk a rape charge. Ask permission, and she loses interest.
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The prerogative of a Man is to find for himself a mate. So much as he avoids taking another man’s mate, no barrier (legal or customary) should be placed to obstruct him.
Females should be married off to men once said females are able to have children (usually at age 12, 13, or 14.)
The “penalty†for the rape of a young unmarried female should be that she is awarded to the man as a permanent wife of his (As stated in Deuteronomy 22)
Men should rape their wives at will.
Females should obey their husbands in all things, as if they were domestic servants.
If a nation seeks to opress its men by denying them these liberties, than it should be destroyed.
Death To women’s Rights
Viva Men’s Liberty
Liberty (for Men). Equality (amongst Men). Fraternity
–MikeeUSA–
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“””Doug1 November 1, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Scenes of unambiguous rape doesn’t fire my imagination at all, but borderline situations, where’s she’s won over in the end, and how, do.
If the woman never loves it, I never like it. But the timing of when she does is another matter.”””
Doug lives for the approval of women.
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I’m at a loss, I have no idea how to put this delicately. Mikee, you’re an idiot. What you’re suggesting isn’t a society, it’s slavery of the sort that feminists claim to be fighting against, and until now I had never seen any evidence anywhere that there was anyone who actually supported it. Biblical societies recognized that women needed the protection of men, but they did not require that women marry against their will at any age; indeed, a big deal is made out of the fact that Rebecca was asked if she wanted to go with Eliezer (to marry Isaac) before she left–the Talmud indicates that this fact should be taken to indicate that a woman should never be married off against her will, regardless of how favorable the circumstances would be. Similarly, your Deuteronomy reference is equally absurd; the point of this dictate was to allow for the possibility that a woman and her lover might have been caught having premarital sex (which did occur) with the intention that they might marry (not yet announced for whatever reason; lack of familial approval or so forth). If the woman had truly been raped, the course of action would have been to claim betrothal with a young male from a sympathetic family, get the rapist stoned to death (see the sections a few verses earlier), and then break off the betrothal citing the incident as the cause (indeed, many betrothals were probably of precisely this protective sort to begin with).
Your completely ridiculous position on these issues–defending the exact position feminists want to fight against–strikes me as probable trolling, but I’m prepared to attempt to correct your mistaken positions if you are honestly interested in debate on these issues.
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Oh, make no mistake Arbitrary:
MikeeUSA truly does hate women.
He got banned from a MGTOW board I used to attend because he offended a group of men of which a good percent (no, not the majority but a sizeable minority) didn’t think women should have the right to vote. Yes, he is that extreme.
The only redeeming feature about him besides pissing rad fems such as Ginmar off in a MAJOR way, is that he has a decent amount of programming experience. So my final word on Mikee is this:
A. I won’t welcome him into any movement I’m a part of
B. I hope he gets over the screwing the feminists on some of those computer boards gave him. Obnoxious as he is , he did not deserve that, and if I could hire him to do a programming job or something I would.
C. For his sexual kinks I recommend he go to Germany or someplace where sixteen or seventeen year olds can legally hook. Since some of them look a few years younger he could get his kink on without harming those that are just out of childhood.
Otherwise for his preferences about raping females, forced marriages, etc, he can just go to hades for all I care.
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“Otherwise for his preferences about raping females, forced marriages, etc, he can just go to hades for all I care.”
I’d rather be in my version of hell than your version of heaven.
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“Biblical societies recognized that women needed the protection of men, but they did not require that women marry against their will at any age;”
Perhaps such is so of “biblical societies”, but the Laws of the Bible do not care for the will of the female. (The people in the societies themselves may have, but they are of the same makeup as our and every society: mostly pro-women’s rights grovelers and a few anti-women’s rights men.)
The prerogative of a Man is to find for himself a mate. So much as he avoids taking another man’s mate, no barrier (legal or customary) should be placed to obstruct him.
Females should be married off to men once said females are able to have children (usually at age 12, 13, or 14.)
The “penalty†for the rape of a young unmarried female should be that she is awarded to the man as a permanent wife of his (As stated in Deuteronomy 22)
Men should rape their wives at will.
Females should obey their husbands in all things, as if they were domestic servants.
If a nation seeks to opress its men by denying them these liberties, than it should be destroyed.
Death To women’s Rights
Viva Men’s Liberty
Liberty (for Men). Equality (amongst Men). Fraternity
–MikeeUSA–
Girls should be raped into marraige at age 12, 13, or 14. Men should never be punished for persuing a mate who is not yet the property of another man (a girl who has not had relations with another man).
Dueteronomy 22 states that if a man rapes an unmarried virgin female, who is not the wife or betrothed of another man, he marries her, doesn’t divorce her, and pays her father some money.
As for seduction, that
I do not care what the particular rabbis who’s voices we find in the Talmud have opined on the subject. There are rabbis who read the laws straight, without exegis, and come to the same conclusion as I.
Furthermore, I don’t even care if you and some liberal rabbis of old’s opinions are correct: I am INFAVOR of men CHOOSING their own wives (and NOT the other way around.) Either way I am infavor of men NOT being punished for RAPING young fertile females (what you would term GIRLS) and instead having the young fertile female (girl) FORCED to marry her RAPIST. This is good for the Man, and thus I support it. Since it is good for the man you should support it too.
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“Biblical societies recognized that women needed the protection of men, but they did not require that women marry against their will at any age;”
Perhaps such is so of “biblical societies”, but the Laws of the Bible do not care for the will of the female. (The people in the societies themselves may have, but they are of the same makeup as our and every society: mostly pro-women’s rights grovelers and a few anti-women’s rights men.)
Girls should be raped into marraige at age 12, 13, or 14. Men should never be punished for persuing a mate who is not yet the property of another man (a girl who has not had relations with another man).
Dueteronomy 22 states that if a man rapes an unmarried virgin female, who is not the wife or betrothed of another man, he marries her, doesn’t divorce her, and pays her father some money.
As for seduction, that is dealt with in another area of the law books (man must, at the option of the father, marry young female OR pay money to father if he does not marry her)
I do not care what the particular rabbis who’s voices we find in the Talmud have opined on the subject. There are rabbis who read the laws straight, without exegis, and come to the same conclusion as I.
Furthermore, I don’t even care if you and some liberal rabbis of old’s opinions are correct: I am INFAVOR of men CHOOSING their own wives (and NOT the other way around.) Either way I am infavor of men NOT being punished for RAPING young fertile females (what you would term GIRLS) and instead having the young fertile female (girl) FORCED to marry her RAPIST. This is good for the Man, and thus I support it. Since it is good for the man you should support it too.
Death To women’s Rights.
Viva Men’s Liberties.
–MikeeUSA–
PS: The reason you believe as you do is because you were taught to believe as you do. You do not exibit any critical thinking ability nor do you give a damn about your fellow man. You care about women, not men.
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“””If the woman had truly been raped, the course of action would have been to claim betrothal with a young male from a sympathetic family, get the rapist stoned to death (see the sections a few verses earlier), and then break off the betrothal citing the incident as the cause (indeed, many betrothals were probably of precisely this protective sort to begin with).”””
I pray for the death of all those who would harm a man who has pursued and aquired, through his own power (raped), the virgin female whom he desired as a mate. I pray for the death of all those who have harmed a man who has persued and aquired, through his own power (raped), the virgin female whom he desired as a mate. I pray for the death of all those who support the harming a man who has persued and aquired, through his own power (raped), the virgin female whom he desired as a mate.
I pray for the death of all those who would harm a man for having relations with young females of early childbearing age (12, 13, 14 years old), and those who incite such harm to be done to men. I pray for the death of all those who have harmed a man for having relations with young females of early childbearing age (12, 13, 14 years old), and those who have incited such harm to be done to a man. I pray for the death of all those who support the harming of a man for having relations with young females of early childbearing age (12, 13, 14 years old), and those who have supported those who have incited such harm to be done to a men.
The prerogative of a Man is to find for himself a mate. So much as he avoids taking another man’s mate, no barrier (legal or customary) should be placed to obstruct him.
A young virgin female of childbearing age whom a man has raped should become become a wife of his. (As Dueteronomy 22 tells us.) The young female should become the man’s wife because it is good for a man to have a wife. It is not good for men to be murdered or punished for attempting to aquire a mate. No man who is a friend to mankind supports men being harmed for such things. Those who support men being harmed for pursuing or aquiring a virgin female are enemies of man.
Death To women’s Rights.
Viva Men’s Liberties.
Liberty (for Men). Equality (amongst Men). Fraternity
–MikeeUSA–
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