I understand honor as a system of accounting for men’s souls. There are credits and debits, investments, loans, outstanding debts. Honor is gained, wagered, lost and regained. In the best case scenario, a man accumulates enough wealth to withstand inevitable short-term losses and indignities. Substantial achievements offer a cushion, a safety net pop psychologists refer to as “security.” Luxury is not having to worry about the little stuff.
Like my pal’s dad. He volunteered for a second tour in ‘Nam so his brother wouldn’t have to go. So what if he reps out his bench presses with ABBA blaring in his headphones. He earned it, and he sure as hell doesn’t need my approval. Not too many guys have portfolios that contain valor these days.
Honor can be a confusing term because it is often used so casually. At the most mundane level it has come to mean merely “good” or “to hold in high esteem.” Honor roll, “honor diversity,” “honor the earth,” Honor Golden Retrievers. I am speaking of honor in a less pedestrian sense.
James Bowman, in Honor – A History, wrote of both reflexive honor and cultural honor. Bowman’s reflexive honor could also be described as “face”—the need to respond to an attack or an insult to avoid looking weak or inferior. His cultural honor “comprises the traditions, stories and habits of a particular society about (among other things) the proper and improper uses of violence.” He also reminds readers in his introduction to the concept that “in spite of the discrediting that honor has undergone, the basic honor of the savage—bravery for men, chastity for women—is still recognizable beneath the surfaces of the popular culture that has done so much to efface it. If you doubt it, try calling a man a wimp or a woman a slut.”
Building on Bowman’s ideas, a man’s honor is his private and public sense of worth as a man. Honor is a reputation for strength and the courage to use it when necessary to defend that sense of masculinity. The female shaming language often discussed here works precisely because it taps into a man’s need to defend his honor. If he feels he has been shamed or that he has dishonored himself, he wants to balance his books somehow.
When men compete with each other, provided that it is a fair fight—“apples to apples”—men gain honor for more than just winning. They gain honor from having the courage to fight in the first place, for what dog fighters call gameness—perseverance, spunk, determination. Men respect other men who show courage, even if they almost always lose. Men in competition with each other are esteemed, win or lose, for good sportsmanship, fairness, heart, even compassion—all aspects of Bowman’s cultural honor.
One time I ended up in a half-drunken sparring match with a buddy of mine. He loved to fence with shinai, and no one else at the party would do it. So I went out and played samurai with him for a few minutes. His bamboo sword left my forehead bleeding. But that didn’t matter. I know I gained his respect and we became better friends that night. Poetically, our friendship also ended over a matter of honor, years later.
Competition with women is almost always a net loss of honor for a man. Men don’t consider competition between men and women to be “apples to apples.” And I don’t think women do either.
To clarify, I’m not talking about “play” competition. Playing against your girl on a video game or a board game or miniature golf doesn’t count. I’m talking about competition that matters.
A woman has much to gain and very little to lose by competing with a man who she thinks she can beat. No one will think her less of a woman for losing, because womanhood has nothing to do with competing with men. But if she beats a man, it will be a triumph of David over Goliath. Men will cheer her on, because in squaring off with a man she shows courage, and everyone loves an underdog.
But what does the man have to gain? He shows no courage by entering the ring with a woman. He is expected to win. If he does, his victory is shallow and unsavory. He gains no honor in beating a woman—the idea is offensive even to a modern man’s vestigial sense of chivalry. Imagine the sportscaster shouting about how he “really slaughtered her.” How ignoble!
And if he loses, the loss is so much more humiliating. While her womanhood is never in question, his masculinity is on the line. He ends up looking like a poor specimen of manhood. Women won’t respect him, and men will be ashamed to be associated with him. He would be better loved by all for cheating and obviously throwing the fight, or for graciously bowing out. To give maximum effort and be bested by a woman is emasculating, no two ways about it. The same rules simply don’t apply. “Apples and oranges.”
Dude, you got ownd by a girl!
This all probably seems pretty obvious to most men. Somewhere deep in your left nut you know that competition with women is a net loss of honor. But I wonder if those honorable instincts are handicaps for men who, in our society, are expected to compete with women for things that matter. When you find yourself in direct, serious competition with women, do you pull back? Do you opt out? Do you go in swinging and come out feeling depleted and ambivalent? If you agree that there is no honorable triumph over a woman—save in the bedroom or in matters of romance—how does that affect the decisions you make in life?
And, as it pertains to The Spearhead, how do you feel when you tell a female or a feminist “what’s what.” What have you gained when, in your eyes, you’ve won an argument with a feminist? Was it worth your time? It’s something to think about.
{ 137 comments… read them below or add one }
Great article. I like articles that deal with the concept of Honor. It needs to be defined by men since we are the only ones who have it and we are the only ones who have any use for it.
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Very true. In his book Why Women and Power Don’t Mix, J. P. McDermott pointed out that men have a strong drive for status and it can only be gotten in competition with other men. For women, just a chance to “play with the big boys” is exciting, but all men can get from competing with women is a loss of status.
One of the problems with this is that if too many women enter some realm, the men leave in search of greener pastures where they can compete with other men. Pretty soon, the only realms of achievement for men will be in computer programming (few women are interested in doing that), sports, and crime. Great move, feminism, driving men to crime!
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Agree. I’ll liken this to when I used to play pick-up basketball and there was a girl on the opposing team…and I ended up guarding her, and her me (man defense, there is no zone in pick up).
In any case, I cannot play 100% because it would be deemed unfair. similar to:
Imagine the sportscaster shouting about how he “really slaughtered her.” How ignoble!. I don’t even try to block a shot…if I block her, so what? Nobody cheers. I look like an ass. Can’t body up hard, because unless she is taller than me, I still outweigh her and most likely can push her over with little effort.
On the flipside, she is playing her heart out. I’ve received more than enough scratches on my hands/arms (cut nails pls, thanks) from playing against girls.
Never did play against the B-ball girls in college, the ones actually on the Div 1 team, because in all likelihood they would whoop my ass. And, I’ll just end up looking like a tool if i 1) win playing hard or 2) lose playing hard or 3) lose not trying.
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Interesting question and it doesn’t have just to do with men vs women, but with fighting an indisputably weaker opponent in general.
This is an issue Western armies have to deal with when striving to create morale amongst their troops. Western armies are in general so massively better than the armies they fight that somehow it feels slightly dishonoring to even go into battle – if the Americans win against Iraq, it proves nothing as that’s entirely expected, yet if they lose or mess up, they are humiliated. A proud and aggressive man eager to prove himself is bound to feel profoundly ambivelant when going into war against the typical enemies American armies have faced, because he gains no honor by victory and success, and yet if he makes mistakes he loses honor. Why risk your life when there is no opportunity to gain honor?
Israel has been struggling with this issue in motivating their soldiers for some time now – the Israeli army has demonstrated such a massive superiority to Arab forces over the past few decades that, paradoxically, the motivation to fight and the “heroic ethos” have been undermined as a result. There is no honor in winning against an opponent so much weaker than you and over which you have triumphed again and again, so why even risk your life or give it your all? You have nothing to prove and there is no prize for you to win – if you win the fight, you have gained nothing, certainly not honor or reputation, while if you lose or mess up in any way, it’s kind of pathetic. Israel has been struggling with serious issues of apathy and distaste for combat in its young men who see no glory in fighting their country’s enemies, who they see as irrevocably inferior to them in fighting ability. At best it is a dirty and distasteful necessity where the prime consideration becomes getting out alive rather than earning distinction for yourself, as that is seen as impossible.
It is a problem faced by all Western armies. It’s interesting how success ca undermine you in unforeseen ways.
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Great move, feminism, driving men to crime!
This may be a troubling but necessary step towards the destruction of feminism (i.e. the physical safety of unmarried urban women going down). I hate to say it, but it is probably true.
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Mr. M and Greg –
Interesting points/additions.
A friend of mind and I have an ongoing discussion about honor, including honor between unevenly matched opponents, where the “underdog” shows heart. A really problematic example is this kid, Dustin Carter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvxc8S5ybS4
On one hand, Carter shows tremendous heart and he deserves applause. But I also feel sorry for the kids who have to wrestle him. If they win–they beat a guy with no arms or legs. If they lose, they lose to a guy with no arms or legs. There is only a net loss of honor for Carter’s challenger. The best thing you can say is that he’s being compassionate by giving the kid a shot. But…geez.
Obama’s Nobel Prize is without honor for the same reasons.
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Honor was created for ensure both cooperation and fair competiviness to males. It isn’t something to be used for the “all advantages, no responsabilities” feminist approach. Period.
Obama’s Nobel Prize is just the cerry in the pie of blowjobs that he has been getting from the media and the left (spitshines included).
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the greatest mra of the last century, hands down, was andy kaufman
he rassled the Redneck King in the south, with the locals screaming for his blood — then he’d taunt them with his Mr. Hollywood/I’m a liberal shtick and REALLY peg their bloodpressures (just like some of yours now lol)
that not sufficing, he was also the (self-proclaimed) Intergender Wrestling Champion of the World — rubbing America’s face in its misandry and chivalrous cowardice decades ago, when feminism was essentially unchallenged and unchallengeable
he turned masculine honor rightside up not by avoiding combat with females, but by recognizing their hatreds (and the general populist misandry) and making their sickness evident and undeniable to all
damn, did Ms. Amerika hate andy! . . . i can still hear the crowds screaming for the girls to murder him . . . i’ll always cherish the looks of flabbergasted disappointment on their throbbing red faces. . .
be seein ya, andy
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Reading this, it was interesting to consider the theory that manhood can only be bestowed by the fraternity of other men. This post serves to reinforce that view.
“If you agree that there is no honorable triumph over a woman—save in the bedroom or in matters of romance—how does that affect the decisions you make in life?…What have you gained when, in your eyes, you’ve won an argument with a feminist? Was it worth your time?”
To be honest, I haven’t given this much thought. Perhaps the fembots have had their victory in that I don’t see a female opponent as anything other than an equal, vying to win just as much as I do.
In fact, I think less of a man who does pull his punches, literally or figuratively, when in open competition with a woman. He is hopelessly behind the times and is actively working to sustain the culture that oppresses men for the benefit of women. His actions reinforce the notion that a female should be treated with kid gloves because she has a vag. Which chicks both take advantage of when it suits their purposes, and decry when it suits their purposes. A guy that acts like this perpetuates the social notion that a boy automatically loses by being in competition with a girl.
I’m willing to permit a special space for women apart from that of men, in which women are treated as different than men and therefore not legitimate objects to be competed with, but that assumes that women themselves don’t venture from that space and challenge me. If they do so, then they have entered the masculine sphere and I am duty bound by the rules of that sphere to act as I would to any other man.
In other words, I am inclined to treat her like a woman if she acts like it. If she steps to me like a man, then I’ll treat her as such as well. With all the positive and negative consequences thereto.
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The Fifth Horseman:
” Great move, feminism, driving men to crime!
This may be a troubling but necessary step towards the destruction of feminism (i.e. the physical safety of unmarried urban women going down). I hate to say it, but it is probably true.”
You cannot change something that is evil, by protecting its advocates from the consequences of their bad behavior and values. I don’t find this troubling, it is long overdue.
As for the rest, I think honor in our society, like niceness, is a vice now, not a virtue.
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I would say that when in competition with a woman, I am more competitive — for the reasons you point out: if I lose, it is MUCH worse, from both male and female perspectives, than having lost to another guy. And if I win, I preserve the status quo. Even if women are very smart and worthy opponents, in this culture they are always assumed to be the underdog if you are a white male. So you FIGHT and you WIN. That’s all.
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Nova’s got a point. There may not be any honor in fighting the feminists, but sometimes you’ve just got to take out the garbage.
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I go looking for arguments with feminists. It’s never an easy because when you start picking on a girl the white knights show up. so it turns into a 5, 6, or 7 on one fight. But I’ve had my wins. And even though the best case scenario is everyone on the board stops posting and the thread dies it’s still worth it just to shut them up.
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1) Games: Do not compete with indisputably weaker opponents. Teach her. Toy with her. Often, teach her by toying with her. Only when she acknowledges your superiority, may you have an honest relationship, based on play.
2) Life: Be dominant. If a woman attacks you physically, master her. The best way to preserve honor in this case is to master her without any harm to her or to yourself.
With respect to other men, perhaps in the workplace: if he is better than you in a certain way, respect that. We are not Arabs; we need not envy. We do not lose face in submitting to those with greater skill, in the arena where that skill rules.
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A pal reminded me that I forgot to work something into this that we were talking about the other night over beers.
When dealing with feminists, sometimes the best answer is just, “NO.”
As Sean Connery said, “They can’t leave it alone. They have to have the last word, and you give them the last word, but they’re not happy with the last word, they want to say it again and get into a really provocative situation…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgMLROTqJ0
I’ve been arguing with feminists and fags (who argue like women) for years, and I’ve just noticed that they don’t play by the same rules, they have no honor, and they end up dragging you down into their honorless ghetto with them. It may be a personal thing, but I always feel less dignified even when I feel confident that I’ve won. This doesn’t apply to criticizing their ideas from afar, it only applies to direct confrontation. If you win, they won’t get it, because it is impossible for them, for the most part, to truly understand a man’s point of view. Perhaps, in part, this is because women are used to being able to run their mouths without considering the consequences of doing so. Men live in a world where having words someone who is physically threatening is like poking a grizzly bear. Women are protected (by men), and live in a fantasy world where they can say almost anything to anyone without fear of physical reprisal.
To those of you who think a lady is a lady only insofar as she acts like one (which I agree with in principal), where would you draw the line? Would it be equally OK, or equally wrong, to strike her? Would you forgive a man for striking another man sooner?
“What have you gained when, in your eyes, you’ve won an argument with a feminist?”
Liken this to apologetics. Almost all live-action apologetical displays are for the benefit of the undecided onlooker, not the antagonist. In most cases, one does not care what the benighted opponent thinks. Convincing her is not the reason for the fight.
Feminists are the Mouse that Roared. They have won in the absence of a response.
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Jack Donovan: “they don’t play by the same rules, they have no honor”
Black Knights do not fight churls. We make examples of them.
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Eumaios -
With respect to other men, perhaps in the workplace: if he is better than you in a certain way, respect that. We are not Arabs; we need not envy. We do not lose face in submitting to those with greater skill, in the arena where that skill rules.
With men, I tend to agree. Part of being a man, I think, is learning to accept and deal with issues of hierarchy. Every man is born with certain aptitudes and limitations, and if you do your best–I think most men agree that this is the most they can expect from you. You can’t expect a guy who is 110lbs to choke slam a guy who is 25olbs of muscle. I know a lot of smaller guys who grapple with the reality of this, and they (like me, and every man) have to recognize their place in the scheme of things and just do their best.
Relevant to the discussion, I would say, are weight classes in sports. Men don’t expect flyweights to compete with heavyweights. It’s not, as I alluded above–apples to apples.
I would say that a man and woman, even if they weigh the same and (?!!?) lift the same, will always be apples and oranges in the eyes of men.
And by the way…I’m not accusing any men here for arguing with feminists. I don’t really think less of anyone for doing so.
This is just my personal opinion after years of doing this. I just think shutting them out and refusing to acknowledge them as peers is one of the most effective and most efficient strategies. If there’s one thing a woman HATES it is being IGNORED.
Jack Donovan: “To those of you who think a lady is a lady only insofar as she acts like one (which I agree with in principal), where would you draw the line? Would it be equally OK, or equally wrong, to strike her? Would you forgive a man for striking another man sooner?”
When my young sons have become infuriated beyond their ability to control themselves, they will occasionally strike me in the face. I find that the effective response is not a normal punishment, but an immediate, humbling assertion of mastery: an open-handed cuff to the side of the head that stings, startles, and shocks. We strike each other harder in play-fights, without pause or concern. But in a situation of defiance, an apparent de-escalation can be immensely effective. “You presume to injure me, but I need only show you your place.”
My wife, when she has become infuriated beyond her ability to control herself, invariably attacks me. I have historically responded by restraining her, or by removing myself. This is wrong. It would have been better to turn her over my knee. You presume to injure me, but I need only show you your place.
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Jack Donovan: “I just think shutting them out and refusing to acknowledge them as peers is one of the most effective and most efficient strategies. If there’s one thing a woman HATES it is being IGNORED.”
Right, if the woman is the only other actor involved. In the naked public square, this strategy allows the erosion of civilization.
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I know what you mean, Eumaios. Obviously, I do not recommend silence.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/18/writing-about-men-is-important/
Their ideas have to be attacked and, frankly, mocked.
I guess what I mean is that I feel like I lose a little something when I spar with them on a personal level. One thing I have found is that the Internet tends to equalize people who normally operate on different levels and in different ways. When my first book came out, I had a long, public argument (which I clearly won) with an hysterical admittedly bipolar 21 year old borderline transsexual. He attacked me as a peer, but in real life he would have hid in a corner. On the Internet, though, he positioned himself as a “scholar” (because he had a bachelors in sociology). It was an instructive experience. He was a fucked up little nut, but I treated him like a peer and spent hours of my own time “taking him to school.” I’ve had this experience a few times. I’m just saying it’s something to consider–I don’t know that I have a right or wrong answer.
Jack Donovan:
Are you saying that real life, transexuals would be afraid to get in a debate with you because they are all cowards or because you’d punch them out for daring to look at you cross-eyed?
With a few exceptions I’m mostly agreeing with your article and then I run into a comment that seems to imply that you think certain people, simply by who they are (not how they act ) are beneath you.
Am I wrong?
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Eumaios:
I respect men and women who are better than me at certain skills, just as I respect the traditional “women’s work”. It takes skill to knit and sew or make household products. I don’t know about you, but to me there is never dishonor in recognizing superior skill in someone regardless of race or sex, nor is there “dishonor” to learning things from other people.
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Well, actual transsexual males are a whole different ball of wax–they tend to be really scrappy. Despite the fact that they imagine themselves to be women, a lot of them would not think twice about throwing hands. They’re a very confused and angry bunch, in my experience.
Your average male “gender studies” type is another story. They’re mousy little gay nerds who are lashing out at men with words because they were bullied in high school. That sounds dismissive, because it is. Because it’s true. I’ve had friends that graduated from left wing “cultural studies” programs. All of their male peers were the same basic personality type.
By “beneath me” I just mean what men have always meant by that. I would not email Pat Buchanan like I was his peer, because I’m not. He wrote speeches for two presidents. I’m a fucking schmuck by comparison. Likewise, I think the Internet makes people feel more important than they are. A sociology major is not a “scholar” (he actually claimed to be this in a letter to a newspaper) and he was fucking 21 years old; I was 33 at the time. Engaging him was dishonorable on my part. If I had met him on the street, I wouldn’t have given him the time of day. But on the Internet…
clarence: Forty-five minutes ago, I praised a woman for her just-acquired ability to fold space, that is to turn one dimension into three, which is to say, to knit. Women excel at knitting, and they enjoy it. Men faced with this task … invent machines to do it for them.
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“I guess what I mean is that I feel like I lose a little something when I spar with them on a personal level.”
This is true. In these cases, we are taking one for the team.
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Jack Donovan: “A sociology major is not a ‘scholar’”
No, she’s a wrecker. A waste of good literacy. A burden to society. One less womb to fill with good seed.
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And don’t forget if you do win you’re an evil straight white man who used being part of the white heteropatriarchy to defeat her.
You might as well do whatever it takes to win against a woman since there are no better options. They won’t fight with honor as has been pointed out, and you don’t get points for fighting honorably. Either you’re a pathetic white man if you lose or an evil white man if you win so win because you’re screwed either way.
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Let me put it another way. On the Internet, 9 times out of 10, the “feminist” you are arguing with is not Gloria Steinem. It’s a spoiled little girl who takes her daddy’s money but thinks she’s a socialist, and who got an “A” in her “Women’s Studies” class.
@Jack Donovan
Ohhh. So that’s where all the emo kids go after high school. LOL.
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I respect men and women who are better than me at certain skills, just as I respect the traditional “women’s work”. It takes skill to knit and sew or make household products. I don’t know about you, but to me there is never dishonor in recognizing superior skill in someone regardless of race or sex, nor is there “dishonor” to learning things from other people.
Oh, thank god someone here sees it that way, or I’d never be able to bring myself to play pool or darts again. Most of the other players are men and I probably win 70% of the time. None of the men lately (I don’t think I played more than ten games during my marriage) seem to protest or feel put out, but I’d feel weird if I believed the mere act of me sinking the 8 ball was emasculating them or stripping them of their honor.
That said, I remember quite a few times playing my ass off at darts when I was 18-22 (drinking age is 18 where I lived), feeling like I’d hit a personal best, only to have some insecure young guy insist he let me win. The older guys never seemed to have a problem with me beating them, but those young guys just couldn’t deal with it. I remember a young male opponent watching me warm up, and then saying, “Nope, changed my mind.”
Yeah, I’d say the older men had more honor banked. Or maybe they’d come to realize pool and darts aren’t such gender-specific skill sets that losing to a woman is to lose face? More like losing to a woman on Jeopardy, or in a cooking contest.
Having read this post, though, I can see how my success at a lot of traditionally male undertakings would have emasculated my ex. At first, he thought it was cool, but the more shit I built and repaired, the less he liked it. I’d guess if I had contived to fuck something up really good–if the roof ended up leaking or I’d set the clothes on fire after fixing the dryer–he’d have felt better. He still wouldn’t have wanted to do those things, though.
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I’d say that pool and darts are pretty harmless…they almost fall in the miniature golf realm. Yes, older men usually have enough honor/manhood banked to be able to shrug their shoulders and not care. Though, the way things are going…who knows what today’s twentysomethings will feel like at 50. Today’s 50-somethings come from an entirely different world.
Women excel at knitting, and they enjoy it. Men faced with this task … invent machines to do it for them.
Hah! I can’t imagine a hobby I’d like to take up less. I’d rather eviscerate dead chickens than knit. Plus, I sucked balls at it. I did used to enjoy sewing, though, when I had the time for it.
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And don’t forget if you do win you’re an evil straight white man who used being part of the white heteropatriarchy to defeat her.
That’s the part that pisses me off so much. Feminist’s assertion that any opposition–especially if it’s even remotely successful–is just a big, mean man being big and mean. But when the only thing they have left to counter with is that you’re in denial of your male privilege, that’s when you’ve won.
I don’t know whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing that feminists don’t realize you’ve won. Or if onlookers realize it. But when “privilege” is the only counterargument you haven’t shot down, well…
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kis
Have you talked to 21Guns ?
He has an extensive list of 3D stuff you should have for your son !!!
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Jack Donovan:
Thank you for the answer to my question. Now I see what you meant. Sorry to think you might have had some irrational bigotry. Not that I’m trans, or would knowingly have one as a sex partner, but I can’t imagine not giving anyone basic human respect if they’ve done nothing not to merit otherwise.
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kis:
Thank you for your honest and illuminating and respectful posts despite some of the disagreements you’ve run into on this forum. At least some ladies can hang with the men here.
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Kimski:
Yup, I saw his post with the book recs. I’m going to get him at least two of them for Christmas if I can find them.
He’s a geek–although he’s going to be tall and handsome. But a geek at heart. Lucky for him, geeks are poised to take over the world.
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Clarence:
You’re welcome. I’ve been figuring out a lot of shit here, actually. I mean, some of the commenters here still raise my hackles a bit, but I can see why they say the stuff they do. And it’s helping me understand what went wrong with my marriage, hopefully so I don’t let the same shit happen again.
I kind of feel…privileged to have gotten the respect I have here, if that makes sense.
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kis
Thought you might be interested…
Geeks are cool–Intelligence is sexy, nowadays !!
When I was a kid, we used to kick the shit out of them…
Go figure
Did he find anything on Marvel Comics,com ???
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kis
I´ll keep looking for more free stuff, okay ???
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Did he find anything on Marvel Comics,com ???
He hasn’t been yet. I got home from work to find him on the couch instead of the computer. Shocked me speechless. Then he told me he felt like shit–headache and joint stiffness and a dry cough. And he was lying there uncomplaining while his sister watched Say Yes to the Dress or something, so I knew something was. terribly. WRONG.
Fever of 102. Hope it’s not swine flu. Sigh.
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And thanks, Kimski.
Anytime you and your wife find yourselves in the ass-end of nowhere where I live, let me know. I’ll set you up with some bitchin’ Chinese food and fill you full of beer.
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kis
LOL-Say Yes to the Dress-And it´s no wonder guys don´t watch TV…
Hope he´s okay !
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kis
Thanks, but I don´t drink alcohol–Could I have a cup of tea ???
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kis
Might not be that impossible–Iwas born in Lillooet, Vancouver,British Columbia, and plan to return one day !!
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Lillooet? Cool! That’s only a…let’s see…12 hour drive from where I live! That’s hardly a day trip in Canada, you know.
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kis
Just around the corner, actually…Lol!
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But WHY is that??? Why is losing to a woman so awful to men? We’re not talking about competition relying on strength (are we?) so why is he expected to win?
This may be obvious to you guys here so sorry if I don’t get it
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You don’t drink? Then how am I supposed to get you all hammered and have my wicked way with you?
Wait a minute. Does your girlfriend drink? What does she look like? What’s she wearing right now? Just curious… LOL
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kis
You could drive twice over the biggest landpiece in Denmark..hehe
Smmmaaaaalllllllll!!!
No mountains, and everything´s FLAT !!!
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kis
She drinks, and has the longest legs you ever saw !!!
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kis
Overshadows me, actually..Tall girl…;)
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kis
You´d probably have to whack me over my head with something heavy..;)
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kis
Shes 42, pretty, no kids, so she looks like shes 25-30…
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Renee
It´s a guy-thing…Don´t try to understand !!
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You could drive twice over the biggest landpiece in Denmark..hehe
Smmmaaaaalllllllll!!!
No mountains, and everything´s FLAT !!!
Oh yeah, been there. And never more than 35 miles from the beach.
I have cousins from Denmark who came for three weeks. My parents were in Alberta, I was out west here, and my sister was in Winnipeg. They said they’d never driven so much in their lives. They loved the trees and mountains in my region, but after driving through it for about half an hour, they were, “Isn’t there anything else?”
You´d probably have to whack me over my head with something heavy..;)
Okay, booze for her, blunt object for you. Gotcha.
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Kis
The true meaning of hammered !!–LOL!!
“isnt there anything else?”
WWHHHHAAAAATTTTT–!!!!!!
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Never did play against the B-ball girls in college, the ones actually on the Div 1 team, because in all likelihood they would whoop my ass. And, I’ll just end up looking like a tool if i 1) win playing hard or 2) lose playing hard or 3) lose not trying.
Similar experience here in that I frequently scrimmaged with an Australian Womens National B/ball League squad. Probably quite lower standard than the US equivalent but any of our NWBL teams would struggle against a merely reasonable mens’ team.
However I’m a strong supporter of elite women athletes being allowed to compete in some mens sport. Track and field would be a prime example. No physical contact is the key. I know from the women athletes I’ve had contact with that they wanted to compete against men because they’re sick of winning womens’ events by the length of the straight.
It was world class shot putter and power lifter, Bev Francis, who once said to me that being told she ran like a man was the greatest compliment she’d been paid – because men run perfectly.
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WWHHHHAAAAATTTTT–!!!!!!
You have to drive about two and a half hours through unpopulated forest to get to my town. No towns to drive through, just…trees and hills. So yeah, half an hour and they were tired of trees and hills.
It was more exciting when they hit that deer in Saskatchewan. I mean, a vast, flat ocean of wheat, dotted with barns and farmhouses and then BAM! Suddenly they’re eating airbag at 130kph.
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Jack, every article you write is increasingly impressive.
I will have to give some thought to a comment on this one, but for now — great work.
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Renee: “Why is losing to a woman so awful to men? … This may be obvious to you guys here so sorry if I don’t get it?”
1) It is obvious to men.
2) Your ability to ask the question redounds to your lasting credit.
3) I don’t have a good answer.
An attempt: In pre-Western cultures, by which I mean pre-Christian, it is awful for any man to lose to any other man. Shame and honor are a zero sum game. When Ajax gains honor, Ulysses is diminished, simply by the comparison.
Because of the singularity, these rules no longer apply to western civilization, by which I mean Christendom. Bowman writes a book that neither Donovan nor I could write, and we respect him for it. Donovan writes an article that I could not write, and I respect him for it. We participate in a dialogue that increases honor.
Most women cannot do, do not wish to do, what men value. Arm me with a glaive, and you also. Who triumphs? Arm me with a compiler, and you also. Arm me with words, and you also. Who triumphs? Where man wills, he carries woman before him.
Place before me my infant daughter, ripe with stink, and I blanch. Charge me to prepare a meal in the presence of my savages, and I yell, rage, and burn the chow like any tinpot tyrant. Present to me clean porcelain, and I return to you the sprinkles of my stature.
We are made for different things.
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kis
ROFL !!!
That sound like hunting and fishing-country to me …;)
Crazy ´bout both…
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Renee
See, I told ya,-it´s a guy thing…
Which just mean-WE don´t know !!
LOL!!!
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kis
I´m off !!!
Talk to you later…;)
..Behave….lol!
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Place before me my infant daughter, ripe with stink, and I blanch. Charge me to prepare a meal in the presence of my savages, and I yell, rage, and burn the chow like any tinpot tyrant. Present to me clean porcelain, and I return to you the sprinkles of my stature.
OMG, I’m laughing so hard I’m crying. It’s funny because it’s true.
But then, now that I think of it, isn’t that an argument as to why divorced mothers should get custody by default? If men find those things…so against their natures, then isn’t the assumption that mom gets custody unless she’s proved unfit the only way to avoid 50% of those kids festering in perpetually poopy diapers, eating burnt food and slipping in an ever-growing puddle of splash around the toilet?
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kis
I´m off !!!
Talk to you later…;)
..Behave….lol!
Oops, too late.
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It’s awful for women, too, when they are considering men. A man who fails in comparison to a woman loses a massive amount of respect and status in the eyes of *most* women, from the mating perspective. As work colleagues, no big deal. As mating prospect, lol — you are relegated to the ash-heap. Women do not want a mate who loses to women in his chosen field. Simple as that.
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“It’s funny because it’s true.”
kis gets jokes.
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kis
Got splash problems on the toilet ??
-Try drawing a fly on the inside of the bowl!!-It´s that simple !!
Novaseeker
I knew there was a reason !!–LOL!!!
Mate the woman you fight !!
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kis: “If men find those things…so against their natures, then isn’t the assumption that mom gets custody unless she’s proved unfit?”
Good question.
I have discovered a truly marvellous answer to this, which this comment is too narrow to contain.
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As work colleagues, no big deal. As mating prospect, lol — you are relegated to the ash-heap. Women do not want a mate who loses to women in his chosen field. Simple as that.
I can see how that would be the case–although being the slightly lopsided woman that I am, it isn’t the way I think.
Although, if my boyfriend came home and bitched about how his female boss treated him and how he had to just take it, I’d feel differently than I would if the boss was male.
If it was a male boss, I’d be more likely to feel for him, try to make him feel better, and be pissed on his behalf but figure “whaddayagonnado?”
If it was a woman boss, I think I’d feel for him, try to make him feel better and quietly think “why the fuck won’t he stand up to her?” If that makes sense.
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But then, now that I think of it, isn’t that an argument as to why divorced mothers should get custody by default
Women are better suited for the “care” of children. But men are better suited for discipline and moral formation.
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kis makes our case for us, but misses the crucial point. What happens to men who stand up to women in the modern workplace?
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kis gets jokes.
You have quite the flair for bombastic, farcical, engaging language. I could totally picture you poised on a throne making that speech–and not the kind of throne that has pee splashed all over it.
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Eumaios
OOOOUUUUCCCHHH!!!!!
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Got splash problems on the toilet ??
-Try drawing a fly on the inside of the bowl!!-It´s that simple !!
Nope. Doesn’t work. No matter how good a man’s aim is, a stream of liquid hitting a pool of standing water over an altitude differential of more than a foot is going to have enough gravity behind it to create splash. It’s inevitable.
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kis makes our case for us, but misses the crucial point. What happens to men who stand up to women in the modern workplace?
Oh I didn’t miss the point. It’s the Bart Simpsonian paradox: You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t.
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kis
point taken!
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Women are better suited for the “care” of children. But men are better suited for discipline and moral formation.
Well, mine wasn’t. But I’m willing to grant that that might be generally true.
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Eumaios
Something like getting your limbs and all major organs handed to you in a handbag ???
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“I could totally picture you poised on a throne making that speech–and not the kind of throne that has pee splashed all over it.”
O Waves of Piss, I command you! Advance no further.
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LOL
)))))
ROFL
LMAO
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AND WE HAVE A WINNER !!!
best laugh of the day !!!
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point taken!
Now if someone wanted to make a KILLING, he’d develop and patent the splash-free toilet. Every woman in the western world would want one, and no one would nag you to sit down to pee.
Any takers? Please. PLEASE.
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Fuck, Eumaios! I’m dying here!
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“No matter how good a man’s aim is, a stream of liquid hitting a pool of standing water over an altitude differential of more than a foot is going to have enough gravity behind it to create splash. It’s inevitable.”
I have actually had comets of pee splash my chest. Spatter is as ineluctable as the last few drops that go in your pants.
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Yet man is born to stand, as surely as the splatters fly upward.
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hate those last drops
No matter how much you jump and jerk….damn!!!
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“Now if someone wanted to make a KILLING, he’d develop and patent the splash-free toilet.”
Sad men have enough troubles with vacuum cleaners already. Let’s not spread that further.
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Sad men have enough troubles with vacuum cleaners already. Let’s not spread that further.
Are you kidding me? That Dyson guy probably gets laid like no tomorrow.
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lol!!!
Turn the power off !!!
TURN THE POWER OFF !!!!!!!
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I found in boxing sparring there were two types of women:
1) Respectful, humble normal girls. In the ring they’d try to learn and compete but always knew you were “carrying” them and thus never took liberties
2) Coffee-shop feminists. They’d go 100% trying to knock you out and overturn 2000 years of patriarchy in one round. They probably didn’t even realise I was pulling my punches.
I always got on well with (1). With the (2)s I would tolerate it for a while, and if they persisted I’d crack them with a really hard combo and give them a “know your role” stare. The look on their faces when ideology crumbles before reality is priceless.
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When I am involved in serious competition, I do not differentiate on the basis of gender. You want to fight?
We’re going to fucking fight.
I find that, despite the would-be white knight stepping in at times, that if you are willing to really crush anyone you face if they turn out to be an inferior opponent, people learn not to fuck with you quickly and you don’t have to tolerate bullshit.
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As a fencer I am pitted against men and women. Since fencing well requires very little physical strength a woman who has paid attention to the Master’s lessons could really eat a guy up. I have faced such women and have had to deal with defeat. I will say that if you approach it with the correct mindset, it will make you a better competitor. If you learn from your mistakes and take corrective actions, you will be able to overcome your opponent in future bouts. There is no dishonor in losing to a superior opponent. Honor comes into play when you shy away from an encounter. Whether it is through fear of losing or through disdain for opponent. A person, man or woman, would be foolish to ridicule a defeated opponent because the loser might have learned something in their defeat while the victor would only have their self-esteem falsely inflated and be set up for a harder fall when they loose in a future encounter.
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While I agree with the central thesis of your essay, I would part way when it comes to competing with women in the work place or in academics. I work in a professional field that that is fairly competitive as well as being highly technical and specialized. In this particular field the ratio to men and women is fairly close. I often have to get in very heated debated about projects and have never even considered the sex of the person I was having to debate. I have found that in this field as well as in business women are every bit as shrewd as men, and if you let your guard down they will not give you any sympathy or slack. When I have lost such debates or have found that the argument presented was legitimate in its criticism against my own, I never feel like less a man. I do not see it as being defeated by a women, but rather as being defeated by a highly trained and intelligent opponent.
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Yep. That’s my sense, too. It’s a catch 22 for guys, really.
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Yep. That’s my sense, too. It’s a catch 22 for guys, really.
Well, sort of. I mean my reaction to him having a female boss and a male one would be the same, as long as he was treated with respect. But I’ve had bosses who lived to humiliate their underlings. Frankly, this has happened less with my female bosses than with the male ones–I think because women are generally more concerned with feelings and keeping people happy. But when it does happen–when women get on that power trip and abuse their position–it seems worse. Don’t know if their behavior IS worse, or whether it’s just more unbecoming in a woman and therefore seems worse.
But if she was humiliating him, being dismissive of his work, etc. That’s when my “why won’t he stand up to her” reaction would kick in.
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In the context of a debate, an academic setting, or the workplace, when I’m competing with women I simply make sure to smile alot and inject phrases like “I hear what you’re saying, but…” and “This is a good suggestion, but here’s the reasoning behind mine…” You need to balance your logic with humor, emotion and grace when you’re competing with women because you run a real risk of the unfair perception of”beating up on a girl” With men I’m still humorous and emotive but much more direct.
The capable women I’ve worked with usually agree with my solutions anyway. The incapable ones know they don’t stand a chance.
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This article is amusing because the vast majority of the PUA/MRA community has no concept of honor, ethics or morals.
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Oh,dear.
Ask anybody who has worked as a cleaner which toilets are the more disgusting to clean.
The answer will be unanimously NOT the mens.
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“the vast majority of the PUA/MRA community has no concept of honor, ethics or morals.”
Citation needed.
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Oh,dear.
Ask anybody who has worked as a cleaner which toilets are the more disgusting to clean.
The answer will be unanimously NOT the mens.
You know why? Because little kids, male and female, under the age of 4 or 5 are more likely to use the ladies’ room than the mens’. And urinals are very tidy contrivances that minimize splatter. If men’s rooms had toilets to pee in, they’d be a hideous mess.
And I’ve heard that rumor before, but as someone who has to deal with bathrooms every night at work, I have to say if I’m going to find diarrhea splattered all over the toilet seat, pubic hairs sticking to the porcelain or a loogie stuck to the sink, it’s going to be in the men’s room 90% of the time.
I have encountered the odd drop or smear of blood on the ladies’ toilet seat, and they do tend to make a mess around the sink–usually soap and puddles of water, and stray hairs (from their heads). But if the toilet looks like it’s been peed all over, it was a day when lots of little boys were there with their moms. Either that or some germaphobe woman wouldn’t let her ass touch the seat and splashed all over it–which pisses me right the fuck off, but wouldn’t be something she’d do at home.
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Kimskinovgorod,
LOL!
———————–
Eumaios,
But if they do, and win, why is that so bad?
Overall, I see what you’re saying. But to me it seems like the reason losing to women is so awful to men is because of these old archaic ideas of women being generally weak, being seen as one of less worth, inferior, yada yada yada….
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There is no need to reach for “old, archaic ideas” about how women behave.
The evidence that validates the old stereotypes is EVERYWHERE.
If you ever want to understand the differences between men and women, watch daytime television and then watch ESPN. Daytime television is created by women for women–there’s no master oppressor pulling the strings. See Oprah, Ellen, The View, Tyra. Those shows are watched by HUGE numbers of women. Women who don’t respond to that kind of feel good emotional sharing are a small minority of women.
Men don’t want to be compared with women because of the way women STILL behave, not because of how they USED TO behave.
Jack,
I thought this a wonderful post. I can imagine many pennies dropping in readers minds. ( so to speak) I can only hope that women will listen too.
I competed with men much of my life in sport but only on a social level. Especially in mixed netball which I ran professionally. But I loved it so much and I believe the guys loved it too because they were so good at jumping to catch the ball over females heads and throwing long distance .. but being more of a woman’s sport they had to throw short distance and could only step one foot unlike basketball where you have 1 and a half steps. It was even! IMO
It was so much fun and they stayed all season. We all laughed so hard at the mistakes and lack of certain qualities and the males had no problem coming back week after week to show they were better than the week before to us females who had played since 6 years of age. It was very competitive believe not or not because of the nature of the players and many teams came back for a second and third season.
I think it is OK to be competitive if women and men together are a team. Often when being competitive you look to strengths and weaknesses as a way of complimenting. Each has something to add as a team.
And one on one men do have an advantage. I would hate it ever so much to play sport one on one against a male. Unless of course it was chess or another board game. Then I think it is just minds or luck of the dice. Even cards I don’t mind competing with because that is really the luck of the cards and a bit of shrewdness.
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Ooops, I didn’t explain this well. When I said ….
When I say most of my life, what I meant was that I have brothers and male cousins, and that we weren’t raised to think differently of each other as children. Maybe I should also mention that though we are a successful family, we do come from a Gypsy background and we were raised Catholic. Catholics are very much into all being equal under God. We are sorta disliked by the other 130 odd Christian religions who say men are this and that and women are this and that.
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@kis…
Sorry. Worked in office settings and for large cleaning contractors as well as running a private sideline in stain removal. No kids in the environments I’ve worked in.
What I said stands and every single cleaner I know – perhaps several hundred – will say exactly the same thing.
The worst of it is the bloody make up. I’d rather work with fæces.
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Jack Donavan,
Well considering I don’t watch any of those shows, I must be in the small minority. Anyway, who said anything about a “master oppressor”? Anyway, men don’t behave all that perfect themselves, yet you don’t see women getting upset at being compared to men (unless it was about their appearance or perhaps mannerisms). Anyway, my focus wasn’t as much on comparisons as it was about being defeated in a competition with with a woman. It wasn’t even focused solely on behavior either, just a general idea or belief about women.
I just think that some of these ideas are still present today, just subconsciously. Or maybe ingrained is a better word. I mean, men not wanting to be beaten by, or as you mentioned, compared to a woman isn’t anything new.
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Women have no honor. Nor are they required to acknowledge honor and fairness in any way. They are excused for nearly any type of wrongdoing in today’s society from lying to battery to murder. Yet we men must still adhere to honor. We are at a severe disadvantage.
I would rather retain honor though as it is one of the things that separates us from animals. Too bad there isn’t a way to get women on board. They might actually be able to benefit from something like, being true to their word, or paying a debt.
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Or maybe ingrained is a better word.
Or perhaps “natural.”
Something doesn’t have to be genetic to be natural to our species. Certain patterns recur over and over again throughout history, because we are still, for the most part, the same animals we’ve been for tens of thousands of years.
Wheels are not naturally occurring, but because the natural world is what it is, a wheel remains a good solution to a common problem.
The idea that we can program away every aspect of human nature is hubris, and simply not true. All ideas are not simply “the fashion of the day.”
I would rather retain honor though as it is one of the things that separates us from animals. Too bad there isn’t a way to get women on board. They might actually be able to benefit from something like, being true to their word, or paying a debt.
Hmmm. Maybe I’ll write a piece on that.
The thing about the comments is that they usually lead to ideas for articles. I just found myself about 500 words into my explanation and then I was like…WAIT, that’s an article.
Competing with women? What real men compete with women over anything? Women can have more babies and more orgasms…they win these two ‘competitions’ hands down. Everything else? Men are so far superior that to compete with them is degrading to men. I’ve never, ever had a woman compete with me at work. And, of course, they didn’t come onto the football field or cricket pitch either….after all, a woman might get hurt competing on level terms in those games.
The last time a woman (girl) competed with me was in high school for overall leaving mark. 28 years ago. But since she did 3 unit english and I didn’t bother with english the marks were not very comparable. I beat her out of the gate and beat her in every subject we both did. She asked for a remark of her english exam and beat me on the recount by getting a high 3 unit english mark. But since that was two months later and she was my first gf and I was still in love with her I had no problems in her getting the higher mark on a recount.
It wasn’t ‘competitive’ because in english all they ask you to do is regurgitate the teachers opinion…having one of your own is a BIG negative. That’s why I failed english. I had my own opinions…LOL!! We can’t be having that in our totalitarian communist state..LOL!
Renee: “Why is losing to a woman so awful to men? This may be obvious to you guys here so sorry if I don’t get it?”
When it happens, women are terrible winners. No grace at all. They rub it in for decades in a most horrendous fashion. They have no honour. Remember Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs? She was 29 at the peak of her performance and he was 55, retired. Yet, women talk about that match like it was a match of equals. Billy Jean King was named one of the top 100 women of the century I heard (I did not check.) There is barely a feminist who will not fall all over herself using that tennis match as PROOF women are as good as men. Really? The worlds best female tennis player can beat an old age pensioner? And you obnoxious bratty little children want to celebrate this as proof you are equal? I could probably beat Bobby Riggs! Roger Federer played Pete Sampras recently and Pete ran him around the court a bit before Federer won. NOBODY expected Peter to win and Roger, because he as a little something women don’t called class, obviously didn’t run around claiming he was a better tennis player than Pete. They are two great players of different eras. The debate over who was better will still be going on in 50 years I imagine. But women? They can call themselves ‘better’ or ‘equal’ in a vastly biased contest and harp on about it for decades. No class what so ever!
The other reason is this. The only way women ‘beat’ men is when the man opens up his heart and his soul and places his trust in the woman he loves and allows himself to be vulnerable. Then she screws him over in divorce and basically rips his heart out and stomps it into the dust while bragging about how “ha I screwed you over you loser, sucker, son of a bitch with a small penis.”.
And it escapes you why we don’t like that?
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“They might actually be able to benefit from something like, being true to their word, or paying a debt”
Ha, ha, ha…that’s so funny…..Now, Santa, for christmas what I want is a shiny new bike!!!
Women don’t like being called liars but in a survey of 5,000 women average age of 38 in the UK 96% of them said they had lied. I’m not kidding. And it gets worse, just read this one.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/139/139613_women_lie_cheat_and_steal.html
Women say to me ‘everyone lies’ and ‘all men are liars’. Really? That’s news to me. I don’t lie, my dad and eldest brother never lied. Most of my mates never lied to me. In fact, when I catch a man lying to me it comes as a HUGE surprise that he’s silly enough to try it. Women? It’s standard. They can barely go a day without a good fib. Ladies. You want ‘credibility’, stop lying. The fundamental issue in my divorce was my exs dishonesty. She could not make it to the bar called ‘honest’.
I loaned one of my longest term women friends EUR6K. She needed the money. But it took FOREVER to get it back. She did keep her horses while not paying me back by the way, and bought a new car….
Anyway. One evening my then wife and I were talking over this debt and how I might tactfully ask for the money back and my ex says “You cannot expect xxxx to pay that money back, she’s a woman. Everyone knows any loan given to a woman is really a gift. They never pay it back.” Really? No. I didn’t know that. I thought women took out loans and paid them back like everyone else.
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The girl in the picture is a cutie. Not bad at all for 1905.
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Globalman,
This is such a sad part of our reality. When men love, they love hard. IMO They give everything. And women really do hold his heart in her hand.
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When it happens, women are terrible winners. No grace at all. They rub it in for decades in a most horrendous fashion.
That bugs me. And it bugs me to hear people say women are incapable of honor or fairness, because they are. They just aren’t called on their dishonor and unfairness enough, so they get away with their bad behavior.
I think the old beliefs that men should be held to honor while for a woman, honor is to be found only in chastity is…um stupid? Never been a debt I haven’t paid in full–and gone without shit I want until it’s paid up. I did have to wait 6 weeks for a MAN to pay me a hundred bucks he owed me–despite the fact that he not only earns over 3 times what I do, but paid the hundred dollar buy-in to the weekly poker game every Saturday during that time. People said I should nag him for the money. I said I wasn’t going to get on my knees and beg him to give me what’s mine–if he wants to be a slimeball let him.
Never been a time when I cream a guy at pool or cribbage that I do a victory dance and rub it in his face. You shake hands and tell him “good game”, isn’t that what you’re fucking supposed to do? I mean, I like to win. I don’t mind losing, but I know it bothers other people, so I don’t go out of my way to make them feel worse.
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“See Oprah, Ellen, The View, Tyra. Those shows are watched by HUGE numbers of women”
I just have to show you guys how stupid women on the view are….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzjtPKEYP9M
Check out the fat stupid black women who does not even know if the world is flat or round. How is the this woman going to raise a man….she going to go to the library to find this out!! LOL!!
She talks about what is important is earning money to feed her son. Apparently this woman can not see any connection between having education levels that, well, would be considered a 6 year old fail, and income. LOL!! I just died laughing at this..Oh…by the way..notice how the audience actually CLAPS as this women reveals her complete ignorance…YAY WE ARE DUMB YAY…enjoy!
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To globalman,
Never underestimate a man or a woman under any circumstances, I say.
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Jack Donavan,
But what’s so natural about a guy’s masculinity being on the line just because he lost to a woman? If it is a competition of strength then I can see why, but if the context is what Men’s Rhetorical Advocate mentioned (debate, an academic setting, the workplace) or I don’t know, just playing cards or videogames, then why do men feel that their masculinity is in jeopardy if they lose to a woman. And why on earth would that be “natural”?
I may have to go with Kimskinovgorod on this one and just accept that it’s a guy’s thing
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Because women prefer men who beat other men at such things, never mind women. A woman who is attracted to a man might be titillated by defeating him, to even the power differential and so on, but if her object of male affection routinely loses to women in something he expresses an interest in, most women will find him of little interest.
It devalues men in women’s eyes, full stop.
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kis October 23, 2009 at 12:16 pm,
*Grabs your face and kisses you on your cheek*….ummmm….sorry:P
THANK YOU! Especially about that chastity part. Actually, your whole post was great usual.
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Renee “Especially about that chastity part.”
Unsurprising.
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Novaseeker says;
And this is what it all boils down to. Sex.
A male friend of mine says, “We are all just monkeys wearing other animal skins so we don’t fuck all day long”.
And because we wear animal skins or material made from plants or animals work, we tend to have to look for other things in a mate. I think one of the neatest things that has come about for men with brains and not strength is money and power through money. Men have been very creative over thousands of years to find ways to attract a worthwhile mate for their offspring. For some it is what they can do with their hands as in inventions, for some it is strength, for some it is cash, for some it is poetry or nice words, for some it is being clever (top of the class) and for some it is achieving badges like in the army. Years ago it was feathers and painted bodies and killing wild animals for food.
Women’s power gets in the way of the man’s world. But it is a reality men are going to have to face. And men are just going to have to be clever to figure out how to solve this. At the moment gender studies looks at men’s status as being the downfall of men’s equality. I have read many times the rightwing blogs in New Zealand challenge the leftwing blogs by asking, “And how are you going to make sure I get laid as much as the next guy if I don’t have compete with other men. Your idea of everyone being equal won’t work for men”.
I have even read articles from men saying, “Sure, we would love to let all go and enjoy life as feminists say, but women won’t let us”.
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Eumaios,
Lol
Why is it unsurprising. Perhaps this is a little TMI, but I’m actually a virgin myself, and I’m 25. Besides, even God Himself didn’t say that chastity should be associated to only women.
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Novaseeker,
Seriously….? In something like cards and videogames???
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Seriously….? In something like cards and videogames???
I think it does in some women’s eyes. But I think the women who care about that are the top 20% that all the men drool over. Me, all I care about is if someone can win or lose gracefully, no matter who they’re winning or losing to. Nothing hotter than a man who can lose a tough-played game, smile and say, “thanks for the game”, whether it’s a woman or a man who beat him. Nothing more unattractive than a man who blows a snit because someone–male or female–beat him fair and square.
I’ve seen guys get pissed off and toss their pool cue on the table, muttering curse words under their breath, and they tend to do it just as often when a man beats them as when a woman does. It’s juvenile. Those are the same guys who swagger around with their chests puffed out at the beginning of the night which is just as unattractive to me.
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Renee: “Why is it unsurprising? Perhaps this is a little TMI, but I’m actually a virgin myself.”
Your original comment was ambiguous, and I took the wrong -guous.
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Eumaios: “Citation needed.”
Look at the latest article about how to get away with cheating. An honorable and ethical person would not cheat in the first place.
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My biggest complaint with placing the only path to honor between a woman’s thighs is that it implies all a woman has to do to be honorable is not have extramarital sex. Um, so if she’s a lying, shoplifting, gossip-mongering woman who cheats at cards, but she’s a virgin, she’s still honorable? Um, no.
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“Look at the latest article about how to get away with cheating. An honorable and ethical person would not cheat in the first place.”
Citation fail. You need to show me a reference demonstrating that a “majority of the PUA/MRA community has no concept of honor, ethics or morals.” Had you left out the MRA bit, your task might be easier. Had you said, “do not demonstrate honor, ethics, or morals,” your task might be easier.
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“the only path to honor between a woman’s thighs”
The erosion of the meaning of “virtue” from manliness (virtu or arete) to female chastity is important to understanding the self-destruction of the West.
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Eumaios,
Well why is chastity not an important virtue for men? The idea of a woman’s honor and worth mainly being in her virginity is pretty ridiculous.
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I’m guessing that any man so consumed with thoughts of hyper-masculinity is probably short. I’m a hair over 6′ 6″, and stuff like this never enters my mind. I don’t feel the slightest pressure to conform to antiquated gender roles or to obsess over imagined affronts to my masculinity or to play grab-ass with another grown man with samurai swords. It’s good to be the big dog.
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There is less honour in running away when faced with the risk of losing.
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