Cless Alvein’s blog, Alvanista, is here.
I approach the podium. My hands tremble slightly. Even though the atmosphere is one of support, I’m not used to speaking in front of crowds.
“My name is Cless Alvein,” I begin. (Actually, that’s my pseudonym, but let’s go with it this way for now.)
“Hi Cless!” the crowd calls back in unison. The first step to self-understanding and growth is the ability to articulate one’s predicament.
“My name is Cless Alvein, and I’m looking for love. I’m looking for a beautiful, intelligent, sweet woman to caress and cherish. I guess you could say that I’m a love-a-holic.”
The crowd applauds. Or maybe not, since what I’ve articulated is not an unusual sentiment. To be “love-a-holic” is an essential aspect of the human condition, not a pathology. I am seeking love and intimacy intensely at this stage of life (age 26). Don’t get me wrong: I’m attractive enough that I have no problem meeting women, and I’m sufficiently functional on my own. I have a good job, great friends, and a lot of hobbies. I don’t need a woman, and if it were God’s will for me to be single and dedicate myself solely to other aspects of life, I’d stoically accept that. However, I really want one. I’d like to be married before my 32nd birthday. Of course, I’d rather have no relationship at all than anything but a passionate, loving one– this explains my extreme selectivity and long single spells– but it’s this faith in love that keeps me searching.
We’re afraid of love, as humans, and we shouldn’t be. Love, and not only of the romantic kind but of all varieties, is what we live and die for. It’s why God created us. Four billion years of evolution through progressively sophisticated mechanisms have brought us to this human form, and while we lack the comprehension and brilliance of our Creator, we’re fully capable of love– and that’s a great start. We invent flying machines because we love the idea of flight, write novels and design computers because we love language and symbols, and we perpetuate the species by loving each other and forming families.
With love as a motivator, one can see why I’m averse to combat dating and the casual-sex market: there’s no love in it. There isn’t even luke-warm “like” in it. It’s more like a real-life flame war than a process of growth and discovery, combining the nonchalant mean-spiritedness of 4chan and the confining status obsessions of Autoadmit. When two people are trying to assert and to assess each other’s status, there’s no chance for genuine friendship, compassion, and love to flourish. Pouring battery acid in a garden, proving one’s “status” to the earth, doesn’t bring flowers to blossom. It kills them.
Escaping combat dating is hard, and most American men have become fed up with it and the “mainstream” dating scene run by middle-class, mostly white, American women. Many of us will look elsewhere to find love, dating internationally and interracially. Our most fervent opponents in this are, perhaps not surprisingly, the entitled and selfish Sex and the City girls we’re moving away from. Why? Because despite living in a “post-feminist” world, they still need us more than we need them. Why? Because the marital hypergamy of the typical, entitled American yuppie woman, even still, tends to follow specific racial and class patterns, which romantic men and women readily ignore. Carrie Bradshaw’s “Mr. Big” had to be a blue-blooded white man. By contrast, a person who is seeking love above all, like myself, can marry a woman of any nationality and racial background.
This terrifies the casual-sexing divorce monkeys and suburban-bred office cows that mainstream American women have become, and it’s the reason they pipe out such outlandish stereotypes about white men who are open to interracial dating and marriage. They claim, for example, that we “can’t get white women”. Wrong. We can, and some of us will marry the few decent white girls who are still single. We just don’t find racial similarity important in choosing a mating partner– at all. These women do, and losing “their men” frightens them.
Of white men who date Asian women, the scared white girls argue that we seek submissive housewives, or that Asian women just have low standards. Also wrong. Second- and third-generation Asian immigrants are as free, under the law, as any other American women, and they strongly prefer egalitarian relationships. Moreover, Asian womens’ standards aren’t “lower”, but just different. They care more about culture, intelligence, and refinement than they do about the American concept of social status, and that’s a good thing. I mean, isn’t it a little bit pathetic when a 30-year-old woman is still chasing the types of men who were popular in high school?
Of white men who date black women, they make an even more offensive assertion: that we’re attracted to them because they’re supposedly “easy”. Doubleplusunright– or in old speak, wrong again. In fact, the truth is quite the opposite, because the specific type of black women that we seek (and, yes, for serious relationships and marriage) is far from promiscuous.
One of the best-kept secrets in the modern dating scene is the beauty– physical, intellectual, romantic and spiritual– of the educated, middle-class black woman. Among them are some of the most cultured, strong and loyal women I’ve ever met. They’re fully American– in fact, I’d argue that, without the contributions of black Americans, the U.S. would be a cultural backwater– but with strong values and spirituality, a combination that makes them one of the most desirable ethnitcities for an American man to date. Also, they’re not at all easy. Immensely strong and spiritual women, they tend to have sex only in the context of a loving relationship predicated on mutual respect and loyalty, preserving the ability to pair bond while their mainstream, Sex and the City-raised counterparts have lost it.
At the risk of sounding like a racial fetishist, which I’m not, let me give the disclaimer that I’m speaking strictly in aggregate terms. I know there are great white women out there, but a white man unwilling to date outside of his ethnicity is putting himself at a severe disadvantage– there aren’t enough good white women “to go around”, so to speak. Obviously, it also goes without saying that not every non-white or foreign woman is an angel. There are great and awful women in all ethnicities, of course. Yet as a white American man, it seems very clear that the odds are substantially better for those of us who are enthusiastic about looking elsewhere.
It’s also important, in my mind, to clear the air about white American men who “out-marry”. The vast majority of us are not racial fetishists at all, and our motivations have nothing to do with the perverse and offensive stereotypes propagated by scared white women. We date and marry these women– Asian, black, European, Latina– because we love them. Why wouldn’t we?
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{ 96 comments… read them below or add one }
An interesting article, Cless. One thing you don’t address, but would be interesting to see you address, is the attitude that many black women have about black men dating white women (more common statistically than the reverse).
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Fredoneverything gets into this stuff. But I’d say the issue isn’t so much race as it is culture. There are still perfectly decent white girls in some of the more conservative Eastern European countries, and there are some pretty terrible Asian girls in places like Shanghai and Tokyo. I think it’s a matter of privilege, and in America the big city white girl is probably the most privileged creature of all, and therefore her sense of entitlement will be enormous.
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“We’re afraid of love, as humans, and we shouldn’t be.”
I don’t think it’s love that we’re afraid of. It’s that bloody great rat-trap that uses love as bait that is the source of so much fear.
“I am seeking love and intimacy intensely at this stage of life (age 26).”
Very normal. But it’s not an absolute and enduring feature of being a human male. It passes – and far from that being a sad thing thing, it’s a beautiful thing. Our desire to mate may be what keeps the human race going, but that’s its only purpose. The desire falls away once this purpose is served – normally when we start moving through our 30s.
What you describe as love is Nature’s trick to make you do what you would never do if you were considering your own interests only. It is a kind of irrational delirium. The most effective cure for it is to live with a woman – then you’re confronted with the reality that the dream conveniently overlooks. It doesn’t take more than a few months. You realize that all you’ve done is share a roof with another human, with all its angers, greeds, tempers, mad dreams and the occasional light moments – a lot like ourselves.
I don’t know a single presentable man who regrets remaining a bachelor, once he hits his 40s. As for married men – the opposite is true. If you have the opportunity, look closely at the lives of those who have love and don’t, and the kind of people this love is coming from. It too many cases, it’s so very ugly. It was to married men that Thoreau was referring when he said that ‘they live lives of quiet desperation’.
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Well, in my experience they will treat you well even if you live with them — until they get the awful ring of power.
So… go ahead and shack up, but don’t you dare give her that ring until she’s signed a prenup and a pledge to share parenting in case of divorce. Also, if she is a daddy’s girl, watch out!
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Nth generation Asian American women are basically American white chicks. I wouldn’t seriously date one any more than an attitudinal sex and the city urban honkey.
Respectable African American women though: you’re totally right. They’re outstanding and underrated. Finding a respectable one is difficult though, and they’re pretty fiery, so you have to be able to deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poBGgBKpqQw
Foreigners: so much better though.
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As has been said before, foreign women are great. Just don’t bring them back here to the US. My Guatemalan wife was a loving woman for about fifteen years. Then she turned into a fembot seemingly overnight.
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Cless,
“but it’s this faith in love that keeps me searching.”
I suggest you save your time and stop then. Or, if you really want love buy a dog. Mr. Truth (my mate who helped me out) says “Want love, buy a dog.” It is sad but true, that women are actually not capable of love as us men understand it. They don’t love men, they love what men provide. ‘Babies and money’. I was very, very disappointed to find this out I can tell you. It had to be shoved so far down my throat I almost puked. I was like, no, no, no, no that CAN NOT BE TRUE!!!! My mum did a good job on me!!
Most men don’t know that ‘love’ is just one more mind control technique imposed on men to get them to sacrifice their life for ‘women and children’. It’s a story. It’s made up. The women actually know it but they will die before they admit it. They are totally reliant on ‘love’ to get a man trapped nowadays. The notion of marrying for ‘love’ is actually only very recent. Women used to marry out of economic necessity because they could do so few jobs outside the home. The reason there are so many ‘love songs’ and ‘love stories’ is not because love exists, it’s to program men into thinking love is real. Diabolical…LOL!
I have actually had some eastern chicks ‘confess’ that my eventual findings that they don’t really ‘love’ men like we talk about it were correct. It was like drawing teeth. If you are really interested I can post why men had to be programmed to ‘love’ women while it was very important to make sure womens ‘affection’ was easily transferable. But it’s a bit of a story…and it’s late here in London. Let me know if you are interested.
One other thing.
I know the intimacy which you crave. Most of us beta guys do. What I just found out (at 44) was that I can get that feeling of ‘love and intimacy’ from a woman I don’t care about that much. I just saved you 18 years dude!!
About a year ago I was dating this chick who looked like a cousin I had a crush on when I was 12. She wasn’t that hot by my standards so she was trying extra, extra hard. She was like “please GM, tell me what else I can do for you, I just want to make you happy”. So, as an experiment, I asked her to ‘make love’ with me the way my ex had for just 6 months in my marriage. There was some specific things I wanted.
WWWWOOOOWWWWWW!!!! When this chick did what occured to me as ‘make love’ it was ALL THERE BABY!! Mr Truth was fearful I would fall in love and want to marry her but she was too far down scale to be interesting. She got replaced. The fate of women now. A little later I asked my fav#1 to do the same. This woman is a 10 in looks and 8 in performance now I have trained her. She’s ‘smokin’. So we ‘make love’ and OMFG!!! I am blown away. I meet up with Mr. Truth the next day and he’s like “Oh, no, this is big trouble. I can see a wedding coming on. Don’t do it!!”
So fav#1 and I have been doing this whole ‘make love’ thing for a year now. She is trying so hard to get ‘babies and money’. The feelings that are generated are more intense than anything I ever got from my ex. EVER! My advice to young men like you? Learn how to ‘make love’ with women you don’t love and don’t fall for the ‘love’ trap like I did. You will not be missing out on anything. I can guarantee you. Right now? I have three favs who will do this for me. Can you imagine what it is like to have three women on speed dial who can give you lovemaking like that? Magic!
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Welmer October 15, 2009 at 2:31 pm
“Well, in my experience they will treat you well even if you live with them until they get the awful ring of power.”
It’s not just the ring….another turning point is when they get the number of kids they want. Once they have kids they know no court will take the kids away. My ex went ape shit right after the second kid because she knew I would stay through thick and thin for my kids. She was right. 14 years of it. In the end she was really surprised with me in putting my foot down. She even called me a week or so later and asked if I would take her back. I kid you not.
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@Nova: None of the black women I’ve dated have had a problem with that.
Then again, being black women who date white men, you’d expect this.
None of my friends have a problem with IR dating, and many of them are in interracial relationships. However, I generally avoid the sorts of people (or any race) who would have a problem with it.
A white female acquaintance of mine was supposedly threatened, physically, by a group of black women for dating “their men”. This was at college, so I find it hard to believe, because it was a pretty elite school, and she was known for being melodramatic. That’s the only real-life scenario I’m familiar with of someone being against black men and white women dating, aside from the flaming racists.
@Lupo: many 2nd-generation Asian-Americans are good, because they’re raised with traditional values. Also, finding respectable women, in general, is hard– no need to qualify that with “black”. It’s true in most ethnicities, and definitely true of whites.
@piercedhead, GM: I disagree. I think love is real, but it’s rare. Most married couples– I’d say 70 to 80 percent– fall out of love, especially in the US where a lot of women have no idea how to be good wives, and many husbands have no clue what is expected of them as husbands.
I’ve heard that 10-20% of couples are, long term, as much in love as they are in the “honeymoon” phase. This is corroborated by MRI studies. That doesn’t mean that it’s always easy, but the love never dies. I think that I can “beat the odds”, because I’m very selective in my choice of women and I have no interest in settling– I’d rather be a bachelor than marry someone I’m not sure about.
Generally, I think it’s best to delay sex and emotional investment, getting to know the person semi-objectively before infatuation kicks in and obvious flaws are overlooked. People who could get along as friends (if they were dating other people, say) generally stay in love; people who would never be friends generally fall out of it. This is, at least, my thought and observation on the matter.
Welmer gets it right, its culture rather than race. Collectively, American-raised urban white women tend to buy into a degraded worthless culture. No sensible man wants a woman who is on the bottom rung as far as culture.
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@Michael: Of course it’s culture at hand, and I concur with Welmer on that.
Values are a big part of the white/black-and-foreign quality gap. Just as 90% of suburbia is an architectural non-place, postmodern suburban white culture is a non-culture and doesn’t instill strong values. Materialist postmodernism doesn’t even believe its own bullshit, except in the form known as “academia”.
On culture, I mentioned the high-quality of middle-class black women without getting into the American, Caribbean, African, and Afro-European distinction– and these ethnic groups are more different from each other than American whites and blacks, but in my experience, all of these groups have a number of great women.
I think a lot of it is driven by the sexual market, as Welmer insinuated. The most desired white women tend to get spoiled and develop insufferable personalities, or they generally end up in serious, marriage-bound, relationships by 25.
On SMV (sexual market value) and race, there was an OkCupid study on race and reply-rates that showed black women at a disadvantage, but black women still got slightly higher rates of reply than white men, who did the best of all races. It really nailed home the point on why attractive men and black women generally have great personalities while attractive white women rarely do; there’s a narrow “sweet spot” in terms of SMV that produces great personalities. For men and black women, who are of comparable SMV, this sweet spot is 6-8 in terms of attractiveness. For white women, it seems to be 4-6, due to the +2 white-woman bonus. (This also explains why average-looking white women tend to have good personalities.)
Cless is such an intelligent young man, and yet, he doesn’t know the deleterious effects of miscegenation. At the same time, he denounces the culture that brainwashed him into believing there’s nothing wrong with miscegenation!
You speak of “culture” and “values”. What culture, heritage, and values will your future mixed-race children take pride in? Both? None? The poor confused kids. At least you didn’t speak of integrity.
Fascinating, truly fascinating, and disgusting.
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scramby:
Would you care to describe some of these “deleterious effects of miscegenation?” As the happy result of an interracial marriage, I’d like to know if I’m missing something important.
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I don’t listen to mainstream American culture, which contradicts itself all the time. I listen to my heart and my mind.
Do you have American ancestry before 1860? You’re probably part black. Do you have European ancestry south of Paris? You probably have some Moorish blood in you. East of Berlin? You likely have some Asian admixture.
Values? Those of their parents. Among educated professionals, I have more values in common with black than with white women. Heritage and pride? Multiple/both. I have a mix of European ancestry. I take pride in both my blue-blooded English and my literary Irish lines. In the early 19th century, this would have seemed utterly ridiculous because the English and Irish hated each other, but it’s normal now.
Cless,
Being a white girl from Australia (and a pretty white town in Australia too) I had very little contact with any real racism growing up. Apart from my grandparents occasional comments (“don’t trust the Japanese!” ) I was taught to take people as I found them. So when I went traveling around the world I thought nothing of dating a black man. The man I dated was Catholic, like me, educated, respectful, funny if a little dorky and very good looking. I was NOT prepared for the reaction we got when in public together. The reaction from black women. The dirty looks and whispers that came our way from random black women were appalling! (on the other hand black men thought I was pretty awesome it seemed.) The crazy thing is, my bf (now ex) told me that he had tried to date black women plenty of times but they pretty much treated him like a player – which is funny cause he was such a gentleman he would never even cuss. As I have said, this was something I was not prepared for and therefore not expecting or projecting onto people. It is just as I saw it. Oh, and my ex had not dated many white girls before either. For some reason indian girls seemed to love him (and he them). He is one of the most quality guys out there (of any race) and yet black women rejected him and then got shitty when he dated a white girl. What’s up with that?
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Ehh, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Part Indian, probably, but there was a pretty stark divide between blacks and whites for the 200 or so years before the Civil War. In fact, most “white” folks I’ve known with black ancestry (mostly originally from Louisiana) know about it, and these days are fairly open about their black ancestry.
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@aussie,
I’m sorry to hear about that. I hope the interracial element was not one of the reasons for the breakup. If it was, I encourage you guys to give it another try, because no one who matters will hold it against you.
I think IR dating benefits the most desirable, quality people immensely. Dating quality isn’t a bell curve but a pyramid, which means that high-quality people are in a niche and could just get unlucky. The ability to date outside of one’s race and nationality is a boon to such people, who would otherwise face grinding dry spells.
As for those who are undesirable, I don’t think IR dating hurts them, but it definitely gives them a scapegoat. Most of the people complaining about interracial dating somehow believe they’d magically get a desirable same-race partner if it weren’t for those outsiders taking “their [wo]men”, which is fallacious for two reasons: (1) it presumes they don’t have the option of dating IR, and (2) the undesirable people would almost certainly be as badly shafted if IR dating never happened.
Nope. None of the above. Parents from Eire and England and migrated in the 50s. We are WHITE. WHITE. OKAY?
You are just a jackass about these things, trying to shame and pin people into your own liberal PC nonsense of a reality. Pfft. And double Pfft.
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‘Would you care to describe some of these “deleterious effects of miscegenation?†As the happy result of an interracial marriage, I’d like to know if I’m missing something important.’
Human biology and eugenics are deep subjects. Further, there is no reason to equate personal happiness with the absence of deleterious effects. Vodka has deleterious effects on me, yet I am deliriously happy when I overindulge in said effects.
Some inter-racial offspring display “hybrid vigor,” which basically means that they are more fit than either parent. However, some inter-racial offspring exhibit the opposite tendency.
In a species as complicated as humans, culture plays a huge role. The following presumes that the races in question exhibit measurable differences in intelligence.
The argument against racial mixing between high-intelligence and low-intelligence specimens is as follows:
1. Human intelligence is largely hereditary.
2. Civilization depends totally upon innate intelligence. Without innate intelligence, civilization would never have been created. When intelligence declines, so does civilization.
3. The higher the level of civilization, the better off the population. Civilization is not an either-or proposition. Rather, it’s a matter of degree, and each degree, up or down, affects the well-being of every citizen.
4. At the present time, we are evolving to become less intelligent with each new generation. Why is this happening? Simple: the least-intelligent people are having the most children.
5. Unless we halt or reverse this trend, our civilization will invariably decline. Any decline in civilization produces a commensurate increase in the collective “misery quotient.”
The argument is quoted without permission from eugenics.net.
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Incidentally, Fred Reed’s latest has the following thoughts on love and race:
‘If you hold the hands of a girl of three in a pan of boiling water, you get what are called “immersion cuffs.†She screams a lot because she doesn’t understand why Mommy is hurting her. Usually the mother does it, next the dirtbag new boyfriend, almost never the father.
…
I went with a DC cop to interview a rape victim of fifteen in some hospital. She was screaming, sobbing, out of her mind despite sedation—the usual. The guy had roughed her up pretty good. The protocol is never to mention the perp’s race but, if the girl is white, there’s no need. If you think rape is a sexual crime, you have a lot to learn. You don’t risk three years in jail and cripple a woman for something you can buy on any street corner for ten bucks.’
http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm
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(Comment bug seems fixed.)
@Marius
Can you cite any evidence that interracial children have worse genetic health than those with same-race parents? Most of the bad genes out there are recessive because any dominant bad genes have been selected out of the pool rapidly. Recessive genes tend to pair up only when the parents are genetically too similar.
The rest I didn’t read, because I have no intention of ever marrying or having a child with a low-intelligence woman of any race. I don’t think the white and black intelligence averages are different in any innate or genetic sense, but even if they were, it’d be completely irrelevant. The individual person’s intelligence is what matters.
Really, I’d guess that if you compare two couples with IQ 130 across the board, one white/white pair and one white/black pair, that the interracial couple is a slightly better bet to have healthy, intelligent children.
Further, there is no reason to equate personal happiness with the absence of deleterious effects.
Well. that makes sense, at least. But…
The following presumes that the races in question exhibit measurable differences in intelligence.
Yes, it certainly does presume that. So far, I haven’t seen any information indicating why I should accept such a presumption. Can you provide some, without zooming off on another weird tangent about child abuse and rape?
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“However, some inter-racial offspring exhibit the opposite tendency.”
This is called out-breeding depression. A good example is when the child of someone from Scandinavia and someone from West Africa have a child. There’s a specific gene with high frequencies in Scandinavians, non-existent in West Africans, that is probably related somehow to sodium regulation in human blood. When children of such pairings inherit this particular gene they have catastrophic rates of heart disease. The theory is that Africans evolved over the past 50,000 years in climes that elicited greater sweat responses, responses that would deplete sodium levels in cooler regions.
Not sure of any identifiable genetics related to outbreeding depression and cognitive functioning.
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Cless, hurry up and finish swallowing the red pill. The suspense is killing me. I want to hear the metaphysical snap in the universe when that finally happens.
Please. For the sake of mankind (and I meant that specifically) finish taking your medicine.
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Funny thing about cross-breeding of animals. Adhering to strict breeding-lines results in better aesthetics (at least, from a human point of view), but nearly always leads to one or more physical frailties associated with the breed.
But in the raising of sheep-dogs, where intelligence is one of the most desirable traits, the best dogs are bitsers (bits of this and bits of that). The classic sheep-dog breeds that win dog-shows are as dumb as two boards compared to the cross-bred mongrels that win the working dog competitions where the dog is judged solely on his ability to do his job, rather than appearance.
Not sure how or if this translates to humans, but it agrees with my own understanding of evolution and why there are males.
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@Piercedhead..
Don’t give love an unfair shakedown just because people choose the wrong person to partner up with. If living with someone becomes boring or intolerable, or if days and nights are spent arguing and passing each other in the halls with indifference-then the wrong choice was made. Also, people are designed differently, their pie charts require varying degrees of varying needs in order to feel satisfied. The degrees of the need of it are subjective and it is those nuances that are argued about on so many of these blogs. If one has a larger need and/or capacity to love, then they will seek it and most likely be better at giving it. People disappoint, not love.
@Cless..
Keep seeking. I am an advocate of love myself and I realize that not all people require it. I’m undecided if I envy them or feel sorry for them. There truly is no higher high.
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anoukange:“Don’t give love an unfair shakedown just because people choose the wrong person to partner up with. If living with someone becomes boring or intolerable, or if days and nights are spent arguing and passing each other in the halls with indifference-then the wrong choice was made. Also, people are designed differently, their pie charts require varying degrees of varying needs in order to feel satisfied. The degrees of the need of it are subjective and it is those nuances that are argued about on so many of these blogs. If one has a larger need and/or capacity to love, then they will seek it and most likely be better at giving it. People disappoint, not love.”
You’re not the first to have taken this meaning, perhaps I left out some detail.
In none of my live-in relationships have I ever been treated poorly, nor has there been any great friction (I wouldn’t endure such a situation for long). By most standards, they were fairly agreeable relationships.
What I came to learn though was that the price of a happy relationship is the loss of so many other things you can do with your time, and there are only 24 hours in a day. The youthful desire of a young man for a woman’s love doesn’t fully appreciate this, and tends to inflate the satisfaction of the desire into something that it isn’t. The reality is much more commonplace, and the higher the expectation, the greater the chance of disappointment once the initial novelty wears off. That’s the few months I was referring to.
I may be assuming too much in what others say, but I recognize a similar dreamy hope for something that doesn’t really exist. For those who must have company, are realistic about what that means, and have no great other loves that compete for their time, then my comments are to be ignored.
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@ Asher
Your complete lack of understanding of genetics has been made clear.
BTW, Stormfront occupies a different site on the internet.
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Why would you love a harmful parasite?
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If whites were truly intelligent, why were they emptying chamberpots on streets till the last 150 years?
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Cless,
God doesn’t exist. That alone ruined the article for me.
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Liked this phrase: “This terrifies the casual-sexing divorce monkeys and suburban-bred office cows that mainstream American women have become”
Less so “If whites were truly intelligent, why were they emptying chamberpots on streets till the last 150 years?” who clearly hasn’t racially profiled things like (i) top scientific discoveries (ii) world empires (iii) invention of the flushing toilet
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@piercedhead: I’m of the belief that a good marriage multiplies your time and energy. Sure, you put a lot into it, but you also get (1) great sex, (2) a best friend who you see on a daily basis, and (3) most importantly, the experience of loving and being loved.
Time is not the bottleneck for most people, most of the time. 24 hours is an immense amount of time. Energy, on the other hand, is limited but not fixed in amount. This is why so many people spend 3-4 hours per day watching TV (or, for the educated equivalent, goofing off online). It seems like a good relationship, even if it costs some time, pays back in energy… if that makes any sense, kind of like how people are more productive when they’re working out.
It’s true, however, that most relationships are more of a drain than anything else. I think only 10-20% of them pay off positively on balance, which is why you need to be selective.
Dating quality isn’t a bell curve but a pyramid, which means that high-quality people are in a niche and could just get unlucky. The ability to date outside of one’s race and nationality is a boon to such people, who would otherwise face grinding dry spells.
The fact that interracial marriage rates increase with higher levels of education supports this.
What culture, heritage, and values will your future mixed-race children take pride in? Both? None? The poor confused kids.
This is not 1850, it’s 2009. Times have changed.
Actually, children of mixed-race (and mixed-ethnicity, I presume) tend to fit in better in society than children of only one race/ethnicity. But only if they acknowledge and are taught to appreciate BOTH sides of their ancestry (as I do). In America I’ve learned to answer “black” when I get the inevitable “What are you?” question. Here the one-drop rule still prevails. But that doesn’t stop me from feeling a strong affinity for my Germanic/Slavic roots.
This kind of multiracial upbringing results in a very powerful mix that is perfectly suited to our national multiracial environment:
1) I’m racially-ambiguous in appearance (think Soledad O’Brien and Adriana Lima) and behaviour (I don’t fit any stereotype). If I am angry nobody assumes it’s because I’m an “Angry Black Woman” and when I display my intelligence it is not assumed that I am intelligent because I’m Asian.
2) I have a very strong pride in my personal heritage rather than an attachment to a specific group. I am better able to appreciate the pride (not arrogance) others have in their ancestry and to take a genuine interest in other peoples’ culture. For this reason I have an extremely diverse social group.
3) I feel comfortable and “fit in” in many different social sets, regardless of racial/ethnic makeup. I look just as comfortable in a sari as in traditional Bavarian dress. I can dance salsa and Vienna waltz.
4) It is much more difficult for me to feel pigeon-holed by others. Whenever I hear someone make a racist statement (whether about blacks, whites, Asians, etc.) I am able to calmly refute it; I don’t take it personally. I don’t feel limited by other peoples’ prejudices.
5) Most of the mixed-race women I know have married “up” in a socio-economic sense and were given extra status-points on the dating market (if you can believe it). More choice = better mate. The men are also quite sought-after partners, for whatever reason. I’m known for complaining about black women’s underrated status on the dating market but, I must admit, my knowledge is purely second-hand. I never had any trouble dating whomever I wished to date and they were all quite eager for the attention and loathe to be rid of me.
6) I have never met a mixed-race person (who acknowledges all of their races) who would be willing to give up their mixed-race status to be monoracial. A monoracial identity is limiting and, IMO, actually rather boring.
Am I confused because I am not monoracial? No.
Actually I think that many monoracial people are a bit confused because they are mistaken in believing that integral aspects of their personality/accomplishments/talents are rooted in their race, rather than simply being able to take pride in their personal beauty and achievements.
The only negative I’ve experienced is the positive-stereotype of mixed-race people being unusually good-looking. I think that there may be some truth to this but it is a detrimental aspect to those mixed-race people who are not above-average in appearance.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1880467,00.html
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You know, maybe its me, but I think we all need to take a step back and take a deep breath. Let’s all try that right now: step back from the screen and take a few deep breaths…
OK.
Now, here’s my take on Cless:
I couldn’t care less what he chooses to do on his time and on his dime. If he likes Black Women, and they like him, good on him. No skin off my nose either way.
People have got to decide, if they’re for freedom of association, or if they’re not. It’s not rocket science, people-either you do, or you don’t. Me, I’m for it, and I also am for a Woman’s right to choose whom she will allow into her bed. If a Black Woman chooses Cless, I’m 100% cool with that.
So, all this stuff about IQ, and race differences, and this and that, mean absolutely NOTHING at the end of the day-and for those of you who claim to be so concerned about “saving” Western Civ, lemme save you the trouble-maybe Western Civ would actually better off if YOU were no longer around. Because if you ain’t getting married, having babies, homeschooling them, participating in the civic and political life where you live, lobbying Congressmen and Senators, mentoring other White kids, raising money for the causes you claim to care about and just basically doing anything over than bloviating on a blog anytime someone dares to stick his wick in a different colored pot, you really ain’t about nothing in the end. And where I come from, the World of Game, doing nothing, GETS YOU NOTHING.
So, let’s all lighten up on Cless here. The Man likes Black Women, the end. If you don’t like Black Women, the great thing about that is, YOU DON’T HAVE TO DEAL WITH EM. Problem. Solved.
Instead, why not devote more time to how to make your own life better? Isn’t that what the Spearhead is all about?
Come on, fellas. Give it a rest.
The Obsidian
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Obsidian,
I’ve been reading your posts over at Roissy’s (and you’re one of the few sane posters there, may I say) and I must give you props for hitting the point:
Why should they care?
That is the interesting question, IMO. The fact that they do care, and so passionately, makes me wonder what they’re really upset about.
Cless likes women. Period. He likes all kinds of women but he especially likes intelligent, classy, attractive women. The fact that some of those women may be black and that that doesn’t appall Cless is the true issue. These men are not convinced that intelligent, classy, attractive BLACK women even exist, and are certain that they don’t exist in significant numbers that would make them a viable group for finding a wife.
Furthermore, these men are so messed-up that they would advocate a life of emotionally-bereft masturbation or impersonal shagging or over a happy, sexually-fulfilling marriage to a woman, and certainly over marriage to a black woman.
Doesn’t that just scream “I’m a racist!” to you? But I’m sure they’re not racist. They probably have black friends and let black people use their toilet. Like this guy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/15/interracial-couple-denied_n_322784.html
My parents live in PG county, BTW. There are oodles of intelligent, attractive, classy, BLACK women there — including some of my favorite friends and family — and they tend to marry well, whether to white, black, Asian, whatever men.
And Cless lives in Harlem, dudes! Not in Idaho.
And this was funny:
bloviating on a blog anytime someone dares to stick his wick in a different colored pot
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28175.html
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Some of the comments here are truly amazing. Of all the articles I’ve seen posted to this site, Cless’ piece is probably the least controversial. And yet we get a veritable bevy of clowns posting about the vagaries of interracial marriage as if this is circa 1800. If you guys want to rail against interracial marriage, then go to Stormfront. But don’t bring that tired-ass bullshit in here—you will turn off guys who have something good to offer, and pigeonhole this site as a repository for neanderthals.
If this keeps up, then something will need to be done. I would like to suggest that people be required to sign in to comment. That way repeat offenders could simply be banned. If you are invested in having this site do well, and committed to having intelligent discourse then this won’t bother you.
My 2 cents.
PS,
Cless—I recently starting reading your blog and I like it. Of all the blogs that make up the MGTOW corner of the blogosphere, yours is among the more thoughtful that I’ve come across. Look forward to reading more from you.
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If you guys want to rail against interracial marriage, then go to Stormfront. But don’t bring that tired-ass bullshit in here—you will turn off guys who have something good to offer, and pigeonhole this site as a repository for neanderthals.
Thank you for pointing this out. Actually this is the first article I’ve read on this site and after reading through the comments my thought was: Is this a shoot-off of the Vanguard Network?
Perhaps you should delete my previous posts as I’m just feeding the trolls.
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@Piercedhead…
Thank you for your mature and thoughtful reply. Well said and I understand more clearly your points. I have had live-in relationships become better over time and love grow deeper. My ex traveled quite a bit for business so it was quite possibly the perfect split between time together and time apart. But in the end, love does and will dissipate and that is when one may get destroyed, however slowly or suddenly. Because of this pain and how much time it takes to get over someone I have had my hesitations about getting involved on such an invested level again. But like Cless, love is my heroin, and we’ve all read what a nasty yet splendid drug that is. Age is a huge factor for many guys I realize. I am/was 8 years younger than my ex and it happened that he was ready to involve himself in a live-in arrangement when we met because he had traveled, partied, followed the Dead, etc. Spending time in the company of a mind and spirit of someone that you enjoy greatly is a fantastic experience. We just have to prepare ourselves that love can be a temporary spell, but in my humble opinion, one still worth venturing into. Then again, I would also jump out of an airplane. Risk can pay off in large ways.
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Isn’t this, in itself, a racist statement?
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@Black&German: You articulated my sentiments very well. Thank you.
@anoukange:
It often does, but about 10-20% of couples are in love for the long-term. You have to beat the odds for marriage to make sense, but I think I will. I’m extremely selective, and completely willing to not marry, so settling’s out of the question.
I think long-term love requires (a) a partner who is also your best friend, and (b) attention to detail, including an enjoyment of frequent touch and shared humor– the “small things”. Hammering away toward orgasm isn’t what washes the body/brain with oxytocin (in fact, orgasmic sex without foreplay actually detracts from pair-bonding– the Coolidge effect). It’s soft, gentle lovemaking and continuous touching throughout the day. (Of course, the rough sex that feels like a roller-coaster ride is not a bad thing, but the gentle karezza-style love-making is how the pair bond is made.)
B&G,
Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. I try.
I think the reason why so many White guys go apeshit when things like Black Women are discussed, or the larger point of IR dating/mating that doesn’t involve Asian Women is discussed, is due not to a kind of visceral, gutter level Racism, ala the KKK, but rather because, such ideas are quite threatening to White guys. Hey, let’s face it, I may have had it hard in ways these guys will never know, but they’re the heirs to the throne, so to speak-not much was or is, ever expected of me and mine, and by that I mean, Hood folk.
On the other hand, many of the White guys who frequent this corner of the Internet, and by that I mean the Roissysphere, are highly educated, credentialed, and socialized-in other words, not only do they have high expectations for themselves, but they are keen to surround themselves with others that will reinforce those expectations. In so many ways, what Cless says, or what you say and perhaps most importantly, my very presence, is deeply troubling to these guys. It upsets the apple cart for them. Its just not right in their eyes. The Cognitive Dissonance reaches cacophonous levels. Entire paradigms and systems of belief have to be questioned, because let’s face it, in our time, “science” has taken the place of religion, and this happens as much for the Global Warming Crowd as it does for the HBD one.
Then, I think, there’s a kind of collective unease about our sexual past in America. As you’ve followed me over at Roissy’s I’m sure you will recall my many debates with some of the members there, on the question of the attractiveness of the Black Woman-many there, and probably here, will swear to high heaven that Sistas simply aren’t attractive-but when I ask them where’d all the lightskinned Black people come from then, they really go apeshit. You don’t even need Occam’s Razor for that one-it’s pretty obvious that quite a few White guys found African Slave Women sexually attractive enough to impregnate a goodly number of them, to the point where today, just about every African American can point to a White ancestor, almost always Male. *shrugs*
That, plus the fact that White guys, on a whole, seem to be much more sensitive about what others will think of who they boff, has a great deal to do with all the incohate knee jerking you’ve seen both at Roissy’s and here at the Spearhead. Afterall, you don’t need to be Jung to know that the louder a person shouts against something, the greater chance that something resides within oneself to begin with.
Again: where’d all the lightskinned Black Americans come from?
The Obsidian
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Cless Alvein October 15, 2009 at 3:22 pm
“@piercedhead, GM: I disagree. I think love is real, but it’s rare. Most married couples…I’d say 70 to 80 percent…fall out of love, especially in the US where a lot of women have no idea how to be good wives, and many husbands have no clue what is expected of them as husbands.”
Cless, you can disagree with the truth all you like
I am 45 and you are 26. I’ve counselled vast numbers of people on their relationships and marriages. My conclusion is that the women never loved men in the first place. Only what men provide. The Illuminati know this which is why that have made it possible for the women to get what the men provide sans man. It’s about depopulation. When they wanted population growth they made men necessary. It’s all a scam to manage the size of the ‘herd’! LOL!
Once a man understands that society has been manipulated by the Illuminati for at least 6,000 years the whole history of the world makes complete sense. The rise and fall of all the empires was a carefully staged charade to maked sure men never woke up to that they were being manipulated. The ‘external enemy’ created via location, race, religion etc was required. Until you look up far enough to know whos REALLY pulling the strings you will continue to be ‘guessing’ like I was until 12 months ago.
Cless Alvein October 16, 2009 at 7:27 am
“@piercedhead: I’m of the belief that a good marriage multiplies your time and energy.”
Maybe so. Alas there are less than 10% of marriages that are ‘good’ in the west any more and I suspect even that is a high estimate. Men won’t talk about how bad their marriage was until it’s over. You would not roll that dice if it were a business. And if you do get married and stay with the woman what do you get? You get to be screwing an old and ugly woman. Who wants that? Not me. I’ve been married for 18 years…even when it’s good it’s bad compared to being single. The only value a woman has to a man is to be the mother of his children. Take that away and they have no value at all apart from sex.
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Isn’t this, in itself, a racist statement?
You know, I knew you would take offense with that.
Not at all. This reflects reality (although mono-ethnic would be a better category; I tend to use the terms interchangeably when I actually mean “ethnicity” rather than “race”).
My husband is German and his parents are from the same town as their parents as their parents as their parents… all the way back to Roman times. It’s boring. Even he will tell you it’s boring. It would be much more interesting if he had a Russian grandfather or a Arabian great-grandmother. Instead of same-old, same-old.
It doesn’t make me love him any less or even think that he — in and of himself — is less interesting (because he’s a wonderful, fascinating person). I don’t presume to know anything about the intrinsic nature of a person based on their ethnicity/race — that would be racist. But it does mean that the narrative of his ancestry is relatively uninteresting. One Bavarian farmer after another. *snore* Not even a knight or a scientist or anything to liven up the story. Of course, at the point where he marries a colored girl and moves to America the story gets more exciting. LOL
I do think GERMAN history is interesting and I’m an avid scholar of it. After all, I’m German. But it just seems neat to be able to speak with an Japanese colleague and mention, “You know, my great-grandfather was from Japan.” or to be able to say to a black American friend, “Mmm, hmm. I totally understand about the issues of race in his candidacy. We are always having to deal with that, aren’t we?” or to commiserate with an Asian cousin, “Oh, I know. Don’t you just hate that “submissive housewife” label they try to pin on us?”
If anything, it is that chameleon-like nature that gets mixed-race people the most flack. Everybody insists you have to choose because they want to pin you down; to reduce you to a certain group so that they can paint the appropriate stereotypes on you.
But the truth is that most mixed-race/mixed-ethnicity people I know think that being so is… cool. We’re not social misfits, we don’t spend our evenings crying about our racial identity, we’re not suffering for lack of a mate, and we don’t wish we were white/black/whatever. We’re happy being just the way we are and wouldn’t change it even if we could. I wouldn’t give up
my black barbecues or my Bavarian fests,
my natural tan or my green eyes,
my black slang or my Bavarian drawl,
my black woman’s behind or my Bavarian rack,
my Gospel-choir soprano or my Bavarian Catholicism,
my American passport or my German Ausweis.
I’m quite happy the way I am and would recommend it to anyone. Go ahead, miscegenate. The kids will be fine. Just a bit stuck-up.
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Or to be more plain: Do you think anyone would have read Obama’s books if his dad had been white guy from Kansas?
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Obsidian—excellent comment. Get a blog. Now.
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Cless Alvein October 16, 2009 at 9:26 am
I’m not really sure if you are serious in providing that link. At first I laughed and though you must be joking but reading what you wrote there seems a chance you are serious. If you actually are serious let me provide you with three quotes:
“Researchers led by Bianca Acevedo at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York wanted to know if romantic love or at least the brain activity it triggers could last in a long-term relationship.”
“Most couples who have been together for many years experience a change from a frenetic, obsessive love to something more subdued and comfortable, says study coauthor Lucy Brown”
“Never get relationship advice from a woman” Dick Masterson.
The study you quote was authored by women at a feminised College. The Illuminati spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year promoting ‘love’ and the party that most benefits is women. Then it might not surprise you that they talk about how love is real.
Dick Masterson is simply a brilliant man living off his wits. Choose who you wish to get your advice from..
Love does not exist. You can invent it and make it up and live into it and it does feel good. I know. But it is still a story. Women do not fall ‘out of love’ with a man. They never loved him in the first place. Don’t fall for it.
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The idea that people who are “monoethnic”, as you put it, are limited or boring, even in the relative sense, is quite racist. You can try to cover your tracks by claiming that you aren’t making statements about someone’s “intrinsic nature”, but you’ve already called their ethnicity limited and boring. Pretty offensive statements.
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@Globalman
When you cite “The Illuminati” who are you referring to exactly? The actual group? The feminist movement??
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Co-sign Obsidian. Absolutely.
And this: Again: where’d all the lightskinned Black Americans come from? had me laughing. My American grandmother was a “light, bright, damned-near white” woman from South Carolina. She must have just dropped out of the sky in that form. LOL.
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Pretty offensive statements.
Feel free to be offended. Anyone else who would like to be offended is also free to feel so.
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Dragnet,
Inshallah, in 15 days my blog should be up and running. And, I just got the greenlight from Welmer to join the Spearhead Writer’s Corps. So, it’s good. Thanks for the kudos!
The Obsidian
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@ Cless…
I am in full agreement with you.
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nova@
“but you’ve already called their ethnicity limited and boring. Pretty offensive statements.”
Yeah. I can see your point. Of course a substantial portion of the commentators here posting, myself included, have at some time or another made statements concerning the ethnicity or race or another that can easily be construed as racist, or offensive.
But that’s no justification to making offensive statements. Putting things in perspective, many people find certain cultures, races, and ethnic groups to be intensely boring, whilst finding others to be rather interesting. People’s temperaments differ.
An example. One of my ex’s is German. She finds many aspects of German to be very boring while finding other aspects of, say, Turkish culture to be rather interesting. Now I’m fascinated by German folkish things – stuff that she finds embarrassing, or dull to an extreme. On the other hand I find certain cultures to be dull and boring that another finds very interesting.
Some people find Masai grass huts and villagers to be dull, boring, uninteresting, or offensively sub human. Others find them to be exceedingly interesting but find typical expressions of London culture to be dull boring, or offensively sub human. A Masai or Englishman respectively is free to either be complemented, or offended, thereby.
People with cosmopolitan sensibilities will typically find folkish, and provincial cultures to be boring. Some people, like myself, find them to be quite interesting.
Something can be said, of course, for having the maturity and social intelligence to avoid unduly offensive language in describing a culture to which one does not belong. It’s sorta like good breeding; along the lines of not picking your nose in public and eating the leavings, and not tracking mud on white carpets.
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Novaseeker,
Okay. I’ve thought about it some more and I see what you mean. That that could be seen as a racist statement. If I could edit the post I would remove it but I can’t so I’ll just recant here.
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Cless, you seem like a sweet guy, so I hope you find what you’re looking for.
I have many attractive asian, bi-racial, and middle-eastern friends with admirable personalities who often get over-looked by the dating population of males.
My advice to you is to cast a wide net and seek out many non-whites until you find someone that you can be happy with. Also, be careful about marriage. These days it might be better to simply engage in a long term relationship, than to deal with the bureaucracy that is the modern day marriage. With a LTR, you may get stuck with child-support if worse comes to worst, but at least you won’t be stuck with an eternity of alimony payments you can’t afford.
I agree with Welmer, it’s not so much an issue of race, it’s an issue of culture. Even as a white chick, I can agree that the prevailing culture of the middle class white American chick is one of “diva-dom.”
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That’s fair enough, B&G — no worries.
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The responses warrant three responses.
First, a brief summary of some relevant pages from eugenics.net;
second, some notes on personal shaming language;
third, some hard-core statistics.
The following text is comprised of unauthorized quotations.
…
it will be useful to summarise H and M’s major points. These are
(1) the social structure of the United States is to some degree genetically stratified by intelligence and has at its apex a ‘cognitive elite’ of professionals and senior executives who are genetically superior to the rest of the population; this situation has come about relatively recently through social mobility, by which those with high IQs have risen in the social hierarchy and those with low IQs have fallen;
(2) this social stratification by IQ has increased in recent decades as a result of greater equality of opportunity through which those with high IQs are increasingly securing entry to elite universities and occupations, where they are meeting and marrying people like themselves and having elite children; this has been producing a widening intelligence gap between the social classes and this is likely to continue, leading to a caste society with increasingly genetically differentiated social classes;
(3) for this to be taking place, intelligence must have a reasonably high heritability, which H and M estimate as lying between 40-80 percent;
(4) intelligence is socially important and is a significant determinant of educational attainment, social status and incomes;
(5) low intelligence is a significant determinant of a variety of social pathologies including poor educational attainment, chronic unemployment, long term welfare dependency, crime, single motherhood and poverty;
(6) these social evils would be reduced if the intelligence of the population could be increased and it would be desirable if this could be accomplished;
(7) there is little chance of being able to do this because the things that have been tried as improving education and headstart programs have little or no impact on intelligence;
(8) the situation is getting worse because the genetic component of intelligence is deteriorating through the process of dysgenesis or dysgenics resulting from the tendency of the intelligent to have fewer children than the unintelligent, for the generation length to be shorter for the less intelligent, and through the large scale immigration of those with low intelligence;
(9) blacks have on average lower intelligence than whites and Asians and this contributes to the over-representation of blacks in respect of the social pathologies of poor educational attainment, single motherhood, crime, etc.; the low average IQ of blacks probably has some genetic basis; the social condition of blacks is likely to deteriorate in the future because dysgenics is greater among blacks than among whites and this will lead to a widening of the intelligence gap between blacks and whites;
(10) nothing much can be done about any of this; the United States will become increasingly like South America, with high IQ whites and Asians living in fortified enclaves protected by high fences and armed guards from ‘the menace of the slums below’ (p. 518);
(11) the future is consequently pretty bleak and the best that can be done is to try to return to a simpler small town America of yore in which the unintelligent could be usefully employed doing cognitively undemanding jobs and the local cognitive elite could exercise stronger social controls over those who step out of line by punishing them more swiftly and effectively than is done in the megalopises of the contemporary world.
http://www.eugenics.net/papers/RLSPECREV.htm
DS: Three years after publication of The Bell Curve, I find myself endlessly reading news stories about great national controversies in which all the participants do their best to ignore the data you and Dick Herrnstein laid on the table. Three recent examples:
1) the row over school vouchers, whose advocates (e.g., Bill Bennett in the Wall Street Journal) endlessly take it for granted that poor performance by students reflects only inadequacies by the teaching profession — inadequacies among the learners being a huge unmentionable;
2) the President’s astounding proposal (never characterized as such) that all American youngsters, including those with IQs at the left tail, should have at least two years of college;
3) the expressions of surprise and rage when it turned out that, in the absence of affirmative action, prestigious law schools would be admitting hardly any black students. The participants in these controversies were in no sense talking back to The Bell Curve. They were pretending its data do not exist. What’s your perspective?
CM: I read the same stories you do and ask the same question: Do these guys know but pretend not to? Or are they still truly oblivious? In the case of education vouchers, there is a sensible reason to ignore The Bell Curve: inner-city schools are overwhelmingly lousy. Bill Bennett has read the book, understands it, and (rare indeed) has defended it on national television. But his battle cry is, and should be, “These kids are getting a raw deal” — not a lot of qualifications about the difficulties in raising IQ.
Bill Clinton and his pandering on college education is another story altogether. Vouchers for elementary school can be a good policy idea, no matter what our book says about IQ. But universal college education cannot be. Most people are not smart enough to profit from an authentic college education. But who among Republicans has had the courage to call Clinton on this one? A lot of silence about The Bell Curve can be put down to political cowardice.
http://www.eugenics.net/papers/mssel.html
“[Steven Jay] Gould occupies a rather curious position, particularly on his side of the Atlantic. Because of the excellence of his essays, he has come to be seen by non-biologists as the pre-eminent evolutionary theorist. In contrast, the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists.”
…
discoveries using Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI), which creates a three-dimensional image of the living brain, have shown a strong positive correlation (0.44) between brain size and intelligence. And there is more. The National Collaborative Perinatal Study, as reported by Sarah Broman and her colleagues, showed that head perimeter measured at birth significantly predicts head perim-eter at 7 years — and head perimeter at both ages predicts IQ. Recent studies also show that head size and IQ vary with social class. It is now clear that the nineteenth-century pioneers were right.
http://www.eugenics.net/papers/jprnr.html
Social science today condones and perpetuates a great falsehood – one that undergirds much current social policy. This falsehood, or “egalitarian fiction,” holds that racial-ethnic groups never differ in average developed intelligence (or, in technical terms, g, the general mental ability factor). While scientists have not yet determined their source, the existence of sometimes large group differences in intelligence is as well-established as any fact in the social sciences. How and why then is this falsehood perpetrated on the public? What part do social scientists themselves play, deliberately or inadvertently, in creating and maintaining it? Are some of them involved in what might be termed “collective fraud?” Intellectual dishonesty among scientists and scholars is, of course, nothing new. But watchdogs of scientific integrity have traditionally focused on dishonesty of individual scientists, while giving little attention to the ways in which collectivities of scientists, each knowingly shaving or shading the truth in small but similar ways, have perpetuated frauds on the scientific community and the public at large. Perhaps none of the individuals involved in the egalitarian fiction could be accused of fraud in the usual sense of the term. Indeed, I would be the first to say that, like other scientists, most of these scholars are generally honest. Yet, their seemingly minor distortions, untruths, evasions, and biases collectively produce and maintain a witting falsehood. Accordingly, my concern here is to explore the social process by which many otherwise honest scholars facilitate, or feel compelled to endorse, a scientific lie.
http://www.eugenics.net/papers/Gottfredson.htm
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Marius, I’m not going to delete your comment, but this really isn’t the proper venue. There are plenty of other places to discuss HBD issues.
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Mjaybee October 15, 2009 at 11:21 pm
@ Asher
Your complete lack of understanding of genetics has been made clear.
MJaybee, are you prepared to set yourself up as an authority on genetics or statistics? Because if you’re an academic authority – a professor, for example – you could save me some time by posting the titles of the textbooks and journals that you find to be relevant to this issue.
In fact, even if you a student of such matters, it might advance the discussion to mention the texts that you consider important.
On a personal note, I am not an authority concerning biology or statistics, and of the two I practice statistics more frequently.
Some books I have found useful in the past (but do not currently have access to) include the works of Carlton Coon:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/biography/abcde/coon_carlton.html
It is noteworthy that Wikipedia has a “criticism” section in its entry on Coon that cites Gould:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleton_S._Coon
I adamantly contend that Gould was at best delusional and at worst a knowing perpetrator of fraud. I call this a “contention” rather than a “fact” because contentions of fact are so often both contentious and tendentious.
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Enough, Marius. This isn’t the place. There are plenty of other sites.
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@Welmer
I’m not going to delete your comment, but this really isn’t the proper venue. There are plenty of other places to discuss HBD issues.
I stand corrected, and withdraw my comment about my three responses being required; HBD statistics are for other websites.
To return to the topic of love, I heartily support the freedom of every person to love whomever he can love.
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No problem, Marius, you’re welcome here.
I just don’t want us to get sidetracked by long-winded arguments about something that ought to be on isteve or GNXP.
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@Marius
I’ve studied IQ and intelligence quite a bit. Let’s just say that, when you’re seen as an asexual “brain in a jar” by women your age, even at an Ivy-caliber college, you can’t get away from high-intelligence and HI dating issues. It’s a part of your life. HI dating is very rough. It’s niche dating like that inside a tiny ethnic enclave, except one that has been placed in diaspora by nature, and that has absolutely no visible identifications.
Let me put forward one HI-related argument for interracial dating.
One marital/reproductive threat to HI people, which any person remotely familiar with genetics knows, is autism-spectrum disorders. Autism and Asperger’s Syndrome are exploding in Silicon Valley, the most concentrated HI-community in the world. Even with that aside, probably 80% of HI people experience some social deficit between ages 12 and 22. No one knows why this is for sure, but it’s suspected that certain “smart genes” are beneficial when single but damaging when doubled-up.
This is why I’m more inclined to seek an intellectual complement, rather than a twin. For me, an intensely creative, curious, and refined English major with an IQ of 125 would beat out an incurious, arrogant, investment-banking bore with 140. (I’ve met both types.) It’s also one incentive to marry someone of another race– although I’ll readily admit that I have no evidence, other than a hunch and the vague concept of “hybrid vigor”, to back up my slight supposition that this better guards my future children against HI abnormalities and social deficiencies.
The claims of genetically-rooted racial averages are based on incredibly sloppy science. As for whether there is a difference in the averages, I don’t know. There’s no evidence for a difference, and anything about averages is irrelevant since I only date (and, really, only can date) within the HI pool, which is preselected to such a degree that makes racial averages utterly irrelevant. Note that if I’m having kids with someone, I have a good idea how smart she is, so HBD scare tactics won’t deter me. If I date a 125+ IQ black woman, I’m very likely to have smart children.
Finally, Marius, if the black IQ distribution really is (85, 13) as the Bell Curvers claim, then why is the rightward tail so “fat”? Smart black people (130+) aren’t remotely as rare as they’d be under that distribution. I know several blacks who are probably above 150 (let’s just say that I’ve been involved in some high-profile activities and met a lot of people, of all races and nationalities, much more brilliant than I am).
I can actually effectively refute the (85,13) distribution anecdotally. Since women’s IQs seem to have 90% the standard deviation of the general population– nature takes more risks with men– we’d expect this to put black women at (85, 11.7), making a 130+ black woman nearly 3.85 sigma, or 1 out of 16000. If this were the case, it would mean that there are only 100 130+ black women born in the US between 1985 and 1989… which is obviously ridiculous, because there are many more. I’ve dated three who are almost certainly 130+ (and have tried to date a few more). I definitely have NOT dated, or even met, anywhere close to 3% of the smart early-20s black women.
I’m heartened to see I’m not the only guy on this forum who thinks that educated black women are an undervalued resource. I’ve been celibate for several years but before that I dated a couple of really great black women that had a refreshing lack of personality disorders. When I was first reading mgtow forums, I posted as much and the disgustingly ignorant responses I got made me want to throw up. I see some of that on this thread of course but at least there are voices that serve as a counterbalance.
I would agree with the poster who said Asian-American women are pretty much like white women, except that they are often smart as hell and hard workers.
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it’s not so much an issue of race, it’s an issue of culture. Even as a white chick, I can agree that the prevailing culture of the middle class white American chick is one of “diva-dom.â€
I agree. There are black and other women who act like this as well. But it is definitely more prevalent among white women. But I have to ask, why do white men put their women up on pedestals and then complain about them behaving like royalty?
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As far as race and IQ goes, I am no expert. However, my son underwent an IQ test recently (WPPSI-III and a few others) and I was surprised by how culturally-dependent many of the questions are. Asking about American sports stuff. For example, how in the world is my 4 year-old German-raised boy supposed to know that a soccer ball is not a football? The rest of the world calls it a football.
He scored in the gifted range anyway (score was held up by a stratospheric nonverbal result), but I was just surprised by the tests’ content. I thought they’d gotten rid of that kind of stuff?
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B&G, please do not let yourself get sidetracked by the socalled IQ debate. Its one bigassed Red Herring:
WHO GIVES A YOU KNOW WHAT SOMEONE’S IQ IS, & WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO W/THE CURRENT TOPIC, OR HAVE TO DO W/IMPROVING ANY MAN’S LIFE HERE???
I mean, really. What is up with that?
Also, wrt White guys putting their Women on pedestals:
Honestly, it’s my view that many of them have totally unrealistic views wrt Women in general-they want to be able to enjoy the sluts, but then expect to be able to settle down w/”good girls” and the reality is that its unrealistic to expect this in today’s time. A lot of the White guys I observe just have these completely off the wall expectations of Women that, wow, I really don’t know what to say. No wonder so many of them are so unhappy. When you have such worldviews, you’re setting yourself up for some real unhappiness.
The Obsidian
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Confound you, Cless!! Don’t you know that when someone posts bunk science and Steve Sailorisms, you’re just supposed to nod along in abject agreement. Or at the very least not challenge them. But no…you come along with your logic, and analysis and common sense and blow it all to hell.
You, sir, have crossed the line
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B&G, please do not let yourself get sidetracked by the socalled IQ debate.
LOL. You caught me. I’m a complete sucker for a red herring. It’s so easy to get me to go off on a tangent; I have the attention span of a gnat, in that respect.
A lot of the White guys I observe just have these completely off the wall expectations of Women that, wow, I really don’t know what to say.
Yeah, I see that too. They pretend to prefer quality women but then they pass up 5 quality women to go hit on someone completely common. And then they cry foul when she sleeps with their best friend or leaves them for her boss. *roll eyes*
Guys:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck… it’s a duck. Get over it. If you don’t want a duck then don’t date a duck. And I’m going to tell you the shocking truth: a yellow duck is not going to be any better than a brown one. A duck is a duck, whatever the color.
This reminds me of a (German — yeah, they fall for this, too) guy I used to work with. He fell head-over-heels for this pretty blond woman that had Bad News written all over her (but she was blond and hot so it was okay). Then he married her and impregnated her and then (surprise, surprise) she didn’t morph into Super White Woman Mother like he expected.
He’d come home and the house was a mess, she hadn’t even taken a shower, there was nothing to eat, the kid was wearing a dirty diaper, etc. Instead of complaining he’d just clean up, cook dinner, take care of his son, etc. Then one day he finally got up the courage to complain and she promptly took his son and moved in with her mother because she “felt that he just didn’t appreciate her”. She was shacking up with someone else within a month and dumped her kid off with her mother (he eventually got full custody later).
But I’m sure that was all okay because… you know… she was blond and hot. Being blond and hot is important in the larger scheme of things and should definitely be high on the list of “must haves” when it comes to choosing a wife. Definitely more important than character or having a decent personality. The closer she looks to Britney Spears the better a mother she will be.
Britney’s funny because there are all of these American white guys saying, “Oh, but she looked so sweet and nice. She’s blond and hot so how can she be such a loser and terrible mother?” Umm… hate to break it to you guys but she had “I am a skank.” practically tattooed on her forehead right from the beginning. Are they blind or just stupid?
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Yeah, but that’s like men bitching that so many women are attracted to alpha types and then moaning about how “there are no good men”. Men and women are both attracted to types that are not necessarily good for them. Pointing fingers and bitching at them for being like that isn’t very productive, it seems to me. What I mean is that it isn’t going to change the behavior. Yes, a lot of men choose women on stupid criteria, just as many women choose men on stupid criteria. There are a lot of stupid people in the world.
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Yes, a lot of men choose women on stupid criteria, just as many women choose men on stupid criteria.
Yeah, we all make stupid choices sometimes. But there’s no need to marry them and reproduce with them!
I guess I have (had, since I’m married now) the “modern black woman” habit of vetting. People need to keep their legs closed until they know what they’re dealing with. Infatuation can lead to some majorly bad decisions. You’ve got to keep your cool and think straight and ask important questions. Just straight-up ask stuff you want to know. If she’s worth a darn she’ll have questions for you, too. Run, don’t walk, from any woman willing to sleep with you without really knowing you first.
Watch her:
– Does she put more effort into her appearance and status than into her personal development (education, character, faith, etc.)?
– Is she obsessed with how other people see her or is she an independent thinker?
– Does she think it is reasonable to expect people to sacrifice temporary wants and needs for the sake of their children?
– Does she have trouble being affectionate outside of the bedroom?
– Does she live off of fast food and ready-made meals (sorry, but you need to at least be able to prepare a halfway-decent meal if you’re going to be a mother)?
– Does she seem to be “always busy” and “super popular”?
– Is she loathe to discuss anything not involving herself, her friends, town gossip, or pop culture?
– Is she able to think logically and sequentially or does she tend to regurgitate things she’s heard?
– Is she coquettish or does she seem honest and open?
Etc., etc.
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@Marius:
I have a PhD in genetics and embryology. My undergraduate advisor, who is an African-american from Oklahoma (in whose lab I did research for two years) did his undergrad work at Harvard, got his PhD from Berkeley, and postdoctoral work in the ETH in Switzerland and the John Innes Institute in the UK.
I hope this blog doesn’t turn into another white racist screed like so many other men’s blogs.
Head to The Rawness or Man’s Playbook: the black run blogs seem a lot more cosmopolitan and sophisticated than most.
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@B&G:
Women have an alpha problem similar to the ones men face. We men basically like most women, and we’re not sexually that selective, but most of us are idiots when it comes to what we pursue on the field. The borderline fetish our society has for white blondes is an example of this. A white woman who dyes her hair blond will get 3 times as many approaches, even though blonds aren’t rated any higher by men for long-term appeal.
I think you have a great checklist. Here are some of my early clues.
Early on:
1. Does she return calls promptly? Occasional delays of 1+ day happen, because people lose their phones, crash at 7 pm, etc., but the median turnaround should be no more than 60 minutes, so long as you’re calling during appropriate hours (7 – 10 pm).
2. Does she touch you casually during conversation? If a girl doesn’t touch me on the arm, by her own volition, on the first date, I don’t give her a second one. No exceptions.
3. How does she react to interracial dating? I’m white, but with online dating sites, I auto-reject anyone who doesn’t select “Any” race in what they’re willing to date– especially the ones who check every race but black. Also, I’ve noticed that some white women react badly to learning that you’ve dated black girls; throw them back as well.
4. Is she a freeloader? Grad students and women who are unemployed are generally exempt from this “test”. I pay for dinner on the first dinner date. If it’s going well, I take her for post-dessert coffee or dessert. The best women always offer to pay dessert (which is less pricey than the dinner).
Later on:
5. How is she to shop with? If she’s indecisive or overly picky, this is a problem, because it’s indicative of a maximizing/”trading up” attitude toward men. If she berates you for making a second-rate choice on a table, after the fact, that’s a horrible sign. Your relationship will probably fall apart shortly after the first time you lease or buy a place together.
6. Does she hold herself to a high moral standard? She should be sexually conservative, with no one-night stands or cheating in her history, but not religiously intolerant or bigoted.
7. What are her religious views? This one is personal and wouldn’t pertain to everyone. Half of my best friends are atheist, but I’m definitely not, and I wouldn’t want to marry one and face sickness/death with someone who believes this world is all that exists. I actually turned down an amazing woman– an IBW, actually
– because she had absolutely no religious beliefs. If she were spiritual, I might be engaged to her right now. My 21-year-old self would have still slept with her, because she was gorgeous, but my 25-year-old self didn’t want to risk hurting someone I would have to change before I could marry.
No, it won’t, but the onus is on everyone here (white, black or other) to be civil. I will do my best to monitor comments, but I don’t have 24 hours per day, and I think most of us are adults here who can heed the commenting policy.
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@Cless:
Yeah, the blond thing is weird. I’d like to let it be known that I have nothing against blonds. My husband is blond, my daughter is blond, my godmother is blond, etc. I just don’t understand how being blond could be such a draw that you’d gloss over major personality flaws. This is especially crazy since I know that most blond women aren’t natural blonds. It’s just hair dye! What exactly does the blond hair signify that men go so ga-ga over them? It’s completely irrational.
This is one of the great mysteries of modern civilization. LOL.
I like your list. May I comment?:
1. Does she return calls promptly?
Oh, yeah. This is a big one. Avoid anybody who flakes. They keep doing that even after your married. They’re the women who “go out to buy some milk” and come home 4 hours later. Or who agree to pick up the kids from preschool and then call last-minute to announce that their best friend is over and can you “please go pick up the kids”. It’s just plain rude and shows a general lack of interest in other people.
3. How does she react to interracial dating?
Interracial dating is the true racist-test. You don’t want a racist, ever. They tend to have other problems, as well.
4. Is she a freeloader?
I probably wouldn’t have offered to pay for dessert but if a guy passes the first date I’d usually offer to cook dinner the next time. I’m a fabulous cook so that usually turned out well.
5. How is she to shop with? If she’s indecisive or overly picky, this is a problem, because it’s indicative of a maximizing/â€trading up†attitude toward men.
Not only that but indecisiveness will just drive you batty after a while. It’s a generally annoying habit. I know women who will drag their husbands to 10 shoe stores just to buy a pair of boots.
6. Does she hold herself to a high moral standard?
What about: Is she willing to admit when she was wrong? Can she show humility and apologize?
7. What are her religious views?
Yeah, my second boyfriend was an atheist. He wasn’t a bad guy but it became a problem, eventually. Everytime I’d get ready to go to Mass he’d start lecturing me on how religion was the “opium of the masses”. It got old, quick.
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Obsidian and marius@
So, I was going to respond in greater depth to Marius’s points on IQ distribution, but Welmar’s admonition, and Cless’s response, made this pointless.
I will make a couple of non-racial points.
” ..this social stratification by IQ has increased in recent decades as a result of greater equality of opportunity through which those with high IQs are increasingly securing entry to elite universities and occupations, where they are meeting and marrying people like themselves and having elite children; this has been producing a widening intelligence gap between the social classes and this is likely to continue, leading to a caste society with increasingly genetically differentiated social classes;”
A reified cognitive elite has always existed in modern Anglo-American societies.
The Anglo-Saxon upper classes and upper-middle classes have been cognitively demarcated for the better part of 2 centuries. Actually longer, but it’s become especially acute since the late 1700s.
Sure, you have inbred elite dullards, due no doubt to over-enthusiastic fascination with eugenics and interbreeding. This occurred in specific families, often near the top of the class structure. This said, extreme social stratification along intellectual and cognitive lines is an old theme in English society and specific institutions have existed in England and America for centuries to facilitate this sorting out.
What is new is the extreme mobility in contemporary post-war Anglo-American societies allowing entrance into the lower and middle ranks of this cognitive elite. The professional classes have been extended to breeding stocks typically excluded prior to WW II. In America even further back actually, to the 1900’s there was extreme white mobility if one could acquire financing and professional training. Law and Medicine were great avenues for advancement, as were accounting and corporate management after the civil war.
There is a good amount of literature out there dealing with the English class system and its early American analog. But this body is probably inferior to actual incidental social and scientific writings by upper class authors in that period.
I’ve spent the better part of the last two years delving into the writings of 19th and early 20th century Anglo-American elite writers. It started innocently, for a decade I was fascinated with a few themes; 1. Fabian Socialism, the rise of British Labour, and the takeover of the old Liberals; 2. Class war, racial war, and Racial Hygiene; and 3. Eugenics, Malthusian thought and its discontents, and general Population control.
This all grew out of a general desire to understand how American culture evolved to the point it did. So at a certain point I really wanted to understand the wider worldview of the individuals in the background of these themes. Specifically, the 19th and early 20th century upper classes, and to a much lesser degree the upper middle classes.
I wanted to read directly what key figures themselves were writing. From that I just drifted into reading a lot of elite class writings and literature. Since literacy was fairly restricted, until recently, to the upper, upper middle, and middle classes, and given the expense of books and limited print runs, I noticed a bit of candor in 18th to early 20th century on certain matters. This candor dwindles as time passes, writers certainly knew who their audiences were, and wrote with this in mind, but on themes of class and the cognitive demarcations in society, there are a lot of interesting views out there if you can get a hold of the right authors. It’s a crapshoot, and since I tend to just randomly munch on books over long periods of time, a disorganized grazing led to this. Someone with real time on his hand and motivation may find far more interesting things than I could even imagine.
Some themes underlying progressive education grew out of this background. For example Bertrand Russell’s Education and the Good Life reads with a certain naivety nowadays, but views like his fill in the general picture of what cognitive elites believed back then (and Russell certainly was a member of the cognitive and literary elite, with no doubt).
“for this to be taking place, intelligence must have a reasonably high heritability”
This is an inference. It is not the only one possible. The inference is easy to make in the presence of a certain body of data. When other factors are brought to bear then holding this position rigidly becomes a more tendentious matter. It is entirely probable that there is a high degree of heritability to raw naked general intelligence, but other factors can, and often do, interfere such as diet and nutrition, education, social conditioning, general social and physical environmental factors, and simple will power which is affected by culture as well as innate virtue. A culture encouraging stupidity will and does produce stupid people. A culture encouraging
I have great respect for the intent behind efforts like headstart and a number of other similar educational programs, but I note their failure well. The entirety of American education seems almost calculatedly designed to produce certain outcomes, and attempts at reform and tinkering tend to reflect the same premises that introduced the initial problems.
There is a body of literature dealing with early criticism of progressive education, decades ago. Some of it pre-war. I encourage interested guys to head to local university libraries and dig into the stacks in the education sections, or old used bookstores. There is a good deal of early criticism out there that, when read in light of contemporary problems, just leaves you shaking your head.
I also recommend John Taylor Gatto. His website sucks, but his books are very, very, good. Damning, and will send a chill down your spine. A good deal of what is wrong with modern education is a side effect of well intentioned concerns with eugenics. And I will leave it at that.
Obsidian@
“Also, wrt White guys putting their Women on pedestals:
Honestly, it’s my view that many of them have totally unrealistic views wrt Women in general-they want to be able to enjoy the sluts, but then expect to be able to settle down w/â€good girls†“
Yeah… I was having a conversation with one young friend of mine, and the guy has a total Madonna whore complex that really makes him unhappy, because the basic human expressions of sexuality among many girls he knows leaves him with a sort of “they are all whores†mentality. It makes him uphappy.
I honestly don’t think it’s a white thing though – I think this is more class than race related. You find something similar in black upper-middle classes, but you don’t find it as much in white working and lower classes. When I was younger I worked a few construction jobs, in the Midwest, and was the only black guy on the crew. All of my white co-workers had really… realistic attitudes about setting girls on pedestals. Hell, they taught me a few things…
I think there is a general upper-middle class (professional class, or managerial class) tendency in English speaking cultures to put chicks up on pedestals. It’s sort of related to chivalry. It probably had a good and decent origins but is, like, totally out of control nowadays and makes guys really, really, unhappy.
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B&G@
“Yeah, I see that too. They pretend to prefer quality women but then they pass up 5 quality women to go hit on someone completely common. And then they cry foul when she sleeps with their best friend or leaves them for her boss. *roll eyes*”
Women do this too.
A lot.
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B&G continued@
“But I’m sure that was all okay because… you know… she was blond and hot. Being blond and hot is important in the larger scheme of things and should definitely be high on the list of “must haves†when it comes to choosing a wife.”
But this had me in stitches.
Totally.
I think that one problem is that we men today do NOT have that traditional voice even telling us what is a bad news chick. What seems obvious to males is often not to females, and what you females may think is obvious is often not to males.
Fathers once played a very important role in helping to mold a young man’s understanding of sexuality. Today guys are turned loose to the wolves and the media is our tutor. Sure, some dads step in. Many can’t, due to divorce. I wasn’t even able to cement a solid relationship with my dad until my 20s. This caused me to rapidly have to play catch-up gleaning wisdom that I could have acquired in my teens, a decade later in my early to mid 20s.
It’s complex, but part of the problem we men face is that for the first time in centuries we in general are literally standing alone, among the ruins. Sure there have always been boys without dads, they gleaned what they could from their older brothers but many modern families are very small, which means the body of passers of male wisdom is much smaller. So you end up getting what you can from snuck copies of Playboy and Penthouse reading them with your buddies in alleyways behind school during lunchtime (totally dating myself here, I think that’s what the Internet is for today..)
It is a scary feeling to stand alone amidst the ruins.
But it is potentially a liberating one as well.
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Fathers once played a very important role in helping to mold a young man’s understanding of sexuality.
Totally. My husband is a lot like his father and I’m a lot like his mother. Which is why she and I don’t really get along. LOL.
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I like some of the points in the post (love is more than just sex, just focusing on race is impotent), but there are a few things I don’t buy.
Race matters. Every scientific study shows it does, still, maybe now more than ever. Most people want to mate with people of a similar or identical ethnic background. Thinking we can go through thousands of years of evolution and suddenly go liberal just ain’t realistic.
Status matters. Evolutionary pressure means the dating market adjusts to how we behave, what we work with, how we dress etc. Brutal but true. Some call it HBD here, I call it evolutionary reality.
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Most people want to mate with people of a similar or identical ethnic background.
Yes, of course they do. We all know that. We’re just pointing out that it is limiting their dating choices.
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Yes, of course they do. We all know that. We’re just pointing out that it is limiting their dating choices.
We all know that, too, so the implied statement seems to be that we shouldn’t do it, because “love” somehow transgresses race.
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Please elaborate. What you wrote isn’t very clear.
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I just disagree with this: “We just don’t find racial similarity important in choosing a mating partner– at all.”
For those who care to read, I wrote a longer response to the post here: http://www.corrupt.org/news/re_love_and_race_in_modern_west
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@Black and German,
“”1) I’m racially-ambiguous in appearance (think Soledad O’Brien and Adriana Lima) and behaviour (I don’t fit any stereotype). If I am angry nobody assumes it’s because I’m an “Angry Black Woman†and when I display my intelligence it is not assumed that I am intelligent because I’m Asian.
2) I have a very strong pride in my personal heritage rather than an attachment to a specific group. I am better able to appreciate the pride (not arrogance) others have in their ancestry and to take a genuine interest in other peoples’ culture. For this reason I have an extremely diverse social group.
3) I feel comfortable and “fit in†in many different social sets, regardless of racial/ethnic makeup. I look just as comfortable in a sari as in traditional Bavarian dress. I can dance salsa and Vienna waltz.
4) It is much more difficult for me to feel pigeon-holed by others. Whenever I hear someone make a racist statement (whether about blacks, whites, Asians, etc.) I am able to calmly refute it; I don’t take it personally. I don’t feel limited by other peoples’ prejudices.
5) Most of the mixed-race women I know have married “up†in a socio-economic sense and were given extra status-points on the dating market (if you can believe it). More choice = better mate. The men are also quite sought-after partners, for whatever reason. I’m known for complaining about black women’s underrated status on the dating market but, I must admit, my knowledge is purely second-hand. I never had any trouble dating whomever I wished to date and they were all quite eager for the attention and loathe to be rid of me.
6) I have never met a mixed-race person (who acknowledges all of their races) who would be willing to give up their mixed-race status to be monoracial. A monoracial identity is limiting and, IMO, actually rather boring.
Am I confused because I am not monoracial? No.
Actually I think that many monoracial people are a bit confused because they are mistaken in believing that integral aspects of their personality/accomplishments/talents are rooted in their race, rather than simply being able to take pride in their personal beauty and achievements.
The only negative I’ve experienced is the positive-stereotype of mixed-race people being unusually good-looking. I think that there may be some truth to this but it is a detrimental aspect to those mixed-race people who are not above-average in appearance.”
ok, I’m new to all of this, but as a non biracial black woman, I take offense to this. It seems that you are saying that because you are biracial, you have a one up on us. In terms of dating choices and looks. That is not true at all. There is attractive and not so in all races. Black women are unusually good looking too. In fact, if you are a full black woman who is considered beautiful, then you MUST be.
Please know that I’m not attacking, just offended.
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love and basketball,
Hello!
I do think that biracial women have more dating choices than “full black women”. Dating choices are not necessarily dependent on beauty but on “beauty ratings”, which incorporate race and status. If you would like to see my views on black women’s beauty you should check out my posts over here. If you check out the index you will see that he has blogged about the subject in-depth and I have commented on every post.
If it makes you feel better, the post you quoted has been torn to shreds in multiple replies in various blogs. Most of my quotes get torn to shreds. *sigh* I seem to be quite good at offending pretty much everyone.
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The “here” is supposed to link to Abagond’s.
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Hello!
I would like to respectfull disagree. In my experience, I don’t think that biracial women have more dating choices. Honestly, most white men can’t distinguish a biracial from a black. Especially after they are no longer kids. And other races never consider skin color, they just want someone who is attractive and compatible and that is could be women of all races – even black.
Black men may be the most receptive, but it’s not the rule. They just want that exotic look, rather that look is from a biracial, black women with curly hair and exotic features, latina or whatever.
Frankly, I kinda see why so many have objected to those comments because it sounds somewhat arrogant. But I don’t think, or at least I hope, that was not your intention.:)
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Opps, I meant respectfully disagree.
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I did read agagond’s blog, but I didn’t see anything remotely like this post on there. Which is wise because those women are hardcore in their beliefs and wouldn’t appreciate the implication that they “rate” lower than anyone else.
Also, in those dating studies, there is biracial women are not exclusive of black. In the race and dating, the categories were black, white, middle eastern, latina, asian. They include biracial with black. That’s something to think about.
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Obviously there’s nothing wrong with IR dating or marriage but… as a woman I have never loved a man? I’m so glad a strange 40+ year old man was here to tell me that about myself. It’s wonderful to know that every relationship I have been in has been nothing but a sham. None of the other female readers here take issue with that statement in the comments?
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Which is wise because those women are hardcore in their beliefs and wouldn’t appreciate the implication that they “rate†lower than anyone else.
Those women include myself. Also, they are keenly aware that they “rate” lower and have discussed that fact ad nauseum. We don’t think we’re less attractive than anyone else but that our beauty is underrated and unacknowledged.
They include biracial with black. That’s something to think about.
Yes, that’s something I considered already. And it was mentioned in the post about the OK Cupid study.
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None of the other female readers here take issue with that statement in the comments?
Responding to some comments is completely pointless and a waste of time.
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Alex@
“Race matters. Every scientific study shows it does, still, maybe now more than ever. Most people want to mate with people of a similar or identical ethnic background. Thinking we can go through thousands of years of evolution and suddenly go liberal just ain’t realistic.
Status matters. Evolutionary pressure means the dating market adjusts to how we behave, what we work with, how we dress etc. Brutal but true. Some call it HBD here, I call it evolutionary reality.”
Yep.
I agree – race and status matter, and I do not think anyone here denies this. They are not the only factors that matter. The point isn’t for everyone to “suddenly go liberal”. There have always been a few individuals who either preferred, or at least engaged in, mating outside of their ethnic group or racial group. They are not the majority, but intermarriage between tribes, nations, ethnic groups, and races has always taken place in history. Often along boundaries between peoples, or in unusually cosmopolitan empires and civilizations.
What you describe is the norm of human history, and I do not think anyone denies this. However race and ethnic mixing has always taken place. The diversity of white Europe for example, centuries ago there were far more clear distinctions between the separate stocks that made up Europe’s population, between Nordic, alpine, and Mediterranean types, as well as other strata that are mostly absorbed.
Even the Basques over the centuries have interbred and intermarried with Celtic and Germanic peoples in Iberia. Then you have the mixing of north African stocks in southern Europe. England and Ireland alone are testimonies to this. In Ireland you have clear mythic, and historical, accounts of migrations and intermarriage between different peoples. In Scotland too with the interbreeding of Celtic peoples with the older Pictish peoples. Eventually this created a more homogenous racial population that ethnically and culturally identified as scotts – even if there were individuals whose blood was more this or that.
What many people think of as a mostly homogenous white population in England is actually the result of intermarriage between disparate, and sometimes feuding populations with intense past hatreds. Of Briton to Roman, Romano-Briton towards Saxon Frisian and Angle, Anglo-Saxon towards their reaving Danish and Norwegian Viking cousins, and the lot of them towards their Norman cousins. All possessed great degrees of hate and antipathy, in many cases conquerors harrowed and forcibly subjected the native population into slavery and servitude, but generations later a new mix emerged with a new national identity.
In all of these cases, the people intermarried and interbred with each other, the English collectively, in skull shape, skin hue, or hair color, do not quite look like stereotypical Nordic Swedes. In Germany you also have a real degree of racial and ethnic mix that produced a somewhat homogenous population. Prussia was a Baltic land centuries ago. And what is now Germany was a complicated patchwork of many people, some more related, others more distantly so.
It would be a mistake for modern readers to fail to reflect on the degree to which separate peoples, self-aware of their separate identities, saw other tribes and nations as barbarians. Often with far greater antipathy than modern Whites and Blacks in America, or Whites and Asians (e.g. Indo-Pak) in the UK.
And still, they bred with each other like rabbits. Sometimes delightfully so, and sometimes with grudges. Still, they bred. And married. And mated. Sometimes at the margins of society, but sometimes higher up.
Mine is an imperfect example of course, fault can be found with it, hell it can be flamed 6 ways from Friday by anyone with enough time on their hands (but why bother) But it’s a sloppy illustration of a general point. Status may matter in some instances more than race, in other instances race may matter more than status, and in fewer instances neither may matter.
In particular with a man of higher status and a woman of lower status. This would be the case with courtisans, slave girls, second wives (which occurred in pagan and even early Christian Barbarian Europe) or covert trysts, love affairs, and the like.
Ditto for Asia and Africa.
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And what is now Germany was a complicated patchwork of many people, some more related, others more distantly so.
You see this strong sense of ethnicity (and related prejudice) in Germany. Most Bavarians I know feel more kinship with the Austrians that with Prussians. Similar language, customs, religion, foods, etc. I am Swabian and that’s cool to my husband but if I’d been from Dusseldorf that might have been a deal-breaker.
And the East Germans are a whole ‘nother story. Does ANYBODY like Ossies? I know older West Germans who won’t even rent to them or speak to them at a party. They just whisper, “He’s from Saxony.” And then giggle and do cheesy imitations of the Saxon dialect. I call them out on it but they just look at me like, “Is she off her rocker?” At some point someone more “enlightened” will chime in to my defense with, “I work with a Saxon. He’s okay. Kind of weird, but we get along. They’re not all bad.” Wow. Big-time praise.
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