Megablogger Steve Pavlina Facing Divorce Annihilation

Post image for Megablogger Steve Pavlina Facing Divorce Annihilation

by W.F. Price on October 27, 2009

Steve Pavlina, who has made a name for himself as a skillful and successful blogger, drawing huge amounts of traffic through his fascinating “Personal Development for Smart People” articles, has separated from his wife and is facing divorce ruin. Steve has always been good at putting a positive spin on things, and is a major proponent of “Inner Game,” but it looks like his adventures finally led to the likely conclusion.

Steve began experimenting with “polyamory” recently, probably because, well… here he is with his wife:

Look at the painful grimace on Steve’s face. Poor fella!

Here is another photo that provides an amusing contrast (note lack of ring on left hand):

Looks a bit more enthusiastic there, doesn’t he? Same expression, but yet something is clearly different… Funny how easy it is to see, isn’t it?

Seems his separation took him by surprise. According to Steve, he didn’t know until this month what was coming down the pipe:

Here are some answers to a few questions that I figure some people will ask us.

Did you know about this before or during the October workshop?

No, this decision was made afterwards. It was partly the awareness-raising effect of the workshop itself that encouraged us to take a deeper look at our relationship. If you had told me at the start of the workshop that this is where we’d be today, I wouldn’t have believed you.

“Awareness-raising effect” sounds like code for “my wife caught me sneaking into some girl’s hotel room after meeting her at the workshop.”

Nevertheless, Steve doesn’t fail to put a positive spin on things, even alimony if you can believe it:

I don’t mind taking on more of a financial burden in this case, not just with the bigger mortgage but with alimony and childcare payments too.

My bet is that “I don’t mind” actually means “given California divorce law, I have no choice.”

To his credit, Steve is fairly honest about what led to his divorce. His experiments with “polyamory,” which likely favored him over his wife (just look at the photo), were apparently the precipitating factor:

Did polyamory play a role in this?

To a certain extent, yes. It helped us discover new truths about ourselves.

This year we both opened ourselves up to having deeper intimate connections with other people. This was a bit of an exploration process. It gave both of us more clarity to see that our marriage wasn’t the best vehicle for our long-term happiness. We were happy in some areas but not in others. We had reached a dead-end and needed to let go of the marriage to get around it. Otherwise we’d end up working harder and harder trying to make each other happy, with worsening results.

Steve, we’re all sorry it came to this. A gamesman and entrepreneur who has served as a role model to thousands of people is facing the financial dry-cleaning of his life, and all because your wife caught you with your polyamorous pants down.

But Steve, we’ve got your back. Put up a fight (we know you will), and stick to your guns. You’ll come out of this OK, and far, far wiser than before.

I look forward to more news from Steve Pavlina, who is obviously a brilliant guy and has been an inspiration to many a blogger — he was one of the blogosphere’s first and best success stories. If he can handle his divorce as well as he’s handled some of his other foibles (read the part about his arrest for grand theft), we should all pay close attention to the lessons he imparts.

{ 301 comments… read them below or add one }

Talleyrand October 27, 2009 at 11:53

This could end up an object lesson to all men, depending on how badly he gets screwed by California.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 12:03

Frankly, someone with an audience this big might just bring light to the unconstitutional tyranny of ‘Family Court’. I mean, we have men dying overseas to ‘defend the US constitution’, yet we have a shadow tyranny right here in America, that has enslaved a nontrivial percentage of the male population.

The tipping point can arrive at any time.

He should tie up with Mel Gibson and Elon Musk (both are ultrawealthy men facing divorce in California) to highlight the injustices. Also facing financial ruin (in Florida) after his wife of 24-years decided to take away his lifetime of VERY hard work : Hulk Hogan.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 12:09

This could end up an object lesson to all men, depending on how badly he gets screwed by California.

He currently lives in Nevada, but I’m pretty sure he got married in CA, so I’m assuming that’s where his wife will file. I don’t think Nevada’s much better, but I don’t know for sure.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Wocka October 27, 2009 at 12:12

HA! I knew that was going to happen.

IIRC, Erin may have been Steve’s first girlfriend and they got married young.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 12:15

He currently lives in Nevada, but I’m pretty sure he got married in CA, so I’m assuming that’s where his wife will file.

I think where you got married does not matter, where the filing spouse lived for the last 6 months is what matters.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Globalman October 27, 2009 at 12:25

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 17
JohnnyBravo October 27, 2009 at 12:28

The second I read the word “polyamory” I knew that the guy would look like a greaseball in un-photoshopped pictures, and his wife like a landwhale.

Polyamory is just disgusting people who cannot ever hope for quality going for quantity instead.

And despite all the bullshit about “you own my soul but not my body” and “I will totally respect your choices” or whatever, whenever one such lovely couple starts engaging in it, the result is a slow-motion trainwreck shot from 5 different angles and with more explosions than a Michael Bay summer blockbuster. Perhaps the best testament to the legitimacy of marriage (as it used to be) and fidelity.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 30 Thumb down 1
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 12:28

Globalman,

Can you set up a blog with crisp articles about all this, addressed to an audience that may have no legal background at all (essentially a ‘for Dummies’ guide)? Perhaps you can ask Welmer about posting such legal-strategy articles here.

I think you have invaluable things to say, but the comments are hard to follow for those who aren’t well versed in the law.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 12:37

Keep in mind WHY marriage worked in the ‘old days’.

a) People married at 20, and usually died by 50. Thus, the wife was still decent-looking for half or more of the married lifetime, and due to having to do hard work, the wife was rarely obese. This is no longer true when people marry at 33 and live to be 80+, and many more women are obese.
b) At any given time, 10-20% of young men died either on the battlefield or in occupational accidents. Thus, there were distinctly more women age 25-40 than men. Widows were common, and clearly visible. Thus, women with husbands were actually lucky, and treated their fortune with appropriate respect. A wealthy man having a mistress was also quietly accepted, again due to the surplus of women.
c) There was no financial compensation for a single mother or adultress, and there was social shaming. The poverty, ostracization, and thus physical danger facing them was real.

All this made marriage work in the old days. None of these binding factors still exist today, and the risks have all been transferred to the man.

Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 21
Globalman October 27, 2009 at 12:37

The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 12:15 pm
“where the filing spouse lived for the last 6 months is what matters.”
Fifth, this is not true. The courts are private run for profit companies that offer their adjudication services just like McDonalds offers you burgers. You don’t have to eat at McDonalds and you don’t have to go to divorce court if you educate yourself and organise yourself before divorce happens.

Unfortunately, the guvment, courts, banks are in league in their corruption and desire to abuse men so even if you refuse the jurisdiction of the court the court will steal what you think is your money because you don’t actually own any money or anything else for that matter. Any person who has not filed a UCC 1 Financing Statement can’t own any ‘money’ or any ‘property’ that is in their ‘NAME’ as in the name on their berth certificate. Just as in my case. The corrupt judge in Ireland froze my bank accounts prior to any document being served on me…this is unlawful and he deserves to go to jail because he knew it was unlawful when he did it.

So my advice to ALL men who are married is to sell up everything and get YOUR half out of your ‘jurisdiction’ immediately based on the assumption that you WILL get divorced one day and the banks WILL be complicit with the corrupt courts in taking what you think is your money but it really all belongs to the state. How many of you know that anything you sign your NAME to is actually owned by the state? In the west we have been practicing the first plank of the communist manifesto ‘abolish property ownership’ since we brought in birth certificates….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4
Firepower October 27, 2009 at 12:41

this article is
some kind
of joke

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Gunslingergregi October 27, 2009 at 12:49

How else can you have a plethera of kids johnny?

one woman can only have so many kids.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3
Globalman October 27, 2009 at 12:59

Fifth…..
“Keep in mind WHY marriage worked in the ‘old days’.”
Marriage was a creation of the Illuminati to increase the population and to have new supplies of good worker slaves (aka men) come along. The more rebellious and prone to violence worker slaves were culled by war etc leaving the more docile and more malleable worker slaves left to be told what to do…..

The reason marriage ‘worked’ was because there were no alternatives for women. The Illuminati made it clear from the policies they enforced through kings/guvments that the best way for a woman to get along was to be married and have children and they promoted the hell out of that idea. They also brainwashed men into wanting ‘wife and children’. They introduced heavy penalties for ‘rape’ and ‘adultery’ and it was accepted that there could be no rape inside a marriage. Therefore men could get what they wanted by being married as could women. The Illuminati got what they wanted….more slaves. Whola..all working….until we get 6B people…a little too ‘successful’.

Now the Illuminati agenda is de-population. The driving engine of population growth has to be done away with. Marriage. To do away with marriages is easy. Just give women the ability to have ‘babies and money’ sans man until men will no longer marry. This is exactly what the UNs madated introduction of Family Law in all UN countries did. Marriage rates have fallen through the floor since 1974. The state of marriage today was not imaginable 30 years ago. That is a hell of a big change in just 30 years. Half a lifetime.

Further. By placing BPA into the plastics all around us they are also sterilising men and pretty soon it will only be possible for women to get pregnant with medical intervention. When that happens women will be at the complete mercy of the guvment because they will need the guvments good help to get pregnant. Just stealing sperm from a man will not be enough to get her pregnant. And only a small percentage of women will be allowed to get pregnant. The rest will suffer the fate of men….a lifetime of boring work..LOL!!

Most people don’t know that fertility rates in men are dropping like a stone. In just 30 years or so fertility rates in men have dropped 50%. All quite deliberate. The FIRST plastics to have BPA put into them were babies bottles….feeding the little boys their BPA so as to make them infertile from day 1….charming.

Try this 44 minute video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7530701744597358451&ei=7k_nSsKtLKLEqgKd67xz&q=the+disappearing+male#

I’d have thought that chemical sterilisation was of interest to most men, but it seems not. Most just shrug their shoulders and say “Ok, well, guess that’s it for kids then”. The women have lost badly and they don’t even know it yet…well, they soon will…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 13:03

How else can you have a plethera of kids johnny?

Sperm donation (through an official bank, of course).

No relationship with the kids until after they are 18, of course, but on a purely genetic basis, I have won the genetic game to a greater degree than 99.999% of men.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4
JohnnyBravo October 27, 2009 at 13:14

At this point, with the marriage laws we have in the US, and given the fact that he lives near the Mexican border (relatively speaking), he could just pull a reverse Mexican by grabbing all his shit, swimming across the Rio Grande, and never looking back, living a life of pina coladas, blow and hookers in the good ol Mejico.

Better than having all your shit taken by the lard Medusa.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 13:17

Welmer,

Actually, I don’t see Steve claiming at all that the divorce laws are unfair.

I find it extremely unfair that SHE became fat, yet HE has to pay. But somehow he doesn’t quite seem to see it that way.

OR, he is staying magnanimous until it is over, so as not to say anything that can be used against him (more likely).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 13:22

Johnny Bravo,

I would go further. Why stay in Mexico too long?

Go to Mexico first (as you indicate), make her THINK he is in Mexico, and THEN leave from Mexico to Indonesia, Thailand, India, Dubai, or wherever. Since the ticket is from Mexico to the third country, she won’t even know what country he is in.

That is the way to do it.

A 2 bedroom flat in a 2nd-tier Indian city is only $60,000. He would have most first-world amenities. There would be a fair number of Westerners to socialize with. He could even continue to blog, without giving away what country he is in.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Zammo October 27, 2009 at 13:36

I find it extremely unfair that SHE became fat, yet HE has to pay. But somehow he doesn’t quite seem to see it that way.

And this is yet another why marriage is a trap for so many guys. It’s far too easy for a wife to let herself go because there is nothing the husband can do. Marriage is all about cupcake and her needs… especially if that means eating lots of cupcakes.

As for the “baby weight”, it’s a lame excuse for lazy women.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 13:40

As for the “baby weight”, it’s a lame excuse for lazy women.

Agreed. In India, you will see poor women who gave birth to 8 kids and still have a totally flat stomach, due to the hard labor that they do day in and day out.

Being fat after childbirth is not mandatory at all.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4
Black&German October 27, 2009 at 13:55

Actually, it’s due to breastfeeding and babywearing, something that is equally effective in Western women.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Doug1 October 27, 2009 at 14:09

Welmer–

He currently lives in Nevada, but I’m pretty sure he got married in CA, so I’m assuming that’s where his wife will file. I don’t think Nevada’s much better, but I don’t know for sure.

Where they were married is irrelevant. It’s the state in which the couple, or at least one of the spouses had established permanent residency immediately prior to a filing for divorce, that has jurisdiction in contested cases. Permanent residency is determined in the same way it is for income tax purposes.

California has the strong presumption of lifetime alimony in long marriages, i.e. greater than 10 years. Nevada seems to have primarily “rehabilitative” alimony; i.e. alimony while ex wife gets a graduate degree particularly if the husband got one during the marriage but the wife didn’t. I.e. Nevada looks like a MUCH better state on alimony than California now is. Though I bet case law in Nevada on alimony has been getting worse lately. That’s the trend. Nevada is also getting a lot more liberal than it was.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 14:13

Nevada is also getting a lot more liberal than it was.

Because Mexicans are moving in there, and blindly vote Democrat (even if their own values are strongly in favor of traditional gender roles).

A weird cause and effect : the lack of political maturity leads to Hispanics not knowing what they are voting for, which in turn enables SWPL lefto-feminism that bypasses the constitution.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Johnny October 27, 2009 at 14:43

You can tell that the second photo of him and the woman is more genuine and enthusiastic because his eye muscles are engaged. His eyes are smiling along with his mouth.

In the pic with his cow wife by contrast, only his mouth is smiling, without his eyes and the muscles in the rest of his face engaged. This is the classic fake smile, where you force yourself to spread your mouth out.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 14:47

@Johnny

The sad thing is that his wife is really smiling in the first pic, but in the second one the girl just has this smirk on her face. It is almost as though the pictures are inverted by gender.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0
Johnny October 27, 2009 at 15:12

Welmer,

Yeah, good point. I just noticed that.

In addition to the smirk, the girl in the second pic tilts her head away from him, as if she’s not trying to get too close to him.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0
Globalman October 27, 2009 at 15:14

The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 1:17 pm
“Actually, I don’t see Steve claiming at all that the divorce laws are unfair.”
Fifth,
They are not laws, they are statutes and they are fraudulently called laws. Who cares if they are unfair if you do not have to be subject to them?

Just as a question. You are around here a lot. I’ve posted here quite a bit that the things the congress and state guvments pass are statutes and not laws yet you insist on calling them laws. Why is that? Do you know what legislation is? Do you know how it works? Do you know you have no obligation to consent to them? Do you know they are not laws? They are not ‘the law of the land’ and neither is your constitution no matter what it says. I’m kind of curious why a man who is obviously intelligent would continue to call legislation ‘laws’ when they are actually statutes. Aren’t we piercing the shield of ignorance here? And what could be more important than to pierce the shield of ignorance around statutes and laws?

I relocated to Germany. Some colleagues and I are setting up a mechanism to get men out of their home country when attacked by a their wife wielding a corrupt legal system.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
missy October 27, 2009 at 15:18

Well I saw this coming years ago. They were both nerds, she was always overweight, but now he has moved up in status and has access to women he would have never had access to. That whole open marriage thing was the beginning of the end. I mean really, the marriage was only open for him. I feel bad for the kids, hope things work out for them.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 15:31

Globalman,

Just as a question. You are around here a lot. I’ve posted here quite a bit that the things the congress and state guvments pass are statutes and not laws yet you insist on calling them laws. Why is that? Do you know what legislation is? Do you know how it works?

I don’t know anything about the laws and legal system. But I would like to now more. That is why I say it would be great for you to write up a guide for people who know nothing. A ‘for Dummies’ guide, if you will.

I would like to learn more about what you are describing, but your comments thus far have been hard for me to follow.

Write up a guide or a few articles. You might help out a lot of people.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
JohnnyBravo October 27, 2009 at 15:38

“Because Mexicans are moving in there, and blindly vote Democrat (even if their own values are strongly in favor of traditional gender roles). ”

I wouldn’t be so sure about Mexican-American values. It seems that second+ generation Mexican-Americans are regressing towards black culture, with all the mindless, unmasculine (quite feminine, actually) violence, lack of respect for proper women and the law that it entails.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3
zed October 27, 2009 at 16:09

I’m sorry, but reading around his site – the guy sounds like a complete tool.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 27, 2009 at 16:12

Globalman, IANAL, and I cannot speak for countries aside from the USA, but common law claims here are of a lower degree of validity within the court system than any “statutes” that contravene them, with the highest order “statute” being the US constitution. Unless you are prepared to evade or fight the US police force and/or US armed forces (neither of which do I recommend), you are ill-advised to attempt to remove yourself from the social contract. Even things that you might reasonably think would exempt you from these sorts of problems aren’t viewed that way by the government; for example, you can still be drafted or evade US taxes even if you renounce your US citizenship.

At its most basic level, government exists as an agreement between people to select some system or person which will have a monopoly on the use of force. Once it has that monopoly, however, that system can set all the rules it wants; the only way to change those rules is to either work within the system, or replace the system by force (again, not suggesting that this be done, but it has of course occurred numerous times historically). The rules, as set up by the US government at least, only accept common law insofar as it does not conflict with US and state laws, as well as US and state constitutions–and note that the acceptance of common law is a state by state phenomenon, so the exact terms with regards to how common law can (and can’t) be applied varies from state to state; some states accepted common law as a part of their state constitution, while others only accepted it via statute. Common law marriages, for example, are only completely recognized in Alabama, Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, and Washington D.C. (Georgia, Idaho, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and Utah conditionally recognize common law marriages within their borders under other stipulations). Refusing jurisdiction from a US divorce court, for another example, will likely only get you laughed at, as most states only require that ONE of the two people involved have been living there for some amount of time (usually 6 months).

I do not know to what extent common law claims are helpful in other former British colonies, such as Canada and Australia. But, to my knowledge, they are of extremely limited utility in the USA.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 16:13

I’m sorry, but reading around his site – the guy sounds like a complete tool.

;)

Yep. Hubris can be a bitch, can’t she?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO October 27, 2009 at 17:16

“Did polyamory play a role in this?

To a certain extent, yes. It helped us discover new truths about ourselves.

Jesus fucking christ, these god damn retards can sugarcoat anything. New truths about ourselves? You discovered you like sleeping with nubile, lithe, feminine young women and not fat old ones? Holy shit! I wish this was a madeup story.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2
Doug1 October 27, 2009 at 17:17

missy–

That whole open marriage thing was the beginning of the end. I mean really, the marriage was only open for him. I feel bad for the kids, hope things work out for them.

You mean only open for him because she became a sea cow and did nothing to reverse that? So how is her sex and love life going to get much better with this divorce that obviously she’s pushing? Or is she simply reflecting the American feminist influenced zeitgeist, that no woman can allow her man to play and still maintain any self respect (unless maybe she is too to an equal or greater extent), even if he does show that he still loves her and pays attention to her?

The difference in their sexual/mating market value now is stark. Further she’s the one pushing the divorce.

No she shouldn’t get alimony. Women don’t enforceably promise to sex their husbands in marriage, cook or do any housework for them even if their being supported in whole or very large part, be good mothers, or anything else, much less to continue to do any of that once the marriage is over. But men are supposed to remain enforceably, or so enforceably, obligated to support no only their children but also their wives through alimony long after the marriage is ended?

Obscene.

I think not.

No alimony in this age of fulsome female education and work opportunities, ever. Unless it was privately agreed by prenup, flipping that script.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9
HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS YO October 27, 2009 at 17:24

This guy is a real dick, I’m almost not sorry for his misfortune. Admittedly the terms of his divorce are hilariously unjust.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2
Brian Daniel October 27, 2009 at 17:29

A Positive Divorce Recovery Book for Your Website Members

Hi,
I am a local author in Canton/Akron, Ohio and have just published, last October 2008, a book on divorce recovery called “Yes, There Is an Upside of Divorce, It Can Be Your Second Chance at Life!” You can search “upside of divorce” on Amazon and read the great reviews I have there. One of my top 5-Star ratings is from Tracy, who is the owner of a national web support group called WomansDivorce.com and has used parts of my chapters for her members going through divorce.

I have sold over ninety copies locally and received the same great feedback, including some to the Church of New Hope in Stow, Ohio for their divorce support group.
I have also sold three copies to our Stark County Libraries for circulation here in Canton.

I am hoping you may want to buy some copies too to provide some good help and support to your divorced members of your website here. And perhaps they may want to buy their own copy as well.

My book has a more positive approach to divorce recovery and also goes further about how to make a happier and more enjoyable life after divorce.

For just $12 or so, my book could be another reference book or a gift of help from you to your members suffering through their divorce or separation.

Book Discounts are available on my own website, Self-Help-Products-and-Services (.com) where you can save $2 to $5 off Amazon’s costs per book.

I’m hoping you might try a couple books and see what your members say about it. I’m sure most, if not all of them, will find some good help in my book.

My ISBN is 978-1-4196-9304-5. I also have a workbook version that could be used for support groups and have other information and a photo of my book if you are interested.

If there are other people you think I should contact, please let me know.

Thanks for your consideration here.
Brian Daniel

http://www.Self-Help-Products-and-Services.com
Email: [email protected]

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
asd October 27, 2009 at 17:34

Jesus, just IP-ban Globalman.

There’s a place for crazy conspiracy theorists, and that place is usenet.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1
zed October 27, 2009 at 17:51

So how is her sex and love life going to get much better with this divorce that obviously she’s pushing?

Maybe she is one of those women whose fondest wish is to get as far away from a sex and love life as she can. I ran into a couple of them last weekend – two women I had gone to HS with about 40 years ago – sisters. One has been married once and the other one twice and that is the first thing they will tell you about themselves – along with their intentions to never do it again.

I think a lot of women are just asexual and once they have used sex to lock in an income are more than happy to dispense with it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5
Black&German October 27, 2009 at 18:04

I think a lot of women are just asexual and once they have used sex to lock in an income are more than happy to dispense with it.

Do you really think that?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 18:10

@B&G

I agree with zed. There is a spectrum with women, and some just aren’t all that into sex. It isn’t the man’s fault — it’s just the way it is. To these women, sex is just a means to an end.

However, there are plenty of women who truly enjoy and crave sex, but they have their own problems. However you look at it, this is a bad time for men to commit.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6
zed October 27, 2009 at 18:17

I think a lot of women are just asexual and once they have used sex to lock in an income are more than happy to dispense with it.

Do you really think that?

Yes. Most of my married friends are in sexless marriages. I know one man whose wife used to call me up in the first years of their marriage so she could complain to me about him wanting to have sex with her. What absolutely floored me was that she was very surprised when I did not agree with her about how “awful” that was. She sure hasn’t complained even once about not having to get a job to support herself, however.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
Black&German October 27, 2009 at 18:37

However, there are plenty of women who truly enjoy and crave sex

Me, me! Oh, me! Over here! I’m one!

LOL

The more sex you have the more sex you want. It becomes a habit and something your body just expects. When we were first married I was more hesitant but now I just have to think of having sex with him and I’m wet in 4.3 seconds or less. :-) Sometimes I’m like, “I can’t get the damn zipper down. Fuck! Let’s just cut the damn pants off!” horny.

I posted a link here that shares my views on “marital relations”. I guess I’m backwards that way (and very happy and satisfied because of it). Now I’m going to go shag my personal sex god (that’s “god” written small, of course). All this talking about sex just does me in.

Caio!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 18:38

I think a lot of women are just asexual and once they have used sex to lock in an income are more than happy to dispense with it.

I don’t think that is their true nature – just that they wanted the financial stability of a Beta provider, since they couldn’t the small percentage of men that women are attracted to, given their hypergamous nature.

Many women, particularly those below a 7 in looks, might never have actually had an extended relationship with a man they are attracted to. A couple of one-nighters at best. That is why many women are pushing for unofficial polygamy with an alpha male, which they would actually prefer ahead of exclusivity with a Beta provider.

If you read between the lines at the GirlGame blog, the ladies there sort of confirm this – one of their core themes is how a woman can get a ‘quality man’ to commit to her. Now, a ‘quality man’ is not just merely a Beta provider (of which there are plenty), but a man who generates attraction (a large element of which is Game). Of course, there are not enough such men to go around, and this is partly because female attraction has to do with a man’s status relative to other men, which is necessarily zero-sum.

Most of my married friends are in sexless marriages.

Most? I’d believe that one-third were sexless, 5 years in, but MOST?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
zed October 27, 2009 at 18:50

Most? I’d believe that one-third were sexless, 5 years in, but MOST?

I’m talking about marriages in the 20-40 yrs duration range. I’d say about in about 80% of them the sex steadily declined after having kids, and then one day some of these guys woke up and said “damn, it’s been 3 (or 5 or 7) years.” (or longer)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3
nilk October 27, 2009 at 18:54

I am also trying to stop the Australian courts taking my house and I have recently written to the AG of Australia and noticed him that I am holding him personally responsible for the actions of his subordinates in the private run for profit company called ‘The Australian Federal Magistrates Court’.

I can’t speak for how the other states here are situated, Globalman, but if you’re talking the AG’s dept in Victoria, you’ve got a battle on your hands.

The Attorney General here is Rob Hulls, and he’s been stacking the benches with feminists, activists and radicals for years.

He’s a total disgrace and you’ll get no support there.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 27, 2009 at 18:57

And despite all the bullshit about “you own my soul but not my body” and “I will totally respect your choices” or whatever, whenever one such lovely couple starts engaging in it, the result is a slow-motion trainwreck shot from 5 different angles and with more explosions than a Michael Bay summer blockbuster. Perhaps the best testament to the legitimacy of marriage (as it used to be) and fidelity.

If polyamory is your thing, it’s something you bring up at the start of a relationship–and before marriage–not some stupid-ass, misguided miracle cure for one that’s already stale and on the skids.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Stirling October 27, 2009 at 19:04

Quite frankly I can’t understand how you are supporting him in his infidelity. I have to say, shame on you… shame on you. So what, women are supposed to be faithful to their husbands but men can sleep around? Ugg… and I was just agreeing so much with you guys till you put up this filth.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 19:08

@Stirling

Try reading between the lines, Stirling.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 19:14

zed,

I’m talking about marriages in the 20-40 yrs duration range. I’d say about in about 80% of them the sex steadily declined after having kids,

Well… that is sad. How much of it is due to lack of drive, vs. the man simply losing attraction for the unavoidably aging and expanding wife?

Remember what I said about how in the old days, people married at 20, and died by 50. The situation you describe just didn’t have an opportunity in the old days, given how the 20th anniv was still at age 40 vs. at age 55 today.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
The Fifth Horseman October 27, 2009 at 19:17

Sterling,

Doesn’t she have an obligation to stay attractive, or at least trim, for him?

Most women have no idea how much weight gain does to kill female attractiveness.

Look at Pierce Brosnan’s wife. He was just about the most sought-after man in the world when he married in 1998 (at the peak of his James Bond incumbancy). He married a woman who was a 9.5 at the time, and 10 years younger than him. Today, Keely Shaye Smith has ballooned and is a 3. A fall from 9.5 to 3 in just 11 years. This is Pierce Brosnan’s wife for god’s sakes.

I never thought I would utter the following words, but I am glad that I am NOT sleeping next to the woman Pierce Brosnan has to sleep with.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7
zed October 27, 2009 at 19:22

How much of it is due to lack of drive, vs. the man simply losing attraction for the unavoidably aging and expanding wife?

Probably about half and half. The constant whining, complaining, and nagging can be as fatal to a man’s attraction as 50 extra kilos.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Puma October 27, 2009 at 19:23

Easier to divorce your husband and bleed him for alimony than to hit the gym.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Demeter October 27, 2009 at 19:30

Erin was always a large person. She actually has lost weight in the last year. He married her when she was heavy, so it’s not like she has become, as many of you put it, “a fat cow.” She was a “fat cow” before, if that’s they way you want to express it. I think the real issue is that nerdie Steve got wealthy–which is a huge aphrodisiac for many women–and now has the ability to bed his choice of physically attractive women so his wife and kids are no longer interesting to him. And let’s be honest here, if Erin isn’t your idea of the most attractive woman in the world, Steve certainly isn’t mine!

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 2
kis October 27, 2009 at 19:35

Well… that is sad. How much of it is due to lack of drive, vs. the man simply losing attraction for the unavoidably aging and expanding wife?

Actually, a woman’s sex drive can really ebb after she’s had a couple of kids–especially if she has them close together. After I had my daughter (15 months after my first son), I was 115 lbs and shrinking with every month I breastfed. My sex drive dipped below nil. This wasn’t merely tiredness–I’m pretty sure it was my body’s way of not getting pregnant again until I’d fully recovered. For about six months, the mere thought of sex was nauseating. My ex had to content himself with cuddles and the odd handjob until I started putting weight back on and got my strength back.

The problem is, it’s really easy for a man to get used to not getting any from his wife and just start seeing her as a roommate. I think this is one reason behind Lesbian Bed Death–a woman’s libido depends on being the object of desire, so any period of close proximity but no sex (like illness or injury or stress) can lead to both women feeling undesired and both of their libidos go pffffffft. Even with a man, once he stops thinking of sex with his wife, he stops giving her “the look” or gives up trying to initiate, and all of a sudden what might have been a temporary thing has been dragging on for years.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Seeingisbelieving October 27, 2009 at 20:09

Steve P is basically an unattractive geek. I am sure that he now thinks he is more like a rock star because he can ‘buy’ love from young girls who are only after his money. As a woman, I am repelled by him. He has weirdo vibe emanating from him.

I feel sorry for his wife Erin who is a very kind heart and is now being talked about as if she is an animal. How cruel to experience the rejection of your husband and then the meanness of jaded men.

Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 32 Thumb down 2
zed October 27, 2009 at 20:12

a woman’s libido depends on being the object of desire

That is really odd, considering how much women bitch about men desiring them. And, the current rape hysteria also has a real chilling effect on a man’s desire.

It really does seem to me that most women really don’t want to be wanted.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5
Oh Dear October 27, 2009 at 20:42

This piece is pretty hateful – it’s on a par with the kind of slanderous, bigoted, cruel drivel you might find on celebrity gossip sites.

Is this your idea of masculine power? If this post is indicative of the material being put out by men’s movements, no wonder the response is limp.

Hint: powerful men don’t bitch about people, let alone people they don’t even know.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2
kis October 27, 2009 at 20:45

That is really odd, considering how much women bitch about men desiring them. And, the current rape hysteria also has a real chilling effect on a man’s desire.

It really does seem to me that most women really don’t want to be wanted.

What I meant to say was “women’s libido largely depends on being the object of desire for the one they desire.” And, as always, it doesn’t depend *completely* on that–a woman with a decent sense of herself as a sexual being doesn’t need anyone to be lusting after her to feel horny. But yeah, a desirous gaze from someone you’d like to get it from is the wellspring of libido for many many women.

Men often complain that their wives don’t want sex anymore after they’re married. But there’s often a subtle shift in men, too, after they get comfortable in a relationship. He stops giving his woman that desirous gaze. He doesn’t have to anymore because, you know, he’s already got her. Then you get into bed after looking at her like a roommate all day and wonder why she’s not in the mood–when you could have warmed her up with one long, slow, burning glance from head to toe, then back up again, earlier in the day. A lot easier, and probably more successful, than trying to rev her up from cold once the lights are out.

As for this Steve Pavlina, yup, he seems like a geek whose wallet is the alpha. They were probably fairly well matched when they first married, especially if she had a good personality. Who knew he’d end up with access to the upper 20%?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 21:03

@Oh Dear

Hint: powerful men don’t bitch about people, let alone people they don’t even know.

lol. We are well-acquainted with shaming language here, dearie. Your above statement is a flat out lie, anyway. Powerful men bitch about people all the time. Didn’t BHO go off on Rush Limbaugh?

Steve Pavlina, with his high-handed advice that people engage in “polyamory” is 100% fair game here. Let’s see how this all plays out for the man.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
zed October 27, 2009 at 21:07

What I meant to say was “women’s libido largely depends on being the object of desire for the one they desire.”

Good grief, you just validated most of what the writers about Game have been preaching.

Boy, it’s a real Mexican standoff, isn’t it? She goes out of her way to impress on him how little she wants him, so he stops wanting her as much, which makes her want him even less, which makes him want her even less. They can both point fingers and lay blame, and all that does is speed up the downward spiral.

Ever read “The Gift of the Magi” by O. Henry?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
cayalx October 27, 2009 at 21:28

Well, when you run up a high 6 figure income as a blogger, I guess it’s hard not to become a victim of hubris. Steve Pavlina is a very talented writer, and seems to know a lot about what it takes to run a successful blog – the proof is in the pudding. Thus, I’m not surprised that Welmer (smart blogger that he is himself) had been following him and picked up on this. I’ve been following Pavlina for a few years, as I enjoyed many things he had to say. I stopped paying much attention when he started going on his polyamory kick. I could no longer resonate with the guy. Hopefully he won’t be another victim of the family courts, but this might put his whole “positive thinking” vibe to a real test if things get patchy.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 27, 2009 at 21:53

Hopefully he won’t be another victim of the family courts, but this might put his whole “positive thinking” vibe to a real test if things get patchy.

-cayalx

Yes, I’ve been following Pavlina for some time. The guy has real, undeniable talent. He was one of the pioneers of the “personal improvement” blogging genre, which has been the big blogging moneymaker for a while now. However, I think it’s time for online publishing to grow up, and Pavlina’s snake-oil model may be a casualty of his own lifestyle and advice.

We’ll see. Personally, I hope that online content evolves into something a little more serious, but here I am writing about Pavlina, so maybe I should watch out for hypocrisy myself!
:)

Whatever the case, you’ve got to go with what works, and Pavlina was very, very good at that. So for that, at least, I have a good deal of respect for the guy.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
kis October 27, 2009 at 22:22

Good grief, you just validated most of what the writers about Game have been preaching.

Boy, it’s a real Mexican standoff, isn’t it? She goes out of her way to impress on him how little she wants him, so he stops wanting her as much, which makes her want him even less, which makes him want her even less. They can both point fingers and lay blame, and all that does is speed up the downward spiral.

Well, I never said Game was bogus or anything. I think it can be a tool like any other–you can use it to build something nice, or you can use it to smash car windshields as you walk down the street.

It is a Mexican standoff, and a lot of times a woman’s natural decline in sex drive (not a problem for some women, but many suffer from it) immediately following kids is the starting point. I mean, it’s not healthy for a woman to have a kid a year–no matter what Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar might want you to believe. When we were troglodytes, the only birth control available was keeping your legs together. Your body will do it for you with a dampening of female sex drive and women sometimes ceasing to care how they present themselves.

But it can be resurrected. When I had that issue, I finally got up the nerve to just tell him honestly, “Honey, I love you. I don’t know what’s wrong with me, but the thought of having sex just makes me want to curl up and cry. It’s not you. My body’s just dead. I can’t even watch kissing scenes in movies.”

We sat down and talked about what to do, decided there were ways we could please him while my body sorted itself out, and that he should spend a little time every day cuddling me and whispering in my ear the way I liked without pressuring me for more. About six months later, the growly, whispery voice against my neck started to work again, and we were back at it.

But you can’t get past the Mexican standoff if you don’t understand what you’re dealing with or if you’re all about blame and nagging. The wrong approach from either party–yeah, it just makes everything worse.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1
Cory Aidenman October 28, 2009 at 02:45

Interesting article…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Krauser October 28, 2009 at 03:17

I cringe at how beta he is. I’m not surprised she’s leaving and taking him to the cleaners.

Note I think she is a disgrace for doing so. But no surprise. I hope he doesn’t get too badly raped in court.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 06:25

women’s libido largely depends on being the object of desire for the one they desire.

I get turned on by the idea that he wants me. Why is that a problem and what does that have to do with Game? Isn’t that just natural?

a lot of times a woman’s natural decline in sex drive (not a problem for some women, but many suffer from it) immediately following kids is the starting point. But it can be resurrected.

That was when we turned into veritable roommates. Took a while to climb back from that abyss but now we’re back to normal.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 06:27

Although my husband’s sex drive took a dive during and immediately after the pregnancies. I was often in the hospital for weeks and months at a time, he was exhausted and stressed out, and they both had TERRIBLE colic.

Now they go to bed at 8pm and the evening is ours. Heh, heh, heh.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 06:30

Sorry for another post but I just had a thought:

Kis, do you think it could be age-related? We both married young, reproduced early and quickly, and then went back to normal. I can imagine it’s much more difficult if the woman is 35, spends years getting pregnant, etc.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 28, 2009 at 06:49

But you can’t get past the Mexican standoff if you don’t understand what you’re dealing with or if you’re all about blame and nagging. The wrong approach from either party–yeah, it just makes everything worse.

This is why I think feminism has been so destructive to relationships. Now that “the personal is political and the political is personal” there are a huge number of outside influences which intrude into personal relationships – bringing in blame and nagging from the culture outside even if the two people directly involved don’t engage in it.

Look at the way some guys are ripping on the guy’s (soon to be) ex-wife. With all the man-bashing in the culture, and the hostility from and exploitation by women, she makes a convenient target for what Seeingisbelieving above calls “jaded men.” The blame and nag cycle has moved outside of individual relationships and now takes place at the cultural level.

Yes, men are very jaded these days. And, anyone who cannot see and understand why, obviously does not have two brain cells to rub together. Men are beginning to form a consciousness of “Team Men” and any time a member of Team Woman takes a hit, a cheer is beginning to go up from the crowd.

Is this what women really want – to so completely alienate men that men start to enjoy it when a woman gets clobbered?

I think the most significant aspect of your approach is that you are the one who made the first overtures. You seem to have actually wanted to do something about the problem, and to have actually cared about your husband. You took the first steps.

Yes, Game is a tool. It can also be used as a weapon. It can be used in Long Term Relationships, like Dave from Hawaii does, or it can be used to exploit women and sleep with as many as possible, like Roissy uses it.

I think that how men choose to use it will depend on whether or not they see women as the enemy. And feminism has forced a lot of men to see women, or Team Woman, as the enemy. Of course this will just perpetuate the blame and nag cycle as young women reach the end of their most fertile and attractive years having been repeatedly pumped and dumped and with no decent prospective mates on their radar.

I have no idea whether women have any interest in salvaging relationships at the political level. I believe that it is certainly in their long term best interests for women to at least try, because the poisoning of the political interaction between men and women also poisons their personal relationships.

As some men get used to seeing their wives as sexless roomates and quit initiating sex, at the cultural level men have been forced to see women in general as sexless co-workers – under penalty of a Sexual Harassment action and possible loss of career if they don’t – and quit initiating relationships with them. This, of course, throws the entire courtship dynamic out of balance. Most women are waiting around for men to make the first move, and most men have been convinced that women hate sex and will clobber them with a lawsuit if they do.

This sets up a filter which pretty much guarantees that the only men who are approaching women any more are the ones who have no interest in those women beyond sex, don’t actually see them as human beings, and don’t care about them in the slightest degree – the Roissy types.

Just as you were the one who took the step to pull your marriage out of its downward cycle toward bed death, I think it will have have to be women who make the first move to pull the culture out of its collective downward cycle toward bed-death-except-for-pump-and-dump.

As you pointed out, once a man gets used to looking at his wife as a sexless roomate, it can become a habit. Likewise, if Team Men gets used to looking at women in general as sexless creatures who can nonetheless take them to the cleaners in divorce court, they are certainly not going to be giving women “the look” that turns them on – particularly if the feminists have their way and get the “male gaze” criminalized as “visual rape.”

It does women in general no good for the occasional odd woman to come onto a man’s board and gloat about what a great sex life her husband or boyfriend has (B&G). First of all, it’s none of our business. Strictly speaking that is between a woman and her husband, and spreading their business all of the internet is a form of emotional betrayal. Second, it simply makes most other women look like even worse jerks than men already see them as. And, third, it comes across as “I got mine, (gloat, gloat, gloat) the rest of you can go pound sand!”

Some of us have been hoping, and working, for a long time for more balanced relationships between men and women. But, as you pointed out, kis, both sides have to want that and work at it.

Guys started coming up with and using Game because women gave no indication at all that they wanted better relationships – just that they were going to take the advantage they already had and constantly scream for more.

If a world full of Roissys is not what they want for their daughters, and being ripped on like this guy’s wife is not what they want for their own futures, they had better get about expressing some genuine concern for men and make some overtures to indicate that they understand men’s side of the issues and actually want to work toward a resolution.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
zed October 28, 2009 at 06:51

I get turned on by the idea that he wants me. Why is that a problem and what does that have to do with Game? Isn’t that just natural?

Do some internet research on “the male gaze” and “visual rape.” Damn straight it is “a problem”, a lot of women are working to criminalize even that aspect of men desiring women.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Jeff October 28, 2009 at 07:10

Insightful article, there are definately some lessons to be learned, i suggest any of his “followers” read Mike Kemskis Banabu principles if they are interested in true and straight personal development, Practice what you preach

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 07:13

It does women in general no good for the occasional odd woman to come onto a man’s board and gloat about what a great sex life her husband or boyfriend has (B&G). First of all, it’s none of our business. Strictly speaking that is between a woman and her husband, and spreading their business all of the internet is a form of emotional betrayal. Second, it simply makes most other women look like even worse jerks than men already see them as. And, third, it comes across as “I got mine, (gloat, gloat, gloat) the rest of you can go pound sand!”

Hm. Hadn’t thought of it this way. I thought it more as giving an example where it does work out well. For what it’s worth, though, my husband is well aware of what I’ve written. He couldn’t care less. But since it annoys you, I’ll refrain from mentioning it any more.

Do some internet research on “the male gaze” and “visual rape.” Damn straight it is “a problem”, a lot of women are working to criminalize even that aspect of men desiring women.

Not even going to check it out because even the words sound like a bunch of silly feminist garbage. Waste of my time.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 07:15

Does this mean that sex as a subject is off-limits unless it’s men discussing getting laid with nameless sluts? It would only be fair, you know.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
zed October 28, 2009 at 07:17

Do some internet research on “the male gaze” and “visual rape.” Damn straight it is “a problem”, a lot of women are working to criminalize even that aspect of men desiring women.

Not even going to check it out because even the words sound like a bunch of silly feminist garbage. Waste of my time.

See, there is the problem with a lot of women’s attitudes – “you got yours” so becoming aware of the political issues affecting a whole lot of other people are a “waste of your time.”

A lot of people’s lives today are profoundly affected by “silly feminist garbage.” If you don’t care about them, then don’t be surprised if they don’t care about you if some of that “silly feminist garbage” intrudes into your life some day.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Rollory October 28, 2009 at 07:21

Globalman is full of crap and anybody who tries following his advice will live to regret it. It’s on the same level as “there is no legal requirement to pay income tax”.

Comments about writing to the national AG and getting together 12 people to form a jury outside of the usual system and so on is very typical crackpottery. All it does is annoy the judges momentarily before they instruct the local law enforcement to proceed with enforcement.

The bottom line is, regardless of what kinds of fancy arguments you come up with, the cops and the judges and the prisons and the people who pay the taxes that keep all this stuff running have their own view, and they enforce it with guns, and people like Globalman will be simply considered amusing entertainment for the screams as they get steamrolled.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 07:22

If you don’t care about them, then don’t be surprised if they don’t care about you if some of that “silly feminist garbage” intrudes into your life some day.

Oh, come on. Nobody is going to legislate staring. Now you’ve just gone off on a tangent.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Fred Kite October 28, 2009 at 07:25

On her own blog erin pavlina claims to be a psychic. Should have seen all this coming.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
zed October 28, 2009 at 07:32

Nobody is going to legislate staring. Now you’ve just gone off on a tangent.

You live under a rock. Most Sexual Harassment cases these days are about a woman claiming that a man “makes her feel uncomfortable.”

However, in terms of how “silly feminist garbage” can intrude into your life – there was a recent case in which a woman took some photos of her children in the bathtub to Wal-Mart to be printed. A Wal-Mart employee reported them for “kiddie porn” and CPS swooped in and took the kids and placed them in foster care. (I’m sure some reader here has a link.) I think that the parents still haven’t gotten them back.

Hiding your head in the sand does not make the problems go away, B&G. It just guarantees that you won’t see them coming when they blindside you. And, dismissing them in such a cavalier manner, assures that no one will care any more than you do if something like this ever happens to you.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 07:36

Zed,

Hmmm… I was thinking about your comment above again. Sounds like sour grapes, to me.

At first I really liked this blog because it seemed like you were discussing REAL issues: paternity rights, protecting our sons from anti-male bias, fair divorce laws, father-son bonding, improving the quality of marriages, chastity, modesty, and fidelity. But, although some are, most really are just misogynists who want to come on here and bitch about how women are all whores, how we are all stupid, and how you can protect yourselves from our evil ways while getting laid.

What a turn off! Am I really the ONLY happily married person on this entire blog? If this is just a pity-me and hate-woman party, then you are right: I don’t belong here and my comments are only irritating and superfluous.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 28, 2009 at 07:39

You live under a rock. Most Sexual Harassment cases these days are about a woman claiming that a man “makes her feel uncomfortable.”

The closest I’ve ever come to being accused of it was when this one rather unattractive, strange girl, to whom I never paid any attention, started complaining about what I said in a classroom in college. She suggested that my opinions were sexual harassment! I’ve had plenty of other girls/women complain about my opinions (usually to my detriment when a female professor was teaching), but none had ever suggested that before.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 07:44

You live under a rock. Most Sexual Harassment cases these days are about a woman claiming that a man “makes her feel uncomfortable.”

However, in terms of how “silly feminist garbage” can intrude into your life – there was a recent case in which a woman took some photos of her children in the bathtub to Wal-Mart to be printed. A Wal-Mart employee reported them for “kiddie porn” and CPS swooped in and took the kids and placed them in foster care. (I’m sure some reader here has a link.) I think that the parents still haven’t gotten them back.

That isn’t about feminism that is about American puritanical prudery, social hysteria, and their obsession with suing people over every stupid thing. That is why there are warning labels on candles here and why breastfeeding in public is considered indecent. Americans are just sick in the head and perverted. These are the same people who have daughters engaging in anal sex in order to “preserve their virginity”.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
zed October 28, 2009 at 08:29

most really are just misogynists who want to come on here and bitch about how women are all whores, how we are all stupid, and how you can protect yourselves from our evil ways while getting laid.

Yes, indeed, B&G, we truly are all misogynists now. There was even a huge thread about that recently. Apparently you didn’t learn from that how much immunity we have developed to that inane and lame accusation.

This is not a blog for “happily married women” to come and chat away their days and play the “I want attention from men which is safe” game.

It is called “The Spearhead: Piercing the Shield of Ignorance” for a reason – we are going to pierce that shield no matter how many women like you show up and try to pretend that everything is hunky-dory in marriageville and everything we say here is just “sour grapes” and try to preserve your ignorance of the real situation facing most people now.

Guys like globalman and few others will simply dismiss all women. I take a different tack – attempting to show by rational argument and discussion that these are real issues. The fact that I do so in a calm and rational manner and get no better results, in fact usually get exactly the same results, serves as an object lesson to the men reading about what strategy they might want to adopt.

Now, as far as men “protecting themselves from women’s evil ways while getting laid” – that is exactly what a lot of younger men want to do. And, when they see how my approach of treating women as rational human beings fails – as it has with you – they will draw their own conclusions.

As I have said a couple of times, B&G, we are entering the next phase of the gender war. I’m what a guy who has been in the thick of it for 40 years looks like. Roissy is what a younger man just entering it looks like. Both should give women pause to ask themselves if they really want to see it go on.

I would like to see it brought to an end, so that young women don’t have mostly guys like him in their pool of potential mates. But, in order to do that men have to get women’s cooperation.

Given your response to my approach, I know which way I will bet on what the future will look like for your daughters.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4
clarence October 28, 2009 at 08:38

Yes, it’s always nice to have one hang around awhile and then leave in a huff claiming all the guys are misogynists because a few are and they are allowed to speak. But like you, Welmer, I’ve found it doesn’t matter. Even if one kisses their bottoms and is nothing but polite, eventually a political position will be taken that offends a given woman to such an extent that she runs screaming into the hills, usually trailing a cry of “misogynist” or something behind her. It doesn’t even have to be YOUR position, after all it is obvious that the contributers at the SpearHead while basically agreeing with what the problems ARE, is all over the place in trying to solve them, from downright misogynistic messages, to downright egalitarian political philosophies.

This after all, isn’t a political issues blog.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
clarence October 28, 2009 at 08:38

Mistake:

I meant to say political activism blog.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 09:09

I never said I thought “all men are misogynists” but that most, or at least many, of the posters here are. You can ignore that distinction if it makes you feel better.

Zed, you are quite right. I need to get off the damn computer. I’ve been on it much too much lately and am in danger of neglecting my duties. Although I will continue to occasionally go read some of Hestia and Novaseeker’s stuff because it’s so interesting and well written, even if I don’t always agree with it.

No more frivolous posts from moi to dilute the anger many of the rest of you are schlepping around. Enjoy it and wallow in it at your leisure. I’m just glad to be married to a man who is neither putting women on pedestals nor so cynical as you but rather has a healthy and realistic view of women as fallible human beings.

Now, if you don’t mind, I will return to my own little world and relish cleaning a toilet and playing with my toddler today. Talk amongst yourselves.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
Fiercely Independent John Nada October 28, 2009 at 09:28

Black&German October 28, 2009 at 9:09 am
No more frivolous posts from moi to dilute the anger many of the rest of you are schlepping around. Enjoy it and wallow in it at your leisure. I’m just glad to be married to a man who is neither putting women on pedestals nor so cynical as you but rather has a healthy and realistic view of women as fallible human beings.

***sighs.***
I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it again:
When all is said and done, EMF has the choke sunk deeper on 1st World Females than Gracie family Jiu Jitsu. This generation and the next 2 are burnt like Roman Meal toast.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Rollory October 28, 2009 at 09:47

” I need to get off the damn computer”

It’s about damn time. You’ve been monopolizing every thread on here, to no particular benefit.

Yes, please: Shut Up.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5
kis October 28, 2009 at 09:50

As I have said a couple of times, B&G, we are entering the next phase of the gender war. I’m what a guy who has been in the thick of it for 40 years looks like. Roissy is what a younger man just entering it looks like. Both should give women pause to ask themselves if they really want to see it go on.

I just don’t know what individual women are supposed to do to bring about real change–other than converting one soul at a time. I have a mentor relationship with a young woman (she’s adopted me as her mother, because her own mother sucks eggs), and I’ve been trying to instill a sense of honor in her, both in her dealings with men and with the world in general. She’s coming around slowly but surely. I’ve dealt fairly–more than fairly–with my ex and will continue to do so. I try to raise my sons and daughter to follow their common sense and reject all the BS hurled at them by the media and the education system–whether that means questioning global warming, acknowledging the reverse Darwinism of the social safety net, or rejecting feminist principles that are not firmly based on real equality.

But just as this is not an activism blog, I’m not an activist. I’m not going to be organizing rallies on the steps of courthouses and legislatures. There’s only so much I can do, so I concentrate my efforts on the things I can accomplish.

Maybe B&G should start a marital sex advice blog?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Puma October 28, 2009 at 10:10

Kis -
The best thing you can do is to prepare your own son for today’s world so that he doesn’t fall into any of the institutionalized man-traps that are set up to enslave him.

If that’s the only thing you do, then you’ve done your job in the greater scheme of things.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4
Jim October 28, 2009 at 10:14

One big problem is that men expect too much from women. They expect them to be rational, and to be able to be an independent part of a solution.

Boys mature more slowly than girls. Their physical and mental growth continues until around the age of 25, at which time they are capable of being in control of their environment and of their women (which includes taking care of her emotional needs).

Girls mature much faster than boys, until they complete puberty, and then most remain there emotionally and mentally, forever.

So whenever you feel the urge to give power to a woman, or to get angry because one is acting like Black&German, just remember that you are probably dealing with a fourteen year old girl.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7
zed October 28, 2009 at 10:15

I just don’t know what individual women are supposed to do to bring about real change–other than converting one soul at a time

Well, there’s a couple of things they can start with – lose the hissy fits and the accusations of “misogyny” or “sour grapes.” If women aren’t willing to admit that the issues we talk about here are legitimate, then they are part of the problem.

Second, this is not a married woman’s Koffee Klatch. Men are going to control the dialogue here and the framing. If women can’t stand the heat, then they can get back in the kitchen.

Third, is to not come in here playing the “mythical wonderful wife” and indirectly bragging about how good your current, or ex, husband has/had it. That is profoundly annoying and will eventually get a woman shown the door.

A fourth thing, which most women won’t have the guts to do, is instead of hanging out among men playing attention-whore without any real risk, is to go over onto Feminist blogs and take on the bitches on their home turf.

Here’s the deal, kis. I have said a couple of times that the internet gives “us” the chance to seize control of the Dialectic. So far the Powers That Be have set up the framing as men against women. Feminism was the first stage, with women being hoodwinked into thinking that they were paid less, oppressed out of wonderful “careers”, and all that. The second stage was then women against men – Team Woman out to grab all they could in a zero sum game and take everything they could get, leaving nothing on the table for men.

We have the chance to exit the dialectic and for those women and men who are sick of the gender war, sick of both sides using and beating up each other, and who really would like to reach the point where decent relationships were a possibility for the majority of people, to join forces and tell the PTB to pound sand – that we are NOT going to continue to be played off against each other.

Is it possible? I have no idea. But, I would a whole lot rather see that than for an ever growing number of men to become like Roissy and Globalman and take the position “use them before they can use you.”

“Activism” is no longer the issue. The time window when that could have worked is closed. Everyone has moved on to more of a survival mode.

Feminism is no longer just men’s problem, it is women’s problem now. Women are poised to become the majority of the workforce, are already raising the majority of the children, and within a year or two currently married women will become the minority.

Maybe B&G should start a marital sex advice blog?

That would be a great idea. It would be a whole lot more productive for her than to continue to hang out here and bore and annoy the rest of us.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
kis October 28, 2009 at 10:26

A fourth thing, which most women won’t have the guts to do, is instead of haning out among men playing attention-whore without any real risk, is to go over onto Feminist blogs and take on the bitches on their home turf.

I’ve never been to one. Having seen how women behave when they get together with a collective whipping boy to focus their hostility on, I just…yeah. It’s a lack of guts, certainly. It says something that as a woman I feel more comfortable speaking my mind here than among other women. Though I think that’s as much a function of the fact that I agree with most of what you guys have to say, and that certainly won’t be the case at a feminist site.

I’ll go check some of those places out, though. I have the feeling that I’ll have to get in the philosophical decon chamber and scrub with some lye and a wire brush after, though.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
zed October 28, 2009 at 10:36

Having seen how women behave when they get together with a collective whipping boy to focus their hostility on, I just…yeah. It’s a lack of guts, certainly. It says something that as a woman I feel more comfortable speaking my mind here than among other women.

OK, here is the problem, kis. Yes, a woman will usually get treated much better on any men’s board, even one like this with a lot of really pissed off guys, than anyone arguing against the feminist party line will get treated on a feminist board.

Then, when women start arguing with us advocating the position of “Team Woman” and giving the appearance of attempting to refute anything we say, we feel like they are abusing and imposing on our hospitality and civility.

You have done it dozens of times. Instead of starting with a simple conversationsal lubricant like “I see your point”, women tend to launch into a lengthy explanation/refutation of a point a man has just made. If they ever get around to acknowledging the point at all, it is generally buried among so much other verbiage that most guys have simply crossed their eyes and tuned the woman out.

So, if you aren’t willing to fight our cause on our side, at least shut up and don’t come in here and fight us and give the appearance of being on the side of “the enemy.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3
kis October 28, 2009 at 11:16

You have done it dozens of times. Instead of starting with a simple conversationsal lubricant like “I see your point”, women tend to launch into a lengthy explanation/refutation of a point a man has just made.

That’s certainly true. But then again, I see disagreements here between some of the men that follow the same pattern. I think my assumption in a discussion is that if you’re only refuting one aspect of a post, you’re tacitly in agreement with, or see the point of, the rest of it–but yes, conversational lubricants are a good idea. I should use them more.

I didn’t realize I came off as fighting you guys. Because I’m really not. I’m in agreement with 90+% of what men like you and Novaseeker and Welmer have to say. I’m dismayed by the PUA movement, but I understand why it exists.

I think B&G has been trying to demonstrate that there are women out there who embrace the traditional view of marriage and a woman’s role in it, and that they’re generally happier within that role, so I can see why she’d be offended by the assertion that she’s boring and annoying you. I mean, if she’s the quintessential “good wife” many of you say is preferable to the modern alternative, and you find her boring and annoying…well, that’s gotta sting. I really do think she should start that advice blog–because I think she has a lot to teach women (and their men) about maintaining a healthy sex life.

And me, I think it could maybe benefit men to realize that even women who don’t espouse feminist ideals are hurt by feminism–that we’re burdened with different problems, but we’re still burdened. And that we’re kind of stuck, just the way you are, and trying to cope long enough to dig our way out from under it.

If nothing else, being part of these discussions has opened my eyes to a whole host of ideas as to how inextricably feminism is interwoven with shit that’s been going down since before the Industrial Revolution. It’s made me realize the part I directly, and feminism indirectly, played in the downfall of my marriage–which is shit I’ll go out of my way not to repeat next time. I’ve learned a lot, and I thank you guys for that.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
Hestia October 28, 2009 at 11:24

OK, here is the problem, kis. Yes, a woman will usually get treated much better on any men’s board, even one like this with a lot of really pissed off guys, than anyone arguing against the feminist party line will get treated on a feminist board.
This is sadly true. I used to go to Feministing to debate the feminazis there, under my Livejournal username as I knew there was no way on earth they would have listened to me had I linked to my old blog. ;) All of the comments I left were respectful, linking to studies/facts that refuted the points made, and were on topic, yet I was banned from commenting after only three comments. The three that were allowed wound up in flamewars rather than true debate and I was advised I was a “tool of the patriarchy” and “couldn’t see through my brainwashing”.

I’d add in “real life” debating with feminists has been just as nasty, resulting in a longtime acquaintance declaring me the “anti-feminist anti-christ” and refusing to speak to me afterward. The topics that brought up this issue were very innocent: my declaring male circumcision is harmful and that boys are discriminated against in the school system. She was stating info to the contrary and I couldn’t sit by, say nothing, and let these lies spread yet again.

Despite these experiences, I still believe it is worth is to try to educate women about men’s issues, as there might be a few minds that are opened, but there are many women who are too far gone and selfish to really care. This is distressing in general, but particularly when the women in question are or could be wives and/or mothers to sons.

If you go to a feminist blog, kis, just remember they don’t you and any of their psycho insults mean nothing. This was difficult for me at first, but after having written a blog that had a large following as my old one did, I’ve grown thicker skin and don’t care as much as I once did. Conversations offline still freak me out a little, but I’m finding with time speaking up becomes easier to do and more people start to at least consider my points the more I find “my voice.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Puma October 28, 2009 at 11:29

Feminists will burn their bras, but never their alimony court-orders. Funny how that works.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 28, 2009 at 11:30

kis

I tried the same thing as Hestia, and was erased and banned faster than it took me to write a simple question, -put in the nicest possible way !!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Hestia October 28, 2009 at 11:37

My “debates” with feminists have led me to believe that a new feminist slogan is in order:

Feminism: The Radical Notion That Only Those Who Agree With Us Are Human Too

This slogan would fit perfectly, IMHO!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
kis October 28, 2009 at 11:45

Despite these experiences, I still believe it is worth is to try to educate women about men’s issues, as there might be a few minds that are opened, but there are many women who are too far gone and selfish to really care.

That’s the thing. There’s no converting–or even instilling a healthy doubt–in those who are zealots. For women who hang out on feminist blogs, they’re already so entrenched within their ideology that only a “Saint Paul conversion moment” can have a hope of opening their eyes. That may come in the form of a woman reaming their son in divorce court or a brother being falsely accused of rape–it certainly isn’t going to come by someone like me trying to reason with them. Although I’m game to try. Now where’d I put my kevlar jacket?

Individual success is more likely to come from talking to women whose minds are not yet sealed shut–my daughter and her friends, and the young woman I’ve mentored, for instance. But it’s a slow process winning over one heart at a time. Especially since the other side has such a huge headstart.

Maybe I should start a blog?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 28, 2009 at 11:46

I didn’t realize I came off as fighting you guys. Because I’m really not.

That’s why I told you, kis. I’m sure you are aware of different cultural meanings to certain kinds of behaviors. There is a “woman culture” and a “man culture” and some of the things which are normal in each culture are obnoxious in the other.

One very clear point is going to get made here – women (feminists, mostly) have absolutely controlled the dialog for the past 40 years – by doing things like calling us “misogynists” and dismissing our legitimate issues as “sour grapes.” Pull that shit here, and you are going to get clobbered. Men are going to control the dialog and framing here on the Spearhead, and any woman who doesn’t like that needs to shut up and go fuck her husband. And, to not let the door hit her on the ass on the way out.

The difference between you and women like B&G is that you get it, and can get it, if we keep at you long enough. That is why I’ve been investing the time and energy in you that I have. Some guys will just dismiss women as “children”, but I give women the chance to demontrate that they really are the enemy before I write them off.

I think my assumption in a discussion is that if you’re only refuting one aspect of a post, you’re tacitly in agreement with, or see the point of, the rest of it–but yes, conversational lubricants are a good idea. I should use them more.

Since when does “agreement” start with “no, you’re wrong”?!?!?! Jeez, and I thought that women were supposed to be the “communication experts.” ;)

I think B&G has been trying to demonstrate that there are women out there who embrace the traditional view of marriage and a woman’s role in it, and that they’re generally happier within that role, so I can see why she’d be offended by the assertion that she’s boring and annoying you. I mean, if she’s the quintessential “good wife” many of you say is preferable to the modern alternative, and you find her boring and annoying…well, that’s gotta sting.

You have to bear in mind that –
1) There are damn few “good wives” out there and damn few men who have one. If the tables were turned, and a lot of divorced and single women like you had a man come in the midst and constantly be bragging about how good his wife had it, would that be great to hear, or would it feel like he was rubbing something in your face that another woman has and you don’t?
2) Not all of us are “traditionalists.” The days when an average man could support a wife to stay at home are long gone. The number of people – both men and women – who believe in the traditional breadwinner role for men is down to about 40%. She’s cheerleading for lifestyle which is dead as the dinosaurs for most people.

I think it could maybe benefit men to realize that even women who don’t espouse feminist ideals are hurt by feminism–that we’re burdened with different problems, but we’re still burdened. And that we’re kind of stuck, just the way you are, and trying to cope long enough to dig our way out from under it.

Some of us have known all along that feminism was going to hurt women more than it would men. Our response is – “tough shit, sweetcheeks, suck it up and take it like the man that the feminists have been claiming you wanted to be.”

The biggest problem all along has been that there has been absolutely no countervoice from women to feminist BS. Silence is assent, and so many men just assumed that all women went along with feminism – until they started to read the fine print. The only women at all who have said one damn thing positive about men have been the ultra-traditionalists like Phyllis Schlafly. The problem with her for basically progressive men is that she wants to keep men trapped in the old roles, even while our ability to live up to them is being destroyed. Ask Hestia about “Right Wing Feminism” versus “Left Wing Feminism.” Both sides of women want to use and exploit men and keep us as their slaves, and the only thing they seem to disagree about is what is the best way to go about this.

Nowhere in the culture anywhere do men see any message or indication that women actually like them, or have much use for them. Remember that “the personal is political, and the political is personal” and politics is destroying people’s ability to have purely personal relationships.

There is nothing a woman can do which is more self-sabotaging than to go onto a men’s board and appear to be arguing for “Team Woman.”

No, we really don’t hate women, but you do annoy the crap out of us at times. We have been listening to women’s opinions, whining, complaints, and anger non-stop for 40 years, and, contrary to the common female conceit – not all of us are just dying to hear one more woman’s opinion about anything.

If nothing else, being part of these discussions has opened my eyes to a whole host of ideas as to how inextricably feminism is interwoven with shit that’s been going down since before the Industrial Revolution. It’s made me realize the part I directly, and feminism indirectly, played in the downfall of my marriage–which is shit I’ll go out of my way not to repeat next time. I’ve learned a lot, and I thank you guys for that.

And that is why I have invested as much time and energy in you as I have.

Responsibility is power. If you understand the part you play in something, that gives you the power to do things differently and not feel like a helpless victim of forces all around you and “teh Patriarchy.”

I want women to get it. I want men and women to be able have satisfying relationships which they enjoy. But, men can’t do this all by themselves, they need women as partners.

I’ll return the thanks and say “thank you for learning.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Black&German October 28, 2009 at 11:53

Interesting comments. One last post and then I’ll disappear. Really this time.

There’s no point posting on feminist blogs. I’ve posted numerous times to politely refute things they have said or to comment on their logic/rhetoric and none of my posts have ever even shown up. One thing I’m absolutely not lacking is guts. Humility perhaps, discretion maybe, but not gumption.

I think B&G has been trying to demonstrate that there are women out there who embrace the traditional view of marriage and a woman’s role in it, and that they’re generally happier within that role, so I can see why she’d be offended by the assertion that she’s boring and annoying you. I mean, if she’s the quintessential “good wife” many of you say is preferable to the modern alternative, and you find her boring and annoying…well, that’s gotta sting.

Thank you for pointing that out, Kris. That’s exactly what it is. There are many things I am (and I’m sure you are all eager to continue the discussion of what those things are) but I’ve never actually thought of myself as boring.

I’m not going to bore and annoy you guys anymore but I have taken your advice to heart. I obviously have way too much to say to remain a mere commenter, so I’m taking my verbosity and starting my own blog. Don’t have time to post anything today, though. But check back tomorrow, if you’re interested. And if you’re not, then don’t.

Cheers, and good luck with the MRA stuff. I’m on your side because I think you are right, at least about most things. I’ll be posting a bit about that as well, I’m sure.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 28, 2009 at 11:59

To those complaining about B&G’s behavior (just Zed?):
Your complaint is irrational. If she wants to say things you don’t agree with, or that you think are misleading, let her say them, then correct her. Censorship–whether directly, or through telling some people to shut up–just reduces your credibility.

To B&G:
Yes, you probably are the only happily married woman here (although I understand that Hawaiian Libertarian is doing a decent job saving his marriage). This should not surprise you. Most happily married people (in my experience) fight tooth and nail to avoid any inspection of the state of gender relations in the current Western society–this is sometimes even related to the fact that they remain “happily” married (the phrase “see no evil” comes to mind). The reason some people are unhappy with your parading around the success of your marriage (in addition to the reasons you’ve already heard) is the subconscious assumption made by many that it makes you more of an expert on gender relations than others who have been less successful–this assumption is false, but is heavily ingrained due to its repetition in typical claims that the MRM is just “the whining of a bunch of old, divorced, men.” Your marriage is not, in and of itself, an off-limits topic. But you should understand that continuing to talk about it in the way you did on this thread will make people think (possibly subconsciously) that YOU believe it makes you more of an expert on gender relations than others here. And, while it does provide you with a different and helpful perspective (which I would hate to see snuffed out over something like this), the nature of that perspective means that some care should be made if you want to avoid giving the wrong impression.

To kis, and others on this topic:
I agree with others that approaching women over the issue of men’s rights is important; the only way I ever see the current system changing is if more women decide that feminism is not the answer–like any other group in power throughout history, it can only lose power by willingly giving it up, or having it taken by force (and I’d really rather avoid the latter).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
21Guns October 28, 2009 at 12:05

Allrighty.
Off to get banned from Jezebel again. Back later.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
zed October 28, 2009 at 12:07

Allrighty.
Off to get banned from Jezebel again. Back later

.

YOU GO, Grrl!!!! :D

(once more, into the breech…)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Doug1 October 28, 2009 at 12:10

Kis–

But it can be resurrected. When I had that issue, I finally got up the nerve to just tell him honestly, “Honey, I love you. I don’t know what’s wrong with me, but the thought of having sex just makes me want to curl up and cry. It’s not you. My body’s just dead. I can’t even watch kissing scenes in movies.”

We sat down and talked about what to do, decided there were ways we could please him while my body sorted itself out, and that he should spend a little time every day cuddling me and whispering in my ear the way I liked without pressuring me for more. About six months later, the growly, whispery voice against my neck started to work again, and we were back at it.

I suspect you would have felt like full on intercourse and oral sex with your husband if you’d just done it despite not feeling much like it out of a sense of duty – to begin with. Of course I’m not talking about right after birth. I’m talking after your body has largely recovered but your sex drive is still low to none. As I believe Black&German said, the more sex a woman does the more she wants. I’m also talking about a man gentling and seducing and enticing his wife back into it, going slow. But that combo – her sense of duty to him and for the stength of the relationship and his sense of gentling his wife with their infant, could work.

I really doubt that your theory about women not wanting sex for prolonged periods after giving birth as a method of evolved birth control for spacing purposes is correct. Instead it seems that nursing does tend to greatly retard a woman’s fertiliity and often her menstuation/ovulation for a year or more – especially if she’s exclusively breast feeding with no formula supplementation and if she breastfeeds at night.

Since scientist think that a woman’s receptivity to sex though her entire or almost her entire cycle, unlike other female mammals which go into heat and are otherwise totally unreceptive, is a mechanism to induce mate pair bonding, it would be odd indeed if that mechanism were totally squitched off in most women for a year or two after giving birth, when the infant is most in need of her time consuming care and his food and shelter provisioning.

I strongly suspect that women who were concerned about their husband wandering off with another woman, without laws that will claw a huge portion of his resources from him against his will, and support for her and the infant against his will as well with her offering no sex in return, will not only be willing to sex her mate, but soon want to.

Feminism has given women far too much security, extracted from unwilling men, rather than men who the woman needs to convince to want to on an ongoing basis.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
@Black & German October 28, 2009 at 12:11

“But, although some are, most really are just misogynists who want to come on here and bitch about how women are all whores, how we are all stupid, and how you can protect yourselves from our evil ways while getting laid.”

Wow – bullseye. Not to mention the glancing Stormfront-like references to racial issues and IQ tests, etc.

This is why the MRM will continue to fail unless serious changes take place.

Lack of leadership, lack of strategy, and an unwillingness to cast a wide net for those who care about the issues.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Jabherwochie October 28, 2009 at 12:16

I believe we need desenting voices in order for the debate to remain fresh. We need the back and forth. If everyone is always in total agreement, the echo chamber it creates has a tendency to lull you into intellectual complacency, or hypnotize you into little more than part of a hive mind, parroting each other, and never reaching new insights. I understand the frustration of dealing with women here that do not conform to, what I must say, is a somewhat idealistic mold considering the world they developed and exist in, but the value they bring to the evolution of the debate, and the value they bring to the legitimacy of our movement (as being more than just pissed off men), should not go completely unappreciated. Arguing with oneself, playing your own devils advocate, although productive, does not prepare the mind for novel counter debates, as its hard to suprise oneself (although it is possible). (Of course, I’m one of the people who would allow trolls free run here for the most part, unless they spam or something, as I like the drama and the intellectual beatdown they receive. I can’t help but think that something sticks in the back of their mind, even when cognitively they are completely dismissive. Maybe I’m a bit optimistically naive, but repetition has the affect of ingraining ideas into people of weak philosophical substance, so to counter a brainwashed feminist, I believe in simple counter programming, even when it is almost always actively resisted.)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Jabherwochie October 28, 2009 at 12:19

Some of my adjectives above were not well thought out, but I’ll roll with what I said for the most part.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
piercedhead October 28, 2009 at 12:22

I’ve never been to one. Having seen how women behave when they get together with a collective whipping boy to focus their hostility on, I just…yeah. It’s a lack of guts, certainly. It says something that as a woman I feel more comfortable speaking my mind here than among other women. Though I think that’s as much a function of the fact that I agree with most of what you guys have to say, and that certainly won’t be the case at a feminist site.

I suspect most women feel more comfortable speaking their minds amongst men, kis. Other women will be much more hostile if the subject under discussion ventures beyond certain acceptable boundaries (who do you think uses the word ‘acceptable’ more often?)

I’m not sure if this tendency toward silencing dissent originates from a better understanding of the human psyche and how to exploit it to gain power, or is just an extension of the female’s natural greater fearfulness – evident in all advanced species. I suspect the latter is more likely.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Doug1 October 28, 2009 at 12:24

Stirling–

So what, women are supposed to be faithful to their husbands but men can sleep around? Ugg… and I was just agreeing so much with you guys till you put up this filth.

This guy seems to have had an arrangement where they could both sleep with others some, but with rules and veto rights for the spouse. She may have not done so much; that’s what many are assuming here, based on her looks. She could have found guys to sleep with her but probably not guys as alphaish as her husband though his success, and growing into his boyish immature looks, had become. Whatever some women here say, it sure looks like this guy had become lesser alpha at least. Actually, probably that, with his in some ways game, in some ways anti game. (Nice guy pedestaling up the wazoo for example, but also leadership and charisma probably.)

It’s not surprising that she wants a divorce, and I don’t think anyone here thinks it is. I don’t think women should automatically think they need one to maintain self respect etx. if their husband wants to sleep with other women sometimes, as long as he’s still loving and pays attention to his wife (and children of course). After all through most of history women didn’t, especially when their husband was of unusual success or status.

It’s understandable though that a woman demands monogamous fidelity from a beta provider. It’s what she in many ways settled for; it’s one of the saving graces he has to offer in compensation for being less emotionally compelling or thrilling.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
piercedhead October 28, 2009 at 12:32

B&G

Interesting comments. One last post and then I’ll disappear. Really this time.

And then you post another comment less than 20 minutes later. Why should anyone here take anything else you say that seriously?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Arbitrary October 28, 2009 at 12:35

piercedhead, I’m pretty sure @B&G is a different person from B&G.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Doug1 October 28, 2009 at 12:36

Black&German–

But, although some are, most really are just misogynists who want to come on here and bitch about how women are all whores, how we are all stupid, and how you can protect yourselves from our evil ways while getting laid.

Total rubbish.

None of the writers on this blog remotely fit that description. Most of the commenters do not. There are a few commenters that fit some of those charges, but probably non that fit all of them. So what?

The truth is that misandry permeates our media culture. Further feminists have succeeded in getting many people as regarding any criticism of or dissent from feminist tenants as misogyny. E.g. any belief than men and women aren’t the same in any way that doesn’t exalt women over men, i.e. in some area does the opposite to an extent, is automatically misogyny. Well horseplot. Believing that men naturally lead and should do so in attracted and/or bonded pairs, and that some men naturally do and should in civilizations overall may possibly be wrong (I strongly think not) or morally wrong (I’m not a cultural Marxist and I definitely think not), but it’s definitely not misogyny — by any proper or traditional definition of the terms. It’s not hating women.

Hating feminism is not hating women.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Doug1 October 28, 2009 at 12:40

In fact we need much more of what feminists call misogyny proudly and loudly proclaimed by waking up men. That is much more open anti feminism. And also anti traditional pedestaling of women as though they were naturally always or in every way men’s moral exemplars. (I think it’s maybe easier to train women to act more consistently in this way than men, and that used to be done. However I don’t think it’s ever as much the case as men believe, nor is it true in a state of nature. Instead we get female Lord of the Flies” if culture doesn’t make it otherwise. And feminist culture is all about female empowerment at any cost to males and children.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Tupac Chopra October 28, 2009 at 12:43

Zed for President!

(And Novaseeker for V.P.)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Doug1 October 28, 2009 at 12:44

Black&German–

Not to mention the glancing Stormfront-like references to racial issues and IQ tests, etc.

Like what? Quote something you think merits that description.

Going well outside of strict PC on all sorts of issues, all issues really, including those that touch on race and IQ tests does not make someone a Stormfront white supremacity. Yes they do that, usefully very dimly, but so do all realists.

Can you be any more scattershot Black&German?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Doug1 October 28, 2009 at 12:48

zed–

One very clear point is going to get made here – women (feminists, mostly) have absolutely controlled the dialog for the past 40 years – by doing things like calling us “misogynists” and dismissing our legitimate issues as “sour grapes.” Pull that shit here, and you are going to get clobbered. Men are going to control the dialog and framing here on the Spearhead, and any woman who doesn’t like that needs to shut up and go fuck her husband. And, to not let the door hit her on the ass on the way out.

Or else get verbally beaten up here.

Hear hear.

Zed for President seconded!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Arbitrary October 28, 2009 at 12:48

Doug1, I’m pretty sure that quote is from someone else going by the name @Black&German.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 28, 2009 at 12:51

You´ve got my vote too, Zed !!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
kis October 28, 2009 at 12:59

I really doubt that your theory about women not wanting sex for prolonged periods after giving birth as a method of evolved birth control for spacing purposes is correct. Instead it seems that nursing does tend to greatly retard a woman’s fertiliity and often her menstuation/ovulation for a year or more – especially if she’s exclusively breast feeding with no formula supplementation and if she breastfeeds at night.

I exclusively breastfed all my kids for six months, and it was their main food for ten with my first, and longer with the second. Yet less than six months after having the first, I was pregnant with the second. And there are women I know who have children with birthdays in the same calendar year.

Still, my sex drive didn’t take a nosedive until after I had my second. And I really do feel it was a biological response to the burdens two pregnancies in swift succession put on my body. I had to wean my first at ten months because I was pregnant, underweight and still losing. And after nursing my second for three months, I was so skinny my ass had started to sag.

And it wasn’t a decrease in sex drive–it was a complete aversion to sex. I could set it aside for handjobs or oral, but my body’s ability to lubricate had disappeared and I couldn’t have brought myself off even with an afternoon with no distractions and a stack of porn a mile high.

And I do think my case was much more extreme and more prolonged than most women’s. I didn’t start feeling the love again until I was back up to a healthy weight–which happened before I weaned my daughter.

it would be odd indeed if that mechanism were totally squitched off in most women for a year or two after giving birth, when the infant is most in need of her time consuming care and his food and shelter provisioning.

Is there no father/infant bonding, or biologically programmed instincts in males to care for their offspring? I mean, I can see how it wouldn’t be as strong as parent/child bonding is in women, but in the first months after birth, wouldn’t the baby provide a physical manifestation of the pair bond–glue to keep that bond strong when other psychological adhesives are unavailable? I don’t remember exactly, but don’t men have similar–if weaker–responses as women to infant facial features?

Feminism has given women far too much security, extracted from unwilling men, rather than men who the woman needs to convince to want to on an ongoing basis.

That is certainly true. But you see that kind of punitive reasoning all over the place. Find a burrowing owl on your property, and the best thing you can do is shoot it and bury it before the gov’t finds out–they don’t reward you for keeping the thing alive, but they sure as hell punish you for not doing so. I think it’s instinctive to take the easy path, and when mechanism are there which allow you to do it, it’s hard not to take advantage.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
mjaybee October 28, 2009 at 15:27

I mistyped the post in response to B&G

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Renee October 28, 2009 at 20:38

The Fifth Horseman

c) There was no financial compensation for a single mother or adultress, and there was social shaming. The poverty, ostracization, and thus physical danger facing them was real.

All this made marriage work in the old days. None of these binding factors still exist today, and the risks have all been transferred to the man.

So were the risks only to the women are was it pretty even? And just out of curiosity, was there social shaming for the adulterer as well?

Doug1

Or is she simply reflecting the American feminist influenced zeitgeist, that no woman can allow her man to play and still maintain any self respect (unless maybe she is too to an equal or greater extent), even if he does show that he still loves her and pays attention to her……………

It’s not surprising that she wants a divorce, and I don’t think anyone here thinks it is. I don’t think women should automatically think they need one to maintain self respect etx. if their husband wants to sleep with other women sometimes, as long as he’s still loving and pays attention to his wife (and children of course). After all through most of history women didn’t, especially when their husband was of unusual success or status.

I’m sorry but I don’t see this as any “feminist zeitgeist” influence. I mean, if you really love someone then “playing” as you put it shouldn’t even be considered. It doesn’t matter if you’re loving and give your wife attention, don’t cheat. Sex is something that you reserve for your spouse. But hey, maybe at the age of 25, I’m just old-school when it comes to marriage. I was brought up believing that adultery was bad, plain and simple. I’m sure that you all wouldn’t go for a wife “playing around” behind her husband’s back. And what about pregnancy, STDs, and that dreaded child-support.

Now don’t get me wrong, if a spouse isn’t fulfilling their spousal duties and is hurtful, then I can see how a person turns to another person for comfort. Not that it’s right of course, but I understand.
————————–
Kis,

“A fourth thing, which most women won’t have the guts to do, is instead of haning out among men playing attention-whore without any real risk, is to go over onto Feminist blogs and take on the bitches on their home turf.”

I’ve never been to one. Having seen how women behave when they get together with a collective whipping boy to focus their hostility on, I just…yeah. It’s a lack of guts, certainly. It says something that as a woman I feel more comfortable speaking my mind here than among other women. Though I think that’s as much a function of the fact that I agree with most of what you guys have to say, and that certainly won’t be the case at a feminist site.

Yeah………I’m one of those women :P . I’ve been to a few sites, Feministing mainly (I have my own opinions about feminism – not to say that you guys are incorrect, but I’ll save that for another day). I admit that I’m pretty chicken when it comes to posting differing opinions on there. On this site, I too am more comfortable expressing my opinions mainly because you guys are (for the most part) more open-minded, not to mention that I can count on learning something new. I get a more wider view of society and the world around me when I’m on this site. It’s not about being an attention-whore at all.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Puma October 28, 2009 at 20:41

So much estrogen on this thread.

Need …. air … to …. breathe …… [passes out].

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 28, 2009 at 20:46

You…are…killing…me….here…..:)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 28, 2009 at 20:48

So much estrogen on this thread.

Need …. air … to …. breathe …… [passes out].

So that’s where my dad’s COPD came from. A wife and three daughters–estrogen overload. :P

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Renee October 28, 2009 at 21:08

Doug1,

Total rubbish.

None of the writers on this blog remotely fit that description. Most of the commenters do not. There are a few commenters that fit some of those charges, but probably non that fit all of them. So what?

The truth is that misandry permeates our media culture. Further feminists have succeeded in getting many people as regarding any criticism of or dissent from feminist tenants as misogyny. E.g. any belief than men and women aren’t the same in any way that doesn’t exalt women over men, i.e. in some area does the opposite to an extent, is automatically misogyny. Well horseplot. Believing that men naturally lead and should do so in attracted and/or bonded pairs, and that some men naturally do and should in civilizations overall may possibly be wrong (I strongly think not) or morally wrong (I’m not a cultural Marxist and I definitely think not), but it’s definitely not misogyny — by any proper or traditional definition of the terms. It’s not hating women.

Hating feminism is not hating women.

I completely agree with you here, but I don’t think Black&German was talking about what you described as being misogynistic. There have been comments that either were borderline misogynistic or entirely so, but they were in the minority. The thing is, it’s usually the minority of anything that get’s the most attention whether it be religious zealots or actual misogynists that post on MRA forums or blogs similar to this.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Renee October 28, 2009 at 21:12

So much estrogen on this thread. Need …. air … to …. breathe …… [passes out].

You…are…killing…me….here…..:)

UH OH, someone get some estro…..oops I mean oxygen here STAT! :P

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 28, 2009 at 22:58

As a single female, I am sometimes appalled by the fact that there are so many married men out there looking for a fling on the side. Usually, the story I hear is that their wife stopped sleeping with them, rarely sleeps with them and that they are at the end of their rope…

I have thought all along that this is just a line but after reading some of the comments on this site, maybe it is a reality and not just a way to get women to have sympathy sex with a married man. If this is true, what would you say the root of this is? Are women tired? Bored? Uninspired? I am a woman and I certainly am not asexual so I don’t imagine other women are either.

For what it’s worth, I do bring this up to my married friends and just provide a hint of hey, if you are slacking off in the sex area… find a way to jumpstart it b/c I see the results of what happens to men who don’t get it at home.

Cheating is wrong. It is not the answer to an issue that is more deeply rooted than sex. Somewhere there was sex and then at some point it stopped. I guess it is best to look at signs of this disintegration early on to maybe prevent it from futher spiraling downward. This would be the responsibility of both parties as there is obviously no specific gender to blame.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
kis October 28, 2009 at 23:34

If this is true, what would you say the root of this is? Are women tired? Bored? Uninspired? I am a woman and I certainly am not asexual so I don’t imagine other women are either.

There are several conversations here that would answer your question, but I’ll try to crystalize a few of the reasons:

Women’s sex drive depends largely on the desirous gaze (I won’t call it the male gaze, because hello, lesbians and stuff). In other words, a woman’s libido increases when she knows she is an object of desire. Men wear this particular gaze a lot while courting a woman–and it’s often more intense during that period because it’s not just lust, it’s also kind of predatory in that he wants her but he hasn’t got her yet.

Then he gets her. Sex is now a given. He stops giving her “the look”, and she stops feeling so libidinous. (Or she’s got him, so she lets her appearance slide. He stops giving her “the look”, and she stops feeling so libidinous.) Things slow down. He gets resentful and starts to pressure or nag for sex, which leads her to view it as just another chore to get over with. (Or she gives him sex, but her gonads aren’t in it, so she gets resentful.) Things slow down more, and both parties eventually give up.

Alternately, she could have been faking her voracious appetite to land the man she wanted, and now that she has him she feels she doesn’t have to fake anymore. Not every woman has the same baseline libido.

Alternately, she could have a natural decrease in sex drive due to hormones from childbirth, or antidepressants or yeah, she could just be really tired and stressed out. They don’t talk about what the problem might be, and don’t find solutions. The longer they live as “roommates”, the worse it gets, because her libido likely isn’t going to reemerge from the pit unless she gets that desirous gaze.

I’ve read a bit as well on why women love to get married, but don’t love being married so much. Something about women really getting off on being chosen. Of course, once you’re married, you’re no longer being chosen by your husband. He’s stuck with you. That might have something to do with it as well.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
kis October 28, 2009 at 23:40

I also think what I said above correlates with the stats that say women who read romance novels have more and better sex on average than those who don’t. Reading romance lets you vicariously experience that initial courting/choosing period of heightened female libido on a regular basis. It helps keep the libido up, even if your man isn’t giving you “the look”.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 28, 2009 at 23:46

BTW, Kis, I used to row at regattas up in Shawnigan and Brentwood. I like the island. I even like the damp fogginess of it. There’s something pleasant about rain on a still lake or inlet in the morning.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 28, 2009 at 23:55

BTW, Kis, I used to row at regattas up in Shawnigan and Brentwood. I like the island. I even like the damp fogginess of it. There’s something pleasant about rain on a still lake or inlet in the morning.

I’ve spent time all over the island. Still haven’t learned to love the rain, lol. Or the fact that if you want a garden, you have to clear the beds from scratch like a damn pioneer every bloody spring.

But the town where I live now is nice. It’s small, it’s less stressful than the city. Nice place to bring up kids.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 29, 2009 at 00:00

I’ve spent time all over the island. Still haven’t learned to love the rain, lol. Or the fact that if you want a garden, you have to clear the beds from scratch like a damn pioneer every bloody spring.

To enjoy the rain, you should dress for it. Wear fine wool, good boots and a proper hat.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Puma October 29, 2009 at 07:40

Single Option: Many marriages are sexless. The fault isn’t some moral shortcoming with either spouse, but our mamallian nature. We simply weren’t meant to be caged/mated with the same creature for 50-60 years.

Marriage was invented and had its heyday when people married at 18 and died by 35. I think, with some sacrifice 17 years can be managed. But when you are talking 3-4 times that span of time, it just doesn’t work.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
kis October 29, 2009 at 08:26

Single Option: Many marriages are sexless. The fault isn’t some moral shortcoming with either spouse, but our mamallian nature. We simply weren’t meant to be caged/mated with the same creature for 50-60 years.

There are ways to keep the sex alive, Puma. My parents have been married for almost 50 years, and they still have a healthy sex life. They flirt with each other all the time, and my dad gives my mom “the look” a lot, even now. Usually while rubbing his hands together. And my mom used to read romance novels all the time. Not quite as much anymore, because I think they’re slowing down a bit–finally.

But keeping it up like that requires some understanding of Game, I think, even if it’s a subconscious one–and a willingness to apply it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Puma October 29, 2009 at 08:30

Yes kis my parents are still together too. But you can sometimes tell it’s through superhuman effort.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 08:40

There are ways to keep the sex alive,

But, what you have said about it seems to imply that it is all on the man to do so. He has to give the wife “the look” even if she looks like 9 miles of bad road – fat, frumpy, and unhappy.

What has been lost in the whole dialog is that women actually need to put in some effort to be attractive to their husbands. OH HOW DARE I EVEN MAKE SUCH A SUGGESTION!!! Men just “should” feel desire for their wives, no matter how fat and unattractive they get. :P

Add to that the demand of women like Renee that any woman “should” be able to shove her tits in our faces any time she wants to, and it is up to US (men) not to react. So, we get women’s sexuality shoved in our faces all day every day, are forced to learn to shut down and inhibit our natural reflexes to women who actually are attractive, and when we get home to the frump who looks like 100 kilos of cold mashed potatotes shoveled into a garbage bag, we are suddenly supposed to morph into flesh and blood vibrators and get a woody in response to stimulation that actually induces a sense of nausea.

Men are not the one-dimensional horn-dogs that women think we are. In fact, we are fully 3 dimensional beings with needs of our own which cannot be redefined purely in terms of what a particular woman wants at exactly that moment in time.

Yeah, women like your mother understood that being a “wife” actually meant caring a bit about your husband’s real needs.

However, today, most people past their mid-40s are undergoing a sort of collective “heterosexual bed death.” The dynamics are just as you described for “lesbian bed death”, but applied to the culture as a whole and extended beyond existing relationships to the motivation of men themselves to even seek to form relationships.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 08:43

Yes kis my parents are still together too. But you can sometimes tell it’s through superhuman effort.

Mine don’t seem to require much effort. They’re really very compatible. The only problems they’ve really had were when my dad retired–being slightly OCD is a great trait in a heavy duty mechanic, not so much in a retiree who goes from working ten hours a day to zero. It took almost a year for them to adjust. After that, they were back on track.

That said, my mom always speaks to him respectfully, even when she’s pissed off. And they’re big on constant displays of affection–hugs, kisses, flirting and the ubiquitous lascivious look.

It takes work, sure, but it seems to be work they enjoy.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
zed October 29, 2009 at 09:21

My parents have been married for almost 50 years, and they still have a healthy sex life.

It takes work, sure, but it seems to be work they enjoy.

Apparently they know something that a lot of younger people don’t know.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Puma October 29, 2009 at 09:23

Clearly something changed between the 6% divorce rate era, and the present-day 47% divorce rate era. It wasn’t anything in the water.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 09:29

What has been lost in the whole dialog is that women actually need to put in some effort to be attractive to their husbands. OH HOW DARE I EVEN MAKE SUCH A SUGGESTION!!! Men just “should” feel desire for their wives, no matter how fat and unattractive they get.

Well, I did mention that her letting her looks go can be the starting point. Although the letting her looks go can arise from a number of sources–not getting the look, thus not feeling attractive, then ceasing to care. Or complacency as far as “I’m married. Work’s done. Off with the make-up, on with the pounds!” Having kids can do it, too–I glowed while pregnant, then for a year after giving birth I tended to be sallow and wan, got really bad dark circles under my eyes and half my hair fell out from breastfeeding (thank god I have a LOT of hair).

I didn’t have to worry about so much about looks, though. My ex fell for me during the two hours our shifts overlapped. I’d been cooking for six hours in a paper hat and hairnet by the time he walked in the door, and he still saw through the frumpy chef’s jacket, hairnet and film of kitchen grease. And even after the first two kids, I still had a great figure.

When I started to put on weight after quitting smoking and couldn’t shed it immediately after having our third kid, I took to wearing more tailored clothes and make-up–which I’d really never done before. I still had an hourglass figure, though, just more generous, so I was lucky in that respect.

So yeah, you do have to care about making yourself attractive. That said I’ve had even very attractive women complain to me that their husband doesn’t look at her the way he did when they were courting. Of course, that could be because they treat him like shit, too.

So, we get women’s sexuality shoved in our faces all day every day, are forced to learn to shut down and inhibit our natural reflexes to women who actually are attractive, and when we get home to the frump who looks like 100 kilos of cold mashed potatotes shoveled into a garbage bag, we are suddenly supposed to morph into flesh and blood vibrators and get a woody to stimulation that actually induces a sense of nausea.

Well, and then you get the umbrage from wives when their husbands look at other women, whether in real life or porn. Which is totally stupid–and hypocritical, especially if those women read romance or like to watch chick flicks starring Matthew McConaughey. I see this attitude all the time on romance writers’ forums, and I often call them on it. What, you get what you need to vicariously keep your flame burning–the courtship/falling in love story–but your man is supposed to only want to look at you? Men need visual stimulation, dudes.

However, today, most people past their mid-40s are undergoing a sort of collective “heterosexual bed death.” The dynamics are just as you described for “lesbian bed death”, but applied to the culture as a whole and extended beyond existing relationships to the motivation of men themselves to even seek to form relationships.

I just find that so sad, especially since it doesn’t require that much effort to keep things alive. And I always shake my head when I see a recently divorced woman who was a total fat slob for the last five years of marriage suddenly lose weight and start dressing nicely. (Yes, I dropped all the weight after I split with my ex–because I started smoking again. It melted off without any effort, after years of trying got me nowhere. Go figure.) I always want to tell the men they’re dating now that after a year or two together, those women are going to be fat shlubs again.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 09:32

Puma,
What you are saying is that after a certain amount of time a man won’t be able to keep it in his pants because his wife has naturally aged? What about all of the overweight, bald, out of shape men? I don’t see too many of them working at being attractive to their wives…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 09:32

Apparently they know something that a lot of younger people don’t know.

Well, Zed, my dad’s got Game, and he knows how to use it. (I credit him for making me the dirty old man I am today.) My mom read a lot of romance, especially when we kids were small. They treated each other with genuine respect and affection.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 09:34

I want to change the “bald” statement to… hair that grows like bozo, combovers, mullets, ponytails, etc. I actually find a bald man who shaves down whats left on his head and lets the baldness shine much more attractive than the above.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 09:43

I always want to tell the men they’re dating now that after a year or two together, those women are going to be fat shlubs again.

Most men have that part figured out. I think there are actually men who prefer fat women because they don’t have to worry as much about other men finding her attractive and doesn’t then have to worry about mate poaching.

Looking at a woman and imagining her 50-100 lbs heavier is a great way to fight any temptation to engage in “Sexual Harassment” of her. ;)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 09:47

Does anyone here care about a woman for who she is on the inside?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
zed October 29, 2009 at 09:59

Well, Zed, my dad’s got Game, and he knows how to use it.

Well, apparently your mother does too – in a way that you don’t. Or, maybe being able to be married to the same man for almost 50 years and still have an active sex life was not on your radar at the time you were laying the foundation?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 10:01

Does anyone here care about a woman for who she is on the inside?

There are a whole lot of women who are even uglier on the inside than they are on the outside.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:05

Zed,
Is that your experience in life? That women are ugly on the inside?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 10:07

Zed,
Is that your experience in life? That women are ugly on the inside?

I have met a great many of them who were, SO.

Take for example Maureen Dowd, Gloria Steinem, and even Nancy Pelosi. Do these strike you as women that you would even want to have as friends, much less be tied to them as mates?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:12

My question was “Does anyone here care about a woman for who she is on the inside”? And your answer is that most women are ugly on the inside. Perhaps it is a reflection of what is going on inside of you.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 10:12

To Single Opinion:

Yes, there are, but I have more time left to hold out hope (and less experience to tell me its not worth it) than most of the people here. And, so far, my experience with caring about women’s personality and intelligence has been rather disappointing (and surely less extensive than Zed’s).

As a side note, you seem to think that cheating on one’s spouse is solely done by men. The statistics I have seen do not support this (although, given the secrecy involved in such things, the statistics are of admittedly limited reliability, and tend to fluctuate wildly); the statistics I have seen have all indicated that wives are between 2/3 as likely and as likely to cheat on their husbands as husbands are to cheat on their wives (and the ones showing lower rates of female cheating tend to be somewhat older statistics). And it’s not just done in retaliation either–in cases where both cheat the woman cheated first 46% of the time (admittedly, I have only seen this statistic reported once, so don’t put too much faith behind it).

I don’t believe cheating is a moral thing to do (which is why I haven’t commented on the recent posts that have basically endorsed it); a promise is a promise, even if it sucks (although non-exclusive dating doesn’t violate any promises). But it is unfortunately committed by both genders, and there are things both genders can do to reduce the chance their partner will cheat on them.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 10:16

And your answer is that most women are ugly on the inside.

No, my answer was exactly (you can read it for yourself) –
“I have met a great many of them who were”

Perhaps the way you misread my answer is a reflection of what is going on inside of you. You were the one who twisted my statement into “most.”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:22

Arbitrary,
I agree that women cheat too… I was just pointing out my personal experience of married men constantly hitting on me and telling me that their reason for it is that their wives aren’t putting out. I am trying to figure out why the women aren’t having sex with their husbands.

I also don’t like feeling like a piece of meat. I want to be attractive to a man for more than my legs…

I personally am against cheating while married. I also think that people who are dating should evaluate their relationship periodically to be sure they are on the same page. Exclusive or not?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:25

Ok Zed let’s try this again

Does anyone here care about a woman for who she is on the inside?

Zed:

Your past answer was that you have met a great many women who were ugly on the inside. Do you consider that an answer to my question?
that is the point I am trying to make .

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Jabherwochie October 29, 2009 at 10:25

“Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:12 am
My question was “Does anyone here care about a woman for who she is on the inside”? And your answer is that most women are ugly on the inside. Perhaps it is a reflection of what is going on inside of you.”

Perhaps. But even my mom, who thought she was good, and thought she did good things, inadvertently, by following her instincts and emotions, destroyed my family, and twisted my understanding of human nature, leaving me vulnerable and in a state of cognitive dissonence. Although she meant no harm, her naivity and self rightousness combined to create chaos and misery in her own life, and the people around her. Even in realizing her mistakes, she rationalizes them away, and shows no remorse. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions. I’ll take wisdom and honor over empathy and optimism any day.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Jabherwochie October 29, 2009 at 10:27

In other words, most evil people don’t think of themselves as evil.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:29

What we focus on tends to increase…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:30

When there are problems on the outside, there tends to be an issue on the inside that has not been looked at, otherwise it would not bother us so much.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 10:35

Ok Zed let’s try this again

Does anyone here care about a woman for who she is on the inside?

Your past answer was that you have met a great many women who were ugly on the inside. Do you consider that an answer to my question?
that is the point I am trying to make .

Yes, because if a woman is ugly in the inside, I don’t care how much makeup she wears, or how big her breasts are, I don’t want to have anything to do with her.

I’ll give you an example. About 20 years ago I ran into a woman who was a childhood friend – the literal “little red-headed girl” of my Charlie Brown youth.

On the door to her bedroom, she had a sign that read –

CAUTION!!!
You are looking at a HIGH PERFORMANCE WOMAN!
I go from zero to BITCH in 0.2 seconds.
Warning – the BITCH switch sticks!”

Now, imagine that I, as a man, would choose to put a sign on my door that read –

CAUTION!!!
You are looking at a HIGH PERFORMANCE MAN!
I go from zero to FIST in 0.2 seconds.
Warning – the FIST is a repeater!”

What conclusions would you draw?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Jabherwochie October 29, 2009 at 10:40

If I shoot you with a gun, what internal problem of yours exaserbated that.

Words are slippery. Especially psycho babble. What you are saying has no solid meaning. You would tell a caged animal to accept his cage, so that he feels better. We do live in a world with real problems, not just problems caused by personal choices and beliefs.

“What we focus on tends to increase…”

This is true. But we don’t focus on hate here. Feminist do. We focus on ideas and philosophies, and the grand scheme of things, and solutions, and surviving, and making the world better. We admit or emotions, but then move past them to the realm of intellectual rigor pretty quickly. We don’t dwell on ever fluid emotions here. You are.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Puma October 29, 2009 at 10:42

Single Opinion – It’s not horny old men not being aroused by their aging wives that is the problem. Look at our current divorce rates. 66-75% of divorces are initiated by women.

Apparently the problem of “boredom”, if that is what it is, affects both parties.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:46

Zed, you still haven’t answered the question. Diversion tactics will get us nowhere

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Puma October 29, 2009 at 10:48

SO -
Here read this article by Sandra Tsing Loh in the July issue of the Atlantic:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200907/divorce

Women are just as guilty, if not more guilty, on pulling the ripchord on their marriages.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:49

Is the divorce rate 66-75%? I didn’t realize it went up so much. I do not see that in my family and friends but it is possibly because they are waiting longer to get married… early to mid 30′s after the oats are more sown.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
zed October 29, 2009 at 10:50

Yes, I have, SO. The fact that you can’t understand it is your problem, not mine.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 10:52

Yes, I guess I have a problem understanding drunks

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 10:53

SO, if you want respect from men, don’t tell them that you want it; do things to earn it (by meeting the same standards they have to meet, not your own).

If you want men to voluntarily spend time around you (when they aren’t trying to get something from you) make it pleasant for them to do so.

If you want men to have sex with you, you have to be attractive to them. For different people that means different things, but for most (almost all?) men, this means meeting certain aspects of appearance.

You wouldn’t respect a man who didn’t earn it, or spend time around a man you made you feel terrible, or have sex with a man you weren’t attracted to (unless you were just doing it to get something from him). So why expect men to behave any differently?

Many (most?) women demand respect without doing anything to earn it, act like complete narcissists, and do nothing to maintain their attractiveness once they get a man to commit to them. And then they’re confused (or at least act that way) when men don’t respect them, don’t like hanging around them (except when they want sex), and try to avoid committing to them. And, while there are men who do these things, too (see, for example, Kis’ ex), they do not represent the overwhelming norm in the way that they do amongst women.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 10:54

Well, apparently your mother does too – in a way that you don’t. Or, maybe being able to be married to the same man for almost 50 years and still have an active sex life was not on your radar at the time you were laying the foundation?

Oh, it was. Sex is important to me.

I think also that their innate compatibility helped them. My mom didn’t have to Game my dad into being a good providor–she actually had to Game him into not being a workaholic.

My desire for an active sex life above all probably kept me from Gaming my ex into getting the other thing I wanted–at least after I went back to work–which was for him to continue to be a good providor. He got what he wanted (or what he thought he wanted) out of the relationship–all kinds of freedom and leisure time, enthusiastic sex pretty much on demand, and a faithful, attractive wife. But I didn’t have the Game to make him feel necessary, so he ceased to care about being necessary.

wives are between 2/3 as likely and as likely to cheat on their husbands as husbands are to cheat on their wives

Men often cheat to get sex, although they sometimes cheat for deeper reasons.

Women cheat to get the rush of courtship/feeling of being chosen. I see that in even single women who are involved with married men–they seem to have this feeling that not only are they being chosen, over and over again, but the man wants them so much, he’s willing to risk the vagaries of divorce should he get caught. And then in the rare case that he leaves his wife, the magic fizzles because the woman didn’t understand her own motivations for being involved with him. He’s not choosing her anymore–he’s stuck with her, lol.

I don’t believe cheating is a moral thing to do (which is why I haven’t commented on the recent posts that have basically endorsed it); a promise is a promise, even if it sucks (although non-exclusive dating doesn’t violate any promises). But it is unfortunately committed by both genders, and there are things both genders can do to reduce the chance their partner will cheat on them.

Women: stay attractive, inside and out.

Men: make her feel attractive, inside and out.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Jabherwochie October 29, 2009 at 10:57

“Yes, I guess I have a problem understanding drunks”

@Single opinion-

I addressed your concerns too. You are stupid.

And not a 75% divorce rate, but 75% of divorces are initiated by women.
You have weak reading comprehension skills. I will be ignoring you from now on, and unlike women who say that, I’ll keep my word.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
zed October 29, 2009 at 11:08

But I didn’t have the Game to make him feel necessary, so he ceased to care about being necessary.

That’s the heart of it.

But, the culture probably had more to do with it than you did. He’s enough older than you are that he had probably internalized that without him you were like a fish without a bicycle by about the time you were born. The personal really has become the political and the political really has become the personal.

It’s going to take both men and women digging to dig ourselves out of this mess. I’m not sure how we can even start, but those people with kids probably feel some motivation to at least try – if the world they live in is as much weirder than our world as our world is than our parents world, life is likely to be very cold and confusing for them.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 11:24

Jabherwhatever
Talk about narcissists! I wasn’t referring to you at all when I asked about the reference to the DIVORCE RATE . If you get out of your own mind and read back to
Puma October 29, 2009 at 10:42 am
Single Opinion – It’s not horny old men not being aroused by their aging wives that is the problem. Look at our current divorce rates. 66-75% of divorces are initiated by women.

Grow up

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
kis October 29, 2009 at 11:34

But, the culture probably had more to do with it than you did. He’s enough older than you are that he had probably internalized that without him you were like a fish without a bicycle by about the time you were born.

LOL, yeah, probably.

I mean, my dad has always sought out ways to be necessary, even in situations where he wasn’t really relevant. My mom used to bemoan the fact that he’d never let her drive herself anywhere–but you could tell she really liked that he chauffered her around every chance he got. When they come visit, he takes over a lot of tasks that I would normally do–fixing things or cutting down a tree or mowing the lawn.

I start the lawn mower, and by the time the first bag of clippings is dumped, he’s just kind of swooped in and taken over the job. I don’t get territorial about it, because he doesn’t act as if “you’re doing it wrong”–one thing my ex used to do a lot and that would get me bristling, especially since he’d often been content to let me do it wrong for years without bothering to step in. Dad acts as if he *wants* to contribute, or as if he can’t sit and read the paper while someone else is doing a “man job”, even though he’s 76 and has clearly earned the right to do so.

Part of that is his OCD. But part of it does come from being raised in a culture where men were still seen as necessary. He went a little squirrely when he first retired, but eventually just found other ways to make himself feel useful. And my mom was really good about not just backing down from things she used to see as her duties (she was as comfortable behind a wheelbarrow as a sewing machine), but letting him know she appreciated it, and not criticizing because he does things a little differently than she would.

So yeah, in many ways, I think they have the perfect marriage–they both got Game. But I don’t know that kind of perfection is even possible anymore given what you said about the fish and the bicycle. Game might not be enough to overcome all the cultural learning that’s gone on.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Puma October 29, 2009 at 11:53

Yes I was only referring to what % of divorces are initiated by what gender. It’s possible I wasn’t clear in my post.

The divorce rate itself is slightly under half, something like 47% if I remember correctly. Maybe someone has more current data.

Anyways, the real figure we have to keep our eyes on is the new marrige rate. That has been on a decline since 1970. Fewer marriages will mean eventually fewer divorces, which slowly starting to show in the slightly declining divorce rates.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 11:54

letting him know she appreciated it, and not criticizing because he does things a little differently than she would.

So yeah, in many ways, I think they have the perfect marriage–they both got Game. But I don’t know that kind of perfection is even possible anymore given what you said about the fish and the bicycle. Game might not be enough to overcome all the cultural learning that’s gone on.

Well, Game might be enough to get a guy laid, just as the grrl game of big tits (real or fake) shoved in guys’ faces might be enough to get them laid. But something longer term is going to need more going for it.

The problem is that men and women have been positioned as enemies and competitors. A few years ago a book called “The Surrendered Wife” made a huge splash, and when I read a few excerpts from it, I was like “WTF?!?! They really need books to teach people this, now?” You will hear people talk about how things get distorted into black and white, well I can’t even imagine something more distorted than casting anything other than complete and total opposition and fanatical control as “surrender.”

As I said in a long post on another thread, the old days are gone. Your dad almost certainly got told how necessary he was to women, and how to be necessary. He liked being helpful because that was who he was – the core of his identity.

That is now gone – along with the old skills like canning garden produce and shoeing horses. It’s just not something necessary in today’s world, and doesn’t really fit. The police state which has been built up to try to force men to live up to those old roles may be able to garnish their paychecks and get that CS and alimony, but they will never get guys to mow your lawn for you. It is that kindness which has been trashed out of the culture.

Personally, I think women have lost a whole lot more than men lost. Women used to have the social power to hand a man a white feather and have him rush to throw himself in front of a machine gun. Now men have the power to tell her to take that white feather and shove it where the sun don’t shine, and no longer have to make cannon fodder of themselves to prove anything to anyone, because the narrative will demand that they don’t believe it anyway.

The comments about Pavlina’s wife are clear proof of this. My old man would have slapped me into the middle of next week for making a comment like that about anyone.

This is the world that feminism has wrought for you grrls. Make sure you thank your feminist mothers and older sisters for it.

Yes, I know, kis, your mother wasn’t feminist. The problem is that you can’t dump raw emotional and social sewage into everyone’s water supply and only the ones guilty of it have to drink the tainted result – they poison it for everyone.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 11:57

Thanks Puma,
It is sad in a way to think about the future generations. How will children be raised? Maybe on farms?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 12:26

Personally, I think women have lost a whole lot more than men lost.

Oh hell, yeah. I mean, I see it in the fact that even not getting dinged for child support, my ex still isn’t paying the one thing he’s supposed to–his own bill that has both our names on it. I don’t even know if he feels bad about the fact that I’m stuck paying it. You can’t socially pressure a man into being responsible anymore–even if he’s oblivious to the punishments that await responsible men. You can’t do it, because responsible men aren’t given the credit they deserve, and irresponsible ones reap rewards right and left.

I find myself wondering how much of the rent his new girlfriend is paying, and whether he’s shifted back down to part time work yet. Women not only let men get away with being irresponsible, they encourage it through their choices in the mating game, and then ignore or punish the ones who are decent.

My parents’ marriage is successful because they both come from a different era. I’m a lot like my mom. But my ex was nothing like my dad. Sigh.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
zed October 29, 2009 at 12:58

You can’t socially pressure a man into being responsible anymore–even if he’s oblivious to the punishments that await responsible men. You can’t do it, because responsible men aren’t given the credit they deserve, and irresponsible ones reap rewards right and left.

True. When we were hashing out ideas to go into the foundation of MGTOW, I came up with the term “Ethical Sociopaths.” A sociopath is someone who is unaffected by social values and pressures, and used to be considered “a bad thing.”

But, what does a man do when it is the commonly accepted social values themselves which have become completely corrupt? Just because everyone around you is “doing it”, whatever “it” is, does not mean that “it” is the right thing to do.

In the old days when there were still such things as lynch mobs, someone took quite a risk in going against the mob. A person really has to believe in the values they hold in order to go against social pressure and risk complete loss of status, or worse.

Several ugly and dangerous things have to happen. First, a man has to lose any concern at all for what others think of him. That gives him the freedom to act ethically – even against social pressure – but also carries the risk that he could go quietly insane without realizing it. Along with that loss of concern goes loss of all respect for the people who hold corrupt values. Compassion may still be there, as for a foolish child who does something harmful to self or others. But, even with compassion all input from those people is simply dismissed.

It used to be “every man for himself”, but now it has become also “every woman for herself” because her ability to get her husband to hold up his end of the partnership depends entirely on the quality of her Game – she has no social support system left at all to keep the wayward cad from using her, or someone with a deadbeat nature from letting her down.

It would be great if women could be made to understand this. But, it seems to go so much against their natures that even if they did I’m not sure that would change their behavior.

What do you think, kis? Think women would be willing to choose Ethical Sociopaths over some guy with a full head of hair (I know bald is ok with you, I’m talking about those women to whom it is important) who gets their ‘gina tingling?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 13:10

What do you think, kis? Think women would be willing to choose Ethical Sociopaths over some guy with a full head of hair (I know bald is ok with you, I’m talking about those women to whom it is important) who gets their ‘gina tingling?

I’m pretty sure the vast majority of urbanized women won’t. And even here in the ass end of nowhere, where feminism isn’t quite the religion it is elsewhere, the younger women are more likely to scorn the Ethical Sociopath than reward him. They pay more attention to what makes their gonads tingle than anything else.

But he seems like the perfect guy for me.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 13:15

Hair’s the Sunshine!!!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 13:30

even here in the ass end of nowhere, where feminism isn’t quite the religion it is elsewhere, the younger women are more likely to scorn the Ethical Sociopath than reward him. They pay more attention to what makes their gonads tingle than anything else.

And that is why Game is the future.

As a parent, you have it really tough. What are you going to teach your kids? Can you get your daughter to choose the Ethical Sociopath over the ‘gina tingle? Are you going to teach your boys to overlook the woman who leads with how big her tits are and look for other qualities? What if they turn out to want “a girl, just like the girl who married good old dad” who will be quite happy to give them a quick shag, but in order to be part of her life will require them to crawl on their bellies through barbed wire over piles of broken glass?

But he seems like the perfect guy for me.

Then you need to up your Game and start letting other people know something else about you other than how big your tits are and how kinky you are in bed as the first thing you tell them about yourself.

Some men really will only be interested in your mind. ;)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 13:51

As a parent, you have it really tough. What are you going to teach your kids? Can you get your daughter to choose the Ethical Sociopath over the ‘gina tingle?

I’m pretty positive I can. But that’s because she’s different from other girls–extremely high IQ, with lopsided social skills. In fact, she is an Ethical Sociopath in a way that will likely make her impervious or oblivious to the appeal of Bad Boys. She comes across as naive, but she’s really not at all.

Are you going to teach your boys to overlook the woman who leads with how big her tits are and look for other qualities? What if they turn out to want “a girl, just like the girl who married good old dad” who will be quite happy to give them a quick shag, but in order to be part of her life will require them to crawl on their bellies through barbed wire over piles of broken glass?

Them, I’m not so sure about. I hope they can find someone compatible, but I almost imagine my oldest not bothering about marriage–or even dating. He’s very much a MWGHOW already. My youngest? Oy. He’s all about instant gratification–plus, he has good looks and charm. I can see a lot of pump and dump in his future, and it worries me.

Then you need to up your Game and start letting other people know something else about you other than how big your tits are and how kinky you are in bed as the first thing you tell them about yourself.

Really, I don’t–not IRL anyway. Plus, I wear a minimizer bra that makes me look smaller than I am. Usually, the first thing I talk about to anyone is my kids. How sad is that?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 29, 2009 at 13:59

Usually, the first thing I talk about to anyone is my kids.

But that’s not the first thing you talked about here, kis. You started off running classic grrl game, focussing on your sexuality.

If you troll on the bottom for bottom feeders, that is what you are going to catch.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 14:11

Usually, the first thing I talk about to anyone is my kids. How sad is that?

Actually, that’s pretty typical of parents I’ve met. They mostly either start conversations with talk about their kids or their work–and why not? They are the two biggest things in your life, aren’t they?

But that’s because she’s different from other girls–extremely high IQ, with lopsided social skills. In fact, she is an Ethical Sociopath in a way that will likely make her impervious or oblivious to the appeal of Bad Boys. She comes across as naive, but she’s really not at all.

How old is she again? :P

In all seriousness, you should at least warn her about ladder theory, or she may be in a for a big and emotionally wrenching shock.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 14:20

But that’s not the first thing you talked about here, kis. You started off running classic grrl game, focussing on your sexuality.

If you troll on the bottom for bottom feeders, that is what you are going to catch.

Actually, the first thing I talked about here was what a turd-ass my ex was, lol. But no, that’s not my first topic of conversation with people I meet in real life, either.

The way I behave on the internet (here, especially) is not the way I behave in the world at large–mainly because I don’t see the people here as potential mates. But also because I don’t have to face any of you guys in real life, or deal with any of the consequences of you knowing I like my sex a little kinky. As for my boobs, they’re there for anyone to see, minimizer bra or not.

I do flirt with people, but in mostly harmless ways–half the time their wives are sitting right there, laughing along. And I am frank irt talking about sex in abstract ways–but those conversations usually spring from people asking what I write. People where I live don’t know anything about what I personally do in bed–although I’m sure there’s some speculation given my genre of choice.

Even my profiles on dating sites focus on my kids, my jobs, my personality, my taste in music, books, food, and activities outside the bedroom. I don’t know that I even mention sex at all, other than that I write trashy romance. I list my body type as “average”. My profile photo is one of me hugging my youngest (his face obscured), with no make-up on and not showing my body.

So please, don’t go by my behavior here, in conversations that largely evolved organically and in which I have zero reason to be coy or exercise any restraint. Me here is me on steroids.

Besides, you started it. ;)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
zed October 29, 2009 at 14:26

Actually, the first thing I talked about here was what a turd-ass my ex was, lol.

Which is another example of not acting too bright – coming on to a men’s oriented board and expecting them to commiserate with your tale of woe.

If you hadn’t turned out to be such a good sport, we’d have run you out the same way we have some others.

Besides, you started it.

Nuh’uh, sorry toots – you may be able to blame men IRL and get them to take the fall for your choices, but this is a whole ‘nother ball game.

Remember my saying that people suffer according the level of their own bullshit? Your mighty suffering has a cause. ;)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 29, 2009 at 14:36

How old is she again?

In all seriousness, you should at least warn her about ladder theory, or she may be in a for a big and emotionally wrenching shock.

She’ll be 14 on Halloween–how’s that for a bad omen?

And yeah, I can see her falling prey to the NiceGuy(TM) more than the Bad Boy. We talk about sex more than most mothers and daughters probably do, and I hope she’s taking what I tell her to heart. But she’s…weird. A boy (a nice one) recently asked her to dance, she said “no thanks”, and when I asked why, she said, “I’m just not ready to dance with a boy.” So I think she seems naive, but she’s much more in touch with her own level of maturity, and she’s not the type to do something she doesn’t want to out of fear of looking uncool or hurting someone’s feelings.

Considering how pretty she is (and how curvy, already, oy), that makes me feel a little better.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
kis October 29, 2009 at 14:39

Nuh’uh, sorry toots – you may be able to blame men IRL and get them to take the fall for your choices, but this is a whole ‘nother ball game.

Toots? TOOTS!!?? Hmmph!

*flounces off*

LOL

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
zed October 29, 2009 at 14:40

*flounces off*

LOL

They always revert to type. ;)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 19:49
Renee October 29, 2009 at 19:59

Zed,

Add to that the demand of women like Renee that any woman “should” be able to shove her tits in our faces any time she wants to, and it is up to US (men) not to react.

Where did I even say or insinuate this? Of course men will react. Seriously though, what lead you to believe that I would think that way?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 20:45

The average age of the military man is 19 years. He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country. He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash his father’s, but he has never collected unemployment either.

He’s a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away. He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and a 155mm howitzer.

He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk. He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark. He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must.

He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a professional.

He can march until he is told to stop, or stop until he is told to march.

He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity. He is self-sufficient.. .

He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.

He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts.

If you’re thirsty, he’ll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He’ll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.

He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were his hands.

He can save your life – or take it, because that is his job.

He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay, and still find ironic humor in it all.

He has seen more suffering and death than he should have in his short lifetime.

He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and is unashamed.

He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to ‘square-away’ those around him who haven’t bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking.

In an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.

Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great- grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom. Beardless or not, he is not a boy. He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for over 200 years.

He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and understanding. Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.

And now we even have women over there in danger, doing their part in this tradition of going to War when our nation calls us to do so.

As you go to bed tonight, remember this shot. . .

A short lull, a little shade and a picture of loved ones in their helmets.

Prayer wheel for our military… please don’t break it. Please send this on after a short prayer.

Prayer Wheel

‘Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands….
Protect them as they protect us.
Bless them and their families for the selfless acts
they perform for us in our time of need. Amen..’

When you receive this, please stop for a moment and say a prayer for our ground troops in Afghanistan, sailors on ships, and airmen in the air, and for those in Iraq.

There is nothing attached…
This can be very powerful…

Of all the gifts you could give a US Soldier, Sailor, Coastguardsman, Marine,
or Airman, prayer is the very best one.

I can’t break this one, sorry..
Pass it on to everyone and pray.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Welmer October 29, 2009 at 20:55

Spare us the BS, Single.

That boy is over there fighting for the right of Afghan women to wear bikinis and divorce their husbands — not our freedom.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:08

Oh, I forgot (head slap) the whole world is out to get men and make them suffer

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 21:11

SO

All that patriotic BS is the first thing to go, when crazies starts firing at you.It has to, or you´ll be dead real quick…
Listen to Welmer on this one….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:18

Get real guys!!! I want to know who hurt you so badly?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:18

And … how they did it???

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:19

There are plenty of hurt women out there too!!!!! Maybe it isn’t about gender. Have you thought of that??? In some countries, there are actually 5 genders. How would you guys survive?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:20

Women are loving creatures!!! Remember that.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:21

The answer lies in your heart, not your head (upper or lower)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 21:23

SO

I don´t care about gender…
I care about justice and equality….
YOU are the one going on about gender…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:23

Guys, just open your hearts. Think happy thoughts and imagine them drifting out from your heart… not your head(s)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:24

Kimmie,
This site is about gender splits…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 21:25

Wauv, your mom must be proud of you….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 21:25

Usually, being lied to by just about every woman in their lives. Many of them were screwed by our divorce and family court system. I got screwed by affirmative action (possibly–it is of course impossible to be certain, and there are perhaps some ways I wound up better off because of it).

If you really want to honor the sacrifice made by American soldiers, don’t just stand around praying for them. Make the country they return to a better place for them than the one they left.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 21:30

SO

That would be “loving creatures” with the emphasis on “creatures”, right ???
Had a bad day, hon´???
You´ve been trying to pick a fight all day….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:30

Sweeties, I love all of you. I don’t walk around hating people of the opposite sex. I love all people because we are all connected. I do my best to make this world a better place. I hope that somehow the butterfly effect will make my actions more than small and simple ones

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 21:31

SO

Want a pedestal, while you´re at it ???

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:32

No, I do not… unless you are too tall for me to kiss you

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 29, 2009 at 21:36

Sweeties, I love all of you. I don’t walk around hating people of the opposite sex. I love all people because we are all connected.

Gawd I hate hippies.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 21:39

Must…not…think…delusional..disorder…..

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 21:48

I am all for the preference of love over hate. But shutting one’s eyes to an insidious truth merely allows the wounds plaguing society to fester. There can be no greater hate for a fellow human being than to willfully ignore his or her suffering when he or she calls for your aid. Even the one causing the suffering is either not willfully involved in the act, or else has made some judgment that it should be so (though many such judgments may themselves be wicked). I leave you with this, hopefully you will consider it:

…it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation?

For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth — to know the worst and to provide for it. I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 21:49

Sorry I am not a hippie… my parents (in that generation) weren’t either. I am me!!! Sent here to love you…. smooch!!!!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 22:01

No, based on what you’ve said, I’d guess that you (and, based on your last comment, your parents) are a reasonably devout Christian.

We (or at least I) will forgive modern feminists if they repent and dismantle their fraud against society–but we will not stand idle while they continue to perpetrate it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Gunslingergregi October 29, 2009 at 22:05

”””””Welmer October 29, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Spare us the BS, Single.

That boy is over there fighting for the right of Afghan women to wear bikinis and divorce their husbands — not our freedom.
”””””’

Truth what I found out after the fact I did in bosnia they can now get assfucked in divorce yay

Although do feel good that they stopped killing each other. But yea woman gonna start getting waxed big times though.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Gunslingergregi October 29, 2009 at 22:09

”””””’He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk. He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him,”””””

If your so loving why do you put down his writing.

I scored perfect on act for writing. he he he

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 22:25

I am not a feminist, I am a woman. My nature is to love and my hope is to be loved.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 22:32

I don’t think anyone here has accused you of being one, and from the things you’ve said, I doubt very much that you behave in the ways that have raised the ire of so many here. But you need to understand that you are not typical in this; much more typical is the woman whose nature is to consume and whose hope is to be worshiped by those she has tamed–one by one.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 22:32

Accused you of being a feminist, that is.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 22:34

I honestly do not know too many women who fit that description. Although, I am SURE they exist. But, I promise you, there are more good women out here than you think…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 22:36

When you say consume… do you mean they consume men? Or material things?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 22:37

SO

They´re doing one helluva job hiding and keeping quiet !!!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 22:38

Most of them do not act the same way towards other women as they do towards men–I assure you that you would be surprised by just how large a fraction of women DO behave that way.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 22:39

What are some of the symptoms???

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 22:43

SO

Why don´t you go talk to them on their sites ??
Don´t take our words for it, -find out yourself !!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 22:43

You want me to be a SPY???

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 22:46

SO

Nope, just go talk to them…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 22:46

Ok, can you direct me to them whomever they are?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 22:49

SO

Try Jezebel, -and try asking them something. you know will piss them off!!
See you again when you´ve been banned and erased…
That should´nt take long…
Say, 2 minutes..
Happened to me…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 29, 2009 at 23:16

I think she has already proven your point, Arbitrary…:)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 23:34

Kim,
What do you mean by that?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 29, 2009 at 23:37

Consume material things, with no desire to produce or to help society in their production…they view jobs as being roughly the same as watching tv; time sinks completely dissociated from the production of wealth.

As regards your other question, most obvious ways to tell you are talking to a woman with an unearned sense of entitlement:

(1) If she is attractive, she has a retinue of guys who are her “friends”; she calls upon them to do things for her, but never gives anything in return, and acts indignant if they ask for something.

(2) Bemoans that any system that does not specifically set aside different (lower) standards for women is “unfair”. If she meets said lower standards, commends herself as succeeding against “the patriarchy”; if she fails to do so, it is only because “the patriarchy” is holding her down.

(3) Believes that any time a man disagrees with her, he must be the one who is wrong. This is sometimes even in cases where he is provably right. (I once corrected a girl’s arithmetic when she had asked me to help her with some math homework; she persisted in saying I was wrong even after verifying my correctness with a calculator. I avoided her after that.)

(4) Believes that existing systems such as rape laws and divorce courts are currently fair, despite being confronted with such incongruities as the fact that a man can rape a woman (as defined by several states whose statutes I have looked at) while he is in a coma–just as long as she is intoxicated when she has sexual contact with him. Possibly even believes that these systems do not yet favor women enough.

(5) Believes that past injustices towards women justify (or are one argument towards justifying) affirmative action in favor of them. (For a brief explanation of why not, consider the fact that men have just as many female ancestors as women, so why should past injustices towards women affect them any less?)

I could continue in this vein, but hopefully you get the rough idea; basically, these women only view other women as actual people, men are just “walking dildos” (from the SCUM–Society for Cutting Up Men–Manifesto) or genderless slaves.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 23:41

I have met some spoiled girls who act like 1 or 2 of the descriptions but never one woman who met all 5. Wo, I would be afraid of her. Believe me, there are not many women like that!!!!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 29, 2009 at 23:53

Jezebel wouldnt post my reply

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Single opinion October 30, 2009 at 00:01

I used to work with a girl who was soooo gorgeous, probably a 10 to you guys who rate with numbers. Anyway, she flirted with every guy that walked by her desk and they all fell for it… Who is to blame? Is the hot young flirt at fault? Or, is the middle aged short, balding and grey haired guy who really thinks she is into him at fault?

Lesson: Don’t fall for young flirty things. They just want attention.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 30, 2009 at 00:04

Lesson: Don’t fall for young flirty things. They just want attention.

Just don’t marry them, I say. Otherwise, have at ‘em, and as soon as they get restless move on to other pastures.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Single opinion October 30, 2009 at 00:10

What I am saying is They won’t have you!!! They are flirting with 100 other guys, you are not special. no need to move to another pasture b/c she doesn’t really want YOU in the first place. She just wants people to payattention to her. That is her ego and identity.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 30, 2009 at 00:23

She just wants people to payattention to her. That is her ego and identity.

Sure, but all women wish for that.

I’ve had my fun with more than a few of those girls. Unfortunately, I also made the terrible mistake of marrying one.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
The Fifth Horseman October 30, 2009 at 01:17

Arbitrary,

You are in very good shape for knowing this much about the harsh reality, for such a young age.

The good news is that things will almost certainly be better for men by the time you are only 33 or so. In order to be well-positioned, learn Game, start conversing with Americans who have expated, and film all your sex acts.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
zed October 30, 2009 at 05:16

She just wants people to payattention to her. That is her ego and identity.

That’s what is so annoying – she wants attention, but wants to deny all the reasons why she is getting it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
zed October 30, 2009 at 05:26

Renee: Where did I even say or insinuate this? Of course men will react. Seriously though, what lead you to believe that I would think that way?

From the discussions where you did not seem to understand or think it was fair that men are allowed to bare their chests in some circumstances where women are not.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 10:36

To SO:

I wrote this last night, but wanted to have a chance to look at it in the morning to make sure that I didn’t ramble too much. I probably did, but I’m going to post it in its entirety anyway; I apologize for the delay in my response.

Not only have I met several women who met all 5 of these characteristics, but only rarely have I met women who did not follow at least 2.

What you have to understand is that most women who believe these things won’t necessarily talk about them directly in everyday conversation, or even admit these beliefs to themselves. For example, when I was in an eighth grade health class, we had a class exercise to identify differences between the genders; to avoid having opposites (stronger/weaker, and so forth) we were to only identify “positive” traits. The stuff that got listed under “boys” was eminently reasonable, and was about what you’d expect: stronger, faster, taller, that sort of thing. And then we got to the girls.
“They’re prettier.” (Well sure, why not. I can go with that.)
“They mature faster.” (Certainly true, in the physical sense at any rate.)
“They’re smarter.” (Say what?! As several of the boys were unable to contain their indignation and denied this vehemently, the teacher actually put this on the blackboard.)
“There seems to be some disagreement on this one. [My name], what do you think?” (I had had the sense to raise my hand to speak in response to this.)
“Aren’t boys and girls equally intelligent?” (I was thirteen, I didn’t know about the difference in variance between the two populations; regardless, what happened next was killer.)
“Do any of you girls agree with [My name]?” (No one raised their hand. I would have been too young to pick up on this, but I sincerely hope that this was just because they none of them wanted to be the first one to do so, and thus be stuck defending the position against the other girls.) “Well [name of girl who first said that girls were smarter], what makes you think that girls are smarter?”
“Well, boys always spend all their time running around outside while girls are inside reading and stuff.” (The “and stuff” was particularly priceless…)
“But not all boys spend their time running around outside.” (My response, out of turn, probably a mistake.)
“Well, it’s just like boys being taller, isn’t it. Some boys might be smarter than some girls just like some girls are taller than some boys. But most girls are smarter than most boys.” (The height business particularly stung, since I expect it was a direct commentary on me; I was both short and reasonably intelligent.)
“Well, do we have anything else to put on the girls’ side? [another girl's name].” (Wait what?! The teacher is going to take that as definitive?!)
“They’re lighter. I think that’s a good thing since it means they eat less.”
[The teacher proceeds to only call on girls for the remainder of the class in order to avoid having the intelligence issue further discussed. When I confronted the teacher after class, the response I got was this: "I didn't want to spend the rest of the class talking about it, and it's not like you could prove what [name of girl] said was wrong anyway.”]

Believe it or not, I’m not bringing up this story to comment on the behavior of the teacher (although a lesson of this sort is just asking for trouble to begin with). My point was this–this was a class full of girls who believed that they were smarter than men…you may say that they were only 13 and didn’t know any better, but it is my experience that this is the sort of belief that doesn’t go away–evidence to the contrary can never be direct or complete enough, and eventually it all gets shoved into the shell of the conspiracy of “the patriarchy”. The problem with feminism isn’t when it actually preaches equality and means it–I have nothing against women getting the literature they write published, or going to college, or working. But they need to fight on the same playing field, and they need to accept increased responsibility with increased privileges, and they need to stop treating men as inferior moral and intellectual beings.

As regards the flirty girl; the problem is not when she flirts with 100 guys. The problem is when she calls a few of them up at midnight to help her rearrange her furniture, then yells at them for not doing it fast enough. Or when she borrows money from one, then refuses to pay it back “because she thought it was a gift”. Or when she sleeps with one, then accuses him of rape so that he gets fired and she gets promoted into his position. (Okay, so I don’t personally know of any cases where the third one happened to people I’ve met. But the first two were real events.) And, while the men don’t have to put up with this sort of thing, holding them responsible for this stuff happening is blaming the victim.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 10:42

To Fifth Horseman:

Thanks. Although, to be fair, it probably has more to do with the female supremacists in my life being so blunt, than it does with my own deductive abilities. And I sincerely hope you’re right. 33 is still young enough to start a family, particularly with a younger spouse.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Kimskinovgorod October 30, 2009 at 10:52

Arbitrary

Would you mind if I use those 5 pointers in an entry on the MRM-pages in Denmark ?
They´re pretty good, actually !
You could have added 6) Will always defend, excuse or deny any behavior in the aforementioned points by herself or from fellow-sisters, and are likely to throw a fit if confronted with them.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 11:02

Feel free.

I like your number 6, as it is near universal, even among women who claim not to follow some or all of the other 5.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 30, 2009 at 11:14

Arbitrary

Thanks!
My point, exactly…:)
-God, I´m tired of that !!
7) Will always take it personal if any subject from the gender unequality is brought up, and will totally lose any objectivity and rationality, whatsoever…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 11:39

A person can only judge your 7 if they themselves have any objectivity or rationality on the matter. While I agree it’s true, anyone who would need this list, probably doesn’t meet that requirement. The initial point behind the list was to be signs of the belief of female superiority and entitlement that a person can recognize even if they refuse to think of feminism as bad. I might amend it to something like the following:

(7) She reacts in purely emotional terms to claims of gender inequality, or, if she uses any sort of statistics, she will ignore any relevant claims on the limitations in the accuracy or the inherent deception involved in those statistics.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 30, 2009 at 11:47

Arbitrary

-Much better !!
Now you only need three more to make an entry on this site, called “The Ten Commandments/Amendments”
Should´nt be too hard to find, given the subject of the matter…lol!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
21Guns October 30, 2009 at 11:57

Arbitrary:

It’s been observed by many people that girls tend to outperform boys in school from the ages 5-13. Sometime in high school, boys start catching up with and surpassing girls. I have no idea why this is. (Oh yeah, “The Patriarchy.” Silly me.) Seriously though, I could almost forgive the 13 year old girl for assuming that girls were smarter than boys, since that was probably the reality she was seeing up until that point.

In addition to that, men have shown a much greater variance of intelligence, meaning, they are much more likely than women to be either much smarter or much stupider; women tend to fall into the middle. And since stupid people usually make the most noise and get the most attention, that may have added to the girl’s (mis)conception that boys were less intelligent than girls.

That teacher, however, ought to have been given the boot for not explaining all that.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Kimskinovgorod October 30, 2009 at 12:06

21guns

Nonetheless, it´s widely accepted that women are smarter than men, and that assumption were based on experiments made on only 9 (!!!) brains…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
kis October 30, 2009 at 12:23

It’s been observed by many people that girls tend to outperform boys in school from the ages 5-13. Sometime in high school, boys start catching up with and surpassing girls. I have no idea why this is.

1) More male teachers.

2) Greater emphasis on tests and quizzes rather than busy-work like crafts, notes, projects, etc, which young girls are better at/more interested in than young boys. Student tasks through elementary and middle school sometimes look a lot like bureaucratic/middle management training.

3) The teaching system early on favors those who have better language skills and learn through explanation–the whole women give verbal directions, a man will draw you a map. Young boys sometimes require more help with literacy (or different methods of teaching it) in the beginning, and they don’t get it.

4) Young boys are less likely to be automatons in the classroom, or to care about performing well. They don’t tend to start caring until they’ve reached a certain level of maturity–usually around high school.

5) General scorn for geeks and dorks, which often translates into a “smart guys are pussies” mentality, and an idolization of rebels–the guy who comes to class stoned gets more cred from both males and females than the one who passes his tests–until a certain collective level of maturity is reached. Unfortunately, kids these days don’t reach that collective level until they see said “rebel” flipping burgers at McDonalds when he’s 20–which is too late.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 13:00

21Guns, that’s only true in the US. In Britain, for example, the boys never catch up. This, together with personal experience, tends to make me agree with kis’ explanation. Girls tend to do better on open ended work like homework and projects. Boys tend to do better on timed efforts. The shift in performance is mostly due to a shift in methodology (along with a shift in the gender ratio among teachers).

kis, I never started caring about school, only about learning (“Never let your schooling infterfere with your education.”–Twain). What does that say about me as a person? :P

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
21Guns October 30, 2009 at 13:05

kis

That makes sense. But this

Student tasks through elementary and middle school sometimes look a lot like bureaucratic/middle management training.

may be true nowadays, but the elementary school I went to was pretty hardcore. Then again, the neighborhood was about 90% Asian, so that may explain that.

Arbitrary

I had no idea. That’s a shame.
I had no idea

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
21Guns October 30, 2009 at 13:06

whoa, weird comment glitch.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 30, 2009 at 13:21

kis, I never started caring about school, only about learning (”Never let your schooling infterfere with your education.”–Twain). What does that say about me as a person?

A lot, actually. Unfortunately, I think the school system (and the social dynamics there these days) will make men like you a thing of the past. They’ve made learning so unpleasant and discouraging for boys, many of them just come to hate it.

I shudder to think what would have become of my oldest if he wasn’t already very bright, and if the methodology of teraching/grading in highschool wasn’t significantly different from primary and middle school. He’s in grade ten, and for the first time in years isn’t in danger of failing *everything*. The only course he is failing at the moment is “Career and Personal Planning” which is very project-heavy, and so many of the projects are frivolous–making posters and such. There’s no way to make him do that shit–he thinks it’s stupid, and it is.

He’s acing his math/science combined course this year because his teacher doesn’t mind if he spends 80% of his classtime reading a novel, as long as he doesn’t disrupt the class and performs on the tests.

Contrast that with last year, where his (female) teacher required the students to assemble all their notes, daily assignments and stuff into “chapter packages”, complete with title pages “enhanced with at least three colors”. Coloring? In grade fucking 9??!! He routinely got 95% or more on tests and labs, but those chapter packages would have failed him. Needless to say, he only did that work at the end of the year, at the business end of a cattle prod wielded by yours truly–and he still only handed in half of them.

My daughter, on the other hand, is very bright, and normally aces exams, but she also thrives in an environment where busy-work is expected. She loves doing posters and stuff like that. She’s been straight “A”s since elementary, and because she does well on tests, she’ll continue to do well even when the methodolgies change a bit for her next year.

They’re about the same intelligence (98-99th percentile), but I wonder how well my son would be doing even now if he hadn’t known how to read BEFORE he entered kindergarten.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 13:23

21Guns, this is why you see so many colleges, etc. placing such a large emphasis on GPA rather than test scores. It enables them to skew their admissions in favor of women, under the auspices of equalizing for “opportunity” rather than achievement. Indeed, they can avoid direct gender based discrimination entirely just by controlling the balance between the weights applied to GPA and test scores. In this way, for example, MIT can “not discriminate based on gender”, but have an admissions rate for women two and a half times the admission rate for men, so that the enrolling classes happen to be about 50/50 in terms of gender.

The lack of fidelity of the most common national tests when you get to scores too close to the edges (either at the high end, or the low end), while in some ways unavoidable, is itself also a factor (at least for top institutions). Basically, it renders people in the top few percent entirely indistinguishable from one another, despite possibly stark differences in ability. But this serves to mask the greater variance in male ability than female ability; beyond some cutoff, the tail of the male distribution (which tends to be fatter, and therefore have representatives further out) is considered the same as tail of the female distribution (which, because it is narrower, tends not to have representatives as far from the mean).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 13:30

Wow, your son sounds like a younger version of me. You weren’t the only one surprised by coloring assignments in high school either…the bad news is that they have them in some classes in colleges now, too.

Of course, some of the research I worked on as an undergrad involved colorings of numbers, so maybe paying more attention to that sort of thing would have been useful…

(Colorings has a special meaning in the mathematics of combinatorics and graph theory…essentially, a mapping onto a discrete, often finite set. Like any joke though, if you need the explanation it probably isn’t funny. I apologize, but I just couldn’t resist.)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 30, 2009 at 13:42

Yeah, Arbitrary, that one would have gone way over my head. LOL

Thing is, my son comes by it naturally. I was exactly the same as he is–open-ended work was anathema, I never took notes or even studied, but I rocked the exams. And I hated doing crafty/coloring/poster assignments, despite the fact that I was good enough at drawing that I could have made a career of it. So I don’t go hardass on him too much. He can do the work, when there’s a point to it. If there’s no point, no amount of saying “it’s because that’s the way it is” will make him put in any decent effort.

His social studies teacher held up one of his maps, bemoaning the “quality” of his work–untidy (poor kid is ambidextrous, and it screws with his penmanship–it’s legible, but not pretty), and without any coloring. “Did he label everything right?” I asked. “Well, yeah.” “So what’s the freaking problem?”

Of course, if they let him do all that stuff on a computer, they might get somewhere. But nope. It’s colored pencils or half-marks. Sigh.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Jabherwochie October 30, 2009 at 14:16

I was an education major. Much of what is said above about the problems of the education system being sexist is absolutely correct.

Schools are assembly lines of mediocrity. All children who think differently from the female verbal-linguistic learning paradigm, or act differently than the female conformist and group cooperation mentality, will either get by, but suffer the psychological torture of intellectual solitary-confinement, or fail. The smarter you are outside of verbal abilities, the more you will suffer. Even if you are recognized as bright, no matter what your thought paradigm is, students and the culture around you will look down on you for being a nerd or a geek. It will be 12 years of hell.

I have/had Asperger’s and think primarily in pictures when not interacting with other people. I daze out when thinking normally for me, as I stop processing the visual information in front of me in order to concentrate on my mental images. It bugs the hell out of my wife and friends, and they still don’t get what its about even though I explain it to them. They think I’m just an airhead, whatever that is. I know what your thinking, “But Jabber, you’re so well spoken and fluent when discussing complex ideas.” To that I would say, I adapted as best I could, and am proud of my verbal/linguistic achievements. There are still a lot of times I wish I could draw a little picture to get an idea across. Maybe one day blogs will allow that. I had delayed speech development and had a severe speech impediment most of my life. I still made good grades, because school is a joke, even with a lack luster memory and poor verbal/linguistic abilities. If I couldn’t draw during school, I don’t think I would have made it. I generally just needed to read the chapter before any test and would get a B. Thats not exceptional I’m sure, I’m just saying how much school was a joke and how little I had to pay attention. (I paid a little more attention in math, as I hated learning it from a book because it was so dry.) The school system is not set up for self directed learners, outside the box thinkers, bodily/kinesthetic learners, and a whole lot more branches of the multiple intellegence tree. Its set up for the “normal” and “average”. Many gifted students, and the stat escapes me, but it was shocking, of all the high school drop outs, something like 30% of them are gifted children.

Whats sad, is that even though I’m an artist, I tend to think less and less in pictures the older I get, as part of adapting to the world around me. My full intellectual potential will never be met, as I’m forced to think and act in foreign thought schema.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 14:22

:( As a left-hander, I understand completely. It was worse for me in elementary school; they often didn’t have any left handed scissors, and doing it right handed was way too awkward–but cutting left handed with righty scissors with a metal handle was a good way to wind up with an uneven cut and a strip of skin chafed off.

Part of the issue, for me, was that projects were often under-determined, and seemed to be graded on effort rather than quality of results. I can’t think of an example encapsulating both, but I will supply two examples.

In an eighth grade English class, I was given an assignment to “Write a short story.” No further specification, no word minimum, no word maximum, nothing. Three weeks to do it. There were students who barely wrote a single page, double spaced. My muse struck, so I wrote 57 pages, single spaced. All our assignments had length maximums after that. (I should note, I looked at it again later and I cringe at how bad it was.)

For a science project in ninth grade, I (with the erstwhile help of two teammates) constructed a device to measure the resistivity of wires. This is actually fairly difficult, given that the wire lengths whose resistance I wanted to measure were on the order of ones of inches. The idea was to look at wires made of copper, silver, gold, tin, and lead, and examine the (true) hypothesis that between elements in the same group (column on the periodic table)–which therefore have the same chemical properties–a lower resistivity can be found in the larger elements, since the valence electrons are less tightly bound. I can’t remember if the project got a B or a C. By comparison, a group that looked at emissions spectra of the fluorescence of a handful of elements received an A, a project that I had done more completely (and with an actual hypothesis to test) two years earlier.

Not all my school stories are horror stories though. I had one teacher I could have sworn decided how many quizzes to assign by determining the exact number I’d need to do perfectly on in order for my grade to work out over 90, then assigned that many plus one. Four quarters running and it always happened that way.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Arbitrary October 30, 2009 at 14:31

To Jabherwochie:

I’m always fascinated when I run into people who say they think in images. I’m completely incapable of it. I usually don’t even dream in images.

With regards to the drop-outs issue, the problem isn’t just that there are people thrown by the wayside of the educational system. Our modern credentialist society so heavily expects a direct correlation between intelligence and degree of academic achievement and intelligence that these people are stuck proving themselves to everyone they meet afterwards, regardless of their other personal achievements. It took me a long time to realize that this was not always so; I still don’t have any sort of decent sense of what society was like before, or exactly when the shift was made (the GI bill?).

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 30, 2009 at 14:42

Jabherwochie

You just gave an almost perfect description of my schooldays…I would read all the books in the beginning of the year, and hardly touch them the rest of the year. My teachers then found out, that when I were´nt allowed to draw during education, my grades would go down, and vice-versa.If I were only watching the teacher or the blackboard, I would become absentminded, and not remember much of what I were taught. When I was drawing, everything would stand totally clear, and I would remember everything, to an uncanny degree. Today I work as a graphic designer, and have done some comicbook-art too. And like you I find myself seeing the world in a less and less “picture”-defined way, as I´m getting older.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 30, 2009 at 14:53

As a left-hander, I understand completely. It was worse for me in elementary school; they often didn’t have any left handed scissors, and doing it right handed was way too awkward–but cutting left handed with righty scissors with a metal handle was a good way to wind up with an uneven cut and a strip of skin chafed off.

My son was fully ambidextrous until grade two, when his teacher and I decided the best thing for his penmanship would be to make him pick a hand. He wasn’t getting enough practice with either to get any good. He writes and eats with his right hand, but still cuts and uses tools with either, and switches back and forth with his mouse, without confusing the buttons–don’t know how he does that.

Part of the issue, for me, was that projects were often under-determined, and seemed to be graded on effort rather than quality of results.

Teachers can be morons, too. I mean, in grade 8 I had to do a five page, double-spaced report on an African country, with sections on climate, geography, economy, politics, culture, language, history, etc. All handwritten and presented in a narrative style–i.e. no point form information–plus he wanted two graphs and a map. I did the bare minimum to explore each topic, and ended up with over 30 pages. He said the only reason he didn’t dock me over the length was because it wasn’t boring. The people who did come in at or under the page-count got shitty marks because their work was “incomplete”. WTF?

Our modern credentialist society so heavily expects a direct correlation between intelligence and degree of academic achievement and intelligence that these people are stuck proving themselves to everyone they meet afterwards, regardless of their other personal achievements.

They’re called “education snobs” here. I mean, it’s pretty pathetic when a company requires a grade 12 education to operate a freaking back-hoe, but they often do. One grader-operator I know who’s been at it for over 30 years was denied a job because he dropped out in grade 10. Again, WTF?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 30, 2009 at 15:08

He writes and eats with his right hand, but still cuts and uses tools with either, and switches back and forth with his mouse, without confusing the buttons–don’t know how he does that.

I used to mess with some of my teachers by drawing a line down the middle of the chalkboard and then writing in cursive with both hands leading away from the line – the left side simply being a mirror image of the right. Up through about 6th grade I often wrote my notes left handed in mirror image. I never had any trouble reading it, and could take an ordinary book turn it around and read it from a mirror just as well as normal. There was something about the way my mind processed images that I could flip and rotate them mentally with no effort at all. I was a real whiz at mechanical drawing. So was my sister, and my mother was completely ambidextrous – she used to do oil paintings using both hands.

On the other hand, I could not tell the difference between C sharp and A flat if my life depended on it. I’ve met other people with very good visual/kinesthetic abilities but poor auditory ones. Does your son have any musical tendencies?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 30, 2009 at 15:14

I used to mess with some of my teachers by drawing a line down the middle of the chalkboard and then writing in cursive with both hands leading away from the line – the left side simply being a mirror image of the right. Up through about 6th grade I often wrote my notes left handed in mirror image. I never had any trouble reading it, and could take an ordinary book turn it around and read it from a mirror just as well as normal. There was something about the way my mind processed images that I could flip and rotate them mentally with no effort at all. I was a real whiz at mechanical drawing. So was my sister, and my mother was completely ambidextrous – she used to do oil paintings using both hands.

I have the same ability to flip images and read in the mirror, upside down, etc., but I am very much right-handed, and have no problem with tones (otherwise I probably never could have learned to speak Chinese as quickly as I did).

My weakness in school was algebra.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Kimskinovgorod October 30, 2009 at 15:16

My girl usually takes a trip around the table, to check out how I´ve placed the fork and knife, because I can finish a meal without noticing, that I have switched them around…

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
kis October 30, 2009 at 15:31

On the other hand, I could not tell the difference between C sharp and A flat if my life depended on it. I’ve met other people with very good visual/kinesthetic abilities but poor auditory ones. Does your son have any musical tendencies?

None to speak of, other than to know if a note is off-pitch. He’s never shown any real interest in music, despite his dad having been a professional musician for much of his life, and my father being able to identify any piece of classical music by hearing a single bar. He likes music, though. Just not interested in making it.

And yeah, I can write and read forwards or backwards (or upside down, though that’s a little more work for me), but only with one hand. My daughter can too, though again, only with one hand.

My weakness in school was algebra.

My 7 y/o already thinks algebraically. He’ll tell me “2 37s is 74. Know why? 2 30s is 60 and 2 7s is 14, and 60 + 14 make 74.” Instead of doing it as 37+37 (because they haven’t covered that yet, lol), he’s breaking it down into 2(37)=2(30+7). I’m sure when they do start doing double-digit addition where you carry digits, he’ll lose marks because he’s “doin it rong”.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Bhetti October 30, 2009 at 18:23

say, did you say you write romance?

The next one comin’ out is going to be called ‘Zed’s Kis’, isn’t it?
I’d read it.

Summarising me so this is vaguely relevant: Strongly visual (but horrible at spatial: even worse than the average female, never mind the average man), weakly kinaesthetic, almost zero aural.

Welmer:
Algebra?
I’m surprised.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 30, 2009 at 19:16

Welmer:
Algebra?
I’m surprised.

I’m surprised that you’re surprised.

It’s actually pretty clear why I had a problem with it: I always tried to figure things out for myself without using formulae developed by others. Algebra doesn’t work that way, so it was counterintuitive to me.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 30, 2009 at 19:20

I always tried to figure things out for myself without using formulae developed by others. Algebra doesn’t work that way, so it was counterintuitive to me.

Really? Algebra was totally intuitive to me – it was almost obvious and made total sense. The origin of the word is something like “Al Jabr” which means “to bind together.” I made it all the way to a chemistry minor based on my strength in Algebra alone – set up the factors, start cancelling, voila – answer!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed October 30, 2009 at 19:29

My 7 y/o already thinks algebraically. He’ll tell me “2 37s is 74. Know why? 2 30s is 60 and 2 7s is 14, and 60 + 14 make 74.” Instead of doing it as 37+37 (because they haven’t covered that yet, lol), he’s breaking it down into 2(37)=2(30+7). I’m sure when they do start doing double-digit addition where you carry digits, he’ll lose marks because he’s “doin it rong”.

That’s not algebra, that is still simple math.

Algebra is –
a=2b
b=2c
Solve for a in terms of c –
a=2(2c) or 4c

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Welmer October 30, 2009 at 19:37

I made it all the way to a chemistry minor based on my strength in Algebra alone – set up the factors, start cancelling, voila – answer!

Interesting. I took the chem AP cold and did fine because I could visualize the geometry of molecules — definitely not because of algebra. I always tested far higher on math than I actually deserved, because I could infer the answers from visual cues.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Bhetti October 30, 2009 at 19:42

Zed, al-jabr more means ‘to force together’, although the concept is still achieving unity. Apparently derived from the term conventionally used in Arab medicine for bringing things together.

Welmer: Is this where the ‘men don’t ask for directions’ stereotype comes from?
Female maths teacher “If y=mx then m is the slope of the line…”
Welmer “How did you get at m? How do you know it’s the slope of the line? How am I supposed to remember this or figure it out if it doesn’t make sense to me?”
Maths teacher ” (she doesn’t want to explain) It just is. *underneath her breath* Why didn’t I become a stripper?”

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Welmer October 30, 2009 at 20:00

@Bhetti

LOL.

Yes, you’re not far off.

My favorite maths teacher was a brilliant, stammering Englishman named Philip Mallinson. He teaches at Phillips Exeter academy if he hasn’t retired yet. I just loved those tesselations he introduced us to which, incidentally, I encountered in the Bibi-Khanym mosque of Samarkand.

The only thing I feel bad about is that I was a cheeky little punk at the time, and doubtless caused him some frustration. Nevertheless, the two of us did find common ground on geometry, and as an adult I have come to realize what an altruistic, giving man he was to put up with the likes of me at the age of 14.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Renee October 31, 2009 at 12:40

Zed,

From the discussions where you did not seem to understand or think it was fair that men are allowed to bare their chests in some circumstances where women are not.

Oh that.
Well the key word is “some”. Take the media for example:

Taylor Lautner’s Shirtless Pics: A Hollywood Double Standard?
Grant it there’s a difference between a 17 year old and a 15 year old (I think she was 15 at the time that picture was taken) who’s a Disney actress and the context. But hey, even if he was 15, no one would’ve made a big deal. And there’s also how he’s being marketed.

I don’t think that everytime a woman has her shirt off on tv or the movies that it has to be in a sexual context. What about medical shows where they’re patients? I mean, what’s the big deal about two mounds of fat and glands anyway? Yeah guys are turned on by them, but should that be the basis of always covering women’s breasts in the media or having this societal “Oh noes” or almost repulsive attitude about them? And heck, I admit that in my ideal world, if a woman’s hot, she should be able to mow the lawn or swim at a beach (not just a nude beach) topless if she wants to without being arrested for indecent exposure or accused of “shoving” her tits in people’s faces.

I know we talked about this in another post (I forgot which one, I really need to keep a track of where I post lol), so sorry if this is redundant.

If you have a reply and don’t want to deviate from the topic anymore than I have with this post, we can always continue by email.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Renee October 31, 2009 at 15:06

And by post I mean my comment…..

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Doug1 October 31, 2009 at 15:44

Renee—

I mean, if you really love someone then “playing” as you put it shouldn’t even be considered.

Complete cr*p. Utterly ignorant of alpha men of the leading type, and of history. Complete feminist influence bullshiite.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
zed October 31, 2009 at 16:24

Yeah guys are turned on by them, but should that be the basis of always covering women’s breasts in the media or having this societal “Oh noes” or almost repulsive attitude about them?

They become repulsive when so many women use them to act seductively with no intention whatsoever of having sex, but only to get free drinks, attention, and a variety of other forms of pandering from men which they would not get if they were wearing a turtleneck.

From there, it is only a short step to coming to the point of view that it is not the breasts which are repulsive, but the women themselves who demand the right to jerk men around by their reactions with complete and selfish disregard for the man himself.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
Obsidian October 31, 2009 at 18:04

Hey Fellas,
I’ve never heard of this guy Pavlina before today, but I’ll say this:

If indeed dude married this lady “as is”, and then decided that he wanted to “upgrade” once he got money, well, he had an obligation to make a clean break w/his old lday first. That’s only decent. No, you don’t get off cheap. Yes, it’s gonna cost you, and in a way, it should-like it or not, that Woman stood by him when he wasn’t so rich and famous, and she deserves to be compensated for that, to say nothin of bearing him kids. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for reforming divorce laws and the like, but come on. Fair is fair here.

I saw the pic of the “happy couple” and to be honest-and this is coming from a guy who’s a friend of the Zaftig Woman-I didn’t find her attractive at all. Still in all, as his wife, she has rights under law, and he’s gotta compensate her.

Personally, I would never go the “polyamory” route, because its fraught w/too many problems, more trouble than its worth. If me and my lady ain’t hitting it, I’d rather just make a clean break and start over, and if I ever did do a multiple thing, I would lay all that at the beginning, not try to bring that in down the road. Bottomline, Pavlina’s wife didn’t sign on for such a deal, and I don’t think its fair to change up midstream.

Then, there’s the flipside of the argument that I hear a lot of guys try to brush aside, but I for one ain’t buying it-yea, we want our Women to look hot for us and keep themselves up, but how about how we’re looking? And be honest here-how many of us have the Michelin Man look, or could use a good shower (sniff sniff), or a trip to the barber or Men’s Wareshouse? True, Women may not be as visually driven as we are, but most Women don’t find slobs all that desirable.

Now, in this guy’s case, he doesn’t fall into that catergory-just the dumb one. Seems to me that he had other problems that needed working out before he married anyone, and I know what I’m saying here doesn’t fit the script, but I gots to keep it real. Unless you’re really into a certain look, in general, a hot chick matters to most guys, especially the more options they get. He didn’t have that many when he started out and got more later on down the line-that’s fine, but he should have had the commonsense God gave a billy goat to know that he was gonna pay one way or another, and that trying to go the “polyamory” route was really a coward’s way out, because let’s face it, he got the better end of the deal…how many guys would choose to hookup with his wife? Come on.

I’m just sayin’. And I think what B&G said has a lot of merit, too. Its the overall tone here, fellas, that has to be addressed. Can’t hate on Women AND improve yourself at the same time, just can’t be done. Gotta pick one or the other.

Choose wisely.

My first article for The Spearhead will appear next week…

The Obsidian

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
Marie November 1, 2009 at 14:14

Quite frankly, if he was cheating on his wife (however ugly she may be) then he deserves everything he’s got coming to him, and subsequently will not get any sympathy from me.

I am not always sympathetic to the wife in a divorce, since in many cases the wife is a selfish bitch who just walks away from the marriage and takes everything the man worked hard for. But in this particular case, I can’t blame his wife for wanting to leave his cheating ass. If he didn’t want to be with her, then he should have initiated divorce proceedings himself so he could go on banging some random skank in a hotel room.

I know this blog likes to whine endlessly about how feminism is ruining society, and I find that amusing because men are just as bad as the women they rightfully criticize. Both men and women are stupid and have their faults, and neither is better than the other.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2
Marie November 1, 2009 at 14:14

Oh, and don’t get mad Mrs. Pavlina – get EVERYTHING!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1
Renee November 1, 2009 at 14:17

Doug1,

Complete cr*p. Utterly ignorant of alpha men of the leading type, and of history. Complete feminist influence bullshiite.

Ummm actually this has more to do with Biblical marriage and….well….decency than any “feminist influence bullshiite”. I mean, you really don’t see a problem with married men having sex on the side?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
Renee November 1, 2009 at 14:29

Zed at October 31, 2009 at 4:24 pm,

I get you Zed. Believe me, I was taught to be careful in what I wore when going out. I still am at 25 lol. I don’t even flirt when I’m out with friends at a club or bar, much less making eye contact.

They become repulsive when so many women use them to act seductively with no intention whatsoever of having sex, but only to get free drinks, attention, and a variety of other forms of pandering from men which they would not get if they were wearing a turtleneck.

When you say use them do you mean just by simply having cleavage or by actually putting them in your face? Because I can’t imagine wearing a turtleneck in a hot club, party, etc.

What’s your opinion in regards to the media and everything else in my comment if you don’t mind?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Renee November 1, 2009 at 14:30

It’s something that has been on my mind for a while, and I would like to see what you thought about it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
zed November 1, 2009 at 14:52

When you say use them do you mean just by simply having cleavage or by actually putting them in your face? Because I can’t imagine wearing a turtleneck in a hot club, party, etc.

What’s your opinion in regards to the media and everything else in my comment if you don’t mind?

I work with a couple of women, one of whom is married and one isn’t, who are quite endowed, always wear low-cut tops, and never seem to pass up an opportunity to lean over something when they are talking to me, and quite literally “shove them in my face.” It gets quite tiresome because it is a fundamentally different way of interacting than any male co-worker engages in.

That being said, it is quite easy to ignore them, look elsewhere, or even look at them without reacting. I know quite well that the normal implied meaning of the gesture is nowhere to be found.

Those habits carry over outside work as well. I have had many occasions over the years when I thought it was pretty obvious that a woman was angling for my attention and to get me to ask for her phone number, and I just do as my habit suggests and go elsewhere, or completely ignore them. I have seen women get so agitated by my refusal to give them any attention at all that they almost seemed on the edge of pulling a “Hildegard Hamhocker” and clobbering me up side the head with something.

I’m not sure what you mean by your question about the media, but I believe it is quite inappropriate to sexualize young girls. Having worked in a home for boys and with the boy scouts, I think the sexualization of young boys in the media also appeals to a distressingly large segment of homosexual pedophiles (look up NAMBLA).

Personally, I have no problem if women want to walk around topless all the time. I think eventually it would desensitize men to the sight and decrease women’s power to play sexual games. I remember the old days when the joke about National Geographic Magazine was how many boys bought it because it showed pictures of tribal women with bare breasts.

What I object to is women who obviously do everything they can to put their breasts in a man’s line of vision, and then bitch about men looking. If they want to bare their boobs, and will shut up about men looking, I say go for it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
Renee November 3, 2009 at 17:59

Zed,
Ok, I get you. I basically agree with everything.

I’m not sure what you mean by your question about the media, but I believe it is quite inappropriate to sexualize young girls. Having worked in a home for boys and with the boy scouts, I think the sexualization of young boys in the media also appeals to a distressingly large segment of homosexual pedophiles (look up NAMBLA).

I’m also against sexualization of young boys and girls. Anyway here is the part that I was asking about:

I don’t think that everytime a woman has her shirt off on tv or the movies that it has to be in a sexual context. What about medical shows where they’re patients? I mean, what’s the big deal about two mounds of fat and glands anyway? Yeah guys are turned on by them, but should that be the basis of always covering women’s breasts in the media or having this societal “Oh noes” or almost repulsive attitude about them?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
SpaceGeek November 3, 2009 at 19:59

If you read Steve Pavlina’s website, it seems to me that he still likes his ex-wife a lot, and is quite HAPPY to be getting divorced. There’s not the least bit of anger or animosity. It also sounds as if the child-care arrangement was mutual, not something forced on him by his wife.

On his most recent Nov 2 blog, he posted more about how amiable their friendship still is.
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/11/a-few-updates/

I don’t think you can compare him to any unpleasant divorce experiences you personally have had. He had this to say about the reaction to his separation announcement:

The love and support are much appreciated, but there were also lots of immature reactions to our announcement. For example, a few bloggers tried to capitalize on it by writing ridiculous posts to play up the drama in order to garner more attention for their blogs. We really don’t want to feed the drama addicts. Many people also projected their own relationship and divorce issues onto us and our children, asserting all sorts of false assumptions about the nature of our relationship and our reasons for separating. These people’s personal issues have nothing to do with the reality of our situation, and a high volume of low-quality feedback and advice from people who’ve never even met us really isn’t helpful to us, so I don’t want to encourage more of that silliness.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
Welmer November 3, 2009 at 20:05

The love and support are much appreciated, but there were also lots of immature reactions to our announcement. For example, a few bloggers tried to capitalize on it by writing ridiculous posts to play up the drama in order to garner more attention for their blogs. We really don’t want to feed the drama addicts. [...]

-SpaceGeek

hehe. Looks like we hit a nerve.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
SpaceGeek November 3, 2009 at 21:53

Welmer, I don’t know if you hit a nerve with Steve – it’s possible you did. But I just wanted to point out that the quote you tagged with my moniker “SpaceGeek” is actually from Steven Pavlina directly. You were quoting his words not mine. I just wanted to clarify that, so there’s no confusion. Thanks.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
Observer November 7, 2009 at 06:44

Why is polyamory being equated with cheating here? One is an agreed-upon set of rules that allow for multiple relationships, and the other is the rank betrayal of a coward who doesn’t care about the suffering of their partner. There’s a world of difference.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1
Sherri Jackson November 28, 2009 at 22:31

Guys I’m sorry, but I had to put my 2 cents worth in. After reading the articles and keeping up with this breaking story. : )
Yes I do see where some of the comments are coming from. But I don’t get why it seems all the men are for HIM. His wife is being called all kinds of names on here. Not fair at all no matter how you word it. Yes she is a larger woman, but far from ugly. Many men prefer larger women. Men and women both know what they like. It’s just obvious most men making comments on here are for the skinny woman.lol
What if all you guys are wrong? Maybe she has gained weight in the past few years because of her unhappiness in her marriage. Maybe it was HIM not being the supportive husband that made her turn to food for comfort. Maybe his lifestyle, the lack of attention, maybe just maybe he lacks in the bedroom area too. Please do not be so quick to judge anyone. Takes two to tango. Not to mention if their children happen to read any of these comments it could really hurt them let alone crush this woman even more. Does it not occur to you that this woman looks at herself everyday in the mirror? You wanna know what I see? Two very unhappy people. At least they are smart and calling it quits. Whew!!!!!
I am happy because he can be free to do exploring and bring more content to his blogs.
And she can wake up in the morning knowing she has a brand new life ahead. One that will be full of POSITIVE people. As long as she doesn’t read some of these comments she’s good to go.
I enjoy reading comments but like I said some of these were harsh.
In case you are wondering, I am not an overweight woman making excuses for another woman. Just letting you know there is another way to look at this story. Just remember please, If you want to be treated like a KING treat your woman like a Queen and the fairytale has a “HAPPY ENDING”. Also remember beauty is only skin deep….ugly is to the bone!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
Rosco January 11, 2010 at 17:19

Seriously, Steve is getting weirder and weirder. His post are no longer about personal development. They are about his slave/master relationship with his sex slave. And how she playfully calls him master on his forums.

Sweet merciful crap!!What ever happened to “How to become an early riser”? Can we get back to helping people with their problems? Is that too much to ask from my local personal development blogger?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0
Rori Raye February 16, 2010 at 13:07

Yep, I remember Steve’s first polyamory post. He made so much sense. Actually, from my point of view – polyamory is good for women, if that’s what they want. If you’re single, you get to feel great, being pursued by many men and feeling fine having a relationship with as many as you like (the Bachelor this season has done a great job of creating a small community – his last three women and him actually looked like what a man’s fantasy would be, and the women looked fairly agreeable…but on the Bachelorette, it feels way too competitive between the men to ever, ever work without long distance or some very special people. If you’re married, and you’re an experimental woman – the idea of polyamory is to bring other women into the group – not necessarily men. It just doesn’t work unless the wife wants a relationship with another woman – then it does. And that isn’t at all what was going on here. This is plain, straight out – “My wife does not have self-esteem or take care of herself, and so I’m not attracted to her solely as much as I am to all my possibilities. I’m powerful enough in the world to attract all kinds of women out there.” If I were him, and I could not influence my wife to create change in our relationship that would renew my attraction, or if it was just that we got together too young and I needed to fly free for a bit – I’d want to go in the same direction he has…and, unless he’s stupid – he was willing to pay big bucks for a new life. Time will tell whether or not he made the right choice. Rori Raye

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
Michael J. Hall July 26, 2010 at 04:52

I believe you can exit this relationship without denying it’s validity or past importance to you…and please maintain your respect for Erin…I trust you will….Michael

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
yeah right November 16, 2010 at 18:59

I can’t imagine why so many of you would be bitter about alimony and child support law. If you’d keep your mouths shut about women’s looks when you look like trolls yourselves, maybe you’d be able to hold a marriage together.

One day I was out at a restaurant that had a TV up on the wall. There was this guy sitting closer to it than I was, but facing away from me, and American Idol was on (I think, I’m not that familiar with it, that’s what it looked like). There was this overweight singer up on stage. I shit you not, the dude yelled “LOSE SOME WEIGHT!” and stood up and turned 90 degrees to his right… and I swear he was carrying three kids. HUGE gut sticking out in front of him. He was going bald, too.

That about sums up the American male. You’re a piece of shit, but God forbid your wife put on ten or twenty pounds bearing YOUR kids. I’d make you pay for ‘em, too. That’s all you’re good for, writing a check.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0
Louisa January 18, 2011 at 20:41

Women pay alimony as well, eg. Jessica Simpson, Kirstie Alley. I make more money than my Dad & my ex, though we weren’t married, I lost about $30,000 when we split up (bought a home together when I was 17 so my name wasn’t on the title, I paid $35,000 over 2 years towards the home loan, it sold for $75,000 more than what we bought it for due to my real estate research, take out agent / solicitor fees = he made $60k & unfortunately he owed my parents another $75,000 as well + huge mess for me to clean up). I don’t think it’s men who get screwed, I have boobies, peeps consider me “hot”, I got screwed. I’m actually still paying for my most recent bfs foxtel & car insurance, gosh I suck with relationships….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0
ErinDeservesBetter June 25, 2011 at 15:00

How can anyone say that the other woman is prettier than Erin???
Erin has a nice sweet natural face, and just needs to lose 20 lbs.
The other woman is wearing a kiloton of make-up, and looks like a transvestite.
I don’t buy that crap about how liberating and enlightened “polyamory” is. Hopefully Erin and the children are well taken care fnancially. And hopefully Erin will find someone who values and respects her for who she is.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2
The East Guru December 22, 2011 at 18:26

To say the least as a Man , I am ashamed!! Was this same Mr. Steve talking all about Personal Growth, consciousness, Relationships, alignment with the universe and all Blah?Blah?.

I now know the folly of all these Art and Science of development , the gurus talk about that does not have a spiritual and ethical basis.I get revealed that this gentleman(??) never ever got an inch improved himself let alone helped improve others by a decade talk of personality development . He did not understand the ‘person’ of others let alone personality. I am sorry to comment about 100 odd commentators here some of the seem most Chauvinistic, who see woman as a piece of enjoyment and not as a person. I pity your spiritual growth dear brothers!!!

Come to my country, India and witness yourself , how many Men and Women look after their spouses who are bedridden life long and could never ever expect any “Sex” in their life. But these ordinary lots are spiritually evolved and they knew the meaning of Love that Jesus, Buddha and Krishna taught to the world. They have no Blogs nor do they conduct workshops and personality development retreats .But they do show the way of life that every one should at least aspire for! You are purely materialistic and mundane . Stop talking about personality development henceforth for God’s sake! For you are not only ridiculing all the best philosophies of the world by these comments but prove beyond doubt that you are not matured enough to receive any advice either.

A word to Steve who is much younger to me. Remember the words of Gandhiji ” My life is My message” You have already given a message. But you still could refine and give a better message . I do hope you would give, and we would be glad to hear that !!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
martin May 19, 2012 at 04:00

Learn to think like him – not to be him. Most People fail with his teaching becasue they copy his content – no1 Tip : Learn his thought process then copy his content. Its a whole different level. Plus your connecting as yourself not cardon copy – we are all special

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
martin May 19, 2012 at 04:00

Learn to think like him – not to be him. Most People fail with his teaching becasue they copy his content – no1 Tip : Learn his thought process then copy his content. Its a whole different level. Plus your connecting as yourself not cardon copy – we are all special

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
BE.T February 23, 2013 at 06:56

“Polyamory favors him more than his wife” . I beg to differ. Look at him. Wimpy looking guy with close-set eyes. But you know, it’s the wallet that makes a man attractive, yeah. If he were a regular guy, common and insignificant, like you guys, no woman would ever look at him. But I still read his blogs. I do like the lil guy, as a blogger.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

Leave a Comment

{ 2 trackbacks }

Previous post:

Next post: