If women were truly sincere about A) wanting to understand men, and B) wanting to have better relationships with them based on something other than the man doing everything women tell them to and being everything women want, nothing would be of more use to them than understanding “The Cave.”
The Cave is where men go to sort things out in their minds. Men tend to want to lead intentional lives and not be popping off emotionally over any issue, whether major or minute. This is a female characteritic that we are often uncomfortable with, and certainly goes against most culturally accepted notions of “the superior man.”
The contemporary mythological hero, Superman, has the ultimate cave – the “Fortress of Solitude.” That name captures so much – the two absolutely essential characteristics of “The Cave.”
First, it must provide “solitude.” The entire purpose is minimize outside inputs so the man can go inside and find his answers there. Yammering noise must be eliminated. And, it must be a true “fortress” against the intrusion of such things – it must shut them out, keep them at bay, and allow the man the space and peace he needs to feel and think his way through a situation that he does not immediately know how to deal with.
The process is neither conscious nor verbal for men. Demanding a verbal explanation of anything from a man while he is in the Cave, particularly an explanation of why he is in the cave, will get your head bitten off. A huge problem with verbal explanations is that often people won’t accept them — particularly women who won’t accept the validity of their man being in his cave in the first place and regard an explanation as nothing more than an invitation to argue with him about being there.
Basically what happens in the Cave is that the man shuts off all external inputs and either enters a sort of purely meditative state or engages in some activity that focuses his hands and the conscious part of his brain, keeping them busy, while the unconscious does its work.
First he reaches down into his gut and asks himself “How do I really feel about this?” He may be feeling 100 different things at once, but if he sits quietly with himself, and only himself, sooner or later a couple of reactions and feelings will bubble up to the surface as being more important than all the rest.
Then, he goes up into his head an asks himself “What do I really think about this?” Again, he may be thinking 100 different things, which he shuffles around, and sorts, and discards until he has narrowed it down to the most important couple.
The next step is an internal negotiation/mediation process in which he weighs each side against the other and asks himself questions “Is this issue which has me so bothered really significant, or is it trivial? Am I angry over something petty, or does this really violate a deeply held principle? Do I need to fight for this, or do I need to blow it off?”
Eventually he will work through all the internal conflicts and confusion and decide on a course of action which is right for him – both for what he feels, and what he believes. He will then emerge from the Cave in a much better mood.
Anyone who follows an animal into its cave is taking a grave risk. We tend to protect our caves, to regard them as our very own”Fortresses of Solitude” and to defend them against invasion.
This is all purely instinctive, not planned. Most men don’t realize when they are doing it because they are not thinking themselves into it, but rather responding to an awareness of internal states they do not understand but want and need to.
Women can improve their relationships with men by understanding the Cave, and realizing that they don’t have to like it, or even understand it, but merely accept it. Nothing you can do will stop men from heading for the Cave when they need to go. It is one way we are different from you.
Guys can improve their relationships with women in their lives who are willing to accept the Cave by at least giving the women warning that they are going there. If the relationship is good, all that should need to be said is “Cave. I’ll be back.”
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The “cave” was something I was thankfully advised about from an older military wife when my husband and I first married. This was especially helpful at the time as my husband had just returned from combat a few months prior and had a lot to work through from the experience. As difficult as it was, I kept my big yapper closed and let him be, waiting for him to share or remain silent as he saw fit.
This is one of those bits of wisdom I think is very important for women to pass onto other women. I have often received calls & emails from other wives upset that their deployed husbands won’t talk to them about the war. Each time I’ve explained the importance of solitude to them, as well as the importance of them realizing that phone calls and emails are the one escape their husband has from the world he’s currently living in. Best not to burden him with nagging to be told this or that or even bemoaning about issues at home you can either fix yourself or find somebody else to aid you with. Be the happy place, always be ready to listen if he wants to talk, but let him be until then.
Hestia October 22, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My goodness….a woman who listens to advice…you got a sister?
“If women were truly sincere about A) wanting to understand men, and B) wanting to have better relationships with them”
Believe it or not I used to have a lot of women come to me and ask for advice about making their marriage better. I’d tell them “Ask your husband what you can do to make him happy and then do it if you can.”
Response rate for women? About 10%. For men? 100%. I never had a man asked me for marital advice who was not prepared to do exactly this. Make of that what you will.
Cave? I had a cave in my house in Sydney. It was the old converted en-suite to office. Very damp, not very nice to be in, so my ex didn’t want to follow me in. My favourite thing in my cave was this. I have a common last name, call it ’smith’ but that’s not it. A very famous australian died in the early 90s and the banner at the newspaper shop at the station read ’smith portrait of a genius’. So I asked my friend who ran the shop to keep it for me. I took it home and framed it and hung it in my cave ’smith..portrait of a genius’…it was a very satisfying thing to have in my cave as I laboured long and hard on my software to be able to support my growing family. I know lots of other guys have their ‘caves’. Not only do we go there to think things over…often we go there to work….when I moved to Ireland accommodation is so expensive the idea of a ‘cave’ is just not on. You can’t afford it.
My wife at the beginning of our marriage took a bit to adjust to the fact that I need time alone. Usually in my office or in my shop. I’m a guy and an introvert, so carrying on frivolous conversations is.. well.. work.
I make the time to listen to her and attend her emotional needs and she recognizes there are times when her problems need to wait a day. My brain needs time to itself. If I am not allowed to thinks thing out or just ‘recharge’ I won’t be much good to her at best; a cranky bastard at worst.
Up until my divorce, my cave was a small room I built in the garage. Now the whole freakin house is my cave. And you know what? I like it.
Most women don’t ask for advice, they ask for validation.
Globalman- LOL, I do, but she might be a little too young for you, at just twenty one.
I am always willing to listen to good advice, especially that from folks who are older and wiser and obviously no more than spring chicken me. The admonishments in Titus 2, to let the younger teach the older are among the best bits of advice in the NT, IMHO.
My husband and I have both been very fortunate to not only have family members at the ready with advice, both of the asked for and unsolicited variety, but many older people who have taken an interest in our well-being as well. I cannot tell you how many times people have been kind enough to say something, “I know young kids don’t like advice from old people, but you two seem like such good kids I thought you needed to know this.” Sometimes the advice stung, especially when an older lady told me I was doing something wrong and handed me “The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage” when we had been married for just a few months, but all the help has been welcome from those who know what they are doing.
If more young’uns could sit down, shut up, and humble themselves, the world might be a bit of a better place. Especially with all the nonsense that floats around in the popular culture when it comes to marriage and gender relations. Just think how many conflicts could be avoided if young people were taught about such things as “the cave”! Or so I’d like to think anyway.
Zed wrote:
You could also try crossing two fingers into a plus sign… You never know, it could work.
Opps, I meant “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”. The “Care of Marriage”, while decent was not the one she gave me, nor is it really as great as “Care of Husbands”.
I don’t have a “cave” per say. But I seek the same sort of solitude in my weekly hunting. In that case, the entire rain forest and mountains serves as my “cave.”
I’d also add, that for too many men, they let their wives/girlfriends have way too much power in determining the look, function and layout of their domicile…which is what I suppose necessitates them designating one small area for themselves — the “cave,” and letting her have complete autonomy and control over every other area of the house.
I say screw that…ESPECIALLY if as the man, you are the primary breadwinner and you’re paying for most of it.
If the wife has an overwhelming nesting instinct to make everything pink and frilly or whatever feminine theme she favors, let her do it to a bathroom or the master bedroom…but you should definitely have some input into how the most lived in rooms fit you as well.
When I first got married, my wife wanted me to put all of my guitars and guns away in a closet.
At first I complied. But than I found that having the guitars put away made it way more likely that I wouldn’t practice and play because it was literally out of sight, out of mind.
So I bought stands, brought out all my guitars and made a prominent space in the living room for them. And besides making them more accessible, I think it looks damn cool to have guitars arranged about as purposeful decor. She protested at first…but now she dusts and keeps them clean and actually admitted she liked the way I arranged it.
Same goes for all of my rifles and shotguns. Making a nice display rack for them makes for nice decor as well.
When a person enters our house, than can easily see it is a house that shares both masculine and feminine influences…rather than a house in which the women controls it all and has banished all masculine items to a single “cave.”
My cave is the outdoors. Solo bike ride, hike, or kayak fishing trip (with the required cooler of beer) for a few hours lets me recharge.
Mine too. Motorcycle ride.
Well, that does sound fun, but I’ve just gotta ask:
If you’re going to be drinking beer, how do you pee out of the kayak?
Every fictional male hero has a ‘cave’ or equivalent.
Superman’s Fortress of Solitude
Batman’s Bat Cave
The Phantom’s Cave
The Captain’s Ready Room in Star Trek
When I was young, my mother never had a problem with the cave. It was my uber Betaprovider white-knight father that had a problem with it, and spoke in derogatory terms about me going to my room to pursue my hobbies.
He didn’t have a cave of his own – the closest approximate would be utter hogging of the remote, and watching TV even when the rest of us would rather talk. It is usually parents who yell at kids to turn off the TV and talk instead, but for us it was the reverse.
Stand up and pee over the side — down wind of course. I have a hybrid fishing kayak (native watercraft) and its very stable to stand in. I mostly do sight fishing on flats, so I’m almost always standing.
Yeah, ‘bike’ for me is mountain biking, road bike, or motorcycle. The motorcycle is my daily driver 4 days a week usually.
Nothing better than the sound of a float plane fading into the distance , after being dropped off in the middle of nowhere.
Useful.
And the description of what happens there need not be accurate… though it seems pretty good to me. The point is MEN DO THIS.
Women need to accept this.
And Men need to understand that just turning this off is going to have detrimental effects for them. I went on very, very long walks when I couldn’t get away from family/room-mates/ect. Habit seems to have stuck.
My grandfather died ten years ago. His wife and daughter are still complaining about him retreating to his cave.
My husband “caves” behind his laptop. Sometimes he’s at the kitchen table, sometimes the living room, sometimes the basement. He pretends to be “working on something” but often I see him just staring blankly at the wall.
“The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”
YES! I love that book. Changed my marriage completely. I never really understood guys before that. My favorite quote:
“What do men want? If I’m not horny, make me a sandwich.”
I read that in complete disbelief. It CAN’T be that simple. So I quoted it to my husband and said, “Is that really true?” He ruminated for a while and replied, “Well, sometimes I like cake instead of a sandwich.” LOL!
Another good book is The Case for Marriage.
I am always willing to listen to good advice, especially that from folks who are older and wiser and obviously no more than spring chicken me.
Yes, I have an aunt who gives me great advice and is delightfully blunt.
I mean, 40 days and 40 nights anyone?
B&G:
“I read that in complete disbelief. It CAN’T be that simple.”
It is that simple, but only because men strive to make it simple. That is one of the purposes of the Cave. Look again at the process Zed describes. A man sorts through the 1000 possible things he might want and settles on the few he deems important. After that, it’s simple.
Great to see you here, Type 5!!!!!!!!!!
Great comment.
How’s it going?
Finestkind, zed!
A lot more relaxed once I became convinced the movement among men would thrive with or without me; this website being a case in point.
Is it time to close our old shop and consolidate? Are you still funding it?
It’s paid up through next summer. I’ve been keeping an eye out for someone to hand the domains over to and let them carry on or start fresh.
Send me an email. Use the tab above. I’ve lost your email address if I ever had it.
Female Misogynist posted something shows the value of making men good sandwiches(seriously):
Fast food only WILL kill you, so this poor man was quite literally killed by the lack of his wife’s ability to make sandwiches!
I’d like to say that men are a little more complicated than that, but first things first.
My grandfather died ten years ago. His wife and daughter are still complaining about him retreating to his cave.
It appears he went to a more permanent cave just to escape from them.
You should send them this article, just so that your grandfather is more thoroughly acquitted of what they perceive as a flaw.
To Hestia,
You sure are a special woman.
Gosh Zed, for a man who isn’t trapped, you sure seem to know what it is all about.
Great piece, zed. Highly readable and to the point.
Reminds me a bit of the book “Where Men Hide,” which looks like a picture book but was actually rather insightful and well done.
One of the way that our modern culture is becoming more feminized is through all of these social networking systems that create an outlet where every single thought or feeling can be expressed and shared and commented on in real-time. Twitter, Myspace, Facebook. A lot of guys resist at first, because it feels wrong…but then they often get sucked in like everyone else.
I have to admit, I got a bit addicted myself and had to pull back recently because I found it all very effeminate and distasteful. Now I try to limit use to promoting my writing projects, which is why I started in the first place.
My whole house is my cave.
Caves are just about illegal in most municipalities if you are a married man.
My dad didn’t just have a Cave, he had a Shed!
It was his space, and you did not enter without permission, although sometimes I would sneak in when he wasn’t around to marvel and the tools, the projects, the handmade workbenches.
It was dim, and dusty and the ceiling cobwebbed, and it was all him.
By the time he died, the Shed had bred, and there were two. A smaller one he’d added to his collection had been sent over to live at my sister’s house.
After he died, my sister and I went through his possessions from the inside the house, and my brother cleared out the shed.
As he said, who on earth has 8 rolls of solder?
If you needed him, he was there, and if he could make it, he made it in there.
You can’t keep a man from his Cave. It’s criminal and inhumane.
The Cave has the added bonus of a safe place for the family in the event of a Zombie outbreak.
Fast food only WILL kill you, so this poor man was quite literally killed by the lack of his wife’s ability to make sandwiches!
I agree. Good home cooking is completely underrated.
My mother cooked for us every night and made our lunches for school/work every morning, despite working full-time outside of the home. We were all thin, trim, and healthy. I continued that after leaving the house (cooking for myself) but once the kids were gone she lost interest. Within a year of eating out regularly my parents had both gained considerable amounts of weight and were on high blood pressure medication. My father is now developing diabetes and my mother went through premature menopause and is taking steroids for thyroidism.
She should’ve just kept cooking.
I’ve had the same thought, really. At times there is just so much interaction and sharing that it gets inane. I suppose that there are also more introverted men than there are introverted women, on average, and that adds to the cave needs. I know that I need the cave, big-time — always have.
That’s why I’m not trapped, julie.
ROFL !!!
That goes for me too…No cages, please
At times there is just so much interaction and sharing that it gets inane.
Not to mention quite narcissistic and tiresome. There are people on my FB friends list who post non-stop, with thousands upon thousands of inane and frivolous links shared during their time on FB. Several post so often that I have had to ignore their updates or else I can’t see updates from anybody else when I check my FB twice a day.
FB is great for promoting writing as mentioned above or to keep in touch with faraway family and friends which was the reason I signed up (It’s the only pic sharing site my non-computer savvy parents could master.
, but FB shouldn’t be the sounding board for each and every thought that it has turned into for some!
But then again the internet in general seems to be like this and as an introvert I often have to step back from the Great Never-ending Conversation that is the e-world or else be very overwhelmed from what pretty much amounts to information overload. Something tells me I’m not the only one!
Comment_Whatever:Fast food only WILL kill you, so this poor man was quite literally killed by the lack of his wife’s ability to make sandwiches!
This can be seconded by women buying towel sizes appropriate for themselves but not size appropriate for the husband: a man being larger and having body hair needs a larger plusher towel; instead, if he doesn’t take action, he will wind up using talcum powder: breathing this is not good for you. My mother has said that my father was always using powder and that this may have contributed to his death: my mother only purchased small and thin towels. Freud would have called that homicide.
I’m on Facebook but I just can’t really deal with it. TMI and too much inane stuff. I’ve considered defriending the worst offenders. I do like it for sharing photos of my kids with my friends.
Something tells me I’m not the only one!
No, you’re not. I crave intellectual stimulation and the Internet is every SAHM’s best friend in that regard. But sometimes it’s just too much. And a lot of the stuff just seems stupid. Most of the Internet is like a combination tabloid/porn magazine.
I heard this on the radio today:
http://blog.taragana.com/e/2009/10/23/allen-quits-social-networking-sites-for-boyfriend-46378/
My thought was: good for him! Sometimes you just have to put your foot down.
My husband’s Internet rules for me are simple: I’m not allowed to neglect my household duties or blow off the kids (and my son will tell on me, the traitor), I’m not allowed to stay up at night for it, I’m not allowed to write anything he’s not allowed to see (as in, no flirting), and if he tells me to get off I have to go IMMEDIATELY. He will actually switch the computer off if I don’t react fast enough. Otherwise I can do as I like.
I think he’s actually grateful that I write so much online because it saves him from being yapped at all evening. I am very verbose and if I didn’t write so much I’d have to T.A.L.K.
””””””””My husband’s Internet rules for me are simple: I’m not allowed to neglect my household duties or blow off the kids (and my son will tell on me, the traitor), I’m not allowed to stay up at night for it, I’m not allowed to write anything he’s not allowed to see (as in, no flirting), and if he tells me to get off I have to go IMMEDIATELY. He will actually switch the computer off if I don’t react fast enough. Otherwise I can do as I like.
I think he’s actually grateful that I write so much online because it saves him from being yapped at all evening. I am very verbose and if I didn’t write so much I’d have to T.A.L.K.
””””””””””
The drawbacks to woman who can read are boundless in the internet age.
I like to call it la la time. But yea not doing shit. Don’t mind the woman coming to deliver sustenance in the form of cigerettes or drinks though maybe some light petting. No talking.
Black&German,
I don’t have a husband to keep me in check
but I have a number of friends who continuously tell me to get off the net and live real life. I also get told most people on the net aren’t well and that this is their main way of socialising so it is nice to hear from you. I don’t believe most people online are sick.
Me, well, I put my children first because I wanted to and if I was to get involved in a greater social life I would need to be committed to other people. I even work for myself and all the clients I have know that my children come first. I will walk away from work when I get a phone call they are in trouble in a heartbeat and believe me there were a lot of phone calls.
But now time has passed and my youngest is on his feet. Just got his license 2 days ago. So, my life begins at 40 with no commitments to anyone but myself. As soon as I have finished this semester of extra schooling online, I am free to do what ever I want and I have big plans.
For those who are extremely extroverted, sometimes the cave is other people. Sometimes a football game, some chicken wings and maybe a cold one (or two) with the guys is all you need to sort stuff out.
I also get told most people on the net aren’t well and that this is their main way of socializing so it is nice to hear from you. I don’t believe most people online are sick.
Pretty much everybody in my generation is online.
It’s not actually my main way of socializing. As much as I write, I talk even more. *cringe* I’m a former cheerleader so you can imagine the kind of chatty, cheerful type I am. Or, as Roissy said (and he hit the nail on the head, unfortunately):
The squirrels in my head just won’t SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Like I said, my husband is grateful if I work off enough of my words before he comes home. And if I’m really good then he doesn’t hide behind his computer as much and will actually seek me out to converse with. He’s just afraid of being hit with a flood of words as soon as he says, “How was your day?” LOL. Actually, lately I’ve been posting so much that he’s started to complain that I don’t talk ENOUGH.
I usually spend weekends at my parents’ house or visiting friends and relatives. We have a big extended family. And, of course, both of my kids are in preschool, story time at the library, swim lessons, speech therapy, religious education, etc., so my main job is as chauffeur.
I’m not missing socialization, I’m missing interesting conversation, which is something else entirely. And something that is hard to find at play group, unfortunately.
I made the mistake of telling my husband about the squirrels and now every time I start running off at the mouth (what he likes to call “verbal diarrhea”) he interrupts with, “Um, Honey. The squirrels are at it again.” Oh, yeah. Oops.
Black&German, You are a good sort. It is enjoyable to cross you path.
Whoa. I just checked out the Amazon page for The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands and found the 1-star reviews rather entertaining.
Black&German, You are a good sort. It is enjoyable to cross you path.
Thanks. I’ll take the compliment with a grain of salt. I get that a lot and then I say something that they don’t like and it’s, “Off with her head!” LOL.
Black&German,
Black&German, You are a good sort. It is enjoyable to cross you path.
I think I understand what you mean. But as a person you are a good sort. Whether you clash with other’s opinion is a whole other matter.
Obvoiusly both of you would frolic in your mans cave
To Gunslingergregi
I think the best thing to do under the circumstances is just apologise for my words.
Some spontaneous head usually hastens my exit from The Cave.
Oh, great advice/reminder! John Gray from the Mars-Venus books also emphasizes the cave concept, by the way.
What about the concept of “rubberbanding,” by the way? There’s a saying that men rubberband; they’ll have moments of doubt when getting to know a woman, and will stretch away from her all of a sudden. He might disappear for some days and not call, or seem distant. This is because he’ll all feel the urge to bolt so he can stay independent and not be stuck with one woman, or he’ll start to wonder if there’s something better out there, etc. If the man likes the woman enough, the rubberband will bring him back to her and he’ll be ready to go to the next level. If he doesn’t, it will snap and he will break up with her. Would be interesting if any of the guys on Spearhead think that’s a good way to think about it or just pop theory.
Also, it’s funny because if girl says she prefers the man to make most of the moves, some guys think that’s “playing games.” But things like a man going into a cave, a man wanting to feel independent, a man wanting to feel like the leader, a man having to make the big decision to commit to one woman… it’s hard to respect those without letting the guy make most of the moves with approaching, calling, going out, calling more, becoming exclusive, getting married, etc. Not all moves, just most so he’s doing these things because he wants to not because the girl initiated them and he’s going along.
Some spontaneous head usually hastens my exit from The Cave.
That was completely facetious… but true. LOL.
John Gray from the Mars-Venus books also emphasizes the cave concept, by the way.
I was just thinking about that! The Mars/Venus books already debunked the “men are women with penises” theory. Way back in the 90s.
I’m reading a lot on Spearhead about “women wanting to be equals with men”. I think that that is absolutely right. Women ARE equals with men. The disagreement starts when you start to see women as THE SAME as men. We’re different, mentally, physically, biologically. The sum of our parts create a being of equal worth but the result may look/act/feel/think completely different. The traditional marriage roles were trying to reflect that difference and utilize the strengths of each gender to create a coherent, functioning whole. Because each individual person does not necessarily reflect the “average” of his/her gender the roles can grate a bit. But they fit most people adequately.
This is the “we are all the same” race fallacy I hear a lot. White people and black people are not the same. They are different. But they are equal.
At least that’s how I see things.
*nodding*
Which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead? Equal? Yes. The same? No.
Women are the ones who abandoned womanhood. Being a strong fantastic woman doesn’t seem to count with women nearly as much as “making it in a man’s world.” Sure, women can “out man men” – if they are given: affirmative action, preferential treatment, a massive body of federal and state laws, and differing standards.
What’s the point? Running away from what you are in order to become something you aren’t has never been a path to happiness and satisfaction with your life and yourself.
Great comment, B&G.
“Women ARE equals with men. The disagreement starts when you start to see women as THE SAME as men.”
Why do you think the majority of the men in athletics are black ? Because in average they are better physically than the white man or the asian man. Why this simple fact cannot be true for men vs women?
———————————————-
Concerning the cave, it surprised me that the author nailed -every points- about something I was doing , but never consciously. When I have big things happening in my life, I find myself lightening a cigar and then going for a long walk near the water. Those two activities help me focus the conscious brain, to free my mind for a full introspection. By the way spection is from greek “spelaion” that means cave.
Interesting. Thus, “introspection” literally means “into the cave.”
Being a strong fantastic woman doesn’t seem to count with women nearly as much as “making it in a man’s world.”
That’s quite sad, really. Being a woman is actually quite wonderful.
That’s quite sad, really. Being a woman is actually quite wonderful.
It is. I mean, being who I am, I find it’s fairly natural for me to fulfill one role or the other–I mean, I was happiest in my marriage and my life when I was a SAHM and could focus my energy and identity in one direction. But the more of the man’s role I have to fill, the more of my innate male traits rise to the surface, and you can’t have a marriage with 1 1/2 men and 1/2 a woman. You just can’t.
As far as future relationships go, if I end up with a man, I’ll end up gravitating toward traditional female role the way I did before. There’s something really satisfying and easy about being in that role. It feels natural. It’s gratifying in ways that go right to the soul. And I just don’t see the typical lesbian or bi woman being willing to be wife/mother in the way I’d need to be able to slip completely into the male role.
As far as the cave goes, I remember my grandmother bemoaning my grandfather’s forays out to the garage to play with his tablesaw. She’d be in the house counting his beer cans and muttering under her breath that he was going to cut his fingers off. She never went in and bugged him, though. The cave was the cave, and it was sacred.
Well, sadly, there are a lot of women who do not agree with that. Here is an interesting excerpt from the introduction to Maria Shriver’s new “report” – “A Woman’s Nation.”
Well, she has “succeeded” so well that she is now claiming that it is no longer a “a man’s world”, but rather “a woman’s world” now. I’m sure women like kis will be mollified by the fact that the world now “belongs” to them, as they struggle to make ends meet and be both parents to their children.
Maria Shriver has declared that the Gender War is over, and women have won. But, what in the world did they win?
The themes of competitition and retribution have long been present in the rhetoric of Team Woman – “Women on Top”, “Women Getting Even.” From the male POV, it looks to me that all women have “won” is the dummy prize. Now they get to slave their lives away in the mind-numbing, soul-destroying, cubes of the corporate and bureaucratic worlds. They get to pay the dregs of the educational system minimum wage for the job of raising their children, and immigrant women to clean their houses.
And, men like kis’s husband get to marry multiple times, including once to a woman who claims she was a “10″, has huge breasts, and gave him all the kinky sex he wanted on demand, while he kicked back, went along for the ride, and spent hours and hours playing WoW.
Who really won what, here?
I think it was Germaine Greer who years ago said that she thought the perfect lover for a woman would be a man without a penis. Sounds a lot like kis, to me. She might just be the perfect lover for a woman.
But, at the same time, she also gives the ultimate punch line for what really is the ultimate male fantasy, and the goal of Game for guys like Roissy –
From the stereotypical male perspective, it don’t get no better than that, bubba!
Yeah, for a nice, traditional feminine woman who wants to stay home and take care of things while I bring home the bacon. Don’t find too many of those in LGBT circles.
I’m quite comfortable in either the male or female role–I just find it really difficult to play them both at the same time. It’s confusing and saps all your energy. It’s easier now that I’ve separated. There’s 1/2 a woman and 1/2 a man in the house, which is a more balanced ratio than what it was, but there’s still a lot of stress. It’s like being pulled in eight directions at once. I miss the early days of my marriage, when everything was so freaking simple.
Well, hell. Maybe I should start angling for that engagement ring, Zed. You may be an old guy, but I bet you’re still pretty hot, and I’m more than frugal enough to live off a retiree’s fixed income.
Aw, c’mon, kis, we wouldn’t want to ruin this great internet banter we’ve got going by letting sex make it all sticky and complicated. Let’s Just Be Friends, eh?
I think it was Germaine Greer who years ago said that she thought the perfect lover for a woman would be a man without a penis.
No way. A penis is mandatory.
Tell that to Lorena Bobbitt, and all the women who cheered her on, and so enjoyed making men uncomfortable with their “scissors events.”
Something that I’ve been wondering about.
Do women have some sort of a “cave” of their own? Don’t wives and mothers need time to themselves as well? If they don’t have a cave, what is it about women that makes them not need one?
I think that a woman’s cave is her telephone.
OMG, NO. Okay, maybe I’m weird, but I hate the phone. Don’t own a cell phone and won’t until the distant future when land lines are finally phased out.
I need a cave. When my kids were really little, it was during naptime. But they gave up naps at 1 1/2. So then it was after everyone else had gone to bed. My ex used to bristle that I wasn’t coming to bed with him, but I needed an hour or two every day to just be alone. Once the older two were in school, all day from 9 to 3 was my cave.
Although my cave wasn’t a specific place. It was just any place where I could be by myself.
Okay, maybe I’m weird, but I hate the phone.
Same here. But I’m the other way around: I have a cell but no landline.
I cave at the gym or on the couch with a good book.
But, you know, we ARE weird, Kis.
The fact that men tend to want a specific place to have as a cave is the important point here; the idea of men “cave-ing” just by being on the phone or reading a book would–to many men–be ludicrous, whereas it seems natural–to some women–to say that they have an analogous experience in these activities. I don’t know whether or not such activities really are analogous, nor do I know if there are women who have an actual cave in the usual male sense of the term. What I can say is that it is important for those who believe they can engage in “cave” behavior without a specific physical location as a cave to realize that most men can’t do so. If you like evolutionary psychological explanations for this sort of thing, I suggest the following:
In pre-historic times, early men would have had basically two overarching states of being–out hunting, and not out hunting. In the out hunting state, constant situational awareness was necessary, both to find prey and to avoid becoming the lunch of predators. In the not out hunting state, all the concerns for other things that might be going on could be stripped away, and the man could focus on things like building tools, developing hunting strategies, procreating, and figuring out whether it is easier to move stuff by rolling it on square things or round things. The men who could turn off their situational awareness while out hunting starved, were eaten, or both. The men who couldn’t focus on invention while not out hunting (except when procreation was available) were outcompeted by those who could.
So what’s the moral of this little story? To switch from the “out hunting” state to the “not out hunting” state, men have to get the appropriate signal that it is okay to do so. This isn’t an inter-human signal, it’s an environmental one; they need to feel like the location they are in is their cave–which is why no one else should be re-arranging it, redecorating it, or even cleaning it (beyond the basic levels of human hygiene–the dangers of rotting food are greater than the benefits that come from having half-eaten pizza decorating the floor and walls); if they need uneven stacks of papers lying about to feel like they are in their cave, the closest acceptable replacement might be sculptures visibly indistinguishable from the real thing.
Recap, plus advice:
–a cave is a place in space, not a period in time, or any particular activity
–it is ill advised to bring food to a man in his cave; he will lose the connection between going “out hunting” and getting things he needs…it’s less of a problem if he brings food back there since he will at least switch to “out hunting” mode when he leaves to get it; to make sure he does, I recommend talking with him while he’s out–if he complains that this has broken his concentration, he hasn’t switched modes properly, and you should tell him that you would prefer that he leave for food at a better break point in the future so that you can talk (if appropriate, promise to re-warm his food for him)
–similarly, do not let him keep snacks in his cave (and if you are a man and keep snacks in your cave, I strongly recommend you stop)
–it is perfectly acceptable (to most men at any rate; I can’t guarantee all, but I expect all) to use sex to get a man to leave his cave, so long as sex actually happens afterwards…if you use sex to get a man to leave his cave, but then don’t follow through, don’t be surprised if it doesn’t work again–possibly ever
–hand in hand with that, never have sex in the cave, or it will be much more difficult to get the man to leave the cave in order to have sex
–if you think a man is spending too much time in his cave, positive conditioning (rewarding him for spending less time in the cave) will probably work much better than negative conditioning (punishing him for spending time there)… this is true even if you ARE the man in question
Ah… okay. Then I guess I don’t “cave”. I just like some peace and quiet sometimes.
An understandable and entirely human desire. I don’t know of any particular universal (or near universal) foibles for how women prefer such things, so if you can think of any, I would be most appreciative of being enlightened.
Arbitrary, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, the inverse would have required the cavewoman to leave the cave in order to switch states of awareness–no cookfire to watch, no babies to deal with, nothing demanding your attention. Unfortunately, a cavewoman leaving the cave only replaced one state of constant situational awareness (tending the home) with another (trying not to get eaten or grabbed by a neighboring tribe or whatever). So I think cavewomen either had to develop a “mode2″ refocusing of awareness inward that wasn’t dependent on getting out of the “mode1″ place, but was more about the circumstances of the moment–or develop a communal cave state where they all hung out “in the cave” together.
No communal cave for me. I’m an introvert. I need that time alone. It’s why I almost never napped while my kids napped. I tried doing that, and found that I was a better mother if I gave myself that time to just veg or do something repetitive and mindless or read a book (or write one) than wasting it on sleep.
In fact, I’ve actually found migraines are my best friends in this regard these days. I can’t really justify doing nothing anymore. But when my head hurts so bad I can’t do anything–even watch TV–and can’t sleep, I have an excuse to just lie there with my eyes closed and my mind wandering.
I’ve had sticking points of the plots of books I’m writing suddenly seem to resolve out of thin air during those times. Like a lightbulb going on after weeks of agonizing got me nowhere. It’s effortless, but it takes time and quiet.