I certainly hoped The Spearhead would make some waves, but I didn’t expect them to come crashing to shore so soon. I guess that’s what’s uncanny about tsunamis — the seismic disruption catches people by surprise.
The day before yesterday we smashed our daily traffic record, and then yesterday we doubled that. Pro Male/Anti-Feminist Tech wrote a piece on sci-fi that I thought, at the time, was fairly mild and not all that shocking. Well, it turns out that he really hit a nerve, and we’ve received a deluge of attention. Seems he touched on a very sore spot in the sci-fi community, and the trolls have emerged from their burrows like a pestilent horde.
All in all it’s been a fun (if somewhat exhausting) ride, and along the way we’ve been provided with a window into the dark soul of reactionary feminism. One female blogger writes about “rage blackouts that threatened to destroy my ability to retain what my eyes were seeing” (got Midol?). However, the positives definitely outweigh the negatives here, because some very rich and hilarious material has emerged from the internet buzz surrounding our humble author.
To start with, I never in my wildest dreams imagined that The Spearhead would be denounced by Commander Data, but superlative actor Brent Spiner has written on his twitter page that we should be called “asshats” (roughly 11AM PST yesterday). In addition to the android, we have been excoriated by countless feminist sci-fi fans on Livejournal, Twitter and a constellation of sci-fi fanblogs.
PMAFT’s post is approaching 400 comments now, which puts it in the viral territory. I’ve got to hand it to the guy — he really hit this one out of the park. In fact, we even got written up in my local feminist gutter-mag The Stranger, which features Dan Savage, among other luminaries. Paul Constant, The Stranger blogger who wrote about our site is such a stellar example of a mangina that his denunciation should be a point of pride.
If there is anything that bothered me at all, however, it is this cowardly post by sci-fi writer John Scalzi, who takes his obviously valuable time to disparage our author’s points, yet refuses to even link to the piece, because “abject misogynist stupidity should not be rewarded with links.” What a cop-out. Who does Scalzi think he is, a commissar? What a fine example of American manhood we have here, who doesn’t even think people should be allowed to make up their own minds. This is the new, Feminist America, folks — smug, herb authors like Scalzi deciding what people should and should not see on the basis of their own bigoted opinions.
For now, we should all be happy to see The Spearhead making waves and starting a dialogue that has long been needed. Pro Male/Anti-Feminist Tech deserves applause for his breakthrough article, and for proving that our voice is going places.
So, dear readers, we will keep it coming, and, as always, we welcome your comments. This magazine is for you, after all.
{ 181 comments… read them below or add one }
Wow, that’s awesome. Talk about a publicity explosion…
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Surprised the fuck outta me,man. For the life of me I can’t see what got these mangina bitch-boys and their dyke owners so upset about that piece.
Broads,huh?
Also, fuck Data.
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It’s just so surreal that Spiner’s come out condemning this place. I remember watching TNG as a kid.
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Fuck Data.
Get Off Humans collective Dick you WANNABE!
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Welmer,
If you think that an influx of posts from asinine emptyheads who have arrived here simply to deride and sneer at Spearhead authors is good for Spearhead, you are wrong.
You will simply drive away MRAs and their supporters. And they will go back to areas of cyberspace wherein they can talk comfortably with each other without being subjected to the derision and hostility that typically emanates from immature women and their poodle boys.
Indeed, if I was the webmaster of Spearhead, I would remove all posts which contained derogatory misandric comments as soon as I could get to them.
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I guess hard science is the last indomitable male bastion that feminists can’t crack and it irks them to no end. At least they can avail themselves to psy-fi oops I mean sy-fi…….
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Harry, I think the Spearhead guys are coming more from the individualist new wave of the MGTOW/Game co-journeyers than from the old schools of Political Representation and Support Grouping.
I don’t think The Spearhead is intended to be a ‘Safe Space’. I suspect they’re fine with having women display their vicious, cruel, and abusive nature here because of how it serves as evidence in support of the propositions, recommendations, and goals of both groups.
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PMAFT, well done on the shake-up.
Feminists can’t take what they have been doling out for 40+ years ….
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“You will simply drive away MRAs and their supporters. And they will go back to areas of cyberspace wherein they can talk comfortably with each other without being subjected to the derision and hostility that typically emanates from immature women and their poodle boys.”
You’re underestimating us,man. It’s just the typical shaming language, they never come up with anything new, you know that. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
As long as they’re all parroting the same tired cliches we have them by the short and curlies, there isn’t an MRA alive who hasn’t seen every shaming tactic they possess.
“Indeed, if I was the webmaster of Spearhead, I would remove all posts which contained derogatory misandric comments as soon as I could get to them.”
And deprive young MRAs of seeing 150+ feminists whose most “fearsome” insult lies at the level of playground humor, i.e. “you have a small penis”?
I would think seeing that would embolden those men. It’s truly an “emperor has no clothes” moment the first time you see it. I mean this is really the best they can do.
Almost makes you feel bad for them…..
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Acksiom
1. I quote Welmer himself about Spearhead. “It is an outpost in our cultural wasteland, …”
2. I have seen ‘magazines’ like this before – supposedly concerned with men’s issues – turn into fairly useless nondescript portals which few people continue visiting.
They become glorified forums – the main difference being that only a few authors can post up New Threads on Spearhead.
3. I repeat: Spearhead will lose its current appeal if the men who come here continually have to face comments referring to their lack of testicles or whatever.
4. Most of us (including Welmer himself, I imagine) are no longer interested in what wimmin and their poodle boys have to say. We have heard it a thousand times before – from the mainstream.
5. A highly-successful magazine promoter (and I cannot remember his name) once said, “You have to divide people into US and THEM in order to make a magazine successful – with the magazine representing US.”
I think he was right.
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A lot of what you guys have to say is very interesting to me, so please take this as constructive criticism. If as a magazine you want to gain respect of people who might agree with you then you should try to set a standard for posts that are polished and have a more analytical attitude. That way when a post hits a nerve the main idea will be more likely to get through.
Objectivity is good too, while a show or movie may be too PC in certain regards, it might also be really good despite these flaws. If the negativity level is too high, then the articles will turn out to be “A bunch of guys just whining”, which would only confirm some people’s suspicions about the authors on this site.
Also: Name calling, even if it is deserved, is a substitute for thinking. “Herb” and “Mangina” are funny insults, and perhaps you think they are socially necessary, but it puts you on the same level as them and isolates you from a large group of potential readers. I would expect a male oriented blog to rely more on statistics than name calling to make their points.
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“I guess hard science is the last indomitable male bastion that feminists can’t crack and it irks them to no end”
They do pretty well in life sciences, chemistry and medicine which are all hard sciences. Its just physics and some engineering they are below parity.
I can’t remember Roissy in DC ever getting this level of nasty feedback even though he goes out of his way sometimes to be provocative.
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That’s because Roissy doesn’t link to the sci fi community. There is no real connection between Roissy and anything mainstream. People who find their way to Roissy from the mainstream are usually aghast, write a nasty post and then bugger off, because, by and large, Roissy isn’t writing about something that they are deeply invested in, and they can write off his rather large community more easily. Here, we have the sci fi geeks coming out of the woodwork because what was written was about *their* little baby. That’s why it has gotten the attention it has gotten. Not many of the commenters in that thread have spilled over into any of our other posts — probably because they don’t care to comment on them as they have nothing to do with sci fi.
Nevertheless I do think that the attention is good. No such thing as bad publicity, really, at least not for a blog that is only a few weeks old. And even leaving aside the sci fi thread, the rest of the blog is seeing great traffic, too. Zed’s post yesterday had a ton of comments, too, and not really from the sci fi crowd.
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Dave
“And deprive young MRAs of seeing 150+ feminists whose most “fearsome” insult lies at the level of playground humor, i.e. “you have a small penis”?”
I thought that Spearhead was going to be above this.
And what about new, potential authors, Dave? Authors who might not like to be accused of having small penises. Authors who might be put off even the joining the discourse as a result of all the sneering. Potential allies who come across Spearhead also being put off by it.
Why should we allow these revolting women to have ANY say at all on this site? Why should we allow them to shame our supporters or our potential supporters? Why should we help them to spread their nastiness in “OUR” area of cyberspace? In OUR heads?
What next, eh? Allowing them to write whole articles about how the authors round here have small penises?
I guarantee you that Spearhead will go down the tubes if these wimmin are allowed to poison the debate, and the ‘official’ authors will just creep back to their own blogs rather than put up with the hostility.
Seen it many times before.
Ask Zed.
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Roissy has been linked from Marginal Revolution and Jezebel and probably some others that I might of missed. Those are popular sites. I will agree that the scifi community seems like a different animal.
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1. I quote Welmer himself about Spearhead. “It is an outpost in our cultural wasteland, …”
And. . .? Do you actually have an explicit point here, and if so, what is it?
2. Almost half of the listed contributors have well-established track records as high-quality content providers. Between Ferdinand Bardamu, Novaseeker, Roissy, Welmer, and zed, I’m not at all worried about your 2nd point.
3. And I repeat: I suspect they’re fine with having women display their vicious, cruel, and abusive nature here because of how it serves as evidence in support of the propositions, recommendations, and goals of both groups.
4. And their comments provide Welmer et. al. with opportunities to demonstrate alpha indifference to their infantile behavior thereby providing MGTOW/Gameies models for younger and less self-actualized men and boys to observe, adopt, and integrate.
5. Print is dead, and, again, your standards of success may not be the same as those of the MGTOW/Game communities.
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“Why should we allow these revolting women to have ANY say at all on this site? Why should we allow them to shame our supporters or our potential supporters? Why should we help them to spread their nastiness in “OUR” area of cyberspace? In OUR heads?”
You’ve got a point there.It’s probably not a good idea to allow them free reign all the time,because they will attempt to derail legitimate conversations.
I’m kinda torn on this one. I love to smack these kinds of people around and it’s extremely easy, but you’re right that some people,especially authors who already have a lot on their plate, might not like having to corral a circus full of feminist clowns all the time.
I definitely understand your point.
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Acksiom
Well, you have my opinon.
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You’ve got a point there.It’s probably not a good idea to allow them free reign all the time,because they will attempt to derail legitimate conversations.
I think Dave is right on this one.
It is not the shaming or the insulting, countering that is actually easier than shooting fish in a barrel,
The hard thing is some of the talented ones will manage to derail the conversations, with the rational people over here tying to reason with a random dice of thoughts whose six sides change also randomly after each throw.
amybe letting a troll troll for three times, and then blocking him/her for the rest of the thread could be a good idea.
Newcomers will get to see the intentional senselessness and the ingrained idiocy, but the conversation will not spur off in order to rationalize with the irrational.
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z.g.
“It is not the shaming or the insulting, countering that is actually easier than shooting fish in a barrel,”
Indeed, but why should we have to waste our time doing this?
Isn’t there enough to do?
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Then isn’t there enough to do to not waste our time moderating them, either?
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Nice job guys. I’ve surfed feminist forums trying to get a handle how these chicks think, but it’s impossible with how quickly they ban people who disagree with them with them, even slightly. It’s just one big echo chamber. I was glad to see their stupidity and shamming out in the open for once.
Admittedly shamming tactics are not an easy thing to deal with but we do need to learn how to do with in the long run. Major kudos to PMAFT.
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Acksiom
“Then isn’t there enough to do to not waste our time moderating them, either?”
Indeed, so kill off their presence now, before they start to multiply and moderation becomes a real chore.
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Hello. First post, lurking wor a while.
First, some things that I need to say:
I’m tired. I’m tired of being on the part of the Internet with pissed-off guys. I’m tired of watching otherwise decent, likeable and good men being less wanted than a cat. I’m tired of watching divorce after divorce in my family.
Since I stumbled in this blog a couple of weeks ago, I found a piece of truth that I didn’t know that existed, I found certainty in stuff that my gut sense told me about women (mostly why it told me to avoid certain ones), and I found what is the fuel of the Internet Hate Machine.
Ok, that aside, given that raising awareness about the kind of world that we live is a goal in here, I don’t see why the detractors should be rush under the carpet. Granted, I don’t want to focus on them, but seriously, they are now enemies and we can’t be ignorant about their movements.
Besides, apart of spammers and hardly coherent profanity slurs, banning people of a thread isn’t neccesary, simply because this isn’t a forum or a image board(4chan), when beaten to the ground and useless subjects can be raised over and over again.
And really, not linking the point of view that you are tearing apart is either cowardly or it shows an ignorance about using the Internet. Obviously the former, but is fair pointing the posibilities.
About Si-fi in general, didn’t pay too much attention to it, but I don’t watch TV since when I saw Saturday Morning Cartoons because I don’t care about the relationship drama of a poorly, over-acted character and I watch news on the Internet. Oh, and reality shows really rot your brain.
Hope that my rant didn’t was too long.
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I like the ladies commenting. It just reinforces what I already know about them. It’s hilarious watching them hang themselves.
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One way to deal with shaming language is to call it out, to tag it. As we already have a color coding system, why not use it? Redact comments using these tactics to color the text. Assuming WP allows it. Testing.
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The shaming tactics can be offputting if you do not recognize them as tired cliches. Perhaps redact comments to classify the tactics using ‘The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’. Either replace the text with the tactic description (e.g. Charge of Cowardice) and a link to the catalogue, or color the text. Assuming WP allows that.
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I hope the admin here think a bit about what Harry is saying. I am going to offer my two cents worth as well.
This site is well put together with sterling writers. The question is whether the owners want an on-line publication or a forum for rants. I don’t honestly think you can have both under the same roof.
It forces the choice of whether to be a showcase of literature in the MRM or a troll magnet that will invariably deteriorate discussions into schoolyard brawls that will turn off most thinking men and women.
I moderate most of the comments on MND. And while I would not disrespect anyone here by suggesting they should do things my way, I want to say that nothing makes me hit delete quicker than feminist or misnadric shaming. And I have deleted a few comments from MRA’s that I thought were too over the top and lent us to easy ridicule.
Just yesterday, in fact, after a heated exchange between a writer and a reader that got out of control, I closed comments on the piece and wrote into the submission guidelines that personal attacks on writers would not be tolerated.
In my opinion, at the end of the day, any on-line publication will grow new readers or go with the wind. And nothing will kick up that wind faster, in my opinion, than not seeing the difference between and on-line publication and a free-for-all discussion forum.
That being said, those are my complete thoughts on the matter and I choose not to disrespect this place by debating them. I’d rather go read some more of the great material here.
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Welmer, I volunteer to help moderate comments. If you don’t have access to commenter’s email addresses, I can use this site’s contact form to get you mine.
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The original post had a legitimate main point, but had weak evidence and was poorly argued. If it had any impact at all, it probably just reinforced the image of MRAs as lower status.
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If attracting the ire
of sci-fi types
is the measure of success
I declare bankruptcy
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I have a suggestion for a new name for the abusive behavior displayed on PM/A-FT’s thread and elsewhere — such as Scalzi’s site.
I think we should refer to it as masturhation.
For example, “Feminists are prone to masturhating to their fantasies about men, much as leftists like to masturhate to their fantasies about their political opponents. They will frequently masturhate publicly online in blog entries, and even engage in mutual masturhation.
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Perhaps more amusingly, a hall of shame for idiot comments (possibly from both sides), so that we can forever preserve them and then mark them up to demonstrate the commonly used shaming and rhetorical tactics.
Consider it our own little armory. I do think there is value in preserving such, but perhaps a little public shaming for those who posted them is in order as well.
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I will agree that the scifi community seems like a different animal.
I agree. As Welmer said, this seems to have hit a real sore spot.
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Thursday: “The original post had a legitimate main point, but had weak evidence and was poorly argued.”
The issue deserves fuller treatment, and there’s no harm in treading over the same ground. More SF articles, please.
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This blog is for men only and no woman should ever be allowed to post here.
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Here’s their solution to the Mancession. Think about exactly what’s being done to men here.
A Historic Success In Military Recruiting
In Midst of Downturn, All Targets Are Met
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/13/AR2009101303539.html
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Roissy has been linked from Marginal Revolution and Jezebel and probably some others that I might of missed.
One of the things about writers like Tyler Cowen and Will Wilkinson who have waded into the Roissysphere is that smug, conventional and PC as they are, they like new ideas and aren’t really haters.
I’ve found the same in a lot of elite institutions, like law schools. You can have the most “retrograde” opinions, but if your part of the club, mind your manners and you bring the mental stimulation, you won’t be a social pariah. Even most left liberals find PC stultifying at times.
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I don’t know if Brent Spiner is married or not, but it would be a shame if what happened to Subway weight-loss guy Jared Fogle happened to him:
http://gossip.celebritycowboy.com/jared-the-subway-guy-fogles-ex-wife-takes-him-to-the-cleaners/
Jared “The Subway Guy” Fogle’s Ex-Wife Takes Him to the Cleaners
February 5th, 2008
Looks like Jared “The Subway Guy” Fogle better start pimping some more subs. His wife is getting more than 60% of his assets. …
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Why is that so many women take general observations and broad brush arguments personally? Is it narcissism? Do they really think that every argument is about them?
I love arguments and discussions and feel no need to get offended at everyone who disagrees with me. It seems that most women are incapable of dispassionate, reasoned discourse.
The women at that thread were appalling in their complete inability to separate out the idea that most women don’t like traditional science fiction from the fact they they personally do like it. Ladies, it’s not all about you. You are not the personal measure of all that goes on in the world. Get over yourself.
As an aside, I think it would be really funny for some chick to reply saying that they personally weren’t anything like the generalization I sketched above. How ironic would that be?
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Great comment, Carl.
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“rage blackouts that threatened to destroy my ability to retain what my eyes were seeing”
Ha, ha, ha, ha….that is so funny….wimmin are ssssooooooo equal, right? They are sssssooooooo responsible for themselves, right? That statement right there tells you everything a man needs to know about a western woman:
I am victim.
I am stupid.
I am not responsible for myself.
Someone else must do something to help poor widdle old me.
LOL!! This is how pathetic western women are now….we should laugh at them, use scathing sarcasm and wit and destroy their every word with crushing irony. We should NEVER use logic or reason because they don’t have any…..or, the other option is to ignore them….but you know..comments like this are so funny that it’s better than having a TV for sure!!
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Guys,
listen to Harry, he is a very wise man. Sites that allow women and manginas to post drive the good men away because we can’t stand the crap they go on with and repeat 1000 times a day. Not even the best of us.
The best example of this is the men are better than women forums. http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/forums. They used to be very active and have a lot of great content. They are completely f***ed up now and 30 or so of the real men from there have pretty much quit and set up our own forum to discuss issues sans women. If you look at that forum there are two wimmin that have posted 3000+ posts of rubbish. There is no limit to the attention whoredom of wimmin. And one of them is a single mother bu choice femnazi who is masquerading as a ‘friend to men’. The young men always fall into the same trap of trying to argue with them and they destroy the publication in the process.
If you want to let the young guys see what crap women go on with then send them to feministing. If you want spearhead to be successful delete all the crap that women and manginas go on with and and keep a strict editorial policy that descending into any sort of ‘discussion’ with the wimmin and manginas is not on. Keep an editorial policy that men discuss mens issues. Then men will stay. The numer of comments will be 10x less and the quality of comments will be 100x more. On our private mens site there are days when no-one says anything…and that’s just fine. We are not wimmin….we don’t need to hear ourselves speak to remind ourselves that we exist!
I recommend shaming language only for the lacking in intellect children common known by the collective name of ‘western women’. We do not even allow ‘good women’ on our site, and I mean women who have proven themselves ‘friends of men’ over many years. Even they are not welcome.
And all those shit for brains testicless arseholes who belong in the gutter with a bullet to the head manginas should also be banned…but only because of the unfortunate situation that by quirk of law we cannot shoot them.
If I were king being a mangina would be a capital offence….nutless wimmin pandering wonders!!! I know how disgraceful those men are because I used to be one….damn…;-)
They will cry…boo hoo…censorship!! Yeah? Well try and get a fact in edgewise on feministing.
Women professors have said “We will not allow any course that claims feminism limits freedom of speech.”
Everywhere I go I suggest to men, please, give men a place to talk without women/manginas present. Women mess up everything they get involved in. Now gents, do as you wish.
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Girm October 14, 2009 at 7:05 am
“Admittedly shamming tactics are not an easy thing to deal with”
Girm, then allow me to educate you.
Femnazi: “GM, you are a woman-hater, misogynist, sexist bastard and you have a small penis!”
GM:
“Ha, ha, ha femnazi. You are so funny you really make me laugh.
1. I won’t touch you western women because you are horrible. My easten lady friends are lovely. They treat me like a king and give me exactly what I want. I am getting 10x the amount of sex and lovemaking I used to get when I was married. And my ex is fat and old. Now I date chicks 10-15 years younger than me, hot, tight little bodies who really know how to pleeeeeeaaaaasssssseeeeee a man. I will never have sex with a western woman again. Indeed, I don’t even talk to them.
2. You are the brainwashed ‘useful idiot’ of the Illuminati who are using women to attack men in the planned destruction of our society. Well done.
3. Lastly, but not leastly, good science and the entire history of civilisation tell me that you have the intelligence level of a 7 to 10 year old boy. Therefore you are unable to conduct an argument. You have almost no capacity for reason and logic so there really is no point in talking to you. Feminised women are a small minority of women on this planet and they are entirely surplus to needs. You, femnazi, are breeding yourselves out of existence. Good day to you.”
Femnazi: “Wah, wah, wah, I am all upset. Globmal called me stupid…he’s an arsehole, he has a small penis, please, mr man, come and beat the crap out of this horrible nasty man who so upset me…see I have tears in my eyes, I am crying, he hurt my feewings…..he must be punished because the big bad man hurt the poor sweet little girwy…please mr chivalrous man…please defend my honour…you know I am right…you know I am honourable…and if you help me out I might just give you a blow job…or maybe even some sex….”
That’s how pathetic western women are now. And by the way…you won’t hear any of this crap from eastern chicks.
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Internet in general is usually more entretaining than a TV. Damn, the one I got hasn’t been on in years.
And many people don’t understand that they are exeption to the rule, or even worst, they believe that they are an exeption to the rule until the truth punch them in the face. Case in point: Every divorce that I’ve seen.
@Thursday
“One of the things about writers like Tyler Cowen and Will Wilkinson who have waded into the Roissysphere is that smug, conventional and PC as they are, they like new ideas and aren’t really haters.”
Both guys finded out that the Game concept does get them laid (or at least makes them more attractive to women), but they can’t suddenly switch sides because their public would tear them a new one.
“I’ve found the same in a lot of elite institutions, like law schools. You can have the most “retrograde” opinions, but if your part of the club, mind your manners and you bring the mental stimulation, you won’t be a social pariah. Even most left liberals find PC stultifying at times.”
Elite institutions in private can discuss with honesty, but I bet you that those guys are going to be all liberalism once they get out and discover the kind of people that impulse the money-train that they are going to have to lead on their own. Or at least, they will lie about it.
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One option is to shut-down that one sci-fi thread and archive the article for cold-storage. At best it will make great material to update the catalog of Shaming Tactics for 2010.
After all the MGTOW movement wasn’t created the discuss the finer points of the Sci-Fi genre. I personally don’t care much about that. My beef is with Misandrist family-laws (including things like VAWA) and the war against those who block/stifle reform.
Flame wars with high-strung techie chicks and their white-knight lapdogs doesn’t factor very high on my MRA list.
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“PMAFT’s post is approaching 400 comments now, which puts it in the viral territory.”
Compare your 400 comments to the millions received on truly viral pages; it’s laughable.
Besides that, the choice to label the various dissenting comments and rebuttal posts made in reference to yesterday’s Sci-Fi article “trolls” wholesale, instead of actually taking the time to respond to their arguments, is a poor one. Talk about shaming language.
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Ok, Harry, since you asked. You and I have disagreed before, as I have with Paul Elam, and will certainly do so again. Neither of us have been forced to kill the other yet, so I assume we can get past this one without that unpleasant necessity.
I wrote out a very long reply to this while I was stuck in a meeting this morning, but it was way too full of rhetoric. I’ll see if I can condense it down to a few salient points.
First, I don’t believe that dealing with this is a “waste of time”. See my post of yesterday. In fact, I believe that running away from this sort of thing is the largest single factor in men losing as much ground as they have and leaving younger men a world that looks pretty bleak to them.
I’ve always been one of the most radical MRAs out there – way “out there.”
I’ve jokingly called myself the “Colonel Kurtz of the Gender War.”
What’s happening right now, in that set of comments to that post, IS the “gender war”, and men are going to keep losing as long as they keep running away from it.
If Welmer had intended the Spearhead to be a nice comfy place where MRAs could go to be “safe” from all those mean girls calling them names, he would have probably called it something like “The Nest.”
A Spearhead has a sharp point. It’s entire purpose for existing is to make some people go “ouch.”
I think the road is forking, with traditional MRAs taking the fork that continues down their ineffective path to oblivion and irrelevance. Younger men are saying “Well, if your approach is so great, how come the world you have left us is so screwed up?” I think they have a point.
Apparently younger men are made of tougher stuff than older MRAs. As Dave, Aksiom, and globalman have pointed out – the femnasties and the manginas have spent their entire arsenal and not drawn enough blood to require a bandaid. The Emperor has no clothes, the paper tiger has no teeth other than what we give it.
Jack wrote recently about the threat or potential for violence being a part of masculinity. The bottom line is “respect me or I will hurt you.” Machiavelli served it straight up without garnish when the Prince asked “Is it better to be loved, or feared.” The reply was “It is better to be loved and feared, but if you can only have one, it is better to be feared.”
Men have so far been afraid of women’s verbal/emotional/social violence. Few things have come closer to impelling me to real physical violence than to hear some herb say “Well, we don’t want them to call us ‘misogynists’ for pity’s sake!” I want to grab them by the lapels, get in their face, and scream at them “They ALREADY ARE calling you ‘misogynists’, have been for years, and are going to keep doing it no matter what you do!!!!!”
As long as the femnasties and the manginas can simply say “Misogynist! Booga, booga, booga, BOO!” and send MRAs scurrying for cover, tails tucked between their legs, we really are wasting our time.
But, there is no reason men can’t beat them at their own game. There is nothing stopping men from studying women’s ways of verbal/emotional/socia violence and getting better at it than women are – “honing our Rhetoric of Ridicule.”
Violence is simply that which violates, and few things are more satisfying than taking an enemies weapon away from her and using it against her.
“if I was the webmaster of Spearhead…”
But, you’re not. Welmer is. You are webmaster of AngryHarry.com and Paul is Sr. Editor of MND. You guys have your sites, Paul E has his contributors, Welmer has his. If your approach is the only one which works, then no one needs the Spearhead. If social conditions are a testament to the effectiveness of that approach, I would say there is room for something different. MND certainly left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of men who were ready to put some “Active” in “activism” when Mike nuked all his own forums to silence a few rowdies making some non-PC noise.
I said that Game is a spontaneous rediscovery by younger men of principles of masculinity which have been beaten down by the femnasties over the past few decades. The traditional MRA approach is definitely a beta approach – showing up hat-in-hand and balls-in-purse pleading “please respect us, please.” Begging for respect works no better than begging for pussy – that’s not the way you get it.
If the Spearhead approach fails, then it fails. It won’t be the first MRA effort to fail, and your site and Paul E’s will still be out there, so nothing will be lost. But, if it starts to succeed with younger men where the traditional MRA approach has failed, maybe it will be a wakeup call to us old farts that maybe we really can learn something from the young Turks.
Dave from Hawaii (HL) points out that in today’s world, Game is necessary even in a marriage. Game will apparently get some guys laid that the “reasonable, rational, and respectful” approach gets them the chance to see a lot of female nose hair.
“Molon Labe.”
I am staking my bets on the guys who are responding to people who say “You can’t/shouldn’t be doing/saying that!!!” with –
“So, come stop us.”
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Learn to smack them down here. Proceed to administer the smacking in the real world.
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I say let the Feminist and manginas run free in the comments sections. I love debating them. Its almost become a sport in and of itself to me, like verbal Ju-Jitsu. I’m not saying I’m a black belt at it yet, but with practice comes perfection, and the arguing skills developed, in strategy, tactics, and content, will be invaluable one day as we bring our fight more into the realm of mainstream discourse.
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Basically: We are here. We aren’t going to backdown. We aren’t manginas and/or cowards. Besides, what they are going to do, keep bitching? Hahaha. That doesn’t hurt. That doesn’t stop Internet movements dedicated only to destroy, that cannot stop us.
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You know, all this handwringing by mainly Harry, is a tempest in a teapot. Really.
I say to the “loyal opposition” BRING IT ON, and hope and pray that Welmer doesn’t do a darned thing to change the way things are going. I personally get sick to my stomach with this notion that we have to have some kind of thought police; the very nature of discourse in a free democracy is bound to be raucous. Let a thousand flowers bloom and all that.
Plus, as has already been noted, we can make a clear case of just how much BETTER we are than the Femosphere is; here, Feminists and their supporters are free to speak their minds, unlike sites like Feministing and Feministe and Jezebel, where the thought police and delete button reigns supreme.
And for guys like me who thoroughly enjoy giving the loyal opposition a rhetorical beatdown, I love the chance to directly engage them in debate, mano o mano. I’ve long said that Feminists are simply incapable of straight up debate, and I for one am only too willing to prove it.
I’ve been reading the Spearhead since its launch and have good feelings about it – and I wanna join the team. If y’all think what Pro Male said was bad…wait’ll they get a load of me…
The Obsidian
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i already know
how to pick up
white women
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With a forklift?
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Jabherwochie October 14, 2009 at 10:35 am
“I say let the Feminist and manginas run free in the comments sections. I love debating them.”
Then do it somewhere else that is already ruined like the men are better than women forums. Better still, do it at feministing….see how you go…
Guys,
women are not equals. Men are better than women. When will I call women equal? When women are:
1. 51% of war dead.
2. 51% of workplace dead.
3. 51% of the incarcerated.
4. 51% of the homeless.
Further, when it is perfectly socially acceptable to smack a woman in the mouth for a series of smart arse comments exactly the same as it is for a man…When women FEAR me when I tell them “STFU or I WILL smack you in the mouth” THEN they will be my equal. And not a second before.
Every man who knows me knows I haven’t smacked anyone in the mouth off the football field since I was a kid. But since I am 187cm and 100KGs and used to get into plenty of fights on the football field, every man who knows me knows I am PERFECTLY WILLING to use violence against someone who is being a complete arsehole. That’s how men keep the men who are arseholes in line. By the threat of violence and the willingness to use it.
When women accept that they can be hit and severely injured by a man when they are arseholes, and they are 51% of the groups above, throw a party, GM will call women equal.
Until then? Women are children. That’s why they behave like children. They are the weaker sex. They can never be happy in and of themselves. Just like children they need to be told what they can have and be told to be happy with it. I have raised 4 children and was with one woman 23 years. I know what I am talking about.
The question of allowing women a place to argue is exactly the same as the question would you let a bunch of 7-10 year old boys come here and argue? The answer is ‘obviously not’. Little boys are told what to do and told to be happy and taught to be respectful and polite. We don’t engage children in argument because they are not capable of it. Ditto women.
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I could shut the comments down on that thread, but then the trolls might start interrupting other threads.
To be honest with you guys, this will peter out soon. It will be yesterday’s news. However, the lingering effect will be an argument in the scifi community.
Think about it this way:
Most guys who are into scifi are the ultimate betas. This is why none has dared to challenge the direction the genre has taken — they are truly afraid of the women, who showed that they are quite capable of derision and offensive behavior in the comments. AFPMT’s post is probably the first time any of these women have read an expression of what’s been obvious beneath the surface for some twenty years. Hence the overreaction.
Personally, I am kind of amused that there has been such outrage over one little post. Scalzi and The Stranger are obviously catering to their feminist base with their denunciations, and Brent Spiner probably never actually read the article, but just mindlessly replied to a tweet from a female fan. Let these guys have their girl fanbase — it’s a way to make a living, but it also pretty much guarantees eventual oblivion when the next trend comes along. There will always be Phil Donahues and Dr. Phils, but they’re just hucksters (pimps, I’d say) when it comes down to it.
The reaction of hysteria was just a giant fit thrown by scifi women (I trust you saw the quote about “rage blackouts”), and we saw a fair amount of white knighting as well (although not all that much). We actually handled the comments alright. Could have done better, but this was a first.
I have no idea whether this will happen again, but it might. If or when it does, the thing to do is to just let the controversy run its course. The trolls aren’t going to change any of our minds, and we probably won’t change theirs, but there are a lot of guys out there who will say to themselves “this is what I was thinking, but I never dared say it.” When feminists throw a huge fit, they’re only attracting attention to an issue, and our little mag is supposed to be drawing attention to these issues. At the end of the day, we’ll have more subscribers and more readers who agree. Just getting the message out there is crucial; very few people are doing it.
If there’s anything I’d change, I’d do some more copyediting. That’s it. But we’re not getting paid to do this, and I see copy mistakes in newspapers all the time. AFPMT’s content was pretty reasonable and fair criticism. The sci-fi hissy fit says more about feminists than it does about The Spearhead — if it does say anything about our mag, it says we’re on the right track.
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All forklifts being equal,
I’ll admit to the inequality
of my lifting 200 on mine
while a brotha can lift only 4
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Carl October 14, 2009 at 8:27 am
“Why is that so many women take general observations and broad brush arguments personally?”
Because they have the intellectual capacity of a boy 7-10. One of the issues is this. Boys 7-10 have great imaginations. When they play they are not ‘pretending’ to be a cowboy or pilot or whatever it is they are acting out. The world actually occurs to a boy like they really ARE the cowboy or pilot or whatever. Check it out, recall what it was like when you were little and playing. You were so ‘into’ it that you actually believed you were that person until your mum called ‘Carl, time for dinner’.
Women, because they have the same brain capacity, live in this fantasy world where they ARE the characters they are imagining. Why do you think shows like Sex in the City are so successful? Women don’t ‘pretend’ to be one of those women. For women, they actually ARE those women from SitC. Women simply do not have the mental capacity to know the difference between the fantasy world in their head and the real world occurring around them. I was really sad when I realised this.
That ‘stunned mullet’ look on the face of women when you present them facts and argument is the cognitive dissonance of the real world intruding just a little on their fantasy world. This is soon put right by re-establishing the fantasty world. Even the most intelligent women are like this. There really is no hope to actually ‘reach’ women by ‘argument’ or anything else but massive, massive amounts of repetition. Basically, feminists are ‘baked’ and there is no hope for them ever to ‘change’.
One of the reasons for so much crap on the TV, movies, news etc that is 99% aimed at women now (like sci-fi) is that the bad guys are programming women to go further and further into this ‘fantasy’ world that they have created for them. They are actually programming women to detach further from reality. Once you know how all this stuff works it is blatantly obvious this is what is happening. I mean. They can’t hide it. They have to pump the fantasies into womens heads via the MSM.
Intelligent men look at all this stuff and dismiss it as total garbage. Men make the mistake in thinking it is harmless. Men make the mistake that women can actually see that this stuff is crap. It is anything but. The entire MSM is brilliantly designed and contrived ‘programming’. In fact, I am quite in awe of the men who are programming our women to hate us. They know exactly how to put ideas and beliefs into peoples heads without them knowing about it and they are doing it 24×7 from the time we are born. It really is brilliant. Just not very good for us.
Why do you think THEY call them ‘TV Programs’? Who do you think they are telling you THEY are PROGRAMMING?
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Haiku is mostly
trying to look cool by
sounding like Kirk
White women
are already sluts so
you don’t impress me
The Femosphere
talks way too much but
it cannot hurt us
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scramby October 14, 2009 at 8:07 am
“Here’s their solution to the Mancession. Think about exactly what’s being done to men here.”
Yes…they are impoverishing young men so they turn to the army where they will be shipped overseas and killed or injured. Leaderships that want to plunge the country into total oppression need to get the young men who would oppose them out of the way. And Iraq is pretty ‘out of the way’.
The Illuiminati plan is to get the population down to 500M. They have announced it. To do that they are going to have to kill a lot of women and children…to do that…they have to have the men who will defend them out of the way. Why do you think they had to abuse 100M+ men through divorce to separate them from their children whom most men will defend to the death?
Personally, I have no problem with them killing the feminised women and girls…but I do take issue to killing small boys by way of removing the men who might have protected them.
This is the real agenda guys…..
..The UNs priority #1 is population reduction. What do you think the ‘right’ to kill an unborn baby was all about? You think that was an ‘accident’? The UN has even published that it believes there are 2B less people around today because of abortion. Anyone who researches this stuff comes to realise the UN is the mechanism of supranational guvment and depopulatiion is the #1 priority because THEY say too many of the sheeple are taking up too much of THEIR resources…..
And when I see how stupid so many people are now? I am starting to see they have a point.
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I’m The Slime – Frank Zappa, Over-Nite Sensation, 1973
I am gross and perverted
Im obsessed n deranged
I have existed for years
But very little had changed
I am the tool of the government
And industry too
For I am destined to rule
And regulate you
I may be vile and pernicious
But you can’t look away
I make you think Im delicious
With the stuff that I say
I am the best you can get
Have you guessed me yet?
I am the slime oozin out
From your tv set
You will obey me while I lead you
And eat the garbage that I feed you
Until the day that we don’t need you
Don’t got for help…no one will heed you
Your mind is totally controlled
It has been stuffed into my mold
And you will do as you are told
Until the rights to you are sold
That’s right, folks..
Don’t touch that dial
Well, I am the slime from your video
Oozin along on your livinroom floor
I am the slime from your video
Cant stop the slime, people, lookit me go
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Novaseeker:
Um, yes.
From what I’ve observed, the online sci-fi community is huge, but nevertheless acts as a very tightly and densely knit social network, in that everyone feels an obsessive urge to write unsolicited and opinionated comments on every controversy that pops up. Moreover, many of these people, being what they are, have the tendency to get passionately fired up about even the most trivial angels-on-a-pin issues, if only they touch on their nerdy interests — let alone when it’s something with a whiff of true political controversy. I don’t have any interest in sci-fi myself, but I’ve noticed this because there is some small audience overlap between the websites and blogs that I often visit and the online sci-fi world.
So, yes, what that post did was to slightly disturb the perfect geometrical rows of toys in a kindergarten full of Aspergery kids, thus provoking a collective noisy tantrum. I wish this website every success, but things should be judged realistically.
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@Globalman:
It doesn’t get much clearer than that.
While being dragged ever so slowly through the Garden Of Pain, I was ordered to attend 52 weeks of Anger Management counseling (on my dime, of course). I got 57 weeks because I have a head like a brick. But I digress.
I did learn one critical lesson out of those classes that made the entire course worthwhile:
“When you minimize the conTACT, you minimize the conFLICT.”
I swear it was like an epiphany.
Ever since, I’ve done whatever I can to avoid 1WF (1st World Females) like the plague. And as I’ve mentioned before, I tell guys the truth: that I have not seen, spoken to nor interacted with a single one of them since expatriating here to Colombia and my life is all that much more uncomplicated and enjoyable because of it.
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Men,
pass far and wide!!!
http://www.henrymakow.com/why_young_men_are_avoiding_mar.html
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“Women, because they have the same brain capacity, live in this fantasy world where they ARE the characters they are imagining. Why do you think shows like Sex in the City are so successful?”
have you been to a sports event lately, broham?
just sayin’.
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@Globalman
The funny part of this is that there is enough resources in the world and in the US for sustain their population, I mean, if territory is distribuited equally and is not everybody concentrating in the same places.
And I don’t believe in a huge world conspiracy, because there would be a core, a certain group of leaders that move everybody else. I just see a bunch of selfish, corrupt beings going in the same direction for profit, but there’s only self-service, not loyalty to a powerful group of leaders.
And the US goverment has been craptastic in measures to substitute oil because it mostly uses it for explaining the huge bribes, there’s the recent movement to the corn and investments going to the big corn industries or the movement in money in the Carter administration for the residues in the oil refining process (synfuels). The last of those credits was payed in 2007, for god’s sake.
As seen here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4237539.html?page=2
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I note with great interest that the lady w/the WOW ex hubbie hasn’t actually addressed either Pro Male’s argument or mine. Yet she manages to go all personal which has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread.
Classical Feminist Debating 101.
Which, as we all know, doesn’t work.
The Obsidian
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Well, Feminists, gays and politics have been using videogames and their players as scapegoats for crucifixion for years since is a male-dominated industry that make stuff for other males.
And, most importantly, is what the young males do to kill time instead of watching TV, that doesn’t cater to them.
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I’m not really into science fiction, or any genre really, writing is either good or it’s not. I love Philip K. Dick, I find Heinlein mediocre, I can’t opine on any others.
The idea of a male-dominated social and cultural sphere is just wrong, for almost 200 years we have had a Victorian social world oriented around the concerns of women. Men have had a few treehouses in this world, science fiction being one of them. Now even that isn’t acceptable. I was going to watch the new BSG on DVD from Netflix because Jonah Goldberg always raves about it, but I gave up after the first episode. The female Starbuck is repulsive and the writers don’t have the dimmest understanding of military culture.
As far as the screaming about the Spearhead, that’s what the demon-possessed spawn does when you spray holy water on it. The more screaming the better, it means you are hurting them.
As far as “SyFy” goes if it sucks don’t watch it, and maybe these people will get the message. There will always be *some* entertainment that’s good and made for the viewer and not the ego of the producers.
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@John Nada,
Way to go John….I am thinking of relocating to eastern europe when I go into semi retirement…or maybe brazil. If I live that long. I don’t do anything a court ‘orders’. Now I have learned I can give them a bill when they ‘order’ something I don’t think I will see another ‘court order’…LOL!! 57 weeks of ‘anger management’ as they f*** you over through the courts. I am amazed how so many men cannot see the corruption in FC. Then again…I didn’t realise they were corrupt until I went into it.
Yep..I only deal with western chicks at the office. Or when I am paying them to provide a service like cooking or cleaning. I intensly dislike having to be all nice and smiley with them now at work. But I am a very good actor. You have to be in selling. Good luck down there in Columbia. I hear the chicks are hot!
zed October 14, 2009 at 11:11 am
“I’m The Slime … Frank Zappa, Over-Nite Sensation, 1973″
Yes, I have watched some interviews with Frank Zappa. He knew what was going on a long time ago. He makes clear references to the bad guys and what they were up to. Makes me wonder if he did die of natural causes.
They killed Lennon for talking about ‘the world is run by insane people for insane reasons and the real insanity is that they would lock me up for saying so’. No John, they will kill you for saying so. One more ‘crazy lone gunman shoots someone’ how convenient….right on the steps of the very same building that Roman Polanski shot ‘Rosmarys Baby’ on….oh..don’t worry..that’s just a co-incidence…….can anyone say MKULTRA?…I think I can hear Bill Hicks laughing from the grave.
How good are they are this? They made a movie called ‘Conspiracy Theory’ and Mel Gibson was the lead at the absolute pinnacle of his career. Julia Roberts was the woman in it. They made Mel a ‘crazy guy’ who believed in all these ‘conspiracy theories’.
What people don’t remember is that everthing the gibson character said in the movie proved to be true in the movie.
What people DO remember is ‘the guy who believed in the conspiracies was a nutter’.
It’s really well done if you know what they are doing and what to look for.
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Let me put it this way.
Firstly, Spearhead will remain popular if men (with our leanings) can turn up here, have a good read, and engage in some decent chat about the issues that concern them – if they wish.
Entertainment, friendliness, commonality and getting to know the writers and the commenters; i.e. a pleasurable experience.
If, however, turning up here involves facing the usual derision from those hostile to our views, then the place becomes far less attractive – especially for newcomers. And they will not come.
And we will also mostly lose the points being made by the authors themselves, because the threads that follow will be derailed.
Furthermore, you tend to get 5 or 6 MRAs wasting their time, and our time, taking on one stupid feminist simply in order to beat her back.
There are loads of sites where I have seen this happen – commonly on forums.
In addition, newcomers, who are most likely to be fairly reluctant to engage in hostilities, will simply go elsewhere, and, to them, this site will appear to be EXACTLY as described by our enemies. A bunch of aggressive whiners.
In essence, there are two possibilities.
1. The site remains warm, friendly, non-threatening and appealing – which, unfortunately, means that feminists will eventually turn up and start to derail the whole ethos.
2. The site becomes a battleground.
Given who we are, the second possibility is highly likely to occur – unless there is fairly tight control.
And, if this happens, then the authors and the readers with any brains will just go elsewhere.
And this idea that MRAs and authors round here are going to want to spend weeks, months, years going round and round in the same old circles just to show how easy it is to keep counter-attacking jibes about testicles, and so on, is just wrong-headed.
In my view, anybody who turns up here and suggests that we all have small penises, or are just a bunch of whiners, should be TOSSED OUT – even if they make these accusations in just one phrase of an entire post.
OUT!
Now, some of you might well have some interest in taking on these people – week after week, month after month.
But, in practice, this means letting them round you around on your own goddamn territory – while interfering with the development of a decent, friendly magazine which deals with issues that concern us.
This doesn’t sound like a great idea to me – especially since you can do this kind of stuff in forums – THEIR forums preferably.
@Zed
You have said on numerous occasions that arguing with feminists is a waste of time. So why endorse it round here?
I don’t have a problem with MRAs going at the feminists with guns blazing, but why allow them to bring this magazine down to the gutter level of debate?
For example, why do we have to put up with, …
“Awww, poor baby. Sorry to hear about your dick falling off because women are reading (and writing!) good science fiction. But that’s okay — there’s plenty of Perry Rhodan left out there for you.”
“This is a bunch of sexist, masochistic filth designed written and supported by people who are so insecure about their sexuality and identity.”
ETC ETC
And why should AntiTech and others who are writing for us have to waste their time dealing with such hatred? Writing an article takes enough work as it is without having to constantly defend yourself from people who are only here to disrupt us?
Anyway. I’ve said my bit.
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Harry October 14, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Guys…I’ll say it again…listen to Harry. He knows what he is talking about.
Julia October 14, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Women can be relied on to be stupid.
And Julia proves his point….
Gx1080 October 14, 2009 at 11:51 am
“And I don’t believe in a huge world conspiracy, because there would be a core, a certain group of leaders that move everybody else.”
So you have not read about:
The Bilderberg Group.
The Council on Foreign Relations.
The Tavistock Institute.
The Club of Rome.
The Fabian Society.
The Skull and Bones society.
or the United Nations?
Where do you live? You have an internet connection. How much research have you done to be able to confidently dis-believe that there is a collaborative self interested group of men shaping world events? If you don’t look you won’t see. But they have put their symbols all over the place. Once you can read their symbols you can see just how pervasive their influence is. They are everywhere. They really are.
Once you know how money really works it is obvious. And they can’t hide the money system so they just lie about it. There is no money. It’s one of their little secrets. All you have is worthless coloured paper. Did you ever wonder how it is that we can be ‘educated’ for 16 years and not be told how money works?
Did you not think it strange that both John Kerry and George Bush were members of the Skull and Bones? They both said so to Tim Russert live on air. Somehow they are the two ‘competitors’ for the presidency? Oh..that’s right …that’s just a co-incidence that two member of the same tiny secret society are competing for the ‘presidency’…no-one could have ‘organised’ that….Please Santa, I want a new bike for christmas….
Since I became aware of all this when tracking down who programmed my Ms. Perfect I met after my ex and I split it has never ceased to amaze me how men will deny, deny, deny without doing 5 minutes of actual reading. LOL!!
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Ha ha!
Right on cue with the textbook female response, Julia. “Small dick blah blah hate women blah blah hateful sarcasm blah blah.”
((if that was one of you guys sockpuppeting, you got me for a minute. Hilarious!))
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Point taken about the trolls, Harry. From now on they will be held to stricter standards.
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Aww… you moderated her.
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Yep, trolls will now go on spam list.
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I suppose that’s for the best. And here I was about to feed it.
Better angels of our nature, I suppose!
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I’d love to expose them, but Harry does have a point. Some people are a bit scared of participating when you have this much vitriol, and others respond immoderately. Any outright provocative/obscene posts will now be moderated. Fair criticism is fine.
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As a blogger who has been in the crosshairs of manginas and feminists before, I can’t believe we’re even debating this. To those who think we should censor dissenters – what’s wrong with you?
Should I remind everyone that feminist blogs like Feministing, Jezebel, and the like refuse to allow dissenting viewpoints to be aired? Go try it. Go try posting an MRA or non-feminist comment at any of those sites and see how long it takes before your posting privileges are revoked. The consequence of censorship is that the “discussions” that occur on those blogs consists of nothing but circle-jerking and high-fiving. Do you want The Spearhead to turn into that?
As for people worried that trolls will destroy the integrity of the comment sections – this almost never happens. One good example I can think of is Roissy’s epic post on George Sodini. His entry inspired an army of feminist trolls to descend upon the comment section screeching, whining, and hollering. But those trolls only stuck around to comment on that particular post – none of them became regulars. One or two may stick around, but that’s it, and even they will get bored after a while and leave. This also happened on my blog – my post on Sodini brought down a bunch of trolls, but they all eventually packed their bags and left. They gave me a few days of entertainment, after which things went back to normal.
And for those who think that contributors will be put off by trolls asserting they have small penises or something, let me just say this – if you can’t handle people attacking you on the Internet, you don’t belong commenting on the Internet. I’ve never lost sleep over some anonymous idiot calling me a nasty name – in fact, most of them crack me up. If your writing and ideas don’t upset people, they aren’t worth having.
I’m with Obsidian – bring on the haters. Only the cowardly fear fools.
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@Welmer
If you want any help with moderating, I’m willing to have a go.
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@Ferdinand
“Should I remind everyone that feminist blogs like Feministing, Jezebel, and the like refuse to allow dissenting viewpoints to be aired?”
Maybe that’s why they are so popular.
It is also one of the reasons why feminists got so much power.
They blocked dissent.
“The consequence of censorship is that the “discussions” that occur on those blogs consists of nothing but circle-jerking and high-fiving. Do you want The Spearhead to turn into that?”
No, I don’t. But the reason that their “blogs consist of nothing but circle-jerking and high-fiving,” is because they are talking rubbish and they have precious little of interest to say.
This won’t happen here – because people like you won’t let it happen.
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Don’t worry, Harry, this will die down soon. It’s really only the juvenile posts that need removing, and there are fewer of them than it seems (they tend to stand out).
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Ferdinand, I’m only going to stick to my commenting guidelines. That’s sufficient. Middle-school type comments will comprise 95% of what will be removed. One I removed was simply some 12yo repeating “micropenis” over and over, for example.
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Arguing with them for the purpose of convincing them of anything – yes, that is a waste of time. And, personally, I am so sick of the whole mess that I have neither commented nor even looked at the thread itself. That is also partially due to the gulf that exists between younger men and older men these days. I never even watched the first version of the show. I find less than half the articles here of any interest at all.
But, guys like me are not the target audience. You and I are the age of Welmer’s parents, and a couple of the authors are the age of my sister’s youngest grandson.
If I understand correctly what Welmer has said about the Spearhead, it is predominantly a magazine for young men with some MRA stuff mixed in, not an MRA mag with some stuff for young men mixed in. It’s pretty useless to criticize something for not being what it never set out to be in the first place.
If you remember the conflagration over on the Forbes forums over Noer’s article about not marrying a career woman, men more than held their own. Without the “chivalry police” standing ready to pull the plug on any man who dared “speak disrespectfully” to a woman, the fellows acquitted themselves quite well.
John Nada has made many comments that he does not understand some of the biases of older MRAs. Arguing with him that the ideas of those guys are better than his would be like an engineer arguing with a bumblebee trying to convince it that it really could not fly while it hovered in his face.
Take a look out on your streets at the diseased drunken slags that are these guys’ potential mates. That happened on our watch. Do ya really think we have all that much credibility with them when we lecture them on how to best shape an entire culture?
Bottom line, Harry – it’s Welmer’s site, not ours. He’s a lot closer to understanding what the men of the future are like than we are. I don’t even text. I don’t think there is much chance of “offending the good taste” of a culture which hangs on every tiny detail of the emotional roadkill of the lives of “John and Kate + 8.”
I asked Welmer if I could join his stable of authors, showed him my resume, and he graciously allowed me to post here. Nothing in the world could possibly bore me more than what is happening with Disney, but such things do interest younger men. If I can be the resident Asa Baber and toss in a few MRA thoughts for young men to leaf past while they are checking out the boobs, then great.
Guys like you and I have pretty well saturated whatever market there is for our schtick. Young men, for the most part, don’t give a rat’s rectum about what guys like us have to say. We are of the generation that spawned Mike Nifong, and most of the judges, social workers, and other social carrion-feeders who have been fixtures in their lives.
If Welmer wants to use controversy to build buzz for the site, and let people mix it up, that’s his call. It’s his site. He shoveled the gravel to build it. Take all the “serious” older MRAs in the world, and all our real supporters who have actually done anything, and we wouldn’t fill a small movie theatre. What we seem to do better than we do anything else is form circular firing squads. If he loses all of us and gains 1,000 young men who are even a little bit more clued in than the average man of our generation, that is probably a net gain.
His site, his call. If it goes down in flames, maybe he will start another one and do something differently. He certainly can’t do much harm to the reputation of MRAs in general with tinfoil hat types like Henry Makow among us.
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“If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.”
– Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Whitney v. California, 1927
The attribution of variations on the shorter “The remedy for bad speech is not less speech, but more speech,” to Jefferson appears to be apocryphal.
Doesn’t make it any less true, though.
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@Ferdinand
“Only the cowardly fear fools.”
I don’t fear them. I just don’t want to see our talented authors wasting precious time on them, and I don’t see why we should allow them to sully what could so easily be an excellent long term magazine for men.
Do we really want this playground stuff round here?
@Welmer
Yes, I hope you are right, that it will all die down.
But my experience tells me otherwise. Unless you block them, they will, eventually, begin to wander in when they are feeling hostile towards us, and they will disrupt us. And then they will have a good laugh about it as they keep 5 or 6 MRAs chasing after each one of them.
At the moment, Spearhead is young. But, should it become popular, believe me, they will descend in droves just for fun. And you will have to turf them out eventually.
But, hey, I could be hopelessly wrong.
Maybe times are changing.
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Akismet is the shotgun I keep behind the counter. It will do the job when needed.
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I wish it were true that speaking the truth would win over those who hear lies, but that’s just not the world we live in*. In our new feminized society feelings trump reason. It doesn’t matter how well reasoned and logical your arguments are, or how much evidence you have, if they contradict a principle of the conventional wisdom then it runs right through a persons ears without evoking anything but blind outrage. I hope this magazine can at least help open the eyes of those who are ready, but most of the world (including the men) can’t handle the truth.
* My motto – If you’re not cynical, then you’re not paying attention.
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@Zed
“Bottom line, Harry – it’s Welmer’s site, not ours. He’s a lot closer to understanding what the men of the future are like than we are. ”
I agree. I was just offering my advice. Something that I am prone to do.
@Acksiom
“If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.”
Indeed. But I not suggesting that we don’t speak, am I?
I am suggesting that we keep our speech round here as elevated, as warm and as pleasant as possible. And we will surely have enough arguments with each other without having to keep countering offensive remarks about our testacles – from people who are just here to disrupt us.
But if you guys want to spend some of your time, your space and your efforts dealing with people who turn up here to insult us, FINE.
I DO understand how you think that this might bring in an audience and also further the cause.
And I have no legitimate complaints about this attitude.
I was just hoping that this magazine would be different.
I would also suggest that the quick rise in its popularity is precisely because this is what other people thought too.
@Ferdinand
You can really hit those feminists hard. I’ve seen you do it.
I LOVE IT.
But you do it best when you are authoring a piece, not chasing around some stupid insulting troll who is just waving a red flag in front of you, to taunt you.
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Oh no. First Whoopi Goldberg defending Roman Polanski, now Brent Spiner……
I don’t think I can watch TNG re-runs anymore…. and it is one of my 3 favorite TV shows ever.
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Welmer,
You don’t have a sitemeter visible. Where can we track the traffic?
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I agree with Obsidian, as I often do. On In Mala Fide, I have written about how people like Harry, however well-intentioned, are the reason the MRA movement has amounted to a big fat zero up till now.
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Actually, many SciFi fans, being lesser Betas and Omegas, and working in setting where the male:attractive female ratio might be 10:1 or worse, are extremely vulnerable to female shaming language, and white-knighting.
The less experience one has with women, the more they are likely to think attacking other men to get a pat on the head from women is the way to get laid. SciFi fans are one example of this, and socialcons are another.
Star Trek lost out because it became feminized. Each series was successively more feminized than the last, and thus dwindled in quality. TNG > DS9 > VGR > ENT. I stopped watching around the DS9 phase.
This is also why such a large and successful franchise cannot muster up the will to do a new TV series that boldly goes into the 25th century. The storyline possibilities are many, as are the vast number of cameo opportunities for 24th and even 23rd century actors/characters. But there is no such TV series forthcoming, because Star Trek has been feminized, making sure that quality will be low.
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I’m not a fan of blocking dissent, but 90% of the comments posted on the Sci-Fi article were not dissent – they were outright abuse. I would have liked to have read the more thoughtful comments without wading through so much rubbish, and the rubbish could easily have been filtered by some simple commenting rules, e.g.
1) no references to small penises
2) no references to living with mom/in the basement/glued to a computer all day
3) wipe anything that initmates you’re gay or can’t get laid
I’ve probably missed some obvious others, but these 3 rules alone would eliminate a lot of vitriolic and pointless chaff.
If the feminine penchant for ad hominem is treated as abuse and eliminated, then the quality of the commenting would have been higher.
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You guys have to keep in mind that this site is new, and it will take me a little while to learn how to run this smoothly. I didn’t really put much thought into commenting guidelines until recently, and then I wasn’t prepared for this burst on the sci-fi thread. Whatever the case, now we know better how to deal with it.
Actually, you’d be surprised how little work it takes to calm a thread down when you start to get the hang of it. The guidelines I have now have proven to be sufficient.
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The MRA are not likely to end up anything big until it’s views hit the mainstream. The internet makes that easier, but until people can trust what’s written here and at other MRA blogs it’s not going to happen. How you get people to trust a newsource? I don’t have clue how to make that happen.
The other thing it’s getting MRA views into colleges. The next group of elites that rule western civ are all indoctrinated in our universities. Without MRA type people on those campuses teaching the young I doubt anything will ever come of it.
I am not trying to be a downer, but that’s how the world works.
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Obsidian:
I note with great interest that the lady w/the WOW ex hubbie hasn’t actually addressed either Pro Male’s argument or mine. Yet she manages to go all personal which has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread.
Classical Feminist Debating 101.
Which, as we all know, doesn’t work.
Au contraire. In matters of social philosophy, “movements”, “isms”, propaganda and whatnot, logic and reason often take a backseat to persuasiveness — a persuasiveness which often has nothing to do with the facts of the matter.
Pay very close attention to this classic exchange between Nick Taylor and a naive young idealist in the movie “Thank You For Smoking”:
Nick Taylor: OK, let’s say that you’re defending chocolate, and I’m defending vanilla. Now if I were to say to you: ‘Vanilla is the best flavour ice-cream’, you’d say…
Joey Naylor: No, chocolate is.
Nick Naylor: Exactly, but you can’t win that argument… so, I’ll ask you: so you think chocolate is the end all and the all of ice-cream, do you?
Joey Naylor: It’s the best ice-cream, I wouldn’t order any other.
Nick Naylor: Oh! So it’s all chocolate for you is it?
Joey Naylor: Yes, chocolate is all I need.
Nick Naylor: Well, I need more than chocolate, and for that matter I need more than vanilla. I believe that we need freedom. And choice when it comes to our ice-cream, and that Joey Naylor, that is the defintion of liberty.
Joey Naylor: But that’s not what we’re talking about
Nick Naylor: Ah! But that’s what I’m talking about.
Joey Naylor: …but you didn’t prove that vanilla was the best…
Nick Naylor: I didn’t have to. I proved that you’re wrong, and if you’re wrong I’m right.
Joey Naylor: But you still didn’t convince me.
Nick Naylor: It’s that I’m not after you. I’m after them.
[points into the crowd]
We shouldn’t start patting ourselves on the back just yet merely because we have rigorous arguments.
I agree with whoever said we need to start appropriating some of the weasly logical fallacies used by feminists if – and ONLY if — we really are serious about changing hearts and minds. It’s the only thing that is going to work. Most of the masses are not rational actors.
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You guys made Jezebel, too:
http://io9.com/5381793/is-science-fiction-feminized-or-is-it-sexist-both
Congrats.
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@Globalman
Ok, I will research, but I’m an skeptic for nature.
To the subject:
I said before that besides spammers and insults you can’t ban people and I still stand it. If they want their point of view heard, they will have to put it in a concise, coherent and non-insulting way. Period.
If they can’t do it, then reading their comments is just a waste of our time. And, besides a little background, ban those who entire argument is based on how they feel. Is not like that is productive at all and also, nobody will miss their white knights.
No male gives a crap about Disney, is mostly “childish” stuff, but Marvel is a paragon of the right way of masculinity, courage, honor, self-sacrifice, superation, frendship, honesty, etc, instead of the bad boys, abusives and borderline alcoholics that make vaginas wet.
Disney is leaded for a gay man that, at buying Marvel, will inevitably destroy everything that represented for appealing to females and other gays. Just like Battlestar Galactica. That is the problem. That’s why we care.
And really, you develop a nice chunk of cynism and thick skin when you are on the Internet for a while, and we need to be prepared for a thick round of shit coming on our way, but we don’t have to tolerate it in our place. Part of handling a blog is to know when a comment is productive and when it isn’t and act accordingly. That’s true for every blog on the Internet.
Finally, women are emotional beings. We can’t expect that most of them will act in a logical way when confronted. Although is expected, it means that almost none of them will be heard in here. Not many will do something besides noise.
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I find the hysterical reaction to this post hilarious, and look forward to more. Also, fuck Brent Spiner: what a pathetic excuse for a man.
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One basic fact that every boy should be taught is :
Women’s view of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ depend almost entirely on the status (in their eyes) of the perpertrator in question.
Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and John Edwards are defended by a surprising number of women. The same women don’t seem to care about men ruined through false rape accusations like the Duke Lacrosse team.
When you argue with a woman about how homes do not always rise in value, and that having a mortgage is merely renting money from the bank, rather than ‘owning’ a home, women will say that the argument is ‘stupid’. It is not ‘stupid’ in terms of logic, but ‘stupid’ in that it will cost you friends to believe such things. Women, being cliquey, would consider having unpopular opinions the height of stupidity. Merely showing her mathematical realities in an excel spreadsheet is meaningless by comparison.
Thus, every boy (and man) should be taught that the moral compass (or lack thereof) of a woman leads her to judge right or wrong based on WHO did it, not WHAT was done.
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Another challenge that will arise is that the abuse from feminists and manginas/socialcons will lead to moderation that takes up a lot of Welmer’s and others’ time, leading to fewer articles written.
We will have to adapt to that reality as well. Fortunately, the multi-author model here is good, as we are guaranteed at least 7-10 articles a week.
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Thanks, LILGRL. Got more attention than I expected for sure.
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The Jezebel article was not an extreme screechy screed like I was expecting, but that could be because my expectations were so low.
However, she said three times that Spearhead is a ‘radical right wing’ blog, a ‘conservative’ blog, extreme this, extreme that, etc. This will be their standard attempt to ‘kookify’ the work done here.
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Of course. These people can see only in black and white — they have no idea.
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On reading the twitter dialog of Brent Spiner, I don’t think he read the article : another commenter on twitter asked him about ‘what do you think about asshats who say women don’t belong in SciFi’.
That was a loaded question, and misrepresented what PMAFT said. So Brent Spiner is reacting to misinformaton, not to the actual article.
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Tupac,
Yes, I hear what you’re saying, BUT, I think that’s a bad idea. Arguing to persuade, while seductive and the quick and easy path, is in fact, a house of cards, that can and will eventually come tumblin down under the weight of its own BS. Debaters who argue to persuade more often than not do so BECAUSE they lack a more solid argument that is reason-based-hence the film you cited. Thank You For Not Smoking is a cautionary tale of the dangers of Pro BS artists if anything, and this situation is no different.
No Tupac, if anything, the Manosphere should be known for its sharp wit, rhetorical agility and reasoning that’s more solid than granite. Ferdi made a powerful point in citing the recent Jezebel Invasion at Roissy’s site in response to his Sodini post-more than a thousand posts, and virtually NONE of them actually taking on the key points Roissy made! If that ain’t a Case Study in just how intellectually and dare I say it, morally bankrupt, the modern day Feminist movement is, that was it, in their own words.
And, we should keep exposing them, just like that, Tupac. That’s why I hope Welmer actually lets the vitriol and sheer bile spew forth from these frauds, so it can be recorded for all prosterity, for this is what we have slouched to as a society. I pray and hope that we continue to keep putting out hard hitting, well crafted content, designed to provoke thought and piss off those who would take issue with us-not because we are fundamentally wrong-if that were the case they would have been done proved that right?-but because we are fundamentally RIGHT-AND THEY KNOW IT.
So, no, Tupac. Let our adversaries wallow in the mire, and fumble in the darkness.
And let us Shine a Light…
Holla back
The Obsidian
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That was beautiful Obsidian. Really moving.
But, as you say:
Ferdi made a powerful point in citing the recent Jezebel Invasion at Roissy’s site in response to his Sodini post-more than a thousand posts, and virtually NONE of them actually taking on the key points Roissy made! If that ain’t a Case Study in just how intellectually and dare I say it, morally bankrupt, the modern day Feminist movement is, that was it, in their own words.
This is my point. These feminists — idealogues, really — are immune to logic or reason. It is just another FAITH for them. Tey brook no dissent.
How often do you hear of a man of God losing his religion due to an intellectual argument? Almost never. When it happens, it’s because something REAL happened in that person’s life. Not because some militant atheist bombarded him with Facts and Logic.
Humans are not computational machines. They are driven by emotion and use logic to backwards rationalize their choices. Only idiot autistic libertarians and Randroids believe otherwise.
No, you will not convince the Jezebelers through reasoned debate. They have their echo-chamber, and we have ours.
The lost souls who are reachable are the unsophisticated, un-intellectual women who go along with it because they don’t know any better. The BALLAST, if you will. The same goes for the deluded manginas who are not actively involved in the movement but go along in the misguided belief it will get them pussy. THOSE are the people that might be persuaded. It wouldn’t surprise me if a few of those manginas secretly read Roissy and have silently changed their opinions about women. THAT’S the kind of change I can believe in.
I’m not sure what the proper course of action is at this point. But I do know that we need more Roissys who raze cultural shibboleths in a funny, engaging way that the younger generation can appreciate. The oldster MRA’s who are slightly out of touch culturally should be limited to the intellectual and theoretical heavy lifting — behind the scenes.
In this propaganda war, the footsoldiers and forward observers should be the no-holds-barred, witty, hip, Roissyists who can utilize the shaming tactics of the feminists and turn it against them. Giving them a dose of their own medicine.
Just my 2 cents
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While I agree with the content of the article about sci-fi. I DO think that the hateful rhetoric on the site needs to be toned down.
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Tupac,
I think yo may have misunderstood my position.
I couldn’t care less about convincing or converting the Jezebel crowd; in fact, I truly do hope they have the backbone to go down with their rapidly sinking ship.
What I want to do is expoe their bile, their insanity, their utter intellectually bankrupt positions-I want them stripped bare for all to see and for all time to witness. Truth crushed to the earth always rises again, and as the great Abe Lincoln said so well:
You can fool all of the people some of the time
Some of the people all of the time
But never all the people, all the time.
Time is running out on the Big Lie, Tupac. And the other side knows it.
All we need to do, is give em a little push, lol.
That’s why I favor keeping our ish on the straight and narrow, both to serve as a compelling counterpoint to them, but also to stress the point that reason, matters. No, not to the exclusion of anything else-but merely to say, hey, we’re all reasonable people here; at some point Reality has to be given some love.
I am so glad that no one here knocks any of the real and legitimate gains Women have made, present company included. We are dealing with principled arguments, and should not allow ourselves to be sullied by the bottomfeeding the other side does.
Now, having said that, I’m all for injecting heavy does of politically incorrect humor into what we do, and you best believe I’m all about working that Rhetorical Jiu-Jitsu on the opposition. But I want us to have fundamentally rock solid positions, Tupac-that, at the end of the day, no self-respecting thinking person could possibly refute what we’re saying.
And as you’ve brought him up, Roissy is an excellent case in point-for all the handwringin and harangues on the part of his detractors, the FACT remains that NOT ONE of them have actually refuted Roissy’s key positions on the issues. That, and the fact that he has since developed a loyal following among Women, says to me that those who thinking, caring individuals can indeed be swayed, or at the least, they can’t really knock what his/our positions are.
To use an important Game concept Tupac, we have to have excellent Frame Control here-let’s keep our game on above the rim, and let the Haters hate.
The Obsidian
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Please be specific, JD. We are always open to fair criticism.
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Welmer’s instincts were right. Short of clearing the most abusive and vulgar of posts, no other action is needed (at least for now).
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JD – I also don’t get what hateful rhetoric you are talking about. Certainly not from the main articule authors. Yes we do have a few “Stage 2″ commenters, but if I had my 4 kids taken away, I probably would stay in that stage for a while too.
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hilarious! when fembot sci fi nerds attack.
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I CHALLENGE YOU
I challenge all of you to demonstrate the powers of your activism by reading about Kevin Driscoll here, …
http://bendobserver.com/
… and then emailing your outrage and/or pleadings to the media people who are listed therein and who might be able to help.
And make sure that Spearhead is mentioned in your emails.
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@Zed
You make a lot of salient points. I have said my two cents worth, and of course I am tempted to respond to some of the stuff about MND as it wasn’t entirely complete, but better for me, for all of us, to just hope that this site becomes a major voice in the movement, and to support that where I can.
There is great stuff here. I like almost everything I have read so far and that certainly stimulates ideas for my own work. I may not post a lot here if it keeps boiling down to conflict, but I will read a lot, advise my readers of it’s presence and hope that it kicks ass and takes names for a long time to come.
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Angry Harry is absolutely right: we must have strict rules on commenting. Not based on sex or viewpoints, but based on the content of the comment. If it doesn’t add anything meaningful, it must be deleted.
Sometimes it can be funny to read stupid or shaming comments but on the long run it’s devastating. Eventually everyone will get tired of those.
Many people (inculding me) only read a certain number of comments, and those better be good. If I look at the first 10 comments and 8 of them are sh*te, I wont read on and might miss some really good ones.
The “hall of shame” for comments is a good idea though. It could be very useful for anyone who wants to see what shaming language is. The most idiotic comments should not be deleted but moved to the hall of shame.
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I read Scalzi’s blog for a while after I read Old Man’s War, but in due course his attitudes and douchebag treatment of his commenters turned me off. On top of everything else, he turned into a dipshit Obot. That kinda stupidity, I don’t need to read, and needless to say I’m not going to reward someone who irritates me by buying his books.
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Puma:
Rhetoric like this:
“blue pill-taking, politically correct, indoctrinated and brainwashed commenters only too eager to spit out their Pavlovian-conditioned, pre-programmed responses to any conveyed idea that runs counter to the mainstream, Gyno-centric cultural values of our BraveNewWorldOrder.”
Bombastic and hyperbolic language full of catch phrases.
However most of the hateful rhetoric I’m talking about comes not from the authors, but from comments left by the readers.
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@JD
Most of that was stirred up by the antics of juvenile trolls. I put a lid on them and things have started to calm down.
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Acksiom
Masturhation?
“For example, “Feminists are prone to masturhating to their fantasies about men, much as leftists like to masturhate to their fantasies about their political opponents. They will frequently masturhate publicly online in blog entries, and even engage in mutual masturhation.”
I think that this is an absolutely brilliant word to use.
We must try to work it into our everyday use of language somehow – before we forget about it.
Masturhation Masturhation Masturhation Masturhation
I’m going to try to keep saying it so that it becomes part of my vocab.
The feminists will positively HATE it. LOL!
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Scalzi’s a leftist. He believes very strongly that he knows what other people should be thinking better than they do. Don’t buy his books.
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“blue pill-taking, politically correct, indoctrinated and brainwashed commenters only too eager to spit out their Pavlovian-conditioned, pre-programmed responses to any conveyed idea that runs counter to the mainstream, Gyno-centric cultural values of our BraveNewWorldOrder.”
Bombastic and hyperbolic language full of catch phrases.
Bombastic and hyperbolic? Sure…but not inaccurate either.
That certainly describes the near conformity of opinion expressed in commenter after commenter. The manifestation of groupthink and the similarities in tactics (all shaming language couched in a expressed attitude of female supremacy) certainly points towards an almost hive-mind mentality…one deliberately engineered by a mass media culture and public education warped generation.
Indeed, to criticize a feminist paradigm, than have a large group of believers in that paradigm all respond on such a uniform manner certainly resembles Pavlov’s dogs salivating at the sound of a bell…
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Ya’ll sure seem to hate women a lot. Most guys don’t. It might be time well spent to pause and think about this.
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Scalzi’s a leftist. He believes very strongly that he knows what other people should be thinking better than they do. Don’t buy his books.
Or read them via your local library, or buy them used. That’s what I do. The guy actually can write a fair stick, story-wise.
I think that this is an absolutely brilliant word to use.
Thank you, Harry. I did think of it on my own just yesterday, but I’m not the first; it has at least one entry in the Encyclopedia Dramatica for a similar although much more limited meaning.
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@Randy
Time for the women and white-knighting creeps like you to think about it.
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Ya’ll sure seem to hate women a lot.
Actually, that says a lot more about your personal perceptual and conceptual filters than it does about objective reality.
It’s almost certainly time much better spent for you to pause and think about that.
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Randle,
You are speaking from a position of no real-world experience with women. We, on the other hand, have a lot more than you.
So what seems like ‘hate’ to you is merely your own projection onto others.
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Why did you not allow my comment? Are you afraid Brent Spiner or Paramount will shut down your blog for misusing his name and copyright material?
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Nope.
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But just the same you didn’t allow my first comment, pointing you to the fact that you misused Brent Spiner’s and Data’s names and violated copyrights. That’s so wrong.
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@Novalis
You are about to be deleted under the “Bullshit” provision of the commenting policy.
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Why is it BS when I say you misused Brent Spiner’s name willfully? I saw other comments saying the same, and that Spiner has done nothing to you. That’s double standards.
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Spiner/Data called us “asshats” on Twitter. If he wants to go to court to demand that we not expose his twatty tweet, he’s free to do so. But the best he could do is get me to delete one photo, which is arguably covered under fair use.
I think he’s got better things to do, but maybe I’m wrong… In the meanwhile, I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for Spiner or Paramount to give a rat’s ass.
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Brent Spiner called ‘YOU’ nothing, he reacted to one of his follower’s tweets on Twitter. He had no idea about anything YOU do here. The use of his tweet taken out of context is wrong, so is the use of his image or that of Data.
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Let him stew, as manginas are wont to do.
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Right. So stuff that is in the public domain is off limits due to you fucking moronic jackass PC police?
Fuck you. Your revolution is going to come to an end. Bastards. Fucking bastards.
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As Roissy said this is hilarious. I am perceiving a lot of pent up sexual tension among all these “fembot, sci-fi nerds”. I guess all those high tech geeks aren’t quite doing it for them? Women who are deprived sexually will turn into the bitchiest creatures on the face of the earth.
I see many new sexual opportunities among the female sci-fi nerd crowd. They are obviously ripe for the picking. Oh yes…a veritable pussy buffet, a new territory to be conquered. Tomorrow I begin my march through this uncharted land.
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Can’t we just discus this as grown-ups, without any swearing? I thought BS-ing was not allowed on this blog. All I said was, that it is wrong to mis/use someone’s words and use copyrighted material both taken out of context to the actual issues here. Public domain material is stil not allowed to be misappropriated I’m sure even the blog owner recognises.
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Very good observation. Roissy and PMAFT have been writing about how we’ll all have sexbots in short order, but if you analyze the frustrations of all our little scifi femtrolls, it’s pretty clear that they really want to be the sexbots. This is really why they were so offended — they don’t want to be excluded from the post-battle sexual action.
I tell you guys, there’s nothing that reminded me so much of a Chinese hooker bar as the bar on DS9. This is really where the scifi girls want to be. And the hilarious thing is that guys like John Scalzi think they are some kind of pimps for having access to these women. Very funny.
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@Welmer
I don’t understand you guys who want sexbots rather than the real thing.
Having sex with a sexbot will be like listening to ‘emotional’ music being created and composed by a computer.
You can pretend that it has meaning, but it doesn’t.
Better than no music at all, I suppose.
But not as good as the real thing.
And also, when you get it to do the housework while you read the newspaper, where is the joy in that?
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Hey, Harry,
I never said I wanted sexbots. It’s just been something guys have been posting about for some time. To be honest with you, I can’t really imagine them doing anything for me.
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Harry, only the fetishists want sexbots instead of the “real” thing.
The market for sexbots will be the gameless AFCs (Average Frustrated Chumps) who have to randomly flail around into having comparatively less satisfying sex with real women.
Most of the people seriously discussing it at this point want the effects on women that sexbots will provide once women have to compete for men’s interest and attention against a veritable pageant of virtual women, due to appearance and behavior modules that can be installed on neutral base models.
Many sexbots will not be designed and constructed to match real women as closely as possible. They will be designed and constructed to be as superior to real woman as possible.
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But if the AFC’s weren’t getting laid in the first place, what difference would it make?
This all sounds like pipe dreaming to me.
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Ah, wait. I think I know how to explain it productively.
Sexbots are the next evolution of porn.
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@Acksiom
“Sexbots are the next evolution of porn.”
Ha! I get it now.
Good idea!
And this sounds pretty good too! … “They will be designed and constructed to be as superior to real woman as possible.”
I think I’m coming round to the idea.
I could have three!
LOL!
@Welmer
“I never said I wanted sexbots. … To be honest with you, I can’t really imagine them doing anything for me.”
Are you crazy? (I’ve change my mind since I last spoke.)
LOL!
But what we really need, in my view, is more real females than males. The effect of this on women, vis-a-vis competition for men, will be the same as with the arrival of sexbots.
Millions of sexbots and millions of surplus women will, of course, horrify someone-whose-name-I-will-not-mention. But, for the rest of us, the future looks rosy indeed.
So, IMHO, we should go along with the feminists who want to reduce our numbers.
Just don’t let them go too far!
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That’s exactly what it is, the new incarnation of porn. And porn hasn’t done a damn thing to change the male/female dynamic in this or any other country.
I’m sorry to rain on everyone’s high-tech parade, but pinning your hopes on something like this is just setting yourself up for a major disappointment.
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@Welmer, Fifth Horseman
Fidelbogen has some more on Kevin Driscoll …
http://tinyurl.com/yl8xc2s
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Most of the people seriously discussing it at this point want the effects on women that sexbots will provide once women have to compete for men’s interest
Yes. But I maintain that 3-D/VR holograms with tactile interfaces will happen before sexbots. Same effect, though.
They will be designed and constructed to be as superior to real woman as possible.
Yes. Thank god some more people are getting it.
No one thinks a sexbot matches a real woman *of the same tier*. Keep in mind that I am a very serious practitioner and mentor of Game. But since most men cannot get real 10s, but rather are stuck with real 5s, 6s, and 7s, an artificial 10 is more than competitive against real 5s, 6s, and 7s.
This will force women to compete on the ability to provide LOVE, the only thing technology cannot duplicate. In other words, women will have to learn their own version of Game.
The golden prophesy is :
Real 10 > Artificial 10 > Real 7.
Guess what happens to the women below the level of the product that can be mass-produced?
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Harry,
The core of the Kevin Driscoll issue is that the accuser, and the police, have no penalty for the false allegation and persecution. If there was some risk to them, they would desist.
I mean, what options do we have if we want to tighten the screws on the evildoers (and they ARE evildoers)?
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Harry,
“Local prosecutor Jody Vaughan….”
I think we know why the evidence is not being considered in Kevin Driscoll’s case.
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This will force women to compete on the ability to provide LOVE, the only thing technology cannot duplicate.
Duplicate, no; but simulate. . . ?
Possibly. And I suspect competitively so against real women in that market as well.
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“This will force women to compete on the ability to provide LOVE, the only thing technology cannot duplicate.”
Sure, unless they’re all too busy shagging their own Brad Pitt clones to bother. Remember, capitalism recognizes no gender, it’s all about who can pay for what.
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21Guns,
“unless they’re all too busy shagging their own Brad Pitt clones to bother. ”
Hmm. Good point. I don’t think many of us could compete with Brad Pitt and his ilk.
But, 21 Guns, we know that men are ‘expendable’ in many ways, and that this tends to cause them to be treated badly. Also, we know that technology is gradually replacing their muscles and their brains. As such, it surely would be better if we could just tweak the numbers so that there was a surplus of women.
I seriously think that both men and women and, hence, our world, would benefit from such a tweaking.
I find it hard to think of who would not benefit from such a thing.
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unless they’re all too busy shagging their own Brad Pitt clones to bother. ”
No. The sexual attraction of women is much harder to duplicate via technology than men. Furthermore, the engineers in charge won’t even know what drives female attraction.
The engineers will make male sexbots, which will have much demand among women as the ratio between female strippers vs. male strippers.
Gay men would buy the male sexbots, not women.
The Roissy article explains this. I have little to add beyond that.
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@5th Horseman:
“No one thinks a sexbot matches a real woman *of the same tier*. Keep in mind that I am a very serious practitioner and mentor of Game. But since most men cannot get real 10s, but rather are stuck with real 5s, 6s, and 7s, an artificial 10 is more than competitive against real 5s, 6s, and 7s. ”
***
LOL, you’re kidding, right?
Sure your theory works in a vacuum, but it holds about as much water as a sieve in the real world. Acksiom and 21Guns nailed it. VR technology is just the evolution of porn.
While I respect that technology has and will continue to make quantum leaps with regard to sexual play, you seem to keep ignoring a little wild card called, “humanity”. That’s like jumping up and down trying to fly but ignoring a little thing called gravity.
And any man CAN get any 10 in the world. Why? Because beauty is SUBJECTIVE OVER TIME AND ACROSS CULTURES. So one man’s woman may be a mud duck as far as you’re concerned. She just has to be a 10 to HIM.
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Furthermore, the engineers in charge won’t even know what drives female attraction.
Unless the companies who make these things have enough sense to hire female engineers. Don’t think they won’t. They’d have to be crazy to ignore such a huge taget market.
And that market does exist. I don’t have any hard numbers on hand to back this up, but I’m going to stick my neck out an venture to say that sex toy companies sell a lot more vibrators and dildoes than blowup dolls and Fleshlights.
On top of that, there is a whole lineup of Hollywood hunks that the manufacturers can copy. If they can do Jessica Alba, they can do, uh, whatever dude is hot right now. I don’t keep up with these things.
(On a side note, I can also see how individual celebrities could reap huge profits by liscensing out their images to the sex toy companies. Which is neither here nor there, but it’s another example that when there’s a buck to be made, people have no shame.)
I don’t want to sound as if I’m anti-sexbot here, I’m not. If it’s technologically viable, I’m all for it. But believing that this will somehow change the socio-sexual dynamic is laughably naieve.
Technology simply does not change the way humans relate to each other. Every time there’s a huge technological breakthough, people just add whatever it is to their daily lives, then go back to doing what they were doing before. Some new widget is not going to cause a massive paradigm shift.
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sorry about the spelling errors above. Forgot to mention, anyone who is really interested in this subject might want to read an excellent sci-fi short story called “The Portable Girlfriend” by Doug Tierney. It doesn’t exactly paint a rosy picutre.
http://darkplanet.basespace.net/fiction/pg.html
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Eh, porn has done a *lot* to change the male/female dynamic. A *lot*.
- porn leads some men to simply give up on women (see Dave Alexander)
- porn leads other men to have less sex with their wives and girlfriends because they begin to prefer porn (true story)
- porn impacts what people, men and women alike, think is “good sex”, what sexual “expectations” are, sets standards for physical appearance, and so on
Porn has had, and is continuing to have, a substantial impact on relations between men and women. VR/Sex-bots will be porn on steroids. All of the issues I’ve mentioned above will be bigger ones with VR, for example, because it will be that much closer to “the real thing”. The impacts that porn has had will be magnified.
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@Novaseeker:
“Porn has had, and is continuing to have, a substantial impact on relations between men and women. VR/Sex-bots will be porn on steroids”
***
I’m betting it’ll have about the same effect as space travel has had so far on international air travel. Yes, breakthroughs have happened. Yes, new avenues and frontiers will be explored but as 21Guns so astutely mentioned, aside from say Dennis Tito or Guy Laliberté porn even in VR form won’t cause a paradigm shift.
But hey, time will tell, right?
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I’ll stake my rep, as one of the Top 10 Futurists in the world, that it DOES have a big impact on sexual dynamics by 2020, and in favor of men, not women.
Time will tell soon enough.
The magic sentence is :
Real 10 > Artificial 10 > Real 7.
Unless the companies who make these things have enough sense to hire female engineers.
Surely you know that females are not good at articulating what females are attracted to. If they were, they would be endorsing Game (at least LTR Game) from the rooftops.
And any man CAN get any 10 in the world. Why? Because beauty is SUBJECTIVE OVER TIME AND ACROSS CULTURES.
Not really. Poll after poll on Game websites rates women, on a scale from 1-10, within a relatively narrow band. The std. deviation of ratings is not more than 1 point. Across races, too.
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Technology simply does not change the way humans relate to each other.
It absolutely does. Technology has had a huge impact on determining which men are high-status and which are not.
300 years ago, a man with great strength and swordfighting skills had much higher social status than a small, weak mathematical genius. This is due to the economic opportunities governed by technology.
Today, the former man might be a middling MMA contender, or who can’t reach the top, or a retired Army Ranger, while the latter might run a hedge fund and be worth $500M. Which has higher status, particularly after age 40?
Technology changes male status by a lot.
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- porn leads other men to have less sex with their wives and girlfriends because they begin to prefer porn (true story)
- porn impacts what people, men and women alike, think is “good sex”, what sexual “expectations” are, sets standards for physical appearance, and so on
Yes. Quite a few marriages have been adversely affected by this.
VR/Sex-bots will be porn on steroids. All of the issues I’ve mentioned above will be bigger ones with VR, for example, because it will be that much closer to “the real thing”.
Yes. And this is bad for society, but moreso for women. Too many men will simply drift into addiction, even without intending to, and will stop making an effort with the majority of women who are 7s or lower.
37 year old women will be uninteresting even to 60 year old men.
This is a further blow to the nuclear family. But women will finally bear the costs of feminism moreso than men.
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@5th Horseman:
“Not really. Poll after poll on Game websites rates women, on a scale from 1-10, within a relatively narrow band. The std. deviation of ratings is not more than 1 point. Across races, too.”
***
With a sample size of how many? Nevermind, that’s an unscientific poll at best. So you’ve staked your reputation (?) on trying to catch lightning in a bottle. No bookmaker in Vegas would take that bet.
I’d look to history to predict the future and Harlow’s rhesus monkey experiment in 1966 is a perfect example of why VR will never trump the real thing.
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is a perfect example of why VR will never trump the real thing.
Real thing with a woman of equal sex appeal? No.
Real thing with a woman of much lesser sex appeal (the bottom 95% of women)? Yes. At least enough to cause addition, leading to disengagement from dating. Why do men married to 6s go to strip clubs in Vegas, with 9 and 10 strippers?
Real 10 > Artificial 10 > Real 7. I can’t make it any simpler than that.
Time will tell. By 2020. Within 10 years, we will see what unfolds.
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The Fifth Horseman:
Well, I’m not one of the top ten anything anywhere, but I do know people and money, and when there’s money to be made, people can figure out damn near anything.
Surely you know that females are not good at articulating what females are attracted to.
What’s to articulate? All they have to do is copy the Hunk Of The Month. Sounds simple enough.
(Which gives me another idea: if the sexbots were all built as one basic model, with various plugins availlable to change their “skin” at the whim of the owner… well, the possibilites are endless. Neat!)
300 years ago, a man with great strength and swordfighting skills had much higher social status than a small, weak mathematical genius.
Point taken, but as you say, this change took 300 years to occur. You’re expecting a new gadget to have a profound effect on society in a mere 11 years time, and that’s just not realistic.
Besides, if we’re talking about sex, not relationships. Most women would rather marry the mathematician and bang the muscleman, so the muscleman is the model the sexbot manufacturers would use.
Novaseeker:
I get what you’re saying about porn having an effect on people, but it seems to be happening on an individual level, not a cultural one. If men were turning away from wives and girlfriends en masse in favor of porn, women would be screaming bloody murder about it. And I don’t mean whining on some little feminist blog, I mean editorials in every major media source. It would be big, big news.
But anyway, none of this is worth arguing about. As I said before, I’m not anti-sexbot, I’m just anti-believing-sexbots-are-going-to-change-society. I hate to see people waste precious mental energy on fantasies. If you want to see change, the time to act is NOW, not in some mythical future where machines solve your problems.
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“Real 10 > Artificial 10 > Real 7. I can’t make it any simpler than that.”
No need to get frustrated. You don’t have to make it simpler. You simply haven’t convinced me yet. Especially when arguing from a vacuum.
You’re ignoring large areas of the world where the shift HAS NEVER TAKEN PLACE. EMF as a technology is some 30 years behind.
Nevermind. Good luck with that.
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You’re ignoring large areas of the world where the shift HAS NEVER TAKEN PLACE. EMF as a technology is some 30 years behind.
I’m talking about 1st world dynamics. But then again…. look at mobile phone and Internet diffusion in even the poorest countries.
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Point taken, but as you say, this change took 300 years to occur. You’re expecting a new gadget to have a profound effect on society in a mere 11 years time, and that’s just not realistic.
Are you aware of the second derivative of accelerating change, and Moore’s Law? How many cycles of Moore’s Law happen in 11 years?
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@Welmer & Fifth Horseman
This text is from one of Kevin Driscoll’s friends, …
…
Kevin is 30 and is very sucessful. Kevin had been working with the Federal aviation Administration for over 8 years. He was a Electrical Engineer that worked on landing systems at the airport. Kevin was also attending college again to pursue a career as a medical doctor. He was planning on applying for medical school in the next few years. Since this all happened he lost his Job. The company from day one put him on leave until they gave it enough time so they can fire him. He has had to drop out of school because he is on house arrest. dont know if this blows his chance of ever getting into medical school. Hope not for his sake. He has had to pay for house arrest at the cost of $400 a month just so he can stay out of jail. I hear his house is going into forclosure and is going to lose it. His friends alienated him after seeing it on the news. I hear his negibors talk about him being the negiborhood rapist. This man did so much by the age of 30 its sad to see one women tear it all apart.
I know his mother gave up her job of 15 years and moved right in to kevins house because he could only be release with a ankle bracelet and Third party (His mom) I know his mom and kevin has dumped every penny they have. I talked to his mom and she just filed bankrupt and Kevin kevin is going to have to soon. I hear this is up around 50, 000 dollars so far.
…
And Fidelbogen has some more information today concerning Kevin Driscoll
http://counterfem.blogspot.com/
….
I, myself, am going to try to write a piece about this case on my website; because it makes me so angry to see what is happening to men out there simply because of an accusation – an accusation from a woman who APPEARS to be, IN MY VIEW, a slut. One who, it is said by some, regularly cheats on her husband and whose word cannot be trusted.
Fifth Horseman
“The core of the Kevin Driscoll issue is that the accuser, and the police, have no penalty for the false allegation and persecution. If there was some risk to them, they would desist.”
That’s right – which is why MRAs must do their best to ensure that the officials and the police have plenty to lose when they treat
accused men so disgustingly.
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That’s right – which is why MRAs must do their best to ensure that the officials and the police have plenty to lose when they treat
accused men so disgustingly.
So let’s DO something.
There are 5 bloggers I can think of that have discussed this sort of injustice in the past, three of whom are women :
Instapundit : pundit@instapundit.com
Dr. Helen (wife of Instapundit) : DrHelen@violentkids.com
Roissy : savorthetaste88@yahoo.com
Amy Alkon : AdviceAmy@aol.com
Ann Althouse : annalthouse@gmail.com
Write them a concise, one paragraph summary of why they should bring daylight to this issue.
——————————
But I am still unclear about why the County PERsecutor is pressing charges. What is her rationale? Does she know about the evidence in Kevin’s favor?
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This sexbot bullshit is a pipedream. We’ll have plastic surgeons on every corner turning 5s and 6s to perfect 10s long before sexbots are viable.
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We’ll have plastic surgeons on every corner turning 5s and 6s to perfect 10s
How will a plastic surgeon reduce 50 pounds of fat, add 5 inches of height, make hair lustrous, etc? That is a far more difficult technology than a 3-D/VR hologram with tactile and olfactory interfaces.
And even if what you claim happens (which it won’t), that is still the same effect – an increase in the supply of female beauty, reducing the exclusivity (and hence market value) of it, which thus favors men a lot.
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You know, I have no idea how this Virtual Reality Porn deal, and/or Sexbots ala Blade Runner is gonna turn out. Maybe it’ll go down just as TFH has predicted, maybe not, or somewhere in between. I just can’t call it.
But what I DO know, is that I got a life to live, and that includes having a Woman in my life. So, I have to work with what I have in terms of skills, talent, determination and current day tech and understanding. It is, what it is.
As for the whole false rape thing, again, you guys aren’t getting it. That’s coming from a whining place instead of an empowered one. If you got solid Game, you need not worry about getting into such situations, one, because you’ll be much better at screening out headcases sooner, and two, because you’ll be such a good seducer that the last thing on the gal’s mind is calling the cops on you. I mean really, you need to re-evaluate your whole situation, and take a hard, long look in the mirror, if you are that concerned with a gal trying to get you locked up for rape! Let Mike Tyson’s story be a lesson to you-if a Woman agrees to sleep with you, treat her like a lady, even if she’s a Two Dollar Ho. It ain’t killing you to show her a bit of kindness, take her to breakfast in the morning, and kiss her off. But if you’re one of those guys who’s idea of a seduction is to hump the first mentally shaky chick in the bar, while you’re both drunk, then kick her literally to the curb after you’ve hit it, then Hell yea you have to expect her to feel some kind of way about that. It doesn’t matter that she was looking like a Ho, was drunk as a fish, and so on. Its about the simple fact that you don’t have enough understanding that Women, even now in our time, RISK MORE TO HAVE SEX THAN WE DO. And we Men should be just a weebit respectful of that. She’s taking a big chance on you. Show her a lil love.
Dang.
The Obsidian
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The respect that I had for the Star Trek community seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird. Yet, it would be too much to expect rational logic from those who hang on the coattails of Spock wouldn’t it? Yet, Science Fiction is going to the women just like everything else today. More drama and less laser guns. See the recent Battlestar Galactica series as case in point and remember that Starbuck was male in the original.
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Regarding the possibilities of “sexbots” and beyond, this is an interesting short story:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/xu/failed_utopia_42/
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The SF Community is a different animal because none of this is new to them. They’ve been doing flame wars for about 100 years; some of which lasted for decades, and took place with a month between replies; hell some of them have moved from the realm of APAs, to the net.
And, for all that you may think the one-liners of shaming are the pith of it, the fact is they are good at it. They are used to a textual medium and they have patience (see above, decades of flaming).
They think (SF is a “thinky” genre). They talk to themselves. If you think the desire to point and laugh (which is what most of the one-liners are doing… it’s not that they are really convinced you have small penes, (look it up, that’s not a typo), and never get laid, it’s that you are so defensive (really… women should tailor how they act to see to it they, “feel good in his hands?” Fuck that noise. I want a woman to be comfortable in her skin. When she feels good to herself, she has all the other things that piece said she needs. If she doesn’t appeal to you, look for one who does; but don’t whine about it, a la, “there are lots of “real” women who aren’t put off by, “real” men. Right. If that’s the case, why the complaining about how women are failing to live up to your standards and desires? Methinks the laddies doth protest too much).
Because you are so defensive on that topic, it’s where they make mock. All in all, the reason people aren’t going to stick around, the reason you will get echo-chamber and drive-by comments ((which is all I’m likely to do) is the stuff you write is small beer.
Once the intial bit of outrage is gone, there’s no steak here; it’s all sizzle (well the Triumph piece is nice, but it doesn’t pretend to educate people on the sexes, so it doesn’t really count to the manifesto of the place). Why in the world should people who think you a trifle dim, a lot reactionary and completely pointless, spend time reading repetitions of the same tired nonsense?
That’s why the traffic will slow. It’s why one or two pieces, every so often, will get a lot of hits; and comments, and then it will go back to the usual sorts of MRA Wankery, with the insular sense of superiority and the lack of any real traction.
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@Amused
100% rubbish in my view.
However, I’m glad that you won’t be coming round here any more.
If you do, you will prove my first statement.
@Fifth Horseman
Thank you indeed for those email addresses. Much appreciated. It will save me some work. I will certainly do as you suggested once I have written my piece about the case.
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Lenny huh? Yeah right!……………
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Wow, I have never seen a comment as poorly written and as navel-gazing as “Amused”‘s, at least from those who seem to be capable of forming a cogent sentence. Vive la Marxisme!
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I understand the ubiquity of strong, ass kicking female characters in sci-fi: the average angry, wish-I-was-born-with-a-penis feminist sci-fi fan is desperate to fantasize about actually being able to compete with men in scientific and martial settings and come out on top. They are desperate for this fantasy because real life consistently (and hilariously) destroys their silly idols on a constant basis.
So let ‘em have it. I don’t care. I’m content with my Captain Picard and Han Solo (who played such a traditional, dominant, patriarchal role vis-a-vis Leia).
Traditional sci-fi was comprised of men reading/watching fictional accounts of other men doing cool stuff beyond their own personal abilities. Modern sci-fi is comprised of women reading/watching accounts of other women doing cool stuff beyond the abilities of women generally. Medieval/magical fantasy is not innocent of this same fantastical trend: just see the King Arthur flick a few years back, where Maid Marion somehow managed to fire a longbow (something that would require arms like tree trunks).
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